TEDxBoston
Steve Ramirez and Xu Liu: A mouse. A laser beam. A manipulated memory.
Steve Ramirez og Xu Liu: En mus. En laserstråle. Et manipuleret minde.
Filmed:
Readability: 4.1
1,127,889 views
Kan vi redigere vores minders indhold? Det er et spørgsmål farvet af sci-fi, som Steve Ramirez og Xu Liu stiller i deres laboratorium ved MIT. Dybest set, skyder de to en laserstråle ind i hjernen på en levende mus for at aktivere og manipulere dens minde. I dette overraskende underholdende foredrag deler de ikke kun hvordan, men -- endnu vigtigere -- hvorfor de gør dette. (Filmet ved TEDxBoston.)
Steve Ramirez - Neuroscientist
When Steve Ramirez published his latest study in Science, it caused a media frenzy. Why? Because the paper was on implanting false memories in the brains of mice. Full bioXu Liu - Neuroscientist
In his groundbreaking work, Xu Liu investigated how to activate and deactivate specific memories in mice. Full bio
When Steve Ramirez published his latest study in Science, it caused a media frenzy. Why? Because the paper was on implanting false memories in the brains of mice. Full bioXu Liu - Neuroscientist
In his groundbreaking work, Xu Liu investigated how to activate and deactivate specific memories in mice. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
Steve Ramirez: My first year of grad school,
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Steve Ramirez: Mit første år på universitetet,
00:13
I found myself in my bedroom
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sad jeg mig tit i mit soveværelse
00:15
eating lots of Ben & Jerry's
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og spiste masser af Ben & Jerry's
00:18
watching some trashy TV
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og så nogle dårlige tv udsendelser
00:19
and maybe, maybe listening to Taylor Swift.
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og måske, måske lyttede jeg til Taylor Swift.
00:23
I had just gone through a breakup.
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Jeg var lige kommet ud af et forhold.
00:24
(Laughter)
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(Latter)
00:26
So for the longest time, all I would do
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Så i lang tid, var det eneste jeg gjorde
00:28
is recall the memory of this person over and over again,
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at huske på et minde om denne person igen og igen,
00:32
wishing that I could get rid of that gut-wrenching,
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og ønskede at jeg kunne slippe for den pinefulde,
00:34
visceral "blah" feeling.
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indre "blah" følelse.
00:37
Now, as it turns out, I'm a neuroscientist,
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Nu er det sådan, at jeg er neurolog,
00:39
so I knew that the memory of that person
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så jeg vidste at mindet om den person
00:42
and the awful, emotional undertones that color in that memory,
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og de forfærdelige, følelsesmæssige undertoner der farver det minde,
00:45
are largely mediated by separate brain systems.
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stort set er formidlet af forskellige systemer i hjernen.
00:47
And so I thought, what if we could go into the brain
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Så jeg tænkte, hvad hvis vi kunne gå ind i hjernen
00:50
and edit out that nauseating feeling
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og fjerne den kvalmende følelse
00:52
but while keeping the memory of that person intact?
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men mens vi holder mindet om den person intakt?
00:55
Then I realized, maybe that's a little bit lofty for now.
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Så blev jeg klar over, at det måske var lige ambitiøst nok på det tidspunkt.
00:57
So what if we could start off by going into the brain
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Så hvis vi kunne starte med at gå ind i hjernen
01:00
and just finding a single memory to begin with?
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og bare finde et enkelt minde til at starte med?
01:03
Could we jump-start that memory back to life,
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Kunne vi kickstarte det minde,
01:05
maybe even play with the contents of that memory?
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måske endda lege med indholdet af det minde?
01:09
All that said, there is one person in the entire world right now
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Når det så er sagt, er der én person i hele verden lige nu
01:11
that I really hope is not watching this talk.
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som jeg virkelig håber på ikke ser dette foredrag.
01:13
(Laughter)
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(Latter)
01:17
So there is a catch. There is a catch.
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Men der en hage ved det. Der er en hage.
01:20
These ideas probably remind you of "Total Recall,"
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Disse ideer minder jer sikkert om "Total Recall"
01:23
"Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind,"
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"Evigt Solskin i et Pletfrit Sind,"
01:25
or of "Inception."
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eller "Inception."
01:27
But the movie stars that we work with
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Men de filmstjerner vi arbejder med
01:28
are the celebrities of the lab.
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er laboratoriernes kendisser.
01:30
Xu Liu: Test mice.
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Xu Liu: Testmus.
01:32
(Laughter)
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(Latter)
01:33
As neuroscientists, we work in the lab with mice
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Som neurologer, arbejder vi i laboratoriet med mus
01:36
trying to understand how memory works.
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og prøver at forstå hvordan hukommelsen fungerer.
01:40
And today, we hope to convince you that now
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Og i dag, håber vi at vi kan overbevise jer om at
01:42
we are actually able to activate a memory in the brain
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vi faktisk er i stand til at aktivere et minde i hjernen
01:45
at the speed of light.
