TEDxUSC
Scott Fraser: Why eyewitnesses get it wrong
Skot Frejzer (Scott Fraser): Zašto očevici greše
Filmed:
Readability: 4.3
1,283,289 views
Skot Frejzer proučava kako ljudi pamte zločine i kako o njima svedoče. U ovom snažnom govoru, koji je fokusiran na smrtonosnu pucnjavu u sumrak, on sugeriše da čak i svedok koji je veoma blizu zločina može da stvori "zapažanja" koja zapravo nije video. Zašto? Zato što mozak mrzi vakuum.
Scott Fraser - Forensic psychologist, expert witness
Scott Fraser is a forensic psychologist who thinks deeply about the fallibility of human memory and encourages a more scientific approach to trial evidence. Full bio
Scott Fraser is a forensic psychologist who thinks deeply about the fallibility of human memory and encourages a more scientific approach to trial evidence. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:17
The murder happened a little over 21 years ago,
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Ubistvo se dogodilo
pre nešto više od 21 godine,
pre nešto više od 21 godine,
00:22
January the 18th, 1991,
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18. januara 1991.
00:26
in a small
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u malom naselju
00:29
bedroom community
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u predgrađu Linvud,
00:31
of Lynwood, California, just a few miles
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u Kaliforniji,
samo nekoliko kilometara
samo nekoliko kilometara
00:34
southeast of Los Angeles.
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jugoistočno od Los Anđelesa.
00:36
A father came out of his house
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Otac je izašao iz kuće
00:39
to tell his teenage son and his five friends
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da kaže svom sinu i njegovoj
petorici prijatelja
petorici prijatelja
00:42
that it was time for them to stop horsing around
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da je vreme da prestanu da se glupiraju
00:45
on the front lawn and on the sidewalk,
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ispred kuće i na trotoaru,
00:48
to get home, finish their schoolwork,
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da uđu u kuću,
završe domaće zadatke,
završe domaće zadatke,
00:51
and prepare themselves for bed.
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i pripreme se za spavanje.
00:54
And as the father was administering these instructions,
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Dok je otac davao ove instrukcije,
00:57
a car drove by, slowly,
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auto je prolazio, polako,
01:01
and just after it passed the father and the teenagers,
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i samo koliko je prošao
pored oca i tinejdžera,
pored oca i tinejdžera,
01:04
a hand went out from the front passenger window,
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ruka je izašla kroz prozor suvozača,
01:08
and -- "Bam, Bam!" -- killing the father.
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i - "bam, bam" - ubila oca.
01:13
And the car sped off.
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I auto je ubrzao.
01:16
The police,
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Policija, inspektori
01:18
investigating officers, were amazingly efficient.
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bili su začuđujuće efikasni.
01:22
They considered all the usual culprits,
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Razmotrili su sve uobičajene krivce,
01:24
and in less than 24 hours, they had selected their suspect:
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i za manje od 24 sata,
izabrali su osumnjičenog:
izabrali su osumnjičenog:
01:29
Francisco Carrillo, a 17-year-old kid
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Francisko Kariljo,
sedamnaestogodišnjak
sedamnaestogodišnjak
01:32
who lived about two or three blocks away
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koji je živeo oko dva bloka dalje
01:34
from where the shooting occurred.
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od mesta pucnjave.
01:37
They found photos of him. They prepared a photo array,
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Pronašli su njegove fotografije.
Pripremili su niz slika,
Pripremili su niz slika,
01:42
and the day after the shooting,
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i dan nakon pucnjave,
01:45
they showed it to one of the teenagers, and he said,
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pokazali ih jednom od tinejdžera,
i on je rekao:
i on je rekao:
01:48
"That's the picture.
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"To je slika.
01:50
That's the shooter I saw that killed the father."
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To je strelac koga sam video
da ubija oca."
da ubija oca."
01:56
That was all a preliminary hearing judge had
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To je bilo preliminarno saslušanje
koje je
koje je
01:58
to listen to, to bind Mr. Carrillo over to stand trial
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sudija saslušao,
da uputi gospodina Karilja na suđenje
da uputi gospodina Karilja na suđenje
02:04
for a first-degree murder.
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za prvostepeno ubistvo.
02:06
In the investigation that followed before the actual trial,
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U istrazi koja je usledila pre suđenja,
02:09
each of the other five teenagers was shown
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svakome od ostale petorice
tinejdžera pokazane su fotografije,
tinejdžera pokazane su fotografije,
02:13
photographs, the same photo array.
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isti niz slika.
02:17
The picture that we best can determine was probably
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Slika za koju možemo da utvrdimo
da je verovatno bila
da je verovatno bila
02:20
the one that they were shown in the photo array
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ona koju su pokazali u nizu slika,
02:22
is in your bottom left hand corner of these mug shots.
