TEDxPortofSpain
Afra Raymond: Three myths about corruption
Afra Raymond: Tri neresnice o korupciji
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Država Trinidad in Tobago je v sedemdesetih letih nabrala ogromno bogastvo zahvaljujoč nafti. Leta 1982 pa je bilo razkrito šokantno dejstvo - dva od vsakih treh dolarjev, namenjenih za razvoj, sta bila izgubljena ali ukradena. To je Afro Raymonda preganjalo trideset let. Raymond osvetli področje vladne korupcije, ki vlada še danes, in nam predstavi novo perspektivo finančnega kriminala. (Posneto na TEDxPortOfSpain.)
Afra Raymond - Transparency activist
A leading expert in the fields of property valuation and project management, Afra Raymond is battling the government corruption rampant in his country, Trinidad and Tobago. Full bio
A leading expert in the fields of property valuation and project management, Afra Raymond is battling the government corruption rampant in his country, Trinidad and Tobago. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:16
Okay, this morning I'm speaking
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Danes bom govoril
00:18
on the question of corruption.
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o vprašanju korupcije.
00:21
And corruption is defined
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Korupcija se lahko opredeli
00:23
as the abuse of a position of trust
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kot zloraba zaupanega položaja
00:29
for the benefit of yourself -- or, in the case of our context,
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v svojo korist ali v našem kontekstu
00:33
your friends, your family or your financiers.
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v korist vaših prijateljev, družine ali vaših finančnikov.
00:35
Okay? Friends, family and financiers.
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Torej prijateljev, družine in finančnikov.
00:40
But we need to understand what we understand about corruption,
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A vendar moramo razumeti, kar razumemo o korupciji,
00:44
and we need to understand that
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moramo razumeti,
00:47
we have been miseducated about it, and we have to admit that.
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da so nas o njej narobe učili, to moramo priznati.
00:50
We have to have the courage to admit that
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Moramo zbrati pogum, da to priznamo,
00:52
to start changing how we deal with it.
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da lahko začnemo spreminjati naš odziv nanjo.
00:54
The first thing is that the big myth, number one,
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Prvič; velika neresnica številka ena je,
00:57
is that in fact it's not really a crime.
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da sama po sebi sploh ni zločin.
00:59
When we get together with friends and family
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Ko se dobimo z družino in prijatelji
01:01
and we discuss crime in our country,
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in govorimo o kriminalu v naši državi,
01:03
crime in Belmont or crime in Diego or crime in Marabella,
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o kriminalu v Belmontu, Diegu ali Marabelli,
01:07
nobody's speaking about corruption.
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nihče ne govori o korupciji.
01:08
That's the honest truth.
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To je čista resnica.
01:10
When the Commissioner of Police comes on TV to talk about crime,
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Ko se na televiziji pojavi policijski komisar, da bi govoril o kriminalu,
01:13
he isn't speaking about corruption.
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ne govori o korupciji.
01:15
And we know for sure when the Minister of National Security
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In zagotovo vemo, da, ko minister za obrambo
01:17
is speaking about crime, he's not talking about corruption either.
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govori o kriminalu, prav tako ne govori o korupciji.
01:21
The point I'm making is that it is a crime.
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Hočem povedati, da je zločin.
01:24
It is an economic crime, because we're involving the looting of taxpayers' money.
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Je ekonomski zločin, ker gre za plenjenje davkoplačevalskega denarja.
01:28
Public and private corruption is a reality.
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Javna in zasebna korupcija sta resnični.
01:31
As somebody who comes from the private sector,
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Kot nekdo, ki prihaja iz zasebnega sektorja,
01:33
I can tell you there's a massive amount of corruption
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vam lahko povem, da je neizmerno veliko korupcije
01:35
in the private sector that has nothing to do with government.
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v zasebnem sektorju, ki nima nobene povezave z vlado.
01:38
The same bribes and backhanders and things that take place under the table,
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Prav tiste podkupnine in stvari, ki se dogajajo pod mizo,
01:41
it all takes place in the private sector.
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vse se dogaja v zasebnem sektorju.
01:43
Today, I'm focusing on public sector corruption,
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Danes se bom osredotočil na korupcijo v javnem sektorju,
01:47
which the private sector also participates in.
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pri kateri ima vlogo tudi zasebni.
01:50
The second important myth to understand --
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Druga pomembna neresnica, ki jo moramo razumeti -
01:52
because we have to destroy these myths,
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ker moramo te neresnice uničiti,
01:54
dismantle them and destroy them and ridicule them --
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jih razstaviti, pokončati in zasmehovati -
01:57
the second important myth to understand
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druga pomembna neresnica, ki jo moramo razumeti,
01:59
is the one that says
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je tista, ki pravi,
02:01
that in fact corruption is only a small problem --
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da je korupcija pravzaprav majhen problem,
02:04
if it is a problem, it's only a small problem,
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če sploh je problem, je majhen problem,
02:07
that in fact it's only a little 10 or 15 percent,
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da gre v bistvu samo za malih 10 ali 15 procentov.
02:10
it's been going on forever, it probably will continue forever,
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Obstaja že od nekdaj, verjetno bo tu za zmeraj
02:14
and there's no point passing any laws, because there's little we can do about it.
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in nima smisla sprejemati zakonov,
ker se ne da narediti ničesar.
ker se ne da narediti ničesar.
