TEDGlobal 2012
Jason McCue: Terrorism is a failed brand
Džejson Mekkju (Jason McCue): Terorizam je propali brend
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Readability: 4.1
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U ovom snažnom govoru, advokat Džejson Mekkju poziva na nov način napada na terorizam, kako bi se oslabio njegov kredibilitet kod onih koji ga "kupuju" - regruta. On priča stvarne priče o slučajevima kad je sa drugim aktivistima koristio ovaj pristup da bi pokrenuo ljude i napravio promenu.
Jason McCue - Lawyer
Jason McCue litigates against terrorists, dictators and others who seem above the law, using the legal and judicial system in innovative ways. Full bio
Jason McCue litigates against terrorists, dictators and others who seem above the law, using the legal and judicial system in innovative ways. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:16
We most certainly do talk to terrorists, no question about it.
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Mi definitivno razgovaramo
sa teroristima, to nije sporno.
sa teroristima, to nije sporno.
00:21
We are at war with a new form of terrorism.
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U ratu smo sa novom vrstom terorizma.
00:27
It's sort of the good old, traditional form of terrorism,
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To je verzija dobrog, starog,
tradicionalnog oblika terorizma,
tradicionalnog oblika terorizma,
00:30
but it's sort of been packaged for the 21st century.
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ali upakovana za 21. vek.
00:34
One of the big things about countering terrorism
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Jedna od bitnijih stvari
u borbi protiv terorizma
u borbi protiv terorizma
00:38
is, how do you perceive it?
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je, kako ga mi uopšte doživljavamo?
00:41
Because perception leads to your response to it.
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Upravo percepcija utiče
na vaš odgovor na terorizam.
na vaš odgovor na terorizam.
00:45
So if you have a traditional perception of terrorism,
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Ako imate tradicionalno
shvatanje terorizma,
shvatanje terorizma,
00:49
it would be that it's one of criminality, one of war.
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on bi se poistovećivao
sa kriminalitetom, sa ratom.
sa kriminalitetom, sa ratom.
00:53
So how are you going to respond to it?
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Dakle, kako ćete da odgovorite
na njega?
na njega?
00:55
Naturally, it would follow that you meet kind with kind.
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Prirodno bi bilo
da uzvratite istom merom.
da uzvratite istom merom.
00:58
You fight it. If you have a more modernist approach,
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Da se borite protiv njega.
Ako imate savremeniji pristup,
Ako imate savremeniji pristup,
01:02
and your perception of terrorism is almost cause-and-effect,
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i vaše shvatanje terorizma
je skoro uzrok-posledica,
je skoro uzrok-posledica,
01:06
then naturally from that, the responses that come out of it
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onda iz toga sledi da su mere
koje proizlaze iz toga
koje proizlaze iz toga
01:10
are much more asymmetrical.
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mnogo više asimetrične.
01:14
We live in a modern, global world.
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Živimo u modernom, globalnom svetu.
01:18
Terrorists have actually adapted to it.
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Teroristi su se adaptirali na njega.
01:22
It's something we have to, too, and that means the people
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To je nešto što i mi moramo da uradimo,
a to znači da ljudi
a to znači da ljudi
01:25
who are working on counterterrorism responses
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koji rade
na protivterorističkim aktivnostima
na protivterorističkim aktivnostima
01:28
have to start, in effect, putting on
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moraju bukvalno početi da koriste
01:31
their Google-tinted glasses, or whatever.
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savremene metode.
01:36
For my part, what I wanted us to do was just to look at
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S moje strane, želeo sam
da pogledam
da pogledam
01:40
terrorism as though it was a global brand,
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terorizam kao da je globalni brend,
01:44
say, Coca-Cola.
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recimo, Koka Kola.
01:45
Both are fairly bad for your health. (Laughter)
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Oba su prilično loša po vaše zdravlje.
(Smeh)
(Smeh)
01:52
If you look at it as a brand in those ways,
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Ako ga posmatrate
kao brend na takav način,
kao brend na takav način,
01:56
what you'll come to realize is, it's a pretty flawed product.
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ono što ćete shvatiti je,
da je to faličan proizvod.
da je to faličan proizvod.
01:59
As we've said, it's pretty bad for your health,
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Kao što smo rekli, prilično je loš
po vaše zdravlje,
po vaše zdravlje,
02:02
it's bad for those who it affects,
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loš je po one na koje utiče,
02:04
and it's not actually good if you're a suicide bomber either.
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a nije dobar po vas ni ako ste
bombaš samoubica.
bombaš samoubica.
02:07
It doesn't actually do what it says on the tin.
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Ne radi ono što obećava
na pakovanju.
na pakovanju.
02:11
You're not really going to get 72 virgins in heaven.
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Nećete zaista dobiti 72 device u raju.
02:16
It's not going to happen, I don't think.
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To se neće desiti, ne verujem.
02:18
And you're not really going to, in the '80s, end capitalism
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I nećete stvarno, u '80.
da uništite kapitalizam
da uništite kapitalizam
02:22
by supporting one of these groups. It's a load of nonsense.
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podržavajući neku od ovih grupa.
To je gomila besmislica.
To je gomila besmislica.
02:25
But what you realize, it's got an Achilles' heel.
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Ono što ćete shvatiti,
je da ima Ahilovu petu.
je da ima Ahilovu petu.
