TEDGlobal 2014
Ricardo Semler: How to run a company with (almost) no rules
里卡多·塞姆勒: 公司，学校和生活中的前瞻性智慧
Filmed:
Readability: 2.9
3,246,933 views
如果你的工作无法掌控你的生活怎么办？巴西CEO里卡多·塞姆勒实践了一种关于公司民主的前卫形式，重新思考一切，从董事会议到工人们如何汇报他们的假期（实际上他们并不需要）。这是一种奖励工人所付出的智慧的设想，促进工作-生活平衡——同时可以引发出一些关于工作，生活的意义何在的深入思考。附加问题：如果学校教育也能够如此运作呢？
Ricardo Semler - Organizational changemaker
Two decades after transforming a struggling equipment supplier into a radically democratic and resilient (and successful) company, Ricardo Semler wants organizations to become wise. Full bio
Two decades after transforming a struggling equipment supplier into a radically democratic and resilient (and successful) company, Ricardo Semler wants organizations to become wise. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
On Mondays and Thursdays,
I learn how to die.
I learn how to die.
0
986
4192
每周一和周四，
我都要学习如何死去。
我都要学习如何死去。
我把它们称作我的终结日。
00:17
I call them my terminal days.
1
5178
1924
00:19
My wife Fernanda doesn't like the term,
2
7102
2834
我妻子费尔南达不喜欢这个词，
00:21
but a lot of people in my family died
of melanoma cancer
of melanoma cancer
3
9936
4802
但是我的家族中很多人
都死于黑色素瘤癌，
都死于黑色素瘤癌，
00:26
and my parents and grandparents had it.
4
14738
2635
我的父母和祖父母也都患有这种病。
00:29
And I kept thinking, one day I could
be sitting in front of a doctor
be sitting in front of a doctor
5
17373
3284
我不由得想，总有一天我会去见医生，
他/她看着我的检验结果说，
00:32
who looks at my exams and says,
6
20657
2122
00:34
"Ricardo, things don't look very good.
7
22779
2315
“里卡多，情况看起来不太好。
你的生命只剩下半年到一年的时间了。“
00:37
You have six months or a year to live."
8
25094
2679
00:39
And you start thinking about
what you would do with this time.
what you would do with this time.
9
27773
3246
如果是你就会开始思考要如何
利用这余下的时间。
利用这余下的时间。
00:43
And you say, "I'm going to spend
more time with the kids.
more time with the kids.
10
31034
2780
你通常会说，
”我得花更多的时间在孩子身上。
”我得花更多的时间在孩子身上。
我要去这些地方，
00:45
I'm going to visit these places,
11
33839
1557
我要翻山越岭，走南闯北，
00:47
I'm going to go up and down
mountains and places
mountains and places
12
35423
2455
我要完成之前一直没做成的事。“
00:49
and I'm going to do all the things
I didn't do when I had the time."
I didn't do when I had the time."
13
37916
3786
00:53
But of course, we all know
14
41806
1833
不过当然，我们都知道
00:55
these are very bittersweet memories
we're going to have.
we're going to have.
15
43639
2984
这些都会成为苦乐参半的回忆。
这很难做到。
00:58
It's very difficult to do.
16
46623
1323
你可能会把大量的时间拿来痛哭一场。
00:59
You spend a good part of the time
crying, probably.
crying, probably.
17
47946
3653
01:03
So I said, I'm going to do something else.
18
51599
2387
于是我决定，要做点别的事。
01:05
Every Monday and Thursday,
I'm going use my terminal days.
I'm going use my terminal days.
19
53986
4839
每个周一和周四，
我会好好利用我的终结日。
我会好好利用我的终结日。
如果我得到了这个（不幸的）消息，
01:10
And I will do, during those days,
20
58825
2369
01:13
whatever it is I was going to do
if I had received that piece of news.
if I had received that piece of news.
21
61194
3527
我就会在那些天里去完成我想做的事。
01:16
(Laughter)
22
64721
1373
（笑声）
01:18
When you think about --
23
66094
2034
当你想到——
01:20
(Applause)
24
68128
4165
（掌声）
01:24
when you think about the opposite of work,
25
72293
2477
当你想到工作的反义词，
01:26
we, many times, think it's leisure.
26
74770
2477
我们在很多时候会想到”休闲“。
01:29
And you say, ah, I need
some leisure time, and so forth.
some leisure time, and so forth.
27
77247
3067
你会说，噢，
我需要一些闲暇时间，等等。
我需要一些闲暇时间，等等。
01:32
But the fact is that,
leisure is a very busy thing.
leisure is a very busy thing.
