TEDGlobal 2012
Ivan Krastev: Can democracy exist without trust?
Ivan Krastev: Da li demokratija može da postoji bez poverenja?
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Pet velikih revolucija je oblikovalo političku kulturu tokom poslednjih 50 godina, kaže teoretičar Ivan Krastev. Pokazuje nam kako svaki korak napred - od kulturne revolucije '60-ih do poslednjih otkrića u neuronauci - u isto vreme ruši poverenje u demokratska sredstva. Kako on kaže: "Ono što je bilo dobro, u isto vreme je bilo loše." Može li demokratija da preživi?
Ivan Krastev - Public intellectual
From his home base in Bulgaria, Ivan Krastev thinks about democracy -- and how to reframe it. Full bio
From his home base in Bulgaria, Ivan Krastev thinks about democracy -- and how to reframe it. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:16
I'm afraid I'm one of those speakers
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Bojim se da sam jedan od onih govornika
00:19
you hope you're not going to meet at TED.
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za koje se nadate da nećete susresti na TED-u.
00:22
First, I don't have a mobile,
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Kao prvo, nemam mobilni telefon,
00:23
so I'm on the safe side.
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tako da sam siguran po tom pitanju.
00:25
Secondly, a political theorist
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Drugo, politički teoretičar
00:27
who's going to talk about the crisis of democracy
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koji namerava da govori o krizi demokratije
00:30
is probably not the most exciting topic you can think about.
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verovatno i nije najzanimljivija tema
koju možete zamisliti.
koju možete zamisliti.
00:34
And plus, I'm not going to give you any answers.
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Pored toga, neću vam dati nikakve odgovore.
00:36
I'm much more trying to add to some of the questions we're talking about.
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Više ću pokušati da dodam neka pitanja
o kojima ćemo razgovarati.
o kojima ćemo razgovarati.
00:40
And one of the things that I want to question
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Jedna od stvari koju želim da preispitam
00:42
is this very popular hope these days
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je ova veoma popularna nada
današnjeg vremena
današnjeg vremena
00:45
that transparency and openness
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da transparentnost i otvorenost
00:47
can restore the trust in democratic institutions.
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mogu vratiti poverenje
u demokratske institucije.
u demokratske institucije.
00:51
There is one more reason for you to be suspicious about me.
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Ima još jedan razlog zbog kog treba
da ste sumnjičavi u vezi sa mnom.
da ste sumnjičavi u vezi sa mnom.
00:55
You people, the Church of TED, are a very optimistic community.
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Vi ste, kao Crkva TED-a,
veoma optimistična zajednica.
veoma optimistična zajednica.
00:59
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
01:01
Basically you believe in complexity, but not in ambiguity.
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U suštini, verujete u složenost,
ali ne u dvosmislenost.
ali ne u dvosmislenost.
01:06
As you have been told, I'm Bulgarian.
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Kao što vam je rečeno, ja sam Bugarin.
01:09
And according to the surveys,
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A prema nekim istraživanjima,
01:10
we are marked the most pessimistic people in the world.
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mi Bugari smo najpesimističniji narod na svetu.
01:14
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
01:16
The Economist magazine recently wrote an article
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U časopisu "Ekonomist"
nedavno je objavljen članak
nedavno je objavljen članak
01:19
covering one of the recent studies on happiness,
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o jednoj nedavno sprovedenoj studiji o sreći,
01:22
and the title was "The Happy, the Unhappy and the Bulgarians."
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a naslov je bio "Srećni, nesrećni i Bugari".
01:27
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
01:28
So now when you know what to expect,
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Sada kada znate šta da očekujete,
01:32
let's give you the story.
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hajde da krenem sa pričom.
01:34
And this is a rainy election day in a small country --
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Izborni je dan, uz to kišovit,
u jednoj maloj zemlji -
u jednoj maloj zemlji -
01:39
that can be my country, but could be also your country.
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koja bi mogla biti moja zemlja, ali i vaša.
01:42
And because of the rain until four o'clock in the afternoon,
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I upravo zbog kiše,
sve do četiri sata posle podne
sve do četiri sata posle podne
01:46
nobody went to the polling stations.
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niko se nije pojavio na glasačkim mestima.
01:48
But then the rain stopped,
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Zatim, kiša je prestala i
01:50
people went to vote.
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ljudi su otišli da glasaju.