02:28
The brand has an Achilles' heel.
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Taj brend ima Ahilovu petu.
02:31
We've mentioned the health,
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Pomenuli smo zdravlje,
02:33
but it needs consumers to buy into it.
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ali mu trebaju potrošači
da poveruju u njega.
da poveruju u njega.
02:36
The consumers it needs are the terrorist constituency.
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Potrošači koji su mu potrebni
su terorističke grupe.
su terorističke grupe.
02:40
They're the people who buy into the brand, support them,
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Oni su ljudi koji veruju u brend,
podržavaju ga,
podržavaju ga,
02:43
facilitate them, and they're the people
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snabdevaju ga i to su ljudi
02:46
we've got to reach out to.
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kojima moramo da se približimo.
02:49
We've got to attack that brand in front of them.
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Moramo da napadnemo brend ispred njih.
02:52
There's two essential ways of doing that, if we carry on this brand theme.
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Postoje 2 suštinska načina da to izvedemo,
ako nastavimo sa temom brenda.
ako nastavimo sa temom brenda.
02:56
One is reducing their market. What I mean is,
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Prvi je da smanjimo njihovo tržište.
To znači
To znači
02:59
it's their brand against our brand. We've got to compete.
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da je naš brend protiv njihovog.
Moramo da se takmičimo.
Moramo da se takmičimo.
03:04
We've got to show we're a better product.
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Moramo da pokažemo
da smo bolji proizvod.
da smo bolji proizvod.
03:06
If I'm trying to show we're a better product,
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Ako pokušavam da pokažem
da smo bolji proizvod,
da smo bolji proizvod,
03:10
I probably wouldn't do things like Guantanamo Bay.
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verovatno se neću baviti
stvarima poput zatvora Gvantanamo.
stvarima poput zatvora Gvantanamo.
03:14
We've talked there about curtailing the underlying need
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Tamo smo pričali
o suzbijanju osnovne potrebe
o suzbijanju osnovne potrebe
03:18
for the product itself. You could be looking there at
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za samim proizvodom.
Tamo možete da vidite
Tamo možete da vidite
03:22
poverty, injustice, all those sorts of things
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siromaštvo, nepravdu, sve te stvari
03:25
which feed terrorism.
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koje hrane terorizam.
03:27
The other thing to do is to knock the product,
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Druga stvar koja treba da se uradi
je da se uzdrma proizvod,
je da se uzdrma proizvod,
03:31
attack the brand myth, as we've said.
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da se napadne sam mit brenda,
kao što smo rekli.
kao što smo rekli.
03:33
You know, there's nothing heroic about killing a young kid.
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Znate, nema ničeg herojskog
u ubijanju deteta.
u ubijanju deteta.
03:36
Perhaps we need to focus on that and get that message back across.
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Možda treba na to da se fokusiramo
i da prenesemo tu poruku.
i da prenesemo tu poruku.
03:41
We've got to reveal the dangers in the product.
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Moramo da otkrijemo opasnosti
u proizvodu.
u proizvodu.
03:44
Our target audience, it's not just the producers of terrorism,
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Naša ciljana publika nisu samo
proizvođači terorizma,
proizvođači terorizma,
03:48
as I've said, the terrorists.
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kao što sam rekao, teroristi.
03:49
It's not just the marketeers of terrorism,
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Nisu samo trgovci terorizmom,
03:51
which is those who finance, those who facilitate it,
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a to su oni koji ga finansiraju,
koji ga snabdevaju,
koji ga snabdevaju,
03:56
but it's the consumers of terrorism.
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već korisnici terorizma.
03:58
We've got to get in to those homelands.
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Moramo da se približimo tim državama.
04:01
That's where they recruit from. That's where they get their power and strength.
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Tamo gde se regrutuju.
Tamo gde dobijaju moć i snagu.
Tamo gde dobijaju moć i snagu.
04:05
That's where their consumers come from.
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Odatle njihovi korisnici dolaze.
04:07
And we have to get our messaging in there.
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Mi moramo da pošaljemo
našu poruku tamo.
našu poruku tamo.
04:11
So the essentials are, we've got to have interaction
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Osnovne stvari su,
moramo da imamo interakciju
moramo da imamo interakciju
04:15
in those areas, with the terrorists, the facilitators, etc.
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u tim oblastima, sa teroristima,
snabdevačima itd.
snabdevačima itd.
04:18
We've got to engage, we've got to educate,
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Moramo da se angažujemo,
moramo da edukujemo,
moramo da edukujemo,
04:21
and we've got to have dialogue.
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i moramo da imamo dijalog.
04:24
Now, staying on this brand thing for just a few more seconds,
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Sada, ako pratimo ovu ideju
brenda još nekoliko sekundi,
brenda još nekoliko sekundi,
04:28
think about delivery mechanisms.
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razmislite o sistemu dostavljanja.
04:31
How are we going to do these attacks?
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Kako ćemo da izvedemo ove napade?
04:33
Well, reducing the market is really one for governments
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Pa, smanjenje tržišta je mera vlada
04:36
and civil society. We've got to show we're better.
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i civilnog društva.
Moramo da pokažemo da smo bolji.
Moramo da pokažemo da smo bolji.
04:40
We've got to show our values.
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Moramo da pokažemo naše vrednosti.
