TEDxPortofSpain
Afra Raymond: Three myths about corruption
Afra Raymond: 关于贪腐的三个迷思
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得益于石油产业，特立尼达和多巴哥在上世纪70年代积累了大量财富。但在1982，一个令人震惊的事实被披露：三分之二的建设资金被浪费或挪用。这个问题让Afra Raymond一直萦绕心头。30年来持续揭露政府贪贪腐的他，给我们带来金融犯罪的全新视野。（tedxportofspain拍摄）
Afra Raymond - Transparency activist
A leading expert in the fields of property valuation and project management, Afra Raymond is battling the government corruption rampant in his country, Trinidad and Tobago. Full bio
A leading expert in the fields of property valuation and project management, Afra Raymond is battling the government corruption rampant in his country, Trinidad and Tobago. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:16
Okay, this morning I'm speaking
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好，今天早上我要讲的
00:18
on the question of corruption.
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是关于贪腐的问题。
00:21
And corruption is defined
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贪腐的定义是
00:23
as the abuse of a position of trust
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滥用自己被信任的职位
00:29
for the benefit of yourself -- or, in the case of our context,
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为了自己的私利，或者我今天讲的，
00:33
your friends, your family or your financiers.
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图利你的朋友， 你的家人或是你的投资者。
00:35
Okay? Friends, family and financiers.
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懂了吗？朋友，家人或投资者。
00:40
But we need to understand what we understand about corruption,
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但是我们需要了解
我们到底是如何理解贪腐的。
我们到底是如何理解贪腐的。
00:44
and we need to understand that
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而且我们要认识到，
00:47
we have been miseducated about it, and we have to admit that.
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在这个问题上我们一直是被教育误导的。
我们要承认这一点。
我们要承认这一点。
00:50
We have to have the courage to admit that
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只有有勇气承认这一点，
00:52
to start changing how we deal with it.
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才能开始改变我们对待它的方式。
00:54
The first thing is that the big myth, number one,
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第一件事，是个很大的迷思，
最大的一个。
最大的一个。
00:57
is that in fact it's not really a crime.
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即认为贪腐并不是真正的犯罪。
00:59
When we get together with friends and family
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当我们和亲朋好友一起，
01:01
and we discuss crime in our country,
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聊到国内的犯罪行为，
01:03
crime in Belmont or crime in Diego or crime in Marabella,
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在贝尔蒙特，迭戈
或是马尔贝拉的犯罪的时候，
或是马尔贝拉的犯罪的时候，
01:07
nobody's speaking about corruption.
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没有人会谈到贪腐。
01:08
That's the honest truth.
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这无疑是真实情况。
01:10
When the Commissioner of Police comes on TV to talk about crime,
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当警署的行政长官
在电视上说到犯罪的时候，
在电视上说到犯罪的时候，
01:13
he isn't speaking about corruption.
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他说的也绝不会是贪腐。
01:15
And we know for sure when the Minister of National Security
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然后我们也很确信，
国家安全部部长谈论犯罪的时候，
国家安全部部长谈论犯罪的时候，
01:17
is speaking about crime, he's not talking about corruption either.
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他也不是在说贪腐。
01:21
The point I'm making is that it is a crime.
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我想要强调的观点是：
贪腐就是犯罪。
贪腐就是犯罪。
01:24
It is an economic crime, because we're involving the looting of taxpayers' money.
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这是一种经济犯罪，
因为贪腐是在剥夺纳税人的钱。
因为贪腐是在剥夺纳税人的钱。
01:28
Public and private corruption is a reality.
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贪腐在公家机关和私营企业中都存在，
这是不争的事实。
这是不争的事实。
01:31
As somebody who comes from the private sector,
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作为来自私营企业的一员，
01:33
I can tell you there's a massive amount of corruption
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我可以告诉你这里有大量的腐败。
01:35
in the private sector that has nothing to do with government.
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我说的是和公家机关无关的企业内部贪腐。
01:38
The same bribes and backhanders and things that take place under the table,
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同样的贿赂，回扣，暗箱操作，
01:41
it all takes place in the private sector.
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在私营企业都存在。
01:43
Today, I'm focusing on public sector corruption,
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我把今天的焦点放在
政府部门的贪腐问题。
政府部门的贪腐问题。
01:47
which the private sector also participates in.
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私营企业也参与其中。
01:50
The second important myth to understand --
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第二个要澄清的迷思是——
01:52
because we have to destroy these myths,
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因为我们必须破除这些迷思，
01:54
dismantle them and destroy them and ridicule them --
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去除，破坏并唾弃他们——
01:57
the second important myth to understand
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第二个重要的迷思
01:59
is the one that says
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是这种说法：
02:01
that in fact corruption is only a small problem --
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贪腐实际上只是小问题。
02:04
if it is a problem, it's only a small problem,
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如果是有问题，
也微不足道。
也微不足道。
02:07
that in fact it's only a little 10 or 15 percent,
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影响可能是10%到15%。
02:10
it's been going on forever, it probably will continue forever,
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一直都有，说不定还会永远存在。
02:14
and there's no point passing any laws, because there's little we can do about it.