02:18
And I want to demonstrate that that, too,
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Rad bi dokazal, da je tudi to
02:20
is a dangerous myth, very dangerous.
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nevarna neresnica, zelo nevarna.
02:22
It's a piece of public mischief.
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Je navadna neumnost.
02:25
And I want to speak a little bit,
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Rad bi povedal nekaj,
02:27
take us back about 30 years.
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nas popeljal 30 let nazaj.
02:30
We're coming out today from Trinidad and Tobago,
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Prihajamo iz Trinidada in Tobaga,
02:32
a resource-rich, small Caribbean country,
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majhne, z naravnimi viri bogate karibske države.
02:35
and in the early 1970s we had a massive increase in the country's wealth,
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V zgodnjih 70. letih smo imeli ogromen porast v državnem premoženju,
02:40
and that increase was caused by the increase in world oil prices.
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ki je nastal zaradi podražitve svetovnih cen nafte.
02:43
We call them petrodollars. The treasury was bursting with money.
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Pravimo jim naftni dolarji. Zakladnica je pokala po šivih.
02:46
And it's ironic, because
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Ironično je,
02:50
we're standing today in the Central Bank.
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da se danes nahajamo v Centralni Banki.
02:52
You see, history's rich in irony.
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Veste, zgodovina je bogata z ironijo.
02:54
We're standing today in the Central Bank,
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Danes se nahajamo v Centralni Banki
02:56
and the Central Bank is responsible for a lot of the things I'm going to be speaking about.
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in prav ta je odgovorna za kar nekaj stvari,
o katerih bom danes govoril.
o katerih bom danes govoril.
02:59
Okay? We're talking about irresponsibility in public office.
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Torej, govorimo o neodgovornosti v javnih uradih.
03:03
We're speaking about the fact that across the terrace,
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Govorimo o dejstvu, da je naslednja stolpnica takoj čez teraso
03:05
the next tower is the Ministry of Finance,
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Ministrstvo za finance,
03:08
and there's a lot of connection with us today,
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ki ima danes veliko povezavo z nami,
03:09
so we're speaking within your temple today. Okay?
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zato bomo danes govorili znotraj vašega svetišča, prav?
03:12
(Applause)
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(Aplavz)
03:17
The first thing I want to talk about is that
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Najprej bi rad govoril o tem,
03:19
when all of this money flowed into our country about 40 years ago,
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kako je pred 40 leti ves ta denar pritekel v našo državo.
03:23
we embarked, the government of the day embarked
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Takratna vlada je začela
03:25
on a series of government-to-government arrangements
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vrsto vladnih dogovorov
03:27
to have rapidly develop the country.
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za čim hitrejši razvoj države.
03:29
And some of the largest projects in the country
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Nekateri izmed večjih državnih projektov
03:31
were being constructed through government-to-government arrangements
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so bili zgrajeni na podlagi medvladnih dogovorov
03:35
with some of the leading countries in the world,
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z nekaterimi najpomembnejšimi državami na svetu,
03:36
the United States and Britain and France and so on and so on.
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Združenimi Državami Amerike,
Veliko Britanijo, Francijo in tako naprej.
Veliko Britanijo, Francijo in tako naprej.
03:39
As I said, even this building we're standing in -- that's one of the ironies --
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Kot sem omenil, celo ta stavba v kateri se nahajamo
- to je ena izmed ironij -
- to je ena izmed ironij -
03:42
this building was part of that series of complexes,
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ta stavba je bila del te serije kompleksov
03:44
what they called the Twin Towers.
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čemur so rekli Dvojčka.
03:48
It became so outrageous, the whole situation,
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Celotna situacija je postala tako nezaslišana,
03:51
that in fact a commission of inquiry was appointed,
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da so določili preiskovalno komisijo,
03:54
and it reported in 1982, 30 years ago it reported --
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ki je pred 30 leti, leta 1982 pojasnila svoja odkritja
03:58
the Ballah Report -- 30 years ago,
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v poročilu Ballah - pred 30 leti.
04:01
and immediately the government-to-government arrangements were stopped.
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Medvladni dogovori so bili pri priči ustavljeni.
04:05
The then-Prime Minister went to Parliament
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Takratni premier je imel v parlamentu
04:06
to give a budget speech, and he said some things that I'll never forget.
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govor glede proračuna.
Izjavil je nekaj stvari, ki jih nikoli ne bom pozabil.
Izjavil je nekaj stvari, ki jih nikoli ne bom pozabil.
04:10
They went right in here. I was a young man at the time.
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Seglo mi je prav do sem. Takrat sem bil še mladenič.
04:12
It went right into my heart.
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Seglo mi je do srca.
04:13
And he said that, in fact — Let me see if this thing works.
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Povedal je ... da vidim, če to deluje.
04:18
Are we getting a, yeah?—
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Bo šlo, ja?
04:21
That's what he told us.
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Povedal nam je tole.
04:23
He told us that, in fact,
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Povedal nam je, da sta bila pravzaprav
04:27
two out of every three dollars of our petrodollars
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dva od vsakih treh naftnih dolarjev,
04:30
that we spent, the taxpayers' money,
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ki smo jih porabili, davkoplačevalskega denarja,
04:32
was wasted or stolen.
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zapravljena ali ukradena.
04:34
So the 10 or 15 percent is pure mischief.
