TEDSalon Berlin 2014
Hubertus Knabe: The dark secrets of a surveillance state
Hubertus Knabe: Temne skrivnosti države nadzora
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Obiščite globoki temni svet vzhodnonemške državne varnostne službe, znane po imenu Stasi. Stasi je z edinstveno močjo vohunjenja za svojimi državljani do padca berlinskega zidu leta 1989 obvladoval sistem nadzora in psihološkega pritiska, ki je državo desetletja držal v šahu. Hubertus Knabe, za katerim so tudi vohunili, preučuje Stasi; razkril bo nekaj neverjetnih podrobnosti o padcu države nadzora ter pokazal, kako enostavno je bilo pripraviti človeka do tega, da je škodil svojemu sosedu.
Hubertus Knabe - Historian
Hubertus Knabe studies the history of torture, oppression and surveillance in former East Germany. Full bio
Hubertus Knabe studies the history of torture, oppression and surveillance in former East Germany. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
This year, Germany is celebrating
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Nemčija letos praznuje
00:14
the 25th anniversary of the peaceful revolution
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25. obletnico mirne revolucije
v Vzhodni Nemčiji.
v Vzhodni Nemčiji.
00:17
in East Germany.
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00:19
In 1989, the Communist regime was moved away,
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Leta 1989 je komunistični režim padel,
00:23
the Berlin Wall came down, and one year later,
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padel je berlinski zid in leto kasneje
00:27
the German Democratic Republic, the GDR,
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se je Nemška demokratična republika,
NDR na vzhodu
NDR na vzhodu
00:31
in the East was unified
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združila z Zvezno republiko Nemčijo,
na zahodu.
na zahodu.
00:33
with the Federal Republic of Germany in the West
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00:35
to found today's Germany.
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To je danes Nemčija.
00:39
Among many other things, Germany inherited
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Med drugim je Nemčija podedovala
00:42
the archives of the East German secret police,
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tudi arhive vzhodnonemške
tajne policije,
tajne policije,
00:47
known as the Stasi.
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znane kot Stasi.
00:50
Only two years after its dissolution,
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Že dve leti po njeni ukinitvi
so dokumenti postali javno dostopni
so dokumenti postali javno dostopni
00:52
its documents were opened to the public,
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00:56
and historians such as me started
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in zgodovinarji smo jih začeli preučevati,
00:59
to study these documents
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01:01
to learn more about how the GDR surveillance state
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da bi izvedeli, kako
je deloval nadzor v NDR.
je deloval nadzor v NDR.
01:05
functioned.
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01:07
Perhaps you have watched the movie
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Morda ste videli film
01:10
"The Lives of Others."
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"Življenje drugih".
01:12
This movie made the Stasi known worldwide,
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Stasi je zaradi njega svetovno znan
01:17
and as we live in an age where words
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in ker živimo v svetu,
v katerem so besede,
v katerem so besede,
01:19
such as "surveillance" or "wiretapping"
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kot sta "nadzor" in
"prisluškovanje"
"prisluškovanje"
01:23
are on the front pages of newspapers,
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na prvih straneh časopisov,
01:25
I would like to speak about how the Stasi
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bi vam rad povedal nekaj o tem,
kako je Stasi sploh deloval.
01:28
really worked.
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01:31
At the beginning, let's have a short look
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Najprej si poglejmo
kratko zgodovino Stasija,
kratko zgodovino Stasija,
01:33
at the history of the Stasi,
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01:35
because it's really important for understanding
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saj je pomembna za
razumevanje njegovega koncepta.
razumevanje njegovega koncepta.
01:38
its self-conception.
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01:41
Its origins are located in Russia.
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Izhaja iz Rusije.
01:44
In 1917, the Russian Communists founded
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Leta 1917 so komunisti ustanovili
Izredno vserusko komisijo
Izredno vserusko komisijo
01:46
the Emergency Commission for Combating
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za bojevanje proti kontrarevoluciji
in sabotažam,
in sabotažam,
01:48
Counter-Revolution and Sabotage,
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01:51
shortly Cheka.
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na kratko: Čeka.
01:53
It was led by Felix Dzerzhinsky.
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Vodil jo je Feliks Dzeržinski.
01:56
The Cheka was an instrument of the Communists
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Čeka je bila orodje,
s katerim so komunisti utrdili režim
skozi teroriziranje prebivalstva
skozi teroriziranje prebivalstva
02:00
to establish their regime by terrorizing the population
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02:03
and executing their enemies.
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ter likvidacije sovražnikov.
02:06
It evolved later into the well-known KGB.
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Kasneje se je razvila v vsem znano KGB.
02:12
The Cheka was the idol of the Stasi officers.
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Čeka je bila idol za Stasijeve uslužbence.
02:15
They called themselves Chekists,
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Tudi sami sebe so imenovali Čekisti,
02:18
and even the emblem was very similar,
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celo emblema sta si podobna,
02:21
as you can see here.
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kot lahko vidite.
02:24
In fact, the secret police of Russia
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Pravzraprav je tajna ruska policija
ustvarila in vodila Stasi.
ustvarila in vodila Stasi.
02:28
was the creator and instructor of the Stasi.