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就算立法规范也没意义，
因为我们拿它没办法。
因为我们拿它没办法。
02:18
And I want to demonstrate that that, too,
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我想举例指出，
02:20
is a dangerous myth, very dangerous.
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这些想法也是非常危险的迷思。
非常危险。
非常危险。
02:22
It's a piece of public mischief.
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我举的例子
是一场公共的闹剧。
是一场公共的闹剧。
02:25
And I want to speak a little bit,
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我想先讲一下背景，
02:27
take us back about 30 years.
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让我们回溯大概30年。
02:30
We're coming out today from Trinidad and Tobago,
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我们来自特立尼达多巴哥（Trinidad and Tobago），
02:32
a resource-rich, small Caribbean country,
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这是一个资源丰富，
但面积不大的加勒比海国家，
但面积不大的加勒比海国家，
02:35
and in the early 1970s we had a massive increase in the country's wealth,
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在20世纪70年代早期，
国家财富大量增加。
国家财富大量增加。
02:40
and that increase was caused by the increase in world oil prices.
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这得益于世界油价的增长。
02:43
We call them petrodollars. The treasury was bursting with money.
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我们称之为石油美元（petrodollars）。
那时国库爆满。
那时国库爆满。
02:46
And it's ironic, because
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然而很讽刺，
02:50
we're standing today in the Central Bank.
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我们今天站在中央银行。
02:52
You see, history's rich in irony.
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你们看，历史就是充满了讽刺。
02:54
We're standing today in the Central Bank,
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我们今天站在中央银行大楼里，
02:56
and the Central Bank is responsible for a lot of the things I'm going to be speaking about.
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中央银行这起闹剧的罪魁祸首，
接下来我会讲到这些。
接下来我会讲到这些。
02:59
Okay? We're talking about irresponsibility in public office.
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可以吗？
我们在政府机构谈论失职问题。
我们在政府机构谈论失职问题。
03:03
We're speaking about the fact that across the terrace,
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广场对面那栋大楼，
03:05
the next tower is the Ministry of Finance,
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是我们的财政部大楼。
03:08
and there's a lot of connection with us today,
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和我们今天的话题有很多关联性，
03:09
so we're speaking within your temple today. Okay?
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所以今天所谈论的是和你们戚戚相关的。好吗？
03:12
(Applause)
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（掌声）
03:17
The first thing I want to talk about is that
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我想说的第一件事情是，
03:19
when all of this money flowed into our country about 40 years ago,
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大约40年前，
当这些钱流入我国以后，
当这些钱流入我国以后，
03:23
we embarked, the government of the day embarked
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我们开始着手利用，当时的政府。
03:25
on a series of government-to-government arrangements
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他们签订了一系列的政府国际协定，
03:27
to have rapidly develop the country.
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使国家快速发展。
03:29
And some of the largest projects in the country
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国内有些最大的项目，
03:31
were being constructed through government-to-government arrangements
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是根据政府国际协定，
03:35
with some of the leading countries in the world,
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由一些先进国家来建设的。
03:36
the United States and Britain and France and so on and so on.
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美国，英国，法国，等等。
03:39
As I said, even this building we're standing in -- that's one of the ironies --
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就像我说的，甚至我们所处的这栋建筑,
它也是一个讽刺。
它也是一个讽刺。
03:42
this building was part of that series of complexes,
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这栋建筑
是那一系列复杂关系中的一部分，
是那一系列复杂关系中的一部分，
03:44
what they called the Twin Towers.
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他们叫它双子星大厦。
03:48
It became so outrageous, the whole situation,
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整个情况变得让人无法忍受，
03:51
that in fact a commission of inquiry was appointed,
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以至于我们任命了调查委员会。
03:54
and it reported in 1982, 30 years ago it reported --
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据1982年的报道，
30年前的报告，
30年前的报告，
03:58
the Ballah Report -- 30 years ago,
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叫Ballah报告—30年前，
04:01
and immediately the government-to-government arrangements were stopped.
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政府之间的协定立刻就被停止了。
04:05
The then-Prime Minister went to Parliament
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然后总理出席议会，
04:06
to give a budget speech, and he said some things that I'll never forget.
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做政府财政报告。
报告让我印象深刻，无法忘怀。
报告让我印象深刻，无法忘怀。
04:10
They went right in here. I was a young man at the time.
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当时他们就在此地。
那时我还是一个年轻人。
那时我还是一个年轻人。
04:12
It went right into my heart.
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演说直击我心。
04:13
And he said that, in fact — Let me see if this thing works.
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他说，事实上，
—让我看看这个能不能用
—让我看看这个能不能用
04:18
Are we getting a, yeah?—
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可以了吗？—
04:21
That's what he told us.
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他是这么说的。
04:23
He told us that, in fact,
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他告诉我们，事实上，
04:27
two out of every three dollars of our petrodollars
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我们的石油美金中，
三分之二的钱我们花掉的，
三分之二的钱我们花掉的，
04:30
that we spent, the taxpayers' money,
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纳税人的钱，
04:32
was wasted or stolen.
