TED2002
Frank Gehry: A master architect asks, Now what?
弗蘭克•蓋瑞：“那又如何？”
Filmed:
Readability: 3.6
1,073,166 views
在與理查•所羅•烏爾曼的天馬星空又不乏娛樂性的對話中，建築師弗蘭克•蓋瑞與TED的觀眾們分享 了如何變失敗為力量，他最近的作品，以及這其中最重要的因素——“那又如何？”
Frank Gehry - Architect
A living legend, Frank Gehry has forged his own language of architecture, creating astonishing buildings all over the world, such as the Guggenheim in Bilbao, the Walt Disney Concert Hall in LA, and Manhattan's new IAC building. Full bio
A living legend, Frank Gehry has forged his own language of architecture, creating astonishing buildings all over the world, such as the Guggenheim in Bilbao, the Walt Disney Concert Hall in LA, and Manhattan's new IAC building. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
Frank Gehry: I listened to this scientist this morning.
0
0
2000
弗蘭克•蓋瑞：今天早上我聽到一位科學家在和
00:14
Dr. Mullis was talking about his experiments,
1
2000
5000
穆裏斯博士說他的實驗，
00:19
and I realized that I almost became a scientist.
2
7000
3000
突然想到自己當年差點兒就成了科學家。
00:22
When I was 14 my parents bought me a chemistry set
3
10000
6000
我十四歲的時候父母給我買了一套化學儀器。
00:29
and I decided to make water.
4
17000
2000
然後我決定要合成水。
00:31
(Laughter)
5
19000
9000
（笑）
00:40
So, I made a hydrogen generator and I made an oxygen generator,
6
28000
5000
於是我做了一套氫氣生成器和一套氧氣生成器。
00:45
and I had the two pipes leading into a beaker
7
33000
2000
我將這兩根管子導入量杯裡，
00:47
and I threw a match in.
8
35000
2000
然後我扔了根火柴進去。
00:49
(Laughter)
9
37000
2000
（笑♫）
00:51
And the glass -- luckily I turned around --
10
39000
3000
然後玻璃—幸好我轉過了身，
00:54
I had it all in my back
11
42000
2000
全都砸在了我背上。
00:56
and I was about 15 feet away.
12
44000
3000
大概十五尺左右的地方，
00:59
The wall was covered with ...
13
47000
2000
牆上覆蓋著---
01:01
I had an explosion.
14
49000
2000
我制造了一场爆炸。
01:03
Richard Saul Wurman: Really?
15
51000
1000
理查•所羅•烏爾曼：啊？真的？
01:04
FG: People on the street came and knocked on the door
16
52000
1000
蓋瑞：街上的人都過來敲門，
01:05
to see if I was okay.
17
53000
2000
看看我有沒有事。
01:07
RSW: ... huh. (Laughter)
18
55000
7000
（笑）
01:14
I'd like to start
19
62000
2000
烏爾曼：恩，我要重新開個頭—
01:16
this session again.
20
64000
3000
重新開始這段對話。
01:19
The gentleman to my left is the very famous, perhaps overly famous,
21
67000
5000
我左邊的這位先生就是非常著名的，可能有點兒名不副實的
01:24
Frank Gehry.
22
72000
2000
弗蘭克•蓋瑞。
01:26
(Laughter)
23
74000
1000
（笑）
01:27
(Applause)
24
75000
1000
（鼓掌♫）
01:28
And Frank, you've come to a place in your life, which is astonishing.
25
76000
4000
弗蘭克，你已經攀登到了人生中不可思議的高度。
01:32
I mean it is astonishing for an artist, for an architect,
26
80000
5000
我是說，對於一位藝術家—一位建築師而言—
01:37
to become actually an icon and a legend in their own time.
27
85000
2000
成為你所屬的這一個時代的風向標，甚至傳說。
01:39
I mean you have become, whether you can giggle at it
28
87000
3000
我是說你成功了，就算你對這個事實竊笑，
01:42
because it's a funny ... you know, it's a strange thought,
29
90000
3000
因為確實很好笑——你知道，這是很奇怪的想法。
01:45
but your building is an icon --
30
93000
2000
但你的建築物是種象徵。
01:47
you can draw a little picture of that building, it can be used in ads --
31
95000
3000
你給那幢建築畫張小圖，它就可以被用在廣告裏。
01:50
and you've had not rock star status, but celebrity status
32
98000
5000
而且你擁有—非搖滾明星的地位，而是名人的地位，
01:55
in doing what you wanted to do for most of your life.
33
103000
5000
可以在一生的大部分時間中自己想做的事情。
02:00
And I know the road was extremely difficult.
34
108000
4000
我知道，這一路走來異常艱難。
02:05
And it didn't seem, at least, that your sell outs,
35
113000
4000
而且你做出的種種犧牲，
02:09
whatever they were, were very big.
36
117000
4000
無論何種犧牲，都是巨大的。
02:13
You kept moving ahead in a life where you're dependent
37
121000
6000
致力於為他人服務的一生中，
02:19
on working for somebody.
38
127000
2000
你不斷前進，
02:22
But that's an interesting thing for a creative person.
39
130000
3000
但對於一個富有創造力的人來說，這很有趣，
02:25
A lot of us work for people;
40
133000
2000
很多像我們這樣的人都服務於他人，
02:27
we're in the hands of other people.