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Tistih 10 ali 15 procentov je navadna neumnost.
04:38
As we say, it's a nancy-story. Forget it.
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Kot pravimo, navadna pravljica. Kar pozabite.
04:40
That's for little children. We are big people,
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To je za otroke. Mi smo že veliki,
04:42
and we're trying to deal with what's happening in our society.
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trudimo se spoprijeti s tem, kar se dogaja v naši družbi.
04:45
Okay? This is the size of the problem.
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To je velikost tega problema.
04:47
Okay? Two thirds of the money stolen or wasted.
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Dve tretjini denarja sta bili ukradeni ali izgubljeni.
04:50
That was 30 years ago. 1982 was Ballah.
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To je bilo pred 30 leti. Leta 1982 se je zgodil Ballah.
04:53
So what has changed?
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Torej, kaj se je spremenilo?
04:55
I don't like to bring up embarrassing secrets
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Nerad omenjam sramotne skrivnosti pred
04:57
to an international audience, but I have to.
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mednarodnem občinstvom, ampak moram.
05:00
Four months ago, we suffered a constitutional outrage in this country.
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Pred štirimi meseci smo doživeli ustavni škandal.
05:03
We call it the Section 34 fiasco, the Section 34 fiasco,
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Pravimo mu polomija Poglavja 34,
05:08
a suspicious piece of law, and I'm going to say it like it is,
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kar je sumljiv zakon, recimo bobu bob,
05:11
a suspicious piece of law
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sumljiv zakon,
05:12
was passed at a suspicious time
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ki je bil sprejet ob sumljivem času
05:14
to free some suspects. (Laughter)
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za osvoboditev nekaterih osumljencev. (smeh)
05:16
And it was called, those people are called
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Imenuje se, ti ljudje se imenujejo
05:23
the Piarco Airport accused.
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obtoženci letališča Piarco.
05:24
I'm going to have my own lexicon speaking here today.
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Danes bom imel čisto svoje besedišče.
05:27
They are the Piarco Airport accused.
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To so obtoženci letališča Piarco.
05:29
It was a constitutional outrage of the first order,
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Bilo je ustavni škandal prvega razreda.
05:32
and I have labeled it the Plot to Pervert Parliament.
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Nadel sem mu ime Zarota za izprijenje parlamenta.
05:36
Our highest institution in our country was perverted.
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Naša najvišja državna institucija je bila izprijena.
05:39
We are dealing with perverts here
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Govorimo o izprijencih
05:41
of an economic and financial nature.
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gospodarske in finančne narave.
05:43
Do you get how serious this problem is?
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Razumete, kako resen je ta problem?
05:45
There was massive protest. A lot of us in this room
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Zgodil se je ogromen protest. Veliko nas, ki smo danes tukaj,
05:47
took part in the protest in different forms.
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je sodelovalo pri protestu na različne načine.
05:49
Most importantly, the American embassy complained,
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Najbolj pomembno, ameriško veleposlaništvo se je pritožilo,
05:52
so Parliament was swiftly reconvened,
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tako se je parlament ponovno sestal,
05:55
and the law was reversed, it was repealed.
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zakon so odpravili, razveljavili.
05:57
That's the word lawyers use. It was repealed.
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To besedo uporabljajo odvetniki. Razveljavili so ga.
05:59
But the point is
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Bistvo pa je,
06:02
that Parliament was outwitted in the whole course of events,
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da so parlament tekom dogajanja prelisičili,
06:05
because what really happened is that,
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v resnici se je to zgodilo
06:08
because of the suspicious passage of that law,
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zaradi sumljivega sprejetja zakona.
06:11
the law was actually passed into effect
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Ta zakon je bil sprejet
06:13
on the weekend we celebrated our 50th anniversary of independence,
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prav na konec tedna, ko smo proslavljali
našo 50. obletnico samostojnosti,
našo 50. obletnico samostojnosti,
06:17
our jubilee of independence.
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na naš jubilej samostojnosti.
06:18
So that is the kind of outrage of the thing.
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Na to vrsto ogorčenosti se nanašam.
06:20
It was kind of a nasty way to get maturation, but we got it,
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Zoprn način zrelosti, pa vendar smo jo dočakali,
06:24
because we all understood it,
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ker smo jo vsi razumeli.
06:25
and for the first time that I could remember,
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Prvič, odkar pomnim,
06:27
there were mass protests against this corruption.
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se je zgodil masovni protest proti korupciji.
06:31
And that gave me a lot of hope. Okay?
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To mi je dalo veliko upanja.
06:33
Those of us who are, sometimes you feel like
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Nekateri od nas se včasih počutimo,
06:35
you're a little bit on your own doing some of this work.
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kot da smo sami v tem.
06:38
That passage of the law and the repeal of the law
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Sprejetje in razveljavitev tega zakona
06:41
fortified the case of the Piarco Airport accused.
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sta okrepila primer obtožencev letališča Piarco.
06:45
So it was one of those really superior double bluff kind of things that took place.
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Torej je bil eden izmed tistih primerov "dvojnih meril".
06:50
But what were they accused of?
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Česa pa so bili obtoženi?
06:52
What was it that they were accused of?
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Kakšne stvari so bili obtoženi?
06:53
I'm being a bit mysterious for those of you out there. What were they accused of?
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Za nekatere sem malo skrivnosten. Česa so bili obtoženi?
