TEDSalon Berlin 2014
Hubertus Knabe: The dark secrets of a surveillance state
Hubertus Knabe: Mračne tajne države pod nadzorom
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Pođite u obilazak dubokog, mračnog sveta istočnonemačke bezbednosne agencije, poznate kao Štazi. Naročito su bili moćni u špijuniranju sopstvenih građana. Do pada Berlinskog zida, 1989. godine, Štazi je usavršila sistem nadzora i psihološkog pritiska, kojim je kontrolisala državu decenijama. Hubertus Knabe izučava Štazi - takođe su ga i špijunirali. Deli sa nama zapanjujuće detalje o padu države pod nadzorom i otkriva nam koliko je lako bilo okrenuti komšiju protiv komšije.
Hubertus Knabe - Historian
Hubertus Knabe studies the history of torture, oppression and surveillance in former East Germany. Full bio
Hubertus Knabe studies the history of torture, oppression and surveillance in former East Germany. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
This year, Germany is celebrating
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Ove godine, Nemačka slavi
00:14
the 25th anniversary of the peaceful revolution
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25. godišnjicu mirne revolucije
00:17
in East Germany.
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u Istočnoj Nemačkoj.
00:19
In 1989, the Communist regime was moved away,
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Godine 1989, komunistički režim je oboren,
00:23
the Berlin Wall came down, and one year later,
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pao je Berlinski zid i godinu dana kasnije
00:27
the German Democratic Republic, the GDR,
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Nemačka Demokratska Republika, NDR,
00:31
in the East was unified
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na istoku, ujedinjena je
00:33
with the Federal Republic of Germany in the West
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sa Saveznom Republikom Nemačkom
na zapadu
na zapadu
00:35
to found today's Germany.
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kako bi bila osnovana današnja Nemačka.
00:39
Among many other things, Germany inherited
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Između ostalog, Nemačka je nasledila
00:42
the archives of the East German secret police,
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arhivu istočnonemačke tajne policije,
00:47
known as the Stasi.
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poznate kao Štazi.
00:50
Only two years after its dissolution,
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Samo dve godine nakon raspuštanja,
00:52
its documents were opened to the public,
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njena dokumenta
su postala dostupna javnosti
su postala dostupna javnosti
00:56
and historians such as me started
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i istoričari, poput mene, počeli su
00:59
to study these documents
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da izučavaju ova dokumenta,
01:01
to learn more about how the GDR surveillance state
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kako bi naučili više o tome
kako je državni nadzor NDR-a
kako je državni nadzor NDR-a
01:05
functioned.
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funkcionisao.
01:07
Perhaps you have watched the movie
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Možda ste gledali film
01:10
"The Lives of Others."
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"Životi drugih".
01:12
This movie made the Stasi known worldwide,
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Zbog ovog filma Štazi
je postala poznata u celom svetu
je postala poznata u celom svetu
01:17
and as we live in an age where words
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i, kako živimo u dobu u kome se reči,
01:19
such as "surveillance" or "wiretapping"
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poput "nadzora" ili "prisluškivanja"
01:23
are on the front pages of newspapers,
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nalaze na naslovnim stranama novina,
01:25
I would like to speak about how the Stasi
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želeo bih da govorim o tome kako je Štazi
01:28
really worked.
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uistinu funkcionisala.
01:31
At the beginning, let's have a short look
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Prvo, hajde da se na kratko osvrnemo
01:33
at the history of the Stasi,
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na istoriju Štazija,
01:35
because it's really important for understanding
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jer je ona izuzetno važna za razumevanje
01:38
its self-conception.
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samog pojma.
01:41
Its origins are located in Russia.
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Njeno poreklo je u Rusiji.
01:44
In 1917, the Russian Communists founded
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Godine 1917, ruski komunisti su osnovali
01:46
the Emergency Commission for Combating
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Vanrednu komisiju za borbu protiv
01:48
Counter-Revolution and Sabotage,
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kontrarevolucije i sabotaže,
01:51
shortly Cheka.
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skraćeno Če-Ka.
01:53
It was led by Felix Dzerzhinsky.
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Njen vođa je bio Feliks Džeržinski.
01:56
The Cheka was an instrument of the Communists
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Če-Ka je bila instrument komunista
02:00
to establish their regime by terrorizing the population
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pomoću koga su učvrstili svoj režim,
terorišući narod
terorišući narod
02:03
and executing their enemies.
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i ubijajući neprijatelje.
02:06
It evolved later into the well-known KGB.
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Kasnije se razvila u dobro poznatu KGB.
02:12
The Cheka was the idol of the Stasi officers.
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Če-Ka je bila uzor Štazijevim oficirima.
02:15
They called themselves Chekists,
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Zvali su sebe Čekistima,
02:18
and even the emblem was very similar,
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a čak im je i grb bio veoma sličan,
02:21
as you can see here.
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kao što možete da vidite ovde.
02:24
In fact, the secret police of Russia
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Zapravo, Ruska tajna policija
02:28
was the creator and instructor of the Stasi.
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je bila tvorac i instruktor Štazija.