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02:31
When the Red Army occupied East Germany in 1945,
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Ko je leta 1945 Rdeča armada
okupirala Vzhodno Nemčijo,
okupirala Vzhodno Nemčijo,
02:35
it immediately expanded there,
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se je takoj razširila po območju
02:37
and soon it started to train the German Communists
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in kmalu začela nemške komuniste
usposabljati za vzpon lastne tajne policije.
usposabljati za vzpon lastne tajne policije.
02:41
to build up their own secret police.
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02:44
By the way, in this hall where we are now,
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Veste, tu, kjer se nahajamo zdaj,
02:47
the ruling party of the GDR was founded in 1946.
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je bila leta 1946
ustanovljena vodilna stranka NDR .
ustanovljena vodilna stranka NDR .
02:53
Five years later, the Stasi was established,
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Pet let kasneje je nastal Stasi
02:56
and step by step, the dirty job of oppression
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in postopoma prevzel
umazano delo zatiranja.
umazano delo zatiranja.
02:59
was handed over to it.
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03:02
For instance, the central jail
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Centralne zapore za politične zapornike,
03:04
for political prisoners,
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03:05
which was established by the Russians,
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ki so jih ustanovili Rusi,
03:08
was taken over by the Stasi
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je denimo prevzel Stasi
03:10
and used until the end of Communism.
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in jih uporabljal do zatona komunizma.
03:14
You see it here.
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Vidite tule.
03:15
At the beginning, every important step
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Na začetku so vsak
pomemben korak nadzorovali Rusi.
pomemben korak nadzorovali Rusi.
03:19
took place under the attendance of the Russians.
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03:23
But the Germans are known to be very effective,
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A Nemci so znani po svoji učinkovitosti
03:26
so the Stasi grew very quickly,
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in Stasi je hitro rasel;
03:29
and already in 1953, it had more employees
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že leta 1953 je imel več uslužbencev
kot jih je imel Gestapo,
kot jih je imel Gestapo,
03:33
than the Gestapo had,
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03:34
the secret police of Nazi Germany.
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tajna policija nacistične Nemčije.
03:37
The number doubled in each decade.
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Število se je vsakih deset let
podvojilo.
podvojilo.
03:40
In 1989, more than 90,000 employees
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Leta 1989 je za Stasi delalo
preko 90,000 uslužbencev.
preko 90,000 uslužbencev.
03:43
worked for the Stasi.
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03:45
This meant that one employee
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Tako je bil en uslužbenec
odgovoren za 180 prebivalcev,
odgovoren za 180 prebivalcev,
03:47
was responsible for 180 inhabitants,
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03:50
which was really unique in the world.
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kar je nekaj edinstvenega v svetu.
03:54
At the top of this tremendous apparatus,
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Na vrhu tega ogromnega aparata
je bil samo Erich Mielke.
je bil samo Erich Mielke.
03:57
there was one man, Erich Mielke.
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04:01
He ruled the Ministry of State Security
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Več kot trideset let je vodil
Ministrstvo za državno varnost.
Ministrstvo za državno varnost.
04:03
for more than 30 years.
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04:05
He was a scrupulous functionary —
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Bil je utelešenje uslužbenca -
04:08
in his past, he killed two policemen
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v preteklosti je nedaleč od tu
ubil dva policista -
ubil dva policista -
04:11
not far away from here —
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04:13
who in fact personalized the Stasi.
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ki je poosebljal Stasi.
04:17
But what was so exceptional about the Stasi?
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A kaj je bilo tako posebnega na Stasiju?
04:21
Foremost, it was its enormous power,
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Predvsem njegova ogromna moč,
04:24
because it united different functions
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saj je združeval različne funkcije
na enem mestu.
na enem mestu.
04:28
in one organization.
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04:30
First of all, the Stasi
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Stasi je bil predvsem obveščevalna služba.
04:32
was an intelligence service.
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04:35
It used all the imaginable instruments
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Uporabljal je vse možne načine
za tajno pridobivanje informacij,
za tajno pridobivanje informacij,
04:38
for getting information secretly,
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04:40
such as informers, or tapping phones,
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kot so ovaduhi,
prisluškovanje telefonom,
prisluškovanje telefonom,
04:43
as you can see it on the picture here.
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kot vidite na tej sliki.
04:46
And it was not only active in East Germany,
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Ni deloval samo v Vzhodni Nemčiji,
04:49
but all over the world.
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temveč po vsem svetu.
04:52
Secondly, the Stasi was a secret police.
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Poleg tega je bil Stasi tajna policija.
04:56
It could stop people on the street
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Ljudi je lahko ustavil na ulici
04:58
and arrest them in its own prisons.
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ter jih zadržal v svojih zaporih.
05:03
Thirdly, the Stasi worked
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Stasi je bil tudi
nekakšno javno tožilstvo.
nekakšno javno tožilstvo.
05:04
as a kind of public prosecutor.
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05:07
It had the right to open preliminary investigations
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Lahko je izvajal predhodne preiskave
05:10
and to interrogate people officially.
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ter uradno zasliševal ljudi.
05:14
Last but not least,
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In konec koncev
05:16
the Stasi had its own armed forces.
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je Stasi imel svoje oborožene sile.
