TEDxBoston
Steve Ramirez and Xu Liu: A mouse. A laser beam. A manipulated memory.
Steve Ramirez i Xu Liu: Miš. Laserska zraka. Manipulirano sjećanje.
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Readability: 4.1
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Možemo li promijeniti sadržaj naših sjećanja? To se pitanje, koje zvuči kao znanstvena fantastika, pitaju Steve Ramirez i Xu Liu u njihovom laboratoriju na MIT-u. Ukratko, oni su ispalili lasersku zraku u mozak živog miša kako bi aktivirali i manipulirali njegovim sjećanjem. U ovom neočekivano zanimljivom govoru oni dijele ne samo kako, već i – još važnije – zašto to čine. (Snimljeno na TEDxBostonu)
Steve Ramirez - Neuroscientist
When Steve Ramirez published his latest study in Science, it caused a media frenzy. Why? Because the paper was on implanting false memories in the brains of mice. Full bioXu Liu - Neuroscientist
In his groundbreaking work, Xu Liu investigated how to activate and deactivate specific memories in mice. Full bio
When Steve Ramirez published his latest study in Science, it caused a media frenzy. Why? Because the paper was on implanting false memories in the brains of mice. Full bioXu Liu - Neuroscientist
In his groundbreaking work, Xu Liu investigated how to activate and deactivate specific memories in mice. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
Steve Ramirez: My first year of grad school,
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Steve Ramirez: Na mojoj prvoj godini postdiplomskog
00:13
I found myself in my bedroom
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našao sam se u sobi
00:15
eating lots of Ben & Jerry's
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kako jedem puno Ben & Jerry's,
00:18
watching some trashy TV
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gledam neko smeće na TV-u
00:19
and maybe, maybe listening to Taylor Swift.
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i možda, ali možda slušajući Taylor Swift.
00:23
I had just gone through a breakup.
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Upravo sam doživio prekid.
00:24
(Laughter)
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(Smijeh)
00:26
So for the longest time, all I would do
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Dugo sam samo
00:28
is recall the memory of this person over and over again,
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prizivao uspomenu na tu osobu opet iznova,
00:32
wishing that I could get rid of that gut-wrenching,
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želeći da se mogu riješiti tog osjećaja u stomaku,
00:34
visceral "blah" feeling.
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visceralnog „blah“ osjećaja.
00:37
Now, as it turns out, I'm a neuroscientist,
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Igrom slučaja sam neuroznanstvenik
00:39
so I knew that the memory of that person
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pa znam da su uspomena na tu osobu
00:42
and the awful, emotional undertones that color in that memory,
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i grozna, emotivna ispraznost koja boja to sjećanje
00:45
are largely mediated by separate brain systems.
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procesuirani različitim sustavima u mozgu.
00:47
And so I thought, what if we could go into the brain
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I pomislio sam što ako možemo ući u mozak
00:50
and edit out that nauseating feeling
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i obraditi taj grozni osjećaj,
00:52
but while keeping the memory of that person intact?
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ali održati uspomenu na tu osobu netaknutom?
00:55
Then I realized, maybe that's a little bit lofty for now.
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Tada sam shvatio da je to malo previsok cilj za sada.
00:57
So what if we could start off by going into the brain
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Što ako bismo mogli započeti s ulaženjem u mozak
01:00
and just finding a single memory to begin with?
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i pronalaskom jedne uspomene s kojom bismo započeli?
01:03
Could we jump-start that memory back to life,
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Bismo li mogli naglo vratiti tu uspomenu u život,
01:05
maybe even play with the contents of that memory?
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možda se poigrati sa sadržajem te uspomene?
01:09
All that said, there is one person in the entire world right now
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Sve rečeno, postoji jedna osoba na cijelom svijetu sada
01:11
that I really hope is not watching this talk.
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za koju se nadam da ne gleda ovaj govor.
01:13
(Laughter)
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(Smijeh)
01:17
So there is a catch. There is a catch.
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Postoji kvaka. Postoji kvaka.
01:20
These ideas probably remind you of "Total Recall,"
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Ove vas ideje vjerojatno podsjećaju na „Total Recall“,
01:23
"Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind,"
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"Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind,"
01:25
or of "Inception."
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ili „Inception“,
01:27
But the movie stars that we work with
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Ali filmske zvijezde s kojima radimo
01:28
are the celebrities of the lab.
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su zvijezde laboratorija.
01:30
Xu Liu: Test mice.
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Xu Liu: ispitni miš
01:32
(Laughter)
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(Smijeh)
01:33
As neuroscientists, we work in the lab with mice
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Kao neuroznanstvenici radimo u laboratoriju s miševima
01:36
trying to understand how memory works.
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pokušavajući razumijeti kako pamćenje radi.
01:40
And today, we hope to convince you that now
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I danas se nadamo da ćemo vas uvjeriti
01:42
we are actually able to activate a memory in the brain
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da zapravo možemo aktivirati sjećanje u mozgu
01:45
at the speed of light.