01:52
And when the votes had been counted,
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Kada su glasovi prebrojani,
01:56
three-fourths of the people have voted with a blank ballot.
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tri četvrtine glasača
se opredelilo za prazne listiće.
se opredelilo za prazne listiće.
02:03
The government and the opposition,
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I vlada i opozicija
02:05
they have been simply paralyzed.
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su jednostavno bili paralizovani.
02:08
Because you know what to do about the protests.
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Zna se šta treba uraditi u vezi sa protestima.
02:10
You know who to arrest, who to negotiate with.
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Znate koga da uhapsite,
a sa kim da pregovarate.
a sa kim da pregovarate.
02:12
But what to do about people who are voting with a blank ballot?
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Ali šta učiniti sa ljudima
koji su glasali praznim listićem?
koji su glasali praznim listićem?
02:18
So the government decided to have the elections once again.
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Zbog toga je vlada odlučila
da ponovo raspiše izbore.
da ponovo raspiše izbore.
02:22
And this time even a greater number,
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Ovoga puta je čak veći broj,
02:24
83 percent of the people, voted with blank ballots.
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83 posto glasača,
glasao praznim listićima.
glasao praznim listićima.
02:30
Basically they went to the ballot boxes
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Jednostavno su otišli na glasačka mesta
02:32
to tell that they have nobody to vote for.
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kako bi rekli da nemaju za koga da glasaju.
02:35
This is the opening of a beautiful novel by Jose Saramago
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Ovo je uvod predivnog romana Žozea Saramaga
02:41
called "Seeing."
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"Viđenje".
02:42
But in my view it very well captures
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Meni se čini da taj uvod izvrsno opisuje
02:44
part of the problem that we have with democracy in Europe these days.
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deo problema demokratije u Evropi
sa kojim se suočavamo danas.
sa kojim se suočavamo danas.
02:49
On one level nobody's questioning
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S jedne strane, niko ne dovodi u pitanje
02:51
that democracy is the best form of government.
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da je demokratija najbolji vid vladavine.
02:55
Democracy is the only game in town.
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Demokratija je jedini izbor.
02:58
The problem is that many people start to believe
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Problem je u tome što mnogi počinju da veruju
03:00
that it is not a game worth playing.
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da to i nije baš pravi izbor.
03:03
For the last 30 years, political scientists have observed
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Poslednjih trideset godina,
politikolozi su primetili
politikolozi su primetili
03:07
that there is a constant decline in electoral turnout,
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stalan pad izlaznosti na izborima
03:12
and the people who are least interested to vote
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i da su najmanje zainteresovani da glasaju
03:16
are the people whom you expect are going to gain most out of voting.
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oni ljudi za koje očekujete
da će dobiti najviše glasanjem.
da će dobiti najviše glasanjem.
03:20
I mean the unemployed, the under-privileged.
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Mislim na nezaposlene i siromašne.
03:24
And this is a major issue.
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To je suštinsko pitanje.
03:25
Because especially now with the economic crisis,
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Naročito sada sa ekonomskom krizom,
03:28
you can see that the trust in politics,
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možemo da vidimo da su poverenje u politiku
03:31
that the trust in democratic institutions,
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i poverenje u demokratske institucije,
03:33
was really destroyed.
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zaista uništeni.
03:35
According to the latest survey being done by the European Commission,
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Prema poslednjem istraživanju Evropske komisije,
03:39
89 percent of the citizens of Europe believe that there is a growing gap
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89 posto građana Evrope
veruje da je sve veći jaz
veruje da je sve veći jaz
03:44
between the opinion of the policy-makers and the opinion of the public.
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između mišljenja onih koji kreiraju politiku
i mišljenja javnosti.
i mišljenja javnosti.
03:50
Only 18 percent of Italians and 15 percent of Greeks
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Samo 18 posto Italijana i 15 posto Grka
03:54
believe that their vote matters.
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veruje da je njihov glas bitan.
03:57
Basically people start to understand that they can change governments,
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U suštini, ljudi počinju da shvataju
da mogu promeniti vlade,
da mogu promeniti vlade,
04:01
but they cannot change policies.
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ali ne mogu promeniti politiku.