06:56
We were trying to build, or reconstruct largely,
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Poskušali smo zgraditi, oziroma rekonstruirati
06:59
an airport that had grown outdated.
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zastarelo letališče.
07:01
The entire project cost about 1.6 billion dollars,
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Celoten projekt je stal 1,6 milijarde dolarjev,
07:05
Trinidad and Tobago dollars,
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dolarjev Trinidada in Tobaga,
07:08
and in fact, we had a lot of bid-rigging
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združeni tekmeci so načrtno podraževali cene,
07:11
and suspicious activity, corrupt activity took place.
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bilo je veliko sumljivih aktivnosti, koruptivnih aktivnosti.
07:14
And to get an idea of what it consisted of,
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Da vidimo, kako je bilo sestavljeno,
07:18
and to put it in context in relationship to this whole
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v kakšnem kontekstu je v povezavi z vso to
07:21
second myth about it being no big thing,
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drugo neresnico o tem, da ni nič takšnega,
07:24
we can look at this second slide here.
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si lahko ogledamo naslednji diapozitiv.
07:26
And what we have here -- I am not saying so,
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Tukaj imamo - tega ne trdim jaz,
07:30
this is the Director of Public Prosecutions in a written statement. He said so.
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to je javna izjava direktorja Javnega Tožilstva. To je izjavil on.
07:35
And he's telling us that for the $1.6 billion cost of the project,
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Pravi, da so od 1,6 milijarde, ki je stala ta projekt,
07:39
one billion dollars has been traced
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eno milijardo izsledili
07:42
to offshore bank accounts.
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na bančnih računih izven države.
07:43
One billion dollars of our taxpayers' money
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Ena milijarda davkoplačevalskega denarja
07:45
has been located in offshore bank accounts.
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se je nahajala na tujih bančnih računih.
07:49
Being the kind of suspicious person I am,
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Ker sem po naravi sumničav,
07:51
I am outraged at that, and I'm going to pause here,
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sem zgrožen nad tem. Tu se bom malce ustavil,
07:54
I'm going to pause now and again and bring in different things.
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malo se bom ustavil in se posvetil drugim stvarem.
07:56
I'm going to pause here and bring in something I saw
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Ustavil se bom in omenil nekaj, kar sem videl
07:58
in November last year at Wall Street. I was at Zuccotti Park.
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lanskega novembra na Wall Streetu. Bilo je v parku Zuccotti.
08:02
It was autumn. It was cool. It was damp. It was getting dark.
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Bila je jesen. Bilo je mrzlo, vlažno, temnilo se je.
08:06
And I was walking around with the protesters
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Hodil sem naokrog s protestniki,
08:08
looking at the One Wall Street, Occupy Wall Street movement walking around.
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videl sem stavbo 1 Wall Street, medtem ko je gibanje Occupy Wall Street hodilo naokrog.
08:12
And there was a lady with a sign, a very simple sign,
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Tam je bila gospa z zelo preprostim transparentom,
08:14
a kind of battered-looking blonde lady,
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svetlolasa gospa, ki je izgledala malce zlorabljeno,
08:17
and the sign was made out of Bristol board, as we say in these parts,
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transparent je bil narejen iz šeleshamerja,
08:20
and it was made with a marker.
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popisanega z markerjem.
08:22
And what it said on that sign hit me right in the center.
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Napis me je zadel naravnost v srce.
08:24
It said, "If you're not outraged, you haven't been paying attention."
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Pisalo je: "Če niste zgroženi, potem niste bili dovolj pozorni."
08:29
If you're not outraged by all of this, you haven't been paying attention.
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Če niste zgroženi ob vsem tem, potem niste bili dovolj pozorni.
08:32
So listen up, because we're getting into even deeper waters.
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Zato poslušajte, zdaj se bomo še malo poglobili.
08:36
My brain started thinking.
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Moji možgani so začeli razmišljati.
08:38
Well, what if --
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Kaj pa če ...
08:41
because I'm suspicious like that. I read a lot of spy novels and stuff.
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Ker sem sumničav, berem veliko kriminalk in podobnega.
08:44
What if -- (Laughter)
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Kaj pa če ... (smeh)
08:46
But to make it in these wrongs,
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Da preživiš ob teh krivicah,
08:48
you have to read a lot of spy novels
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moraš brati veliko detektivk
08:50
and follow some of that stuff, right? (Laughter)
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in spremljati take stvari, kajne?
08:52
But what if this wasn't the first time?
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Kaj pa če to ni bilo prvič?
08:57
What if this is just the first time
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Kaj pa če je to samo prvič,
09:00
that the so-and-sos had been caught?
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da so bili ti ljudje zasačeni?
09:02
What if it had happened before? How would I find out?
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Kaj, če se je to zgodilo že prej? Kako naj bi to izvedel?
09:07
Now, the previous two examples I gave
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Prejšnja dva primera, ki sem jih izpostavil,
09:10
were to do with construction sector corruption, okay?
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sta zadevala korupcijo v gradbenem sektorju, kajne?
09:14
And I have the privilege at this time
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Tokrat pa imam čast
09:16
to lead the Joint Consultative Council, which is a not-for-profit.
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voditi neprofitno organizacijo Joint Consultative Council.