04:43
We've got to practice what we preach.
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Moramo da praktikujemo
ono što propovedamo.
ono što propovedamo.
04:46
But when it comes to knocking the brand,
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Ali kada dođe do rušenja brenda,
04:48
if the terrorists are Coca-Cola and we're Pepsi,
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ako su teroristi Koka Kola,
a mi smo Pepsi,
a mi smo Pepsi,
04:52
I don't think, being Pepsi, anything we say about Coca-Cola,
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ja mislim da, sve što kao Pepsi
kažemo o Koka Koli,
kažemo o Koka Koli,
04:56
anyone's going to believe us.
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niko neće verovati.
04:58
So we've got to find a different mechanism,
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Zato moramo da nađemo
drugi mehanizam,
drugi mehanizam,
05:01
and one of the best mechanisms I've ever come across
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a jedan od najboljih mehanizama
na koje sam naišao
na koje sam naišao
05:03
is the victims of terrorism.
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su žrtve terorizma.
05:06
They are somebody who can actually stand there and say,
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Oni su ti koji mogu
zaista da stanu i kažu:
zaista da stanu i kažu:
05:09
"This product's crap. I had it and I was sick for days.
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"Ovaj proizvod je sranje.
Uzeo sam ga i bio sam bolestan danima.
Uzeo sam ga i bio sam bolestan danima.
05:13
It burnt my hand, whatever." You believe them.
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I opekao sam se, šta god."
Vi im verujete.
Vi im verujete.
05:17
You can see their scars. You trust them.
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Možete da vidite njihove ožiljke.
Imate poverenja u njih.
Imate poverenja u njih.
05:19
But whether it's victims, whether it's governments,
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Bilo da su žrtve, bilo da su vlade,
05:24
NGOs, or even the Queen yesterday, in Northern Ireland,
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nevladine organizacije, pa čak
i kraljica juče, u Severnoj Irskoj,
i kraljica juče, u Severnoj Irskoj,
05:30
we have to interact and engage with those different
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moramo da sarađujemo
sa tim različitim
sa tim različitim
05:34
layers of terrorism, and, in effect,
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slojevima terorizma i zapravo,
05:39
we do have to have a little dance with the devil.
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moramo da plešemo sa đavolom.
05:43
This is my favorite part of my speech.
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Ovo je moj omiljeni deo govora.
05:46
I wanted to blow you all up to try and make a point,
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Hteo sam sve da vas dignem u vazduh
i istaknem poentu,
i istaknem poentu,
05:49
but — (Laughter) —
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ali - (Smeh)
05:53
TED, for health and safety reasons, have told me
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su mi u TED-u iz bezbednosnih
i zdravstvenih razloga rekli
i zdravstvenih razloga rekli
05:56
I've got to do a countdown, so
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da moram da odbrojavam, tako da
05:57
I feel like a bit of an Irish or Jewish terrorist,
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se osećam kao irski
ili jevrejski terorista,
ili jevrejski terorista,
06:00
sort of a health and safety terrorist, and I — (Laughter) —
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neka vrsta zdravstvenog
i bezbednosnog teroriste, i ja - (Smeh)
i bezbednosnog teroriste, i ja - (Smeh)
06:06
I've got to count 3, 2, 1, and
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moram da odbrojavam 3, 2, 1 i
06:09
it's a bit alarming, so thinking of what my motto would be,
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malo je uznemiravajuće, zato razmišljajući
šta bi bio moj moto,
šta bi bio moj moto,
06:12
and it would be, "Body parts, not heart attacks."
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bio bi: "Delovi tela, ne srčani udari."
06:15
So 3, 2, 1. (Explosion sound)
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Zato 3, 2, 1.
(Zvuk eksplozije)
(Zvuk eksplozije)
06:21
Very good. (Laughter)
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Vrlo dobro.
(Smeh)
(Smeh)
06:26
Now, lady in 15J was a suicide bomber amongst us all.
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Gospođa na mestu 15J je
bombaš samoubica među nama.
bombaš samoubica među nama.
06:33
We're all victims of terrorism.
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Svi smo žrtve terorizma.
06:36
There's 625 of us in this room. We're going to be scarred for life.
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Nas je 625 u prostoriji.
Nosićemo ožiljke ceo život.
Nosićemo ožiljke ceo život.
06:40
There was a father and a son who sat in that seat over there.
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Otac i sin su sedeli
na tom mestu tamo.
na tom mestu tamo.
06:45
The son's dead. The father lives.
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Sin je poginuo. Otac je živ.
06:47
The father will probably kick himself for years to come
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Otac će verovatno godinama da se jede
06:53
that he didn't take that seat instead of his kid.
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što nije seo na to mesto
umesto svog deteta.
umesto svog deteta.
06:57
He's going to take to alcohol, and he's probably
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Počeće da se opija i najverovatnije
06:59
going to kill himself in three years. That's the stats.
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će se ubiti u roku od 3 godine.
To je statistika.
To je statistika.
07:04
There's a very young, attractive lady over here,
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Jedna veoma mlada,
atraktivna dama je bila ovde,
atraktivna dama je bila ovde,
07:07
and she has something which I think's the worst form
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i ona ima nešto za šta mislim
da je najgori oblik
da je najgori oblik
07:10
of psychological, physical injury I've ever seen
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psihološke, fizičke povrede
koju sam ikad video
koju sam ikad video
07:13
out of a suicide bombing: It's human shrapnel.