04:04
And the question which I want to ask is the following:
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A pitanje koje želim da postavim je sledeće:
04:06
How did it happen that we are living in societies
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kako je moguće da živimo u društvima
04:10
which are much freer than ever before --
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koja su slobodnija nego ikada pre -
04:13
we have more rights, we can travel easier,
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imamo više prava, možemo lakše putovati,
04:15
we have access to more information --
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imamo pristup većem broju informacija -
04:18
at the same time that trust in our democratic institutions
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i u isto vreme imamo potpuno srozavanje
04:21
basically has collapsed?
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poverenja u naše demokratske institucije?
04:24
So basically I want to ask:
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Želim da pitam sledeće:
04:25
What went right and what went wrong in these 50 years
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šta je bilo dobro, a šta loše u ovih 50 godina
04:30
when we talk about democracy?
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kada govorimo o demokratiji?
04:32
And I'll start with what went right.
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Počeću sa onim što je dobro.
04:36
And the first thing that went right was, of course,
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Prva stvar koja je bila dobra su, naravno,
04:39
these five revolutions which, in my view,
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ovih pet revolucija koje su, po mom viđenju,
04:41
very much changed the way we're living and deepened our democratic experience.
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značajno promenile način na koji živimo
i produbile naše demokratsko iskustvo.
i produbile naše demokratsko iskustvo.
04:46
And the first was the cultural and social revolution of 1968 and 1970s,
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Prvo su bile kulturna i socijalna revolucija 1968.
i sedamdesetih,
i sedamdesetih,
04:51
which put the individual at the center of politics.
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koje su stavile pojedinca u središte politike.
04:54
It was the human rights moment.
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To je bilo vreme ljudskih prava.
04:56
Basically this was also a major outbreak, a culture of dissent,
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Takođe bio je to i ključni proboj,
kultura nezadovoljstva,
kultura nezadovoljstva,
05:00
a culture of basically non-conformism,
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kultura suštinskog nonkonformizma,
05:04
which was not known before.
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koja do tada nije bila poznata.
05:06
So I do believe that even things like that
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Verujem da su čak i stvari poput toga
05:09
are very much the children of '68 --
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u značajnoj meri deca '68. -
05:12
nevertheless that most of us had been even not born then.
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bez obzira što većina nas
u to vreme još nije ni bila rođena.
u to vreme još nije ni bila rođena.
05:16
But after that you have the market revolution of the 1980s.
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Nakon toga '80-ih smo imali tržišnu revoluciju.
05:19
And nevertheless that many people on the left try to hate it,
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Bez obzira što mnogi levičari
pokušavaju da je mrze,
pokušavaju da je mrze,
05:22
the truth is that it was very much the market revolution that sent the message:
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istina je da je upravo tržišna revolucija
bila ta koja je poslala sledeću poruku:
bila ta koja je poslala sledeću poruku:
05:27
"The government does not know better."
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"Vlada ne zna bolje".
05:29
And you have more choice-driven societies.
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Od tada imate društva vođena izborima.
05:31
And of course, you have 1989 -- the end of Communism, the end of the Cold War.
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I naravno, revolucija 1989. -
krah komunizma, kraj Hladnog rata.
krah komunizma, kraj Hladnog rata.
05:38
And it was the birth of the global world.
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Tu nastaje globalni svet.
05:40
And you have the Internet.
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Sada imamo internet.
05:42
And this is not the audience to which I'm going to preach
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Ovo nije publika kojoj bih želeo propovedati
05:45
to what extent the Internet empowered people.
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o tome u kolikoj je meri internet osposobio ljude.
05:48
It has changed the way we are communicating
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Promenio je način na koji komuniciramo
05:51
and basically we are viewing politics.
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i u suštini, na koji posmatramo politiku.
05:52
The very idea of political community totally has changed.
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Sama ideja političke zajednice
se potpuno izmenila.
se potpuno izmenila.
05:55
And I'm going to name one more revolution,
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Pomenuću još jednu revoluciju,
05:58
and this is the revolution in brain sciences,
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a to je revolucija u kognitivnoj nauci,
06:00
which totally changed the way
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koja je u potpunosti promenila način
06:01
we understand how people are making decisions.
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na koji shvatamo kako ljudi donose odluke.
06:05
So this is what went right.
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Znači, ovo su one stvari koje su dobre.
06:08
But if we're going to see what went wrong,
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Ali ako pogledamo šta je bilo loše,
06:10
we're going to end up with the same five revolutions.