09:19
We're at jcc.org.tt, and we have the -- we are the leaders
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Naš e-naslov je jcc.org.tt in smo vodilni
09:23
in the struggle to produce a new public procurement system
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v boju za ustanovitev novega sistema za javne pridobitve,
09:26
about how public money is transacted.
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torej način nakazovanja denarja.
09:28
So those of you interested in finding out more about it,
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Tisti, ki vas zanima več o tem,
09:30
or joining us or signing up on any of our petitions, please get involved.
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ali bi se nam radi pridružili ali podpisali naše peticije,
ste dobrodošli.
ste dobrodošli.
09:34
But I'm going to segue to another thing that relates,
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Prešel bom na drugo stvar, ki se na to nanaša,
09:37
because one of my private campaigns I've been conducting
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ena od mojih zasebnih kampanj, ki jo izvajam
09:39
for over three and a half years
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že več kot tri in pol leta,
09:42
is for transparency and accountability
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se zavzema za transparentnost in odgovornost
09:44
around the bailout of CL Financial.
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glede finančne injekcije družbi CL Financial.
09:47
CL Financial is the Caribbean's largest ever conglomerate, okay?
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CL Financial je največji karibski konglomerat.
09:52
And without getting into all of the details,
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In da se ne spustim preveč v podrobnosti,
09:55
it is said to have collapsed — I'm using my words very carefully —
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naj bi propadel - skrbno izbiram besede -
09:58
it's said to have collapsed in January of '09,
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propadel naj bi januarja 2009,
10:01
which is just coming up to nearly four years.
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kar se zdaj približuje skoraj štirim letom.
10:05
In an unprecedented fit of generosity --
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V neprimerljivem napadu radodarnosti -
10:08
and you have to be very suspicious about these people --
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o teh ljudeh moramo biti zelo sumničavi -
10:10
in an unprecedented — and I'm using that word carefully —
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v neprimerljivem - to besedo uporabljam previdno -
10:13
unprecedented fit of generosity, the government of the day
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v neprimerljivem napadu radodarnosti je takratna vlada
10:17
signed, made a written commitment, to repay all of the creditors.
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podpisala, naredila pisno obvezo, da bo poplačala vse upnike.
10:20
And I can tell you without fear of contradiction
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Brez strahu da bi mi kdo oporekal, vam lahko povem,
10:23
that hasn't happened anywhere else on the planet.
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da se to ni zgodilo nikjer drugje na planetu.
10:26
Let's understand, because we lack context.
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1911
Razumimo, ker nam primanjkuje konteksta.
10:28
People are telling us it's just like Wall Street. It's not just like Wall Street.
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Ljudje nam pravijo, da je enako kot na Wall Streetu.
Ni enako.
Ni enako.
10:31
Trinidad and Tobago is like a place with different laws of physics or biology or something.
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Trinidad in Tobago je kot kraj z drugačnimi zakoni fizike ali biologije, ali nekaj takšnega.
10:35
It's not just like anywhere. (Applause)
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Ni kot kjerkoli drugje. (aplavz)
10:40
It's not just like anywhere. It's not just like anywhere.
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Ni kot kjerkoli drugje. Ni.
10:45
Here is here, and out there is out there. Okay?
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2831
Tu je tu in tam je tam, prav?
10:48
I'm serious now.
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Resno govorim.
10:49
Listen. They've had bailouts on Wall Street.
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Poslušajte. Na Wall Streetu so dobili denarno pomoč od vlade.
10:52
They've had bailouts in London.
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1951
Prav tako v Londonu,
10:54
They've had bailouts in Europe.
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v Evropi,
10:56
In Africa, they've had bailouts. In Nigeria, six of the major
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v Afriki. V Nigeriji je šest izmed največjih
10:59
commercial banks collapsed at the same time as ours, eh?
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poslovnih bank propadlo ob istem času kot pri nas.
11:02
It's interesting to parallel how the Nigerian experience has --
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Zanimivo je primerjati, kako so se v Nigeriji na situacijo
11:04
how they've treated it, and they've treated it
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odzvali, precej dobro
11:06
very well compared to us.
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1871
v primerjavi z nami.
11:08
Nowhere on the planet
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1932
Nikjer na planetu
11:10
have all the creditors been bailed out
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2706
niso bili vsi upniki poplačani
11:13
in excess of what their statutory entitlements were.
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z več, kot je zahtevala njihova ustavna pravica.
11:15
Only here. So what was the reason for the generosity?
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Samo tu. Kaj je bil torej razlog za to radodarnost?
11:19
Is our government that generous? And maybe they are.
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Je naša vlada tako darežljiva?
11:21
Let's look at it. Let's look into it.
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2016
Poglejmo. Poglobimo se.
11:23
So I started digging and writing and so and so on,
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Začel sem raziskovati in pisati in tako naprej,
11:26
and that work can be found, my personal work
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moje osebno delo lahko najdete
11:28
can be found at AfraRaymond.com, which is my name.
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na AfraRaymond.com, kar je moje ime.
11:31
It's a not-for-profit blog that I run.
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Upravljam neprofiten blog.
11:34
Not as popular as some of the other people, but there you go.
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2524
Ni tako popularen, kot od koga drugega, pa vseeno.
