TEDGlobal 2012
Jason McCue: Terrorism is a failed brand
Jason McCue: El terrorismo es una marca condenada
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En esta absorbente charla, el abogado Jason McCue nos anima a buscar una nueva manera de enfrentarnos al terrorismo. Atacando su credibilidad a través de aquellos que compran su producto, los reclutas. Compartirá con nosotros historias reales de casos en los que él y otros activistas han utilizado como forma de acercamiento para conseguir resultados.
Jason McCue - Lawyer
Jason McCue litigates against terrorists, dictators and others who seem above the law, using the legal and judicial system in innovative ways. Full bio
Jason McCue litigates against terrorists, dictators and others who seem above the law, using the legal and judicial system in innovative ways. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:16
We most certainly do talk to terrorists, no question about it.
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Sin duda, hablamos a menudo de terrorismo.
00:21
We are at war with a new form of terrorism.
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Estamos en guerra con un nuevo terrorismo.
00:27
It's sort of the good old, traditional form of terrorism,
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Es como el terrorismo tradicional,
00:30
but it's sort of been packaged for the 21st century.
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pero a la moda del siglo XXI.
00:34
One of the big things about countering terrorism
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Para enfrentarnos al terrorismo, primero,
00:38
is, how do you perceive it?
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¿cómo lo percibimos?
00:41
Because perception leads to your response to it.
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Porque nuestra percepción determinará nuestra respuesta.
00:45
So if you have a traditional perception of terrorism,
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Si lo percibimos de forma tradicional,
00:49
it would be that it's one of criminality, one of war.
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será como el crimen, como la guerra.
00:53
So how are you going to respond to it?
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¿Cómo responderemos entonces?
00:55
Naturally, it would follow that you meet kind with kind.
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Pues diente por diente. A luchar.
00:58
You fight it. If you have a more modernist approach,
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Si se tiene un punto de vista más moderno
01:02
and your perception of terrorism is almost cause-and-effect,
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y se percibe como una cuestión de causa-efecto,
01:06
then naturally from that, the responses that come out of it
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la respuesta natural será
01:10
are much more asymmetrical.
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mucho más asimétrica.
01:14
We live in a modern, global world.
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Vivimos en un mundo globalizado y moderno.
01:18
Terrorists have actually adapted to it.
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Y los terroristas se han adaptado.
01:22
It's something we have to, too, and that means the people
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Nosotros también deberíamos hacerlo.
01:25
who are working on counterterrorism responses
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Quienes trabajan en el contraterrorismo
01:28
have to start, in effect, putting on
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deberían verlo desde otra perspectiva
01:31
their Google-tinted glasses, or whatever.
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desde la perspectiva de Google o así
01:36
For my part, what I wanted us to do was just to look at
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Quiero proponerles que nos acerquemos
01:40
terrorism as though it was a global brand,
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al terrorismo como si fuera una marca internacional.
01:44
say, Coca-Cola.
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Coca-Cola, por ejemplo.
01:45
Both are fairly bad for your health. (Laughter)
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Ambos son malos para la salud. (Risas)
01:52
If you look at it as a brand in those ways,
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Si lo vemos como una marca,
01:56
what you'll come to realize is, it's a pretty flawed product.
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veremos que es un producto muy defectuoso.
01:59
As we've said, it's pretty bad for your health,
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Es malo para la salud:
02:02
it's bad for those who it affects,
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para la de los afectados
02:04
and it's not actually good if you're a suicide bomber either.
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y también para la de los propios terroristas suicidas.
02:07
It doesn't actually do what it says on the tin.
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No ofrece lo que pone en la lata.
02:11
You're not really going to get 72 virgins in heaven.
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No ofrece 72 vírgenes en el paraíso.
02:16
It's not going to happen, I don't think.
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No creo que eso suceda.
02:18
And you're not really going to, in the '80s, end capitalism
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Y pasados los 80, no vamos a acabar con el capitalismo
02:22
by supporting one of these groups. It's a load of nonsense.
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apoyando a estos grupos. Es absurdo.
02:25
But what you realize, it's got an Achilles' heel.
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Pero tiene su talón de Aquiles.
02:28
The brand has an Achilles' heel.
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La marca tiene un talón de Aquiles.