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završićemo sa istih pet revolucija.
06:14
Because first you have the 1960s and 1970s,
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Najpre smo '60-ih i '70-ih imali
06:17
cultural and social revolution,
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kulturnu i socijalnu revoluciju,
06:19
which in a certain way destroyed the idea of a collective purpose.
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koje su na izvestan način
uništile ideju zajedničke svrhe.
uništile ideju zajedničke svrhe.
06:22
The very idea, all these collective nouns that we have been taught about --
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Sama ideja, sve ove zajedničke imenice
o kojima su nas učili -
o kojima su nas učili -
06:27
nation, class, family.
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nacija, klasa, porodica.
06:30
We start to like divorcing, if we're married at all.
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Razvod nam se dopao,
u slučaju da smo i bili venčani.
u slučaju da smo i bili venčani.
06:33
All this was very much under attack.
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Sve ovo je u velikoj meri bilo izloženo napadima.
06:36
And it is so difficult to engage people in politics
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Jako je teško uključiti ljude u politiku
06:40
when they believe that what really matters
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kada veruju da je ono što je zaista važno
06:43
is where they personally stand.
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zapravo njihovo lično mišljenje.
06:45
And you have the market revolution of the 1980s
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Imate tržišnu revoluciju tokom '80-ih
06:49
and the huge increase of inequality in societies.
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i ogroman rast socijalne nejednakosti.
06:55
Remember, until the 1970s,
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Setite se, sve do '70-ih,
06:57
the spread of democracy has always been accompanied
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širenje demokratije uvek je bilo propraćeno
07:01
by the decline of inequality.
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smanjenjem neravnopravnosti.
07:04
The more democratic our societies have been,
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Što bi društva postajala demokratskija,
07:06
the more equal they have been becoming.
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sve više je bilo jednakosti.
07:10
Now we have the reverse tendency.
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Sada imamo obrnutu tendenciju.
07:12
The spread of democracy now is very much accompanied
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Širenje demokratije je sada
u velikoj meri propraćeno
u velikoj meri propraćeno
07:15
by the increase in inequality.
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porastom nejednakosti.
07:17
And I find this very much disturbing
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Smatram da je to vrlo zabrinjavajuće
07:20
when we're talking about what's going on right and wrong
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kada govorimo o tome šta je dobro, a šta loše
07:24
with democracy these days.
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u vezi sa demokratijom danas.
07:26
And if you go to 1989 --
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A ako se vratimo na 1989. -
07:28
something that basically you don't expect that anybody's going to criticize --
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nešto što u principu ne očekujete
da bi bilo ko kritikovao -
da bi bilo ko kritikovao -
07:32
but many are going to tell you, "Listen, it was the end of the Cold War
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mnogi će vam reći:
"Slušaj, upravo je kraj Hladnog rata
"Slušaj, upravo je kraj Hladnog rata
07:36
that tore the social contract between the elites and the people in Western Europe."
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uništio socijalni sporazum između elita
i običnih ljudi u Zapadnoj Evropi."
i običnih ljudi u Zapadnoj Evropi."
07:41
When the Soviet Union was still there,
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Dok je još postojao Sovjetski Savez,
07:43
the rich and the powerful, they needed the people,
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bogatima i moćnima je bio potreban narod,
07:46
because they feared them.
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jer su ga se plašili.
07:48
Now the elites basically have been liberated.
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Elite su sada u principu oslobođene.
07:52
They're very mobile. You cannot tax them.
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Dosta su mobilne.
Ne možete im nametnuti poreze.
Ne možete im nametnuti poreze.
07:54
And basically they don't fear the people.
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One se zapravo ne plaše naroda.
07:56
So as a result of it, you have this very strange situation
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Kao rezultat toga, imamo dosta neobičnu situaciju
07:59
in which the elites basically got out of the control of the voters.
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da su se elite otele kontroli glasača.
08:04
So this is not by accident
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Nije slučajnost
08:05
that the voters are not interested to vote anymore.
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da glasači više nisu zainteresovani da glasaju.
08:08
And when we talk about the Internet,
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Kada pričamo o internetu,
08:10
yes, it's true, the Internet connected all of us,
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istina je da nas internet sve povezuje,
08:13
but we also know that the Internet created these echo chambers and political ghettos
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ali takođe moramo znati da je internet stvorio
i ove odjeke i političke getoe
i ove odjeke i političke getoe
08:20
in which for all your life you can stay with the political community you belong to.