11:37
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
11:39
But the point is that the bitter experience of Section 34,
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Stvar je v tem, da ta grenka izkušnja z Oddelkom 34,
11:44
that plot to pervert Parliament, that bitter experience
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2457
ta zarota, ki naj bi pokvarila parlament, ta grenka izkušnja,
11:46
that took place in August,
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3086
ki se je zgodila avgusta,
11:49
when we were supposed to be celebrating our independence,
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2898
ko naj bi proslavljali svojo samostojnost,
11:52
going into September, forced me to check myself
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na prehodu v september, me je prisililo, da sem se pogledal
11:57
and recalculate my bearings,
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in ponovno razmislil o mojih navadah.
11:59
and to go back into some of the work, some of the stuff I'd written
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2222
Da sem se vrnil k nekaterim stvarem, ki sem jih napisal,
12:01
and some of the exchanges I'd had with the officials
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2269
in izmenjavam mnenj, ki sem jih imel z uradniki,
12:03
to see what was really what.
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2004
da bi videl, kaj je bilo kaj.
12:05
As we say in Trinidad and Tobago, who is who and what is what?
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4110
Kot pravimo v Trinidadu in Tobagu, kdo je kdo in kaj je kaj?
12:09
Okay? We want to try to recalculate.
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1824
Moramo poskusiti ponovno razmisliti.
12:11
And I made a Freedom of Information application
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2424
Tako sem napisal vlogo za Svobodo o informacijah
12:14
in May this year to the Ministry of Finance.
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maja letos za finančno ministrstvo.
12:17
The Ministry of Finance is the next tower over.
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2058
Finančno ministrstvo se nahaja v naslednji stolpnici.
12:20
This is the other context.
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1675
To je drugi kontekst.
12:21
The Ministry of Finance, we are told,
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Finančno ministrstvo, kot so nam povedali,
12:23
is subject to the provisions of the Freedom of Information Act.
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je odvisno od določb Zakona o svobodi informacij.
12:27
I'm going to take you through a worked example of whether that's really so.
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3304
Razložil vam bom predelan primer,
ki bo pokazal, če je temu res tako.
ki bo pokazal, če je temu res tako.
12:30
The Central Bank in which we stand this morning
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Centralna Banka, v kateri se nahajamo danes,
12:33
is immune from the provisions of the Freedom of Information Act.
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4197
je imuna na določbe tega zakona.
12:37
So in fact, you can't ask them anything,
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Torej, ne morete jih vprašati kar česarkoli,
12:39
and they don't have to answer anything.
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1693
njim pa ni treba na nič odgovoriti.
12:41
That is the law since 1999.
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2822
To je uzakonjeno od leta 1999.
12:44
So I plunged into this struggle, and I asked four questions.
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3576
Tako sem se pognal v ta problem in zastavil štiri vprašanja.
12:47
And I'll relate the questions to you in the short form with the reply,
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3689
Delil bom ta vprašanja z vami v kratki obliki in z odgovorom,
12:51
so you could understand, as I said, where we are.
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2615
da boste lahko razumeli, kot sem rekel, kje smo.
12:54
Here is not like anywhere else.
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1521
Tu ni kot nikjer drugod.
12:55
Question number one:
269
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2978
Vprašanje številka ena:
12:58
I asked to see the accounts of CL Financial,
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2590
Zaprosil sem za vpogled v račune družbe CL Financial,
13:01
and if you can't show me the accounts --
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in če mi jih ne morete pokazati -
13:03
the Minister of Finance is making statements,
272
767723
1965
finančni minister podaja izjave,
13:05
passing new laws and giving speeches and so on.
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2615
sprejema nove zakone, daje govore in tako naprej.
13:08
What are the figures he's relying on?
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2291
Na kakšne številke se nanaša on?
13:10
It's like that joke: I want whatever he's drinking.
275
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2620
Kot tista šala: "Dajte mi to, kar pije on."
13:13
And they wrote back and said to me,
276
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1599
Odpisali so mi in me vprašali:
13:14
well what do you really mean?
277
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1711
"Na kaj se pa nanašate?"
13:16
So they hit my question with a question.
278
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2391
Na moje vprašanje so odgovorili z vprašanjem.
13:18
Second point: I want to see
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3121
Drugo vprašanje: Rad bi videl
13:21
who are the creditors of the group who have been repaid?
280
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3699
kdo so poplačani upniki te družbe?
13:25
Let me pause here to point out to you all
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2004
Tu se bom ustavil, da izpostavim,
13:27
that 24 billion dollars of our money has been spent on this.
282
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3681
da je bilo 24 milijard našega denarja porabljenega za to.
13:31
That is about three and a half billion U.S. dollars
283
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2399
To je približno tri in pol milijarde ameriških dolarjev,
13:33
coming out of a small -- we used to be resource-rich --
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3496
ki so prišli iz majhne - včasih smo imeli veliko naravnih virov -
13:37
Caribbean country. Okay?
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2372
karibske države.
13:39
And I asked the question,
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1548
Zastavil sem vprašanje,
13:41
who was getting that three and a half billion dollars?
287
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4146
kdo je dobil tistih tri in pol milijard dolarjev?
13:45
And I want to pause again to bring up context,
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2257
Rad bi se ustavil še enkrat, da dobimo kontekst,
13:47
because context helps us to get clarity understanding this thing.
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3403
ki nam bo pomagal jasno razumeti to stvar.
13:50
There's a particular individual who is in the government now.
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2570
Trenutno je v vladi določen posameznik.
13:53
The name of the person doesn't matter.
291
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1720
Njegovo ime ni pomembno.
