TEDSalon Berlin 2014
Hubertus Knabe: The dark secrets of a surveillance state
胡貝圖斯．克納貝: 受監視國家的黑暗秘密
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參訪前東德國家安全局史塔西至深的黑暗世界。史塔西以監視其人民方面獨一無二的厲害，史塔西策劃了監視系統和心理壓力，從而掌控國家數十年，直到1989年柏林圍牆倒塌。胡貝圖斯．克納貝研究史塔西，並且也曾被他們監督。他分享一個受監視國家衰敗的驚人細節，並展現鄰里之間的背叛是何等容易。
Hubertus Knabe - Historian
Hubertus Knabe studies the history of torture, oppression and surveillance in former East Germany. Full bio
Hubertus Knabe studies the history of torture, oppression and surveillance in former East Germany. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
This year, Germany is celebrating
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這一年，德國正在慶祝
00:14
the 25th anniversary of the peaceful revolution
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前東德二十五週年
和平革命紀念日。
00:17
in East Germany.
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00:19
In 1989, the Communist regime was moved away,
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1989 年，共產主義政權垮台、
00:23
the Berlin Wall came down, and one year later,
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柏林圍牆倒塌，並且在一年後，
00:27
the German Democratic Republic, the GDR,
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東邊的德意志民主共和國
簡稱GDR
00:31
in the East was unified
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和西邊的德意志聯邦共和國統一
00:33
with the Federal Republic of Germany in the West
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00:35
to found today's Germany.
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成為今日的德國。
00:39
Among many other things, Germany inherited
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最重要的是，
德國承接前東德秘密警察的檔案，
00:42
the archives of the East German secret police,
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00:47
known as the Stasi.
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稱為史塔西（即國家安全部）。
00:50
Only two years after its dissolution,
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僅僅在前東德政權崩解二年後，
00:52
its documents were opened to the public,
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它的文件檔案就被公諸於世，
00:56
and historians such as me started
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而跟我一樣的歷史學家們
就開始研究這些文件，
00:59
to study these documents
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01:01
to learn more about how the GDR surveillance state
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想了解前東德的監控機制
01:05
functioned.
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如何運作。
01:07
Perhaps you have watched the movie
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也許你已經看過那部電影
01:10
"The Lives of Others."
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《竊聽風暴》。
01:12
This movie made the Stasi known worldwide,
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這部電影讓史塔西名揚全球。
01:17
and as we live in an age where words
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生長在一個
01:19
such as "surveillance" or "wiretapping"
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「監視」或「竊聽」等字眼
01:23
are on the front pages of newspapers,
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常出現在報紙頭條的年代，
01:25
I would like to speak about how the Stasi
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我很樂意分享史塔西
01:28
really worked.
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實際上是如何運作的。
01:31
At the beginning, let's have a short look
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首先，我們先簡單地回顧
01:33
at the history of the Stasi,
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史塔西的歷史，
01:35
because it's really important for understanding
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因為這很重要，有助於我們了解
01:38
its self-conception.
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它所代表的意義。
01:41
Its origins are located in Russia.
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史塔西首先發源於俄羅斯。
01:44
In 1917, the Russian Communists founded
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1917 年，俄羅斯的共產主義者成立了
01:46
the Emergency Commission for Combating
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全俄肅清反革命
01:48
Counter-Revolution and Sabotage,
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及怠工非常委員會，
01:51
shortly Cheka.
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簡稱為契卡。
01:53
It was led by Felix Dzerzhinsky.
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由費利克斯·捷爾任斯基領導。
01:56
The Cheka was an instrument of the Communists
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作為共產黨建立暴權的手段，
02:00
to establish their regime by terrorizing the population
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在人們身上施與恐怖統治，
02:03
and executing their enemies.
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對敵人處以死刑，
02:06
It evolved later into the well-known KGB.
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後來演變為眾所皆知的 KGB
（蘇聯國家安全委員會）。
（蘇聯國家安全委員會）。
02:12
The Cheka was the idol of the Stasi officers.
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契卡是史塔西特工崇拜的委員會，
02:15
They called themselves Chekists,
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他們稱呼自己是契卡人，
02:18
and even the emblem was very similar,
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甚至你可以看到
02:21
as you can see here.
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他們的標織非常相似。
02:24
In fact, the secret police of Russia
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事實上，這些俄羅斯秘密警察
02:28
was the creator and instructor of the Stasi.