41
135000
2000
我們的生活在他人的股掌之中。
02:29
And that's one of the great dilemmas -- we're in a creativity session --
42
137000
4000
這是眾多窘境之一—我們身處一個創造的時代—
02:33
it's one of the great dilemmas in creativity:
43
141000
2000
這是創造力面對的最大的困境之一。
02:35
how to do work that's big enough and not sell out.
44
143000
4000
如何做到最大限度而又始終堅持自我。
02:39
And you've achieved that
45
147000
2000
而你做到了。
02:41
and that makes your win doubly big, triply big.
46
149000
4000
這給你帶來了雙贏—甚至多贏。
02:46
It's not quite a question but you can comment on it.
47
154000
1000
這不是一個問題，但你可以談談你的看法。
02:47
It's a big issue.
48
155000
2000
這很重要。
02:50
FG: Well, I've always just ...
49
158000
2000
蓋瑞：嗯，一直以來我只是—
02:52
I've never really gone out looking for work.
50
160000
5000
我從來沒有自己去找過工作，
02:57
I always waited for it to sort of hit me on the head.
51
165000
3000
我是守株待兔型的。
03:00
And when I started out,
52
168000
3000
剛開始的時候，
03:03
I thought that architecture was a service business
53
171000
3000
我認為建築業是門服務性行業，
03:06
and that you had to please the clients and stuff.
54
174000
3000
你必須取悅雇主和你的團隊。
03:09
And I realized when I'd come into the meetings
55
177000
4000
我意識到，我一走進會議室，
03:13
with these corrugated metal and chain link stuff,
56
181000
5000
夾著那些打了褶的金屬和鏈條什麼的，
03:18
and people would just look at me
57
186000
3000
人們只會看著我，
03:21
like I'd just landed from Mars.
58
189000
2000
好像我從火星來的似的。
03:23
But I couldn't do anything else.
59
191000
3000
但其他的我什麼都做不了。
03:26
That was my response to the people in the time.
60
194000
3000
那就是我對人們以及那個時代的回應。
03:29
And actually, it was responding to clients that I had
61
197000
4000
事實上，那是我對顧客的回應。
03:33
who didn't have very much money, so they couldn't afford very much.
62
201000
3000
他們沒有那麼多錢，負擔不起太好的材料。
03:36
I think it was circumstantial.
63
204000
2000
我覺得那是迫不得已。
03:38
Until I got to my house, where the client was my wife.
64
206000
5000
直到我弄自己的房子，這個時候老婆成了我的顧客。
03:43
We bought this tiny little bungalow in Santa Monica
65
211000
3000
我們在聖塔莫尼卡買了間小屋，
03:46
and for like 50 grand I built a house around it.
66
214000
3000
用大概5萬美元在那兒造了間房子。
03:49
And a few people got excited about it.
67
217000
4000
一些人見了那間房子很興奮。
03:53
I was visiting with an artist, Michael Heizer,
68
221000
3000
曾經我和一位藝術家，邁克爾•黑澤爾一起外出，
03:56
out in the desert near Las Vegas somewhere.
69
224000
3000
在拉斯維加斯附近的某個沙漠。
03:59
He's building this huge concrete place.
70
227000
3000
當時他正在那兒建一座巨大的混凝土建築。
04:02
And it was late in the evening. We'd had a lot to drink.
71
230000
3000
天有點晚了，我們喝了不少酒。
04:05
We were standing out in the desert all alone and,
72
233000
3000
就我倆，站在巨大的沙漠中間，他說—
04:08
thinking about my house, he said,
73
236000
2000
想到我的房子—他說，
04:10
"Did it ever occur to you if you built stuff more permanent,
74
238000
5000
你有沒有想過建些更加永恆的東西，
04:15
somewhere in 2000 years somebody's going to like it?"
75
243000
4000
在未來2000年裏都有人欣賞它。
04:20
(Laughter)
76
248000
4000
（笑♫）
04:24
So, I thought, "Yeah, that's probably a good idea."
77
252000
5000
我就想——是啊，說不定是個好主意。
04:29
Luckily I started to get some clients that had a little more money,
78
257000
4000
我很幸運，找到了一些稍有余錢的雇主，
04:33
so the stuff was a little more permanent.
79
261000
3000
建造的東西變得稍微“永恆”些了。
04:36
But I just found out the world ain't going to last that long,
80
264000
3000
之後我又發現世界永遠不會只為你持續那麼會兒。
04:39
this guy was telling us the other day.
81
267000
2000
有一天，這傢伙又告訴我們，
04:41
So where do we go now?
82
269000
3000
所以我們現在要往哪個方向走呢？
04:44
Back to -- everything's so temporary.
83
272000
2000
回到—一切都那麼暫時，轉眼即逝。
04:46
I don't see it the way you characterized it.
84
274000
5000
我眼中的世界和你不一樣，
04:52
For me, every day is a new thing.
85
280000
4000
對我來說，每一天都是全新的，
04:56
I approach each project with a new insecurity,
86
284000
5000
我每開始一個新專案，都帶著不安的心情，
05:01
almost like the first project I ever did,
87
289000
2000
像是對待我人生裡的第一個專案一樣。
05:03
and I get the sweats,
88
291000
4000
我付出汗水，
05:07
I go in and start working, I'm not sure where I'm going --
89
295000
2000
埋頭工作，不知道結果會是怎樣。
05:09
if I knew where I was going, I wouldn't do it.
90
297000
3000
如果我對前方一切了然於心，那我就不會去做。
05:12
When I can predict or plan it, I don't do it.