05:20
More than 11,000 soldiers were serving
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Preko 11,000 vojakov je služilo
05:22
in its so-called Guards Regiment.
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v t.i. stražnem polku.
05:25
It was founded to crash down protests and uprisings.
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Nastal je, da bi zatrl
proteste in vstaje.
proteste in vstaje.
05:30
Due to this concentration of power,
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Zaradi koncentracije vse te moči
05:32
the Stasi was called a state in the state.
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je bil Stasi znan kot država v državi.
05:37
But let's look in more and more detail
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A poglejmo si Stasijeva orodja
bolj od blizu.
bolj od blizu.
05:40
at the tools of the Stasi.
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05:42
Please keep in mind that at that time
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Ne pozabite, da takrat splet
in pametni telefoni še niso obstajali.
in pametni telefoni še niso obstajali.
05:44
the web and smartphones were not yet invented.
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05:48
Of course, the Stasi used all kinds
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Seveda je Stasi uporabljal vse vrste
tehničnih pripomočkov za nadzor.
tehničnih pripomočkov za nadzor.
05:51
of technical instruments to survey people.
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05:54
Telephones were wiretapped,
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Prisluškovali so telefonom,
05:56
including the phone of the
German chancellor in the West,
German chancellor in the West,
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tudi tistemu
zahodnonemškega kanclerja,
zahodnonemškega kanclerja,
06:00
and often also the apartments.
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pogosto tudi stanovanjem.
06:03
Every day, 90,000 letters were being opened
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Ti stroji so vsak dan
odprli 90,000 pisem.
odprli 90,000 pisem.
06:07
by these machines.
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06:10
The Stasi also shadowed
tens of thousands of people
tens of thousands of people
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Stasi je zasledoval na desettisoče ljudi,
06:14
using specially trained agents and secret cameras
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s pomočjo posebej izurjenih agentov
in skritih kamer,
in skritih kamer,
06:17
to document every step one took.
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ki so ujele vsak posameznikov korak.
06:21
In this picture, you can see me
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Tule me vidite kot mladeniča
06:23
as a young man just in front of this building
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pred stavbo v kateri smo zdaj.
06:27
where we are now, photographed by a Stasi agent.
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Fotografiral me je agent Stasija.
06:30
The Stasi even collected the smell of people.
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Stasi je zbiral celo človeški vonj.
06:35
It stored samples of it in closed jars
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Vzorce so hranili v zaprtih kozarcih,
06:38
which were found after the peaceful revolution.
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ki so bili najdeni po mirni revoluciji.
06:43
For all these tasks, highly specialized departments
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Za vse te naloge so bili odgovorni
visoko specializirani oddelki.
visoko specializirani oddelki.
06:47
were responsible.
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06:49
The one which was tapping phone calls
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Tisti, ki so prisluškovali telefonom,
06:51
was completely separated
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so bili povsem ločeni
od tistih, ki so nadzorovali pošto,
od tistih, ki so nadzorovali pošto,
06:53
from the one which controlled the letters,
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06:56
for good reasons,
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kar je imelo dober razlog:
06:57
because if one agent quit the Stasi,
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če je agent zapustil Stasi,
07:02
his knowledge was very small.
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je s seboj odnesel zelo malo znanja.
07:04
Contrast that with Snowden, for example.
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Pravo nasprotje Snowdna, recimo.
07:08
But the vertical specialization was also important
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Pomembna je bila tudi
vertikalna specializacija,
vertikalna specializacija,
07:11
to prevent all kinds of empathy
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ki je preprečevala kakršnokoli empatijo
z opazovano osebo.
z opazovano osebo.
07:13
with the object of observation.
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07:16
The agent who shadowed me
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Agent, ki je sledil meni,
07:18
didn't know who I was
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ni vedel, kdo sem,
07:20
or why I was surveyed.
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niti zakaj me opazuje.
07:22
In fact, I smuggled forbidden books
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V bistvu sem iz Zahodne v Vzhodno Nemčijo
tihotapil prepovedane knjige.
tihotapil prepovedane knjige.
07:24
from West to East Germany.
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07:27
But what was even more typical for the Stasi
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Za Stasi pa je bila še bolj značilna
07:30
was the use of human intelligence,
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uporaba človeškega obveščevanja,
07:33
people who reported secretly to the Stasi.
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ljudi, ki so mu skrivoma poročali.
07:37
For the Minister of State Security,
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Za ministra za državno varnost
07:39
these so-called unofficial employees
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so bili ti t.i. neformalni uslužbenci
najpomembnejše orodje.
najpomembnejše orodje.
07:42
were the most important tools.
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07:45
From 1975 on, nearly 200,000 people
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Od leta 1975 naprej
je skoraj 200,000 ljudi
je skoraj 200,000 ljudi
07:50
collaborated constantly with the Stasi,
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redno sodelovalo s Stasijem,
07:53
more than one percent of the population.
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kar je več kot odstotek prebivalstva.
07:58
And in a way, the minister was right,
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Na nek način je imel minister prav,
08:00
because technical instruments
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saj tehnično orodje lahko zazna
le kaj ljudje počnejo,
le kaj ljudje počnejo,
08:02
can only register what people are doing,
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08:06
but agents and spies can also report
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agenti in vohuni pa
lahko poročajo tudi o tem,
lahko poročajo tudi o tem,
08:09
what people are planning to do
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kaj ljudje nameravajo storiti
08:11
and what they are thinking.