02:31
When the Red Army occupied East Germany in 1945,
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Kada je Crvena armija
okupirala Istočnu Nemačku 1945,
okupirala Istočnu Nemačku 1945,
02:35
it immediately expanded there,
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odmah su počeli da se šire tu
02:37
and soon it started to train the German Communists
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i ubrzo su počeli
da podučavaju nemačke komuniste
da podučavaju nemačke komuniste
02:41
to build up their own secret police.
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kako da osnuju sopstvenu tajnu policiju.
02:44
By the way, in this hall where we are now,
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Usput, u ovoj sali, u kojoj smo sad,
02:47
the ruling party of the GDR was founded in 1946.
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osnovana je vladajuća partija NDR-a 1946.
02:53
Five years later, the Stasi was established,
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Pet godina kasnije, osnovana je Štazi
02:56
and step by step, the dirty job of oppression
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i, korak po korak,
prljavi posao ugnjetavanja
prljavi posao ugnjetavanja
02:59
was handed over to it.
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prepušten je njima.
03:02
For instance, the central jail
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Na primer, centralni zatvor
03:04
for political prisoners,
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za političke zatvorenike,
03:05
which was established by the Russians,
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koji su osnovali Rusi,
03:08
was taken over by the Stasi
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preuzela je Štazi
03:10
and used until the end of Communism.
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i koristila ga je do pada komunizma.
03:14
You see it here.
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Vidite ga ovde.
03:15
At the beginning, every important step
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Na početku je svaki važan korak
03:19
took place under the attendance of the Russians.
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nadgledan od strane Rusa.
03:23
But the Germans are known to be very effective,
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Ali Nemci su poznati
po svojoj efikasnosti,
po svojoj efikasnosti,
03:26
so the Stasi grew very quickly,
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pa je Štazi rasla veoma brzo
03:29
and already in 1953, it had more employees
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i već je 1953. imala više zaposlenih
03:33
than the Gestapo had,
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nego što je imala Gestapo,
03:34
the secret police of Nazi Germany.
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tajna policija nacističke Nemačke.
03:37
The number doubled in each decade.
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Svake decenije broj se udvostručavao.
03:40
In 1989, more than 90,000 employees
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Godine 1989, više od 90,000 zaposlenih
03:43
worked for the Stasi.
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je radilo za Štazi.
03:45
This meant that one employee
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Ovo je značilo da je jedan zaposleni
03:47
was responsible for 180 inhabitants,
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bio odgovoran za 180 stanovnika,
03:50
which was really unique in the world.
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što je zaista bilo jedinstveno u svetu.
03:54
At the top of this tremendous apparatus,
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Na vrhu ovog ogromnog aparata,
03:57
there was one man, Erich Mielke.
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bio je jedan čovek, Erih Melke.
04:01
He ruled the Ministry of State Security
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Vladao je
Ministarstvom za državnu bezbednost
Ministarstvom za državnu bezbednost
04:03
for more than 30 years.
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više od 30 godina.
04:05
He was a scrupulous functionary —
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Bio je bezobziran funkcioner -
04:08
in his past, he killed two policemen
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u prošlosti je ubio dva policajca,
04:11
not far away from here —
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nedaleko odavde -
04:13
who in fact personalized the Stasi.
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on je zapravo bio oličenje Štazija.
04:17
But what was so exceptional about the Stasi?
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Ali šta je bilo tako izuzetno
kad je Štazi u pitanju?
kad je Štazi u pitanju?
04:21
Foremost, it was its enormous power,
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Iznad svega, bila je to njena ogromna moć,
04:24
because it united different functions
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jer je ujedinjavala različite funkcije
04:28
in one organization.
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unutar jedne organizacije.
04:30
First of all, the Stasi
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Pod jedan, Štazi
04:32
was an intelligence service.
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je bila obaveštajna služba.
04:35
It used all the imaginable instruments
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Koristila je sve moguće instrumente
04:38
for getting information secretly,
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da bi tajno stigla do informacija,
04:40
such as informers, or tapping phones,
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poput doušnika, prisluškivanja telefona,
04:43
as you can see it on the picture here.
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kao što možete da vidite
na ovoj fotografiji.
na ovoj fotografiji.
04:46
And it was not only active in East Germany,
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I nije bila aktivna
samo u Istočnoj Nemačkoj,
samo u Istočnoj Nemačkoj,
04:49
but all over the world.
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već po celom svetu.
04:52
Secondly, the Stasi was a secret police.
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Pod dva, Štazi je bila tajna policija.
04:56
It could stop people on the street
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Mogli su da zaustavljaju ljude na ulici
04:58
and arrest them in its own prisons.
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i da ih zatvaraju u sopstvene zatvore.
05:03
Thirdly, the Stasi worked
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I pod tri, Štazi je radila
05:04
as a kind of public prosecutor.
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poput neke vrste javnog tužioca.
05:07
It had the right to open preliminary investigations
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Imala je ovlašćenje
da otvori preliminarnu istragu
da otvori preliminarnu istragu
05:10
and to interrogate people officially.
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i da zvanično saslušava ljude.
05:14
Last but not least,
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I na kraju, ali ne najmanje važno,
05:16
the Stasi had its own armed forces.
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Štazi je imala sopstvene oružane snage.
05:20
More than 11,000 soldiers were serving
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Više od 11,000 vojnika je služilo
05:22
in its so-called Guards Regiment.