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je ova slika u donjem levom uglu.
02:26
The reason we're not sure absolutely is because
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Razlog zbog koga nismo
apsolutno sigurni je
apsolutno sigurni je
02:29
of the nature of evidence preservation
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način čuvanja dokaza
02:34
in our judicial system,
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u našem sudskom sistemu,
02:36
but that's another whole TEDx talk for later. (Laughter)
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ali to je ceo jedan TEDx
govor za kasnije. (Smeh)
govor za kasnije. (Smeh)
02:41
So at the actual trial,
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Dakle, na konkretnom suđenju,
02:44
all six of the teenagers testified,
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svih šest tinejdžera su svedočili,
02:47
and indicated the identifications they had made
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i pokazali identifikaciju
02:50
in the photo array.
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u nizu slika.
02:54
He was convicted. He was sentenced to life imprisonment,
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On je bio optužen.
Dobio je doživotnu kaznu,
Dobio je doživotnu kaznu,
02:59
and transported to Folsom Prison.
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i transportovan je u zatvor Folsom.
03:04
So what's wrong?
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Dakle, šta nije u redu?
03:06
Straightforward, fair trial, full investigation.
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Otvoreno, fer suđenje, puna istraga.
03:11
Oh yes, no gun was ever found.
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E da, pištolj nikada nije pronađen.
03:14
No vehicle was ever identified as being the one
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Nijedno vozilo nije identifikovano
kao vozilo
kao vozilo
03:19
in which the shooter had extended his arm,
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iz koga je strelac ispružio ruku,
03:22
and no person was ever charged with being the driver
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i niko nikada nije optužen kao vozač
03:25
of the shooter's vehicle.
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vozila iz koga je pucano.
03:28
And Mr. Carrillo's alibi?
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A alibi gospodina Karilja?
03:32
Which of those parents here in the room might not lie
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Ko od ovde prisutnih roditelja
bi mogao da ne laže
bi mogao da ne laže
03:37
concerning the whereabouts of your son or daughter
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kada se radi o tome
gde je njegovo dete bilo
gde je njegovo dete bilo
03:40
in an investigation of a killing?
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kada se radi o istrazi ubistva?
03:46
Sent to prison,
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Poslat je u zatvor,
03:49
adamantly insisting on his innocence,
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odlučno insistirajući
na svojoj nevinosti,
na svojoj nevinosti,
03:52
which he has consistently for 21 years.
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što i radi za ovih 21 godinu.
03:57
So what's the problem?
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Pa, u čemu je problem?
04:01
The problems, actually, for this kind of case
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Problemi, zapravo,
u ovakvim slučajevima
u ovakvim slučajevima
04:03
come manyfold from decades of scientific research
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dolaze uglavnom od decenija
naučnog proučavanja
naučnog proučavanja
04:07
involving human memory.
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ljudskog pamćenja.
04:11
First of all, we have all the statistical analyses
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Pre svega, mi imamo sve
statističke analize
statističke analize
04:14
from the Innocence Project work,
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iz "Projekta nevinosti"
04:16
where we know that we have, what,
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gde znamo da imamo
04:19
250, 280 documented cases now where people have
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250, 280 dokumentovanih slučajeva
gde su ljudi
gde su ljudi
04:23
been wrongfully convicted and subsequently exonerated,
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bili pogrešno optuženi
a zatim pomilovani,
a zatim pomilovani,
04:27
some from death row, on the basis of later DNA analysis,
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neki od smrtne kazne,
na osnovu kasnijih DNK analiza,
na osnovu kasnijih DNK analiza,
04:33
and you know that over three quarters of all of those cases
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i preko tri četvrtine ovih slučajeva
04:37
of exoneration involved only eyewitness identification
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pomilovanja uključivali su
samo identifikaciju očevidaca
samo identifikaciju očevidaca
04:43
testimony during the trial that convicted them.
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za vreme suđenja na kome su osuđeni.
04:47
We know that eyewitness identifications are fallible.
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Znamo da su identifikacije
očevidaca podložne greškama.
očevidaca podložne greškama.
04:52
The other comes from an interesting aspect
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Druga stvar dolazi od aspekta
ljudskog pamćenja
ljudskog pamćenja
04:54
of human memory that's related to various brain functions
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koje je povezano
sa različitim funkcijama mozga
sa različitim funkcijama mozga
04:57
but I can sum up for the sake of brevity here
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ali ja mogu da sumiram sve to,
zarad konciznosti
zarad konciznosti
05:00
in a simple line:
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u jednoj rečenici:
05:02
The brain abhors a vacuum.
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mozak mrzi vakuum.
