TED2002
Frank Gehry: A master architect asks, Now what?
弗兰克·盖瑞：“那又如何？”
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在与理查德·所罗·乌尔曼的天马星空又不乏娱乐性的对话中，建筑师弗兰克·盖瑞与TED的观众们分享 了如何变失败为力量，他最近的作品，以及这其中最重要的因素——“那又如何？”
Frank Gehry - Architect
A living legend, Frank Gehry has forged his own language of architecture, creating astonishing buildings all over the world, such as the Guggenheim in Bilbao, the Walt Disney Concert Hall in LA, and Manhattan's new IAC building. Full bio
A living legend, Frank Gehry has forged his own language of architecture, creating astonishing buildings all over the world, such as the Guggenheim in Bilbao, the Walt Disney Concert Hall in LA, and Manhattan's new IAC building. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
Frank Gehry: I listened to this scientist this morning.
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弗兰克·盖瑞：今天早上我听到一位科学家在和
00:14
Dr. Mullis was talking about his experiments,
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穆里斯博士说他的实验，
00:19
and I realized that I almost became a scientist.
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突然想到自己当年差点儿就成了科学家。
00:22
When I was 14 my parents bought me a chemistry set
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我十四岁的时候我父母给我买了一套化学仪器。
00:29
and I decided to make water.
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然后，我决定要合成水。
00:31
(Laughter)
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（笑）
00:40
So, I made a hydrogen generator and I made an oxygen generator,
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于是我做了一套氢气生成器，一套氧气生成器。
00:45
and I had the two pipes leading into a beaker
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我弄了两根管子，通进一只量杯，
00:47
and I threw a match in.
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然后，我扔了根火柴进去。
00:49
(Laughter)
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（笑♫）
00:51
And the glass -- luckily I turned around --
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然后玻璃——幸好我转过了身，
00:54
I had it all in my back
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全都扎在了我背上。
00:56
and I was about 15 feet away.
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大概十五尺左右的地方，
00:59
The wall was covered with ...
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墙上那是一个——
01:01
I had an explosion.
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我制造了一场爆炸。
01:03
Richard Saul Wurman: Really?
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理查德·所罗·乌尔曼：啊？真的？
01:04
FG: People on the street came and knocked on the door
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盖瑞：街上的人都聚过来敲门，
01:05
to see if I was okay.
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看看我有没有事儿。
01:07
RSW: ... huh. (Laughter)
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（笑）
01:14
I'd like to start
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乌尔曼：恩，我要重新开个头——
01:16
this session again.
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重新开始这个对话。
01:19
The gentleman to my left is the very famous, perhaps overly famous,
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我左边的这位先生就是非常著名的，可能有点儿名不副实的
01:24
Frank Gehry.
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弗兰克·盖瑞。
01:26
(Laughter)
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（笑）
01:27
(Applause)
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（鼓掌♫）
01:28
And Frank, you've come to a place in your life, which is astonishing.
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那么弗兰克，你已经攀登到了人生中不可思议的高度。
01:32
I mean it is astonishing for an artist, for an architect,
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我是说，对于一位艺术家——一位建筑师而言——
01:37
to become actually an icon and a legend in their own time.
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成为你所属的这一个时代的风向标，甚至传说。
01:39
I mean you have become, whether you can giggle at it
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我是说你成功了，就算你对这个事实窃笑，
01:42
because it's a funny ... you know, it's a strange thought,
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因为确实很好笑——你知道，这是很奇怪的想法。
01:45
but your building is an icon --
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但是你的建筑是标志性的。
01:47
you can draw a little picture of that building, it can be used in ads --
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你给那幢建筑画张小图，它就可以被用在广告里。
01:50
and you've had not rock star status, but celebrity status
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而且你拥有——非摇滚明星的地位，而是名人的地位，
01:55
in doing what you wanted to do for most of your life.
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可以在一生的大部分时间中自己想做的事情。
02:00
And I know the road was extremely difficult.
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我知道，这一路走来异常艰难。
02:05
And it didn't seem, at least, that your sell outs,
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而且你做出的种种牺牲，
02:09
whatever they were, were very big.
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无论何种牺牲，都是巨大的。
02:13
You kept moving ahead in a life where you're dependent
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致力于为他人服务的一生中，
02:19
on working for somebody.
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你不断前进，
02:22
But that's an interesting thing for a creative person.
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但对于一个富有创造力的人来说，这很有趣，
02:25
A lot of us work for people;
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许多这样的人都服务于他人，
02:27
we're in the hands of other people.