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u njenom, takozvanom, oružanom puku.
05:25
It was founded to crash down protests and uprisings.
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Osnovana je sa ciljem
da guši proteste i pobune.
da guši proteste i pobune.
05:30
Due to this concentration of power,
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Zahvaljujući ovakvoj koncentraciji moći,
05:32
the Stasi was called a state in the state.
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Štazi je nazivana državom u državi.
05:37
But let's look in more and more detail
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Ali pogledajmo što detaljnije
05:40
at the tools of the Stasi.
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oruđa Štazija.
05:42
Please keep in mind that at that time
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Molim vas da imate na umu da tada
05:44
the web and smartphones were not yet invented.
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internet i pametni telefoni
nisu još bili izumljeni.
nisu još bili izumljeni.
05:48
Of course, the Stasi used all kinds
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Naravno, Štazi je koristila sve moguće
05:51
of technical instruments to survey people.
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tehničke instrumente da nadgleda ljude.
05:54
Telephones were wiretapped,
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Telefoni su prisluškivani,
05:56
including the phone of the
German chancellor in the West,
German chancellor in the West,
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uključujući i telefon
kancelara Zapadne Nemačke,
kancelara Zapadne Nemačke,
06:00
and often also the apartments.
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a često su i stanovi prisluškivani.
06:03
Every day, 90,000 letters were being opened
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Svakoga dana 90,000 pisama su otvarale
06:07
by these machines.
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ove mašine.
06:10
The Stasi also shadowed
tens of thousands of people
tens of thousands of people
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Štazi je takođe pratila
desetine hiljada ljudi,
desetine hiljada ljudi,
06:14
using specially trained agents and secret cameras
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koristeći specijalno obučene agente
i tajne kamere,
i tajne kamere,
06:17
to document every step one took.
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kako bi zabeležili
svaki korak koji neko napravi.
svaki korak koji neko napravi.
06:21
In this picture, you can see me
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Na ovoj slici vidite mene,
06:23
as a young man just in front of this building
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kao mladića, baš ispred ove zgrade
06:27
where we are now, photographed by a Stasi agent.
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u kojoj smo sad,
fotografisao me je agent Štazija.
fotografisao me je agent Štazija.
06:30
The Stasi even collected the smell of people.
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Štazi je čak sakupljala ljudske mirise.
06:35
It stored samples of it in closed jars
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Skladištili su uzorke
u zatvorenim teglama,
u zatvorenim teglama,
06:38
which were found after the peaceful revolution.
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koje su otkrivene nakon mirne revolucije.
06:43
For all these tasks, highly specialized departments
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Za sve ove zadatke, bili su zaduženi
06:47
were responsible.
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visoko specijalizovani odseci.
06:49
The one which was tapping phone calls
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Odsek za prisluškivanje telefona
06:51
was completely separated
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bio je potpuno odvojen
06:53
from the one which controlled the letters,
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od odseka koji je proveravao pisma,
06:56
for good reasons,
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s dobrim razlogom,
06:57
because if one agent quit the Stasi,
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jer ukoliko bi agent napustio Štazi,
07:02
his knowledge was very small.
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njegovo znanje je bilo veoma malo.
07:04
Contrast that with Snowden, for example.
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Nasuprot Snoudenu, na primer.
07:08
But the vertical specialization was also important
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Ali vertikalna specijalizacija
je takođe bila važna
je takođe bila važna
07:11
to prevent all kinds of empathy
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za sprečavanje bilo kog oblika empatije
07:13
with the object of observation.
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s posmatranim objektom.
07:16
The agent who shadowed me
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Agent koji me je pratio
07:18
didn't know who I was
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nije znao ko sam ja
07:20
or why I was surveyed.
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ili zašto sam praćen.
Krijumčario sam zabranjene knjige
07:22
In fact, I smuggled forbidden books
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07:24
from West to East Germany.
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iz Zapadne u Istočnu Nemačku.
07:27
But what was even more typical for the Stasi
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Ali ono što je bilo
najkarakterističnije za Štazi,
najkarakterističnije za Štazi,
07:30
was the use of human intelligence,
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bila je upotreba ljudskih obaveštajaca,
07:33
people who reported secretly to the Stasi.
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ljudi koji su tajno izveštavali Štaziju.
07:37
For the Minister of State Security,
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Za ministra Državne bezbednosti,
07:39
these so-called unofficial employees
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ovi, takozvani nezvanični službenici,
07:42
were the most important tools.
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su bili najvažnije oruđe.
07:45
From 1975 on, nearly 200,000 people
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Od 1975. pa na dalje, skoro 200,000 ljudi
07:50
collaborated constantly with the Stasi,
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je bilo u stalnoj saradnji sa Štazijem,
07:53
more than one percent of the population.
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više od jednog procenta populacije.
07:58
And in a way, the minister was right,
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I, na neki način, ministar je bio u pravu
08:00
because technical instruments
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jer tehnički instrumenti
08:02
can only register what people are doing,
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mogu jedino da registruju šta ljudi rade,
08:06
but agents and spies can also report
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ali agenti i špijuni
mogu takođe da zabeleže
mogu takođe da zabeleže
08:09
what people are planning to do
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šta ljudi planiraju da urade
08:11
and what they are thinking.