05:07
Under the best of observation conditions,
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Pod najboljim uslovima posmatranja,
05:11
the absolute best,
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apsolutno najboljim,
05:13
we only detect, encode and store in our brains
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detektujemo, kodiramo i čuvamo
05:17
bits and pieces of the entire experience in front of us,
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samo delove i fragmente čitavog
iskustva oko nas
iskustva oko nas
05:20
and they're stored in different parts of the brain.
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i oni se skladište
u različitim delovima mozga.
u različitim delovima mozga.
05:23
So now, when it's important for us to be able to recall
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Sada, kada je važno da se setimo
05:27
what it was that we experienced,
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šta je bilo to što smo iskusili,
05:30
we have an incomplete, we have a partial store,
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mi imamo nekompletnu,
delimičnu sliku,
delimičnu sliku,
05:35
and what happens?
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i, šta se dešava?
05:37
Below awareness, with no requirement for any kind of
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Nesvesno, bez traženja da obradi sliku,
05:40
motivated processing, the brain fills in information
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mozak popunjava informacijama
05:45
that was not there,
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koje se nisu desile,
05:48
not originally stored,
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koje nisu zaista sačuvane,
05:50
from inference, from speculation,
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iz zaključaka, iz spekulacije,
05:53
from sources of information that came to you,
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iz izvora informacija koji nam dolaze,
05:56
as the observer, after the observation.
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kao posmatraču, nakon posmatranja.
05:59
But it happens without awareness such that
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Ali to dolazi nesvesno
06:01
you don't, aren't even cognizant of it occurring.
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tako da čovek ni ne zna
da se to dešava.
da se to dešava.
06:05
It's called reconstructed memories.
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To se zove rekonstruktivna memorija.
06:07
It happens to us in all the aspects of our life, all the time.
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Dešava nam se u svim aspektima života,
svakodnevno.
svakodnevno.
06:11
It was those two considerations, among others --
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Bile su te dve pretpostavke,
između ostalih -
između ostalih -
06:14
reconstructed memory, the fact about the eyewitness fallibility --
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rekonstruktivna memorija,
činjenica o mogućnosti greške očevidaca -
činjenica o mogućnosti greške očevidaca -
06:19
that was part of the instigation
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koje su bile deo podstreka
06:22
for a group of appeal attorneys
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grupi žalbenih advokata,
06:24
led by an amazing lawyer named Ellen Eggers
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predvođenih izvanrednim advokatom
Elen Egers,
Elen Egers,
06:28
to pool their experience and their talents together
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da udruže svoje iskustvo i talente
06:32
and petition a superior court
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i da zatraže od vrhovnog suda
06:34
for a retrial for Francisco Carrillo.
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ponovno suđenje za Franciska Karilja.
06:39
They retained me, as a forensic neurophysiologist,
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Angažovali su mene,
kao forenzičkog neurofiziologa,
kao forenzičkog neurofiziologa,
06:43
because I had expertise
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jer sam bio stručnjak iz oblasti
06:45
in eyewitness memory identification,
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identifikovanja iz sećanja očevidaca,
06:48
which obviously makes sense for this case, right?
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što je očigledno imalo smisla
u ovom slučaju.
u ovom slučaju.
06:51
But also because I have expertise and testify about
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Ali takođe i jer sam
bio stručnjak i svedok
bio stručnjak i svedok
06:54
the nature of human night vision.
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za prirodu ljudskog vida noću.
06:58
Well, what's that got to do with this?
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Pa, kakve to veze ima s ovim slučajem?
07:01
Well, when you read through the case materials
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Pa, kada čitate kroz dokazni materijal
07:05
in this Carrillo case,
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u slučaju Kariljo,
07:07
one of the things that suddenly strikes you is that
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jedna od stvari koja vas pogodi
je ta da
je ta da
07:10
the investigating officers said the lighting was good
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su inspektori rekli da je
osvetljenje bilo dobro
osvetljenje bilo dobro
07:14
at the crime scene, at the shooting.
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na mestu zločina, na mestu pucnjave.
07:17
All the teenagers testified during the trial
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Svi tinejdžeri su svedočili
za vreme suđenja
za vreme suđenja
07:21
that they could see very well.
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da su mogli dobro da vide.
07:24
But this occurred in mid-January,
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Ali, ovo se desilo sredinom januara,
07:27
in the Northern Hemisphere, at 7 p.m. at night.
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na severnoj hemisferi, u 7 sati uveče.
07:33
So when I did the calculations
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Kada sam uradio proračune
07:36
for the lunar data and the solar data
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lunarnih i solarnih podataka
07:38
at that location on Earth at the time of the incident
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na toj lokaciji na Zemlji u vreme
07:42
of the shooting, all right,
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kada se incident dogodio,
07:44
it was well past the end of civil twilight
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bio je prošao sumrak,
07:46
and there was no moon up that night.