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in o čem razmišljajo.
08:13
Therefore, the Stasi recruited so many informants.
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Zato je Stasi imel toliko ovaduhov.
08:18
The system of how to get them
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Sistem njihovega rekrutiranja
in usposabljanja
in usposabljanja
08:21
and how to educate them, as it was called,
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08:24
was very sophisticated.
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je bil zelo prefinjen.
08:27
The Stasi had its own university,
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Stasi je imel svojo univerzo,
08:30
not far away from here,
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nedaleč od tu,
08:31
where the methods were explored
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kjer so raziskovali metode
08:33
and taught to the officers.
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in jih podajali uslužbencem.
08:36
This guideline gave a detailed description
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Napotki so podrobno opisovali
08:39
of every step you have to take
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kaj je treba storiti,
če hočete ljudi prepričati,
08:42
if you want to convince human beings
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08:44
to betray their fellow citizens.
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naj izdajo sočloveka.
08:48
Sometimes it's said that informants were pressured
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Včasih se govori, da so
ovaduhe prisilili,
ovaduhe prisilili,
08:52
to becoming one,
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da so to postali,
08:53
but that's mostly not true,
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a večinoma to ne drži,
08:56
because a forced informant is a bad informant.
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saj je ovaduh pod prisilo
bolj slab ovaduh.
bolj slab ovaduh.
09:00
Only someone who wants to give
you the information you need
you the information you need
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Samo nekdo, ki vam hoče dati
podatek, ki ga iščete,
podatek, ki ga iščete,
09:03
is an effective whistleblower.
177
531312
2661
je učinkovit žvižgač.
09:05
The main reasons why people
cooperated with the Stasi
cooperated with the Stasi
178
533973
4857
Glavni razlog za sodelovanje s Stasijem
09:10
were political conviction and material benefits.
179
538830
5500
je bil v političnem prepričanju
in materialnih koristih.
in materialnih koristih.
Uslužbenci so tudi skušali
ustvariti oseben stik z ovaduhi
ustvariti oseben stik z ovaduhi
09:16
The officers also tried to create a personal bond
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544330
3110
09:19
between themselves and the informant,
181
547440
3408
09:22
and to be honest, the example of the Stasi shows
182
550848
5152
in če smo pošteni,
primer Stasija kaže,
primer Stasija kaže,
09:28
that it's not so difficult to win someone
183
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3392
da ni tako težko nekoga prepričati,
naj izda druge.
naj izda druge.
09:31
in order to betray others.
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559392
3443
09:34
Even some of the top dissidents in East Germany
185
562835
3751
Celo nekaj glavnih disidentov
iz Vzhodne Nemčije
iz Vzhodne Nemčije
09:38
collaborated with the Stasi,
186
566586
1835
je sodelovalo s Stasijem,
09:40
as for instance Ibrahim Böhme.
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568421
3745
denimo Ibrahim Böhme.
09:44
In 1989, he was the leader of the peaceful revolution
188
572166
2790
Leta 1989 je vodil mirno revolucijo
09:46
and he nearly became the first freely
elected Prime Minister of the GDR
elected Prime Minister of the GDR
189
574956
4374
in skoraj postal prvi svobodno izvoljeni
predsednik vlade NDR,
predsednik vlade NDR,
09:51
until it came out that he was an informant.
190
579330
5145
dokler se ni izvedelo, da je ovajal.
09:56
The net of spies was really broad.
191
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3929
Mreža vohunov je bila res široka.
10:00
In nearly every institution,
192
588404
1706
Skoraj v vsaki ustanovi,
10:02
even in the churches or in West Germany,
193
590110
3245
celo v cerkvah in v Zahodni Nemčiji,
10:05
there were many of them.
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2188
jih je bilo veliko.
10:07
I remember telling a leading Stasi officer,
195
595543
3489
Spomnim se, da sem vodilnemu
uslužbencu Stasija dejal:
uslužbencu Stasija dejal:
10:11
"If you had sent an informant to me,
196
599032
3429
"Če bi nadme poslali vohuna,
10:14
I would surely have recognized him."
197
602461
2630
bi ga gotovo prepoznal."
10:17
His answer was,
198
605091
1859
Odgovoril je:
10:18
"We didn't send anyone.
199
606950
1443
"Nikogar nismo poslali.
10:20
We took those who were around you."
200
608393
3022
Imeli smo tiste, ki so bili okoli tebe."
10:23
And in fact, two of my best friends
201
611415
2655
Dejansko sta dva od mojih
najboljših prijateljev
najboljših prijateljev
10:26
reported about me to the Stasi.
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614070
4331
Stasiju poročala o meni.
10:30
Not only in my case, informers were very close.
203
618401
2589
Vohuni so bili zelo blizu
ne le v mojem primeru.
ne le v mojem primeru.
10:32
For example, Vera Lengsfeld,
another leading dissident,
another leading dissident,
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620990
3703
Za Vero Lengsfeld, eno vodilnih disidentk,
10:36
in her case it was her husband who spied on her.