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i o čemu razmišljaju.
08:13
Therefore, the Stasi recruited so many informants.
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Iz tog razloga je Štazi
regrutovala toliko obaveštajaca.
regrutovala toliko obaveštajaca.
08:18
The system of how to get them
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Sistem njihovog pronalaženja
08:21
and how to educate them, as it was called,
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i edukacije, kako je to nazivano,
08:24
was very sophisticated.
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bio je veoma prefinjen.
08:27
The Stasi had its own university,
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Štazi je imala sopstveni univerzitet,
08:30
not far away from here,
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nedaleko odavde,
08:31
where the methods were explored
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gde su ispitivali metode
08:33
and taught to the officers.
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i podučavali tome oficire.
08:36
This guideline gave a detailed description
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Ovaj vodič je pružao detaljan opis
08:39
of every step you have to take
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svakog koraka
koji ste morali da napravite,
koji ste morali da napravite,
08:42
if you want to convince human beings
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ako ste želeli da ubedite ljudska bića
08:44
to betray their fellow citizens.
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da izdaju svoju sabraću.
08:48
Sometimes it's said that informants were pressured
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Ponekad čujemo da su doušnici primoravani
08:52
to becoming one,
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da to postanu,
08:53
but that's mostly not true,
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ali to uglavnom nije istina
08:56
because a forced informant is a bad informant.
175
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3911
jer je usiljeni doušnik, loš doušnik.
09:00
Only someone who wants to give
you the information you need
you the information you need
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Samo onaj ko želi
da vam pruži željenu informaciju
da vam pruži željenu informaciju
09:03
is an effective whistleblower.
177
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je efikasan uzbunjivač.
09:05
The main reasons why people
cooperated with the Stasi
cooperated with the Stasi
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Glavni razlozi zbog kojih su ljudi
sarađivali sa Štazijem
sarađivali sa Štazijem
09:10
were political conviction and material benefits.
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5500
su bili politička ubeđenja
i materijalna korist.
i materijalna korist.
09:16
The officers also tried to create a personal bond
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3110
Oficiri su takođe pokušavali
da izgrade lične veze
da izgrade lične veze
09:19
between themselves and the informant,
181
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3408
između sebe i doušnika,
09:22
and to be honest, the example of the Stasi shows
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5152
i da budem iskren,
Štazijev primer nam pokazuje
Štazijev primer nam pokazuje
09:28
that it's not so difficult to win someone
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3392
da nije tako teško pridobiti nekoga
09:31
in order to betray others.
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3443
kako bi izdao druge.
09:34
Even some of the top dissidents in East Germany
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3751
Čak su i neki od vrhunskih disidenata
iz Istočne Nemačke
iz Istočne Nemačke
09:38
collaborated with the Stasi,
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1835
sarađivali sa Štazijem,
09:40
as for instance Ibrahim Böhme.
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3745
kao na primer Ibrahim Beme.
09:44
In 1989, he was the leader of the peaceful revolution
188
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2790
Godine 1989, bio je vođa mirne revolucije
09:46
and he nearly became the first freely
elected Prime Minister of the GDR
elected Prime Minister of the GDR
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4374
i umalo nije postao prvi
slobodno izabrani premijer NDR-a,
slobodno izabrani premijer NDR-a,
09:51
until it came out that he was an informant.
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dok nije otkriveno da je bio doušnik.
09:56
The net of spies was really broad.
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Mreža špijuna je bila zaista široka.
10:00
In nearly every institution,
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1706
U skoro svakoj instituciji,
10:02
even in the churches or in West Germany,
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3245
čak i u crkvama ili u Zapadnoj Nemačkoj
10:05
there were many of them.
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bilo ih je mnogo.
10:07
I remember telling a leading Stasi officer,
195
595543
3489
Sećam se kako sam rekao
vodećem oficiru Štazija:
vodećem oficiru Štazija:
10:11
"If you had sent an informant to me,
196
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3429
"Da ste mi poslali doušnika,
10:14
I would surely have recognized him."
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sigurno bih ga prepoznao."
10:17
His answer was,
198
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1859
On je odgovorio:
10:18
"We didn't send anyone.
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1443
"Nismo poslali nikoga.
10:20
We took those who were around you."
200
608393
3022
Uzeli smo ljude koji su bili oko vas."
10:23
And in fact, two of my best friends
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2655
Zapravo su moja dva najbolja prijatelja
10:26
reported about me to the Stasi.
202
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4331
izveštavala o meni Štaziju.
10:30
Not only in my case, informers were very close.
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2589
Nisu samo u mom slučaju
doušnici bili bliski ljudi.
doušnici bili bliski ljudi.
10:32
For example, Vera Lengsfeld,
another leading dissident,
another leading dissident,
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620990
3703
Na primer, Veru Lengsfeld,
još jednog vodećeg disidenta,
još jednog vodećeg disidenta,
10:36
in her case it was her husband who spied on her.
205
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4213
špijunirao je njen muž.
10:40
A famous writer was betrayed by his brother.
206
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3353
Poznatog pisca je izdao rođeni brat.