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i nije bilo mesečine te noći.
07:48
So all the light in this area from the sun and the moon
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Sva svetla te noći koja su dolazila
od sunca i meseca
od sunca i meseca
07:51
is what you see on the screen right here.
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su ova koja vidite na ekranu.
07:53
The only lighting in that area had to come
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Jedino svetlo u toj
oblasti te večeri dolazilo je
oblasti te večeri dolazilo je
07:56
from artificial sources,
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iz veštačkih izvora,
08:00
and that's where I go out and I do the actual reconstruction
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i tu ja nastupam -
radim rekonstrukciju scene
radim rekonstrukciju scene
08:02
of the scene with photometers, with various measures
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sa fotometrima,
različitim merama
različitim merama
08:05
of illumination and various other measures of
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iluminacije i raznim drugim merama
08:07
color perception, along with special cameras
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percepcije boja,
sa specijalnim kamerama
sa specijalnim kamerama
08:12
and high-speed film, right?
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i brzim filmovima.
08:14
Take all the measurements and record them, right?
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Radim sva merenja i snimam ih.
08:17
And then take photographs, and this is what the scene
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Onda, dobijam fotografije,
i ovako izgleda
i ovako izgleda
08:19
looked like at the time of the shooting
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scena u vreme pucnjave
08:20
from the position of the teenagers
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iz pozicije tinejdžera
08:23
looking at the car going by and shooting.
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koji gledaju auto koji prolazi
i pucnjavu.
i pucnjavu.
08:26
This is looking directly across the street
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Ovo je gledano direktno
na drugu stranu ulice
na drugu stranu ulice
08:29
from where they were standing.
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sa mesta gde su oni stajali.
08:31
Remember, the investigating officers' report said
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Setite se, inspektori su rekli
08:33
the lighting was good.
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da je osvetljenje bilo dobro.
08:36
The teenagers said they could see very well.
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Tinejdžeri su rekli
da su mogli dobro da vide.
da su mogli dobro da vide.
08:38
This is looking down to the east,
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Ovo je pogled ka istoku,
08:41
where the shooting vehicle sped off,
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gde je auto otišao nakon pucnjave,
08:45
and this is the lighting directly behind the father
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a ovo je osvetljenje direktno iza oca
08:50
and the teenagers.
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i iza tinejdžera.
08:52
As you can see, it is at best poor.
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Vidite, u najboljem slučaju je loše.
08:56
No one's going to call this well-lit, good lighting,
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Niko ovo ne može da nazove
dobro osvetljeno
dobro osvetljeno
09:00
and in fact, as nice as these pictures are,
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i u stvari, koliko god da su
ove slike dobre,
ove slike dobre,
09:03
and the reason we take them is I knew I was going to have to testify in court,
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a slikao sam ih jer sam znao
da ću svedočiti na sudu,
da ću svedočiti na sudu,
09:07
and a picture is worth more than a thousand words
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i slika vredi više od hiljadu reči
09:10
when you're trying to communicate numbers,
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kada pokušavate da saopštite brojeve,
09:12
abstract concepts like lux, the international measurement
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apstraktne koncepte kao luks,
internacionalne mere
internacionalne mere
09:16
of illumination, the Ishihara color perception test values.
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osvetljenja, vrednosti testa
percepcije boja Išihara.
percepcije boja Išihara.
09:21
When you present those to people who are not well-versed
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Kada to predstavite ljudima
koji nisu dobro upućeni
koji nisu dobro upućeni
09:24
in those aspects of science and that, they become
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u taj aspekt nauke, oni postaju
09:27
salamanders in the noonday sun. It's like
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kao gušteri na popodnevnom suncu.
To je kao
To je kao
09:29
talking about the tangent of the visual angle, all right?
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da govorimo o tangensu ugla, ok?
09:32
Their eyes just glaze over, all right?
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Njihove oči samo zure.
09:35
A good forensic expert also has to be a good educator,
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Dobar forenzički ekspert mora biti
i dobar edukator,
i dobar edukator,
09:39
a good communicator, and that's part of the reason
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dobar komunikator i to je deo razloga
09:42
why we take the pictures, to show not only
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zašto smo napravili ove slike,
da pokažemo
da pokažemo
09:44
where the light sources are, and what we call the spill,
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ne samo gde su izvori svetlosti,
i takozvano razlivanje,
i takozvano razlivanje,
09:47
the distribution, but also so that it's easier
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distribucija,
već i zato što je lakše
već i zato što je lakše
09:49
for the trier of fact to understand the circumstances.
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onome ko prosuđuje da razume okolnosti.