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u kojima možete ostati do kraja života
sa političkom zajednicom kojoj pripadate.
sa političkom zajednicom kojoj pripadate.
08:25
And it's becoming more and more difficult
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Sve je teže
08:27
to understand the people who are not like you.
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razumeti one koji nisu poput vas.
08:29
I know that many people here
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Znam da mnogi među vama
08:31
have been splendidly speaking about the digital world and the possibility for cooperation,
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fantastično govore o digitalnom svetu
i mogućnostima saradnje,
i mogućnostima saradnje,
08:36
but [have you] seen what the digital world has done to American politics these days?
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ali vidite li šta je taj digitalni svet
danas učinio američkoj politici?
danas učinio američkoj politici?
08:40
This is also partly a result of the Internet revolution.
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To je delimično rezultat internet revolucije.
08:44
This is the other side of the things that we like.
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To je druga strana onoga što nam se sviđa.
08:47
And when you go to the brain sciences,
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A kada govorimo o kognitivnoj nauci,
08:49
what political consultants learned from the brain scientists
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ono što su politički savetnici
naučili od kognitivnih naučnika
naučili od kognitivnih naučnika
08:53
is don't talk to me about ideas anymore,
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je da više ne govore o idejama,
08:56
don't talk to me about policy programs.
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da ne govore o političkim programima.
08:59
What really matters is basically to manipulate the emotions of the people.
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Ono što je zaista bitno je
da manipulišu osećanjima ljudi.
da manipulišu osećanjima ljudi.
09:04
And you have this very strongly
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To je toliko snažno prisutno da,
09:06
to the extent that, even if you see when we talk about revolutions these days,
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dok u današnje vreme govorimo o revolucijama,
09:11
these revolutions are not named anymore around ideologies or ideas.
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te revolucije više ne nazivamo
po ideologijama ili idejama.
po ideologijama ili idejama.
09:17
Before, revolutions used to have ideological names.
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Revolucije su nekada imale ideološka imena.
09:19
They could be communist, they could be liberal,
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Mogle su da budu komunističke, liberalne,
09:21
they could be fascist or Islamic.
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mogle su da budu fašističke ili islamske.
09:23
Now the revolutions are called under the medium which is most used.
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Sada se revolucije nazivaju
prema mediju koji se najviše koristi.
prema mediju koji se najviše koristi.
09:27
You have Facebook revolutions, Twitter revolutions.
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Tako imamo Fejsbuk revoluciju, Tviter revoluciju.
09:30
The content doesn't matter anymore, the problem is the media.
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Sadržaj više nije bitan, problem je u mediju.
09:35
I'm saying this because one of my major points
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Ovo kažem jer je jedna od glavnih tačaka to
09:37
is what went right is also what went wrong.
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da ono što je dobro, istovremeno je i loše.
09:42
And when we're now trying to see how we can change the situation,
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Sada kada pokušavamo da shvatimo
kako da promenimo situaciju,
kako da promenimo situaciju,
09:46
when basically we're trying to see what can be done about democracy,
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šta da uradimo sa demokratijom,
09:49
we should keep this ambiguity in mind.
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treba da imamo na umu ovu dvoznačnost.
09:51
Because probably some of the things that we love most
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Verovatno će neke stvari koje najviše volimo
09:54
are going to be also the things that can hurt us most.
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istovremeno biti i stvari
koje nas najviše mogu povrediti.
koje nas najviše mogu povrediti.
09:58
These days it's very popular to believe
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U današnje vreme je jako popularno verovanje
10:01
that this push for transparency,
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da ovaj poriv za transparentnošću,
10:03
this kind of a combination between active citizens, new technologies
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ova kombinacija aktivnih građana,
novih tehnologija
novih tehnologija
10:09
and much more transparency-friendly legislation
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i transparentno-prijateljskog zakonodavstva
10:13
can restore trust in politics.
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može da vrati poverenje u politiku.
10:16
You believe that when you have these new technologies and people who are ready to use this,
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Verujete da je, kada imate sve ove nove tehnologije
i ljude koji su spremni da ih koriste,
i ljude koji su spremni da ih koriste,
10:20
it can make it much more difficult for the governments to lie,
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vladama mnogo teže da lažu,
10:24
it's going to be more difficult for them to steal
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da će im biti teže da kradu
10:26
and probably even going to be more difficult for them to kill.