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med lysets hastighed.
01:48
To do this, there's only two simple steps to follow.
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For at gøre dette, er der kun to simple skridt at følge.
01:51
First, you find and label a memory in the brain,
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For det første, finder og mærker man et minde i hjernen,
01:54
and then you activate it with a switch.
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og så aktiverer man det med en kontakt.
01:58
As simple as that.
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Så simpelt er det.
01:59
(Laughter)
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(Latter)
02:01
SR: Are you convinced?
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SR: Er I overbevist?
02:03
So, turns out finding a memory in the brain isn't all that easy.
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Det viser sig, at det faktisk slet ikke er så nemt at finde et minde i hjernen.
02:07
XL: Indeed. This is way more difficult than, let's say,
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XL: Bestemt. Dette er meget sværere end, lad os sige,
02:09
finding a needle in a haystack,
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at finde en nål i en høstak,
02:12
because at least, you know, the needle is still something
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fordi i det mindste, I ved, er nålen noget som man fysisk
02:14
you can physically put your fingers on.
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kan tage fat i.
02:17
But memory is not.
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Men det er hukommelsen ikke.
02:19
And also, there's way more cells in your brain
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Derudover, der er væsentlig flere celler i hjernen
02:22
than the number of straws in a typical haystack.
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end antallet af halmstrå i en typisk høstak.
02:27
So yeah, this task does seem to be daunting.
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Så ja, denne opgave ser enorm ud.
02:30
But luckily, we got help from the brain itself.
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Men heldigvis, fik vi hjælp fra selve hjernen.
02:34
It turned out that all we need to do is basically
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Det viste sig at det eneste vi skulle gøre, dybest set er
02:36
to let the brain form a memory,
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at lade hjernen forme et minde,
02:38
and then the brain will tell us which cells are involved
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og så vil hjernen fortælle os hvilke celler der er involverede
02:42
in that particular memory.
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i det bestemte minde.
02:44
SR: So what was going on in my brain
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SR: Hvad sker der i min hjerne
02:46
while I was recalling the memory of an ex?
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mens jeg fandt mindet om en ekskæreste frem?
02:48
If you were to just completely ignore human ethics for a second
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Hvis man fuldstændig skulle ignorere menneskelig etik et øjeblik
02:51
and slice up my brain right now,
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og skære min hjerne i skiver lige nu,
02:52
you would see that there was an amazing number
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ville man se at der var et utroligt antal
02:54
of brain regions that were active while recalling that memory.
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regioner i hjernen der var aktive mens mindet blev fundet frem.
02:57
Now one brain region that would be robustly active
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En region i hjernen der især er aktiv
03:00
in particular is called the hippocampus,
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kaldes hippocampus,
03:02
which for decades has been implicated in processing
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som i årtier er blevet impliceret i det at behandle
03:05
the kinds of memories that we hold near and dear,
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den slags minder vi har kær,
03:07
which also makes it an ideal target to go into
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hvilket også gør den til et ideelt mål til at gå ind i
03:10
and to try and find and maybe reactivate a memory.
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og prøve at finde og måske reaktivere et minde.
03:13
XL: When you zoom in into the hippocampus,
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XL: Når man zoomer ind i hippocampus,
03:15
of course you will see lots of cells,
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vil man selvfølgelig se mange celler,
03:17
but we are able to find which cells are involved
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men vi er i stand til at finde ud af hvilke celler der er involveret
03:20
in a particular memory,
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i et bestemt minde,
03:22
because whenever a cell is active,
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fordi når en celle er aktiv,
03:24
like when it's forming a memory,
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som når den former et minde,
03:26
it will also leave a footprint that will later allow us to know
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vil den også efterlade et fodaftryk der senere vil tillade os at vide
03:30
these cells are recently active.
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at disse celler var aktive for nyligt.
03:32
SR: So the same way that building lights at night
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SR: Så på samme måde som en bygnings lys om natten
03:34
let you know that somebody's probably working there at any given moment,
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lader en vide at der stadig er nogen
der arbejder der på et givent tidspunkt,
der arbejder der på et givent tidspunkt,
03:37
in a very real sense, there are biological sensors
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på en meget virkelig måde, er der biologiske sensorer
03:41
within a cell that are turned on
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inden i en celle der er tændt
03:43
only when that cell was just working.
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udelukkende når den celle bare arbejder.
03:45
They're sort of biological windows that light up
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De er en slags biologiske vinduer der lyser op
03:47
to let us know that that cell was just active.
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for at lade os vide at den celle lige var aktiv.
03:49
XL: So we clipped part of this sensor,
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XL: Så vi mærkede en del af denne sensor,
03:51
and attached that to a switch to control the cells,
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og fastgjorde den til en kontakt til at kontrollere cellerne,
03:55
and we packed this switch into an engineered virus
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og vi pakkede denne kontakt ind i en designet virus
03:59
and injected that into the brain of the mice.