28
80314
3537
不过实际上，休闲是个非常累人的过程。
01:35
You go play golf and tennis,
and you meet people,
and you meet people,
29
83851
2399
你要去玩高尔夫球和网球，约见朋友，
01:38
and you're going for lunch,
and you're late for the movies.
and you're late for the movies.
30
86250
3110
要去吃午饭，赶着去看电影。
01:41
It's a very crowded thing that we do.
31
89362
2048
我们要做的事多得让人应接不暇。
01:43
The opposite of work is idleness.
32
91410
4120
其实工作的反义词是”无所事事“。
01:47
But very few of us know
what to do with idleness.
what to do with idleness.
33
95530
2415
不过很少有人知道要怎么
才能做到无所事事。
才能做到无所事事。
01:49
When you look at the way
that we distribute our lives in general,
that we distribute our lives in general,
34
97945
4057
你可以大致看一下我们是
如何分配这一生的，
如何分配这一生的，
01:54
you realize that in the periods
in which we have a lot of money,
in which we have a lot of money,
35
102007
4554
你会发现存在一些周期，
当我们有很多钱的时候，
当我们有很多钱的时候，
01:58
we have very little time.
36
106561
1997
我们没有什么时间。
02:00
And then when we finally have time,
we have neither the money nor the health.
we have neither the money nor the health.
37
108558
5027
当我们有时间的时候，
却没什么钱，身体也出了状况。
却没什么钱，身体也出了状况。
02:05
So we started thinking about that
as a company for the last 30 years.
as a company for the last 30 years.
38
113585
4620
于是在过去的三十年中，
我们一直在以运营公司的方式思考这个问题。
我们一直在以运营公司的方式思考这个问题。
02:10
This is a complicated company
with thousands of employees,
with thousands of employees,
39
118205
3171
这是个结构复杂的公司，
拥有几千名雇员，
拥有几千名雇员，
02:13
hundreds of millions
of dollars of business
of dollars of business
40
121376
2360
几亿美元的
02:15
that makes rocket fuel propellent systems,
runs 4,000 ATMs in Brazil,
runs 4,000 ATMs in Brazil,
41
123736
6553
火箭燃料推进系统的生意，
在巴西运营着4000台ATM机，
在巴西运营着4000台ATM机，
02:22
does income tax preparation
for dozens of thousands.
for dozens of thousands.
42
130289
3357
为几万人准备收入税材料。
02:25
So this is not a simple business.
43
133646
3612
所以这不是一个简单的生意。
02:29
We looked at it and we said,
44
137258
2128
我们看着这一切说，
02:31
let's devolve to these people,
let's give these people a company
let's give these people a company
45
139386
4868
我们不如把业务下放给这些员工吧，
让他们自己运营一个公司，
让他们自己运营一个公司，
02:36
where we take away
all the boarding school aspects
all the boarding school aspects
46
144254
2380
我们把董事会所有那些
条条框框的部分去掉，
条条框框的部分去掉，
02:38
of, this is when you arrive,
this is how you dress,
this is how you dress,
47
146634
2389
比如你要什么时间来，
你要如何打扮，
你要如何打扮，
02:41
this is how you go to meetings,
this is what you say,
this is what you say,
48
149023
2562
你要如何参加会议，
你要说些什么，
你要说些什么，
你不能说什么，
02:43
this is what you don't say,
49
151585
1321
再看看接下来会如何。
02:44
and let's see what's left.
50
152906
1506
02:46
So we started this about 30 years ago,
51
154412
1830
我们30年前就开始这样做了，
02:48
and we started dealing
with this very issue.
with this very issue.
52
156242
2525
开始着手处理这个事情。
02:50
And so we said, look, the retirement,
53
158767
2197
于是我们说，看吧，退休，
02:52
the whole issue of how
we distribute our graph of life.
we distribute our graph of life.
54
160964
3142
这就是我们如何分配生命的问题。
02:56
Instead of going mountain climbing
when you're 82,
when you're 82,
55
164106
3157
与其等到82岁的时候再去登山，
02:59
why don't you do it next week?
56
167263
2173
你为什么不下周就动身呢？
03:01
And we'll do it like this,
57
169436
1355
我们一般会这样做，
我们会以你工资10%的价格
把你的周三返卖给你。
把你的周三返卖给你。
03:02
we'll sell you back your Wednesdays
for 10 percent of your salary.
for 10 percent of your salary.
58
170791
4396
03:07
So now, if you were going to be
a violinist, which you probably weren't,
a violinist, which you probably weren't,
59
175187
4253
这样一来，如果你想要成为一个小提琴家，
但这个愿望还没有实现，
但这个愿望还没有实现，
03:11
you go and do this on Wednesday.