91
300000
3000
如果我能預測或者計畫一切，我也不會繼續下去。
05:15
I discard it.
92
303000
2000
我會把預測或者計畫丟到一邊去。
05:17
So I approach it with the same trepidation.
93
305000
3000
所以我才能帶著同樣的不穩定感對待每一個項目。
05:20
Obviously, over time I have a lot more confidence
94
308000
5000
當然，我的信心隨著時間累積著，
05:25
that it's going to be OK.
95
313000
2000
所以一切都會變好。
05:28
I do run a kind of a business --
96
316000
3000
我確實是在經營一門生意，
05:31
I've got 120 people
97
319000
2000
我有個120人的團隊，
05:33
and you've got to pay them,
98
321000
2000
要付給每個人薪水，
05:35
so there's a lot of responsibility involved --
99
323000
2000
這其中包含了很大責任。
05:37
but the actual work on the project is with,
100
325000
4000
但這工作的關鍵，
05:41
I think, a healthy insecurity.
101
329000
2000
我覺得是很合理的不安全感
05:43
And like the playwright said the other day -- I could relate to him:
102
331000
7000
正如那位劇作家說的—我引用他的話—
05:50
you're not sure.
103
338000
2000
你不確定。
05:52
When Bilbao was finished and I looked at it,
104
340000
4000
當畢爾巴鄂的工程（古根海姆美術館）結束的時候，我看著它，
05:56
I saw all the mistakes, I saw ...
105
344000
2000
我發現了所有的錯誤。
05:58
They weren't mistakes;
106
346000
2000
它們不能算是錯誤。
06:00
I saw everything that I would have changed
107
348000
2000
我看著我曾經可以改變的一切，
06:02
and I was embarrassed by it.
108
350000
3000
自己覺得有點難為情。
06:05
I felt an embarrassment -- "How could I have done that?
109
353000
3000
我覺得局促不安——怎麼弄成那樣了？
06:08
How could I have made shapes like that or done stuff like that?"
110
356000
4000
形狀怎麼成這樣，怎麼把那些地方弄成那個樣子？
06:12
It's taken several years to now look at it detached and say --
111
360000
6000
過好多年我才能超然地看著它，然後
06:18
as you walk around the corner and a piece of it works with the road
112
366000
5000
當你走過建築的拐角，發現有一塊地方與街道很契合，
06:23
and the street, and it appears to have a relationship --
113
371000
4000
它似乎和街道產生了一種聯繫，
06:27
that I started to like it.
114
375000
2000
我開始喜歡上了它。
06:29
RSW: What's the status of the New York project?
115
377000
3000
烏爾曼：紐約的項目怎麼樣了？
06:32
FG: I don't really know.
116
380000
2000
蓋瑞：我也不太清楚。
06:34
Tom Krens came to me with Bilbao and explained it all to me,
117
382000
4000
湯姆•科倫斯拿著畢爾巴鄂專案資料來找我，給我講了一番，
06:38
and I thought he was nuts.
118
386000
2000
當是我就覺得他是個瘋子，
06:40
I didn't think he knew what he was doing,
119
388000
2000
我認為他根本不知道自己在幹什麼。
06:42
and he pulled it off.
120
390000
2000
但是他把這事兒弄成了。
06:44
So, I think he's Icarus and Phoenix all in one guy.
121
392000
4000
所以我覺得他是伊卡洛斯和費尼克斯的合體。
06:48
(Laughter)
122
396000
2000
（笑）
06:50
He gets up there and then he ... comes back up.
123
398000
4000
他已經取得了很高成就—然後下去，又上來。
06:57
They're still talking about it.
124
405000
2000
直到現在大家都還在議論。
06:59
September 11 generated some interest
125
407000
6000
九一一事件後有人建議
07:05
in moving it over to Ground Zero,
126
413000
4000
將其移到世貿遺址。
07:09
and I'm totally against that.
127
417000
3000
而我堅決反對。
07:14
I just feel uncomfortable talking about or building anything on Ground Zero
128
422000
8000
談論世貿或者在世貿遺址上建東西我都覺得很不舒服。
07:22
I think for a long time.
129
430000
2000
這件事我想了很久。
07:26
RSW: The picture on the screen,
130
434000
2000
烏爾曼：螢幕上的這幅圖，
07:28
is that Disney?
131
436000
2000
是迪士尼嗎？
07:30
FG: Yeah.
132
438000
1000
蓋瑞：是的。
07:31
RSW: How much further along is it than that,
133
439000
2000
烏爾曼：還有多久，
07:33
and when will that be finished?
134
441000
1000
什麼時候能完工？
07:34
FG: That will be finished in 2003 -- September, October --
135
442000
6000
蓋瑞：要到2003年的九月或者十月。
07:41
and I'm hoping Kyu, and Herbie, and Yo-Yo and all those guys
136
449000
7000
到時候我希望Kyu, Herbie, 還有馬友友以及所有那些音樂家
07:48
come play with us at that place.
137
456000
3000
能和我們一起在那兒演出。
07:52
Luckily, today most of the people I'm working with are people I really like.
138
460000
3000
很幸運，今天和我在一起工作的人，大都是我很喜歡的。
07:56
Richard Koshalek is probably one of the main reasons
139
464000
3000
理查‧科沙萊克可能是迪士尼劇場找上我
07:59
that Disney Hall came to me.
140
467000
3000
的眾多因素中的主要原因。
08:02
He's been a cheerleader for quite a long time.