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og indsprøjtede den ind i hjernen på mus.
04:01
So whenever a memory is being formed,
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Så når et minde bliver dannet,
04:04
any active cells for that memory
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vil alle aktive celler til det minde
04:06
will also have this switch installed.
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også have installeret en kontakt.
04:09
SR: So here is what the hippocampus looks like
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SR: Her er et billede over hvordan hippocampus ser ud
04:10
after forming a fear memory, for example.
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efter at have formet et minde om frygt, for eksempel.
04:13
The sea of blue that you see here
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Det hav af blå man kan se her
04:15
are densely packed brain cells,
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er tæt pakket med hjerneceller,
04:17
but the green brain cells,
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men de grønne hjerneceller,
04:19
the green brain cells are the ones that are holding on
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de grønne hjerneceller er dem der holder fast på
04:21
to a specific fear memory.
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et specifikt minde om frygt.
04:23
So you are looking at the crystallization
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Så man ser på krystaliseringen
04:25
of the fleeting formation of fear.
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af den flygtende information om frygt.
04:27
You're actually looking at the cross-section of a memory right now.
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Man ser faktisk på tværsnittet af et minde lige nu.
04:31
XL: Now, for the switch we have been talking about,
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XL: Med hensyn til den kontakt vi har snakket om,
04:33
ideally, the switch has to act really fast.
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ideelt set, skal kontakten fungere virkelig hurtigt.
04:36
It shouldn't take minutes or hours to work.
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Det bør ikke tage minutter eller timer før det fungerer.
04:39
It should act at the speed of the brain, in milliseconds.
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Det bør fungere ved hjernens hastighed, i millisekunder.
04:43
SR: So what do you think, Xu?
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SR: Så hvad mener du, Xu?
04:44
Could we use, let's say, pharmacological drugs
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Kunne vi bruge, for eksempel, farmakologiske lægemidler
04:47
to activate or inactivate brain cells?
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til at aktivere eller inaktivere hjerneceller?
04:49
XL: Nah. Drugs are pretty messy. They spread everywhere.
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XL: Nej. Lægemidler er temmelig rodede. De spreder sig over det hele.
04:53
And also it takes them forever to act on cells.
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Og det tager dem også en evighed at agere på cellerne.
04:56
So it will not allow us to control a memory in real time.
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Så det vil ikke tillade os at kontrollere et minde i realtid.
05:00
So Steve, how about let's zap the brain with electricity?
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Steve, hvad med at vi støder hjernen med noget strøm?
05:04
SR: So electricity is pretty fast,
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SR: Elektricitet er temmelig hurtig.
05:06
but we probably wouldn't be able to target it
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men vi vil nok ikke være i stand til at ramme
05:08
to just the specific cells that hold onto a memory,
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præcis de rigtig celler der holder fast i et minde,
05:10
and we'd probably fry the brain.
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og vi ville sikkert stege hjernen.
05:12
XL: Oh. That's true. So it looks like, hmm,
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XL: Oh. Det er sandt. Det ser altså ud til, hmm,
05:15
indeed we need to find a better way
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Vi skal finde på en bedre måde
05:18
to impact the brain at the speed of light.
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til at påvirke hjernen med lysets hastighed.
05:21
SR: So it just so happens that light travels at the speed of light.
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SR: Det forholder sig tilfældigvis sådan, at lyset rejser med lysets hastighed.
05:26
So maybe we could activate or inactive memories
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Så måske kunne vi aktivere eller deaktivere minder
05:30
by just using light --
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ved bare at bruge lys --
05:31
XL: That's pretty fast.
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XL: Det er temmelig hurtigt.
05:33
SR: -- and because normally brain cells
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SR: -- og fordi almindelige hjerneceller
05:35
don't respond to pulses of light,
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ikke reagerer på lys pulser,
05:36
so those that would respond to pulses of light
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så dem der ville reagere på lyspulserne
05:38
are those that contain a light-sensitive switch.
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er dem der indeholder en lysfølsom kontakt.
05:41
Now to do that, first we need to trick brain cells
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For at gøre det, skal vi første snyde hjerneceller
05:43
to respond to laser beams.
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til at reagere på laserstråler.
05:44
XL: Yep. You heard it right.
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XL: Yep. Du hørte rigtigt.
05:45
We are trying to shoot lasers into the brain.
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Vi prøver at skyde lasere ind i hjernen.
05:47
(Laughter)
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(Latter)
05:49
SR: And the technique that lets us do that is optogenetics.
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SR: Og teknikken der lader os gøre det er optogenetik.
05:52
Optogenetics gave us this light switch that we can use
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Optogenetik gav os denne lyskontakt som vi kan bruge
05:56
to turn brain cells on or off,
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til at tænde eller slukke for hjerneceller,
05:57
and the name of that switch is channelrhodopsin,
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og navnet på den kontakt er channelrhodopsin,
06:00
seen here as these green dots attached to this brain cell.