10:44
This reminds me of the novel "1984" by George Orwell,
207
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3892
Ovo me podseća na roman
"1984" od Džordža Orvela,
"1984" od Džordža Orvela,
10:48
where the only apparently trustable person
208
636151
3079
u kome se čini da je jedina
osoba od poverenja
osoba od poverenja
10:51
was an informer.
209
639230
2813
doušnik.
10:54
But why did the Stasi collect all this information
210
642043
3697
Ali zašto je Štazi
sakupljala sve ove informacije
sakupljala sve ove informacije
10:57
in its archives?
211
645740
1921
u svojim arhivima?
10:59
The main purpose was to control the society.
212
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4059
Glavni cilj je bio kontrolisanje društva.
11:03
In nearly every speech, the Stasi minister
213
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2583
U skoro svim govorima, ministar Štazija
11:06
gave the order to find out who is who,
214
654303
2722
je naređivao da se otkrije ko je ko,
11:09
which meant who thinks what.
215
657025
3094
što je značilo ko o čemu razmišlja.
11:12
He didn't want to wait until somebody
216
660119
1751
On nije želeo da čeka da neko
11:13
tried to act against the regime.
217
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2520
pokuša da deluje protiv režima.
11:16
He wanted to know in advance
218
664390
1890
Želeo je unapred da zna
11:18
what people were thinking and planning.
219
666280
2895
o čemu su ljudi razmišljali
i šta su planirali.
i šta su planirali.
11:21
The East Germans knew, of course,
220
669175
2822
Ljudi u Istočnoj Nemačkoj su naravno znali
11:23
that they were surrounded by informers,
221
671997
3170
da su okruženi doušnicima,
11:27
in a totalitarian regime that created mistrust
222
675167
3973
u totalitarnom režimu
koji stvara nepoverenje
koji stvara nepoverenje
11:31
and a state of widespread fear,
223
679140
3094
i stanje široko rasprostranjenog straha,
11:34
the most important tools to oppress people
224
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3516
najznačajnija oruđa za ugnjetavanje ljudi
11:37
in any dictatorship.
225
685750
2159
u bilo kojoj diktaturi.
11:39
That's why not many East Germans tried
226
687909
2603
Zbog toga je
retko koji Istočni Nemac pokušao
retko koji Istočni Nemac pokušao
11:42
to fight against the Communist regime.
227
690512
4284
da se usprotivi komunističkom režimu.
11:46
If yes, the Stasi often used a method
228
694796
4582
Ukoliko jeste,
Štazi je često koristila metod
Štazi je često koristila metod
11:51
which was really diabolic.
229
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2672
koji je bio uistinu dijaboličan.
11:54
It was called Zersetzung,
230
702050
2186
Nazivan je cerzecungom
11:56
and it's described in another guideline.
231
704236
3671
i opisan je u drugom vodiču.
11:59
The word is difficult to translate because it means
232
707907
2800
Reč je teško prevesti jer izvorno zanči
12:02
originally "biodegradation."
233
710707
3898
"biodegradacija".
12:06
But actually, it's a quite accurate description.
234
714605
3354
Ali to je zapravo prilično precizan opis.
12:09
The goal was to destroy secretly
235
717959
3559
Cilj je bio da se tajno uništi
12:13
the self-confidence of people,
236
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2890
samopouzdanje ljudi,
12:16
for example by damaging their reputation,
237
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3113
na primer, narušavanjem njihovog ugleda,
12:19
by organizing failures in their work,
238
727521
3469
udešavanjem grešaka na njihovom poslu
12:22
and by destroying their personal relationships.
239
730990
4630
i uništavanjem njihovih privatnih odnosa.
12:27
Considering this, East Germany
was a very modern dictatorship.
was a very modern dictatorship.
240
735620
5375
Imajući u vidu sve ovo, Istočna Nemačka
je bila moderna diktatura.
je bila moderna diktatura.
12:32
The Stasi didn't try to arrest every dissident.
241
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4371
Štazi nije pokušavala
da uhapsi svakog disidenta.
da uhapsi svakog disidenta.
12:37
It preferred to paralyze them,
242
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3091
Više su voleli da ih parališu,
12:40
and it could do so because
243
748457
2503
a mogli su da to rade
jer su imali pristup
tolikim ličnim informacijama
tolikim ličnim informacijama
12:42
it had access to so much personal information
244
750960
3350
12:46
and to so many institutions.
245
754310
3930
i tolikim institucijama.
12:50
Detaining someone was used only
246
758240
2272
Pritvaranje ljudi je korišteno samo
12:52
as a last resort.
247
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2530
kao poslednje pribežište.
12:55
For this, the Stasi owned 17 remand prisons,
248
763042
3305
Za te svrhe,
Štazi je posedovala 17 pritvora,
Štazi je posedovala 17 pritvora,
12:58
one in every district.
249
766347
2517
po jedan u svakom okrugu.
13:00
Here, the Stasi also developed
250
768864
2674
Ovde je Štazi, takođe, razvila
13:03
quite modern methods of detention.
251
771538
4442
prilično moderne metode pritvaranja.
13:07
Normally, the interrogation officer
252
775980
1783
Po pravilu, oficir za saslušanja
13:09
didn't torture the prisoner.