09:53
So these are some of the pictures that, in fact,
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Dakle, ovo su neke od slika koje sam,
u stvari,
u stvari,
09:56
I used when I testified,
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koristio dok sam svedočio,
09:59
but more importantly were, to me as a scientist,
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ali važnija za mene
kao naučnika su bila ta
kao naučnika su bila ta
10:01
are those readings, the photometer readings,
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1983
očitavanja fotometra
10:03
which I can then convert into actual predictions
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koja sam ja onda
konvertovao u prognoze
konvertovao u prognoze
10:07
of the visual capability of the human eye
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mogućnosti vida ljudskog oka
10:11
under those circumstances,
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pod tim okolnostima,
10:13
and from my readings that I recorded at the scene
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i iz tih očitavanja
koja sam snimio na licu mesta
koja sam snimio na licu mesta
10:17
under the same solar and lunar conditions
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pod istim sunčevim i mesečevim
10:19
at the same time, so on and so forth, right,
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svetlosnim uslovima,
u isto vreme, i tako dalje,
u isto vreme, i tako dalje,
10:22
I could predict
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mogao sam da predvidim
10:23
that there would be no reliable color perception,
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da neće biti pouzdane percepcije boja,
10:26
which is crucial for face recognition,
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što je najvažnije
za prepoznavanje lica,
za prepoznavanje lica,
10:28
and that there would be only scotopic vision,
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2312
i da će biti samo
zatamnjenog prizora,
zatamnjenog prizora,
10:30
which means there would be very little resolution,
188
614731
1960
što znači da će biti
veoma male rezolucije,
veoma male rezolucije,
10:32
what we call boundary or edge detection,
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2248
što zovemo ocrtavanje ivica,
10:34
and that furthermore, because the eyes would have been
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2315
i da će štaviše, jer su oči
10:37
totally dilated under this light, the depth of field,
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potpuno proširene pod ovakvom svetlošću,
dubina polja
dubina polja
10:40
the distance at which you can focus and see details,
192
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daljina na koju se fokusirate da
biste videli detalje,
biste videli detalje,
10:44
would have been less than 18 inches away.
193
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5394
biti manja od 45 cm.
10:49
I testified to that to the court,
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2504
Tako sam svedočio na sudu,
10:52
and while the judge was very attentive,
195
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2433
i dok je sudija bio veoma pažljiv,
10:54
it had been a very, very long hearing
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2607
to je bilo veoma dugo saslušanje
10:57
for this petition for a retrial, and as a result,
197
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za zahtev za ponovno suđenje,
i kao rezultat,
i kao rezultat,
11:01
I noticed out of the corner of my eye
198
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ja sam krajičkom oka primetio
11:03
that I thought that maybe the judge was going to need
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4145
da će sudiji možda biti potrebno
11:07
a little more of a nudge
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2063
malo više podstreka
11:09
than just more numbers.
201
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2508
od samih brojki.
11:12
And here I became a bit audacious,
202
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I tu sam se malo drznuo,
11:14
and I turned
203
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1520
okrenuo sam se,
11:16
and I asked the judge,
204
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2392
i upitao sudiju:
11:18
I said, "Your Honor, I think you should go out
205
662579
2408
"Vaša Visosti,
mislim da bi trebalo da izađete
mislim da bi trebalo da izađete
11:20
and look at the scene yourself."
206
664987
2704
na lice mesta i pogledate sami."
11:23
Now I may have used a tone which was more like a dare
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3141
Možda sam govorio tonom
koji je zvučao više kao začikavanje
koji je zvučao više kao začikavanje
11:26
than a request — (Laughter) —
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2404
nego kao zahtev
- (Smeh) -
- (Smeh) -
11:29
but nonetheless, it's to this man's credit and his courage
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673236
4447
ali bilo kako bilo,
zahvaljujući hrabrosti ovog čoveka,
zahvaljujući hrabrosti ovog čoveka,
11:33
that he said, "Yes, I will."
210
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3616
on je rekao: "Da, hoću."
11:37
A shocker in American jurisprudence.
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Šok u američkom pravosuđu.
11:41
So in fact, we found the same identical conditions,
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2472
Stvorili smo identične uslove,
11:43
we reconstructed the entire thing again,
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2041
rekonstruisali smo čitavu stvar ponovo,
11:45
he came out with an entire brigade of sheriff's officers
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4010
on je došao sa celom brigadom oficira
11:49
to protect him in this community, all right? (Laughter)
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5157
da ga štite u ovom kraju, ok? (Smeh)
11:54
We had him stand actually slightly in the street,
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5054
Stavili smo ga da stane
malo više ka ulici,
malo više ka ulici,
11:59
so closer to the suspect vehicle, the shooter vehicle,
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3180
znači bliže vozilu iz koga je pucano
12:03
than the actual teenagers were,
218
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2742
nego što su tinejdžeri stajali,
12:05
so he stood a few feet from the curb
219
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2224
na oko metar udaljenosti od ivičnjaka
12:08
toward the middle of the street.
