TED Salon Doha Debates
Eve Pearlman: How to lead a conversation between people who disagree
伊芙•皮尔曼: 如何让有分歧的人开展对话
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在这个分崩离析的世界里，我们如何用欣赏细微差别、好奇心和尊重来进行高难度对话？资深记者伊芙•皮尔曼(Eve Pearlman)介绍了“对话新闻”(dialogue journalism)的项目。在这个项目中，记者深入社会和政治分歧的核心，去支持不同意见的人之间的讨论。看看当来自加州的25名自由派人士和来自阿拉巴马州的25名保守派人士聚在一起讨论有争议的问题时发生了什么。“跨越分歧的真正联系：这是我们的民主迫切需要的一剂强心针，”皮尔曼说。
Eve Pearlman - Journalist
Eve Pearlman is committed to the work of reinventing and reinvigorating journalistic practice. Full bio
Eve Pearlman is committed to the work of reinventing and reinvigorating journalistic practice. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:13
So in the run-up to the 2016 election,
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在2016年大选的准备阶段，
我和大多数人一样，看到公众空间中
00:16
I was, like most of us,
watching the rise in discord and vitriol
watching the rise in discord and vitriol
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越来越多的不和，刻薄和肮脏。
00:20
and nastiness in our public spaces.
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这是两极分化的疯狂升级。
00:23
It was this crazy uptick in polarization.
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既令人沮丧又让人苦恼。
00:26
It was both disheartening and distressing.
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00:30
And so I started thinking,
with a fellow journalist, Jeremy Hay,
with a fellow journalist, Jeremy Hay,
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于是，我开始和一位名叫
杰里米·海伊的记者
杰里米·海伊的记者
00:33
about how we might practice
our craft differently.
our craft differently.
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一起思考如何用不同的方式
应用我们的技巧。
应用我们的技巧。
00:36
How we might go to the heart of divides,
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如何才能像记者们经常做的那样，
涉足分歧的中心，
00:39
to places of conflict,
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到达冲突的地方。
00:40
like journalists always have,
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而一旦到了那里，
做一些真正不同的事情。
做一些真正不同的事情。
00:41
but then, once there,
do something really different.
do something really different.
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00:46
We knew we wanted to take
the core tools of our craft --
the core tools of our craft --
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我们知道我们想要用核心技巧——
00:49
careful vetting of information,
diligent research, curiosity,
diligent research, curiosity,
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认真审查资料，勤奋研究，充满好奇，
对公共利益的承诺——
00:53
a commitment to serving the public good --
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去服务我们的民主——
00:55
to serving our democracy --
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去做新的事情。
00:56
and do something new.
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00:58
And so we mapped out this process,
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于是我们想出了这个项目，
我们称之为对话新闻，
01:00
what we call dialogue journalism,
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去触及社会和政治分歧的核心，
01:02
for going to the heart
of social and political divides,
of social and political divides,
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一旦到了那一步，
就可以在对立的两派之间
就可以在对立的两派之间
01:05
and then, once there, building
journalism-supported conversations
journalism-supported conversations
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01:09
between people on opposite sides
of polarizing issues.
of polarizing issues.
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建立起由新闻业支持的的对话。
01:15
But how actually to do this
in a world that's so divided,
in a world that's so divided,
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但如何在如此分裂，
裂痕如此之深的世界中
裂痕如此之深的世界中
去做这样的事？
01:19
so deeply divided --
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当我们所处的世界
01:20
when we live in a world
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堂兄弟姐妹和他们的
父母不彼此交谈，
父母不彼此交谈，
01:22
in which cousins and aunts and uncles
can't talk to one another,
can't talk to one another,
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当我们常常生活在隔离
和不同的新闻生态系统中，
和不同的新闻生态系统中，
01:25
when we often live in separate
and distinct news ecosystems,
and distinct news ecosystems,
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01:29
and when we reflexively
and habitually malign and dismiss
and habitually malign and dismiss
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并且当我们反射性地、习惯性地诋毁
和排斥那些与我们意见相左的人？
01:33
those with whom we disagree?
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01:36
But we wanted to try.
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但我们仍想要试试。
于是在2016年大选后，
01:38
And so right after the 2016 election,
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在选举和就职典礼之间那段时间，
01:40
in that time between the election
and the inauguration,
and the inauguration,
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我们和阿拉巴马媒体集团合作，
做了一些非常不同的事情。
做了一些非常不同的事情。
01:44
we partnered with the Alabama Media Group
to do something really different.
to do something really different.