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brzinom svjetlosti.
01:48
To do this, there's only two simple steps to follow.
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Kako bismo to napravili potrebna su dva koraka.
01:51
First, you find and label a memory in the brain,
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Prvo, pronađeš i označiš uspomenu u mozgu
01:54
and then you activate it with a switch.
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i onda je aktiviraš prekidačem.
01:58
As simple as that.
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Poprilično jednostavno.
01:59
(Laughter)
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(Smijeh)
02:01
SR: Are you convinced?
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SR: Jeste li uvjereni?
02:03
So, turns out finding a memory in the brain isn't all that easy.
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Izgleda da pronalaženje uspomene u mozgu nije tako jednostavno.
02:07
XL: Indeed. This is way more difficult than, let's say,
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XL: Uistinu. To je puno teže nego, recimo,
02:09
finding a needle in a haystack,
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pronalaženje igle u plastu sijena,
02:12
because at least, you know, the needle is still something
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jer bar znate da je igla nešto
02:14
you can physically put your fingers on.
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što fizički možete dodirnuti.
02:17
But memory is not.
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Ali uspomena nije.
02:19
And also, there's way more cells in your brain
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Također više je stanica u vašem mozgu
02:22
than the number of straws in a typical haystack.
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nego slamki u jednom plastu sijena.
02:27
So yeah, this task does seem to be daunting.
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Da, ovaj pothvat se čini obeshrabrujućim.
02:30
But luckily, we got help from the brain itself.
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Ali, srećom, dobili smo pomoć od samog mozga.
02:34
It turned out that all we need to do is basically
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Izgleda da je sve što trebamo učiniti
02:36
to let the brain form a memory,
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pustiti mozak da stvori sjećanje
02:38
and then the brain will tell us which cells are involved
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i onda će nam mozak reći koje stanice sudjeluju
02:42
in that particular memory.
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u određenoj uspomeni.
02:44
SR: So what was going on in my brain
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SR: Što se događalo u mom mozgu
02:46
while I was recalling the memory of an ex?
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dok sam prizivao sjećanje na bivšu?
02:48
If you were to just completely ignore human ethics for a second
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Ako samo na sekundu potpuno ignorirate ljudsku etiku
02:51
and slice up my brain right now,
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i upravo mi razrežete mozak,
02:52
you would see that there was an amazing number
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vidjeli biste da postoji velik broj
02:54
of brain regions that were active while recalling that memory.
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regija mozga koje su bile aktivne dok sam prizivao uspomenu.
02:57
Now one brain region that would be robustly active
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Jedna regija u mozgu, koja bi bila posebno snažno aktivna,
03:00
in particular is called the hippocampus,
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zove se hipokampus,
03:02
which for decades has been implicated in processing
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koji je desetljećima uključen u procesuiranje
03:05
the kinds of memories that we hold near and dear,
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vrste uspomena koje smatramo bliskima i dragima
03:07
which also makes it an ideal target to go into
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i koje to čini savršenim metama za
03:10
and to try and find and maybe reactivate a memory.
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pronalazak i možda ponovno aktiviranje uspomene.
03:13
XL: When you zoom in into the hippocampus,
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XL: Kada zumiramo hipokampus,
03:15
of course you will see lots of cells,
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naravno da ćemo vidjeti mnogo stanica,
03:17
but we are able to find which cells are involved
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ali u stanju smo pronaći koje stanice sudjeluju
03:20
in a particular memory,
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u određenoj uspomeni,
03:22
because whenever a cell is active,
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jer kad god je stanica aktivna
03:24
like when it's forming a memory,
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kao kada stvara uspomenu,
03:26
it will also leave a footprint that will later allow us to know
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također ostavlja otisak koji će nam kasnije omogućiti
03:30
these cells are recently active.
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da znamo kako su te stanice nedavno bile aktivirane.
03:32
SR: So the same way that building lights at night
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SR: Na isti način na koji vam svjetlo u zgradi po noći
03:34
let you know that somebody's probably working there at any given moment,
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govori da netko upravo tada radi tamo,
03:37
in a very real sense, there are biological sensors
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isto tako postoje i biološki senzori
03:41
within a cell that are turned on
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unutar stanice koji su uključeni
03:43
only when that cell was just working.
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samo kada ta stanica radi.
03:45
They're sort of biological windows that light up
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Oni su na neki način biološki prozori kojima je svjetlo upaljeno
03:47
to let us know that that cell was just active.
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kako bismo znali da je ta stanica upravo bila aktivna.
03:49
XL: So we clipped part of this sensor,
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XL: Odrezali smo dio senzora
03:51
and attached that to a switch to control the cells,
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i dodali ga prekidaču pomoću kojeg kontroliramo stanice
03:55
and we packed this switch into an engineered virus
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i vratili smo prekidače u inženjeringom dobiven virus
03:59
and injected that into the brain of the mice.