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2612
ka sredini ulice.
12:10
We had a car that came by,
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2917
Auto je prošao,
12:13
same identical car as described by the teenagers, right?
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isti auto kao što su opisali tinejdžeri;
12:18
It had a driver and a passenger,
223
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1937
unutra su bili vozač i suvozač,
12:20
and after the car had passed the judge by,
224
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3823
i kada je auto prošao sudiju,
12:24
the passenger extended his hand,
225
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3514
suvozač je ispružio ruku,
12:27
pointed it back to the judge as the car continued on,
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731925
4574
i uperio ka sudiji
dok je auto nastavio da ide,
dok je auto nastavio da ide,
12:32
just as the teenagers had described it, right?
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2219
baš kako su tinejdžeri opisali, ok?
12:34
Now, he didn't use a real gun in his hand,
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2853
Nije imao pravi pištolj u ruci,
12:37
so he had a black object in his hand that was similar
229
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2418
već crni predmet sličan
12:39
to the gun that was described.
230
743989
1979
pištolju koji je opisan.
12:41
He pointed by, and this is what the judge saw.
231
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2846
Uperio je, i evo šta je sudija video.
12:44
This is the car 30 feet away from the judge.
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Ovo je auto 9 metara udaljen od sudije.
12:51
There's an arm sticking out of the passenger side
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2912
Ruka viri sa suvozačevog mesta
12:54
and pointed back at you.
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2373
i uperena je ka nama.
12:57
That's 30 feet away.
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761198
1965
To je udaljenost od 9 metara.
12:59
Some of the teenagers said that in fact the car
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2192
Neki tinedžeri tvrdili su
da je auto u stvari
da je auto u stvari
13:01
was 15 feet away when it shot.
237
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2576
bio 4,5 metra udaljen kada je pucao.
13:03
Okay. There's 15 feet.
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3664
U redu. Ovo je 4,5 metra.
13:07
At this point, I became a little concerned.
239
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4170
U tom trenutku,
malo sam se zabrinuo.
malo sam se zabrinuo.
13:11
This judge is someone you'd never want to play poker with.
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4734
Ovaj sudija je neko s kim
nikada ne biste poželeli da igrate poker.
nikada ne biste poželeli da igrate poker.
13:16
He was totally stoic. I couldn't see a twitch of his eyebrow.
241
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4288
Bio je totalni stoik. Nisam mogao
da primetim ni trzaj njegove obrve.
da primetim ni trzaj njegove obrve.
13:20
I couldn't see the slightest bend of his head.
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3269
Niti najmanji pokret glavom.
13:23
I had no sense of how he was reacting to this,
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3501
Nisam mogao da
osetim kako je reagovao na ovo,
osetim kako je reagovao na ovo,
13:27
and after he looked at this reenactment,
244
791557
3040
i nakon što je pogledao
ovu rekonstrukciju,
ovu rekonstrukciju,
13:30
he turned to me and he says,
245
794597
1080
okrenuo se ka meni i pitao:
13:31
"Is there anything else you want me to look at?"
246
795677
3258
"Da li postoji još nešto
što želite da pogledam?"
što želite da pogledam?"
13:34
I said, "Your honor," and I don't know whether I was
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Rekao sam:
"Vaša Visosti," i ne znam da li sam bio
"Vaša Visosti," i ne znam da li sam bio
13:39
emboldened by the scientific measurements that I had
248
803430
2957
ohrabren naučnim merenjma
koja sam imao
koja sam imao
13:42
in my pocket and my knowledge that they are accurate,
249
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3696
u svom džepu i svojim znanjem
da su tačna
da su tačna
13:45
or whether it was just sheer stupidity,
250
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2255
ili je to bila moja glupost,
13:48
which is what the defense lawyers thought — (Laughter) —
251
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2825
što su mislili advokati odbrane
- (Smeh) -
- (Smeh) -
13:51
when they heard me say,
252
815163
1752
kada su me čuli da izgovaram:
13:52
"Yes, Your Honor, I want you stand right there
253
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2704
"Da, Vaša Visosti,
želim da stanete ovde
želim da stanete ovde
13:55
and I want the car to go around the block again
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4336
i želim da auto prođe još jednom
13:59
and I want it to come and I want it to stop
255
823955
3354
i želim da zastane
14:03
right in front of you, three to four feet away,
256
827309
4190
tačno ispred Vas,
na oko metar od Vas,
na oko metar od Vas,
14:07
and I want the passenger to extend his hand
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831499
3456
i želim da suvozač ispruži ruku
14:10
with a black object and point it right at you,
258
834955
2016
i uperi u Vas sa crnim predmetom
14:12
and you can look at it as long as you want."