141
470000
3000
他一直都像個啦啦隊隊長似的。
08:05
There aren't many people around that are really involved
142
473000
4000
那個工程並沒有太多人涉及到
08:09
with architecture as clients.
143
477000
2000
建築風格設計。
08:11
If you think about the world,
144
479000
4000
你知道的，想想看這個世界
08:15
and even just in this audience,
145
483000
2000
包括我們面前的這些觀眾，
08:17
most of us are involved with buildings.
146
485000
6000
大多數人是與大樓相聯繫。
08:23
Nothing that you would call architecture, right?
147
491000
3000
你根本不會通過他們聯想到建築，對吧？
08:26
And so to find one, a guy like that,
148
494000
4000
所以找到一個那樣的人，
08:31
you hang on to him.
149
499000
2000
可以信賴的，你理解嗎？
08:33
He's become the head of Art Center,
150
501000
3000
他成為了藝術中心的主任，
08:36
and there's a building by Craig Ellwood there.
151
504000
4000
那兒已經有一座克雷格•埃爾伍德的作品。
08:40
I knew Craig and respected him.
152
508000
4000
我認識克雷格而且很尊敬他。
08:44
They want to add to it
153
512000
2000
他們想要再加點什麼。
08:46
and it's hard to add to a building like that --
154
514000
1000
但是很難在那樣的一座建築上再加個像它一樣的東西。
08:47
it's a beautiful, minimalist, black steel building --
155
515000
4000
那是一座漂亮、極簡的黑色鋼制建築，
08:51
and Richard wants to add a library and more student stuff
156
519000
9000
理查想要再建一個圖書館和一些為學生服務的設施。
09:01
and it's a lot of acreage.
157
529000
2000
那得占很大的地方。
09:03
I convinced him to let me bring in another architect
158
531000
4000
我說服他讓我帶上另一位建築師，
09:07
from Portugal: Alvaro Siza.
159
535000
3000
葡萄牙人，阿爾瓦羅•西紮。
09:10
RSW: Why did you want that?
160
538000
2000
烏爾曼：為什麼呢？
09:12
FG: I knew you'd ask that question.
161
540000
2000
蓋瑞：我就知道你得這樣問。
09:15
It was intuitive.
162
543000
2000
直覺吧。
09:18
(Laughter)
163
546000
3000
（笑）
09:21
Alvaro Siza grew up and lived in Portugal
164
549000
6000
蓋瑞：西紮在葡萄牙長大，也在那裏居住。
09:27
and is probably considered the Portuguese main guy in architecture.
165
555000
5000
現在被認為是葡萄牙建築學界的領軍人物。
09:32
I visited with him a few years ago
166
560000
3000
前些年我和他有過會面。
09:35
and he showed me his early work,
167
563000
2000
他給我看了一些他的早期作品。
09:37
and his early work had a resemblance to my early work.
168
565000
5000
他的早期作品和我的早期作品有些相似之處。
09:44
When I came out of college,
169
572000
3000
當我剛從學校畢業，
09:47
I started to try to do things contextually in Southern California,
170
575000
4000
我開始嘗試在南加州做一些地域性的東西。
09:51
and you got into the logic of Spanish colonial tile roofs
171
579000
6000
想到西班牙殖民時期的磚瓦屋頂風格
09:57
and things like that.
172
585000
2000
以及那類的東西。
09:59
I tried to understand that language as a beginning,
173
587000
5000
我以理解那種語言為開端，
10:04
as a place to jump off,
174
592000
2000
把它當做一塊跳板。
10:06
and there was so much of it being done by spec builders
175
594000
5000
那兒已經有太多的模式化建造者，
10:11
and it was trivialized so much that it wasn't ...
176
599000
4000
建築元素被過於淡化以至於不能—
10:15
I just stopped.
177
603000
2000
於是我停了下來。
10:17
I mean, Charlie Moore did a bunch of it,
178
605000
2000
我的意思是，查理•摩爾做了很多類似的東西，
10:19
but it didn't feel good to me.
179
607000
4000
但我無法被它們吸引。
10:23
Siza, on the other hand, continued in Portugal
180
611000
3000
另一方面西紮，在葡萄牙
10:26
where the real stuff was
181
614000
3000
進行著實實在在的實踐，
10:29
and evolved a modern language that relates to that historic language.
182
617000
8000
演化成了一種與歷史語言相聯繫的現代語言。
10:37
And I always felt that he should come to Southern California
183
625000
6000
我一直覺得他可以到南加州來
10:43
and do a building.
184
631000
1000
做一個工程。
10:44
I tried to get him a couple of jobs and they didn't pan out.
185
632000
4000
我嘗試給他爭取一些項目，但是沒有成功。
10:49
I like the idea of collaboration with people like that
186
637000
7000
而且我喜歡與這樣的人合作，
10:56
because it pushes you.
187
644000
4000
因為這樣會一直推動我。
11:04
I've done it with Claes Oldenburg and with Richard Serra,
188
652000
4000
我曾經與克拉斯•歐登伯格和裏查德•塞拉合作過，
11:09
who doesn't think architecture is art.
189
657000
3000
他們並不將建築視為藝術。
11:12
Did you see that thing?
190
660000
2000
你注意到了嗎？
11:15
RSW: No. What did he say?
191
663000
2000
烏爾曼：他怎麼說的？
11:17
FG: He calls architecture "plumbing."