205
624693
4213
je denimo vohunil njen mož.
10:40
A famous writer was betrayed by his brother.
206
628906
3353
Slavnega pisatelja je izdal njegov brat.
10:44
This reminds me of the novel "1984" by George Orwell,
207
632259
3892
To me spominja na roman "1984"
Georgea Orwella,
Georgea Orwella,
10:48
where the only apparently trustable person
208
636151
3079
kjer je edina
zaupanja vredna oseba ovaduh.
zaupanja vredna oseba ovaduh.
10:51
was an informer.
209
639230
2813
10:54
But why did the Stasi collect all this information
210
642043
3697
Toda zakaj je Stasi vse te informacije
sploh zbiral in arhiviral?
sploh zbiral in arhiviral?
10:57
in its archives?
211
645740
1921
10:59
The main purpose was to control the society.
212
647661
4059
Predvsem zato, da bi nadziral družbo.
11:03
In nearly every speech, the Stasi minister
213
651720
2583
V skoraj vsakem govoru
je Stasijev minister ukazal izvedeti
je Stasijev minister ukazal izvedeti
11:06
gave the order to find out who is who,
214
654303
2722
kdo je kdo,
11:09
which meant who thinks what.
215
657025
3094
kar je pomenilo, kdo misli kaj.
11:12
He didn't want to wait until somebody
216
660119
1751
Ni hotel čakati, da bi nekdo
skušal izpodkopati režim.
skušal izpodkopati režim.
11:13
tried to act against the regime.
217
661870
2520
11:16
He wanted to know in advance
218
664390
1890
Vnaprej je hotel vedeti,
11:18
what people were thinking and planning.
219
666280
2895
kaj so ljudje razmišljali in načrtovali.
11:21
The East Germans knew, of course,
220
669175
2822
Vzhodni Nemci so seveda vedeli,
11:23
that they were surrounded by informers,
221
671997
3170
da jih obkrožajo ovaduhi,
11:27
in a totalitarian regime that created mistrust
222
675167
3973
da so v totalitarnem režimu,
ki je ustvaril nezaupanje
ki je ustvaril nezaupanje
11:31
and a state of widespread fear,
223
679140
3094
in obsežno stanje strahu
11:34
the most important tools to oppress people
224
682234
3516
kot najpomembnejši orodji
za zatiranje ljudstva
za zatiranje ljudstva
11:37
in any dictatorship.
225
685750
2159
v katerikoli diktaturi.
11:39
That's why not many East Germans tried
226
687909
2603
Zato ni bilo veliko Vzhodnih Nemcev,
ki bi se skušali boriti
proti komunističnemu režimu.
proti komunističnemu režimu.
11:42
to fight against the Communist regime.
227
690512
4284
11:46
If yes, the Stasi often used a method
228
694796
4582
Če so se, je Stasi pogosto
uporabljal res peklensko metodo.
uporabljal res peklensko metodo.
11:51
which was really diabolic.
229
699378
2672
11:54
It was called Zersetzung,
230
702050
2186
Imenovala se je Zersetzung (spodkopavanje)
11:56
and it's described in another guideline.
231
704236
3671
in opisuje jo nek drug priročnik.
11:59
The word is difficult to translate because it means
232
707907
2800
Besedo je težko prevesti,
saj v originalu pomeni
biološko degradacijo.
biološko degradacijo.
12:02
originally "biodegradation."
233
710707
3898
12:06
But actually, it's a quite accurate description.
234
714605
3354
A v resnici je oznaka kar primerna.
12:09
The goal was to destroy secretly
235
717959
3559
Cilj je bil skrivoma uničiti
samozavest ljudi,
samozavest ljudi,
12:13
the self-confidence of people,
236
721518
2890
12:16
for example by damaging their reputation,
237
724408
3113
recimo z omadeževanjem ugleda,
12:19
by organizing failures in their work,
238
727521
3469
povzročanjem napak pri delu v službi,
12:22
and by destroying their personal relationships.
239
730990
4630
uničenjem osebnih odnosov.
12:27
Considering this, East Germany
was a very modern dictatorship.
was a very modern dictatorship.
240
735620
5375
V tem smislu je bila Vzhodna Nemčija
zelo moderna diktatura.
zelo moderna diktatura.
12:32
The Stasi didn't try to arrest every dissident.
241
740995
4371
Stasi se ni trudil aretirati
vsakega disidenta.
vsakega disidenta.
12:37
It preferred to paralyze them,
242
745366
3091
Raje jih je paraliziral,
12:40
and it could do so because
243
748457
2503
kar ni bilo težko,
saj je imel dostop do tako veliko
osebnih informacij
osebnih informacij
12:42
it had access to so much personal information
244
750960
3350
12:46
and to so many institutions.
245
754310
3930
in do tako veliko institucij.
12:50
Detaining someone was used only
246
758240
2272
Človeka so prijeli
samo ko je bilo to neizbežno.
samo ko je bilo to neizbežno.
12:52
as a last resort.
247
760512
2530
12:55
For this, the Stasi owned 17 remand prisons,
248
763042
3305
Stasi je imel 17 preiskovalnih zaporov,
12:58
one in every district.
249
766347
2517
po enega v vsakem okrožju.