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i da će im verovatno biti još teže da ubiju.
10:30
This is probably true.
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To je verovatno tačno.
10:32
But I do believe that we should be also very clear
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Ali verujem da takođe moramo da budemo jasni
10:35
that now when we put the transparency at the center of politics
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da sada kada stavimo transparentnost
u samo središte politike,
u samo središte politike,
10:40
where the message is, "It's transparency, stupid."
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tu je poruka da je transparentnost glupa.
10:44
Transparency is not about restoring trust in institutions.
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Transparentnost ne znači
vraćanje poverenja u institucije.
vraćanje poverenja u institucije.
10:47
Transparency is politics' management of mistrust.
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Transparentnost je upravljanje
nepoverenjem u politici.
nepoverenjem u politici.
10:52
We are assuming that our societies are going to be based on mistrust.
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Podrazumevamo da će naša društva
biti zasnovana na nepoverenju.
biti zasnovana na nepoverenju.
10:57
And by the way, mistrust was always very important for democracy.
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Nepoverenje je oduvek bilo
jako bitno za demokratiju.
jako bitno za demokratiju.
10:59
This is why you have checks and balances.
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Zbog toga imate stalne provere.
11:02
This is why basically you have all this creative mistrust
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Zbog toga i imate ovo kreativno nepoverenje
11:06
between the representatives and those whom they represent.
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između predstavnika i onih koje oni predstavljaju.
11:09
But when politics is only management of mistrust,
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Međutim, kada se politika svede
samo na upravljanje nepoverenjem,
samo na upravljanje nepoverenjem,
11:14
then -- I'm very glad that "1984" has been mentioned --
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onda - a veoma mi je drago da je pomenuta "1984." -
11:17
now we're going to have "1984" in reverse.
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znači da ćemo sada imati "1984."
obrnutim redosledom.
obrnutim redosledom.
11:20
It's not going to be the Big Brother watching you,
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To neće biti Veliki brat koji nas posmatra,
11:23
it's going to be we being the Big Brother
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već ćemo mi biti Veliki brat
11:25
watching the political class.
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koji posmatra političku klasu.
11:27
But is this the idea of a free society?
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Ali, da li je to ideja slobodnog društva?
11:30
For example, can you imagine
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Na primer, možete li da zamislite
11:32
that decent, civic, talented people are going to run for office
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da će se pristojni, građanski orijentisani,
talentovani ljudi kandidovati za pozicije
talentovani ljudi kandidovati za pozicije
11:38
if they really do believe
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ukoliko zaista veruju
11:40
that politics is also about managing mistrust?
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da je politika takođe i upravljanje nepoverenjem?
11:44
Are you not afraid with all these technologies
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Zar se ne plašite da će sve ove tehnologije
11:47
that are going to track down
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koje će ući u trag
11:49
any statement the politicians are going to make on certain issues,
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svakoj izjavi političara o određenim pitanjima,
11:52
are you not afraid that this is going to be a very strong signal to politicians
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zar se ne plašite da će to biti izuzetno
snažan signal političarima
snažan signal političarima
11:56
to repeat their positions, even the very wrong positions,
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da ponavljaju svoje pozicije,
čak i one veoma pogrešne
čak i one veoma pogrešne
12:01
because consistency is going to be more important than common sense?
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jer će doslednost biti
mnogo važnija od zdravog razuma?
mnogo važnija od zdravog razuma?
12:05
And the Americans who are in the room,
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A vi Amerikanci koji ste sa nama danas,
12:06
are you not afraid that your presidents are going to govern
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zar se ne plašite da će vaši predsednici vladati
12:09
on the basis of what they said in the primary elections?
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na osnovu onoga što su izjavili
tokom primarnih izbora?
tokom primarnih izbora?
12:13
I find this extremely important,
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Smatram to izuzetno značajnim
12:15
because democracy is about people changing their views
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jer demokratija podrazumeva
da ljudi menjaju svoja mišljenja
da ljudi menjaju svoja mišljenja
12:19
based on rational arguments and discussions.
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na osnovu racionalnih argumenata i razgovora.