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我们从阿拉巴马带来了
25位川普的支持者，
25位川普的支持者，
01:48
We brought 25 Trump supporters
from Alabama together
from Alabama together
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01:51
in conversation with
25 Clinton supporters from California.
25 Clinton supporters from California.
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与来自加州的25位
希拉里·克林顿的支持者进行对话。
希拉里·克林顿的支持者进行对话。
01:55
And we brought them together
in a closed, moderated Facebook group
in a closed, moderated Facebook group
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我们把他们放到一个封闭的
有管理员的Facebook群组上，
有管理员的Facebook群组上，
01:59
that we kept open for a month.
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观察了一个月。
02:03
What we wanted to do
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我们想要做的是
给他们一个场所，
保持真诚的好奇和开放态度。
保持真诚的好奇和开放态度。
02:04
was to give them a place to engage
with genuine curiosity and openness.
with genuine curiosity and openness.
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02:08
And we wanted to support them
in building relationships,
in building relationships,
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并且我们想要帮助他们建立关系，
不仅在他们之间，并且和我们记者之间。
02:11
not just with each other
but with us as journalists.
but with us as journalists.
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02:14
And then we wanted to supply
facts and information --
facts and information --
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然后我们想要提供事实和信息，
让他们可以节接受和思考，
02:17
facts and information that they could
actually receive and process
actually receive and process
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并可以用来增强他们的谈资。
02:21
and use to undergird their conversations.
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02:25
And so as a prelude to this conversation,
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作为这次对话的引子，
02:27
the first step in what we call
dialogue journalism,
dialogue journalism,
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这个我们称之为对话新闻的第一步，
我们询问他们认为对方会如何看待他们。
02:30
we asked what they thought
the other side thought of them.
the other side thought of them.
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当我们问阿拉巴马的川普支持者
02:35
So when we asked
the Trump supporters from Alabama
the Trump supporters from Alabama
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加州的希拉里支持者如何看待他们时，
02:39
what they thought the Clinton supporters
in California thought of them,
in California thought of them,
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他们是这样说的：
02:42
this is some of what they said.
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“他们认为我们是狂热的宗教信徒。”
02:44
"They think we are religious
Bible thumpers."
Bible thumpers."
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“我们是落后愚蠢的乡巴佬。”
02:46
"That we're backwards
and hickish, and stupid."
and hickish, and stupid."
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02:50
"They think that we all have
Confederate flags in our yards,
Confederate flags in our yards,
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“他们认为我们的院子里
都是南方联盟的旗帜，
都是南方联盟的旗帜，
我们是种族主义者，
性别歧视者，没受过教育。”
性别歧视者，没受过教育。”
02:53
that we're racist
and sexist and uneducated."
and sexist and uneducated."
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“他们觉得在尘土飞扬的马路上
经常能看到赤脚和怀孕的人。”
经常能看到赤脚和怀孕的人。”
02:55
"They think we're barefoot and pregnant,
with dirt driveways."
with dirt driveways."
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02:59
"And they think we're all prissy butts
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“他们认为我们都是乡巴佬，
穿着箍裙在棉花田中四处走动。”
03:01
and that we walk around in hoop skirts
with cotton fields in the background."
with cotton fields in the background."
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然后我们对加州的人问了同样的问题：
03:05
And then we asked that same question
of the Californians:
of the Californians:
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“你们认为阿拉巴马的人会怎么看你们？”
03:07
"What do you think
the Alabamians think about you?"
the Alabamians think about you?"
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03:10
And they said this:
"That we're crazy, liberal Californians."
"That we're crazy, liberal Californians."
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他们是这么说的：
“我们是疯狂的，自由的加州人。”
“我们是疯狂的，自由的加州人。”
“我们不爱国。”
03:14
"That we're not patriotic."
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“我们势利，我们是所谓的精英。”
03:15
"We're snobby and we're elitist."
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“我们不信神，
我们对孩子放任自由。”
我们对孩子放任自由。”
03:17
"We're godless and we're permissive
with our children."
with our children."
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03:20
"And that we're focused
on our careers, not our family."
on our careers, not our family."
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“我们关注工作，而不是家庭。”
“我们是精英主义者、空想家、
03:23
"That we're elitist,
pie-in-the-sky intellectuals,
pie-in-the-sky intellectuals,
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有钱人、全食主义者，
03:25
rich people, Whole Foods-eating,
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非常脱节。”
03:28
very out of touch."