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就是主導創立史塔西的關鍵。
02:31
When the Red Army occupied East Germany in 1945,
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1945 年，當蘇聯紅軍佔領東德時
02:35
it immediately expanded there,
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紅軍勢力立即擴展到那裡，
02:37
and soon it started to train the German Communists
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很快地對德國共產黨展開訓練
02:41
to build up their own secret police.
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建立他們專屬的秘密警察。
02:44
By the way, in this hall where we are now,
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順道一提，我們現在所在的這棟大廳，
02:47
the ruling party of the GDR was founded in 1946.
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前東德執政黨成立於 1946 年。
02:53
Five years later, the Stasi was established,
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五年後正式成立史塔西，
02:56
and step by step, the dirty job of oppression
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漸漸地，這種卑鄙壓迫的工作
02:59
was handed over to it.
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已轉交給史塔西。
03:02
For instance, the central jail
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舉一個例子，
政治犯的中央監獄，
03:04
for political prisoners,
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03:05
which was established by the Russians,
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是由俄羅斯成立，
03:08
was taken over by the Stasi
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由史塔西接管和利用
03:10
and used until the end of Communism.
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直到共產主義末期。
03:14
You see it here.
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你看這裡。
03:15
At the beginning, every important step
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最初，每個重要的步驟
03:19
took place under the attendance of the Russians.
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都在蘇聯的參與下進行。
03:23
But the Germans are known to be very effective,
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但是德國人非常有效率，
03:26
so the Stasi grew very quickly,
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因此史塔西成長得非常快速，
03:29
and already in 1953, it had more employees
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早在 1953 年，比蓋世太保
03:33
than the Gestapo had,
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更多的職員，
03:34
the secret police of Nazi Germany.
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即納粹德國密秘警察。
03:37
The number doubled in each decade.
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每十年人數增加一倍。
03:40
In 1989, more than 90,000 employees
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1989 年，超過九萬名職員
03:43
worked for the Stasi.
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為史塔西工作。
03:45
This meant that one employee
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意指一名職員
03:47
was responsible for 180 inhabitants,
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負責 180 位居民，
03:50
which was really unique in the world.
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在這世界上非常獨特。
03:54
At the top of this tremendous apparatus,
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在這個巨大機制的頂端，
03:57
there was one man, Erich Mielke.
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有一個男人名叫埃里希·梅爾克。
04:01
He ruled the Ministry of State Security
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他掌控了國家安全局
04:03
for more than 30 years.
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超過 30 年的時間。
04:05
He was a scrupulous functionary —
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他是一位一絲不苟，小心謹慎的黨員，
04:08
in his past, he killed two policemen
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他過去曾殺過兩名警察，
04:11
not far away from here —
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就在距離這裡不遠的地方，
04:13
who in fact personalized the Stasi.
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也是他把史塔西擬人化。
04:17
But what was so exceptional about the Stasi?
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但是史塔西特殊的地方在哪裡？
04:21
Foremost, it was its enormous power,
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首先，是它本身巨大的權力，
04:24
because it united different functions
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因為它以一個組織
04:28
in one organization.
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結合不同的功能。
04:30
First of all, the Stasi
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第一，
史塔西是個情報機構。
04:32
was an intelligence service.
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04:35
It used all the imaginable instruments
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它利用所有可想像的工具
04:38
for getting information secretly,
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秘密地收集資訊，
04:40
such as informers, or tapping phones,
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例如告密者，或竊聽電話者，
04:43
as you can see it on the picture here.
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你可以在這張照片上看到。
04:46
And it was not only active in East Germany,
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這不止活躍於東德，
04:49
but all over the world.
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而是全世界。
04:52
Secondly, the Stasi was a secret police.
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第二，史塔西是種秘密警察。
04:56
It could stop people on the street
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它可以阻止在街上的人民
04:58
and arrest them in its own prisons.
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將他們逮捕到自建的監獄。
05:03
Thirdly, the Stasi worked
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第三，史塔西的工作
05:04
as a kind of public prosecutor.
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是扮演一種檢察官角色。
05:07
It had the right to open preliminary investigations
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它有權利展開初步調查
05:10
and to interrogate people officially.
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並正式質問人民。
05:14
Last but not least,
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最後一點，
05:16
the Stasi had its own armed forces.