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der her kan ses som disse grønne prikker
der sidder fast på denne hjernecelle.
der sidder fast på denne hjernecelle.
06:02
You can think of channelrhodopsin as a sort of light-sensitive switch
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Man kan se på channelrhodopsin
som en slags lysfølsom kontakt
som en slags lysfølsom kontakt
06:05
that can be artificially installed in brain cells
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der kan installeres kunstigt i hjernecellerne
06:08
so that now we can use that switch
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så nu kan vi bruge den kontakt
06:10
to activate or inactivate the brain cell simply by clicking it,
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til at aktivere eller deaktivere hjernecellerne,
ved simpelthen at trykke på den,
ved simpelthen at trykke på den,
06:13
and in this case we click it on with pulses of light.
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og i dette tilfælde klikker vi på den med lys pulser.
06:15
XL: So we attach this light-sensitive switch of channelrhodopsin
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XL: Vi sætter denne lysfølsomme kontakt
i channelrhodopsin fast på
i channelrhodopsin fast på
06:19
to the sensor we've been talking about
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den sensor vi har talt om
06:21
and inject this into the brain.
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og sprøjter dette ind i hjernen.
06:24
So whenever a memory is being formed,
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Så når som helst et minde bliver formet,
06:27
any active cell for that particular memory
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vil enhver aktiv celle til det bestemte minde
06:29
will also have this light-sensitive switch installed in it
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også have installeret denne lysfølsomme i sig
06:33
so that we can control these cells
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så vi kan styre disse celler
06:35
by the flipping of a laser just like this one you see.
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ved at skyde en laser ligesom den I kan se her.
06:39
SR: So let's put all of this to the test now.
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SR: Lad os afprøve det her.
06:42
What we can do is we can take our mice
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Det vi kan gøre er at vi kan tage vores mus
06:44
and then we can put them in a box that looks exactly like this box here,
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og så kan vi sætte dem i en kasse
der ser præcis ud som denne kasse,
der ser præcis ud som denne kasse,
06:47
and then we can give them a very mild foot shock
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og så kan vi give dem et meget mildt chok
06:50
so that they form a fear memory of this box.
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så de kan skabe et minde om frygt for denne kasse.
06:52
They learn that something bad happened here.
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De kan lære at der skete noget dårligt her.
06:54
Now with our system, the cells that are active
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Med vores system, vil de celler der hjælper
06:56
in the hippocampus in the making of this memory,
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i hippocampus med at skabe dette minde,
06:59
only those cells will now contain channelrhodopsin.
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kun de celler vil nu indeholde channelrhodopsin.
07:02
XL: When you are as small as a mouse,
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XL: Når man er så lille som en mus,
07:05
it feels as if the whole world is trying to get you.
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føles det som om hele verden er ude efter en.
07:08
So your best response of defense
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Så ens bedste forsvar
07:10
is trying to be undetected.
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er at prøve at forblive uopdaget.
07:13
Whenever a mouse is in fear,
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Når en mus er bange,
07:15
it will show this very typical behavior
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vil den vise en meget typisk adfærd
07:16
by staying at one corner of the box,
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ved at blive i det ene hjørne af kassen,
07:18
trying to not move any part of its body,
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og prøver på ikke at bevæge sig,
07:21
and this posture is called freezing.
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og denne positur kaldes at fryse.
07:24
So if a mouse remembers that something bad happened in this box,
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Hvis en mus husker at der
skete noget slemt i denne kasse,
skete noget slemt i denne kasse,
07:29
and when we put them back into the same box,
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og når vi sætter dem tilbage i den samme kasse,
07:31
it will basically show freezing
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vil den dybest fryse
07:33
because it doesn't want to be detected
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fordi den ikke vil findes
07:35
by any potential threats in this box.
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af nogen potentiel trussel i denne kasse.
07:38
SR: So you can think of freezing as,
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SR: Så hvis man tænker på at fryse som,
07:40
you're walking down the street minding your own business,
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at man går ned af gaden i sine egne tanker,
07:42
and then out of nowhere you almost run into
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og pludselig løber man næsten ind i
07:43
an ex-girlfriend or ex-boyfriend,
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en ekskæreste,
07:46
and now those terrifying two seconds
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og så kommer de to skrækindjagende sekunder
07:48
where you start thinking, "What do I do? Do I say hi?
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hvor man begynder at tænke,
"Hvad gør jeg? Siger jeg hej?
"Hvad gør jeg? Siger jeg hej?
07:50
Do I shake their hand? Do I turn around and run away?
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Giver jeg hånd? Vender jeg mig om og løber væk?
07:51
Do I sit here and pretend like I don't exist?"
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Sidder jeg her og lader som om jeg ikke findes?"
07:53
Those kinds of fleeting thoughts that physically incapacitate you,
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Den slags flygtige tanker der lammer en fysisk,
07:56
that temporarily give you that deer-in-headlights look.
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der midlertidigt giver en det rådyr-i-forlygternes blik.