60
179440
2154
你就可以在周三去做。
03:13
And what we found --
61
181594
1347
我们发现——
03:14
we thought, these are the older people
62
182941
2537
我们认为，真正对这个项目感兴趣的
03:17
who are going to be really interested
in this program.
in this program.
63
185478
2599
都会是些资历更老的人。
当然，第一批参与这个项目的人的
03:20
And the average age
of the first people who adhered
of the first people who adhered
64
188077
2454
03:22
were 29, of course.
65
190531
1448
平均年龄是29岁。
03:23
And so we started looking,
66
191979
1358
我们开始了观察，
03:25
and we said, we have to do things
in a different way.
in a different way.
67
193337
2500
我们决定，要以一种不同的方式来运作。
03:27
So we started saying things like,
68
195837
1771
于是我们开始这样说，
03:29
why do we want to know
what time you came to work,
what time you came to work,
69
197608
2374
为什么我们想要知道你什么时间去工作，
03:31
what time you left, etc.?
70
199982
1251
什么时间下班之类的信息？
03:33
Can't we exchange this for a contract
71
201233
2354
我们难道不能以此为交换签署一个合同，
03:35
for buying something from you,
some kind of work?
some kind of work?
72
203587
3462
从你那里购买点什么，比如一些工作？
03:39
Why are we building these headquarters?
73
207049
2021
我们为什么要建立这么多总部？
03:41
Is it not an ego issue
that we want to look solid
that we want to look solid
74
209070
2768
这不是一个关于我们想要高瞻远瞩进行
03:43
and big and important?
75
211838
1879
自我提升的问题吗？
但我们是因为这个才让你们
花2个小时从城那头跑过来干活儿的吗？
花2个小时从城那头跑过来干活儿的吗？
03:45
But we're dragging you two hours
across town because of it?
across town because of it?
76
213717
3284
03:49
So we started asking questions one by one.
77
217001
3531
于是我们开始一个接一个的提问。
03:52
We'd say it like this:
78
220532
1393
我们会这样描述它：
03:53
One: How do we find people?
79
221925
2282
一：我们怎样招聘？
03:56
We'd go out and try
and recruit people and we'd say,
and recruit people and we'd say,
80
224207
3183
我们会出去尝试招募人们，跟他们说，
03:59
look, when you come to us,
81
227390
1553
看，当你来找我们，
04:00
we're not going to have
two or three interviews
two or three interviews
82
228943
2222
我们并不是进行几次面试，
然后你就需要一辈子为我们效力。
04:03
and then you're going to be
married to us for life.
married to us for life.
83
231165
2412
这不是我们利用余下生命的方式。
04:05
That's not how we do
the rest of our lives.
the rest of our lives.
84
233577
2150
那么，来参加面试吧。
04:07
So, come have your interviews.
85
235727
2105
04:09
Anyone who's interested
in interviewing, you will show up.
in interviewing, you will show up.
86
237832
3436
任何对面试感兴趣的人，都会出现。
04:13
And then we'll see what happens
out of the intuition that rises from that,
out of the intuition that rises from that,
87
241268
3993
然后我们会看到从由此产生的
直觉之外能获得什么，
直觉之外能获得什么，
04:17
instead of just filling out the little
items of whether you're the right person.
items of whether you're the right person.
88
245261
4042
而不只是通过填写表格来判断
你是不是最佳人选。
你是不是最佳人选。
04:21
And then, come back.
89
249303
2117
然后再让你回来。
04:23
Spend an afternoon, spend a whole day,
talk to anybody you want.
talk to anybody you want.
90
251420
3061
花一个下午，一整天，
跟任何你想找的人谈话。
跟任何你想找的人谈话。
04:26
Make sure we are the bride
you thought we were
you thought we were
91
254481
3061
确定我们是你想找的对象，
04:29
and not all the bullshit
we put into our own ads.
we put into our own ads.
92
257542
3063
别被我们广告里的写的破玩意儿忽悠了。
04:32
(Laughter)
93
260605
2076
（笑声）
04:34
Slowly we went to a process
where we'd say things like,
where we'd say things like,
94
262681
3696
慢慢的我们进入了一个过程，
我们会这样说，
我们会这样说，
04:38
we don't want anyone to be
a leader in the company
a leader in the company
95
266377
2761
我们不想让任何还没有被未来的下属
04:41
if they haven't been
interviewed and approved
interviewed and approved
96
269138
2143
面试和肯定的人成为
04:43
by their future subordinates.
97
271281
2851
公司的领导。
每半年，每个人都要以领导的身份
接受匿名评估。
接受匿名评估。
04:46
Every six months, everyone gets
evaluated, anonymously, as a leader.
evaluated, anonymously, as a leader.