13:55
And that person made a career
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2552
Ta oseba je ustvarila kariero
13:57
out of using the Freedom of Information Act
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2361
z izkoriščanjem Zakona o svobodi o informacijah
14:00
to advance his political cause.
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2119
za svoje politične interese.
14:02
Okay? His name isn't important.
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3243
Njegovo ime ni pomembno.
14:05
I wouldn't dignify it. I'm on a point.
296
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2333
Ne bi ga počastil s tem. Hočem posredovati bistvo.
14:07
The point is, that person made a career out of using
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2420
Bistvo je, da je ta oseba ustvarila celotno kariero z ukrivljanjem
14:10
the Freedom of Information Act to advance his cause.
298
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2964
tega zakona za svoje interese.
14:13
And the most famous case
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2314
Najbolj slaven primer
14:15
was what we came to call the Secret Scholarship Scandal,
300
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2893
je bil primer, ki ga danes imenujemo Škandal skrivne štipendije,
14:18
where in fact there was about 60 million dollars in government money
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2889
ko je bilo približno 60 milijonov vladnega denarja
14:21
that had been dispersed in a series of scholarships,
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2872
razdeljenega v vrsto štipendij,
14:24
and the scholarships hadn't been advertised, and so and so on and so on.
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2724
teh štipendij pa sploh niso oglaševali, in tako naprej.
14:26
And he was able to get the court, using that act of Parliament,
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2991
S pomočjo tistega zakona parlamenta
mu je uspelo prisiliti sodišče,
mu je uspelo prisiliti sodišče,
14:29
Freedom of Information Act,
305
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1633
z Zakonom o svobodi informacij,
14:31
to release the information,
306
855639
1977
da je razkrilo podatke.
14:33
and I thought that was excellent.
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3365
To se mi je zdelo odlično.
14:36
Fantastic.
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3166
Izvrstno.
14:40
But you see, the question is this:
309
864147
1950
Pa vendar, vprašanje je sledeče:
14:41
If it's right and proper for us to use the Freedom of Information Act
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4213
Če je prav, da izrabimo Zakon o svobodi informacij,
14:46
and to use the court
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3730
da izrabimo sodišče,
14:49
to force a disclosure about 60 million dollars in public money,
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4742
in tako prisilimo razkritje
60 milijonov dolarjev javnega denarja,
60 milijonov dolarjev javnega denarja,
14:54
it must be right and proper
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1691
mora biti prav in pravilno,
14:56
for us to force a disclosure about 24 billion dollars.
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4141
da prisilimo razkritje 24 milijonov dolarjev.
15:00
You see? But the Ministry of Finance,
315
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2588
Vidite? Ministrstvo za finance,
15:03
the Permanent Secretary of the Ministry of Finance,
316
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1602
njegov predstavnik
15:04
wrote me and said to me, that information is exempt too.
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3057
mi je pisal in mi rekel, da je ta podatek prav tako izvzet.
15:07
You see? This is what we're dealing with, okay?
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2989
Vidite? S tem se ukvarjamo.
15:10
The third thing I will tell you
319
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2134
Tretja stvar, ki vam jo bom povedal, je,
15:12
is that I also asked
320
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3005
da sem vprašal tudi,
15:15
for the directors of CL Financial,
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2996
če so direktorji družbe CL Financial
15:18
whether in fact they were making filings under our Integrity in Public Life Act.
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4345
shranjevali dokumente v skladu z Zakonom o integriteti javnega življenja.
15:23
We have an Integrity in Public Life Act
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1618
Imamo Zakon o integriteti javnega življenja,
15:24
as part of our framework supposed to safeguard the nation's interest.
324
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4749
ki je del našega okvira varovanja nacionalnih interesov.
15:29
And public officials are supposed to file
325
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2288
Javni funkcionarji pa morajo dokumentirati vse,
15:31
to say what it is they have in terms of assets and liabilities.
326
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6465
da lahko povejo kakšne prednosti in slabosti imajo.
15:38
And of course I've since discovered that they're not filing,
327
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2415
Od takrat pa sem seveda ugotovil, da tega ne delajo,
15:40
and in fact the Minister of Finance has not even asked them to file.
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2879
da jih finančni minister ni tega niti prosil.
15:43
So here we have it. We have a situation where
329
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4917
To je to. Imamo situacijo,
15:48
the basic safeguards of integrity and accountability
330
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4894
kjer je bilo vse, kar naj bi varovalo našo integriteto, odgovornost
15:53
and transparency have all been discarded.
331
937555
1993
in transparentnost, zavrženo.
15:55
I've asked the question in the legal and required fashion.
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2244
Vprašanje sem postavil v okviru pravnih in zahtevanih pravil.
15:57
It's been ignored.
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Bilo je ignorirano.
16:00
The sort of thing that motivated us around Section 34,
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Moramo nadaljevati na tem, kar nas je motiviralo
16:03
we need to continue to work on that. We can't forget it.
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pri Poglavju 34. Ne smemo pozabiti.
16:05
I have defined this as the single largest expenditure in the country's history.
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Ta primer sem opredelil kot največji izdatek v zgodovini države.
16:09
It's also the single largest example
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Je tudi največji primer
16:12
of public corruption according to this equation.
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javne korupcije glede na to enačbo.
16:17
And this is my reality check.
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To me je postavilo na svoje mesto.