07:59
XL: However, if you put the mouse in a completely different
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XL: Men, hvis man sætter musen i en helt anden
08:02
new box, like the next one,
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ny kasse, ligesom den næste,
08:05
it will not be afraid of this box
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vil den ikke være bange for denne kasse
08:08
because there's no reason that it will be afraid of this new environment.
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fordi der er ikke nogen grund til
at være bange for disse nye omgivelser.
at være bange for disse nye omgivelser.
08:12
But what if we put the mouse in this new box
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Men hvad hvis vi putter musen i denne nye kasse
08:15
but at the same time, we activate the fear memory
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men samtidig aktiverer frygt mindet
08:19
using lasers just like we did before?
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ved hjælp af laserne som vi gjorde før?
08:22
Are we going to bring back the fear memory
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Kan vi finde mindet om frygt frem om den første
08:25
for the first box into this completely new environment?
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kasse igen ind i disse helt nye omgivelser?
08:29
SR: All right, and here's the million-dollar experiment.
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SR: Okay, og her er million dollar eksperimentet.
08:31
Now to bring back to life the memory of that day,
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Find nu mindet frem om den dag,
08:34
I remember that the Red Sox had just won,
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jeg husker at Red Sox lige havde vundet,
08:36
it was a green spring day,
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det var en grøn forårsdag,
08:38
perfect for going up and down the river
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den var perfekt til at sejle op og ned af floden
08:40
and then maybe going to the North End
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og måske tage til North End
08:43
to get some cannolis, #justsaying.
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og få nogle cannolis, #jegsigerdetbare.
08:45
Now Xu and I, on the other hand,
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På den anden side, var Xu og jeg
08:48
were in a completely windowless black room
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i et rum uden nogen vinduer
08:51
not making any ocular movement that even remotely resembles an eye blink
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og lavede ikke nogen øjenbevægelser
der på nogen måde ligner et blink med øjet
der på nogen måde ligner et blink med øjet
08:54
because our eyes were fixed onto a computer screen.
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fordi vores øjne var limet fast til en computer skærm.
08:57
We were looking at this mouse here trying to activate a memory
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Vi så på denne mus der prøvede at aktivere et minde
08:59
for the first time using our technique.
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for første gang ved hjælp af vores teknik.
09:01
XL: And this is what we saw.
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XL: Og dette er hvad vi så.
09:04
When we first put the mouse into this box,
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Da vi først puttede musen ned i denne kasse,
09:06
it's exploring, sniffing around, walking around,
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går den på opdagelse, sniffer omkring, går omkring,
09:09
minding its own business,
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passer sig selv,
09:11
because actually by nature,
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fordi mus faktisk af natur,
09:13
mice are pretty curious animals.
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er temmelig nysgerrige dyr.
09:15
They want to know, what's going on in this new box?
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De vil vide, hvad sker der i denne nye kasse?
09:17
It's interesting.
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Det er interessant.
09:19
But the moment we turned on the laser, like you see now,
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Men det øjeblik vi tændte for laseren,
som man kan se nu,
som man kan se nu,
09:22
all of a sudden the mouse entered this freezing mode.
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pludselig går musen i denne frys tilstand.
09:25
It stayed here and tried not to move any part of its body.
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Den blev der og prøvede på ikke at røre sig.
09:30
Clearly it's freezing.
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Den fryser tydeligvis.
09:31
So indeed, it looks like we are able to bring back
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Bestemt, det ser ud til at vi er i stand til at frembringe
09:34
the fear memory for the first box
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mindet om frygt fra den første kasse
09:36
in this completely new environment.
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i disse helt nye omgivelser.
09:39
While watching this, Steve and I
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Mens vi så dette, var Steve og jeg
09:41
are as shocked as the mouse itself.
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lige så chokerede som musen.
09:44
(Laughter)
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(Latter)
09:45
So after the experiment, the two of us just left the room
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Efter eksperimentet, forlod vi begge to lokalet
09:48
without saying anything.
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uden at sige noget.
09:50
After a kind of long, awkward period of time,
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Efter en lang, akavet periode,
09:53
Steve broke the silence.
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brød Steve tavsheden.
09:55
SR: "Did that just work?"
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SR: "Virkede det lige?"
09:58
XL: "Yes," I said. "Indeed it worked!"
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XL: "Ja," sagde jeg. "Det virkede bestemt!"
10:01
We're really excited about this.
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Vi er virkelig begejstrede for dette.
10:03
And then we published our findings
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Og så udgav vi vores resultater
10:05
in the journal Nature.
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i tidsskriftet Nature.
10:07
Ever since the publication of our work,
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Lige siden udgivelsen af vores arbejde,
10:10
we've been receiving numerous comments
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har vi modtaget adskillige kommentarer
10:12
from all over the Internet.
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fra hele internettet.
10:14
Maybe we can take a look at some of those.
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Måske kan vi se på nogle af dem.