253
777763
3463
nije mučio zatvorenika.
13:13
Instead, he used a sophisticated system
254
781226
2576
Umesto toga,
koristio je prefinjeni sistem
koristio je prefinjeni sistem
13:15
of psychological pressure
255
783802
2138
psihološkog pritiska
13:17
in which strict isolation was central.
256
785940
4094
za koji je stroga izolacija
bila najbitnija.
bila najbitnija.
13:22
Nearly no prisoner resisted
257
790034
2284
Skoro da se nijedan zatvorenik nije opirao
13:24
without giving a testimony.
258
792318
3229
svedočenju.
13:27
If you have the occasion,
259
795547
2062
Ukoliko vam se pruži prilika,
13:29
do visit the former Stasi prison in Berlin
260
797609
3451
posetite bivši Štazijev zatvor u Berlinu
13:33
and attend a guided tour
with a former political prisoner
with a former political prisoner
261
801060
3589
i prisustvujte turi čiji je vodič
bivši politički zatvorenik
bivši politički zatvorenik
13:36
who will explain to you how this worked.
262
804649
2856
koji će vam objasniti
kako je ovo funkcionisalo.
kako je ovo funkcionisalo.
13:39
One more question needs to be answered:
263
807505
3159
Moramo odgovoriti na još jedno pitanje:
13:42
If the Stasi were so well organized,
264
810664
2442
ako je Štazi bila
tako dobro organizovana,
tako dobro organizovana,
13:45
why did the Communist regime collapse?
265
813106
4333
zašto je došlo
do sloma komunističkog režima?
do sloma komunističkog režima?
13:49
First, in 1989, the leadership in East Germany
266
817439
4131
Pre svega, 1989. godine
rukovodstvo Istočne Nemačke
rukovodstvo Istočne Nemačke
13:53
was uncertain what to do against
267
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2261
nije bilo sigurno šta da radi protiv
13:55
the growing protest of people.
268
823831
2937
rastućeg nezadovoljstva naroda.
13:58
It was especially confused
269
826768
2351
A naročito su bili zbunjeni
14:01
because in the mother country of socialism,
270
829119
2771
jer je u matičnoj zemlji socijalizma,
14:03
the Soviet Union,
271
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1520
Sovjetskom Savezu,
14:05
a more liberal policy took place.
272
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3383
zavladala liberalnija politika.
14:08
In addition, the regime was dependent
273
836793
2417
Uz sve to, režim je zavisio
14:11
on the loans from the West.
274
839210
3392
od zajmova sa Zapada.
14:14
Therefore, no order to crash down the uprising
275
842602
2548
Stoga, nijedna naredba nije data Štaziju
14:17
was given to the Stasi.
276
845150
3077
da razbije pobunu.
14:20
Secondly, in the Communist ideology,
277
848227
3633
Zatim, u komunističkoj ideologiji
14:23
there's no place for criticism.
278
851860
2653
nema mesta za kritiku.
14:26
Instead, the leadership stuck to the belief
279
854513
2307
Umesto toga, vođe su se držale ubeđenja
14:28
that socialism is a perfect system,
280
856820
2794
da je socijalizam savršen sistem
14:31
and the Stasi had to confirm that, of course.
281
859614
4251
i da Štazi mora to verovanje
i da potkrepi, naravno.
i da potkrepi, naravno.
14:35
The consequence was
282
863865
2361
Posledica toga bila je
14:38
that despite all the information,
283
866226
2496
da, uprkos svim informacijama,
14:40
the regime couldn't analyze its real problems,
284
868722
4164
režim nije mogao
da analizira istinske probleme
da analizira istinske probleme
14:44
and therefore it couldn't solve them.
285
872886
2685
i samim tim nije mogao da ih reši.
14:47
In the end, the Stasi died
286
875571
2704
Konačno, Štazi je uništena
14:50
because of the structures
287
878275
1793
zahvaljujući strukturama
14:52
that it was charged with protecting.
288
880068
3720
koje je bila zadužena da štiti.
14:55
The ending of the Stasi
289
883788
2070
Štazijev kraj
14:57
was something tragic,
290
885858
2047
je bio nešto tragično
14:59
because these officers
291
887905
2059
jer su ovi oficiri
15:01
were kept busy during the peaceful revolution
292
889964
3068
bili zauzeti tokom mirne revolucije
15:05
with only one thing:
293
893032
1975
samo jednom stvari:
15:07
to destroy the documents
294
895007
2653
uništavanjem dokumenata
15:09
they had produced during decades.
295
897660
3691
koje su stvarali decenijama.
15:13
Fortunately,
296
901351
1918
Srećom,
15:15
they had been stopped by human rights activists.
297
903269
3537
zaustavili su ih
aktivisti za ljudska prava.
aktivisti za ljudska prava.
15:18
That's why today we can use the files
298
906806
2926
Zato danas možemo da koristimo dokumenta
15:21
to get a better understanding
299
909732
1624
kako bismo bolje razumeli
15:23
of how a surveillance state functions.
300
911356
2780
kako država pod nadzorom funkcioniše.
15:26
Thank you.
301
914136
1997
Hvala.
15:28
(Applause)
302
916133
4306
(Aplauz)
15:36
Bruno Giussani: Thank you. Thank you very much.