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te to ubrizgali u mozak miša.
04:01
So whenever a memory is being formed,
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Svaki put kada se stvara uspomena,
04:04
any active cells for that memory
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svaka će aktivna stanica za tu uspomenu
04:06
will also have this switch installed.
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imati ugrađen prekidač.
04:09
SR: So here is what the hippocampus looks like
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SR: Ovako izgleda hipokampus
04:10
after forming a fear memory, for example.
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nakon što se stvori uspomena na strah, na primjer.
04:13
The sea of blue that you see here
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More plavog koje vidite ovdje
04:15
are densely packed brain cells,
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su gusto zbijene stanice mozga,
04:17
but the green brain cells,
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ali zelene stanice,
04:19
the green brain cells are the ones that are holding on
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zelene stanice su one koje se tiču
04:21
to a specific fear memory.
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određene uspomene na strah.
04:23
So you are looking at the crystallization
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Gledate u kristalizaciju
04:25
of the fleeting formation of fear.
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brzog stvaranja straha.
04:27
You're actually looking at the cross-section of a memory right now.
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Upravo gledate presjek uspomene.
04:31
XL: Now, for the switch we have been talking about,
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XL: Sad, prekidač o kojem smo bili govorili,
04:33
ideally, the switch has to act really fast.
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idealno prekidač bi trebao djelovati jako brzo.
04:36
It shouldn't take minutes or hours to work.
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Ne trebaju proći minute i sati kako bi proradio.
04:39
It should act at the speed of the brain, in milliseconds.
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Trebao bi djelovati brzinom mozga, u milisekundama.
04:43
SR: So what do you think, Xu?
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SR: Što ti misliš, Xu?
04:44
Could we use, let's say, pharmacological drugs
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Možemo li koristiti, recimo, farmakološke lijekove
04:47
to activate or inactivate brain cells?
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kako bismo aktivirali ili deaktivirali moždane stanice?
04:49
XL: Nah. Drugs are pretty messy. They spread everywhere.
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XL: Ne. Lijekovi su nepredvidljivi. Šire se svuda.
04:53
And also it takes them forever to act on cells.
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Također, treba im vječnost da djeluju na stanice.
04:56
So it will not allow us to control a memory in real time.
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Neće nam omogućiti kontrolu uspomene u stvarnom vremenu.
05:00
So Steve, how about let's zap the brain with electricity?
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Steve, što misliš o tome da zdrmamo mozak strujom?
05:04
SR: So electricity is pretty fast,
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SR: Pa struja putuje brzo,
05:06
but we probably wouldn't be able to target it
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ali vjerojatno nećemo moći naciljati
05:08
to just the specific cells that hold onto a memory,
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određenu stanicu koja sadrži uspomenu
05:10
and we'd probably fry the brain.
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i vjerojatno ćemo spržiti mozak.
05:12
XL: Oh. That's true. So it looks like, hmm,
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XL: Oh. Istina. Izgleda da
05:15
indeed we need to find a better way
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stvarno trebamo pronaći bolji način
05:18
to impact the brain at the speed of light.
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da utječemo na mozak brzinom svjetlosti.
05:21
SR: So it just so happens that light travels at the speed of light.
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SR: Igrom slučaja svjetlost putuje brzinom svjetlosti.
05:26
So maybe we could activate or inactive memories
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Možda možemo aktivirati ili deaktivirati uspomene
05:30
by just using light --
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koristeći samo svjetlost--
05:31
XL: That's pretty fast.
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XL: To je poprilično brzo.
05:33
SR: -- and because normally brain cells
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SR: --i zato što normalne moždane stanice
05:35
don't respond to pulses of light,
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ne reagiraju na valove svjetla,
05:36
so those that would respond to pulses of light
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pa bi one koje bi reagirale na valove svjetla
05:38
are those that contain a light-sensitive switch.
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bile one koje sadrže prekidače osjetljive na svjetlost.
05:41
Now to do that, first we need to trick brain cells
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Kako bismo to učinili trebamo prevariti moždane stanice
05:43
to respond to laser beams.
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da odgovaraju na laserske zrake.
05:44
XL: Yep. You heard it right.
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XL: Da. Dobro ste čuli.
05:45
We are trying to shoot lasers into the brain.
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Pokušavamo pucati laserom u mozak.
05:47
(Laughter)
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(Smijeh)
05:49
SR: And the technique that lets us do that is optogenetics.
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SR: A tehnika koja nam to dopušta je optogenetika.
05:52
Optogenetics gave us this light switch that we can use
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Optogenetika nam je dala svjetlosne prekidače koje možemo koristiti
05:56
to turn brain cells on or off,
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kako bismo uključili ili isključili moždane stanice,
05:57
and the name of that switch is channelrhodopsin,
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a ime tog prekidača je kanalrodopsin
06:00
seen here as these green dots attached to this brain cell.
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koji se ovdje vidi kao zelene točke pričvršćene za ovu moždanu stanicu.