192
665000
2000
蓋瑞：他把建築叫做“鉛工業。”
11:19
(Laughter)
193
667000
3000
（笑）
11:22
FG: Anyway, the Siza thing.
194
670000
3000
蓋瑞：不論如何，與西紮的合作，
11:26
It's a richer experience.
195
674000
2000
是很豐富很有意義的經歷。
11:28
It must be like that for Kyu doing things with musicians --
196
676000
3000
正像Kyu與其他音樂家合作，
11:31
it's similar to that I would imagine --
197
679000
2000
我覺得與西紮合作就是那麼個感覺。
11:33
where you ... huh?
198
681000
2000
你會—呃？
11:35
Audience: Liquid architecture.
199
683000
2000
觀眾：液態建築。
11:37
FG: Liquid architecture.
200
685000
2000
蓋瑞：液態建築。
11:39
(Laughter)
201
687000
1000
（笑）
11:40
Where you ... It's like jazz: you improvise, you work together,
202
688000
4000
就像爵士樂—你可以即興發揮，大家一起演奏。
11:44
you play off each other, you make something,
203
692000
6000
你們互相挑戰，你弄點兒什麼，
11:50
they make something.
204
698000
2000
他們再弄點兒什麼。
11:52
And I think
205
700000
3000
我認為這是一種—
11:55
for me, it's a way of trying to understand the city
206
703000
4000
對我來說，這是一種理解一個城市的方法，
11:59
and what might happen in the city.
207
707000
2000
以及這個城市將會發生什麼。
12:01
RSW: Is it going to be near the current campus?
208
709000
3000
烏爾曼：它會建在現有的場地附近嗎？
12:04
Or is it going to be down near ...
209
712000
2000
還是會在—
12:06
FG: No, it's near the current campus.
210
714000
2000
蓋瑞：不，它就在現有場地附近。
12:08
Anyway, he's that kind of patron.
211
716000
2000
不論如何，他就是那種顧客。
12:10
It's not his money, of course.
212
718000
2000
當然，那不是他的錢就是了。
12:12
(Laughter)
213
720000
3000
（笑）
12:15
RSW: What's his schedule on that?
214
723000
2000
烏爾曼：對此他的計畫是什麼？
12:17
FG: I don't know.
215
725000
1000
蓋瑞：我不知道。
12:18
What's the schedule, Richard?
216
726000
2000
什麼計畫，理查？
12:20
Richard Koshalek: [Unclear] starts from 2004.
217
728000
2000
理查：2004年開工。
12:22
FG: 2004.
218
730000
2000
蓋瑞：2004。
12:25
You can come to the opening. I'll invite you.
219
733000
2000
你可以來參加開工典禮，我會邀請你的。
12:27
No, but the issue of city building in democracy is interesting
220
735000
8000
不，但民主的城市建設很有趣，
12:35
because it creates chaos, right?
221
743000
3000
因為會造成混亂，是嗎？
12:38
Everybody doing their thing makes a very chaotic environment,
222
746000
4000
每個人各幹各的會造成一種非常混亂的局面，
12:42
and if you can figure out how to work off each other --
223
750000
5000
如果你能找出勝過對方的方法—
12:47
if you can get a bunch of people
224
755000
5000
我是說，不是那個意思—如果你能找到一群人，
12:52
who respect each other's work and play off each other,
225
760000
4000
在互相尊重的前提下良性競爭，
12:56
you might be able to create models for
226
764000
2000
就可能實現建設城市的各個分區
12:58
how to build sections of the city without resorting to the one architect.
227
766000
8000
而不僅僅依賴于一個建築模型。
13:06
Like the Rockefeller Center model,
228
774000
2000
就像是洛克菲勒中心模型，
13:08
which is kind of from another era.
229
776000
3000
像是另一個時代的作品。
13:11
RSW: I found the most remarkable thing.
230
779000
3000
烏爾曼：我找到了最值得稱道的東西了。
13:14
My preconception of Bilbao was this wonderful building,
231
782000
5000
我對畢爾巴鄂項目的預想是這樣一座精彩的建築，
13:19
you go inside and there'd be extraordinary spaces.
232
787000
2000
進去之後有非凡的空間。
13:21
I'd seen drawings you had presented here at TED.
233
789000
3000
我看過你以前在TED展示的草圖。
13:24
The surprise of Bilbao was in its context to the city.
234
792000
5000
畢爾巴鄂的驚喜是它與城市地域的互相適應。
13:29
That was the surprise of going across the river,
235
797000
2000
這種驚喜是跨過河流
13:31
of going on the highway around it,
236
799000
2000
連接周圍的高速公路，
13:33
of walking down the street and finding it.
237
801000
3000
沿街行走突然邂逅它的驚喜。
13:36
That was the real surprise of Bilbao.
238
804000
3000
這正是畢爾巴鄂的驚喜所在。
13:39
FG: But you know, Richard,
239
807000
1000
蓋瑞：但是你知道的，理查，
13:40
most architects when they present their work --
240
808000
2000
大多數建築師展示他們的作品時—
13:42
most of the people we know,
241
810000
1000
我們認識他們，
13:43
you get up and you talk about your work,
242
811000
3000
會站起來，談論自己的作品，
13:46
and it's almost like you tell everybody you're a good guy
243
814000
7000
就像告訴所有人他是個好人，
13:53
by saying, "Look, I'm worried about the context,
244
821000
5000
說道，我考慮環境問題，
13:58
I'm worried about the city,
245
826000
2000
我考慮這座城市，
14:00
I'm worried about my client,
246
828000
3000
我為我的雇主著想，
14:03
I worry about budget, that I'm on time."