303
924518
6060
Bruno Đusani: Hvala. Mnogo vam hvala.
15:42
So Hubertus, I want to ask you a couple of questions
304
930578
2724
Pa, Hubertuse,
želim da ti postavim par pitanja
želim da ti postavim par pitanja
15:45
because I have here Der Spiegel from last week.
305
933302
2788
jer držim u rukama prošlonedeljni "Špigl".
15:48
"Mein Nachbar NSA." My neighbor, the NSA.
306
936090
4874
"Mein Nachbar NSA." Moj komšija NSA.
15:52
And you just told us about my neighbor,
307
940964
2631
A ti si nam upravo govorio
o mojim komšijama,
o mojim komšijama,
15:55
the spies and the informant from East Germany.
308
943595
2988
špijunima i doušnicima iz Istočne Nemačke.
15:58
So there is a direct link between these two stories
309
946583
2700
Dakle, postoji direktna veza
između ove dve priče,
između ove dve priče,
16:01
or there isn't?
310
949283
1878
ili ne postoji?
16:03
What's your reaction as a
historian when you see this?
historian when you see this?
311
951161
2022
Kako reaguješ kao istoričar,
kad vidiš ovo?
kad vidiš ovo?
16:05
Hubertus Knabe: I think there are
312
953183
1725
Hunertus Knabe: Mislim da bi trebalo
16:06
several aspects to mention.
313
954908
1903
pomenuti nekoliko aspekata.
16:08
At first, I think there's a difference
314
956811
3066
Kao prvo, mislim da postoji razlika
16:11
of why you are collecting this data.
315
959877
4088
u tome zašto sakupljate ove podatke.
16:15
Are you doing that for protecting your people
316
963965
2318
Da li to radite da zaštitite svoj narod
16:18
against terrorist attacks,
317
966283
1547
od terorističkih napada
16:19
or are you doing that for oppressing your people?
318
967830
2770
ili to radite
radi ugnjetavanja svog naroda?
radi ugnjetavanja svog naroda?
16:22
So that makes a fundamental difference.
319
970600
1942
U tome je osnovna razlika.
16:24
But on the other hand,
320
972542
2349
Ali, s druge strane,
16:26
also in a democracy, these
instruments can be abused,
instruments can be abused,
321
974891
4319
i u demokratiji ovi instrumenti
mogu da se zloupotrebe
mogu da se zloupotrebe
16:31
and that is something where we really have
322
979210
2166
i to je nešto čega uistinu moramo
16:33
to be aware to stop that,
323
981376
1385
da budemo svesni da bi to zaustavili
16:34
and that also the intelligence services
324
982761
2873
i da, takođe, obaveštajne službe
16:37
are respecting the rules we have.
325
985634
3121
moraju da poštuju postojeće zakone.
16:40
The third point, probably,
326
988755
1500
Treća stvar, verovatno,
16:42
we really can be happy that we live in a democracy,
327
990255
3288
mi zaista možemo da budemo srećni
jer živimo u demokratiji,
jer živimo u demokratiji,
16:45
because you can be sure that Russia and China
328
993543
3680
jer budite sigurni da Rusija i Kina
16:49
are doing the same,
329
997223
1532
rade isto to,
16:50
but nobody speaks about that
330
998755
1566
ali niko ne govori o tome
16:52
because nobody could do that.
331
1000321
2291
jer niko ne sme to da radi.
16:54
(Applause)
332
1002612
4964
(Aplauz)
17:01
BG: When the story came out first,
333
1009398
2053
BĐ: Kada je priča prvi put objavljena,
17:03
last July, last year,
334
1011451
2195
prošlog jula prošle godine,
17:05
you filed a criminal complaint
335
1013646
2828
podneli ste krivičnu prijavu
17:08
with a German tribunal. Why?
336
1016474
2980
Nemačkom sudu. Zašto?
17:11
HK: Yeah, I did so because of
the second point I mentioned,
the second point I mentioned,
337
1019454
3213
HK: Da, uradio sam to zbog druge stvari
koju sam pomenuo,
koju sam pomenuo,
17:14
that I think especially in a democracy,
338
1022667
2897
ja verujem da, naročito u demokratiji
17:17
the rules are for everybody.
339
1025564
3458
pravila postoje za svakoga.
17:21
They are made for everybody, so it's not allowed
340
1029022
2364
Napravljena su za svakoga,
zato je nedopustivo
zato je nedopustivo
17:23
that any institution doesn't respect the rules.
341
1031386
3791
da bilo koja institucija
ne poštuje pravila.
ne poštuje pravila.
17:27
In the criminal code of Germany, it's written
342
1035177
1978
U nemačkom krivičnom zakonu stoji
17:29
that it's not allowed to tap somebody
343
1037155
1855
da nije dozvoljeno prisluškivanje nekoga
17:31
without the permission of the judge.
344
1039010
2388
bez sudske dozvole.