06:02
You can think of channelrhodopsin as a sort of light-sensitive switch
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Možete zamisliti kanalrodopsin kao prekidač osjetljiv na svjetlost
06:05
that can be artificially installed in brain cells
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koji se može umjetno ugraditi u moždanu stanicu
06:08
so that now we can use that switch
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tako da možemo koristiti taj prekidač
06:10
to activate or inactivate the brain cell simply by clicking it,
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kako bi aktivirali ili deaktivirali moždanu stanicu pritiskom na njega,
06:13
and in this case we click it on with pulses of light.
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a u ovom slučaju ga pritišćemo valom svjetlosti.
06:15
XL: So we attach this light-sensitive switch of channelrhodopsin
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XL: Ugradili smo ovaj kanalrodopsinov prekidač osjetljiv na svjetlost
06:19
to the sensor we've been talking about
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na senzor o kojem smo bili pričali
06:21
and inject this into the brain.
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i ubrizgali smo to u mozak.
06:24
So whenever a memory is being formed,
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Pa svaki put kada se stvori uspomena
06:27
any active cell for that particular memory
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svaka će stanica aktivna za tu određenu uspomenu
06:29
will also have this light-sensitive switch installed in it
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također imati ugrađen ovaj prekidač osjetljiv na svjetlost
06:33
so that we can control these cells
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kako bismo kontrolirali ove stanice
06:35
by the flipping of a laser just like this one you see.
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koristeći laser poput ovoga koji vidite.
06:39
SR: So let's put all of this to the test now.
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SR: Hajdemo sada sve ovo testirati.
06:42
What we can do is we can take our mice
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Ono što možemo učiniti je uzeti miševe
06:44
and then we can put them in a box that looks exactly like this box here,
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i možemo ih postaviti u kutiju, koja izgleda točno kao ova ovdje,
06:47
and then we can give them a very mild foot shock
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i možemo im blago stresti stopala
06:50
so that they form a fear memory of this box.
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kako bi stvorili uspomenu straha od ove kutije.
06:52
They learn that something bad happened here.
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Nauče da se nešto loše dogodilo ovdje.
06:54
Now with our system, the cells that are active
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Sad s našim sustavom, stanice koje su aktivne
06:56
in the hippocampus in the making of this memory,
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u hipokampusu, zbog stvaranja uspomene,
06:59
only those cells will now contain channelrhodopsin.
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samo će one sadržavati kanalrodopsin.
07:02
XL: When you are as small as a mouse,
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XL: Kada si mal poput miša,
07:05
it feels as if the whole world is trying to get you.
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osjećaš se kao da te cijeli svijet želi uhvatiti.
07:08
So your best response of defense
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Pa je tvoja najbolja obrana
07:10
is trying to be undetected.
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pokušati biti neprimijećen.
07:13
Whenever a mouse is in fear,
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Kad god se miš boji,
07:15
it will show this very typical behavior
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pokazat će veoma tipično ponašanje
07:16
by staying at one corner of the box,
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ostajući u jednom kutu kutije,
07:18
trying to not move any part of its body,
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pokušavajući ne micati nijedan dio tijela,
07:21
and this posture is called freezing.
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a ovo držanje se zove zamrzavanje.
07:24
So if a mouse remembers that something bad happened in this box,
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Ako se miš sjeća da se nešto loše dogodilo u kutiji,
07:29
and when we put them back into the same box,
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kada ih vratimo natrag u kutiju,
07:31
it will basically show freezing
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odmah će pokazati zamrzavanje,
07:33
because it doesn't want to be detected
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jer ne želi biti otkriven
07:35
by any potential threats in this box.
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od strane bilo kakve opasnosti u kutiji.
07:38
SR: So you can think of freezing as,
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SR: Možete zamisliti zamrzavanje kao,
07:40
you're walking down the street minding your own business,
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hodate niz ulicu gledajući svoja posla
07:42
and then out of nowhere you almost run into
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i odjednom skoro naletite na
07:43
an ex-girlfriend or ex-boyfriend,
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bivšu curu ili dečka
07:46
and now those terrifying two seconds
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i sada te strašne dvije sekunde
07:48
where you start thinking, "What do I do? Do I say hi?
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kada razmišljate, „Što napraviti? Trebam li pozdraviti?
07:50
Do I shake their hand? Do I turn around and run away?
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Trebamo li se rukovati? Da se okrenem i pobjegnem?
07:51
Do I sit here and pretend like I don't exist?"
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A da sjednem ovdje i pretvaram se da ne postojim?“
07:53
Those kinds of fleeting thoughts that physically incapacitate you,
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Takve misli o bježanju te fizički oduzmu,
07:56
that temporarily give you that deer-in-headlights look.
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daju ti izgled srne pred jurećim autom.