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03:31
So by asking questions like this
at the start of every conversation
at the start of every conversation
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所以通过在每次对话前
问这样的问题，
问这样的问题，
通过识别和分享刻板印象，
03:35
and by identifying
and sharing stereotypes,
and sharing stereotypes,
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我们发现人们——两边的人——
03:38
we find that people --
people on all sides --
people on all sides --
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开始看到他们所携带的印象
往往是简单且刻薄的。
往往是简单且刻薄的。
03:40
begin to see the simplistic and often
mean-spirited caricatures they carry.
mean-spirited caricatures they carry.
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03:46
And in that --
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在这之后，
我们开始了真正的对话。
03:47
after that, we can move
into a process of genuine conversation.
into a process of genuine conversation.
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03:52
So in the two years since that launch --
California/Alabama Project --
California/Alabama Project --
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在加州/阿拉巴马项目发起的两年后——
我们继续与全国各地的媒体组织
03:56
we've gone on to host
dialogues and partnerships
dialogues and partnerships
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举办对话和开展合作。
03:58
with media organizations
across the country.
across the country.
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他们一直在讨论一些最有争议的话题：
04:01
And they've been about
some of our most contentious issues:
some of our most contentious issues:
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枪支，移民，种族，教育。
04:03
guns, immigration, race, education.
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04:07
And what we found,
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我们发现，
很明显，
04:09
remarkably,
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真正的对话实际上是可能的。
04:10
is that real dialogue is in fact possible.
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当有机会按这样的组织结构去做时，
04:13
And that when given a chance
and structure around doing so,
and structure around doing so,
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很多，虽然不是全部，
但我们的很多公民
但我们的很多公民
04:16
many, not all,
but many of our fellow citizens
but many of our fellow citizens
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非常渴望彼此互动。
04:19
are eager to engage with the other.
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04:24
Too often journalists
have sharpened divides
have sharpened divides
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记者常常激化分歧，
以因为戏剧化，迎合读者口味
或做出一些主观臆断更吸引眼球。
或做出一些主观臆断更吸引眼球。
04:27
in the name of drama or readership
or in service to our own views.
or in service to our own views.
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04:31
And too often we've gone to each side
quoting a partisan voice on one side
quoting a partisan voice on one side
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我们常常站在两派的立场上，
一边引用一个党派的声音，
一边引用一个党派的声音，
另一边引用另一个党派的声音，
04:35
and a partisan voice on the other
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并加上轶事式的开场和精辟的结束语，
04:37
with a telling anecdotal lead
and a pithy final quote,
and a pithy final quote,
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所有的读者都热衷于挖掘偏见。
04:40
all of which readers
are keen to mine for bias.
are keen to mine for bias.
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04:43
But our dialogue-based process
has a slower pace and a different center.
has a slower pace and a different center.
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但是，我们基于对话的过程
节奏较慢，而且主题繁杂。
节奏较慢，而且主题繁杂。
04:49
And our work is guided by the principle
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我们的工作是基于这个原则：
直面差异的对话对民主很关键，
04:52
that dialogue across difference
is essential to a functioning democracy,
is essential to a functioning democracy,
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新闻业和记者可以发挥多方面的作用
04:55
and that journalism and journalists
have a multifaceted role to play
have a multifaceted role to play
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进行支持。
05:00
in supporting that.
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05:03
So how do we work?
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那么我们究竟是如何运作的？
05:05
At every stage,
we're as transparent as possible
we're as transparent as possible
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在每个环节，我们都尽可能地
公开我们的方法和我们的动机。
05:08
about our methods and our motives.
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在每个环节，我们都抽时间
回答人们的问题——
回答人们的问题——
05:10
At every stage, we take time
to answer people's questions --
to answer people's questions --
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解释我们为什么做，在做什么。
05:13
explain why we're doing what we're doing.
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05:16
We tell people that it's not a trap:
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我们告诉人们，不要担心：
这里没人会说你很蠢，
05:18
no one's there to tell you you're stupid,
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这里没人会说你的经历不重要。
05:20
no one's there to tell you
your experience doesn't matter.
your experience doesn't matter.
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05:24
And we always ask
for a really different sort of behavior,
for a really different sort of behavior,
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我们总是要求一种完全不同的行为，
避开习惯性的反身谩骂，
05:27
a repatterning away
from the reflexive name-calling,
from the reflexive name-calling,
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这我们的语境中是如此根深蒂固，
05:30
so entrenched in our discourse
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05:31
that most of us, on all sides,
don't even notice it anymore.
don't even notice it anymore.