02:31
We've mentioned the health,
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Hablamos de la salud,
02:33
but it needs consumers to buy into it.
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pero hacen falta consumidores.
02:36
The consumers it needs are the terrorist constituency.
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Los consumidores serían el electorado terrorista.
02:40
They're the people who buy into the brand, support them,
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Los que apoyan la marca,
02:43
facilitate them, and they're the people
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los que la ayudan, con ellos tenemos
02:46
we've got to reach out to.
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que tratar.
02:49
We've got to attack that brand in front of them.
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Debemos atacar la marca delante de ellos.
02:52
There's two essential ways of doing that, if we carry on this brand theme.
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Siguiendo con el símil, hay dos formas de hacerlo.
02:56
One is reducing their market. What I mean is,
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Podemos reducir su mercado.
02:59
it's their brand against our brand. We've got to compete.
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Competir con otra marca en el mercado.
03:04
We've got to show we're a better product.
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Mostrarles que tenemos un mejor producto.
03:06
If I'm trying to show we're a better product,
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Para mostrar un mejor producto,
03:10
I probably wouldn't do things like Guantanamo Bay.
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cosas como Guantánamo no ayudan.
03:14
We've talked there about curtailing the underlying need
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Hemos hablado de reducir
las necesidades subyacentes
las necesidades subyacentes
03:18
for the product itself. You could be looking there at
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de tal producto, tales como
03:22
poverty, injustice, all those sorts of things
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la pobreza, la injusticia, y cosas así,
03:25
which feed terrorism.
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que ceban el terrorismo.
03:27
The other thing to do is to knock the product,
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También podemos criticar el producto,
03:31
attack the brand myth, as we've said.
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atacar la marca.
03:33
You know, there's nothing heroic about killing a young kid.
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¿Qué hay de heroico en matar a un niño?
03:36
Perhaps we need to focus on that and get that message back across.
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Quizá debamos centrarnos en enviar ese mensaje.
03:41
We've got to reveal the dangers in the product.
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Tenemos que destapar los peligros del producto.
03:44
Our target audience, it's not just the producers of terrorism,
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No sólo nos dirigimos a los terroristas,
03:48
as I've said, the terrorists.
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sino también a su público,
03:49
It's not just the marketeers of terrorism,
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que comprende tanto a los vendedores,
03:51
which is those who finance, those who facilitate it,
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como a los patrocinadores del terrorismo,
03:56
but it's the consumers of terrorism.
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y también a sus consumidores.
03:58
We've got to get in to those homelands.
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Tenemos que llegar a esos hogares.
04:01
That's where they recruit from. That's where they get their power and strength.
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Ahí es donde consiguen seguidores, poder y fuerza.
04:05
That's where their consumers come from.
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De ahí salen sus consumidores.
04:07
And we have to get our messaging in there.
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Y ahí debemos enviar nuestros mensajes.
04:11
So the essentials are, we've got to have interaction
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Lo básico, entonces, es interactuar
04:15
in those areas, with the terrorists, the facilitators, etc.
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con los terroristas, con sus seguidores, etc.
04:18
We've got to engage, we've got to educate,
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Debemos educarlos, interesarlos,
04:21
and we've got to have dialogue.
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debemos hablar con ellos.
04:24
Now, staying on this brand thing for just a few more seconds,
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Siguiendo con el símil,
04:28
think about delivery mechanisms.
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piensen en los métodos.
04:31
How are we going to do these attacks?
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¿Cómo vamos a atacar su marca?
04:33
Well, reducing the market is really one for governments
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Reducir el mercado implicará al gobierno
04:36
and civil society. We've got to show we're better.
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y a la sociedad civil. Les mostraremos nuestra calidad.
04:40
We've got to show our values.
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Nuestros valores.
04:43
We've got to practice what we preach.
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Tenemos que practicar lo que predicamos.
04:46
But when it comes to knocking the brand,
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Si queremos eliminar la marca...
04:48
if the terrorists are Coca-Cola and we're Pepsi,
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si los terroristas son Coca-Cola y nosotros Pepsi,
04:52
I don't think, being Pepsi, anything we say about Coca-Cola,
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nadie va a escuchar lo que Pepsi diga sobre Coca-Cola,
04:56
anyone's going to believe us.
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no nos creerán.