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我们的生活在他人的股掌之中。
02:29
And that's one of the great dilemmas -- we're in a creativity session --
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这是众多两难境地之一——我们身处一个创造的时代——
02:33
it's one of the great dilemmas in creativity:
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这是创造力面对的最大的困境之一。
02:35
how to do work that's big enough and not sell out.
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如何做到最大限度而又始终坚持自我，
02:39
And you've achieved that
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而你做到了。
02:41
and that makes your win doubly big, triply big.
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这给你带来了双赢——甚至多赢。
02:46
It's not quite a question but you can comment on it.
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这不是一个问题，但你可以谈谈你的看法。
02:47
It's a big issue.
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这很重要。
02:50
FG: Well, I've always just ...
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盖瑞：嗯，一直以来我只是——
02:52
I've never really gone out looking for work.
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我从来没有自己去找过工作，
02:57
I always waited for it to sort of hit me on the head.
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我是守株待兔类型的
03:00
And when I started out,
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刚开始的时候，
03:03
I thought that architecture was a service business
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我认为建筑业是门服务性生意，
03:06
and that you had to please the clients and stuff.
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你必须取悦雇主和你的团队。
03:09
And I realized when I'd come into the meetings
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我还意识到，我一走进会议室，
03:13
with these corrugated metal and chain link stuff,
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夹着那些打了褶的金属和链条什么的，
03:18
and people would just look at me
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人们只会看着我，
03:21
like I'd just landed from Mars.
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好像我刚从火星回来似的。
03:23
But I couldn't do anything else.
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但其他的我什么都做不了。
03:26
That was my response to the people in the time.
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那就是我对人们以及那个时代的回应。
03:29
And actually, it was responding to clients that I had
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事实上，那是我对我的雇主的回应。
03:33
who didn't have very much money, so they couldn't afford very much.
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他们并不太富有，所以也负担不起太好的材料。
03:36
I think it was circumstantial.
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我觉得那也是那个时候不得已而为之的。
03:38
Until I got to my house, where the client was my wife.
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知道我得弄自己的房子，而我老婆成了雇主。
03:43
We bought this tiny little bungalow in Santa Monica
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我们在圣塔莫尼卡买了间小平房，
03:46
and for like 50 grand I built a house around it.
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用大概5万美元在那儿造了间房子。
03:49
And a few people got excited about it.
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一些人对那间房子很激动。
03:53
I was visiting with an artist, Michael Heizer,
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我和一位艺术家，迈克尔·黑泽尔一起外出，
03:56
out in the desert near Las Vegas somewhere.
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在靠近拉斯维加斯的某个沙漠里。
03:59
He's building this huge concrete place.
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他当是正在那儿建一座巨大的混凝土建筑。
04:02
And it was late in the evening. We'd had a lot to drink.
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那天晚上有点晚了，我们还喝了不少酒。
04:05
We were standing out in the desert all alone and,
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就我俩，站在巨大的沙漠中间，他说——
04:08
thinking about my house, he said,
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想到我的房子——他说：
04:10
"Did it ever occur to you if you built stuff more permanent,
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“你有没有想过建些更加永恒的东西，
04:15
somewhere in 2000 years somebody's going to like it?"
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在未来2000年里会有人欣赏它的。”
04:20
(Laughter)
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（笑♫）
04:24
So, I thought, "Yeah, that's probably a good idea."
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所以我想——是啊，说不定是个好主意。
04:29
Luckily I started to get some clients that had a little more money,
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我很幸运，后来又了找到一些稍有余钱的雇主，
04:33
so the stuff was a little more permanent.
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所以我的作品能变得稍微“永恒”些了。
04:36
But I just found out the world ain't going to last that long,
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之后我又发现世界永远不会只为你持续那么会儿。
04:39
this guy was telling us the other day.
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于是又是这家伙，一天告诉我们，
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So where do we go now?
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现在我们该去哪儿呢？
04:44
Back to -- everything's so temporary.
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回到——一切都那么暂时，转眼即逝。
04:46
I don't see it the way you characterized it.
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我并不那么看这个世界。
04:52
For me, every day is a new thing.
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对我来说，每一天都是全新的，
04:56
I approach each project with a new insecurity,
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我都带着不安开始每一个新项目，
05:01
almost like the first project I ever did,
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对待每个项目都像对待我的第一个项目一样。
05:03
and I get the sweats,
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我付出汗水，
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I go in and start working, I'm not sure where I'm going --
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埋头工作，不知道结果会是怎样。
05:09
if I knew where I was going, I wouldn't do it.
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如果我对前方一切了然于心，那我就会停下。
05:12
When I can predict or plan it, I don't do it.