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以至于所有阵营中的
大多数人甚至都没有注意到它。
大多数人甚至都没有注意到它。
05:37
So people often come
into our conversations a bit angrily.
into our conversations a bit angrily.
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人们参与我们的对话时
往往都有些气愤。
往往都有些气愤。
他们往往带着这样的口吻：
“你怎么会相信张三？”
“你怎么会相信张三？”
05:41
They say things like,
"How can you believe X?"
"How can you believe X?"
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和“你怎么会相信那种鬼话？”
05:43
and "How can you read Y?"
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05:45
and "Can you believe that this happened?"
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以及“太让人难以置信了！”
05:49
But generally, in this miracle
that delights us every time,
that delights us every time,
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但总的来说，在这个每次
都让我们兴奋不已的奇迹中，
都让我们兴奋不已的奇迹中，
人们开始介绍他们自己。
05:52
people begin to introduce themselves.
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他们开始解释自己是谁，来自哪里，
05:54
And they begin to explain
who they are and where they come from,
who they are and where they come from,
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并且开始相互问问题。
05:57
and they begin to ask
questions of one another.
questions of one another.
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慢慢的，随着时间推移，
人们循环参与不同的话题，
人们循环参与不同的话题，
06:00
And slowly, over time, people circle back
again and again to difficult topics,
again and again to difficult topics,
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每次都会更富有同理心，
抓住更多的细微差异，
抓住更多的细微差异，
06:04
each time with a little more empathy,
a little more nuance,
a little more nuance,
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更好奇。
06:07
a little more curiosity.
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06:09
And our journalists and moderators
work really hard to support this
work really hard to support this
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我们的记者和主持人在努力提供支持，
因为这不是辩论，不是战争，
06:13
because it's not a debate,
it's not a battle,
it's not a battle,
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这不是周日早间脱口秀。
06:15
it's not a Sunday morning talk show.
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06:18
It's not the flinging of talking points.
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不是卖弄词藻，
更不应该用堆满表情包和动图
06:20
It's not the stacking of memes and gifs
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或者带标题的文章来证明自己的观点。
06:22
or articles with headlines
that prove a point.
that prove a point.
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这不是用问题陷阱
赢得政治胜利的套路。
赢得政治胜利的套路。
06:25
And it's not about scoring
political victories with question traps.
political victories with question traps.
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06:31
So what we've learned is that our state
of discord is bad for everyone.
of discord is bad for everyone.
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所以我们了解到，不和谐状态
对所有人都是坏事。
对所有人都是坏事。
这种状态让所有人都感到沮丧。
06:36
It is a deeply unhappy state of being.
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06:39
And people tell us this again and again.
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人们一再告诉我们这点。
他们说，他们很感激有机会以尊重、
06:42
They say they appreciate the chance
to engage respectfully,
to engage respectfully,
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好奇和开放的态度参与进来，
06:45
with curiosity and with openness,
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06:47
and that they're glad and relieved
for a chance to put down their arms.
for a chance to put down their arms.
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他们为有机会放下戒备
而感到高兴和宽慰。
而感到高兴和宽慰。
06:52
And so we do our work in direct challenge
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因此，我们的工作是直接挑战
我国内目前的政治气候，
06:54
to the political climate
in our country right now,
in our country right now,
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06:57
and we do it knowing
that it is difficult, challenging work
that it is difficult, challenging work
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我们知道去举办和支持不同背景的人对话
这是一项困难而有挑战性的工作。
07:00
to hold and support people
in opposing backgrounds in conversation.
in opposing backgrounds in conversation.
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07:05
And we do it knowing
democracy depends on our ability
democracy depends on our ability
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我们知道民主取决于我们
一起解决共同问题的能力。
07:08
to address our shared problems together.
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07:11
And we do this work by putting community
at the heart of our journalistic process,
at the heart of our journalistic process,
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我们做这个工作是通过把社群
放在我们新闻过程的中心，
放在我们新闻过程的中心，
通过把自我先放在一边，
先倾听，认真倾听，
先倾听，认真倾听，
07:15
by putting our egos to the side
to listen first, to listen deeply,
to listen first, to listen deeply,
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07:19
to listen around
and through our own biases,
and through our own biases,
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倾听周围的声音，通过我们的偏见，
我们自己的思维习惯，
07:22
our own habits of thought,
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并且支持别人也这样做。
07:23
and to support others in doing the same.