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史塔西有自己的軍事力量。
05:20
More than 11,000 soldiers were serving
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超過一萬一千名軍人
05:22
in its so-called Guards Regiment.
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服務著這個所謂的警察團，
05:25
It was founded to crash down protests and uprisings.
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旨在打擊示威遊行和暴動。
05:30
Due to this concentration of power,
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由於權力集中，
05:32
the Stasi was called a state in the state.
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史塔西稱為國家中的國家。
05:37
But let's look in more and more detail
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但是讓我們來看看更多
05:40
at the tools of the Stasi.
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史塔西運用工具的細節。
05:42
Please keep in mind that at that time
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請記得在那個年代
05:44
the web and smartphones were not yet invented.
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網路和智慧型手機都還未出現。
05:48
Of course, the Stasi used all kinds
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當然，史塔西利用
各種電子工具調查人們。
05:51
of technical instruments to survey people.
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05:54
Telephones were wiretapped,
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電話遭裝設竊聽器，
05:56
including the phone of the
German chancellor in the West,
German chancellor in the West,
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包括西德總理的電話，
06:00
and often also the apartments.
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經常都是公寓遭到竊聽。
06:03
Every day, 90,000 letters were being opened
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每天有九萬封信
06:07
by these machines.
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被這些機器拆開。
06:10
The Stasi also shadowed
tens of thousands of people
tens of thousands of people
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史塔西還跟蹤窺伺成千上萬的人，
06:14
using specially trained agents and secret cameras
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利用受過特訓的間諜和秘密相機
06:17
to document every step one took.
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以記錄人們所做的每一步。
06:21
In this picture, you can see me
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這張照片裡，你可以看到
06:23
as a young man just in front of this building
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當時年輕的我就站在這座建築前面，
06:27
where we are now, photographed by a Stasi agent.
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我們現在所處的位置
是史塔西特務拍攝我的地方。
是史塔西特務拍攝我的地方。
06:30
The Stasi even collected the smell of people.
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史塔西甚至搜集人體氣味。
06:35
It stored samples of it in closed jars
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密封罐收藏了人體氣味的樣本，
06:38
which were found after the peaceful revolution.
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在和平革命後被找到。
06:43
For all these tasks, highly specialized departments
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這些所有形式的任務，
由高度專業化的部門負責。
06:47
were responsible.
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06:49
The one which was tapping phone calls
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竊聽電話
06:51
was completely separated
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和掌控書信
06:53
from the one which controlled the letters,
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由完全不一樣的特務負責，
06:56
for good reasons,
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原因很明顯，
06:57
because if one agent quit the Stasi,
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因為如果有位特務退出史塔西，
07:02
his knowledge was very small.
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他所知道的知識就非常狹小。
07:04
Contrast that with Snowden, for example.
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舉個例子，跟史諾登事件的情況相反。
07:08
But the vertical specialization was also important
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但是垂直化的專業分工合作
07:11
to prevent all kinds of empathy
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對防止各種觀察對象的同理移情
07:13
with the object of observation.
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也很重要。
07:16
The agent who shadowed me
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監視我的特務
07:18
didn't know who I was
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並不知道我是誰
07:20
or why I was surveyed.
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或為什麼我被調查。
07:22
In fact, I smuggled forbidden books
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事實上，我走私禁書
07:24
from West to East Germany.
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從西方國家到前東德。
07:27
But what was even more typical for the Stasi
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但是更典型的史塔西
07:30
was the use of human intelligence,
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是利用人類的聰明才智，
07:33
people who reported secretly to the Stasi.
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人們可以秘密通報史塔西。
07:37
For the Minister of State Security,
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對於國家安全局，
07:39
these so-called unofficial employees
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這些所謂非正式職員
07:42
were the most important tools.
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是最重要的工具。
07:45
From 1975 on, nearly 200,000 people
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從 1975 年開始，近二十萬人民
07:50
collaborated constantly with the Stasi,
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一直不斷地和史塔西合作，
07:53
more than one percent of the population.
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超過人口的 1%。
07:58
And in a way, the minister was right,
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也可以這麼說，部長是對的，
08:00
because technical instruments
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因為科技儀器
08:02
can only register what people are doing,
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只能記載人們做了什麼事情，
08:06
but agents and spies can also report
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但是特務和間謀可以回報
08:09
what people are planning to do
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人們在計劃什麼事情
08:11
and what they are thinking.