04:58
So we've got to find a different mechanism,
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Tenemos que encontrar otra manera,
05:01
and one of the best mechanisms I've ever come across
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y una de las mejores que yo conozco son
05:03
is the victims of terrorism.
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las víctimas del terrorismo.
05:06
They are somebody who can actually stand there and say,
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Gente que puede decir públicamente:
05:09
"This product's crap. I had it and I was sick for days.
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"Este producto es una mierda. Lo tomé y me puse enfermo.
05:13
It burnt my hand, whatever." You believe them.
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Me quemó la mano". Los creeremos.
05:17
You can see their scars. You trust them.
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Veremos sus cicatrices. Nos merecen confianza.
05:19
But whether it's victims, whether it's governments,
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Ya sea con las víctimas, con los gobiernos,
05:24
NGOs, or even the Queen yesterday, in Northern Ireland,
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las ONG o la reina ayer, en Irlanda del Norte,
05:30
we have to interact and engage with those different
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debemos llegar e implicar a los diferentes
05:34
layers of terrorism, and, in effect,
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estratos del terrorismo.
05:39
we do have to have a little dance with the devil.
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Sí, tenemos que bailar con el demonio.
05:43
This is my favorite part of my speech.
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Esta es mi parte favorita de la charla.
05:46
I wanted to blow you all up to try and make a point,
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Quería poner una bomba para explicarme bien,
05:49
but — (Laughter) —
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pero... (risas)
05:53
TED, for health and safety reasons, have told me
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por razones de salud y de seguridad, TED me obliga
05:56
I've got to do a countdown, so
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a hacer una cuenta atrás.
05:57
I feel like a bit of an Irish or Jewish terrorist,
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Me siento un poco como
un terrorista irlandés o judío,
un terrorista irlandés o judío,
06:00
sort of a health and safety terrorist, and I — (Laughter) —
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una especie de terrorista seguro y formal... (Risas)
06:06
I've got to count 3, 2, 1, and
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Tengo que contar 3, 2, 1.
06:09
it's a bit alarming, so thinking of what my motto would be,
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Asusta un poco, por lo que
mi eslogan sería algo como:
mi eslogan sería algo como:
06:12
and it would be, "Body parts, not heart attacks."
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"Cuerpos desmembrados
mejor que ataques al corazón."
mejor que ataques al corazón."
06:15
So 3, 2, 1. (Explosion sound)
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3, 2, 1. (Ruido de explosión)
06:21
Very good. (Laughter)
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Muy bien. (Risas)
06:26
Now, lady in 15J was a suicide bomber amongst us all.
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La señora de la 15J era una terrorista suicida.
06:33
We're all victims of terrorism.
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Ahora todos somos víctimas del terrorismo.
06:36
There's 625 of us in this room. We're going to be scarred for life.
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Los 625 de aquí quedaremos
traumatizados de por vida.
traumatizados de por vida.
06:40
There was a father and a son who sat in that seat over there.
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Un padre y un hijo se sentaban ahí.
06:45
The son's dead. The father lives.
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El hijo murió, el padre sobrevivió.
06:47
The father will probably kick himself for years to come
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El padre se reprochará toda la vida
06:53
that he didn't take that seat instead of his kid.
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el no haberse sentado en el otro sitio.
06:57
He's going to take to alcohol, and he's probably
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Se dará a la bebida y en tres años probablemente
06:59
going to kill himself in three years. That's the stats.
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se suicidará. Estadísticas.
07:04
There's a very young, attractive lady over here,
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Aquí hay una muchacha joven y guapa,
07:07
and she has something which I think's the worst form
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que ha sufrido una de las, para mí, peores lesiones
07:10
of psychological, physical injury I've ever seen
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físicas y psicológicas que he visto
07:13
out of a suicide bombing: It's human shrapnel.
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tras un atentado: la metralla.
07:17
What it means is, when she sat in a restaurant
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Significa que durante los próximos 10-15 años,
07:19
in years to come, 10 years to come, 15 years to come,
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cuando esté en un restaurante, o en la playa,
07:22
or she's on the beach, every so often she's going to start
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y se rasque la piel,
07:24
rubbing her skin, and out of there will come
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se arrancará otra pieza
07:27
a piece of that shrapnel.
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de metralla.