10:18
["OMGGGGG FINALLY... so much more to come, virtual reality, neural manipulation, visual dream emulation... neural coding, 'writing and re-writing of memories', mental illnesses. Ahhh the future is awesome"]
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[OMGGGGG ENDELIG … der kommer så meget mere, virtual reality, neural manipulation, visuel drømme emulering… neural kodning, "skrivning og omskrivning af minder", mental sygdom. Ahhh, fremtiden er fed]
10:20
SR: So the first thing that you'll notice is that people
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SR: Den første ting man lægger mærke ting er at mennesker
10:22
have really strong opinions about this kind of work.
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har virkelig stærke meninger om denne slags arbejde.
10:25
Now I happen to completely agree with the optimism
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Nu er jeg fuldstændig enig med optimismen
10:28
of this first quote,
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i det første citat,
10:29
because on a scale of zero to Morgan Freeman's voice,
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fordi på en skala fra nul til Morgan Freemans stemme,
10:31
it happens to be one of the most evocative accolades
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er det en af de mest stemningsvækkende anerkendelser
10:34
that I've heard come our way.
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som jeg har hørt komme i vores retning.
10:35
(Laughter)
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(Latter)
10:37
But as you'll see, it's not the only opinion that's out there.
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Men som I ser, er det ikke kun meninger der er derude.
10:39
["This scares the hell out of me... What if they could do that easily in humans in a couple of years?! OH MY GOD WE'RE DOOMED"]
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["Dette skræmmer mig fra vid og sans… Hvad hvis de kunne gøre det ved mennesker om et par år?" ÅH GUD VI ER FORTABT"]
10:41
XL: Indeed, if we take a look at the second one,
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XL: Bestemt, hvis vi kigger på den anden,
10:43
I think we can all agree that it's, meh,
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tror jeg vi alle kan blive enige om at det er, meh,
10:45
probably not as positive.
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nok ikke så positiv.
10:47
But this also reminds us that,
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men det minder os også om at,
10:49
although we are still working with mice,
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selvom vi stadig arbejder med mus,
10:52
it's probably a good idea to start thinking and discussing
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er det sikkert en god ide at begynde at tænke på og diskutere
10:55
about the possible ethical ramifications
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om de mulige etiske følger
10:58
of memory control.
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af at kontrollere minder.
11:00
SR: Now, in the spirit of the third quote,
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SR: I den tredje citats ånd,
11:02
we want to tell you about a recent project that we've been
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vil vi fortælle jer om et nyligt projekt som vi har arbejdet
11:04
working on in lab that we've called Project Inception.
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på i laboratoriet som vi har kaldt Project Inception.
11:07
["They should make a movie about this. Where they plant ideas into peoples minds, so they can control them for their own personal gain. We'll call it: Inception."]
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["De skulle lave en film om dette. Hvor de planter ideer i folks sind, så de kan kontrollere dem for personlig vinding. Vi kalder det: Inception."]
11:10
So we reasoned that now that we can reactivate a memory,
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Vi konkluderede at nu hvor vi kan reaktivere et minde,
11:14
what if we do so but then begin to tinker with that memory?
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hvad hvis vi gør det men begynder at pille ved det minde?
11:17
Could we possibly even turn it into a false memory?
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Kunne vi måske endda vende det til et forkert minde?
11:20
XL: So all memory is sophisticated and dynamic,
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XL: Alle minder er sofistikerede og dynamiske,
11:24
but if just for simplicity, let's imagine memory
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men bare for enkelheden, lad os forestille os minder
11:27
as a movie clip.
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som et filmklip.
11:28
So far what we've told you is basically we can control
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Det vi har fortalt jer indtil videre er dybest set at vi kan styre
11:31
this "play" button of the clip
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denne "play" knap på klippet
11:33
so that we can play this video clip any time, anywhere.
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så vi kan afspille dette videoklip når som helst, hvor som helst.
11:37
But is there a possibility that we can actually get
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Men er der en mulighed for at vi faktisk kan gå
11:40
inside the brain and edit this movie clip
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ind i hjernen og redigere dette filmklip
11:43
so that we can make it different from the original?
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så vi kan gøre det forskelligt fra originalen?
11:46
Yes we can.
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Ja, det kan vi.
11:48
Turned out that all we need to do is basically
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Det viser sig at det eneste vi skal gøre er dybest set
11:50
reactivate a memory using lasers just like we did before,
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at reaktivere mindet ved hjælp af lasere ligesom vi gjorde før,
11:54
but at the same time, if we present new information
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men samtidig, hvis vi præsenterer ny information
11:58
and allow this new information to incorporate into this old memory,
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og tillader at denne nye information
bliver integreret i dette gamle minde,
bliver integreret i dette gamle minde,
12:02
this will change the memory.
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dette vil ændre mindet.
12:04
It's sort of like making a remix tape.
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Det er lidt ligesom at lave et remix bånd.
12:08
SR: So how do we do this?
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SR: Hvordan gør vi dette?