247
831000
2000
我要考慮預算，我要如期完工。
14:05
Blah, blah, blah and all that stuff.
248
833000
2000
就是這類話。
14:07
And it's like cleansing yourself so that you can ...
249
835000
4000
就像是想要拼命洗清自己
14:11
by saying all that, it means your work is good somehow.
250
839000
7000
好像說了那些，就可以一定程度上說明工作完成得不錯。
14:18
And I think everybody --
251
846000
3000
而且我認為每個人
14:21
I mean that should be a matter of fact, like gravity.
252
849000
3000
我是指應該像對待事實，像重力。
14:24
You're not going to defy gravity.
253
852000
3000
你不可能否認重力的存在。
14:27
You've got to work with the building department.
254
855000
2000
你必須和建築部門合作。
14:29
If you don't meet the budgets, you're not going to get much work.
255
857000
4000
如果預算有限制，你就不能做太多。
14:35
If it leaks --
256
863000
2000
如果發生滲水—
14:37
Bilbao did not leak.
257
865000
2000
畢爾巴鄂可沒有滲水，
14:40
I was so proud.
258
868000
3000
這讓我非常驕傲。
14:43
(Laughter)
259
871000
2000
（笑）
14:45
The MIT project -- they were interviewing me for MIT
260
873000
3000
麻省理工的項目——他們就那個項目面試我，
14:48
and they sent their facilities people to Bilbao.
261
876000
3000
派工作人員去畢爾巴鄂。
14:51
I met them in Bilbao.
262
879000
2000
我在畢爾巴鄂和他們見面。
14:53
They came for three days.
263
881000
2000
他們在那待了三天。
14:55
RSW: This is the computer building?
264
883000
2000
烏爾曼：所以這是棟電腦建設囉？
14:57
FG: Yeah, the computer building.
265
885000
1000
蓋瑞：是的。
14:58
They were there three days and it rained every day
266
886000
2000
他們待的那三天，天天下雨。
15:00
and they kept walking around --
267
888000
2000
他們一直到處轉。
15:02
I noticed they were looking under things
268
890000
2000
我注意到他們總在往底下看，
15:04
and looking for things,
269
892000
2000
在找什麼東西一樣。
15:06
and they wanted to know where the buckets were hidden, you know?
270
894000
4000
你知道嗎，他們想知道水桶都藏在哪兒了？
15:10
People put buckets out ...
271
898000
2000
人們一般把桶擱外邊
15:13
I was clean. There wasn't a bloody leak in the place,
272
901000
2000
我可一身清白！那地方滴水不漏。
15:15
it was just fantastic.
273
903000
2000
太棒了。
15:17
But you've got to --
274
905000
2000
但是你得
15:19
yeah, well up until then every building leaked, so this ...
275
907000
4000
嗯，過些日子什麼房子都會有滲水的毛病，所以說
15:23
(Laughter)
276
911000
5000
（笑）
15:28
RSW: Frank had a sort of ...
277
916000
2000
烏爾曼：弗蘭克有種
15:30
FG: Ask Miriam!
278
918000
1000
蓋瑞：去問米里亞姆
15:31
RW: ... sort of had a fame. His fame was built on that in L.A. for a while.
279
919000
5000
很有名聲——一陣子他在洛杉磯的名望就是靠“不漏水”得來的。
15:36
(Laughter)
280
924000
3000
（笑）
15:39
FG: You've all heard the Frank Lloyd Wright story,
281
927000
3000
蓋瑞：你們都聽說過弗蘭克•勞埃德•賴特的故事。
15:42
when the woman called and said,
282
930000
2000
一個女人打電話說
15:44
"Mr. Wright, I'm sitting on the couch
283
932000
5000
賴特先生，我當時躺在躺椅上，
15:49
and the water's pouring in on my head."
284
937000
2000
水就直接澆在我頭上。
15:51
And he said, "Madam, move your chair."
285
939000
2000
他回答：太太，您挪挪椅子。
15:53
(Laughter)
286
941000
4000
（笑）
15:57
So, some years later I was doing a building,
287
945000
4000
若干年後我做另一個專案，
16:01
a little house on the beach for Norton Simon,
288
949000
2000
為諾頓•西蒙在海灘上建一棟房子。
16:03
and his secretary, who was kind of a hell on wheels type lady,
289
951000
4000
他的秘書，一位嚴肅苛刻的小姐，
16:07
called me and said,
290
955000
2000
打電話給我說：
16:10
"Mr. Simon's sitting at his desk
291
958000
3000
西蒙先生正坐在他的書桌前，
16:13
and the water's coming in on his head."
292
961000
2000
水正落在他的頭頂上。
16:15
And I told her the Frank Lloyd Wright story.
293
963000
2000
我就把弗蘭克•勞埃德•賴特的故事講給她聽。
16:17
RSW: Didn't get a laugh.
294
965000
2000
烏爾曼：她當時肯定沒笑。
16:19
FG: No. Not now either.
295
967000
2000
蓋瑞：是的，就是現在也不會。
16:21
(Laughter)
296
969000
5000
（笑）
16:28
But my point is that ... and I call it the "then what?"