07:30
And that is a hard thing for the head to take.
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Y eso es algo insoportable para la mente.
07:35
There's a lady over there as well who lost her legs
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Aquella señora perdió las piernas
07:38
in this bombing.
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en el atentado.
07:41
She's going to find out that she gets a pitiful amount
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Descubrirá que el gobierno le dará una miseria
07:45
of money off our government
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para cuidarse
07:50
for looking after what's happened to her.
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en su situación
07:53
She had a daughter who was going to go to one of the best
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Su hija iba a ir a una de las mejores universidades.
07:55
universities. She's going to give up university
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Ahora dejará la universidad
07:58
to look after Mum.
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para cuidar a su madre.
08:01
We're all here, and all of those who watch it
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Estamos todos aquí. Los espectadores
08:04
are going to be traumatized by this event,
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quedarán traumatizados,
08:07
but all of you here who are victims are going to learn
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pero los asistentes, las víctimas, aprenderán
08:10
some hard truths.
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verdades dolorosas.
08:11
That is, our society, we sympathize, but after a while,
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La sociedad se compadece durante un tiempo,
08:16
we start to ignore. We don't do enough as a society.
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pero luego ignora. La sociedad no da lo suficiente.
08:20
We do not look after our victims, and we do not enable them,
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No cuida a sus víctimas, ni las capacita.
08:24
and what I'm going to try and show is that actually,
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Y les mostraré que las víctimas
08:27
victims are the best weapon we have
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son nuestra mejor arma
08:29
against more terrorism.
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contra el terrorismo futuro.
08:32
How would the government at the turn of the millennium
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¿Cómo reaccionan hoy día los gobiernos?
08:37
approach today? Well, we all know.
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Ya lo hemos visto.
08:39
What they'd have done then is an invasion.
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Utilizan las invasiones militares.
08:42
If the suicide bomber was from Wales,
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Si el terrorista era galés.
08:45
good luck to Wales, I'd say.
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¡Buena suerte, Gales!
08:47
Knee-jerk legislation, emergency provision legislation --
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La legislación refleja, la legislación urgente,
08:51
which hits at the very basis of our society, as we all know --
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ataca los fundamentos de nuestras sociedades.
08:54
it's a mistake.
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Es un error.
08:58
We're going to drive prejudice throughout Edinburgh,
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Vamos a extender los prejuicios contra los galeses
09:01
throughout the U.K., for Welsh people.
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por Edimburgo, por todo el Reino Unido.
09:06
Today's approach, governments have learned from their mistakes.
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Hoy día, los gobiernos
han aprendido de sus errores.
han aprendido de sus errores.
09:11
They are looking at what I've started off on,
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Analizan lo que dije al principio sobre
09:13
on these more asymmetrical approaches to it,
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las estrategias asimétricas,
visiones más modernistas,
visiones más modernistas,
09:17
more modernist views, cause and effect.
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causa y efecto.
09:20
But mistakes of the past are inevitable.
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Los errores del pasado no se pueden cambiar.
09:22
It's human nature.
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Está en la naturaleza humana.
09:24
The fear and the pressure to do something on them
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El miedo y la presión para que hagan algo
09:28
is going to be immense. They are going to make mistakes.
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será muy grande. Cometerán errores.
09:30
They're not just going to be smart.
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No siempre acertarán.
09:34
There was a famous Irish terrorist who once summed up
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Un conocido terrorista irlandés
09:37
the point very beautifully. He said,
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lo resumió muy bien:
09:40
"The thing is, about the British government, is, is that it's got
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"El gobierno británico tiene
que tener suerte siempre,
que tener suerte siempre,
09:42
to be lucky all the time, and we only have to be lucky once."
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nosotros tan solo una vez."
09:47
So what we need to do is we have to effect it.
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Debemos cambiarlo.
09:50
We've got to start thinking about being more proactive.
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Debemos proponernos ser más dinámicos.
09:53
We need to build an arsenal of noncombative weapons
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Necesitamos reunir un arsenal de armas no militares
09:57
in this war on terrorism.
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para la guerra contra el terrorismo.
09:59
But of course, it's ideas -- is not something that governments do very well.
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Pero los gobiernos no suelen
trabajar bien con ideas.
trabajar bien con ideas.