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是被浪费掉或者挪用了。
04:34
So the 10 or 15 percent is pure mischief.
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所以10%或者15%的说法完全是错的。
04:38
As we say, it's a nancy-story. Forget it.
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就像我们说的，它跟幼儿故事一样是骗人的。
别再相信了！
别再相信了！
04:40
That's for little children. We are big people,
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那是说给小孩听的，
我们都是成年人了。
我们都是成年人了。
04:42
and we're trying to deal with what's happening in our society.
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我们要试着去解决我们社会中存在的问题。
04:45
Okay? This is the size of the problem.
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ok？这才是问题的真实大小。
04:47
Okay? Two thirds of the money stolen or wasted.
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ok？三分之二的钱被挪用或浪费。
04:50
That was 30 years ago. 1982 was Ballah.
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那是30年以前。1982年Ballah。
04:53
So what has changed?
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那么状况有改变吗？
04:55
I don't like to bring up embarrassing secrets
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我不想泄露让人尴尬的机密，
04:57
to an international audience, but I have to.
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这里有很多外国观众。
但是我别无选择。
但是我别无选择。
05:00
Four months ago, we suffered a constitutional outrage in this country.
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四个月以前，
我们这个国家遭遇了宪法暴行。
我们这个国家遭遇了宪法暴行。
05:03
We call it the Section 34 fiasco, the Section 34 fiasco,
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我们称为 “34节的惨败”。
05:08
a suspicious piece of law, and I'm going to say it like it is,
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这是一段可疑的法律条文，
我实事求是的说。
我实事求是的说。
05:11
a suspicious piece of law
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可疑的法律条文，
05:12
was passed at a suspicious time
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它在可疑的时间通过，
05:14
to free some suspects. (Laughter)
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为了释放某些可疑的嫌疑人。（笑声）
05:16
And it was called, those people are called
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据说这些人们被称作，
05:23
the Piarco Airport accused.
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皮亚尔科机场（the Piarco Airport ）被告。
05:24
I'm going to have my own lexicon speaking here today.
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今天在这里我用自己的词汇来讲，
05:27
They are the Piarco Airport accused.
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他们叫做皮亚尔科机场被告。
05:29
It was a constitutional outrage of the first order,
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这是一级的宪法不公。
05:32
and I have labeled it the Plot to Pervert Parliament.
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我把它看作是国会堕落的阴谋。
05:36
Our highest institution in our country was perverted.
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我们国家的最高机关堕落了。
05:39
We are dealing with perverts here
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出于经济和财务天性，
05:41
of an economic and financial nature.
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我们在这里处理堕落问题。
05:43
Do you get how serious this problem is?
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你们能看出来问题有多严重吗？
05:45
There was massive protest. A lot of us in this room
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大规模的抗议，很多人在这间屋子里，
05:47
took part in the protest in different forms.
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以各种形式表达他们的不满。
05:49
Most importantly, the American embassy complained,
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最重要的是，
美国大使馆也开始抱怨，
美国大使馆也开始抱怨，
05:52
so Parliament was swiftly reconvened,
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以至于国会很快重新召开。
05:55
and the law was reversed, it was repealed.
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这条法律被推翻了，被废除了。
05:57
That's the word lawyers use. It was repealed.
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律师的说法是这样。被废除了。
05:59
But the point is
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但是重点是，
06:02
that Parliament was outwitted in the whole course of events,
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国会在整个事件中是被蒙蔽的，
06:05
because what really happened is that,
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因为事情的真相是，
06:08
because of the suspicious passage of that law,
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因为这条可疑法律的通过，
06:11
the law was actually passed into effect
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这条法律要在
06:13
on the weekend we celebrated our 50th anniversary of independence,
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我们庆祝50周年独立纪念的周末生效。
06:17
our jubilee of independence.
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独立纪念日。
06:18
So that is the kind of outrage of the thing.
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这是整个事件中最难容忍的部分。
06:20
It was kind of a nasty way to get maturation, but we got it,
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这似乎是用下流的手段达到目的，
但我们最终还是达到了。
但我们最终还是达到了。
06:24
because we all understood it,
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因为我们都能理解。
06:25
and for the first time that I could remember,
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而且记忆中是第一次
06:27
there were mass protests against this corruption.
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针对贪腐举行了大规模的抗议活动。
06:31
And that gave me a lot of hope. Okay?
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这让我充满希望。是吗？
06:33
Those of us who are, sometimes you feel like
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有时候你觉得
06:35
you're a little bit on your own doing some of this work.
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你微不足道，单打独斗，
06:38
That passage of the law and the repeal of the law
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这条法律的通过和废除，
06:41
fortified the case of the Piarco Airport accused.
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壮大了Piarco机场被告。
06:45
So it was one of those really superior double bluff kind of things that took place.
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所以事完全就是一桩彻头彻尾的欺骗。
06:50
But what were they accused of?
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但是他们被指控了什么？
06:52
What was it that they were accused of?
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他们到底被指控了什么？
06:53
I'm being a bit mysterious for those of you out there. What were they accused of?