98
274132
4877
04:51
And this determines whether they should
continue in that leadership position,
continue in that leadership position,
99
279588
4032
这决定了他们是否应该
继续在领导层任职，
继续在领导层任职，
多数情况下都是场景面试，
这个你们应该了解。
这个你们应该了解。
04:55
which is many times
situational, as you know.
situational, as you know.
100
283620
2790
04:58
And so if they don't have 70, 80 percent
of a grade, they don't stay,
of a grade, they don't stay,
101
286410
6054
如果他们得不到百分之七八十的肯定，
他们就得走人，
他们就得走人，
05:04
which is probably the reason why
I haven't been CEO for more than 10 years.
I haven't been CEO for more than 10 years.
102
292464
4339
这可能就是我已经从CEO的位子上
下来了10多年的原因。
下来了10多年的原因。
05:08
And over time, we started asking
other questions.
other questions.
103
296803
3896
过了一段时间，
我们开始问其他的问题。
我们开始问其他的问题。
05:12
We said things like,
104
300699
1516
我们会说，
05:14
why can't people set their own salaries?
105
302215
3329
为什么员工不能自己定薪水？
05:17
What do they need to know?
106
305544
1576
他们需要知道什么？
05:19
There's only three things
you need to know:
you need to know:
107
307120
2063
你只需要知道3件事：
05:21
how much people make inside the company,
108
309183
2335
员工在公司内部创造了多少价值，
05:23
how much people make somewhere
else in a similar business
else in a similar business
109
311518
2869
员工在别的地方的类似公司
创造了多少价值，
创造了多少价值，
05:26
and how much we make in general
to see whether we can afford it.
to see whether we can afford it.
110
314387
3292
以及整体上我们付出了多少努力
才能负担得起这些薪水？
才能负担得起这些薪水？
05:29
So let's give people these three
pieces of information.
pieces of information.
111
317679
2585
那么我们提供给人们这三样信息。
05:32
So we started having, in the cafeteria,
112
320264
2008
于是在公司的就餐区，
05:34
a computer where you could go in
and you could ask
and you could ask
113
322272
2501
我们设立了一台计算机，
你可以进去查询
你可以进去查询
05:36
what someone spent,
how much someone makes,
how much someone makes,
114
324773
2197
什么人花了多少钱，
有了多少收入，
有了多少收入，
05:38
what they make in benefits,
what the company makes,
what the company makes,
115
326970
2480
他们创造了多少利润，
公司盈利了多少，
公司盈利了多少，
05:41
what the margins are, and so forth.
116
329450
2310
还有多少利润，等等。
05:43
And this is 25 years ago.
117
331760
2762
这是在25年以前。
05:47
As this information started
coming to people,
coming to people,
118
335452
2735
当人们开始接触这些信息，
05:50
we said things like, we don't want
to see your expense report,
to see your expense report,
119
338187
3109
我们会说，
我们对你们的花费报告没有兴趣，
我们对你们的花费报告没有兴趣，
05:53
we don't want to know how many
holidays you're taking,
holidays you're taking,
120
341296
2572
不想知道你们花了多少天休假，
也不想知道你们在哪工作。
05:55
we don't want to know where you work.
121
343892
1888
05:57
We had, at one point,
14 different offices around town,
14 different offices around town,
122
345780
2976
我们在某个时期在一个城镇
有14个不同的办公室，
有14个不同的办公室，
06:00
and we'd say, go to the one
that's closest to your house,
that's closest to your house,
123
348756
3394
我们会说，去那个离你家最近，
06:04
to the customer that
you're going to visit today.
you're going to visit today.
124
352150
2501
离你今天要见的客户最近的地方上班。
06:06
Don't tell us where you are.
125
354651
2119
不要告诉我们你在哪。
06:08
And more, even when we had
thousands of people, 5,000 people,
thousands of people, 5,000 people,
126
356770
4125
还有，即便我们有几千个雇员，
5000人左右，
5000人左右，
06:12
we had two people in the H.R. department,
127
360895
3378
我们的HR部门只有2个人，
06:16
and thankfully one of them has retired.
128
364273
2398
谢天谢地其中一个已经退休了。
06:18
(Laughter)
129
366671
1959
（笑声）
06:20
And so, the question we were asking was,
how can we be taking care of people?
how can we be taking care of people?
130
368630
3754
那么我们问的问题就是，
我们要怎么关心员工呢？
我们要怎么关心员工呢？
06:24
People are the only thing we have.
131
372384
1803
员工是我们拥有的一切。
06:26
We can't have a department that runs
after people and looks after people.
after people and looks after people.