10:07
I want to go back just to before the bang, to this idea of
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Volvamos a la idea de la marca,
antes de la explosión,
antes de la explosión,
10:12
brand, and I was talking about Coke and Pepsi, etc.
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cuando hablábamos de Coca-cola y Pepsi.
10:16
We see it as terrorism versus democracy in that brand war.
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En esa guerra es el terrorismo contra la democracia.
10:20
They'll see it as freedom fighters and truth
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Ellos se ven como guerrilleros por la libertad
10:22
against injustice, imperialism, etc.
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contra la injusticia, el imperialismo, etc.
10:29
We do have to see this as a deadly battlefield.
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Debemos entenderlo como
una guerra a muerte.
una guerra a muerte.
10:33
It's not just [our] flesh and blood they want.
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No solo quieren nuestra sangre y huesos.
10:36
They actually want our cultural souls, and that's why
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Lo que quieren es nuestro espíritu cultural
10:39
the brand analogy is a very interesting way of looking at this.
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y por eso la analogía de la marca es interesante.
10:43
If we look at al Qaeda. Al Qaeda was essentially
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Al Qaeda, por ejemplo, era tan solo
10:47
a product on a shelf in a souk somewhere
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un producto almacenado
10:52
which not many people had heard of.
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que casi nadie conocía.
10:54
9/11 launched it. It was its big marketing day,
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El 11-S lo lanzó al estrellato. El día de estreno
10:58
and it was packaged for the 21st century. They knew what they were doing.
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con formato para el siglo XXI.
Sabían lo que hacían.
Sabían lo que hacían.
11:03
They were effectively [doing] something in this brand image
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Tomaron la marca y la abrieron a la creación
11:07
of creating a brand which can be franchised around
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de franquicias en los lugares
11:10
the world, where there's poverty, ignorance and injustice.
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llenos de pobreza, ignorancia e injusticia.
11:16
We, as I've said, have got to hit that market,
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Debemos llegar a ese mercado,
11:20
but we've got to use our heads rather than our might.
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pero con nuestras cabezas, no con la fuerza.
11:23
If we perceive it in this way as a brand, or other ways of thinking at it like this,
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Si lo vemos como una marca, o algo similar,
11:27
we will not resolve or counter terrorism.
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no llegaremos al contraterrorismo.
11:32
What I'd like to do is just briefly go through a few examples
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Me gustaría hablar brevemente
de algunos ejemplos
de algunos ejemplos
11:35
from my work on areas where we try and approach these things differently.
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del trabajo que hacemos.
11:40
The first one has been dubbed "lawfare,"
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El primero se llama "guerra legal"
11:44
for want of a better word.
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para mejorar el mundo.
11:47
When we originally looked at bringing civil actions against terrorists,
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Cuando sugerimos por primera vez
someter a los terrorista a acciones civiles,
someter a los terrorista a acciones civiles,
11:51
everyone thought we were a bit mad and mavericks
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todos nos pensaron locos, disidentes, chiflados.
11:53
and crackpots. Now it's got a title. Everyone's doing it.
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Ahora tiene un nombre y todos lo hacen.
11:57
There's a bomb, people start suing.
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Cuando hay un atentado, todo el mundo denuncia.
11:59
But one of the first early cases on this was the Omagh Bombing.
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Uno de los primeros casos
fue el atentado de Omagh.
fue el atentado de Omagh.
12:02
A civil action was brought from 1998.
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En 1998 se llevó a juicio.
12:06
In Omagh, bomb went off, Real IRA,
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En medio de un proceso de paz,
12:09
middle of a peace process.
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el IRA puso una bomba en Omagh.
12:12
That meant that the culprits couldn't really be prosecuted
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No se podía perseguir a los culpables
12:16
for lots of reasons, mostly to do with the peace process
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sobre todo por el proceso de paz
12:19
and what was going on, the greater good.
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y otras razones, por el bien común.
12:21
It also meant, then, if you can imagine this,
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Así, si es que lo pueden imaginar,
12:24
that the people who bombed your children
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los asesinos de sus hijos y sus maridos
12:26
and your husbands were walking around the supermarket
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compraban en mismo supermercado
12:31
that you lived in.
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donde Uds. vivían.
12:33
Some of those victims said enough is enough.
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Y algunas víctimas dijeron basta ya.