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及他們在想什麼。
08:13
Therefore, the Stasi recruited so many informants.
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因此，史塔西招募很多線民。
08:18
The system of how to get them
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招募他們
08:21
and how to educate them, as it was called,
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和「教育」他們的系統，
他們是這樣宣稱的，
他們是這樣宣稱的，
08:24
was very sophisticated.
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非常複雜精細。
08:27
The Stasi had its own university,
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史塔西有自己的大學，
08:30
not far away from here,
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離這裡不遠，
08:31
where the methods were explored
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探討方法
08:33
and taught to the officers.
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和教導職員。
08:36
This guideline gave a detailed description
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這本指南提供了詳細的
08:39
of every step you have to take
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所有你必須執行的步驟說明，
08:42
if you want to convince human beings
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要如何說服別人
08:44
to betray their fellow citizens.
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背叛他們的同胞。
08:48
Sometimes it's said that informants were pressured
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有時可以說線民
08:52
to becoming one,
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被迫成為一個背叛的人，
08:53
but that's mostly not true,
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但大多時候都不是真的，
08:56
because a forced informant is a bad informant.
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因為一個受強迫的線民
是一個差勁的線民。
是一個差勁的線民。
09:00
Only someone who wants to give
you the information you need
you the information you need
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只有在某個人願意提供你需要的資料時
09:03
is an effective whistleblower.
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才是一個有效率的告密者。
09:05
The main reasons why people
cooperated with the Stasi
cooperated with the Stasi
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人們和史塔西合作的主要理由
09:10
were political conviction and material benefits.
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是政治信念和物質利益。
09:16
The officers also tried to create a personal bond
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特務也試圖創立一個個人牢固的連結
09:19
between themselves and the informant,
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在他們自己與線民之間，
09:22
and to be honest, the example of the Stasi shows
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老實說，史塔西的例子顯示
09:28
that it's not so difficult to win someone
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為了背叛他人
09:31
in order to betray others.
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要贏得一個人信任並沒有這麼難。
09:34
Even some of the top dissidents in East Germany
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即使是前東德一些上層的反對者
09:38
collaborated with the Stasi,
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也和史塔西合作，
09:40
as for instance Ibrahim Böhme.
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例如，伊布拉西·博梅。
09:44
In 1989, he was the leader of the peaceful revolution
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1989 年，他是和平主義的領導人
09:46
and he nearly became the first freely
elected Prime Minister of the GDR
elected Prime Minister of the GDR
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他幾乎成為第一個
自由票選出來的前東德總理
自由票選出來的前東德總理
09:51
until it came out that he was an informant.
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直到後來被揭露出
他曾經是一位線民。
他曾經是一位線民。
09:56
The net of spies was really broad.
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間諜網脈真的很廣泛。
10:00
In nearly every institution,
192
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幾乎存在於每個機構，
10:02
even in the churches or in West Germany,
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即便是教堂或西德，
10:05
there were many of them.
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那裡有很多的線民。
10:07
I remember telling a leading Stasi officer,
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我記得跟史塔西特務的領導人說，
10:11
"If you had sent an informant to me,
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「如果你把線民叫來給我看，
10:14
I would surely have recognized him."
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我一定可以認出他來。」
10:17
His answer was,
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他的回答是，
10:18
"We didn't send anyone.
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「我們沒有派任何線民。
10:20
We took those who were around you."
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我們選了你周圍的人當線民。」
10:23
And in fact, two of my best friends
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事實是，二個我最好的朋友
10:26
reported about me to the Stasi.
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向史塔西舉發我。
10:30
Not only in my case, informers were very close.
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不只是我的例子，
告密者的關係很緊密。
告密者的關係很緊密。
10:32
For example, Vera Lengsfeld,
another leading dissident,
another leading dissident,
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例如，倫斯斐德，
另一個反對者領袖，
另一個反對者領袖，
10:36
in her case it was her husband who spied on her.
205
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4213
她的案例是，監視她的是她丈夫。
10:40
A famous writer was betrayed by his brother.
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3353
一個有名的作家遭到他的兄弟背叛。
10:44
This reminds me of the novel "1984" by George Orwell,
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3892
這提醒我喬治·歐威爾
寫的小說《一九八四》，
寫的小說《一九八四》，
10:48
where the only apparently trustable person
208
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3079
顯然只有可信的人
10:51
was an informer.