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如果我能预测或者计划一切，我就不会继续下去。
05:15
I discard it.
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我会把预测或者计划丢到一边去。
05:17
So I approach it with the same trepidation.
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所以我才能带着同样的不稳定感对待每一个项目。
05:20
Obviously, over time I have a lot more confidence
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不过，当然，我的信心随着时间累计着，
05:25
that it's going to be OK.
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所以一切都会变好。
05:28
I do run a kind of a business --
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我确实是在经营一本生意，
05:31
I've got 120 people
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我有120人的团队，
05:33
and you've got to pay them,
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要付给每个人薪水，
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so there's a lot of responsibility involved --
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这其中包含了很大责任。
05:37
but the actual work on the project is with,
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在做项目的过程中的现实的工作
05:41
I think, a healthy insecurity.
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我认为是安全问题。
05:43
And like the playwright said the other day -- I could relate to him:
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正如那位剧作家说的——我可以引用他的话——
05:50
you're not sure.
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你总是不能确定。
05:52
When Bilbao was finished and I looked at it,
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当毕尔巴鄂的工程（古根海姆美术馆）结束的时候，我看着它，
05:56
I saw all the mistakes, I saw ...
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我看着所有的错误，
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They weren't mistakes;
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它们不能算是错误。
06:00
I saw everything that I would have changed
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我看着我曾经可以改变的一切，
06:02
and I was embarrassed by it.
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自己觉得有点囧。
06:05
I felt an embarrassment -- "How could I have done that?
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我觉得局促不安——怎么弄成那样了？
06:08
How could I have made shapes like that or done stuff like that?"
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我怎么把这里整成那样的形状或者是怎么把那些地方弄成那个死样子？
06:12
It's taken several years to now look at it detached and say --
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要过好多年我才能看着它，不在纠结，然后
06:18
as you walk around the corner and a piece of it works with the road
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当你走过建筑的拐角，发现有一块地方与街道很契合，
06:23
and the street, and it appears to have a relationship --
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而那条街，似乎和建筑物产生了感情，
06:27
that I started to like it.
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就在那一刻，我猜喜欢上了它。
06:29
RSW: What's the status of the New York project?
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乌尔曼：那么纽约的项目怎么样了？
06:32
FG: I don't really know.
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盖瑞：我也不太晓得。
06:34
Tom Krens came to me with Bilbao and explained it all to me,
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汤姆·科伦斯拿着毕尔巴鄂来找我，并详述了一番，
06:38
and I thought he was nuts.
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当是我就觉得他是个疯子，
06:40
I didn't think he knew what he was doing,
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而且我认为他根本不知道自己在干什么。
06:42
and he pulled it off.
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但是，他把这事儿弄成了。
06:44
So, I think he's Icarus and Phoenix all in one guy.
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所以我觉得他是伊卡洛斯和菲尼克斯的合体。
06:48
(Laughter)
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（笑）
06:50
He gets up there and then he ... comes back up.
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他已经取得了很高成就——然后下去，又上来。
06:57
They're still talking about it.
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人们直到现在都还对此议论纷纷。
06:59
September 11 generated some interest
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九一一事件引起了一些人把它移到
07:05
in moving it over to Ground Zero,
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零号地块的想法。
07:09
and I'm totally against that.
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而我是双手双脚反对的。
07:14
I just feel uncomfortable talking about or building anything on Ground Zero
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讨论零号地块让我觉得很不舒服，更别说在上面建东西了。
07:22
I think for a long time.
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这件事我想了很久。
07:26
RSW: The picture on the screen,
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乌尔曼：屏幕上的这幅图，
07:28
is that Disney?
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这是迪士尼吗？
07:30
FG: Yeah.
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盖瑞：是的。
07:31
RSW: How much further along is it than that,
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乌尔曼：还有多久，
07:33
and when will that be finished?
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什么时候才能完工？
07:34
FG: That will be finished in 2003 -- September, October --
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盖瑞：要到2003年的九月或者十月。
07:41
and I'm hoping Kyu, and Herbie, and Yo-Yo and all those guys
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我希望Kyu, Herbie, 还有马友友以及所有那些音乐家
07:48
come play with us at that place.
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能和我们一起在那儿演出。
07:52
Luckily, today most of the people I'm working with are people I really like.
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很幸运，今天和我在一起工作的人，大都是我很喜欢的，
07:56
Richard Koshalek is probably one of the main reasons
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理查德·可杀莱克可能是众多因素中
07:59
that Disney Hall came to me.