16:20
Where you have an expenditure of public money
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Ko imate izdatek javnega denarja,
16:22
and it is without accountability
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ki je brez odgovornosti
16:25
and it's without transparency,
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in brez transparentnosti,
16:27
it will always be equal to corruption,
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bo ta izdatek vedno enak korupciji.
16:29
whether you're in Russia or Nigeria or Alaska,
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Vseeno ali ste v Rusiji, Nigeriji ali na Aljaski,
16:32
it will always be equal to corruption, and that is what we are dealing with here.
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vedno bo enak korupciji, o tem govorimo danes.
16:36
I'm going to continue the work
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Nadaljeval bom svoje delo,
16:39
to press on, to get some resolution
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še naprej bom vztrajal za nove resolucije
16:43
of those matters at the Ministry of Finance.
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tistih zadev na finančnem ministrstvu.
16:45
If it is I have to go to court personally, I will do that.
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Če bom moral osebno na sodišče, bom šel.
16:47
We will continue to press on.
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Vztrajali bomo še naprej.
16:48
We will continue to work within JCC.
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Nadaljevali bomo naše delo z JCC.
16:50
But I want to step back from the Trinidad and Tobago context
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Rad pa bi se malo oddaljil od Trinidada in Tobaga
16:53
and bring something new to the table
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in dodal nekaj novega,
16:55
in terms of an international example.
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primer mednarodnega kova.
16:57
We had the journalist [Heather] Brooke speaking
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Novinarka Rebecca Brooke nam je govorila
17:00
about her battle against government corruption,
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o njenem boju proti vladni korupciji,
17:02
and she introduced me to this website, Alaveteli.com.
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seznanila me je s spletno stranjo, Alaveteli.com.
17:07
And Alaveteli.com is a way for us to have an open database
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Alaveteli.com nam omogoča odprto podatkovno bazo
17:12
for Freedom of Information applications,
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za vloge za svobodo informacij
17:15
and speak with each other.
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in medsebojni dialog.
17:17
I could see what you're applying for.
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Lahko vidim, za kaj se zavzemate.
17:19
You could see what I applied for and what replies I got.
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Vi lahko vidite, za kaj sem se zavzel jaz in kakšne odzive sem dobil.
17:23
We can work on it together. We need to build a collective database
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Na tem lahko delamo skupaj.
Ustvariti moramo kolektivno podatkovno bazo
Ustvariti moramo kolektivno podatkovno bazo
17:26
and a collective understanding of where we are to go to the next point.
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in kolektivno razumevanje, kam moramo do naslednje točke.
17:29
We need to increase the consciousness.
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Povečati moramo zavedanje.
17:31
The final thing I want to say is in relation to this one,
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Zadnja stvar, ki bi jo rad omenil je v povezavi s tem,
17:35
which is a lovely website from India
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je ta zelo lepa indijska spletna stran,
17:36
called IPaidABribe.com.
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ki se imenuje IPaidABribe.com.
17:39
They have international branches,
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Imajo mednarodne podružnice,
17:41
and it's important for us to tune into this one.
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za nas pa je pomembno, da jo spremljamo.
17:43
IPaidABribe.com is really important,
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Spletna stran IPaidABribe.com je zelo pomembna,
17:46
a good one to log on to and see.
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priporočam prijavo in ogled.
17:48
I'm going to pause there. I'm going to ask you for your courage.
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Tu se bom ustavil. Prosil vas bom za pogum.
17:51
Discard the first myth; it is a crime.
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Zavržite prvo neresnico; korupcija je zločin.
17:53
Discard the second myth; it is a big thing.
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Zavržite drugo neresnico; korupcija je resna stvar.
17:55
It's a huge problem. It's an economic crime.
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Je ogromen problem. Je gospodarski zločin.
17:58
And let us continue working together
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Nadaljujmo s skupnim delom
18:00
to betterment in this situation,
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za izboljšavo te situacije,
18:01
stability and sustainability in our society. Thank you.
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za stabilnost in trajnost v naši družbi. Hvala.
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Afra Raymond - Transparency activistA leading expert in the fields of property valuation and project management, Afra Raymond is battling the government corruption rampant in his country, Trinidad and Tobago.
Why you should listen
Afra Raymond calls out government corruption, demanding more transparency and accountability from the leaders of Trinidad and Tobago. His work in recent years has focused on the CL Financial collapse of 2009 and subsequent government bailout, which Raymond says operated “with different laws of physics” than bailouts of financial institutions in other countries. Writing on topics like white-collar crime, good governance and national development, Raymond shows that corruption shouldn't be a given. He wrote the column “Property Matters” in The Business Guardian from 2004 through 2012. Now, he writes on his own website, AfraRaymond.com.
Raymond looks at corruption through his lens as an expert in the fields of property valuation, project appraisal, development planning and management. He is a Chartered Surveyor and Managing Director of Raymond & Pierre Limited and was elected a Fellow of the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors (RICS) in January 2011. He has served on a number of Boards in various positions including Executive Member of the Federation of Black Housing Organizations (FBHO) in London, Board member of the Trinidad Building & Loan Association (TBLA), Director of EPL Properties Limited (EPL), a wholly-owned subsidiary of Eastern Credit Union (ECU) and Immediate Past-President of the Institute of Surveyors of Trinidad & Tobago (ISTT).
Afra Raymond | Speaker | TED.com