13:00
Here, the Stasi also developed
250
768864
2674
V njih je Stasi tudi razvil
dokaj moderne metode.
dokaj moderne metode.
13:03
quite modern methods of detention.
251
771538
4442
13:07
Normally, the interrogation officer
252
775980
1783
Ponavadi preiskovalec
ni mučil zapornika.
ni mučil zapornika.
13:09
didn't torture the prisoner.
253
777763
3463
13:13
Instead, he used a sophisticated system
254
781226
2576
Namesto tega je uporabil prefinjen sistem
psihološkega pritiska,
psihološkega pritiska,
13:15
of psychological pressure
255
783802
2138
13:17
in which strict isolation was central.
256
785940
4094
ki je temeljil na strogi izolaciji.
13:22
Nearly no prisoner resisted
257
790034
2284
Skoraj noben zapornik
ni zdržal, ne da bi priznal.
ni zdržal, ne da bi priznal.
13:24
without giving a testimony.
258
792318
3229
13:27
If you have the occasion,
259
795547
2062
Če imate možnost,
13:29
do visit the former Stasi prison in Berlin
260
797609
3451
obiščite nekdanji Stasijev zapor
v Berlinu
v Berlinu
13:33
and attend a guided tour
with a former political prisoner
with a former political prisoner
261
801060
3589
in pojdite na voden ogled
z nekdanjim političnim zapornikom,
z nekdanjim političnim zapornikom,
13:36
who will explain to you how this worked.
262
804649
2856
ki vam bo pojasnil, kako je to delovalo.
13:39
One more question needs to be answered:
263
807505
3159
Treba je odgovoriti še na eno vprašanje:
13:42
If the Stasi were so well organized,
264
810664
2442
Če je bil Stasi tako dobro organiziran,
13:45
why did the Communist regime collapse?
265
813106
4333
zakaj je komunistični režim padel?
13:49
First, in 1989, the leadership in East Germany
266
817439
4131
Prvič, leta 1989 vzhodnonemško vodstvo
ni vedelo,
ni vedelo,
13:53
was uncertain what to do against
267
821570
2261
kaj storiti proti
naraščajočim protestom prebivalstva.
naraščajočim protestom prebivalstva.
13:55
the growing protest of people.
268
823831
2937
13:58
It was especially confused
269
826768
2351
Posebej nenavadno je bilo,
14:01
because in the mother country of socialism,
270
829119
2771
da je mati socializma,
14:03
the Soviet Union,
271
831890
1520
Sovjetska zveza,
14:05
a more liberal policy took place.
272
833410
3383
ubrala bolj liberalno politiko.
14:08
In addition, the regime was dependent
273
836793
2417
Poleg tega je bil režim odvisen
od zahodnih posojil.
od zahodnih posojil.
14:11
on the loans from the West.
274
839210
3392
14:14
Therefore, no order to crash down the uprising
275
842602
2548
Stasi tako ni dobil ukaza,
14:17
was given to the Stasi.
276
845150
3077
naj zatre upor.
14:20
Secondly, in the Communist ideology,
277
848227
3633
Drugič, komunistična ideologija
nima prostora za kritiko.
nima prostora za kritiko.
14:23
there's no place for criticism.
278
851860
2653
14:26
Instead, the leadership stuck to the belief
279
854513
2307
Namesto tega je vodstvo
še naprej verjelo,
še naprej verjelo,
14:28
that socialism is a perfect system,
280
856820
2794
da je socializem popoln sistem,
14:31
and the Stasi had to confirm that, of course.
281
859614
4251
Stasi pa je to moral seveda podpreti.
14:35
The consequence was
282
863865
2361
Posledica je bila,
14:38
that despite all the information,
283
866226
2496
da režim kljub vsem informacijam
14:40
the regime couldn't analyze its real problems,
284
868722
4164
ni mogel analizirati pravih problemov
14:44
and therefore it couldn't solve them.
285
872886
2685
in jih torej rešiti.
14:47
In the end, the Stasi died
286
875571
2704
Na koncu je Stasi propadel
zaradi struktur,
zaradi struktur,
14:50
because of the structures
287
878275
1793
14:52
that it was charged with protecting.
288
880068
3720
ki jih je moral ščititi.
14:55
The ending of the Stasi
289
883788
2070
Konec Stasija je bil tragičen,
14:57
was something tragic,
290
885858
2047
14:59
because these officers
291
887905
2059
saj so bili ti uslužbenci
med mirno revolucijo
med mirno revolucijo
15:01
were kept busy during the peaceful revolution
292
889964
3068
15:05
with only one thing:
293
893032
1975
zaposleni z eno samo nalogo:
15:07
to destroy the documents
294
895007
2653
uničiti dokumente,
15:09
they had produced during decades.
295
897660
3691
ki so jih desetletja zbirali.
15:13
Fortunately,
296
901351
1918
Na srečo so jih ustavili
borci za človekove pravice.
borci za človekove pravice.
15:15
they had been stopped by human rights activists.
297
903269
3537
15:18
That's why today we can use the files
298
906806
2926
Zato lahko danes dostopamo do virov,
15:21
to get a better understanding
299
909732
1624
da bi bolje razumeli,
15:23
of how a surveillance state functions.