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2813
是一位告密者。
10:54
But why did the Stasi collect all this information
210
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3697
但是為什麼史塔西要收集這些資料
10:57
in its archives?
211
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1921
到它的檔案庫裡？
10:59
The main purpose was to control the society.
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主要目的是控制社會。
11:03
In nearly every speech, the Stasi minister
213
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2583
幾乎每場演講，史塔西總理
11:06
gave the order to find out who is who,
214
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2722
下了指令找出誰是誰，
11:09
which meant who thinks what.
215
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3094
也就是要知道誰在想什麼。
11:12
He didn't want to wait until somebody
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1751
他不想等到有人
11:13
tried to act against the regime.
217
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2520
試圖對抗政權。
11:16
He wanted to know in advance
218
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1890
他想事先知道
11:18
what people were thinking and planning.
219
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2895
人們在想什麼和計劃什麼。
11:21
The East Germans knew, of course,
220
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2822
當然前東德知道，
11:23
that they were surrounded by informers,
221
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他們有線民圍繞，
11:27
in a totalitarian regime that created mistrust
222
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3973
集權主義創造了猜疑
11:31
and a state of widespread fear,
223
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3094
和一個國家普遍的恐懼，
11:34
the most important tools to oppress people
224
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3516
是任何專治獨裁中
11:37
in any dictatorship.
225
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2159
欺壓人民最重要的工具。
11:39
That's why not many East Germans tried
226
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2603
這就是為什麼沒有很多前東德人試圖
11:42
to fight against the Communist regime.
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對抗共產主義政權。
11:46
If yes, the Stasi often used a method
228
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4582
如果是這樣，史塔西經常利用
一個真的很殘暴方法。
11:51
which was really diabolic.
229
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2672
11:54
It was called Zersetzung,
230
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叫作分崩離析。
11:56
and it's described in another guideline.
231
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另一本指南上有描述。
11:59
The word is difficult to translate because it means
232
707907
2800
用文字很難詮釋因為
它原本的意思是「生物分解」。
12:02
originally "biodegradation."
233
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3898
12:06
But actually, it's a quite accurate description.
234
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3354
但其實，這是非常準確的描述。
12:09
The goal was to destroy secretly
235
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目標是秘密摧毀
12:13
the self-confidence of people,
236
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2890
自信的人民，
12:16
for example by damaging their reputation,
237
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3113
例如破壞他們的名譽，
12:19
by organizing failures in their work,
238
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在他們的工作中製造失敗，
12:22
and by destroying their personal relationships.
239
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摧毀他們個人的友誼。
12:27
Considering this, East Germany
was a very modern dictatorship.
was a very modern dictatorship.
240
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5375
仔細想想，前東德
是非常的現代化專治獨裁。
是非常的現代化專治獨裁。
12:32
The Stasi didn't try to arrest every dissident.
241
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4371
史塔西沒有企圖逮捕每個反對者。
12:37
It preferred to paralyze them,
242
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比較傾向讓他們氣餒，
12:40
and it could do so because
243
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2503
這是可行的，因為
12:42
it had access to so much personal information
244
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3350
它獲得了大量的個人資料
12:46
and to so many institutions.
245
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3930
及大量的團體機構。
12:50
Detaining someone was used only
246
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2272
拘捕某人只用在
12:52
as a last resort.
247
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最後的一個手段。
12:55
For this, the Stasi owned 17 remand prisons,
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3305
為此，史塔西擁有 19 座監獄，
12:58
one in every district.
249
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2517
每個州至少一個。
13:00
Here, the Stasi also developed
250
768864
2674
這裡，史塔西也發展
13:03
quite modern methods of detention.
251
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4442
相當現代化的拘捕方法。
13:07
Normally, the interrogation officer
252
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1783
一般來說，審問員
13:09
didn't torture the prisoner.
253
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3463
沒有折磨囚犯。
13:13
Instead, he used a sophisticated system
254
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2576
相反的，他利用精細複雜的
13:15
of psychological pressure
255
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2138
心理壓力系統
13:17
in which strict isolation was central.
256
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4094
這點是嚴密隔離的重要核心。
13:22
Nearly no prisoner resisted
257
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2284
幾乎沒有囚犯拒絕
13:24
without giving a testimony.