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迪士尼剧场找到我的原因。
08:02
He's been a cheerleader for quite a long time.
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他一直都像个拉拉队队长似的。
08:05
There aren't many people around that are really involved
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那个项目并没有太多人涉及到建筑外观设计，
08:09
with architecture as clients.
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因为雇主们...
08:11
If you think about the world,
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你知道的，想想看这个世界
08:15
and even just in this audience,
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就算是我们面前的这些观众，
08:17
most of us are involved with buildings.
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我们之中大多数人是与大楼，房子相联系，
08:23
Nothing that you would call architecture, right?
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你根本不会想到将他们成为建筑，对吧？
08:26
And so to find one, a guy like that,
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所以找到一个那样的人，
08:31
you hang on to him.
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你可以信赖，依靠，明白？
08:33
He's become the head of Art Center,
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他成为了艺术中心的领导，
08:36
and there's a building by Craig Ellwood there.
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那儿已经有一座克雷格·埃尔伍德的作品。
08:40
I knew Craig and respected him.
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我认识克雷格而且很尊敬他。
08:44
They want to add to it
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他们想要再加点什么。
08:46
and it's hard to add to a building like that --
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很难在那样的一座建筑上再加建东西。
08:47
it's a beautiful, minimalist, black steel building --
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那是一座漂亮、极简的黑色钢制建筑，
08:51
and Richard wants to add a library and more student stuff
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而理查德想要再添一个图书馆和一些为学生服务的设施。
09:01
and it's a lot of acreage.
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那得占很大的地方。
09:03
I convinced him to let me bring in another architect
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我说服他让我带上另一位建筑师，
09:07
from Portugal: Alvaro Siza.
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葡萄牙人，阿尔瓦罗·西扎。
09:10
RSW: Why did you want that?
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乌尔曼：为什么想让他加入？
09:12
FG: I knew you'd ask that question.
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盖瑞：我就知道你会问这个问题。
09:15
It was intuitive.
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只能说是直觉。
09:18
(Laughter)
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（笑）
09:21
Alvaro Siza grew up and lived in Portugal
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盖瑞：阿尔瓦罗·西扎在葡萄牙出生，并在那儿长大，
09:27
and is probably considered the Portuguese main guy in architecture.
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大概还被公认为葡萄牙本土的建筑业主心骨。
09:32
I visited with him a few years ago
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几年前我去拜访他，
09:35
and he showed me his early work,
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他给我看了他的早期作品。
09:37
and his early work had a resemblance to my early work.
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他的早期作品和我的早期作品有几分相似。
09:44
When I came out of college,
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当我刚从学校毕业，
09:47
I started to try to do things contextually in Southern California,
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我开始尝试在南加州做一些地域性的东西
09:51
and you got into the logic of Spanish colonial tile roofs
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你可以想到西班牙知名时期的砖瓦屋顶
09:57
and things like that.
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以及那之类的东西。
09:59
I tried to understand that language as a beginning,
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我以理解那种语言为开端，
10:04
as a place to jump off,
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把它当做一块跳板。
10:06
and there was so much of it being done by spec builders
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那儿已经有太多的模式化建造者，
10:11
and it was trivialized so much that it wasn't ...
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建筑元素被过于淡化以至于不能——
10:15
I just stopped.
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总之我停了下来。
10:17
I mean, Charlie Moore did a bunch of it,
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我的意思是，查理·摩尔做了很多类似的东西，
10:19
but it didn't feel good to me.
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但我无法被它们吸引。
10:23
Siza, on the other hand, continued in Portugal
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而西扎，在葡萄牙
10:26
where the real stuff was
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进行着实实在在的实践，
10:29
and evolved a modern language that relates to that historic language.
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并形成了一套与历史语言相联系的现代语言。
10:37
And I always felt that he should come to Southern California
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我一直觉得他可以到南加州来
10:43
and do a building.
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进行他的实践。
10:44
I tried to get him a couple of jobs and they didn't pan out.
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我试图给他争取一些项目，但是没有成功。
10:49
I like the idea of collaboration with people like that
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而且我喜欢与这样的人合作，这是不错的主意
10:56
because it pushes you.
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因为这种合作推我前进。
11:04
I've done it with Claes Oldenburg and with Richard Serra,
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我曾经与克拉斯·欧登伯格和里查德·塞拉合作过，
11:09
who doesn't think architecture is art.
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他们并不将建筑视为艺术。
11:12
Did you see that thing?
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你注意到了吗？
11:15
RSW: No. What did he say?
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乌尔曼：他怎么说的？
11:17
FG: He calls architecture "plumbing."