07:59
XL: However, if you put the mouse in a completely different
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XL: Ako stavite miša u posve različitu,
08:02
new box, like the next one,
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novu kutiju, poput sljedeće,
08:05
it will not be afraid of this box
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neće se plašiti te kutije,
08:08
because there's no reason that it will be afraid of this new environment.
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jer nema razloga zbog kojih bi se bojao nove okoline.
08:12
But what if we put the mouse in this new box
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Ali što ako stavimo miša u novu kutiju
08:15
but at the same time, we activate the fear memory
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i u isto vrijeme aktiviramo uspomenu straha
08:19
using lasers just like we did before?
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koristeći laser kao što smo učinili prije?
08:22
Are we going to bring back the fear memory
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Hoćemo li vratiti uspomenu straha
08:25
for the first box into this completely new environment?
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na prvu kutiju u ovaj posve novi okoliš?
08:29
SR: All right, and here's the million-dollar experiment.
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SR: Dobro, to je eksperiment vrijedan milijun dolara.
08:31
Now to bring back to life the memory of that day,
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Sad kako bismo vratili u život uspomenu na taj dan,
08:34
I remember that the Red Sox had just won,
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sjećam se da su Red Soxi upravo pobijedili,
08:36
it was a green spring day,
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bio je zeleni proljetni dan,
08:38
perfect for going up and down the river
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savršen za šetnju uz rijeku
08:40
and then maybe going to the North End
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i onda možda odlazak do North Enda
08:43
to get some cannolis, #justsaying.
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na nekakav desert, samo kažem.
08:45
Now Xu and I, on the other hand,
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Xu i ja smo, u drugu ruku,
08:48
were in a completely windowless black room
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bili u posve tamnoj sobi bez prozora
08:51
not making any ocular movement that even remotely resembles an eye blink
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ne radeći ni pokrete očiju koji imalo podsjećaju na treptaj oka,
08:54
because our eyes were fixed onto a computer screen.
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jer su naše oči bile uperene na zaslon računala.
08:57
We were looking at this mouse here trying to activate a memory
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Gledali smo u miša pokušavajući aktivirati uspomenu
08:59
for the first time using our technique.
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po prvi put koristeći ovu tehniku.
09:01
XL: And this is what we saw.
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XL: I vidjeli smo ovo.
09:04
When we first put the mouse into this box,
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Kada smo stavili miša u kutiju,
09:06
it's exploring, sniffing around, walking around,
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istraživao je, njuškao, hodao uokolo,
09:09
minding its own business,
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gledao svoja posla,
09:11
because actually by nature,
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jer su po prirodi,
09:13
mice are pretty curious animals.
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miševi znatiželjne životinje.
09:15
They want to know, what's going on in this new box?
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Žele znati što se dešava u ovoj novoj kutiji?
09:17
It's interesting.
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Zanimljivo je.
09:19
But the moment we turned on the laser, like you see now,
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Ali u trenutku kada smo uključili laser, kao što sada vidite,
09:22
all of a sudden the mouse entered this freezing mode.
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miš se odjednom zamrznuo.
09:25
It stayed here and tried not to move any part of its body.
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Ostao je tamo i pokušao je ne micati nijedan dio svoga tijela.
09:30
Clearly it's freezing.
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To je očigledno zamrzavanje.
09:31
So indeed, it looks like we are able to bring back
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Uistinu, izgleda da smo uspjeli vratiti
09:34
the fear memory for the first box
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uspomenu straha od prve kutije
09:36
in this completely new environment.
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u ovo posve novo okruženje.
09:39
While watching this, Steve and I
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Dok smo to gledali, Steve i ja
09:41
are as shocked as the mouse itself.
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smo bili šokirani koliko i sam miš.
09:44
(Laughter)
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(Smijeh)
09:45
So after the experiment, the two of us just left the room
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Nakon eksperimenta nas smo dvojica samo napustili sobu
09:48
without saying anything.
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bez da smo išta reklil.
09:50
After a kind of long, awkward period of time,
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Nakon dugog, neugodnog vremenskog perioda
09:53
Steve broke the silence.
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Steve je prekinuo tišinu.
09:55
SR: "Did that just work?"
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SR: „Je li to upravo uspjelo?“
09:58
XL: "Yes," I said. "Indeed it worked!"
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XL: „Da“ rekao sam. „Uistinu je uspjelo!“
10:01
We're really excited about this.
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Vrlo smo uzbuđeni oko ovoga.
10:03
And then we published our findings
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I onda smo objavili naše pronalaske
10:05
in the journal Nature.
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u časopisu Nature.
10:07
Ever since the publication of our work,
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Otkad smo objavili naš rad,
10:10
we've been receiving numerous comments
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primili smo mnogo komentara
10:12
from all over the Internet.
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s čitavog Interneta.
10:14
Maybe we can take a look at some of those.
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Mogli bismo pogledati neke od njih.