300
911356
2780
kako deluje država nadzora.
15:26
Thank you.
301
914136
1997
Hvala.
(aplavz)
15:28
(Applause)
302
916133
4306
15:36
Bruno Giussani: Thank you. Thank you very much.
303
924518
6060
Bruno Giussani: Hvala. Najlepša hvala.
15:42
So Hubertus, I want to ask you a couple of questions
304
930578
2724
Hubertus, rad bi vas nekaj vprašal,
15:45
because I have here Der Spiegel from last week.
305
933302
2788
kajti tu imam izdajo tednika
Der Spiegel minulega tedna.
Der Spiegel minulega tedna.
15:48
"Mein Nachbar NSA." My neighbor, the NSA.
306
936090
4874
"Moj sosed NSA."
15:52
And you just told us about my neighbor,
307
940964
2631
Pravkar si nam pripovedoval o sosedu,
15:55
the spies and the informant from East Germany.
308
943595
2988
o vohunih in ovaduhih iz Vzhodne Nemčije.
15:58
So there is a direct link between these two stories
309
946583
2700
Je med tema zgodbama direktna povezava
16:01
or there isn't?
310
949283
1878
ali ne?
16:03
What's your reaction as a
historian when you see this?
historian when you see this?
311
951161
2022
Kaj pravite kot zgodovinar, ko to vidite?
16:05
Hubertus Knabe: I think there are
312
953183
1725
H. Knabe: Mislim, da velja
omeniti več vidikov.
omeniti več vidikov.
16:06
several aspects to mention.
313
954908
1903
16:08
At first, I think there's a difference
314
956811
3066
Prvič, mislim, da obstaja razlika
16:11
of why you are collecting this data.
315
959877
4088
v razlogih za zbiranje podatkov.
16:15
Are you doing that for protecting your people
316
963965
2318
Gre za zaščito svojih ljudi
pred terorističnimi napadi
pred terorističnimi napadi
16:18
against terrorist attacks,
317
966283
1547
16:19
or are you doing that for oppressing your people?
318
967830
2770
ali za zatiranje svojih ljudi?
16:22
So that makes a fundamental difference.
319
970600
1942
V tem je temeljna razlika.
16:24
But on the other hand,
320
972542
2349
Po drugi strani
16:26
also in a democracy, these
instruments can be abused,
instruments can be abused,
321
974891
4319
pa tudi v demokraciji
te instrumente lahko zlorabijo
te instrumente lahko zlorabijo
16:31
and that is something where we really have
322
979210
2166
in tega se moramo zavedati,
16:33
to be aware to stop that,
323
981376
1385
če hočemo to ustaviti,
16:34
and that also the intelligence services
324
982761
2873
ter če hočemo, da bodo
tudi obveščevalne službe
tudi obveščevalne službe
16:37
are respecting the rules we have.
325
985634
3121
spoštovale obstoječa pravila.
16:40
The third point, probably,
326
988755
1500
Tretjič, verjetno smo lahko zelo veseli,
16:42
we really can be happy that we live in a democracy,
327
990255
3288
da živimo v demokraciji,
16:45
because you can be sure that Russia and China
328
993543
3680
saj veste, da Rusija in Kitajska
gotovo počneta isto,
gotovo počneta isto,
16:49
are doing the same,
329
997223
1532
16:50
but nobody speaks about that
330
998755
1566
a nihče o tem ne govori,
16:52
because nobody could do that.
331
1000321
2291
ker si nihče ne upa.
16:54
(Applause)
332
1002612
4964
(aplavz)
17:01
BG: When the story came out first,
333
1009398
2053
BG: Ko je zgodba prvič izbruhnila,
17:03
last July, last year,
334
1011451
2195
lani julija,
17:05
you filed a criminal complaint
335
1013646
2828
ste na nemško sodišče
vložili kazensko ovadbo. Zakaj?
vložili kazensko ovadbo. Zakaj?
17:08
with a German tribunal. Why?
336
1016474
2980
17:11
HK: Yeah, I did so because of
the second point I mentioned,
the second point I mentioned,
337
1019454
3213
HK: Ja, zaradi druge točke,
ki sem jo omenil,
ki sem jo omenil,
17:14
that I think especially in a democracy,
338
1022667
2897
ker menim, da posebej v demokraciji
17:17
the rules are for everybody.
339
1025564
3458
pravila veljajo za vse.
17:21
They are made for everybody, so it's not allowed
340
1029022
2364
Narejena so za vse,
zato ni dovoljeno,
zato ni dovoljeno,
17:23
that any institution doesn't respect the rules.
341
1031386
3791
da jih katerakoli institucija
ne bi spoštovala.
ne bi spoštovala.
17:27
In the criminal code of Germany, it's written
342
1035177
1978
V nemškem kazenskem zakoniku piše,
17:29
that it's not allowed to tap somebody
343
1037155
1855
da nikomur ne smemo prisluškovati
brez dovoljenja sodnika.
brez dovoljenja sodnika.
17:31
without the permission of the judge.