12:37
We brought a private action, and thank God, 10 years later,
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Se llevó a los tribunales y
10 años después ganamos.
10 años después ganamos.
12:40
we actually won it. There is a slight appeal on
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No podemos cantar victoria,
12:43
at the moment so I have to be a bit careful,
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porque ahora mismo hay una apelación,
12:45
but I'm fairly confident.
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pero tengo confianza.
12:47
Why was it effective?
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¿Funcionó?
12:48
It was effective not just because justice was seen to be done
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Funcionó no solo porque se hizo justicia
12:51
where there was a huge void.
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donde nunca se había hecho.
12:53
It was because the Real IRA and other terrorist groups,
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Funcionó porque el IRA Auténtico
y otros grupos terroristas
y otros grupos terroristas
12:57
their whole strength is from the fact that they are
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son fuertes porque siempre
han estado en desventaja.
han estado en desventaja.
12:59
an underdog. When we put the victims as the underdog
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Cuando las víctimas
se convirtieron en los desvalidos,
se convirtieron en los desvalidos,
13:04
and flipped it, they didn't know what to do.
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ya no sabían qué hacer.
13:07
They were embarrassed. Their recruitment went down.
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Estaban avergonzados.
El número de adhesiones bajó.
El número de adhesiones bajó.
13:12
The bombs actually stopped -- fact -- because of this action.
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Como consecuencia, dejaron de poner bombas.
13:16
We became, or those victims became, more importantly,
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Las víctimas se convirtieron en un fantasma
13:20
a ghost that haunted the terrorist organization.
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persiguiendo al grupo terrorista.
13:24
There's other examples. We have a case called Almog
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Hay otros ejemplos, como el caso Almog,
13:26
which is to do with a bank that was,
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relacionado un banco que,
13:31
allegedly, from our point of view,
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desde nuestro punto de vista,
13:34
giving rewards to suicide bombers.
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recompensaba a los terroristas suicidas.
13:38
Just by bringing the very action,
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Simplemente tomando medidas,
13:41
that bank has stopped doing it, and indeed,
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el banco dejó de hacerlo y
13:43
the powers that be around the world, which for real politic
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los poderes internacionales que,
por razones políticas concretas,
por razones políticas concretas,
13:45
reasons before, couldn't actually deal with this issue,
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no podían resolver este problema,
13:49
because there was lots of competing interests,
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al haber muchos intereses contrapuestos,
13:50
have actually closed down those loopholes in the banking system.
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han podido eliminar las lagunas legales
del sistema bancario.
del sistema bancario.
13:53
There's another case called the McDonald case,
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En el caso McDonald, algunas víctimas del
13:56
where some victims of Semtex, of the Provisional IRA bombings,
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IRA Provisional, atacadas con Semtex,
14:00
which were supplied by Gaddafi, sued,
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que les había suministrado Gaddafi, los demandaron
14:07
and that action has led to amazing things for new Libya.
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y provocaron cambios increíbles en la nueva Libia.
14:12
New Libya has been compassionate towards those victims,
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La nueva Libia ha mostrado
compasión hacia las víctimas
compasión hacia las víctimas
14:15
and started taking it -- so it started a whole new dialogue there.
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y se lo tomó en serio, iniciando diálogos.
14:18
But the problem is, we need more and more support
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Pero necesitamos mucho más apoyo
14:23
for these ideas and cases.
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para estas ideas, para estas iniciativas sociales
14:26
Civil affairs and civil society initiatives.
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y estos asuntos civiles.
14:30
A good one is in Somalia. There's a war on piracy.
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Somalia es un buen caso: la guerra contra la piratería.
14:33
If anyone thinks you can have a war on piracy
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Si alguien piensa que se puede luchar
contra la piratería
contra la piratería
14:34
like a war on terrorism and beat it, you're wrong.
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o el terrorismo y vencer, se equivoca.
14:37
What we're trying to do there is turn pirates to fisherman.