10:18
["OMGGGGG FINALLY... so much more to come, virtual reality, neural manipulation, visual dream emulation... neural coding, 'writing and re-writing of memories', mental illnesses. Ahhh the future is awesome"]
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[„OMGGGGG KONAČNO… toliko toga još treba doći, virtualna stvarnost, neuralna manipulacija, emulacija snova, neuralno kodiranje „pisanje i mijenjanjanje uspomena“, mentalne bolesti. Ahhh budućnost je zakon“]
10:20
SR: So the first thing that you'll notice is that people
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SR: Prva stvar koju ćete zamijetiti je da ljudi
10:22
have really strong opinions about this kind of work.
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imaju čvrsto mišljenje o ovoj vrsti rada.
10:25
Now I happen to completely agree with the optimism
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Potpuno se slažem s optimizmom
10:28
of this first quote,
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ovog citata,
10:29
because on a scale of zero to Morgan Freeman's voice,
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jer na ljestvici od nule pa do glasa Morgana Freemana,
10:31
it happens to be one of the most evocative accolades
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to je jedno od najprimamljivijih priznanja
10:34
that I've heard come our way.
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koje je došlo do nas.
10:35
(Laughter)
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(Smijeh)
10:37
But as you'll see, it's not the only opinion that's out there.
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No kao što vidite, to nije jedino mišljenje koje je tamo.
10:39
["This scares the hell out of me... What if they could do that easily in humans in a couple of years?! OH MY GOD WE'RE DOOMED"]
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[„Ovo me nasmrt prestrašilo… Što ako bi to lako mogli činiti ljudima za nekoliko godina? O moj Bože, propali smo.“]
10:41
XL: Indeed, if we take a look at the second one,
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XL: Uistinu, ako promotrimo drugi,
10:43
I think we can all agree that it's, meh,
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mislim da se možemo složiti da
10:45
probably not as positive.
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nije baš pozitivan.
10:47
But this also reminds us that,
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Ali ovo nas također podsjeća da je,
10:49
although we are still working with mice,
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iako još uvijek radimo s miševima,
10:52
it's probably a good idea to start thinking and discussing
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vjerojatno dobra ideja početi razmišljati i raspravljati
10:55
about the possible ethical ramifications
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o mogućim etičkim posljedicama
10:58
of memory control.
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kontrole sjećanja.
11:00
SR: Now, in the spirit of the third quote,
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SR: Sad, u duhu trećeg citata,
11:02
we want to tell you about a recent project that we've been
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želimo vam govoriti o novom projektu na kojem
11:04
working on in lab that we've called Project Inception.
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radimo u laboratoriju, a zove se Project Inception.
11:07
["They should make a movie about this. Where they plant ideas into peoples minds, so they can control them for their own personal gain. We'll call it: Inception."]
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[„Trebali bi napraviti film o ovome. Gdje ugrade ideje u ljudski um kako bi ih mogli kontrolirati u svoju korist. Nazovimo ga: Inception“]
11:10
So we reasoned that now that we can reactivate a memory,
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Raspravljali smo o tome kako možemo ponovno aktivirati uspomenu,
11:14
what if we do so but then begin to tinker with that memory?
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što ako to učinimo, ali onda počnemo petljati s tom uspomenom?
11:17
Could we possibly even turn it into a false memory?
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Možemo li ju čak pretvoriti u lažnu uspomenu?
11:20
XL: So all memory is sophisticated and dynamic,
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XL: Sve uspomene su sofisticirane i dinamične,
11:24
but if just for simplicity, let's imagine memory
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ali, zbog lakšeg razumijevanja, zamislimo uspomenu
11:27
as a movie clip.
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kao filmski isječak.
11:28
So far what we've told you is basically we can control
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Dosad smo vam rekli da mi zapravo možemo kontrolirati
11:31
this "play" button of the clip
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ovu „play“ tipku isječka
11:33
so that we can play this video clip any time, anywhere.
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tako da možemo pustiti ovaj video isječak bilo kad i bilo gdje.
11:37
But is there a possibility that we can actually get
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Ali postoji li mogućnost da možemo zapravo ući
11:40
inside the brain and edit this movie clip
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unutar mozga i urediti video ulomak
11:43
so that we can make it different from the original?
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tako da ga učinimo drugačijim od originala?
11:46
Yes we can.
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Možemo.
11:48
Turned out that all we need to do is basically
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Ispalo je da je zapravo sve što trebamo
11:50
reactivate a memory using lasers just like we did before,
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ponovno aktivirati uspomenu pomoću lasera kao što smo već učinili,
11:54
but at the same time, if we present new information
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ali u isto vrijeme, ako prikažemo novu informaciju
11:58
and allow this new information to incorporate into this old memory,
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i dopustimo novoj informaciji da se ugradi u staru uspomenu,
12:02
this will change the memory.
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ovo će promijeniti uspomenu.
12:04
It's sort of like making a remix tape.
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To je nešto poput pravljenja remix pjesme.
12:08
SR: So how do we do this?
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SR: Kako smo to učinili?