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盖瑞：他把建筑叫做“铅工业。”
11:19
(Laughter)
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（笑）
11:22
FG: Anyway, the Siza thing.
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盖瑞：不论如何，与西扎的合作，
11:26
It's a richer experience.
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是更加丰富更有意义的经历。
11:28
It must be like that for Kyu doing things with musicians --
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正像Kyu与其他音乐家合作
11:31
it's similar to that I would imagine --
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我觉得与西扎合作就是那么个感觉。
11:33
where you ... huh?
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你会——呃？
11:35
Audience: Liquid architecture.
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观众：液态建筑。
11:37
FG: Liquid architecture.
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盖瑞：液态建筑。
11:39
(Laughter)
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（笑）
11:40
Where you ... It's like jazz: you improvise, you work together,
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就像爵士乐——你可以即兴发挥，大家一起演奏。
11:44
you play off each other, you make something,
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你们互相挑战，你弄点儿什么，
11:50
they make something.
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他们再弄点儿什么。
11:52
And I think
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我认为这是一种——
11:55
for me, it's a way of trying to understand the city
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对我来说，这是一种理解一个城市的方法，
11:59
and what might happen in the city.
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以及这个城市将会发生什么。
12:01
RSW: Is it going to be near the current campus?
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乌尔曼：它会建在现有的场地附近吗？
12:04
Or is it going to be down near ...
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还是会在——
12:06
FG: No, it's near the current campus.
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改服i：不，它就在现有场地附近。
12:08
Anyway, he's that kind of patron.
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不论如何，他就是那种顾客。
12:10
It's not his money, of course.
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当然，那不是他的钱就是了。
12:12
(Laughter)
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（笑）
12:15
RSW: What's his schedule on that?
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乌尔曼：他的计划是什么？
12:17
FG: I don't know.
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盖瑞：我不知道。
12:18
What's the schedule, Richard?
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什么计划，理查德？
12:20
Richard Koshalek: [Unclear] starts from 2004.
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理查德：2004年开工。
12:22
FG: 2004.
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盖瑞：2004。
12:25
You can come to the opening. I'll invite you.
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你可以来参加开工典礼，我会邀请你的
12:27
No, but the issue of city building in democracy is interesting
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不，但民主的城市建设这件事儿很有趣，
12:35
because it creates chaos, right?
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因为它会造成混乱，是吗？
12:38
Everybody doing their thing makes a very chaotic environment,
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每个人各干各的会造成一种非常混乱的局面，
12:42
and if you can figure out how to work off each other --
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如果你能相出胜过对方的方法——
12:47
if you can get a bunch of people
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我是说，不是那—个意思——如果你能找到一群人，
12:52
who respect each other's work and play off each other,
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能在互相尊重的前提下良性竞争，
12:56
you might be able to create models for
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可能就能实现建设城市的各个分区
12:58
how to build sections of the city without resorting to the one architect.
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且不仅仅依赖于一个建筑师的建设模型。
13:06
Like the Rockefeller Center model,
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就像是洛克菲勒中心模型，
13:08
which is kind of from another era.
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就像是另一个时代的作品。
13:11
RSW: I found the most remarkable thing.
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乌尔曼：我找到了最值得称道的东西了。
13:14
My preconception of Bilbao was this wonderful building,
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我对毕尔巴鄂的预想是一座精彩的建筑，
13:19
you go inside and there'd be extraordinary spaces.
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进去之后有非凡的空间。
13:21
I'd seen drawings you had presented here at TED.
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我看过你以前在TED展示的草图。
13:24
The surprise of Bilbao was in its context to the city.
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毕尔巴鄂带来的惊喜是它与城市地域的互相适应。
13:29
That was the surprise of going across the river,
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那是跨河，连接周围的高速公路，
13:31
of going on the highway around it,
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以及沿街行走突然邂逅它
13:33
of walking down the street and finding it.
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给我们带来的惊喜。
13:36
That was the real surprise of Bilbao.
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那我毕尔巴鄂的真正惊喜所在。
13:39
FG: But you know, Richard,
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盖瑞：但是你知道，理查德，
13:40
most architects when they present their work --
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当大多建筑师展示他们的作品时——
13:42
most of the people we know,
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我们知道的多数人，
13:43
you get up and you talk about your work,
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会站起来，谈论自己的作品，
13:46
and it's almost like you tell everybody you're a good guy
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就像告诉所有人你是个好人，
13:53
by saying, "Look, I'm worried about the context,
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仅凭一句：“看，我考虑到了地域问题，
13:58
I'm worried about the city,
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我为那座城市着想，
14:00
I'm worried about my client,
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我为我的雇主着想，
14:03
I worry about budget, that I'm on time."