259
836971
5720
i da Vi gledate u njega
koliko hoćete."
koliko hoćete."
14:18
And that's what he saw. (Laughter)
260
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4427
I ovo je on video.
(Smeh)
(Smeh)
14:23
You'll notice, which was also in my test report,
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3840
Primetićete,
što sam i uključio u svoj izveštaj,
što sam i uključio u svoj izveštaj,
14:26
all the dominant lighting is coming from the north side,
262
850958
2645
da dominantno osvetljenje
dolazi sa severne strane,
dolazi sa severne strane,
14:29
which means that the shooter's face would
263
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1743
što znači da bi lice strelca
14:31
have been photo-occluded. It would have been backlit.
264
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2616
bilo zatamnjeno.
14:33
Furthermore, the roof of the car
265
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1902
Štaviše, krov automobila
14:35
is causing what we call a shadow cloud inside the car
266
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4274
baca senku na unutrašnjost automobila
14:40
which is making it darker.
267
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3330
i čini je još tamnijom.
14:43
And this is three to four feet away.
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4112
I ovo je sa daljine od oko metar.
14:47
Why did I take the risk?
269
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3128
Zašto sam rizikovao?
14:50
I knew that the depth of field was 18 inches or less.
270
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4229
Znao sam da je
dubina polja oko 45 cm ili manje.
dubina polja oko 45 cm ili manje.
14:54
Three to four feet, it might as well have been
271
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1667
Metar udaljenosti, mogao je biti
14:56
a football field away.
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4472
i čitav fudbalski teren daleko.
15:00
This is what he saw.
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2208
Ovo je on video.
15:03
He went back, there was a few more days of evidence
274
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3800
Vratio se,
bilo je još nekoliko dana za dokaze.
bilo je još nekoliko dana za dokaze.
15:06
that was heard. At the end of it,
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2304
Na kraju,
15:09
he made the judgment that he was going to grant
276
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2628
odlučio je da će dozvoliti
15:11
the petition for a retrial.
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3078
peticiju za ponovno suđenje.
15:14
And furthermore, he released Mr. Carrillo
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2478
Štaviše, oslobodio je gospodina Karilja
15:17
so that he could aid in the preparation of his own defense
279
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2987
da bi mogao da pomogne
u pripremi svoje odbrane
u pripremi svoje odbrane
15:20
if the prosecution decided to retry him.
280
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6019
ukoliko tužilaštvo odluči
da mu ponovo sudi.
da mu ponovo sudi.
15:26
Which they decided not to.
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2310
Što su oni odlučili da ne urade.
15:28
He is now a freed man. (Applause)
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5061
On je sada oslobođen čovek.
(Aplauz)
(Aplauz)
15:33
(Applause)
283
917949
3943
(Aplauz)
15:37
This is him embracing his grandmother-in-law.
284
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5104
Ovo je on kako grli babu
svoje supruge.
svoje supruge.
15:42
He -- His girlfriend was pregnant when he went to trial,
285
926996
4075
Njegova devojka je bila trudna
kada je otišao na suđenje.
kada je otišao na suđenje.
15:46
right? And she had a little baby boy.
286
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4085
Rodila je dečaka.
15:51
He and his son are both attending Cal State, Long Beach
287
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2681
On i njegov sin zajedno pohađaju
kalifornijski univerzitet u Long Biču,
kalifornijski univerzitet u Long Biču,
15:53
right now taking classes. (Applause)
288
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6188
idu na časove.
(Aplauz)
(Aplauz)
15:59
And what does this example --
289
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3963
I šta nam pokazuje ovaj primer -
16:03
what's important to keep in mind for ourselves?
290
947988
4344
šta je važno da zapamtimo?
16:08
First of all, there's a long history of antipathy
291
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3696
Pre svega, postoji
duga istorija antipatije
duga istorija antipatije
16:11
between science and the law
292
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2080
između nauke i zakona
16:14
in American jurisprudence.
293
958108
2400
u američkom pravosuđu.
16:16
I could regale you with horror stories of ignorance
294
960508
3448
Mogao bih vas počastiti
horor pričama o neznanju
horor pričama o neznanju
16:19
over decades of experience as a forensic expert
295
963956
4336
koje sam iskusio kao
forenzički ekspert tokom decenija
forenzički ekspert tokom decenija
16:24
of just trying to get science into the courtroom.
296
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4506
pokušavajući da uvedem
nauku u sudnice.
nauku u sudnice.
16:28
The opposing council always fight it and oppose it.
297
972798
4934
Protivnički advokati se suprotstave,
i pobiju dokaze.
i pobiju dokaze.