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我好像有点在故弄玄虚。
他们犯了什么法？
他们犯了什么法？
06:56
We were trying to build, or reconstruct largely,
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我们大规模的建造，或者说是重建
06:59
an airport that had grown outdated.
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一座老旧的机场。
07:01
The entire project cost about 1.6 billion dollars,
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整个项目花费大约16亿
07:05
Trinidad and Tobago dollars,
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特立尼达和多巴哥币。
07:08
and in fact, we had a lot of bid-rigging
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而事实上，这个过程发生了很多虚假投标，
07:11
and suspicious activity, corrupt activity took place.
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可疑行为，贪腐。
07:14
And to get an idea of what it consisted of,
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如果要了解有哪些，
07:18
and to put it in context in relationship to this whole
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然后把它和我说的第二个迷思联系起来，
07:21
second myth about it being no big thing,
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“不是什么大问题”的迷思。
07:24
we can look at this second slide here.
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你们可以看第二张幻灯片。
07:26
And what we have here -- I am not saying so,
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这里说———不是我说的，
07:30
this is the Director of Public Prosecutions in a written statement. He said so.
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这是一个检察长在书面报告中写的。
是他说的。
是他说的。
07:35
And he's telling us that for the $1.6 billion cost of the project,
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他告诉我们在这16亿项目中，
07:39
one billion dollars has been traced
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有10亿被查到
07:42
to offshore bank accounts.
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在海外银行帐户。
07:43
One billion dollars of our taxpayers' money
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纳税人的钱有10亿，
07:45
has been located in offshore bank accounts.
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在海外银行帐户。
07:49
Being the kind of suspicious person I am,
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作为一个爱问问题的人，
07:51
I am outraged at that, and I'm going to pause here,
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气愤难平，容我暂停片刻。
07:54
I'm going to pause now and again and bring in different things.
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我想暂停一下，讲一些其他的事情。
07:56
I'm going to pause here and bring in something I saw
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我要讲一些我见到的事情。
07:58
in November last year at Wall Street. I was at Zuccotti Park.
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去年11月在华尔街，我在祖科蒂公园（Zuccotti Park），
08:02
It was autumn. It was cool. It was damp. It was getting dark.
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那时是秋天，天气凉爽潮湿。
快天黑的时候，
快天黑的时候，
08:06
And I was walking around with the protesters
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我经过一群抗议者。
08:08
looking at the One Wall Street, Occupy Wall Street movement walking around.
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看着参加“一个华尔街，占领华尔街”运动的人们
在周围走过，
在周围走过，
08:12
And there was a lady with a sign, a very simple sign,
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有位女士拿着一块牌子，非常简单的牌子，
08:14
a kind of battered-looking blonde lady,
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她是一位身型消瘦的金发女士。
08:17
and the sign was made out of Bristol board, as we say in these parts,
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牌子是用很好的纸板做的，
08:20
and it was made with a marker.
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用马克笔在上面写了字。
08:22
And what it said on that sign hit me right in the center.
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牌子上的话深深的打动了我。
08:24
It said, "If you're not outraged, you haven't been paying attention."
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它写说：
如果你并不觉得气愤，那是因为你漠不关心。
如果你并不觉得气愤，那是因为你漠不关心。
08:29
If you're not outraged by all of this, you haven't been paying attention.
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如果你对所有这些无动于衷，
那是因为你漠不关心。
那是因为你漠不关心。
08:32
So listen up, because we're getting into even deeper waters.
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所以仔细聆听，
因为我们说不定更堕落。
因为我们说不定更堕落。
08:36
My brain started thinking.
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我开始思考。
08:38
Well, what if --
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那么，如果—
08:41
because I'm suspicious like that. I read a lot of spy novels and stuff.
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不好意思，我生性多疑，
我读了很多的间谍小说什么的。
我读了很多的间谍小说什么的。
08:44
What if -- (Laughter)
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如果—（笑声）
08:46
But to make it in these wrongs,
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但要挑出这些刺，
08:48
you have to read a lot of spy novels
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你就要读很多间谍小说对吧？
08:50
and follow some of that stuff, right? (Laughter)
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还要按照间谍小说的思路走，对吧？（笑声）
08:52
But what if this wasn't the first time?
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如果不是第一次呢？
08:57
What if this is just the first time
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如果这些事情只是第一次
09:00
that the so-and-sos had been caught?
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被抓到而已呢？
09:02
What if it had happened before? How would I find out?
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如果以前就曾有过这种事呢？
我要怎么知道啊？
我要怎么知道啊？
09:07
Now, the previous two examples I gave
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好，我刚才的两个例子，
09:10
were to do with construction sector corruption, okay?
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是关于建设部门贪腐问题的，
09:14
And I have the privilege at this time
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目前，
09:16
to lead the Joint Consultative Council, which is a not-for-profit.
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我有幸作为非营利组织联合咨询委员会
(Joint Consultative Council)的负责人，
(Joint Consultative Council)的负责人，
09:19
We're at jcc.org.tt, and we have the -- we are the leaders
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我们的网站是jcc.org.tt，
09:23
in the struggle to produce a new public procurement system
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我们致力于创造一个新的公共采购系统，
09:26
about how public money is transacted.