12:22
And we can lose this with the very noble idea
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Mogli bismo izgubiti ovu izuzetno plemenitu ideju
12:25
to keep people accountable
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zadržavanja odgovornosti
12:27
for showing the people that we're not going to tolerate
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radi pokazivanja netolerancije prema političarima
12:30
politicians the opportunism in politics.
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za oportunizam.
12:33
So for me this is extremely important.
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To je za mene izuzetno bitno.
12:35
And I do believe that when we're discussing politics these days,
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Verujem da kada danas razgovaramo o politici,
12:38
probably it makes sense
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verovatno ima smisla
12:41
to look also at this type of a story.
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pogledati i ovu vrstu priče.
12:44
But also don't forget, any unveiling is also veiling.
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Ali ne zaboravite da je svako otkrivanje
istovremeno i skrivanje.
istovremeno i skrivanje.
12:48
[Regardless of] how transparent our governments want to be,
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Bez obzira na to koliko
naše vlade žele da budu transparentne,
naše vlade žele da budu transparentne,
12:51
they're going to be selectively transparent.
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one će biti selektivno transparentne.
12:54
In a small country that could be my country,
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U maloj zemlji, koja bi lako mogla da bude moja zemlja,
12:56
but could be also your country,
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ali i vaša,
12:57
they took a decision -- it is a real case story --
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doneli su odluku - ovo je istinita priča -
12:59
that all of the governmental decisions,
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da će sve odluke vlade
13:02
discussions of the council of ministers,
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i sve rasprave Saveta ministara
13:05
were going to be published on the Internet
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biti objavljene na internetu
13:08
24 hours after the council discussions took place.
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24 časa nakon rasprave.
13:12
And the public was extremely all for it.
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Javnost je u ogromnom broju bila za to.
13:14
So I had the opportunity to talk to the prime minister,
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Tako sam imao priliku da razgovaram sa premijerom
13:17
why he made this decision.
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zbog čega je doneo takvu odluku.
13:18
He said, "Listen, this is the best way
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Rekao je: "Slušaj, ovo je najbolji način
13:20
to keep the mouths of my ministers closed.
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da začepim usta nekima od ministara
13:25
Because it's going to be very difficult for them to dissent
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jer će im biti jako teško da se usprotive
13:28
knowing that 24 hours after
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znajući da će 24 časa nakon toga
13:30
this is going to be on the public space,
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sve biti u javnosti,
13:32
and this is in a certain way going to be a political crisis."
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što bi zasigurno proizvelo političku krizu."
13:36
So when we talk about transparency,
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Tako da kada govorimo o transparentnosti,
13:37
when we talk about openness,
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kada govorimo o otvorenosti,
13:39
I really do believe that what we should keep in mind
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zaista smatram da ono što moramo imati na umu
13:41
is that what went right is what went wrong.
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je da je ono što je dobro, istovremeno i loše.
13:45
And this is Goethe, who is neither Bulgarian nor a political scientist,
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A ovo je rekao Gete,
koji nije bio ni Bugarin, niti politikolog,
koji nije bio ni Bugarin, niti politikolog,
13:49
some centuries ago he said,
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pre nekoliko vekova:
13:52
"There is a big shadow where there is much light."
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"Velika je sena tamo gde je dosta svetlosti."
13:55
Thank you very much.
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Hvala vam mnogo.
13:56
(Applause)
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(Aplauz)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Ivan Krastev - Public intellectualFrom his home base in Bulgaria, Ivan Krastev thinks about democracy -- and how to reframe it.
Why you should listen
Political scientist Ivan Krastev is watching the Euro crisis closely, fascinated by what it reveals about Europe's place in history: What does it mean for the democratic model? Will a fragmented Europe return to nationalist identity politics?
In his latest work, Krastev places recent events on a continuum of five revolutions over the past decades:
+ The socio-cultural revolution of the 1960s.
+ Market revolutions of the 1980s.
+ Central Europe in 1989 (which brought socio-cultural and market revolutions together).
+ The communications revolution.
+ And finally the revolution in neurosciences, which lays bare the irrationality and emotional manipulation in popular politics.
As a result of these five great changes, we've become extremely open and connected, while on the flipside cementing a mistrust of elites. Can democracy flourish when a mistrust of elites is a permanent feature?
Krastev is the chair of the Centre for Liberal Strategies, in Sofia, a research and analysis NGO.
Ivan Krastev | Speaker | TED.com