132
374187
3438
我们无法设立一个部门专门
照顾员工们的日常事务。
照顾员工们的日常事务。
06:29
So as we started finding that this worked,
and we'd say, we're looking for --
and we'd say, we're looking for --
133
377625
5381
于是当我们开始发现这种方式能够奏效，
我们就开始寻找——
我们就开始寻找——
06:35
and this is, I think,
the main thing I was looking for
the main thing I was looking for
134
383006
2695
我觉得这是我在公司时的终结日里
06:37
in the terminal days and in the company,
135
385701
2043
重点要探索的东西，
就是说，我们要怎样让公司
以更睿智的方式运作？
以更睿智的方式运作？
06:39
which is, how do you set up for wisdom?
136
387744
3569
06:43
We've come from an age of revolution,
industrial revolution,
industrial revolution,
137
391313
4676
我们已经走过了革命时代，
工业革命，
工业革命，
06:47
an age of information,
an age of knowledge,
an age of knowledge,
138
395989
2683
信息时代，知识时代，
06:50
but we're not any closer
to the age of wisdom.
to the age of wisdom.
139
398672
2612
但是我们从未走近过睿智时代。
06:53
How we design, how do we organize,
for more wisdom?
for more wisdom?
140
401284
3327
我们要如何更智慧的
进行设计和组织活动？
进行设计和组织活动？
06:56
So for example, many times,
141
404611
1543
比方说，有很多次，
06:58
what's the smartest or the intelligent
decision doesn't jive.
decision doesn't jive.
142
406154
4347
最聪明或者最明智的决定并不奏效。
07:02
So we'd say things like,
143
410501
2382
我们就会说，
我们来做这样一个约定：
你每周要售出57个器件。
你每周要售出57个器件。
07:04
let's agree that you're going to sell
57 widgets per week.
57 widgets per week.
144
412883
4007
07:08
If you sell them by Wednesday,
please go to the beach.
please go to the beach.
145
416890
3673
如果你在周三前卖完，就赶紧去休假吧。
07:12
Don't create a problem for us,
for manufacturing, for application,
for manufacturing, for application,
146
420563
3711
不要给我们制造问题，
不管是在制造上还是应用上，
不管是在制造上还是应用上，
07:16
then we have to buy new companies,
we have to buy our competitors,
we have to buy our competitors,
147
424274
3103
否则我们就得买新的公司，
我们就得把我们的竞争对手买下来，
我们就得把我们的竞争对手买下来，
就因为你卖了太多器件，
我们就得忙到不可开交。
我们就得忙到不可开交。
07:19
we have to do all kinds of things
because you sold too many widgets.
because you sold too many widgets.
148
427377
3222
所以赶紧去休假吧，
周一再回来继续干活儿。
周一再回来继续干活儿。
07:22
So go to the beach
and start again on Monday.
and start again on Monday.
149
430599
2236
07:24
(Laughter) (Applause)
150
432835
2436
（笑声）（掌声）
07:27
So the process is looking for wisdom.
151
435271
3339
所以这个过程就是寻找智慧。
07:30
And in the process, of course,
we wanted people to know everything,
we wanted people to know everything,
152
438610
3540
在这个过程中，
我们当然想让员工了解每件事，
我们当然想让员工了解每件事，
07:34
and we wanted to be truly democratic
about the way we ran things.
about the way we ran things.
153
442150
3369
我们想要在一切行动中
都做到真正的民主。
都做到真正的民主。
07:37
So our board had two seats open
with the same voting rights,
with the same voting rights,
154
445519
5691
所以我们的董事会还有2个
具有相同选举权的空位，
具有相同选举权的空位，
07:43
for the first two people who showed up.
155
451210
2118
先过来应征的2个人就能得到。
07:45
(Laughter)
156
453328
1568
（笑声）
07:46
And so we had cleaning ladies voting
on a board meeting,
on a board meeting,
157
454896
5236
于是我们的董事会上出现了
清洁工大妈在投票，
清洁工大妈在投票，
07:52
which had a lot of other very important
people in suits and ties.
people in suits and ties.
158
460132
3096
其他的都是西装革履的权高位重之人。
07:55
And the fact is that they kept us honest.
159
463228
3629
事实就是他们让我们始终保持坦诚。
07:58
This process, as we started looking
at the people who came to us,
at the people who came to us,
160
466857
3749
这个过程，当我们开始关注来应聘的人，
08:02
we'd say, now wait a second,
161
470606
1578
我们会说，等一下，
08:04
people come to us and they say,
where am I supposed to sit?
where am I supposed to sit?
162
472184
2883
来找我们的人会说，
我要坐在哪儿等呢？
我要坐在哪儿等呢？
08:07
How am I supposed to work?