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以监督公共财产运作。
09:28
So those of you interested in finding out more about it,
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如果各位有兴趣进一步了解，
09:30
or joining us or signing up on any of our petitions, please get involved.
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加入我们或联署我们的诉求，
不要犹豫。
不要犹豫。
09:34
But I'm going to segue to another thing that relates,
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我想转到另外一个相关的话题，
09:37
because one of my private campaigns I've been conducting
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我个人已进行超过三年半的
09:39
for over three and a half years
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一项私人活动。
09:42
is for transparency and accountability
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这项活动是为了
09:44
around the bailout of CL Financial.
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CL Financial疏困的透明化和问责制。
09:47
CL Financial is the Caribbean's largest ever conglomerate, okay?
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CL Financial 是加勒比海有史以来
最大的金融保险公司不是吗？
最大的金融保险公司不是吗？
09:52
And without getting into all of the details,
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如果不去追究细节部分，
09:55
it is said to have collapsed — I'm using my words very carefully —
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据说它破产了。—我很小心的使用措辞—
09:58
it's said to have collapsed in January of '09,
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2827
但是据说在2009年1月它破产了。
10:01
which is just coming up to nearly four years.
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才快要4年而已。
10:05
In an unprecedented fit of generosity --
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真是前所未有的慷慨。
10:08
and you have to be very suspicious about these people --
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而你必须对这些人保有怀疑，
10:10
in an unprecedented — and I'm using that word carefully —
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前所未有的慷慨。
10:13
unprecedented fit of generosity, the government of the day
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—我很小心的使用这样的措辞。
10:17
signed, made a written commitment, to repay all of the creditors.
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政府签署文件，立下书面承诺，要帮债权人还债。
10:20
And I can tell you without fear of contradiction
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我可以负责任的说，
10:23
that hasn't happened anywhere else on the planet.
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3182
从来没有一个国家有这样做过。
10:26
Let's understand, because we lack context.
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1911
我们试着去了解它，
因为我们不知道背景。
因为我们不知道背景。
10:28
People are telling us it's just like Wall Street. It's not just like Wall Street.
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有人告诉我们这就像华尔街。
但不见得。
但不见得。
10:31
Trinidad and Tobago is like a place with different laws of physics or biology or something.
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4489
特立尼达和多巴哥就像是一个
有着不同物理或生物学定律的地方，
有着不同物理或生物学定律的地方，
10:35
It's not just like anywhere. (Applause)
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4744
它和任何地方都不一样。（掌声）
10:40
It's not just like anywhere. It's not just like anywhere.
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它和任何地方都不一样。它和任何地方都不一样。
10:45
Here is here, and out there is out there. Okay?
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这里就是这里，其它地方就是其它地方。
好吗？
好吗？
10:48
I'm serious now.
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我是认真的。
10:49
Listen. They've had bailouts on Wall Street.
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听着，金援疏困在华尔街出现过。
10:52
They've had bailouts in London.
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1951
在伦敦出现过。
10:54
They've had bailouts in Europe.
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2137
在欧洲出现过。
10:56
In Africa, they've had bailouts. In Nigeria, six of the major
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在非洲，也出现过。
在尼日利亚，
在尼日利亚，
10:59
commercial banks collapsed at the same time as ours, eh?
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2565
六家主要商业银行同时倒闭。啊？
11:02
It's interesting to parallel how the Nigerian experience has --
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646192
2241
把尼日利亚的经验
和我们的放在一起很有趣。
和我们的放在一起很有趣。
11:04
how they've treated it, and they've treated it
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他们是如何处理的，
11:06
very well compared to us.
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1871
而且他们的处理方式
比我们的还更好。
比我们的还更好。
11:08
Nowhere on the planet
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1932
世界上没有一个地方，
11:10
have all the creditors been bailed out
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2706
让所有债权人获得清偿，
11:13
in excess of what their statutory entitlements were.
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2292
而超过他们的法定权利应得。
11:15
Only here. So what was the reason for the generosity?
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只有这里例外。
那么如此慷慨的理由是什么呢？
那么如此慷慨的理由是什么呢？
11:19
Is our government that generous? And maybe they are.
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我们的政府有那么慷慨吗？
或许有。
或许有。
11:21
Let's look at it. Let's look into it.
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2016
我们来看看。
我们仔细看看。
我们仔细看看。
11:23
So I started digging and writing and so and so on,
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2768
所以我开始挖掘，写作，如此之类的。
11:26
and that work can be found, my personal work
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我的作品可以被找到，
11:28
can be found at AfraRaymond.com, which is my name.
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3380
在AfraRaymond.com。大家可以搜我的名字。
11:31
It's a not-for-profit blog that I run.
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2872
我的博客是非营利的。
11:34
Not as popular as some of the other people, but there you go.