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kod bombaša samoubica:
to je ljudski šrapnel.
to je ljudski šrapnel.
07:17
What it means is, when she sat in a restaurant
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To znači da,
kada ona sedne u restoran,
kada ona sedne u restoran,
07:19
in years to come, 10 years to come, 15 years to come,
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u godima koje će doći,
narednih 10, 15 godina,
narednih 10, 15 godina,
07:22
or she's on the beach, every so often she's going to start
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ili je na plaži,
s vremena na vreme počeće
s vremena na vreme počeće
07:24
rubbing her skin, and out of there will come
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da se češe i odatle će ispasti
07:27
a piece of that shrapnel.
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komadić tog šrapnela.
07:30
And that is a hard thing for the head to take.
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A to je jako komplikovano
mozgu da shvati.
mozgu da shvati.
07:35
There's a lady over there as well who lost her legs
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Tamo je žena koja je izgubila noge
07:38
in this bombing.
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u ovom bombaškom napadu.
07:41
She's going to find out that she gets a pitiful amount
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Ona će da otkrije
da će dobiti bednu količinu
da će dobiti bednu količinu
07:45
of money off our government
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novca od naše vlade
07:50
for looking after what's happened to her.
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na osnovu toga što joj se desilo.
07:53
She had a daughter who was going to go to one of the best
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Imala je kćerku koja je trebalo
da ide na jedan od najboljih univerziteta.
da ide na jedan od najboljih univerziteta.
07:55
universities. She's going to give up university
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Ona će da odustane od univerziteta
07:58
to look after Mum.
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da bi se brinula o majci.
08:01
We're all here, and all of those who watch it
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Svi smo ovde i svi koji gledaju
08:04
are going to be traumatized by this event,
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će biti istraumirani ovim događajem,
08:07
but all of you here who are victims are going to learn
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ali svi vi koji ste žrtve ćete naučiti
08:10
some hard truths.
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neke teške istine.
08:11
That is, our society, we sympathize, but after a while,
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A to je da naše društvo saoseća,
ali posle nekog vremena,
ali posle nekog vremena,
08:16
we start to ignore. We don't do enough as a society.
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počne da ignoriše.
Mi ne činimo dovoljno kao zajednica.
Mi ne činimo dovoljno kao zajednica.
08:20
We do not look after our victims, and we do not enable them,
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Ne vodimo računa o žrtvama
i ne omogućavamo im,
i ne omogućavamo im,
08:24
and what I'm going to try and show is that actually,
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i ono što ću pokušati da pokažem
je da su zapravo,
je da su zapravo,
08:27
victims are the best weapon we have
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žrtve najbolje oružje koje imamo
08:29
against more terrorism.
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protiv još više terorizma.
08:32
How would the government at the turn of the millennium
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Kakav pristup će imati vlada,
na prekretnici milenijuma?
na prekretnici milenijuma?
08:37
approach today? Well, we all know.
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Pa, svi znamo.
08:39
What they'd have done then is an invasion.
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Ono što bi oni uradili je invazija.
08:42
If the suicide bomber was from Wales,
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Ako je bombaš samoubica iz Velsa,
08:45
good luck to Wales, I'd say.
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doviđenja Vels, rekao bih.
08:47
Knee-jerk legislation, emergency provision legislation --
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Ishitreni i zakoni
u hitnim situacijama -
u hitnim situacijama -
08:51
which hits at the very basis of our society, as we all know --
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koji kao što znamo, udaraju
u samu osnovu našeg društva -
u samu osnovu našeg društva -
08:54
it's a mistake.
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su greška.
08:58
We're going to drive prejudice throughout Edinburgh,
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Kroz Edinburg i Britaniju
09:01
throughout the U.K., for Welsh people.
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ćemo promovisati predrasude
o Velšanima.
o Velšanima.
09:06
Today's approach, governments have learned from their mistakes.
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Današnji pristup su vlade naučile
kroz svoje greške.
kroz svoje greške.
09:11
They are looking at what I've started off on,
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Gledaju na ono od čega sam ja počeo,
09:13
on these more asymmetrical approaches to it,
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na ove asimetričnije pristupe,
09:17
more modernist views, cause and effect.
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modernije poglede, uzrok i posledicu.
09:20
But mistakes of the past are inevitable.
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Ali greške prošlosti su neizbežne.
09:22
It's human nature.
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To je ljudska priroda.
09:24
The fear and the pressure to do something on them
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Strah i pritisak da se nešto učini
biće preveliki.
biće preveliki.
09:28
is going to be immense. They are going to make mistakes.
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Grešiće.
09:30
They're not just going to be smart.
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Neće biti samo pametni.
09:34
There was a famous Irish terrorist who once summed up
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Jedan poznati irski terorista
09:37
the point very beautifully. He said,
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je to jednom divno sročio:
09:40
"The thing is, about the British government, is, is that it's got
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"Stvar sa britanskim vladom je da mora
stalno da ima sreće,
stalno da ima sreće,
09:42
to be lucky all the time, and we only have to be lucky once."
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a nama treba da se posreći
samo jednom."
samo jednom."
09:47
So what we need to do is we have to effect it.
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Mi moramo da utičemo.
09:50
We've got to start thinking about being more proactive.