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Nosotros intentamos que los piratas
se hagan pescadores,
se hagan pescadores,
14:40
They used to be fisherman, of course,
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lo que solían hacer, claro,
14:42
but we stole their fish and dumped a load of toxic waste
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hasta que les robamos la pesca
y vertimos desperdicios tóxicos
y vertimos desperdicios tóxicos
14:45
in their water, so what we're trying to do is create
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en sus aguas. Ahora intentamos crear un servicio
14:49
security and employment by bringing a coastguard
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de guardacosta asociado a la industria pesquera,
14:51
along with the fisheries industry, and I can guarantee you,
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que crea empleo y seguridad. Les garantizo que así
14:54
as that builds, al Shabaab and such likes will not have
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Al Shabab y otros tantos no podrán aprovecharse
14:57
the poverty and injustice any longer to prey on those people.
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de la pobreza y la injusticia para captar a gente.
15:01
These initiatives cost less than a missile,
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Estas iniciativas son más baratas que un misil
15:05
and certainly less than any soldier's life,
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o la vida de cualquier soldado, pero sobre todo
15:08
but more importantly, it takes the war to their homelands,
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al mirar las causas, llevamos la guerra a su origen
15:11
and not onto our shore,
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y no la traemos
15:13
and we're looking at the causes.
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a nuestro territorio.
15:15
The last one I wanted to talk about was dialogue.
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Por último, quiero hablar sobre el diálogo.
15:18
The advantages of dialogue are obvious.
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Las ventajas están claras.
15:21
It self-educates both sides, enables a better understanding,
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Educa a los participantes,
permite un mejor entendimiento,
permite un mejor entendimiento,
15:25
reveals the strengths and weaknesses,
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muestra las fortalezas y debilidades
15:27
and yes, like some of the speakers before,
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y también, como mencionaron otros,
15:30
the shared vulnerability does lead to trust, and
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la vulnerabilidad compartida produce confianza,
15:34
it does then become, that process, part of normalization.
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y ese proceso se convierte en parte
de la normalización.
de la normalización.
15:37
But it's not an easy road. After the bomb,
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No es un camino fácil.
Tras la bomba
Tras la bomba
15:41
the victims are not into this.
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las víctimas no lo apoyan.
15:45
There's practical problems.
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Hay problemas prácticos.
15:46
It's politically risky for the protagonists
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Políticamente, es arriesgado
para los protagonistas
para los protagonistas
15:49
and for the interlocutors. On one occasion
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y para los interlocutores. Haciendo esto
15:52
I was doing it, every time I did a point that they didn't like,
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una vez, cada vez que decía algo
que no les gustaban
que no les gustaban
15:55
they actually threw stones at me,
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me tiraban piedras,
15:56
and when I did a point they liked,
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y cuando les gustaba,
15:58
they starting shooting in the air, equally not great. (Laughter)
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tiroteaban al aire. Igual de desagradable. (Risas)
16:03
Whatever the point, it gets to the heart of the problem,
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Sea lo que sea, uno se acerca al centro del problema
16:06
you're doing it, you're talking to them.
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al hablar directamente con ellos.
16:08
Now, I just want to end with saying, if we follow reason,
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Solo quiero añadir que, siendo razonables,
16:12
we realize that I think we'd all say that we want to
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el terrorismo no debería percibirse
16:17
have a perception of terrorism which is not just a pure
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solamente como
16:20
military perception of it.
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una cuestión militar.
16:24
We need to foster more
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Debemos fomentar
16:26
modern and asymmetrical responses to it.
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las respuestas modernas y asimétricas.
16:29
This isn't about being soft on terrorism.
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No se trata de ser blandos con el terrorismo.
16:32
It's about fighting them on contemporary battlefields.
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Se trata de luchar con armas actuales.
16:35
We must foster innovation, as I've said.
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Debemos fomentar la innovación.
16:38
Governments are receptive. It won't come from those dusty corridors.
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Los gobiernos no son receptivos.
Con ellos no lograremos nada.
Con ellos no lograremos nada.
16:42
The private sector has a role.
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El sector privado tiene cierta responsabilidad.
16:44
The role we could do right now is going away
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Ahora mismo podríamos analizar la situación
16:47
and looking at how we can support victims around the world
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y ver cómo podemos apoyar a las víctimas
16:51
to bring initiatives.
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a organizar iniciativas.
16:52
If I was to leave you with some big questions here which
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Si tuviera que elegir las preguntas
16:55
may change one's perception to it, and who knows what
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que cambiarían nuestra percepción,
16:58
thoughts and responses will come out of it,
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nuestra opinión y nuestras respuestas...