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我还考虑到了预算，甚至我如期完工。”
14:05
Blah, blah, blah and all that stuff.
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这个，那个，全是这类话。
14:07
And it's like cleansing yourself so that you can ...
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就像是拼命洗清自己——
14:11
by saying all that, it means your work is good somehow.
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好像说那那些就可以似的，这些可以一定程度上说明你的工作完成得不错
14:18
And I think everybody --
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而且我认为每个人——
14:21
I mean that should be a matter of fact, like gravity.
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我是指应该像对待事实，像对待重力
14:24
You're not going to defy gravity.
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你不可能否认重力的存在，或者反抗它
14:27
You've got to work with the building department.
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你必须和工程部门合作
14:29
If you don't meet the budgets, you're not going to get much work.
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如果工程超支，你就很难拿到很多项目。
14:35
If it leaks --
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如果建筑发生渗水——
14:37
Bilbao did not leak.
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毕尔巴鄂没有渗水
14:40
I was so proud.
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让我非常骄傲
14:43
(Laughter)
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（笑）
14:45
The MIT project -- they were interviewing me for MIT
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麻省理工的项目——他们就那个项目对我进行面试，
14:48
and they sent their facilities people to Bilbao.
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还将工作人员派去毕尔巴鄂
14:51
I met them in Bilbao.
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我在毕尔巴鄂和他们见面
14:53
They came for three days.
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他们待了三天。
14:55
RSW: This is the computer building?
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乌尔曼：这就是计算机楼？
14:57
FG: Yeah, the computer building.
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盖瑞：是的，计算机楼。
14:58
They were there three days and it rained every day
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他们待了三天，天天下雨
15:00
and they kept walking around --
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他们到处转
15:02
I noticed they were looking under things
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我注意到他们总在往底下看，
15:04
and looking for things,
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总在找什么东西
15:06
and they wanted to know where the buckets were hidden, you know?
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他们实际上是在找水桶都藏在哪儿了，明白？
15:10
People put buckets out ...
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人们得把桶搁外边儿。
15:13
I was clean. There wasn't a bloody leak in the place,
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我可一身清白！那地方天衣无缝，滴水不漏。
15:15
it was just fantastic.
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实在太棒了！
15:17
But you've got to --
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但是你得——
15:19
yeah, well up until then every building leaked, so this ...
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是的，过不了太久什么房子都会有渗水的毛病，所以说——
15:23
(Laughter)
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（笑）
15:28
RSW: Frank had a sort of ...
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乌尔曼：弗兰克有种——
15:30
FG: Ask Miriam!
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盖瑞：去问米里亚姆！
15:31
RW: ... sort of had a fame. His fame was built on that in L.A. for a while.
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乌尔曼：——一种名声——一阵子他在洛杉矶的名望就是靠“不漏水”得来的。
15:36
(Laughter)
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（笑）
15:39
FG: You've all heard the Frank Lloyd Wright story,
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盖瑞：你们肯定都听说过弗兰克·劳埃德·赖特的故事
15:42
when the woman called and said,
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当一个女人叫他并说：
15:44
"Mr. Wright, I'm sitting on the couch
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“赖特先生，我当时躺在躺椅上，
15:49
and the water's pouring in on my head."
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水就直接浇在我头上。”
15:51
And he said, "Madam, move your chair."
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他回答：“太太，您应该把椅子移开些。“
15:53
(Laughter)
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（笑）
15:57
So, some years later I was doing a building,
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过了些年我在做另一个项目
16:01
a little house on the beach for Norton Simon,
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为诺顿·西蒙在海滩上建一栋小房子。
16:03
and his secretary, who was kind of a hell on wheels type lady,
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他的秘书，一位严肃苛刻的小姐
16:07
called me and said,
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打电话给我说：
16:10
"Mr. Simon's sitting at his desk
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“西蒙先生正坐在他的书桌前，
16:13
and the water's coming in on his head."
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水正落在他的头顶。”
16:15
And I told her the Frank Lloyd Wright story.
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我就把弗兰克·劳埃德·赖特的故事讲给她听。
16:17
RSW: Didn't get a laugh.
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乌尔曼：她肯定没笑。
16:19
FG: No. Not now either.
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盖瑞：是的，就是现在也不会。
16:21
(Laughter)
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（笑）
16:28
But my point is that ... and I call it the "then what?"