16:33
One suggestion is that all of us become much more
298
977732
3387
Jedan predlog je da
svi postanemo mnogo više
svi postanemo mnogo više
16:37
attuned to the necessity, through policy,
299
981119
2869
okrenuti ka neophodnosti, kroz pravila,
16:39
through procedures,
300
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2056
kroz procedure,
16:41
to get more science in the courtroom,
301
986044
3184
da bismo dobili više nauke u sudnici,
16:45
and I think one large step toward that
302
989228
2311
i mislim da je veliki korak ka tome
16:47
is more requirements,
303
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1842
više zahteva -
16:49
with all due respect to the law schools,
304
993381
2559
uz svo poštovanje pravnim fakultetima -
16:51
of science, technology, engineering, mathematics
305
995940
5111
za naukom, tehnologijom,
tehnikom, matematikom
tehnikom, matematikom
16:56
for anyone going into the law,
306
1001051
1977
za sve koji uče pravo,
16:58
because they become the judges.
307
1003028
3624
jer oni postaju sudije.
17:02
Think about how we select our judges in this country.
308
1006652
3048
Razmislite kako
biramo sudije u našoj zemlji.
biramo sudije u našoj zemlji.
17:05
It's very different than most other cultures. All right?
309
1009700
3360
Drugačije je nego u drugim zemljama,
zar ne?
zar ne?
17:08
The other one that I want to suggest,
310
1013060
2410
Druga stvar koju bih predložio,
17:11
the caution that all of us have to have,
311
1015470
2430
je oprez koji svi moramo da imamo;
17:13
I constantly have to remind myself,
312
1017900
1840
ja stalno moram da se podsećam
17:15
about just how accurate are the memories
313
1019740
3103
koliko su tačna sećanja
17:18
that we know are true, that we believe in?
314
1022843
5369
za koja mislimo da su istinita,
u koja verujemo?
u koja verujemo?
17:24
There is decades of research,
315
1028212
3384
Decenije istraživanja,
17:27
examples and examples of cases like this,
316
1031596
4168
primeri i primeri slučajeva
kao što je ovaj,
kao što je ovaj,
17:31
where individuals
317
1035764
1968
gde pojedinci zaista veruju
17:33
really, really believe. None of those teenagers
318
1037732
3512
u svoja sećanja.
Nijedan od ovih tinejdžera
Nijedan od ovih tinejdžera
17:37
who identified him
319
1041244
1832
koji su identifikovali počinioca
17:38
thought that they were picking the wrong person.
320
1043076
3276
nije mislio da greši.
17:42
None of them thought they couldn't see the person's face.
321
1046352
3354
Niko od njih nije pomislio
da možda nije mogao da vidi lice.
da možda nije mogao da vidi lice.
17:45
We all have to be very careful.
322
1049706
2132
Svi moramo biti pažljivi.
17:47
All our memories are reconstructed memories.
323
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3640
Sva naša sećanja su rekonstruisana.
17:51
They are the product of what we originally experienced
324
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Naša sećanja su proizvod
onoga što smo doživeli
onoga što smo doživeli
17:53
and everything that's happened afterwards.
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i svega što se desilo nakon toga.
17:56
They're dynamic.
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Ona su dinamična.
17:58
They're malleable. They're volatile,
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Ona su savitljiva.
Ona su promenljiva,
Ona su promenljiva,
18:01
and as a result, we all need to remember to be cautious,
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iz tog razloga, svi moramo
da zapamtimo da treba da budemo oprezni
da zapamtimo da treba da budemo oprezni
18:05
that the accuracy of our memories
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i da tačnost naših sećanja
18:08
is not measured in how vivid they are
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ne može da se meri po tome
koliko su ona živopisna
koliko su ona živopisna
18:11
nor how certain you are that they're correct.
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niti po tome koliko smo mi
sigurni u to da su tačna.
sigurni u to da su tačna.
18:17
Thank you. (Applause)
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Hvala vam.
(Aplauz)
(Aplauz)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Scott Fraser - Forensic psychologist, expert witnessScott Fraser is a forensic psychologist who thinks deeply about the fallibility of human memory and encourages a more scientific approach to trial evidence.
Why you should listen
When it comes to witnesses in criminal trials, the accuracy of human memory can mean the difference between life and death. Scott Fraser is an expert witness who researches what’s real and what’s selective when it comes to human memory and crime. His areas of expertise include human night vision, neuropsychopharmacology, and the effect of stress and other factors on the human mind. He has testified in criminal and civil cases throughout the U.S. in state and federal courts.
In 2011 Fraser was involved in the retrial of a 1992 murder case in which Francisco Carrillo was found guilty and sentenced to two life sentences in prison. Fraser and the team that hired him staged a dramatic reenactment of the night of the murder in question and showed the testimonies that had put Carrillo in jail were unreliable. After 20 years in jail for a crime he didn't commit, Carrillo was freed.
Scott Fraser | Speaker | TED.com