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2524
没有博客名人那样受欢迎啦，
但是不妨看一下啦。
但是不妨看一下啦。
11:37
(Laughter)
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2258
（笑声）
11:39
But the point is that the bitter experience of Section 34,
242
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4489
但重点是34节的惨痛教训，
11:44
that plot to pervert Parliament, that bitter experience
243
688130
2457
使国会堕落的阴谋，
11:46
that took place in August,
244
690587
3086
八月发生的惨痛教训，
11:49
when we were supposed to be celebrating our independence,
245
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2898
当我们九月应该去庆祝独立日的时候，
11:52
going into September, forced me to check myself
246
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4664
我强迫自己去反省，
11:57
and recalculate my bearings,
247
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2059
重新审视我的底线，
11:59
and to go back into some of the work, some of the stuff I'd written
248
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2222
重新检视我的作品，
我写过的那些东西。
我写过的那些东西。
12:01
and some of the exchanges I'd had with the officials
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2269
以及为了知道事情的真相，
12:03
to see what was really what.
250
707785
2004
而和政府做的妥协。
12:05
As we say in Trinidad and Tobago, who is who and what is what?
251
709789
4110
就像我们在特立尼达和多巴哥所说的，
那些人的真实身份是谁？事情的真相是什么？
那些人的真实身份是谁？事情的真相是什么？
12:09
Okay? We want to try to recalculate.
252
713899
1824
可以吗？我们要重新审视这些。
12:11
And I made a Freedom of Information application
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2424
我向财政部提交了信息自由申请，
12:14
in May this year to the Ministry of Finance.
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3914
今年5月的时候。
12:17
The Ministry of Finance is the next tower over.
255
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2058
财政部是附近那栋大楼。
12:20
This is the other context.
256
724119
1675
这是另外一个背景。
12:21
The Ministry of Finance, we are told,
257
725794
2076
听说财政部，
12:23
is subject to the provisions of the Freedom of Information Act.
258
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3829
需要规范于信息自由法。
12:27
I'm going to take you through a worked example of whether that's really so.
259
731699
3304
我将用一个发生过的事例，
告诉你是不是真的是这样。
告诉你是不是真的是这样。
12:30
The Central Bank in which we stand this morning
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2888
我们现在所处的中央银行，
12:33
is immune from the provisions of the Freedom of Information Act.
261
737891
4197
是不受信息自由法规范的。
12:37
So in fact, you can't ask them anything,
262
742088
1679
所以，实际上你们无权质疑他们任何事情。
12:39
and they don't have to answer anything.
263
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1693
他们不用回答任何问题。
12:41
That is the law since 1999.
264
745460
2822
从1999年法律就是这样。
12:44
So I plunged into this struggle, and I asked four questions.
265
748282
3576
但我极力争取，问了四个问题。
12:47
And I'll relate the questions to you in the short form with the reply,
266
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3689
问答的精简版，我提供给你们看看。
12:51
so you could understand, as I said, where we are.
267
755547
2615
那样你们就能了解，
就像我说的，我们的处境如何。
就像我说的，我们的处境如何。
12:54
Here is not like anywhere else.
268
758162
1521
这里不像别的任何地方。
12:55
Question number one:
269
759683
2978
第一个问题：
12:58
I asked to see the accounts of CL Financial,
270
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2590
我要求看CL Financi的账目。
13:01
and if you can't show me the accounts --
271
765251
2472
如果你们不能公布帐目的话，
13:03
the Minister of Finance is making statements,
272
767723
1965
那财政部在发表声明，
13:05
passing new laws and giving speeches and so on.
273
769688
2615
通过法新法和发表演讲，
做这些事情的时候，
做这些事情的时候，
13:08
What are the figures he's relying on?
274
772303
2291
他的依据是什么呢？
13:10
It's like that joke: I want whatever he's drinking.
275
774594
2620
这很好笑：
我只是想要他现在喝的东西，不管是什么
我只是想要他现在喝的东西，不管是什么
13:13
And they wrote back and said to me,
276
777214
1599
但他们回信说：
13:14
well what do you really mean?
277
778813
1711
你真正的意思是什么？
13:16
So they hit my question with a question.
278
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2391
他们就抛出一个问题来回避我的问题。
13:18
Second point: I want to see
279
782915
3121
第二个问题：
13:21
who are the creditors of the group who have been repaid?
280
786036
3699
我想知道债权人是谁？
谁会获得赔偿？
谁会获得赔偿？
13:25
Let me pause here to point out to you all
281
789735
2004
让我暂停一下，我要跟各位指出，
13:27
that 24 billion dollars of our money has been spent on this.
282
791739
3681
我们的钱，有240亿花在这里。
13:31
That is about three and a half billion U.S. dollars
283
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2399
大概是35亿美金。
13:33
coming out of a small -- we used to be resource-rich --
284
797819
3496
来自一个小小的加勒比海国家。
13:37
Caribbean country. Okay?
285
801315
2372
虽然曾经资源丰富。了解吗？
13:39
And I asked the question,
286
803687
1548
所以我问了这个问题。
13:41
who was getting that three and a half billion dollars?