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我的意思是——我能不能这么说“那又怎么样？”
16:32
OK, you solved all the problems,
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不错，你解决了所有问题
16:34
you did all the stuff, you made nice,
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能做的都做了，你干得不错。
16:37
you loved your clients,
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你喜欢你的客户，
16:39
you loved the city,
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你喜爱那个城市，
16:41
you're a good guy, you're a good person ...
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你是个好人——你是个不错的家伙
16:43
and then what?
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那又怎么样？
16:45
What do you bring to it?
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你到底带来了什么呢？
16:47
And I think that's what I've always been interested in,
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这才是一直以来我的兴趣所在
16:51
is that -- which is a personal kind of expression.
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就是——一种个人的表达
17:03
Bilbao, I think, shows that you can have
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毕尔巴鄂，我认为，就展现出你可以有
17:07
that kind of personal expression
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自己的特质表达
17:09
and still touch all the bases that are necessary
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而且符合所有基本的条件
17:13
of fitting into the city.
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并融入了那个城市
17:15
That's what reminded me of it.
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这提醒我想到了“特质表达”
17:20
And I think that's the issue, you know;
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我认为那才是重点，你知道。
17:22
it's the "then what" that most clients who hire architects --
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就是“那又怎样”让大多雇佣了建筑师的客户——
17:26
most clients aren't hiring architects for that.
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大多客户并不是为了那个雇佣建筑师
17:31
They're hiring them to get it done, get it on budget,
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建筑师至是被雇来完成项目，把握好预算
17:35
be polite,
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讲好听点，就是这样。
17:38
and they're missing out on the real value of an architect.
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他们不理解一位建筑师的价值所在。
17:50
RSW: At a certain point a number of years ago, people --
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乌尔曼：在一个时期，一些年前，人们——
17:52
when Michael Graves was a fashion, before teapots ...
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在迈克尔·格雷夫斯很受欢迎的时候，在茶壶以前——
18:00
FG: I did a teapot and nobody bought it.
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盖瑞：我也做了个茶壶，但没人买我的账。
18:02
(Laughter)
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（笑）
18:04
RSW: Did it leak?
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乌尔曼：它漏不？
18:06
FG: No.
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盖瑞：一点儿不。
18:07
(Laughter)
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（笑）
18:13
RSW: ... people wanted a Michael Graves building.
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乌尔曼：人们都想要迈克尔·格雷夫斯那样的设计。
18:21
Is that a curse, that people want a Bilbao building?
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人们都想要毕尔巴鄂那样的设计是不是留下个祸根？
18:26
FG: Yeah.
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盖瑞：是的，我总接到那样的电话。
18:30
Since Bilbao opened, which is now four, five years,
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当毕尔巴鄂开放的时候——大概距现在有四五年了吧，我也记不清了——
18:34
both Krens and I have been called
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科伦斯和我都接到很多这样的电话，
18:39
with at least 100 opportunities --
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我也不清楚了，大概至少有100个吧
18:43
China, Brazil, other parts of Spain --
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中国的，巴西的，还有西班牙其他地方的
18:50
to come in and do the Bilbao effect.
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都想要做毕尔巴鄂那样的效果
18:53
And I've met with some of these people.
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这些人我也见了一些
18:56
Usually I say no right away,
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通常，我都直接拒绝
18:58
but some of them come with pedigree
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但是有些人把家谱都拿来了，
19:01
and they sound well-intentioned
336
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他们听上去有很好的用意
19:04
and they get you for at least one or two meetings.
337
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他们找到你，至少还要开一两次会
19:10
In one case, I flew all the way to Malaga with a team
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有一次我甚至和整个团队飞到马拉加去
19:15
because the thing was signed with seals and various
339
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因为邀请函上有各种盖章和签名——
19:21
very official seals from the city,
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你知道的——非常官方的城市签章
19:27
and that they wanted me to come and do a building in their port.
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他们想让我过去在港口建一座建筑
19:31
I asked them what kind of building it was.
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我问他们想要什么样的
19:33
"When you get here we'll explain it." Blah, blah, blah.
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“你来了我们就会告诉你的——”诸如此类的搪塞话
19:36
So four of us went.
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我们四个人一起去了
19:39
And they took us -- they put us up in a great hotel
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他们接待了我们，安排了非常好的酒店
19:44
and we were looking over the bay,
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然后带我们去看那个海湾
19:47
and then they took us in a boat out in the water
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他们带我们乘船出海
19:50
and showed us all these sights in the harbor.
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指给我们看海港的景观
19:53
Each one was more beautiful than the other.