297
976000
4000
我的意思是—我能不能這麼說“那又怎麼樣？”
16:32
OK, you solved all the problems,
298
980000
2000
好吧，你解決了所有問題。
16:34
you did all the stuff, you made nice,
299
982000
3000
你都做了，幹得不錯。
16:37
you loved your clients,
300
985000
2000
你喜歡你的客戶，
16:39
you loved the city,
301
987000
2000
你喜愛這個城市。
16:41
you're a good guy, you're a good person ...
302
989000
2000
你是個好人—一個不錯的傢伙。
16:43
and then what?
303
991000
2000
那又如何？
16:45
What do you bring to it?
304
993000
2000
你到底帶來了什麼呢？
16:47
And I think that's what I've always been interested in,
305
995000
4000
這才是一直以來我的興趣所在。
16:51
is that -- which is a personal kind of expression.
306
999000
7000
就是—一種個人表達，
17:03
Bilbao, I think, shows that you can have
307
1011000
4000
畢爾巴鄂，我認為，就展現出你可以有
17:07
that kind of personal expression
308
1015000
2000
這種個人表達，
17:09
and still touch all the bases that are necessary
309
1017000
4000
而且符合所有必要的條件
17:13
of fitting into the city.
310
1021000
2000
來融入這個城市。
17:15
That's what reminded me of it.
311
1023000
2000
這提醒我想到了它。
17:20
And I think that's the issue, you know;
312
1028000
2000
我認為那才是重點，你知道的。
17:22
it's the "then what" that most clients who hire architects --
313
1030000
4000
就是“那又怎樣”讓大多雇傭了建築師的客戶
17:26
most clients aren't hiring architects for that.
314
1034000
5000
大多客戶並不是為了那個雇傭建築師。
17:31
They're hiring them to get it done, get it on budget,
315
1039000
4000
建築師至是被雇來完成專案，把握好預算
17:35
be polite,
316
1043000
3000
你知道的，以禮相待。
17:38
and they're missing out on the real value of an architect.
317
1046000
11000
他們忽略了建築師的真正價值所在。
17:50
RSW: At a certain point a number of years ago, people --
318
1058000
2000
烏爾曼：在一個時期，一些年前，人們
17:52
when Michael Graves was a fashion, before teapots ...
319
1060000
7000
在邁克爾•格雷夫斯很受歡迎的時候，在茶壺以前
18:00
FG: I did a teapot and nobody bought it.
320
1068000
2000
蓋瑞：我也做過茶壺，但沒人買我的賬。
18:02
(Laughter)
321
1070000
2000
（笑）
18:04
RSW: Did it leak?
322
1072000
2000
烏爾曼：它漏不？
18:06
FG: No.
323
1074000
1000
蓋瑞：不。
18:07
(Laughter)
324
1075000
6000
（笑）
18:13
RSW: ... people wanted a Michael Graves building.
325
1081000
6000
烏爾曼：人們想要邁克爾•格雷夫斯那樣的建築。
18:21
Is that a curse, that people want a Bilbao building?
326
1089000
3000
是不是因為如此，人們都想要畢爾巴鄂那樣的建築物?
18:26
FG: Yeah.
327
1094000
3000
是啊，我接到過這種電話。
18:30
Since Bilbao opened, which is now four, five years,
328
1098000
4000
當畢爾巴鄂開放的時候——大概距現在有四五年了吧，我也記不清了——
18:34
both Krens and I have been called
329
1102000
4000
科倫斯和我都接到很多這樣的電話，
18:39
with at least 100 opportunities --
330
1107000
4000
我也不清楚了，大概至少有100個。
18:43
China, Brazil, other parts of Spain --
331
1111000
7000
中國的，巴西的，還有西班牙其他地方的。
18:50
to come in and do the Bilbao effect.
332
1118000
3000
都想要做畢爾巴鄂那樣的效果。
18:53
And I've met with some of these people.
333
1121000
3000
這些人我也見了一些。
18:56
Usually I say no right away,
334
1124000
2000
通常，我都直接拒絕，
18:58
but some of them come with pedigree
335
1126000
3000
但是有些人把家譜都拿來了，
19:01
and they sound well-intentioned
336
1129000
3000
他們聽上去挺好心。
19:04
and they get you for at least one or two meetings.
337
1132000
5000
他們找到你，開至少一兩次會
19:10
In one case, I flew all the way to Malaga with a team
338
1138000
5000
有一次我和團隊飛到馬拉加去
19:15
because the thing was signed with seals and various
339
1143000
6000
因為邀請函上有各種蓋章和簽名
19:21
very official seals from the city,
340
1149000
6000
你知道的——非常官方的城市簽章
19:27
and that they wanted me to come and do a building in their port.
341
1155000
4000
他們想讓我在港口建一座建築。
19:31
I asked them what kind of building it was.
342
1159000
2000
我問他們想要什麼樣的
19:33
"When you get here we'll explain it." Blah, blah, blah.
343
1161000
3000
“你來了我們就會告訴你的——”諸如此類的話
19:36
So four of us went.
344
1164000
3000
我們四個人一起去了
19:39
And they took us -- they put us up in a great hotel
345
1167000
5000
他們接待了我們，安排了非常好的酒店。
19:44
and we were looking over the bay,
346
1172000
3000
然後帶我們去看那個海灣。
19:47
and then they took us in a boat out in the water
347
1175000
3000
他們帶我們乘船出海
19:50
and showed us all these sights in the harbor.
348
1178000
3000
給我們看海港的景觀
19:53
Each one was more beautiful than the other.