Where am I going to be in 5 years' time?
Where am I going to be in 5 years' time?
163
475067
3240
我要怎么工作？
工作5年之后我的职业发展是什么样子？
工作5年之后我的职业发展是什么样子？
08:10
And we looked at that and we said,
we have to start much earlier.
we have to start much earlier.
164
478308
3078
我们看着这种情况说，
我们得早点行动。
我们得早点行动。
我们要从哪儿开始呢？
08:13
Where do we start?
165
481386
1023
我们说，哦，
幼儿园看起来是个不错的地儿。
幼儿园看起来是个不错的地儿。
08:14
We said, oh, kindergarten
seems like a good place.
seems like a good place.
166
482409
2515
于是我们设立了一个基金，到目前为止，
在11年内已经开设了3所学校，
在11年内已经开设了3所学校，
08:16
So we set up a foundation, which now has,
for 11 years, three schools,
for 11 years, three schools,
167
484924
4657
08:21
where we started asking
the same questions,
the same questions,
168
489581
2302
在那里我们开始问同样的问题，
08:23
how do you redesign school for wisdom?
169
491883
2912
你们要如何重新设计出更睿智的学校？
08:26
It is one thing to say,
we need to recycle the teachers,
we need to recycle the teachers,
170
494795
2929
总结一下可以这么说，
我们需要更新师资队伍，
我们需要更新师资队伍，
08:29
we need the directors to do more.
171
497724
1674
我们需要校长做更多的事情。
08:31
But the fact is that what we do
with education is entirely obsolete.
with education is entirely obsolete.
172
499401
5932
但事实是我们在教育上
做的事情已经完全过时了。
做的事情已经完全过时了。
08:37
The teacher's role is entirely obsolete.
173
505333
2498
教师的角色也已经完全过时了。
08:39
Going from a math class, to biology,
to 14th-century France is very silly.
to 14th-century France is very silly.
174
507831
5647
上完数学课，去上生物课，
再了解下14世纪的法国，这简直太傻了。
再了解下14世纪的法国，这简直太傻了。
08:45
(Applause)
175
513482
4702
（掌声）
08:50
So we started thinking,
what could it look like?
what could it look like?
176
518184
2729
于是我们开始想，
新式的学校应该是什么样子呢？
新式的学校应该是什么样子呢？
08:52
And we put together people,
including people who like education,
including people who like education,
177
520913
3569
我们把大家聚在一起，
他们当中包括热爱教育的人们，
他们当中包括热爱教育的人们，
08:56
people like Paulo Freire,
and two ministers of education in Brazil
and two ministers of education in Brazil
178
524482
5435
像保罗弗雷勒（巴西教育家，哲学家）
这样的人，还有巴西的教育部长们，
这样的人，还有巴西的教育部长们，
我们问，如果我们要
彻底重新建立一所学校，
彻底重新建立一所学校，
09:01
and we said, if we were to design
a school from scratch,
a school from scratch,
179
529917
2669
09:04
what would it look like?
180
532586
1427
应该是一所什么样的学校呢？
09:06
And so we created this school,
which is called Lumiar,
which is called Lumiar,
181
534013
3733
于是我们创立了这么一类学校，
叫做Lumiar，
叫做Lumiar，
09:09
and Lumiar, one of them
is a public school,
is a public school,
182
537746
2152
其中一所是公立学校，
09:11
and Lumiar says the following:
183
539898
1806
Lumiar的口号是这样的：
09:13
Let's divide this role
of the teacher into two.
of the teacher into two.
184
541704
4177
我们要把教师的角色分成两部分。
09:17
One guy, we'll call a tutor.
185
545881
2361
其中一部分我们叫他家庭教师。
09:20
A tutor, in the old sense of the Greek
"paideia": Look after the kid.
"paideia": Look after the kid.
186
548242
4975
一个家庭教师，古希腊语称作"paideia“：
也就是照看孩子的人。
也就是照看孩子的人。
09:25
What's happening at home,
what's their moment in life, etc..
what's their moment in life, etc..
187
553217
3830
主要负责家里杂事，
他们生命中的重要时刻，等等。
他们生命中的重要时刻，等等。
09:29
But please don't teach,
188
557047
1340
但是不要教课，
09:30
because the little you know compared
to Google, we don't want to know.
to Google, we don't want to know.
189
558387
3410
因为你知道的那点儿东西跟谷歌比起来
根本不算什么，我们也不想知道。
根本不算什么，我们也不想知道。
你自己留着就好了。
09:33
Keep that to yourself.