258
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3229
不願意提供證詞。
13:27
If you have the occasion,
259
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2062
如果你有這種偶然的境遇，
13:29
do visit the former Stasi prison in Berlin
260
797609
3451
去參觀柏林的前秘密警察監獄
13:33
and attend a guided tour
with a former political prisoner
with a former political prisoner
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801060
3589
參加有導遊與前政治犯帶領的導覽，
13:36
who will explain to you how this worked.
262
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2856
他們會告訴你這個系統如何運作。
13:39
One more question needs to be answered:
263
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3159
還一個問題需要回答：
13:42
If the Stasi were so well organized,
264
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2442
如果史塔西組織運作得這麼好，
13:45
why did the Communist regime collapse?
265
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4333
為什麼共產政權會垮台？
13:49
First, in 1989, the leadership in East Germany
266
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4131
第一點，1989 年，前東德的領導
13:53
was uncertain what to do against
267
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2261
不確定該怎麼做
13:55
the growing protest of people.
268
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2937
來抵擋逐漸增加的反抗人群。
13:58
It was especially confused
269
826768
2351
這點令人特別困擾，
14:01
because in the mother country of socialism,
270
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2771
因為在社會主義的祖國
14:03
the Soviet Union,
271
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1520
蘇聯，
14:05
a more liberal policy took place.
272
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3383
更自由的政策產生了。
14:08
In addition, the regime was dependent
273
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2417
此外，政權依賴
14:11
on the loans from the West.
274
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3392
來自西方的貸款。
14:14
Therefore, no order to crash down the uprising
275
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2548
所以，史塔西沒有給出
14:17
was given to the Stasi.
276
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3077
要求鎮壓暴動的指令
14:20
Secondly, in the Communist ideology,
277
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3633
第二，共產主義的思想，
14:23
there's no place for criticism.
278
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2653
不能有批評的空間。
14:26
Instead, the leadership stuck to the belief
279
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2307
相反的，領導層堅信
14:28
that socialism is a perfect system,
280
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2794
社會主義是個完美的系統，
14:31
and the Stasi had to confirm that, of course.
281
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4251
當然史塔西已經證實。
14:35
The consequence was
282
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2361
結果是
14:38
that despite all the information,
283
866226
2496
僅管所有的資訊，
14:40
the regime couldn't analyze its real problems,
284
868722
4164
政權無法分析本身真正的問題，
14:44
and therefore it couldn't solve them.
285
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2685
所以沒有辦法解決問題。
14:47
In the end, the Stasi died
286
875571
2704
最後史塔西滅亡，
14:50
because of the structures
287
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1793
是因為
14:52
that it was charged with protecting.
288
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3720
它所保護的結構瓦解。
14:55
The ending of the Stasi
289
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2070
史塔西的結束
14:57
was something tragic,
290
885858
2047
是某種悲劇，
14:59
because these officers
291
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2059
因為這些特務
15:01
were kept busy during the peaceful revolution
292
889964
3068
在和平的革命期間一直都
15:05
with only one thing:
293
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1975
只忙著一件事：
15:07
to destroy the documents
294
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2653
銷毀所有文件
15:09
they had produced during decades.
295
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3691
數十年間所製作的文件。
15:13
Fortunately,
296
901351
1918
幸好，
15:15
they had been stopped by human rights activists.
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3537
人權主義者阻止了他們。
15:18
That's why today we can use the files
298
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2926
這就是為什麼我們可以利用這些檔案
15:21
to get a better understanding
299
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1624
更清楚了解
15:23
of how a surveillance state functions.
300
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2780
受監視的國家如何運轉。
15:26
Thank you.
301
914136
1997
謝謝
15:28
(Applause)
302
916133
4306
（鼓掌）
15:36
Bruno Giussani: Thank you. Thank you very much.
303
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6060
布魯諾·吉桑尼：非常謝謝你。
15:42
So Hubertus, I want to ask you a couple of questions
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2724
胡貝圖斯，我想問你幾個問題
15:45
because I have here Der Spiegel from last week.
305
933302
2788
因為我這裡有上週發行的明鏡周刊，
15:48
"Mein Nachbar NSA." My neighbor, the NSA.
306
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4874
「我家鄰居，國家安全局」。
15:52
And you just told us about my neighbor,
307
940964
2631
你剛才分享關於我們鄰居的事情，
15:55
the spies and the informant from East Germany.