349
1181000
5000
一個比一個美麗
19:59
And then we were going to have lunch with the mayor
350
1187000
4000
然後我們要去和市長一起吃午餐
20:03
and we were going to have dinner with
351
1191000
2000
再和馬拉加的重量級人士
20:05
the most important people in Malaga.
352
1193000
4000
一起吃晚餐
20:09
Just before going to lunch with the mayor,
353
1197000
3000
就在去和市長午餐之前
20:13
we went to the harbor commissioner.
354
1201000
2000
我們去見了港口的行政長官
20:15
It was a table as long as this carpet
355
1203000
3000
那張桌子能有這塊地毯長
20:18
and the harbor commissioner was here,
356
1206000
2000
行政官就坐那兒
20:20
and I was here, and my guys.
357
1208000
2000
我們四個在這裏
20:22
We sat down, and we had a drink of water
358
1210000
3000
我們坐下，喝了點水
20:25
and everybody was quiet.
359
1213000
2000
每個人都很安靜
20:27
And the guy looked at me and said,
360
1215000
2000
那個人看著我，說
20:29
"Now what can I do for you, Mr. Gehry?"
361
1217000
3000
“我能為你做些什麼，蓋瑞先生？”
20:32
(Laughter)
362
1220000
4000
（笑）
20:36
RSW: Oh, my God.
363
1224000
2000
烏爾曼：哦，老天
20:38
FG: So, I got up.
364
1226000
2000
蓋瑞：于是我就站了起來
20:40
I said to my team,
365
1228000
2000
跟我的團隊說
20:42
"Let's get out of here."
366
1230000
2000
咱們撤吧
20:44
We stood up, we walked out.
367
1232000
1000
我們站起來，走了出去。
20:45
They followed -- the guy that dragged us there followed us and he said,
368
1233000
3000
他們跟著——那個人一路跟著我們，然後說
20:48
"You mean you're not going to have lunch with the mayor?"
369
1236000
2000
您難道不去和市長吃午餐了嗎？
20:50
I said, "Nope."
370
1238000
2000
我說：“不了。”
20:52
"You're not going to have dinner at all?"
371
1240000
2000
您也不吃晚餐了嗎?
20:54
They just brought us there to hustle this group,
372
1242000
4000
他們就只是帶我們去那，把這夥人湊在一起，
20:58
you know, to create a project.
373
1246000
2000
你知道的，創造出一個計劃。
21:00
And we get a lot of that.
374
1248000
2000
這樣的还有很多。
21:05
Luckily, I'm old enough that
375
1253000
3000
還好我已經夠老的了
21:08
I can complain I can't travel.
376
1256000
3000
我可以把不能長途旅行當藉口。
21:11
(Laughter)
377
1259000
2000
（笑）
21:13
I don't have my own plane yet.
378
1261000
3000
我還沒有私人飛機。
21:18
RSW: Well, I'm going to wind this up and wind up the meeting
379
1266000
3000
烏爾曼：我要收收尾了，差不多結束這次談話
21:21
because it's been very long.
380
1269000
2000
因為它已經夠長的了
21:23
But let me just say a couple words.
381
1271000
2000
请允许我說兩句
21:25
FG: Can I say something?
382
1273000
2000
蓋瑞：我能說兩句嗎？
21:28
Are you going to talk about me or you?
383
1276000
3000
你是想說我還是你自己啊？
21:31
(Laughter)
384
1279000
3000
（笑）
21:34
(Applause)
385
1282000
3000
（鼓掌♫）
21:37
RSW: Once a shit, always a shit!
386
1285000
3000
江山易改本性難移
21:42
FG: Because I want to get a standing ovation like everybody, so ...
387
1290000
3000
蓋瑞：我是想體驗一下站起來接受掌聲的感覺，所以
21:45
RSW: You're going to get one! You're going to get one!
388
1293000
2000
烏爾曼：肯定有機會的嘛！
21:47
(Laughter)
389
1295000
1000
（笑）
21:48
I'm going to make it for you!
390
1296000
2000
烏爾曼：我要給你鼓個掌先！
21:50
FG: No, no. Wait a minute!
391
1298000
1000
蓋瑞：不，不，等等！
21:51
(Applause)
392
1299000
2000
（鼓掌♫）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Frank Gehry - ArchitectA living legend, Frank Gehry has forged his own language of architecture, creating astonishing buildings all over the world, such as the Guggenheim in Bilbao, the Walt Disney Concert Hall in LA, and Manhattan's new IAC building.
Why you should listen
Frank Gehry is one of the world's most influential architects. His designs for the likes of the Guggenheim Museum in Bilbao and the Walt Disney Concert Hall in LA are bold statements that have imposed a new aesthetic of architecture on the world at large, enlivening streetscapes and creating new destinations. Gehry has extended his vision beyond brick-and-mortar too, collaborating with artists such as Claes Oldenberg and Richard Serra, and designing watches, teapots and a line of jewelry for Tiffany & Co.
Now in his 80s, Gehry refuses to slow down or compromise his fierce vision: He and his team at Gehry Partners are working on a $4 billion development of the Atlantic Yards in Brooklyn, and a spectacular Guggenheim museum in Abu Dhabi, United Arab Emirates, which interprets local architecture traditions into a language all his own. Incorporating local architectural motifs without simply paying lip service to Middle Eastern culture, the building bears all the hallmarks of a classic Gehry design.
Frank Gehry | Speaker | TED.com