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Da postanemo proaktivniji.
09:53
We need to build an arsenal of noncombative weapons
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Da izgradimo arsenal
neborbenog oružja
neborbenog oružja
09:57
in this war on terrorism.
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u ovom ratu protiv terorizma.
09:59
But of course, it's ideas -- is not something that governments do very well.
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Ali naravno, to su ideje - ne nešto
u čemu su vlade baš dobre.
u čemu su vlade baš dobre.
10:07
I want to go back just to before the bang, to this idea of
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Želim da se vratim
neposredno pre eksplozije,
neposredno pre eksplozije,
10:12
brand, and I was talking about Coke and Pepsi, etc.
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na ideju brenda, govorio sam
o Koka Koli i Pepsiju itd.
o Koka Koli i Pepsiju itd.
10:16
We see it as terrorism versus democracy in that brand war.
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U tom ratu brendova mi to vidimo
kao terorizam protiv demokratije.
kao terorizam protiv demokratije.
10:20
They'll see it as freedom fighters and truth
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Oni to vide kao borce
za slobodu i istinu
za slobodu i istinu
10:22
against injustice, imperialism, etc.
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protiv nepravde, imperijalizma itd.
10:29
We do have to see this as a deadly battlefield.
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Moramo to shvatiti
kao smrtonosno bojno polje.
kao smrtonosno bojno polje.
10:33
It's not just [our] flesh and blood they want.
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Oni ne žele samo našu krv.
10:36
They actually want our cultural souls, and that's why
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Žele duše naše kulture,
i zato je analogija
i zato je analogija
10:39
the brand analogy is a very interesting way of looking at this.
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sa brendom veoma zanimljiv
način posmatranja.
način posmatranja.
10:43
If we look at al Qaeda. Al Qaeda was essentially
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Pogledajmo Al Kaidu
koja je bila proizvod
koja je bila proizvod
10:47
a product on a shelf in a souk somewhere
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negde na nekoj polici,
na nekoj pijaci
na nekoj pijaci
10:52
which not many people had heard of.
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za koju mnogi nisu čuli.
10:54
9/11 launched it. It was its big marketing day,
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11. septembar ju je lansirao,
bio je to veliki marketinški dan,
bio je to veliki marketinški dan,
10:58
and it was packaged for the 21st century. They knew what they were doing.
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i bila je upakovana za 21. vek.
Znali su šta rade.
Znali su šta rade.
11:03
They were effectively [doing] something in this brand image
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Oni su bukvalno
11:07
of creating a brand which can be franchised around
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stvarali brend koji može da se
proširi u svet
proširi u svet
11:10
the world, where there's poverty, ignorance and injustice.
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gde ima siromaštva, neznanja
i nepravde.
i nepravde.
11:16
We, as I've said, have got to hit that market,
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Kao što sam rekao,
moramo da izađemo na to tržište,
moramo da izađemo na to tržište,
11:20
but we've got to use our heads rather than our might.
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ali da koristimo um, pre nego snagu.
11:23
If we perceive it in this way as a brand, or other ways of thinking at it like this,
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Ako to posmatramo kao brend
ili na sličan način,
ili na sličan način,
11:27
we will not resolve or counter terrorism.
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nećemo razrešiti
ili zaustaviti terorizam.
ili zaustaviti terorizam.
11:32
What I'd like to do is just briefly go through a few examples
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Želim da ukratko predstavim
primere iz svog posla
primere iz svog posla
11:35
from my work on areas where we try and approach these things differently.
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gde drugačije pristupamo
ovim stvarima.
ovim stvarima.
11:40
The first one has been dubbed "lawfare,"
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Prvi je nazvan "zakonovanje",
11:44
for want of a better word.
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u nedostatku bolje reči.
11:47
When we originally looked at bringing civil actions against terrorists,
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Kad smo prvo razmišljali
o građanskim parnicama protiv terorista,
o građanskim parnicama protiv terorista,
11:51
everyone thought we were a bit mad and mavericks
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svi su mislili da smo pomalo ludi
ili drogirani.
ili drogirani.
11:53
and crackpots. Now it's got a title. Everyone's doing it.
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To sad ima naziv. Svi to rade.
11:57
There's a bomb, people start suing.
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Postoji bomba, ljudi počnu da tuže.
11:59
But one of the first early cases on this was the Omagh Bombing.
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Ali jedan od ranih slučajeva ovoga
je bila eksplozija u Omagu.
je bila eksplozija u Omagu.
12:02
A civil action was brought from 1998.
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Građanska parnica je doneta 1998.
12:06
In Omagh, bomb went off, Real IRA,
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U Omagu je Prava IRA
aktivirala bombu
aktivirala bombu
12:09
middle of a peace process.
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u sred mirovnog procesa.
12:12
That meant that the culprits couldn't really be prosecuted
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To je značilo da počinitelji
ne mogu da se gone,
ne mogu da se gone,
12:16
for lots of reasons, mostly to do with the peace process
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iz mnogo razloga, uglavnom zbog
mirovnog procesa
mirovnog procesa
12:19
and what was going on, the greater good.
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2217
i onoga što se dešavalo,
zbog opšteg dobra.
zbog opšteg dobra.