308
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2988
來自關於前東德的間諜和線民。
15:58
So there is a direct link between these two stories
309
946583
2700
所以這二個故事之間
16:01
or there isn't?
310
949283
1878
有沒有直接的連結關係？
16:03
What's your reaction as a
historian when you see this?
historian when you see this?
311
951161
2022
當你看到這則故事時，
你的反應是什麼？
你的反應是什麼？
16:05
Hubertus Knabe: I think there are
312
953183
1725
胡貝圖斯．克納貝：我認為
16:06
several aspects to mention.
313
954908
1903
需要註明一下幾個觀點
16:08
At first, I think there's a difference
314
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3066
首先，我認為有一個差異點是
16:11
of why you are collecting this data.
315
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4088
我們為什麼要搜集這些資料。
16:15
Are you doing that for protecting your people
316
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2318
我們做那件事情
是為了保護我們的人民
是為了保護我們的人民
16:18
against terrorist attacks,
317
966283
1547
對抗恐怖主義？
16:19
or are you doing that for oppressing your people?
318
967830
2770
或我們做那件事情
是為了欺壓我們的人民？
是為了欺壓我們的人民？
16:22
So that makes a fundamental difference.
319
970600
1942
所以這是一個基本的差異。
16:24
But on the other hand,
320
972542
2349
但在另一方面，
16:26
also in a democracy, these
instruments can be abused,
instruments can be abused,
321
974891
4319
在一個民主國家中，
這些工具也可能被濫用，
這些工具也可能被濫用，
16:31
and that is something where we really have
322
979210
2166
這正是我們真的必須
16:33
to be aware to stop that,
323
981376
1385
仔細留意的地方，
16:34
and that also the intelligence services
324
982761
2873
這也是情報服務
16:37
are respecting the rules we have.
325
985634
3121
遵守我們定下的規則。
16:40
The third point, probably,
326
988755
1500
第三個觀點，也許，
16:42
we really can be happy that we live in a democracy,
327
990255
3288
我們真的可以快樂地
住在一個民主國家，
住在一個民主國家，
16:45
because you can be sure that Russia and China
328
993543
3680
因為你可以確定蘇聯和中國
16:49
are doing the same,
329
997223
1532
在做一樣的事情，
16:50
but nobody speaks about that
330
998755
1566
卻沒人談論這個話題
16:52
because nobody could do that.
331
1000321
2291
因為沒人敢碰觸它。
16:54
(Applause)
332
1002612
4964
（掌聲）
17:01
BG: When the story came out first,
333
1009398
2053
布魯諾：當故事首度刊登在這份雜誌，
17:03
last July, last year,
334
1011451
2195
去年七月，
17:05
you filed a criminal complaint
335
1013646
2828
你提出一份
17:08
with a German tribunal. Why?
336
1016474
2980
與德國法庭的刑事訴訟，為什麼？
17:11
HK: Yeah, I did so because of
the second point I mentioned,
the second point I mentioned,
337
1019454
3213
胡貝圖斯：是的，我這麼做
是因為我談到的第二個觀點，
是因為我談到的第二個觀點，
17:14
that I think especially in a democracy,
338
1022667
2897
我認為特別是在民主國家，
17:17
the rules are for everybody.
339
1025564
3458
規則是每個人共有的。
17:21
They are made for everybody, so it's not allowed
340
1029022
2364
規則是為每個人制訂的，所以不允許
17:23
that any institution doesn't respect the rules.
341
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3791
任何機構不遵守規則。
17:27
In the criminal code of Germany, it's written
342
1035177
1978
德國刑法記載
17:29
that it's not allowed to tap somebody
343
1037155
1855
沒有經過法官的允許
17:31
without the permission of the judge.
344
1039010
2388
不可以竊聽別人談話。
17:33
Fortunately, it's written in
the criminal code of Germany,
the criminal code of Germany,
345
1041398
3821
幸運的是，這條規定有編入德國刑法，
17:37
so if it's not respected, then I think
346
1045219
3931
所以如果有人不遵守這條規定，
那麼我認為調查是必要的，
17:41
an investigation is necessary,
347
1049150
1896
17:43
and it took a very long time that
348
1051046
1979
這花了很長的一段時間
17:45
the public prosecutor of Germany started this,
349
1053025
2106
使德國檢察官開始進行調查，
17:47
and he started it only in the case of Angela Merkel,
350
1055131
3571
他開始著手調查只因為
安格拉·梅克爾的事件，
安格拉·梅克爾的事件，
17:50
and not in the case of all the
other people living in Germany.
other people living in Germany.