12:11
Rather than finding a fear memory in the brain,
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Umjesto pronalaženja uspomene na strah u mozgu,
12:13
we can start by taking our animals,
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možemo započeti uzimanjem naših životinja
12:14
and let's say we put them in a blue box like this blue box here
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i recimo da ih stavimo u plavu kutiju poput ove kutije ovdje
12:17
and we find the brain cells that represent that blue box
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i pronađemo moždane stanice koje prikazuju tu plavu kutiju
12:20
and we trick them to respond to pulses of light
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i prevarimo ih tako da reagiraju na puls svijetla,
12:22
exactly like we had said before.
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točno kako smo već rekli prije.
12:24
Now the next day, we can take our animals and place them
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Sljedeći dan možemo uzeti naše životinje i staviti ih
12:26
in a red box that they've never experienced before.
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u crvenu kutiju koju nikada dosad nisu doživjeli.
12:29
We can shoot light into the brain to reactivate
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Možemo ispaliti svjetlost u njihov mozak i ponovno aktivirati
12:31
the memory of the blue box.
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uspomenu na plavu kutiju.
12:33
So what would happen here if, while the animal
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Što bi se dogodilo ovdje kad bi im, dok se životinja
12:35
is recalling the memory of the blue box,
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prisjeća uspomene na plavu kutiju,
12:36
we gave it a couple of mild foot shocks?
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dali nekoliko blagih šokova u stopala?
12:39
So here we're trying to artificially make an association
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Ovdje pokušavamo umjetno napraviti poveznicu
12:42
between the memory of the blue box
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između uspomene na plavu kutiju
12:44
and the foot shocks themselves.
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i šoka stopala.
12:45
We're just trying to connect the two.
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Samo pokušavamo spojiti to dvoje.
12:47
So to test if we had done so,
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Kako bi testirali jesmo li uspjeli,
12:49
we can take our animals once again
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možemo uzeti naše životinje još jednom
12:50
and place them back in the blue box.
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i staviti ih natrag u plavu kutiju.
12:52
Again, we had just reactivated the memory of the blue box
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Opet, upravo smo reaktivirali uspomenu na plavu kutiju
12:55
while the animal got a couple of mild foot shocks,
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dok životinja dobiva nekoliko blagih šokova stopala
12:57
and now the animal suddenly freezes.
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i sad se životinja zamrzla.
12:59
It's as though it's recalling being mildly shocked in this environment
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Kao da se sjeća da je blago šokirana u ovom okružju
13:02
even though that never actually happened.
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iako se to nikada zapravo nije dogodilo.
13:05
So it formed a false memory,
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Stvorilo je lažnu uspomenu,
13:07
because it's falsely fearing an environment
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jer je strah od okružja lažan gdje se,
13:09
where, technically speaking,
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tehnički govoreći,
13:10
nothing bad actually happened to it.
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ništa loše nije dogodilo.
13:13
XL: So, so far we are only talking about
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XL: Dosad smo govorili jedino o
13:15
this light-controlled "on" switch.
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„uključeno“ prekidaču kontroliranom svjetlošću.
13:18
In fact, we also have a light-controlled "off" switch,
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Zapravo imamo i „isključeno“ prekidač kontroliran svjetlošću
13:21
and it's very easy to imagine that
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i veoma je lagano zamisliti da,
13:23
by installing this light-controlled "off" switch,
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instalirajući ovaj „off“ prekidač kontroliran svjetlošću,
13:25
we can also turn off a memory, any time, anywhere.
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možemo također isključiti uspomenu, bilo kad, bilo gdje.
13:31
So everything we've been talking about today
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Sve o čemu smo govorili danas
13:33
is based on this philosophically charged principle of neuroscience
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je bazirano na filozofski nastrojenom principu neuroznanosti
13:38
that the mind, with its seemingly mysterious properties,
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da je um, sa svojim naizgled misterioznim svojstvima,
13:42
is actually made of physical stuff that we can tinker with.
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zapravo napravljen od fizičke tvari kojom možemo petljati.
13:46
SR: And for me personally,
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SR: I za mene osobno,
13:47
I see a world where we can reactivate
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vidim svijet gdje možemo ponovno aktivirati
13:49
any kind of memory that we'd like.
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bilo koju uspomenu koju želimo.
13:51
I also see a world where we can erase unwanted memories.
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Također vidim svijet gdje možemo obrisati neželjene uspomene.
13:54
Now, I even see a world where editing memories
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Čak vidim i svijet gdje je uređivanje uspomena
13:56
is something of a reality,
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nešto realno,
13:58
because we're living in a time where it's possible
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jer živimo u vremenu kada je moguće
13:59
to pluck questions from the tree of science fiction
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ubrati pitanja s drveta znanstvene fantastike
14:02
and to ground them in experimental reality.
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i prizemljiti ih eksperimentalnom stvarnošću.