12:21
It also meant, then, if you can imagine this,
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To je takođe značilo,
ako možete da zamislite,
ako možete da zamislite,
12:24
that the people who bombed your children
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da su ljudi koji su bacili bombu
na vašu decu
na vašu decu
12:26
and your husbands were walking around the supermarket
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5357
i vaše muževe, šetali supermarketom
12:31
that you lived in.
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u kom vi živite.
12:33
Some of those victims said enough is enough.
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Neke od žrtava su rekle da je dosta.
12:37
We brought a private action, and thank God, 10 years later,
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Pokrenuli smo privatnu parnicu,
i hvala bogu, 10 godina kasnije,
i hvala bogu, 10 godina kasnije,
12:40
we actually won it. There is a slight appeal on
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dobili smo je.
U toku je mala žalba,
U toku je mala žalba,
12:43
at the moment so I have to be a bit careful,
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1815
pa moram da budem oprezan,
12:45
but I'm fairly confident.
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ali prilično sam siguran.
12:47
Why was it effective?
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Zašto je bilo učinkovito?
12:48
It was effective not just because justice was seen to be done
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Ne samo zato što je učinjena pravda
12:51
where there was a huge void.
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tamo gde je bila velika praznina.
12:53
It was because the Real IRA and other terrorist groups,
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Nego i zato što je snaga Prave IRA
i drugih terorističkih grupa
i drugih terorističkih grupa
12:57
their whole strength is from the fact that they are
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u činjenici da su gubitnici.
12:59
an underdog. When we put the victims as the underdog
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Kada smo žrtve predstavili
kao gubitnike, obrnuli situaciju,
kao gubitnike, obrnuli situaciju,
13:04
and flipped it, they didn't know what to do.
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nisu znali šta da rade.
13:07
They were embarrassed. Their recruitment went down.
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Bili su osramoćeni.
Regrutacija im je opala.
Regrutacija im je opala.
13:12
The bombs actually stopped -- fact -- because of this action.
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Bombe su prestale zbog ove akcije,
to je činjenica.
to je činjenica.
13:16
We became, or those victims became, more importantly,
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Postali smo, žrtve su postale,
što je važnije,
što je važnije,
13:20
a ghost that haunted the terrorist organization.
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duh koji je pohodio
terorističku organizaciju.
terorističku organizaciju.
13:24
There's other examples. We have a case called Almog
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Ima još primera.
Imamo slučaj Almog,
Imamo slučaj Almog,
13:26
which is to do with a bank that was,
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što ima veze sa bankom koja je,
13:31
allegedly, from our point of view,
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3006
navodno, iz naše perspektive,
13:34
giving rewards to suicide bombers.
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nagrađivala bombaše samoubice.
13:38
Just by bringing the very action,
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Sprovođenjem akcije,
13:41
that bank has stopped doing it, and indeed,
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banka je prestala sa tim i zaista,
13:43
the powers that be around the world, which for real politic
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moćnici širom sveta,
koji zbog političkih razloga
koji zbog političkih razloga
13:45
reasons before, couldn't actually deal with this issue,
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ranije nisu mogli da se bave
ovim problemom,
ovim problemom,
13:49
because there was lots of competing interests,
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jer je bilo mnogo sukobljenih interesa,
13:50
have actually closed down those loopholes in the banking system.
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zatvorili su te rupe
u bankarskom sistemu.
u bankarskom sistemu.
13:53
There's another case called the McDonald case,
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Postoji još jedan slučaj,
Mekdonald slučaj,
Mekdonald slučaj,
13:56
where some victims of Semtex, of the Provisional IRA bombings,
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gde su neke od žrtava Semteksa,
napada privremene IRA-e
napada privremene IRA-e
14:00
which were supplied by Gaddafi, sued,
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6619
koje je pomogao Gadafi,
tužile,
tužile,
14:07
and that action has led to amazing things for new Libya.
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4937
i ta akcija je dovela do izuzetnih stvari
za novu Libiju.
za novu Libiju.
14:12
New Libya has been compassionate towards those victims,
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Nova Libija je saosećala
sa tim žrtvama
sa tim žrtvama
14:15
and started taking it -- so it started a whole new dialogue there.
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što je započelo
potpuno nov dijalog tamo.
potpuno nov dijalog tamo.
14:18
But the problem is, we need more and more support
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Problem je što nam je potrebno
sve više podrške
sve više podrške
14:23
for these ideas and cases.
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za ove ideje i slučajeve.
14:26
Civil affairs and civil society initiatives.
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4426
Inicijative civilnog društva
i mirovnih snaga.
i mirovnih snaga.
14:30
A good one is in Somalia. There's a war on piracy.
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Dobar primer je Somalija.
Tamo je u toku rat protiv pirata.
Tamo je u toku rat protiv pirata.
14:33
If anyone thinks you can have a war on piracy
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Ako mislite da taj rat možete voditi
kao rat protiv terorizma
kao rat protiv terorizma
14:34
like a war on terrorism and beat it, you're wrong.
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i dobiti ga, varate se.
14:37
What we're trying to do there is turn pirates to fisherman.
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2987
Mi pokušavamo da pirate
preobratimo u ribolovce.
preobratimo u ribolovce.