12:11
Rather than finding a fear memory in the brain,
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I stedet for at finde et minde om frygt i hjernen,
12:13
we can start by taking our animals,
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kan vi starte med at tage vores dyr,
12:14
and let's say we put them in a blue box like this blue box here
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og lad os sige at vi putter dem i en
blå kasse som denne blå kasse her
blå kasse som denne blå kasse her
12:17
and we find the brain cells that represent that blue box
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og vi finder de hjerneceller der repræsenterer den blå kasse
12:20
and we trick them to respond to pulses of light
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og vi snyder dem til at reagere på lys pulser
12:22
exactly like we had said before.
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præcis som vi sagde før.
12:24
Now the next day, we can take our animals and place them
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Dagen efter, kan vi tage vores dyr og placere dem
12:26
in a red box that they've never experienced before.
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i en rød kasse som de aldrig har oplevet før.
12:29
We can shoot light into the brain to reactivate
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Vi kan skyde lys ind i hjernen for at reaktivere
12:31
the memory of the blue box.
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mindet om den blå kasse.
12:33
So what would happen here if, while the animal
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Hvad ville der ske her hvis, mens dyrene
12:35
is recalling the memory of the blue box,
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erindrer mindet om den blå kasse,
12:36
we gave it a couple of mild foot shocks?
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gav vi den et par milde chok?
12:39
So here we're trying to artificially make an association
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Her prøver vi kunstigt at lave en association
12:42
between the memory of the blue box
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mellem mindet om den blå kasse
12:44
and the foot shocks themselves.
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og selve chokkene.
12:45
We're just trying to connect the two.
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Vi prøver bare at forbinde de to.
12:47
So to test if we had done so,
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For at teste om vi havde gjort det,
12:49
we can take our animals once again
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kan vi tage vores dyr igen,
12:50
and place them back in the blue box.
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og placere dem tilbage i den blå kasse.
12:52
Again, we had just reactivated the memory of the blue box
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Igen, vi havde lige reaktiveret mindet om den blå kasse
12:55
while the animal got a couple of mild foot shocks,
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mens dyrene fik et par milde chok,
12:57
and now the animal suddenly freezes.
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og nu fryser dyret pludseligt.
12:59
It's as though it's recalling being mildly shocked in this environment
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Det er som om den erindrer at få
et mildt chok i disse omgivelser
et mildt chok i disse omgivelser
13:02
even though that never actually happened.
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selvom det faktisk aldrig skete.
13:05
So it formed a false memory,
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Den formede altså et falsk minde,
13:07
because it's falsely fearing an environment
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fordi den fejlagtigt frygter omgivelser
13:09
where, technically speaking,
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hvor, teknisk set,
13:10
nothing bad actually happened to it.
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der faktisk ikke skete noget med den.
13:13
XL: So, so far we are only talking about
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XL: Så indtil videre taler vi kun om
13:15
this light-controlled "on" switch.
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denne lys kontrollerede "tænd" kontakt.
13:18
In fact, we also have a light-controlled "off" switch,
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Faktisk, har vi faktisk også en lys kontrolleret "sluk" knap,
13:21
and it's very easy to imagine that
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og det er meget nemt at forestille sig at
13:23
by installing this light-controlled "off" switch,
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ved at installere denne lys kontrollerede "sluk" knap,
13:25
we can also turn off a memory, any time, anywhere.
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vi kan også slukke for et minde,
til hver en tid, hvor som helst.
til hver en tid, hvor som helst.
13:31
So everything we've been talking about today
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Alt vi har talt om i dag,
13:33
is based on this philosophically charged principle of neuroscience
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er baseret på disse filosofisk ladede
principper om neurovidenskab
principper om neurovidenskab
13:38
that the mind, with its seemingly mysterious properties,
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at sindet, med dets tilsyneladende mystiske egenskaber,
13:42
is actually made of physical stuff that we can tinker with.
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faktisk er lavet af fysiske ting som vi kan pille ved.
13:46
SR: And for me personally,
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SR: Og for mig personligt,
13:47
I see a world where we can reactivate
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ser jeg en verden hvor vi kan reaktivere
13:49
any kind of memory that we'd like.
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et hvilket som helst minde vi vil.
13:51
I also see a world where we can erase unwanted memories.
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Jeg ser også en verden hvor vi kan slette uønskede minder.
13:54
Now, I even see a world where editing memories
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Jeg ser endda en verden hvor det at redigere minder
13:56
is something of a reality,
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er en virkelighed,
13:58
because we're living in a time where it's possible
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fordi vi lever i en tid hvor det er muligt
13:59
to pluck questions from the tree of science fiction
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at plukke spørgsmål fra science fiction træet
14:02
and to ground them in experimental reality.
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og at rodfæste dem i en eksperimentel virkelighed.