17:33
Fortunately, it's written in
the criminal code of Germany,
the criminal code of Germany,
345
1041398
3821
Srećom, tako je napisano
u nemačkom krivičnom zakonu,
u nemačkom krivičnom zakonu,
17:37
so if it's not respected, then I think
346
1045219
3931
te stoga ukoliko se ne poštuje,
onda mislim
onda mislim
17:41
an investigation is necessary,
347
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da je istraga neophodna
17:43
and it took a very long time that
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i trebalo je mnogo vremena
17:45
the public prosecutor of Germany started this,
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da nemački javni tužilac otvori istragu,
17:47
and he started it only in the case of Angela Merkel,
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a otvorio je samo u slučaju Angele Merkel,
17:50
and not in the case of all the
other people living in Germany.
other people living in Germany.
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ne i u slučaju ostalih ljudi
koji žive u Nemačkoj.
koji žive u Nemačkoj.
17:53
BG: That doesn't surprise me because —
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BĐ: To me iznenađuje zbog -
17:56
(Applause) —
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(Aplauz) -
17:58
because of the story you told.
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zbog priče koju si ispričao.
18:01
Seen from the outside, I live outside of Germany,
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Gledano spolja, ja ne živim u Nemačkoj,
18:04
and I expected the Germans to react
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očekivao sam da će Nemci reagovati
18:05
much more strongly, immediately.
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mnogo snažnije, istog momenta.
18:09
And instead, the reaction really came only
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Umesto toga, reakcija je došla tek
kada je otkriveno
da je kancelarka Merkel prisluškivana.
da je kancelarka Merkel prisluškivana.
18:11
when Chancellor Merkel was revealed
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18:13
as being wiretapped. Why so?
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Zašto je to tako?
18:17
HK: I take it as a good sign,
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HK: Ja to shvatam kao dobar znak,
18:19
because people feel secure in this democracy.
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zato što se ljudi
osećaju sigurno u ovoj demokratiji,
osećaju sigurno u ovoj demokratiji,
18:23
They aren't afraid that they will be arrested,
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nije ih strah da će da budu uhapšeni
18:25
and if you leave this hall after the conference,
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i kada napustite ovu salu,
nakon konferencije
nakon konferencije
18:28
nobody has to be afraid that the secret police
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niko ne mora da strahuje da tajna policija
18:31
is standing out and is arresting you.
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stoji napolju i čeka da vas uhapsi.
18:33
So that's a good sign, I think.
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Dakle, to je dobar znak, mislim.
18:35
People are not really scared, as they could be.
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Ljude nije zaista strah,
kao što bi moglo da bude.
kao što bi moglo da bude.
18:38
But of course, I think, the institutions
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Ali, naravno, mislim da institucije
18:42
are responsible to stop illegal actions
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imaju odgovornost
da zaustave ilegalne aktivnosti
da zaustave ilegalne aktivnosti
18:45
in Germany or wherever they happen.
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u Nemačkoj, ili bilo gde drugo.
18:48
BG: A personal question,
and this is the last one.
and this is the last one.
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BĐ: Jedno lično pitanje,
i biće i poslednje.
i biće i poslednje.
18:51
There has been a debate in Germany about
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Bila je debata u Nemačkoj
o odobravanju azila Eduardu Snoudenu.
18:53
granting asylum to Edward Snowden.
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18:55
Would you be in favor or against?
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Da li ste za ili protiv ovoga?
18:58
HK: Oh, that's a difficult question,
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HK: Uh, to je teško pitanje,
18:59
but if you ask me,
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ali ako mene pitate
19:01
and if I answer honestly,
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i, ako bih iskreno odgovorio,
19:03
I would give him the asylum,
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dao bih mu azil
19:04
because I think it was really brave what he did,
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jer mislim da je zaista hrabro
ono što je uradio
ono što je uradio
19:06
and he destroyed his whole life
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i uništio je čitav svoj život,
19:09
and his family and everything.
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svoju porodicu i sve.
19:11
So I think, for these people,
we should do something,
we should do something,
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Zato mislim da moramo
da učinimo nešto za te ljude,
da učinimo nešto za te ljude,
19:14
and especially if you see the German history,
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a naročito ako pogledate nemačku istoriju,
19:18
where so many people had to escape
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gde je toliko ljudi moralo da pobegne
19:21
and they asked for asylum in other countries
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i da traži azil u drugim državama,
19:23
and they didn't get it,
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a nisu ga dobili,
19:24
so it would be a good sign to give him asylum.
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zato bi bio dobar znak,
ako bismo njemu dali azil.
ako bismo njemu dali azil.
19:27
(Applause)
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(Aplauz)
19:29
BG: Hubertus, thank you very much.
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BĐ: Hubertuse, mnogo vam hvala.
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Hubertus Knabe - HistorianHubertus Knabe studies the history of torture, oppression and surveillance in former East Germany.
Why you should listen
Hubertus Knabe is a historian and the scientific director of Berlin-Hohenschönhausen Memorial, where he studies the inner workings of the East German Ministry of State Security (MfS) -- or Stasi -- between 1945 and 1989. The memorial, once the main remand prison used by the Stasi, is devoted to raising awareness of the brutal oppression that once stemmed from the agency. Before the fall of the Berlin Wall Knabe was under surveillance himself, for smuggling banned books from the West into East Germany. He is the author of over a dozen books on German history, including 17. Juni 1953 - Ein deutscher Aufstand.
More profile about the speakerHubertus Knabe | Speaker | TED.com