14:40
They used to be fisherman, of course,
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2224
Oni su, naravno, to i bili,
14:42
but we stole their fish and dumped a load of toxic waste
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ali mi smo im ukrali ribu
i bacili gomilu otrovnog otpada
i bacili gomilu otrovnog otpada
14:45
in their water, so what we're trying to do is create
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3295
u njihove vode, pa pokušavamo
da stvorimo
da stvorimo
14:49
security and employment by bringing a coastguard
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2486
sigurnost i zaposlenost, dovodeći
obalsku stražu
obalsku stražu
14:51
along with the fisheries industry, and I can guarantee you,
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zajedno sa ribolovnom industrijom,
i garantujem vam,
i garantujem vam,
14:54
as that builds, al Shabaab and such likes will not have
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dok se to dešava, al Šabab i slični
14:57
the poverty and injustice any longer to prey on those people.
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neće moći siromaštvom i nepravdom
da privlače ljude.
da privlače ljude.
15:01
These initiatives cost less than a missile,
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3875
Ove inicijative koštaju
manje od projektila
manje od projektila
15:05
and certainly less than any soldier's life,
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2967
i sigurno manje od života
jednog vojnika,
jednog vojnika,
15:08
but more importantly, it takes the war to their homelands,
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2855
ali sto je važnije,
prenosi rat na njihovu teritoriju,
prenosi rat na njihovu teritoriju,
15:11
and not onto our shore,
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2298
a ne na našu,
15:13
and we're looking at the causes.
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a mi tražimo uzroke.
15:15
The last one I wanted to talk about was dialogue.
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3449
Poslednje o čemu sam želeo da govorim
je dijalog.
je dijalog.
15:18
The advantages of dialogue are obvious.
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2806
Njegove prednosti su očigledne.
15:21
It self-educates both sides, enables a better understanding,
265
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4302
Edukuje obe strane, omogućava
bolje razumevanje,
bolje razumevanje,
15:25
reveals the strengths and weaknesses,
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2222
otkriva snage i slabosti,
15:27
and yes, like some of the speakers before,
267
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2601
i da, kao i neki prethodni govornici,
15:30
the shared vulnerability does lead to trust, and
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3889
podeljena osetljivost vodi poverenju
15:34
it does then become, that process, part of normalization.
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2905
i taj proces onda postaje
deo normalizacije.
deo normalizacije.
15:37
But it's not an easy road. After the bomb,
270
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4673
Ali to nije jednostavan put.
Posle bombe,
Posle bombe,
15:41
the victims are not into this.
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3129
žrtvama nije do ovoga.
15:45
There's practical problems.
272
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1894
Postoje praktični problemi.
15:46
It's politically risky for the protagonists
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2896
Politički je rizično za protagoniste
15:49
and for the interlocutors. On one occasion
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2735
i učesnike u dijalogu.
15:52
I was doing it, every time I did a point that they didn't like,
275
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2441
Jednom prilikom, kad bih istakao
nešto što im se nije dopalo,
nešto što im se nije dopalo,
15:55
they actually threw stones at me,
276
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1861
stvarno su me gađali kamenjem,
15:56
and when I did a point they liked,
277
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1987
a kada im se nešto
što sam rekao dopalo,
što sam rekao dopalo,
15:58
they starting shooting in the air, equally not great. (Laughter)
278
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4595
počeli bi da pucaju u vazduh,
što takođe nije bilo sjajno. (Smeh)
što takođe nije bilo sjajno. (Smeh)
16:03
Whatever the point, it gets to the heart of the problem,
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3202
Šta god da je u pitanju,
pogađa srce problema,
pogađa srce problema,
16:06
you're doing it, you're talking to them.
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2116
vi to radite, pričate sa njima.
16:08
Now, I just want to end with saying, if we follow reason,
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Želim da završim mišlju da,
ako pratimo razum,
ako pratimo razum,
16:12
we realize that I think we'd all say that we want to
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5362
mislim da bismo svi rekli
da želimo
da želimo
16:17
have a perception of terrorism which is not just a pure
283
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2682
da imamo percepciju o terorizmu
16:20
military perception of it.
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3749
koja nije samo vojna.
16:24
We need to foster more
285
968446
2457
Moramo da stvorimo
16:26
modern and asymmetrical responses to it.
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modernije i asimetrične odgovore
na terorizam.
na terorizam.
16:29
This isn't about being soft on terrorism.
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Ne radi se o tome da budemo
blagi prema terorizmu.
blagi prema terorizmu.
16:32
It's about fighting them on contemporary battlefields.
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Nego o tome da se borimo
na savremenim bojnim poljima.
na savremenim bojnim poljima.
16:35
We must foster innovation, as I've said.
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Kao što sam rekao,
moramo da podstičemo inovacije.
moramo da podstičemo inovacije.
16:38
Governments are receptive. It won't come from those dusty corridors.
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Vlade su prihvatajuće
i to od njih neće doći.
i to od njih neće doći.
16:42
The private sector has a role.
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Privatni sektor ima ulogu.
16:44
The role we could do right now is going away
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Ono što odmah možemo da uradimo
je da odemo
je da odemo
16:47
and looking at how we can support victims around the world
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i vidimo kako da podržimo
žrtve širom sveta
žrtve širom sveta
16:51
to bring initiatives.
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da započnu inicijative.