190
561797
1152
09:34
(Laughter)
191
562949
1348
（笑声）
现在，我们主要招募的是
具备如下两个条件的人：
具备如下两个条件的人：
09:36
Now, we'll bring in people
who have two things:
who have two things:
192
564297
3953
09:40
passion and expertise, and it could be
their profession or not.
their profession or not.
193
568250
4367
有热情，并且具备专业能力，
不过未必要跟他们从事的职业相关。
不过未必要跟他们从事的职业相关。
09:44
And we use the senior citizens,
194
572617
1917
我们雇佣年长一些的公民，
09:46
who are 25 percent of the population
with wisdom that nobody wants anymore.
with wisdom that nobody wants anymore.
195
574534
4353
他们占据了25%的人口，
具备其他人不具备的智慧。
具备其他人不具备的智慧。
09:50
So we bring them to school and we say,
196
578887
2607
于是我们邀请他们来到学校，跟他们说，
09:53
teach these kids whatever
you really believe in.
you really believe in.
197
581494
3836
教会这些孩子你们所信仰的东西。
09:57
So we have violinists teaching math.
198
585330
2616
于是我们的小提琴家在教授数学。
09:59
We have all kinds of things where we say,
199
587946
2565
在很多事情上我们都会说，
10:02
don't worry about
the course material anymore.
the course material anymore.
200
590511
2981
不要再担心教学材料了。
10:05
We have approximately 10 great threads
that go from 2 to 17.
that go from 2 to 17.
201
593492
4964
我们大概有针对2-17岁年龄的
10种绝佳的设想。
10种绝佳的设想。
10:10
Things like, how do we measure
ourselves as humans?
ourselves as humans?
202
598456
4390
例如，作为人类，我们要如何定位自己？
10:14
So there's a place for math and physics
and all that there.
and all that there.
203
602846
3626
于是就有了一个教授数学
和物理等学科的地方。
和物理等学科的地方。
10:18
How do we express ourselves?
204
606472
1864
我们要如何表达自己的想法和感受？
10:20
So there's a place
for music and literature, etc.,
for music and literature, etc.,
205
608336
2405
于是就有了一个教授音乐
和文学的地方，等等，
和文学的地方，等等，
还有语法。
10:22
but also for grammar.
206
610741
1644
我们还做了一些几乎所有人
都忘记了的事，
都忘记了的事，
10:24
And then we have things
that everyone has forgotten,
that everyone has forgotten,
207
612385
2657
10:27
which are probably the most
important things in life.
important things in life.
208
615042
2569
这些可能是生命中最重要的事。
生命中最重要的一些事，
我们却一无所知。
我们却一无所知。
10:29
The very important things in life,
we know nothing about.
we know nothing about.
209
617611
3698
10:33
We know nothing about love,
210
621309
2240
我们完全不了解爱，
10:35
we know nothing about death,
211
623549
2092
完全不了解死亡，
10:37
we know nothing about why we're here.
212
625641
2077
我们完全不知道自己为什么会在这里。
10:39
So we need a thread in school that
talks about everything we don't know.
talks about everything we don't know.
213
627718
4534
所以我们需要学校提供一些思路
告诉我们每一件我们不知道的事。
告诉我们每一件我们不知道的事。
10:44
So that's a big part of what we do.
214
632252
2104
那就是我们工作的主要部分。
10:46
(Applause)
215
634356
5595
（掌声）
10:51
So over the years, we started going
into other things.
into other things.
216
639951
2918
过去的这些年，我们开始涉足其他领域。
10:54
We'd say, why do we have to scold the kids
217
642869
2162
我们会问，为什么我们需要斥责孩子们，
10:57
and say, sit down and come here
and do that, and so forth.
and do that, and so forth.
218
645031
2791
告诉他们坐下，过来，做那个，等等。
10:59
We said, let's get the kids to do
something we call a circle,
something we call a circle,
219
647822
3315
我们决定让孩子们做一件
我们称之为周期的事，
我们称之为周期的事，
也就是每周会面一次。
11:03
which meets once a week.
220
651137
1265
11:04
And we'd say, you put the rules together
221
652402
2310
我们对他们说，你们自己制定规则，
11:06
and then you decide
what you want to do with it.
what you want to do with it.
222
654712
2327
然后自己来决定你们要怎么做。
11:09
So can you all hit yourself on the head?
223
657039
2182
那么你们能每周想出一个点子吗？
11:11
Sure, for a week, try.
224
659221
2322
当然，花一周的时间试试看。
11:13
They came up with the very same
rules that we had,
rules that we had,
225
661543
3935
他们想到了跟我们制定的
规则一样的规矩，
规则一样的规矩，
11:17
except they're theirs.