287
805235
4146
35亿美金谁拿了？
13:45
And I want to pause again to bring up context,
288
809381
2257
我还想再停一下，交待另一个背景。
13:47
because context helps us to get clarity understanding this thing.
289
811638
3403
借助上下文，
我们可以更好的理解这件事情。
我们可以更好的理解这件事情。
13:50
There's a particular individual who is in the government now.
290
815041
2570
现在我要说到政府里某个特定的人。
13:53
The name of the person doesn't matter.
291
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1720
他的名字不重要。
13:55
And that person made a career
292
819331
2552
这个人依靠信息自由法案，
13:57
out of using the Freedom of Information Act
293
821883
2361
成就他的事业。
14:00
to advance his political cause.
294
824244
2119
让他的政治生涯更进一步。
14:02
Okay? His name isn't important.
295
826363
3243
好吗？他的名字不重要。
14:05
I wouldn't dignify it. I'm on a point.
296
829606
2333
我不会强调它。我要讲一个重点。
14:07
The point is, that person made a career out of using
297
831939
2420
重点是，那个人可以利用信息自由法案，
14:10
the Freedom of Information Act to advance his cause.
298
834359
2964
去提升他的政治生涯!
14:13
And the most famous case
299
837323
2314
最广为人知的事件，
14:15
was what we came to call the Secret Scholarship Scandal,
300
839637
2893
就是我们后来称为“秘密奖学金丑闻”。
14:18
where in fact there was about 60 million dollars in government money
301
842530
2889
政府的钱有6000万
14:21
that had been dispersed in a series of scholarships,
302
845419
2872
拨给了一系列的奖学基金，
14:24
and the scholarships hadn't been advertised, and so and so on and so on.
303
848291
2724
而这些奖学基金根本没有被宣传，如此之类的。
14:26
And he was able to get the court, using that act of Parliament,
304
851015
2991
他得以进入法庭，运用议会法案，
14:29
Freedom of Information Act,
305
854006
1633
信息自由法案，
14:31
to release the information,
306
855639
1977
来发布这一信息。
14:33
and I thought that was excellent.
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857616
3365
我觉得他真的很高明。
14:36
Fantastic.
308
860981
3166
厉害！
14:40
But you see, the question is this:
309
864147
1950
但是各位请看，问题在于：
14:41
If it's right and proper for us to use the Freedom of Information Act
310
866097
4213
如果我们我们能运用信息自由法，
14:46
and to use the court
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通过司法途径，
14:49
to force a disclosure about 60 million dollars in public money,
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迫使6000万美金流向得以公开，
14:54
it must be right and proper
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那我们迫使公开240亿的流向
14:56
for us to force a disclosure about 24 billion dollars.
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也是正确和适当的。
15:00
You see? But the Ministry of Finance,
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看到吗？但财政部
15:03
the Permanent Secretary of the Ministry of Finance,
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它的常务秘书回复我说，
15:04
wrote me and said to me, that information is exempt too.
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那些信息享有豁免权。
15:07
You see? This is what we're dealing with, okay?
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看到了吗？
这就是我们现在面对的，不是吗？
这就是我们现在面对的，不是吗？
15:10
The third thing I will tell you
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第三个问题：
15:12
is that I also asked
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我也问到，
15:15
for the directors of CL Financial,
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我问财政部长
15:18
whether in fact they were making filings under our Integrity in Public Life Act.
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他们有没有按照
”公务人员操守法案”（Public Life Act）归档，
”公务人员操守法案”（Public Life Act）归档，
15:23
We have an Integrity in Public Life Act
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我们有这样一个法案，
15:24
as part of our framework supposed to safeguard the nation's interest.
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它是一个架构，用来保护国家利益。
15:29
And public officials are supposed to file
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公务人员要求归档，
15:31
to say what it is they have in terms of assets and liabilities.
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对他们有的资产和负债进行申报。
15:38
And of course I've since discovered that they're not filing,
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当然我发现他们并没有这么做。
15:40
and in fact the Minister of Finance has not even asked them to file.
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实际上财务部长
也没有要求他们这么做。
也没有要求他们这么做。
15:43
So here we have it. We have a situation where
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所以这就是我们面对的真实情况。
15:48
the basic safeguards of integrity and accountability
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我们身处一个对操守，责任心和透明化
15:53
and transparency have all been discarded.
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连基本的底线都被舍弃的环境里。
15:55
I've asked the question in the legal and required fashion.
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我使用合法的，请求的语气去问问题的。
15:57
It's been ignored.
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但是问题被忽视了。
16:00
The sort of thing that motivated us around Section 34,
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这些事情激励我们为34节继续斗争。
16:03
we need to continue to work on that. We can't forget it.
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我们需要继续为之努力。
我们不能忘记。
我们不能忘记。
16:05
I have defined this as the single largest expenditure in the country's history.
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我把它定义为国家历史上最大的支出。
16:09
It's also the single largest example
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在政府贪腐问题上
16:12
of public corruption according to this equation.
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这也是最瞩目的案例。
16:17
And this is my reality check.