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不是住在德國的全體人民。
17:53
BG: That doesn't surprise me because —
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布魯諾：我不驚訝，因為...
17:56
(Applause) —
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（鼓掌）
17:58
because of the story you told.
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你先前所說的已經解釋一切。
18:01
Seen from the outside, I live outside of Germany,
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從外國，德國之外的視角來看，
18:04
and I expected the Germans to react
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我以為德國人的反應
18:05
much more strongly, immediately.
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會更加強烈，更加及時。
18:09
And instead, the reaction really came only
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但相反地，只有在梅克爾總理
18:11
when Chancellor Merkel was revealed
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被監聽事件曝光之後，
18:13
as being wiretapped. Why so?
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民眾才真正開始反應。為什麼？
18:17
HK: I take it as a good sign,
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胡貝圖斯：我認為這是一件好事，
18:19
because people feel secure in this democracy.
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因為人們在民主法治下感到很安全。
18:23
They aren't afraid that they will be arrested,
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他們不會擔心被逮捕，
18:25
and if you leave this hall after the conference,
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就像在這場談話結束後離開會場，
18:28
nobody has to be afraid that the secret police
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沒有人需要擔心秘密警察
18:31
is standing out and is arresting you.
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站在門外準備逮捕你。
18:33
So that's a good sign, I think.
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所以，我覺得這是好事。
18:35
People are not really scared, as they could be.
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人們並不覺得活在恐懼之中。
18:38
But of course, I think, the institutions
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當然，我仍然認為法令有責任
18:42
are responsible to stop illegal actions
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去制止非法行為，
18:45
in Germany or wherever they happen.
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不論是在德國或其它地方。
18:48
BG: A personal question,
and this is the last one.
and this is the last one.
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布魯諾：最後我還有一個私人問題。
18:51
There has been a debate in Germany about
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有件事情仍然十分具有爭議性，
18:53
granting asylum to Edward Snowden.
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那就是究竟是否要給予
愛德華·史諾登政治庇護？
愛德華·史諾登政治庇護？
18:55
Would you be in favor or against?
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你的看法怎麼樣？
18:58
HK: Oh, that's a difficult question,
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胡貝圖斯：嗯，這個問題很難回答。
18:59
but if you ask me,
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但如果你問我，
19:01
and if I answer honestly,
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我會誠實地說
19:03
I would give him the asylum,
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我選擇給他政治庇護，
19:04
because I think it was really brave what he did,
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因為我認為他所做的事情非常勇敢，
19:06
and he destroyed his whole life
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他已經毀了自己的一生，
19:09
and his family and everything.
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還有他的家庭和所有一切。
19:11
So I think, for these people,
we should do something,
we should do something,
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我認為對於這樣的人，
我們應該做些什麼。
我們應該做些什麼。
19:14
and especially if you see the German history,
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尤其，在德國的歷史中，
19:18
where so many people had to escape
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你能看到很多人必須逃亡，
19:21
and they asked for asylum in other countries
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尋找其它國家的政治庇護，
19:23
and they didn't get it,
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卻無法如願以償，
19:24
so it would be a good sign to give him asylum.
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所以我認為該給他政治庇護。
19:27
(Applause)
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（鼓掌）
19:29
BG: Hubertus, thank you very much.
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布魯諾：胡貝圖斯，非常謝謝你。
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Hubertus Knabe - HistorianHubertus Knabe studies the history of torture, oppression and surveillance in former East Germany.
Why you should listen
Hubertus Knabe is a historian and the scientific director of Berlin-Hohenschönhausen Memorial, where he studies the inner workings of the East German Ministry of State Security (MfS) -- or Stasi -- between 1945 and 1989. The memorial, once the main remand prison used by the Stasi, is devoted to raising awareness of the brutal oppression that once stemmed from the agency. Before the fall of the Berlin Wall Knabe was under surveillance himself, for smuggling banned books from the West into East Germany. He is the author of over a dozen books on German history, including 17. Juni 1953 - Ein deutscher Aufstand.
More profile about the speakerHubertus Knabe | Speaker | TED.com