14:04
XL: Nowadays, people in the lab
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XL: Nu om stunder, bruger mennesker i laboratoriet
14:06
and people in other groups all over the world
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og mennesker i andre grupper i hele verden
14:08
are using similar methods to activate or edit memories,
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forskellige metoder til at aktivere eller redigere minder,
14:12
whether that's old or new, positive or negative,
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hvad enten det er gamle eller nye, positive eller negative,
14:16
all sorts of memories so that we can understand
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alle slags minder så vi kan forstå
14:19
how memory works.
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hvordan minder fungerer.
14:20
SR: For example, one group in our lab
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SR: For eksempel, en gruppe i vores laboratorium
14:22
was able to find the brain cells that make up a fear memory
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var vi i stand til at finde de hjerneceller et frygtminde består af
14:25
and converted them into a pleasurable memory, just like that.
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og omdannede dem til et behageligt minde, ligesom det.
14:28
That's exactly what I mean about editing these kinds of processes.
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Det er præcis det jeg mener om
at redigere denne slags processer.
at redigere denne slags processer.
14:31
Now one dude in lab was even able to reactivate
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En fyr i laboratoriet var endda i stand til at reaktivere
14:33
memories of female mice in male mice,
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minder om hun mus hos han mus,
14:35
which rumor has it is a pleasurable experience.
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hvilket ifølge rygtet er en dejlig oplevelse.
14:38
XL: Indeed, we are living in a very exciting moment
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XL: Bestemt, vi lever i et meget spændende øjeblik
14:42
where science doesn't have any arbitrary speed limits
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hvor videnskab ikke har nogen
vilkårlige hastighedsbegrænsninger
vilkårlige hastighedsbegrænsninger
14:46
but is only bound by our own imagination.
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men kun er bundet til vores egen fantasi.
14:49
SR: And finally, what do we make of all this?
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SR: Og til slut, hvad får vi ud af alt dette?
14:51
How do we push this technology forward?
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Hvordan skubber vi denne teknologi fremad?
14:53
These are the questions that should not remain
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Dette er de spørgsmål der ikke bør forblive
14:55
just inside the lab,
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inde i laboratoriet,
14:57
and so one goal of today's talk was to bring everybody
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så et af målene med foredraget i dag var at få alle
14:59
up to speed with the kind of stuff that's possible
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up to date med den slags ting der er mulige
15:02
in modern neuroscience,
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i moderne neurovidenskab,
15:03
but now, just as importantly,
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men nu, lige så vigtigt,
15:05
to actively engage everybody in this conversation.
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aktivt at engagere alle i denne samtale.
15:08
So let's think together as a team about what this all means
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Lad os tænke sammen som et hold om hvad dette alt sammen betyder
15:10
and where we can and should go from here,
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og hvor vi kan og bør gå hen efter dette,
15:13
because Xu and I think we all have
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fordi Xu og jeg mener vi alle har
15:15
some really big decisions ahead of us.
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nogle virkelig store beslutninger foran os.
15:17
Thank you.
XL: Thank you.
XL: Thank you.
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Tak.
XL: Tak.
XL: Tak.
15:18
(Applause)
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(Bifald)
ABOUT THE SPEAKERS
Steve Ramirez - NeuroscientistWhen Steve Ramirez published his latest study in Science, it caused a media frenzy. Why? Because the paper was on implanting false memories in the brains of mice.
Why you should listen
Steve is a graduate student at MIT’s Brain and Cognitive Sciences department pursuing a Ph.D. in neuroscience. His work focuses on finding where single memories are located throughout the brain, genetically tricking the brain cells that house these memories to respond to brief pulses of light, and then using these same flickers of light to reactivate, erase and implant memories. The goals of his research are twofold: to figure out how the brain gives rise to the seemingly ephemeral process of memory, and to predict what happens when specific brain pieces breakdown to impair cognition. His work has been published in Science and covered by New Scientist, Discover, Scientific American, and Gizmodo.
Ramirez aims to be a professor who runs a lab that plucks questions from the tree of science fiction to ground them in experimental reality. He believes that a team-oriented approach to science makes research and teaching far more exciting. When he’s not tinkering with memories in the lab, Ramirez also enjoys running and cheering on every sports team in the city of Boston.
Steve Ramirez | Speaker | TED.com
Xu Liu - Neuroscientist
In his groundbreaking work, Xu Liu investigated how to activate and deactivate specific memories in mice.
Why you should listen
During his PhD, Xu Liu studied the mechanisms of learning and memory, using fruit flies as a model system. By changing the expression of certain genes in the fly brain, he generated smart flies that can learn many times faster than their peers. Using live imaging, he also detected learning-induced changes in the brain cells and observed memory formation inside the brain with light.
After graduation, he moved to MIT and joined Dr. Susumu Tonegawa's lab as a postdoctoral associate. He continued his pursuit of memory with light there. Instead of just watching memory formation, he developed a system in mice where one can not only identify and label cells in the brain for a particular memory, but also turn these cells on and off with light to activate this memory at will. This work was published in Science and has been covered by the media worldwide. Liu passed away in February 2015.
Xu Liu | Speaker | TED.com