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这是我了解到的事实。
16:20
Where you have an expenditure of public money
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当公共财产的支出，
16:22
and it is without accountability
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没有责任明确，
16:25
and it's without transparency,
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不透明，
16:27
it will always be equal to corruption,
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那它和贪腐是划等号的。
16:29
whether you're in Russia or Nigeria or Alaska,
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不管你是在俄罗斯，尼日尼亚，还是阿拉斯加。
16:32
it will always be equal to corruption, and that is what we are dealing with here.
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它永远和贪腐划等划，
这是我们要面对的。
这是我们要面对的。
16:36
I'm going to continue the work
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我要继续努力，
16:39
to press on, to get some resolution
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为财政部的这类事件
16:43
of those matters at the Ministry of Finance.
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坚持抗争，直到获得解决。
16:45
If it is I have to go to court personally, I will do that.
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即使需要法庭相见也在所不辞。
16:47
We will continue to press on.
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我们会坚持到底。
16:48
We will continue to work within JCC.
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我们会在JCC里继续工作。
16:50
But I want to step back from the Trinidad and Tobago context
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但我想从刚才的背景里跳出来，
16:53
and bring something new to the table
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讲一些另外的事情，
16:55
in terms of an international example.
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是关于一个国际案例。
16:57
We had the journalist [Heather] Brooke speaking
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记者[Heather] Brooke 告诉我们
17:00
about her battle against government corruption,
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她与政府部门贪腐的斗争。
17:02
and she introduced me to this website, Alaveteli.com.
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她介绍我这个网站，Alaveteli.com
17:07
And Alaveteli.com is a way for us to have an open database
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这个网站让我们有一个公开的数据库，
17:12
for Freedom of Information applications,
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关于信息自由应用的数据库。
17:15
and speak with each other.
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我们可以互相交流。
17:17
I could see what you're applying for.
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我可以看到你的诉求。
17:19
You could see what I applied for and what replies I got.
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你们可以看到我的诉求
以及我得到的回应，
以及我得到的回应，
17:23
We can work on it together. We need to build a collective database
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我们可以一起为之努力。
我们需要建立一个共同的数据库，
我们需要建立一个共同的数据库，
17:26
and a collective understanding of where we are to go to the next point.
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以及达成共识，下一步的目标在哪里。
17:29
We need to increase the consciousness.
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我们需要意识进一步的觉醒。
17:31
The final thing I want to say is in relation to this one,
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我想说的最后一件事情，
跟这个有关。
跟这个有关。
17:35
which is a lovely website from India
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它是一个很可爱的印度网站：
17:36
called IPaidABribe.com.
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IPaidABribe.com。
17:39
They have international branches,
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他们在世界各国都有分支，
17:41
and it's important for us to tune into this one.
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我们也应该参与其中，这很重要。
17:43
IPaidABribe.com is really important,
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IPaidABribe.com 真的很棒，
17:46
a good one to log on to and see.
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值得我们去了解看看。
17:48
I'm going to pause there. I'm going to ask you for your courage.
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我要在这里暂停一下。
我要你们拿出自己的勇气。
我要你们拿出自己的勇气。
17:51
Discard the first myth; it is a crime.
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解除第一个迷思。
它的确是犯罪。
它的确是犯罪。
17:53
Discard the second myth; it is a big thing.
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解除第二个迷思。
这是一件大事。
这是一件大事。
17:55
It's a huge problem. It's an economic crime.
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一件很严重的事。
它是一种经济犯罪。
它是一种经济犯罪。
17:58
And let us continue working together
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让我们继续一起努力，
18:00
to betterment in this situation,
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让这一状况得到改善。
18:01
stability and sustainability in our society. Thank you.
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让我们的社会持续稳定地发展下去。
谢谢你们！
谢谢你们！
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Afra Raymond - Transparency activistA leading expert in the fields of property valuation and project management, Afra Raymond is battling the government corruption rampant in his country, Trinidad and Tobago.
Why you should listen
Afra Raymond calls out government corruption, demanding more transparency and accountability from the leaders of Trinidad and Tobago. His work in recent years has focused on the CL Financial collapse of 2009 and subsequent government bailout, which Raymond says operated “with different laws of physics” than bailouts of financial institutions in other countries. Writing on topics like white-collar crime, good governance and national development, Raymond shows that corruption shouldn't be a given. He wrote the column “Property Matters” in The Business Guardian from 2004 through 2012. Now, he writes on his own website, AfraRaymond.com.
Raymond looks at corruption through his lens as an expert in the fields of property valuation, project appraisal, development planning and management. He is a Chartered Surveyor and Managing Director of Raymond & Pierre Limited and was elected a Fellow of the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors (RICS) in January 2011. He has served on a number of Boards in various positions including Executive Member of the Federation of Black Housing Organizations (FBHO) in London, Board member of the Trinidad Building & Loan Association (TBLA), Director of EPL Properties Limited (EPL), a wholly-owned subsidiary of Eastern Credit Union (ECU) and Immediate Past-President of the Institute of Surveyors of Trinidad & Tobago (ISTT).
Afra Raymond | Speaker | TED.com