14:04
XL: Nowadays, people in the lab
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XL: Danas ljudi u laboratorijima
14:06
and people in other groups all over the world
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i ljudi u drugim grupama svuda po svijetu
14:08
are using similar methods to activate or edit memories,
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koriste slične metode kako bi aktivirali ili obradili uspomene
14:12
whether that's old or new, positive or negative,
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bilo da su stare ili nove, pozitivne ili negativne,
14:16
all sorts of memories so that we can understand
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različite vrste uspomena kako bi razumjeli
14:19
how memory works.
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kako uspomene rade.
14:20
SR: For example, one group in our lab
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SR: Na primjer, jedna grupa u našem laboratoriju
14:22
was able to find the brain cells that make up a fear memory
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je uspjela pronaći moždane stanice koje čine uspomene na strah
14:25
and converted them into a pleasurable memory, just like that.
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i prevela ih je u ugodne uspomene, samo tako.
14:28
That's exactly what I mean about editing these kinds of processes.
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Upravo to mislim o obrađivanju takvih procesa.
14:31
Now one dude in lab was even able to reactivate
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Jedan lik je u laboratoriju čak uspio ponovno aktivirati
14:33
memories of female mice in male mice,
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uspomene ženskog miša u muškom mišu,
14:35
which rumor has it is a pleasurable experience.
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a glasine govore da je to ugodno iskustvo.
14:38
XL: Indeed, we are living in a very exciting moment
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XL: Uistinu, živimo u vrlo uzbudljivom trenutku
14:42
where science doesn't have any arbitrary speed limits
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gdje znanost nema određenu brzinu,
14:46
but is only bound by our own imagination.
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već je jedino ograničena našom maštom.
14:49
SR: And finally, what do we make of all this?
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SR: I konačno, što možemo zaključiti iz svega ovoga?
14:51
How do we push this technology forward?
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Kako progurati ovu tehnologiju naprijed?
14:53
These are the questions that should not remain
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Ova pitanje ne trebaju ostati
14:55
just inside the lab,
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samo unutar laboratorija,
14:57
and so one goal of today's talk was to bring everybody
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a jedan od ciljeva današnjeg govora je da svima
14:59
up to speed with the kind of stuff that's possible
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pokažemo što je sve moguće
15:02
in modern neuroscience,
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u modernoj neuroznanosti,
15:03
but now, just as importantly,
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ali sad, jednako važno,
15:05
to actively engage everybody in this conversation.
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da aktivno uključimo sve u ovaj razgovor.
15:08
So let's think together as a team about what this all means
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Hajdemo zajedno kao tim razmisliti o tome što sve ovo znači
15:10
and where we can and should go from here,
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i gdje možemo i trebamo ići dalje,
15:13
because Xu and I think we all have
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jer Xu i ja mislimo da su ispred nas
15:15
some really big decisions ahead of us.
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neke velike odluke.
15:17
Thank you.
XL: Thank you.
XL: Thank you.
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Hvala vam.
XL: Hvala vam.
XL: Hvala vam.
15:18
(Applause)
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(Pljesak)
ABOUT THE SPEAKERS
Steve Ramirez - NeuroscientistWhen Steve Ramirez published his latest study in Science, it caused a media frenzy. Why? Because the paper was on implanting false memories in the brains of mice.
Why you should listen
Steve is a graduate student at MIT’s Brain and Cognitive Sciences department pursuing a Ph.D. in neuroscience. His work focuses on finding where single memories are located throughout the brain, genetically tricking the brain cells that house these memories to respond to brief pulses of light, and then using these same flickers of light to reactivate, erase and implant memories. The goals of his research are twofold: to figure out how the brain gives rise to the seemingly ephemeral process of memory, and to predict what happens when specific brain pieces breakdown to impair cognition. His work has been published in Science and covered by New Scientist, Discover, Scientific American, and Gizmodo.
Ramirez aims to be a professor who runs a lab that plucks questions from the tree of science fiction to ground them in experimental reality. He believes that a team-oriented approach to science makes research and teaching far more exciting. When he’s not tinkering with memories in the lab, Ramirez also enjoys running and cheering on every sports team in the city of Boston.
Steve Ramirez | Speaker | TED.com
Xu Liu - Neuroscientist
In his groundbreaking work, Xu Liu investigated how to activate and deactivate specific memories in mice.
Why you should listen
During his PhD, Xu Liu studied the mechanisms of learning and memory, using fruit flies as a model system. By changing the expression of certain genes in the fly brain, he generated smart flies that can learn many times faster than their peers. Using live imaging, he also detected learning-induced changes in the brain cells and observed memory formation inside the brain with light.
After graduation, he moved to MIT and joined Dr. Susumu Tonegawa's lab as a postdoctoral associate. He continued his pursuit of memory with light there. Instead of just watching memory formation, he developed a system in mice where one can not only identify and label cells in the brain for a particular memory, but also turn these cells on and off with light to activate this memory at will. This work was published in Science and has been covered by the media worldwide. Liu passed away in February 2015.
Xu Liu | Speaker | TED.com