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07:27
And we do this work
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我们在行动的时候就知道
新闻业面对这个问题一直很挣扎，
07:29
knowing that journalism
as an institution is struggling,
as an institution is struggling,
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它一直需要扮演，
并且要继续扮演
并且要继续扮演
07:31
and that it has always had a role to play
and will continue to have a role to play
and will continue to have a role to play
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支持交换意见和观点的角色。
07:35
in supporting the exchange
of ideas and views.
of ideas and views.
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07:40
For many of the participants
in our groups,
in our groups,
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对我们队伍中的许多参与者而言，
这产生了持续的影响。
07:42
there are lasting reverberations.
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很多人成为了Facebook的好友
和现实中的好友，
和现实中的好友，
07:44
Many people have become Facebook friends
and in-real-life friends too,
and in-real-life friends too,
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跨越了政治的边界。
07:48
across political lines.
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在我们关掉第一个川普/希拉里项目后，
07:49
After we closed that first
Trump/Clinton project,
Trump/Clinton project,
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大约2/3的女性，开设了
她们自己的Facebook群组，
她们自己的Facebook群组，
07:53
about two-thirds of the women went on
to form their own Facebook group
to form their own Facebook group
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并且她们从每个州选了个主持人
07:56
and they chose a moderator from each state
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去继续讨论分歧和具有挑战的问题。
07:58
and they continue to talk
about difficult and challenging issues.
about difficult and challenging issues.
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人们一次又一次地告诉我们，
他们很感激有这个机会
他们很感激有这个机会
08:02
People tell us again and again
that they're grateful for the opportunity
that they're grateful for the opportunity
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成为这个项目中的一部分，
08:05
to be a part of this work,
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很庆幸知道另一边的人并非不可理喻，
08:07
grateful to know that people
on the other side aren't crazy,
on the other side aren't crazy,
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很高兴他们有机会能够跟
08:10
grateful that they've had a chance
to connect with people
to connect with people
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可能永远都不会去交流的人建立联系。
08:13
they wouldn't have otherwise talked to.
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08:16
A lot of what we've seen and learned,
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尽管我们称自己为宇宙飞船媒体，
但我们看到和学到的很多东西，
08:18
despite the fact that we call
ourselves Spaceship Media,
ourselves Spaceship Media,
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并不是什么高深的学问。
08:21
is not at all rocket science.
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如果你对人出言不逊，如果你给他们
贴上标签，如果你侮辱他们，
贴上标签，如果你侮辱他们，
08:22
If you call people names,
if you label them, if you insult them,
if you label them, if you insult them,
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他们就会倾向于对你置之不理。
08:25
they are not inclined to listen to you.
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08:28
Snark doesn't help, shame doesn't help,
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恶声恶语帮不上忙，羞耻感没有用，
态度傲慢无更是雪上加霜。
08:30
condescension doesn't help.
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08:33
Genuine communication
takes practice and effort
takes practice and effort
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真正的沟通需要练习、努力、
克制和自我觉悟。
08:37
and restraint and self-awareness.
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08:40
There isn't an algorithm
to solve where we are.
to solve where we are.
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没有一个算法可以解决我们现在的处境。
08:44
Because real human connection
is in fact real human connection.
is in fact real human connection.
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因为真正的人际关系就是人际关系。
08:49
So lead with curiosity,
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所以以好奇为指引，
强调讨论而非争执，
08:51
emphasize discussion not debate,
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避免坐井观天，
08:52
get out of your silo,
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08:56
because real connection
across difference ...
across difference ...
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因为跨越分歧的真正连接——
正是我们民主迫切需要的一剂强心针。
08:59
this is a salve
that our democracy sorely needs.
that our democracy sorely needs.
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09:04
Thank you.
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谢谢。
（鼓掌）
09:05
(Applause)
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ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Eve Pearlman - JournalistEve Pearlman is committed to the work of reinventing and reinvigorating journalistic practice.
Why you should listen
Eve Pearlman is a journalistic innovator, public speaker, writer and thought leader. A lifelong journalist with a deep commitment to serving and building communities, she cofounded Spaceship Media in 2016 with a mission to reduce polarization, build communities and restore trust in journalism.
Earlier in her career, Pearlman was a reporter, blogger, columnist and social media strategist. She is the veteran of two startups: Patch, AOL's effort at serving local news markets; and State, a London-based social media platform connecting people around shared interests and views. She holds a bachelor's from Cornell University and a master's in journalism from Northwestern University.
Eve Pearlman | Speaker | TED.com