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每一处都不相上下，非常美丽
19:59
And then we were going to have lunch with the mayor
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然后的安排是去和市长一起吃了午餐
20:03
and we were going to have dinner with
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再和马拉加市的重量级人士
20:05
the most important people in Malaga.
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一起吃晚餐
20:09
Just before going to lunch with the mayor,
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就在去和市长午餐之前
20:13
we went to the harbor commissioner.
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我们去见了港口的行政长官
20:15
It was a table as long as this carpet
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那张桌子能有这块地毯长
20:18
and the harbor commissioner was here,
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行政官就坐那儿
20:20
and I was here, and my guys.
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我在这儿，和我的人一起
20:22
We sat down, and we had a drink of water
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我们坐下，喝了点水
20:25
and everybody was quiet.
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每个人都很安静
20:27
And the guy looked at me and said,
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那个人看着我，说：
20:29
"Now what can I do for you, Mr. Gehry?"
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“我能为你做些什么，盖瑞先生？”
20:32
(Laughter)
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（笑）
20:36
RSW: Oh, my God.
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乌尔曼：哦，老天
20:38
FG: So, I got up.
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盖瑞：所以我就站了起来
20:40
I said to my team,
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告诉我的人，
20:42
"Let's get out of here."
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“咱们撤吧。“
20:44
We stood up, we walked out.
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我们站起来，走了出去。
20:45
They followed -- the guy that dragged us there followed us and he said,
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他们跟着——那个人一路跟着我们，然后说：
20:48
"You mean you're not going to have lunch with the mayor?"
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“您难道不去和市长吃午餐了吗？”
20:50
I said, "Nope."
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我回答：“八去。”
20:52
"You're not going to have dinner at all?"
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“你们难道也不去晚餐了吗？”
20:54
They just brought us there to hustle this group,
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他们就是带我们去那儿把这伙人凑到一块儿
20:58
you know, to create a project.
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你知道的，去创造一个项目
21:00
And we get a lot of that.
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这样的我们见得多了
21:05
Luckily, I'm old enough that
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还好我已经够老的了
21:08
I can complain I can't travel.
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我可以把不能进行长途旅行当借口
21:11
(Laughter)
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（笑）
21:13
I don't have my own plane yet.
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我还没有私人飞机呐
21:18
RSW: Well, I'm going to wind this up and wind up the meeting
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乌尔曼：我要收收尾了，差不多结束这次谈话
21:21
because it's been very long.
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因为它已经够长的了
21:23
But let me just say a couple words.
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我就说两句
21:25
FG: Can I say something?
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盖瑞：我能说两句吗？
21:28
Are you going to talk about me or you?
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你是想说我还是你自己啊？
21:31
(Laughter)
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（笑）
21:34
(Applause)
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（鼓掌♫）
21:37
RSW: Once a shit, always a shit!
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乌尔曼：狗改不了吃屎！
21:42
FG: Because I want to get a standing ovation like everybody, so ...
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盖瑞：我也是常人嘛，想体验一下站起来接受掌声的感觉，所以——
21:45
RSW: You're going to get one! You're going to get one!
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乌尔曼：肯定有机会的嘛！不会忘了给你鼓掌的！
21:47
(Laughter)
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（笑）
21:48
I'm going to make it for you!
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乌尔曼：我要给你鼓个掌先！
21:50
FG: No, no. Wait a minute!
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盖瑞：不，不，等等！
21:51
(Applause)
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（鼓掌♫♪）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Frank Gehry - ArchitectA living legend, Frank Gehry has forged his own language of architecture, creating astonishing buildings all over the world, such as the Guggenheim in Bilbao, the Walt Disney Concert Hall in LA, and Manhattan's new IAC building.
Why you should listen
Frank Gehry is one of the world's most influential architects. His designs for the likes of the Guggenheim Museum in Bilbao and the Walt Disney Concert Hall in LA are bold statements that have imposed a new aesthetic of architecture on the world at large, enlivening streetscapes and creating new destinations. Gehry has extended his vision beyond brick-and-mortar too, collaborating with artists such as Claes Oldenberg and Richard Serra, and designing watches, teapots and a line of jewelry for Tiffany & Co.
Now in his 80s, Gehry refuses to slow down or compromise his fierce vision: He and his team at Gehry Partners are working on a $4 billion development of the Atlantic Yards in Brooklyn, and a spectacular Guggenheim museum in Abu Dhabi, United Arab Emirates, which interprets local architecture traditions into a language all his own. Incorporating local architectural motifs without simply paying lip service to Middle Eastern culture, the building bears all the hallmarks of a classic Gehry design.
Frank Gehry | Speaker | TED.com