344
1039010
2388
17:33
Fortunately, it's written in
the criminal code of Germany,
the criminal code of Germany,
345
1041398
3821
Na srečo je v nemškem
kazenskem zakoniku,
kazenskem zakoniku,
17:37
so if it's not respected, then I think
346
1045219
3931
zato če se tega ne spoštuje,
17:41
an investigation is necessary,
347
1049150
1896
potem je potrebna preiskava.
17:43
and it took a very long time that
348
1051046
1979
Zelo dolgo je trajalo,
17:45
the public prosecutor of Germany started this,
349
1053025
2106
da je nemški javni tožilec to sprožil,
17:47
and he started it only in the case of Angela Merkel,
350
1055131
3571
pa še to le za primer Angele Merkel,
17:50
and not in the case of all the
other people living in Germany.
other people living in Germany.
351
1058702
2956
ne za vse druge primere ljudi,
živečih v Nemčiji.
živečih v Nemčiji.
17:53
BG: That doesn't surprise me because —
352
1061658
2473
BG: To me ne preseneča...
17:56
(Applause) —
353
1064131
2123
(aplavz)
17:58
because of the story you told.
354
1066254
3443
prav zaradi zgodbe, ki si jo povedal.
18:01
Seen from the outside, I live outside of Germany,
355
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Gledano izven Nemčije in sam živim drugje,
18:04
and I expected the Germans to react
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sem pričakoval,
da bodo Nemci reagirali
veliko močneje in takoj.
veliko močneje in takoj.
18:05
much more strongly, immediately.
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18:09
And instead, the reaction really came only
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Namesto tega se je to zgodilo šele,
18:11
when Chancellor Merkel was revealed
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ko so razkrili prisluškovanje
kanclerki Merklovi. Zakaj?
kanclerki Merklovi. Zakaj?
18:13
as being wiretapped. Why so?
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18:17
HK: I take it as a good sign,
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HK: To je zame dober znak,
18:19
because people feel secure in this democracy.
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da se ljudje v tej demokraciji
počutijo varne.
počutijo varne.
18:23
They aren't afraid that they will be arrested,
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Ne bojijo se, da jih bodo zaprli,
18:25
and if you leave this hall after the conference,
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in ko boste po konferenci
zapustili dvorano,
zapustili dvorano,
18:28
nobody has to be afraid that the secret police
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se nikomur ni treba bati,
da zunaj stoji tajna policija,
da zunaj stoji tajna policija,
18:31
is standing out and is arresting you.
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ki bi vas prijela.
18:33
So that's a good sign, I think.
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Mislim, da je to dober znak.
18:35
People are not really scared, as they could be.
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Ljudi ni zares strah,
kot bi jih lahko bilo.
kot bi jih lahko bilo.
18:38
But of course, I think, the institutions
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Seveda pa mislim,
da morajo institucije
ustaviti nezakonita dejanja
ustaviti nezakonita dejanja
18:42
are responsible to stop illegal actions
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18:45
in Germany or wherever they happen.
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v Nemčiji ali kjerkoli drugje.
18:48
BG: A personal question,
and this is the last one.
and this is the last one.
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BG: Še osebno vprašanje, čisto zadnje.
18:51
There has been a debate in Germany about
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V Nemčiji je potekala razprava
18:53
granting asylum to Edward Snowden.
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o dodelitvi azila Edwardu Snowdnu.
18:55
Would you be in favor or against?
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Bi bili za ali proti?
18:58
HK: Oh, that's a difficult question,
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HK: O, to je težko vprašanje,
18:59
but if you ask me,
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a če vztrajate
19:01
and if I answer honestly,
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in če sem pošten,
19:03
I would give him the asylum,
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bi mu dal azil,
19:04
because I think it was really brave what he did,
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saj mislim, da je naredil nekaj pogumnega,
19:06
and he destroyed his whole life
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kar je uničilo njegovo življenje,
19:09
and his family and everything.
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njegovo družino in vse.
19:11
So I think, for these people,
we should do something,
we should do something,
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Mislim, da bi za take ljudi
morali nekaj storiti,
morali nekaj storiti,
19:14
and especially if you see the German history,
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posebej če pogledate nemško zgodovino,
19:18
where so many people had to escape
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kjer je moralo pobegniti toliko ljudi,
19:21
and they asked for asylum in other countries
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ki so iskali azil drugje
19:23
and they didn't get it,
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in ga niso dobili,
19:24
so it would be a good sign to give him asylum.
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zato bi bil dober znak, da bi ga on dobil.
19:27
(Applause)
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(aplavz)
19:29
BG: Hubertus, thank you very much.
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BG: Hubertus, hvala lepa.
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Hubertus Knabe - HistorianHubertus Knabe studies the history of torture, oppression and surveillance in former East Germany.
Why you should listen
Hubertus Knabe is a historian and the scientific director of Berlin-Hohenschönhausen Memorial, where he studies the inner workings of the East German Ministry of State Security (MfS) -- or Stasi -- between 1945 and 1989. The memorial, once the main remand prison used by the Stasi, is devoted to raising awareness of the brutal oppression that once stemmed from the agency. Before the fall of the Berlin Wall Knabe was under surveillance himself, for smuggling banned books from the West into East Germany. He is the author of over a dozen books on German history, including 17. Juni 1953 - Ein deutscher Aufstand.
More profile about the speakerHubertus Knabe | Speaker | TED.com