16:52
If I was to leave you with some big questions here which
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Ako bih želeo da vas ostavim
sa nekim velikim pitanjima
sa nekim velikim pitanjima
16:55
may change one's perception to it, and who knows what
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koja mogu promeniti shvatanje,
a ko zna kakve
a ko zna kakve
16:58
thoughts and responses will come out of it,
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misli i odgovori će proizaći iz toga,
17:01
but did myself and my terrorist group actually need
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da li je bilo potrebno da vas ja
17:05
to blow you up to make our point?
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i moja teroristička grupa raznesemo,
da bismo dokazali poentu?
da bismo dokazali poentu?
17:08
We have to ask ourselves these questions, however unpalatable.
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Moramo sebi postaviti ova pitanja,
koliko god da su neprijatna.
koliko god da su neprijatna.
17:12
Have we been ignoring an injustice or a humanitarian
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Da li negde u svetu ignorišemo
17:16
struggle somewhere in the world?
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nepravdu ili humanitarnu borbu?
17:18
What if, actually, engagement on poverty and injustice
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Šta je ako je, u stvari,
hvatanje u koštac sa siromaštvom
hvatanje u koštac sa siromaštvom
17:21
is exactly what the terrorists wanted us to do?
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i nepravdom upravo ono što
teroristi žele da radimo?
teroristi žele da radimo?
17:23
What if the bombs are just simply wake-up calls for us?
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Šta ako su bombe
poziv da se probudimo?
poziv da se probudimo?
17:26
What happens if that bomb went off
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Šta se dešava ako je
ta bomba eksplodirala
ta bomba eksplodirala
17:30
because we didn't have any thoughts and things in place
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jer nemamo nikakve misli ili procedure
17:33
to allow dialogue to deal with these things and interaction?
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da dozvolimo dijalog koji se bavi
ovim stvarima i interakcijom?
ovim stvarima i interakcijom?
17:38
What is definitely uncontroversial
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Ono što je nekontroverzno je,
17:41
is that, as I've said, we've got to stop being reactive,
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kao što sam rekao, moramo da
prestanemo da budemo reaktivni
prestanemo da budemo reaktivni
17:43
and more proactive, and I just want to leave you
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a postanemo proaktivni,
i želim da vas ostavim
i želim da vas ostavim
17:46
with one idea, which is that
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sa jednom idejom,
a to je
a to je
17:50
it's a provocative question for you to think about,
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da razmišljate o jednom
provokativnom pitanju,
provokativnom pitanju,
17:53
and the answer will require sympathy with the devil.
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a odgovor će zahtevati
udruživanje sa đavolom.
udruživanje sa đavolom.
17:57
It's a question that's been tackled by many great thinkers
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O tom pitanju mislili su mnogi
veliki mislioci i pisci:
veliki mislioci i pisci:
18:00
and writers: What if society actually needs crisis to change?
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šta ako je društvu potrebna kriza,
da bi se promenilo?
da bi se promenilo?
18:05
What if society actually needs terrorism
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Šta ako mu je potreban terorizam
18:09
to change and adapt for the better?
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da bi se promenilo
i prilagodilo boljem?
i prilagodilo boljem?
18:10
It's those Bulgakov themes, it's that picture of Jesus
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To su one bulgakovljevske teme,
ona slika Isusa
ona slika Isusa
18:15
and the Devil hand in hand in Gethsemane
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i Đavola kako ruku pod ruku
u getsemanskom vrtu
u getsemanskom vrtu
18:18
walking into the moonlight.
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šetaju po mesečini.
18:20
What it would mean is that humans,
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To bi značilo da svi ljudi,
18:23
in order to survive in development,
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da bi preživeli razvoj,
18:26
quite Darwinian spirit here,
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u darvinovskom duhu,
18:28
inherently must dance with the devil.
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u suštini moraju
da zaigraju sa đavolom.
da zaigraju sa đavolom.
18:32
A lot of people say that communism was defeated
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Mnogi ljudi kažu da su komunizam
18:37
by the Rolling Stones. It's a good theory.
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pobedili Roling Stonsi.
Dobra teorija.
Dobra teorija.
18:41
Maybe the Rolling Stones has a place in this.
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Možda imaju ulogu i ovde.
18:43
Thank you.
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Hvala vam.
18:46
(Music) (Applause)
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(Muzika) (Aplauz)
18:55
Bruno Giussani: Thank you. (Applause)
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Bruno Đuzani: Hvala vam.
(Aplauz)
(Aplauz)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Jason McCue - LawyerJason McCue litigates against terrorists, dictators and others who seem above the law, using the legal and judicial system in innovative ways.
Why you should listen
Jason McCue uses the legal system of the UK (and increasingly the world) to fight for human rights. In 2009, he won a landmark civil case at the high court in Belfast that resulted in a settlement for victims of the 1998 Omagh bombing by the Real IRA -- after attempts to prosecute the group in criminal courts had failed. It was a bold legal strategy now being copied for other victims, such as those of Libyan-supported terrorism and of the attacks in London and Mumbai. In September 2011 he and his firm launched another strategy for prosecuting Alexander Lukashenko, the dictator of Belarus, on counts of torture and hostage-taking: creating a "prosecution kit" to be sent to courts around the world. Wherever Lukashenko travels, he now faces the prospect of prosecution.
McCue is also a partner, with his wife, TV star Mariella Frostrup, of the GREAT Initiative: the Gender Rights and Equality Action Trust.
Jason McCue | Speaker | TED.com