17:01
but did myself and my terrorist group actually need
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¿teníamos que poner una bomba
17:05
to blow you up to make our point?
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para conseguir lo que queríamos?
17:08
We have to ask ourselves these questions, however unpalatable.
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Aunque sea difícil, debemos preguntárnoslo.
17:12
Have we been ignoring an injustice or a humanitarian
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¿Hemos ignorado alguna injusticia o crisis humanitaria
17:16
struggle somewhere in the world?
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en algún lugar del mundo?
17:18
What if, actually, engagement on poverty and injustice
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¿Y si lo que los terroristas quisieran fuera
17:21
is exactly what the terrorists wanted us to do?
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nuestro compromiso contra la injusticia y la pobreza?
17:23
What if the bombs are just simply wake-up calls for us?
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¿Y si las bomba fueran simplemente despertadores?
17:26
What happens if that bomb went off
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¿Y si las bombas hubieran explotado
17:30
because we didn't have any thoughts and things in place
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porque no había suficientes herramientas
17:33
to allow dialogue to deal with these things and interaction?
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para el diálogo y la interacción?
17:38
What is definitely uncontroversial
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Sobre lo que no hay ninguna duda
17:41
is that, as I've said, we've got to stop being reactive,
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es que debemos ser menos reactivos
17:43
and more proactive, and I just want to leave you
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y más proactivos. Me gustaría dejarles
17:46
with one idea, which is that
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con una idea,
17:50
it's a provocative question for you to think about,
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una cuestión provocadora para que reflexionen.
17:53
and the answer will require sympathy with the devil.
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Para responder tendrán que aliarse con el diablo.
17:57
It's a question that's been tackled by many great thinkers
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A ella se han enfrentado muchos grandes pensadores
18:00
and writers: What if society actually needs crisis to change?
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y escritores: ¿y si la sociedad avanza
gracias a las crisis?
gracias a las crisis?
18:05
What if society actually needs terrorism
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¿Y si necesitamos el terrorismo
18:09
to change and adapt for the better?
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para avanzar y mejorar?
18:10
It's those Bulgakov themes, it's that picture of Jesus
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Como los motivos de Bulgakov, la imagen de Jesús
18:15
and the Devil hand in hand in Gethsemane
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y el demonio de la mano en Getsemaní,
18:18
walking into the moonlight.
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a la luz de la luna.
18:20
What it would mean is that humans,
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Significaría que los humanos,
18:23
in order to survive in development,
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para sobrevivir y desarrollarse,
18:26
quite Darwinian spirit here,
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hablando con espíritu darwiniano,
18:28
inherently must dance with the devil.
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deben aliarse con el demonio.
18:32
A lot of people say that communism was defeated
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Muchos dicen que fueron los Rolling Stones
18:37
by the Rolling Stones. It's a good theory.
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los que vencieron al comunismo. Buena teoría.
18:41
Maybe the Rolling Stones has a place in this.
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Quizá aquí también puedan hacer algo.
18:43
Thank you.
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Gracias.
18:46
(Music) (Applause)
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(Música) (Aplausos)
18:55
Bruno Giussani: Thank you. (Applause)
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Bruno Giussani: Gracias. (Aplausos)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Jason McCue - LawyerJason McCue litigates against terrorists, dictators and others who seem above the law, using the legal and judicial system in innovative ways.
Why you should listen
Jason McCue uses the legal system of the UK (and increasingly the world) to fight for human rights. In 2009, he won a landmark civil case at the high court in Belfast that resulted in a settlement for victims of the 1998 Omagh bombing by the Real IRA -- after attempts to prosecute the group in criminal courts had failed. It was a bold legal strategy now being copied for other victims, such as those of Libyan-supported terrorism and of the attacks in London and Mumbai. In September 2011 he and his firm launched another strategy for prosecuting Alexander Lukashenko, the dictator of Belarus, on counts of torture and hostage-taking: creating a "prosecution kit" to be sent to courts around the world. Wherever Lukashenko travels, he now faces the prospect of prosecution.
McCue is also a partner, with his wife, TV star Mariella Frostrup, of the GREAT Initiative: the Gender Rights and Equality Action Trust.
Jason McCue | Speaker | TED.com