226
665478
1391
只不过这是他们自己的点子。
11:18
And then, they have the power,
227
666869
2245
然后他们就有权力了，
11:21
which means, they can and do
suspend and expel kids
suspend and expel kids
228
669114
4992
也就是说他们能够让孩子们
停课甚至把他们开除，
停课甚至把他们开除，
11:26
so that we're not playing school,
they really decide.
they really decide.
229
674106
5398
这样一来就不是我们在运营学校，
他们才是真正做决定的人。
他们才是真正做决定的人。
11:31
And then, in this same vein,
230
679504
3043
然后，用同样的方式，
11:34
we keep a digital mosaic,
231
682547
2394
我们保留了一个数码马赛克，
11:36
because this is not constructivist
or Montessori or something.
or Montessori or something.
232
684941
3631
因为这不是构成论法或者蒙特梭利
（意大利女医师及教育家）之类的教育法。
（意大利女医师及教育家）之类的教育法。
11:40
It's something where we keep
the Brazilian curriculum
the Brazilian curriculum
233
688572
3538
我们的做法能够以600块马赛克的形式
11:44
with 600 tiles of a mosaic,
234
692110
2668
保留巴西的教育课程，
11:46
which we want to expose these kids
to by the time they're 17.
to by the time they're 17.
235
694778
3137
希望这些孩子在17岁前都能够接触到。
11:49
And follow this all the time
and we know how they're doing
and we know how they're doing
236
697915
2835
我们一直在追踪他们的进度，
我们知道他们表现的如何，
我们知道他们表现的如何，
11:52
and we say, you're not interested
in this now, let's wait a year.
in this now, let's wait a year.
237
700750
4040
我们会说，你现在对这个不太感兴趣，
再等一年看看。
再等一年看看。
11:56
And the kids are in groups
that don't have an age category,
that don't have an age category,
238
704804
4232
这些孩子被划分成了很多组，
但是并不以年龄为划分标准，
但是并不以年龄为划分标准，
12:01
so the six-year-old kid
who is ready for that with an 11-year-old,
who is ready for that with an 11-year-old,
239
709036
3726
于是6岁的孩子可以跟一个
11岁的孩子上同样的课，
11岁的孩子上同样的课，
12:04
that eliminates all of the gangs
and the groups
and the groups
240
712762
2365
这就消除了所有的帮派和团体，
12:07
and this stuff that we have
in the schools, in general.
in the schools, in general.
241
715127
3885
通常这些现象在普通的学校都很常见。
12:11
And they have a zero
to 100 percent grading,
to 100 percent grading,
242
719012
2441
我们有0到100%的评分制度，
12:13
which they do themselves with an app
every couple of hours.
every couple of hours.
243
721453
3801
每隔几个小时他们自己就用
应用软件给自己打分。
应用软件给自己打分。
12:17
Until we know they're 37 percent of the
way we'd like them to be on this issue,
way we'd like them to be on this issue,
244
725254
4435
直到我们认为他们已经掌握了
我们所要求的37%左右的技能，
我们所要求的37%左右的技能，
12:21
so that we can send them out in the world
with them knowing enough about it.
with them knowing enough about it.
245
729689
4895
我们就会把他们推到社会上去，
因为他们已经掌握了足够的知识技能。
因为他们已经掌握了足够的知识技能。
12:26
And so the courses are World Cup Soccer,
or building a bicycle.
or building a bicycle.
246
734584
5243
我们提供的的课程就是看世界杯足球赛，
或者拼装一辆自行车。
或者拼装一辆自行车。
12:31
And people will sign up for
a 45-day course on building a bicycle.
a 45-day course on building a bicycle.
247
739827
4271
学生们一般都会注册一个
45天的自行车组装课。
45天的自行车组装课。
12:36
Now, try to build a bicycle without
knowing that pi is 3.1416.
knowing that pi is 3.1416.
248
744098
4569
尝试在不知道pi的值是3.1416的
情况下组装一辆自行车。
情况下组装一辆自行车。
12:40
You can't.
249
748667
1764
你们做不到吧。
12:42
And try, any one of you,
using 3.1416 for something.
using 3.1416 for something.
250
750431
4512
你们都试一下用3.1416做点什么。
12:47
You don't know anymore.
251
755083
1506
你们应该都想不出来了。
12:48
So this is lost and that's what
we try to do there,
we try to do there,
252
756589
2431
也就是说这种能力已经丧失了，
这也正是我们在学校里教的，
这也正是我们在学校里教的，
12:51
which is looking
for wisdom in that school.
for wisdom in that school.
253
759020
2114
也就说在我们的学校里寻找智慧。
12:53
And that brings us back to this graph
and this distribution of our life.
and this distribution of our life.
254
761134
5560
这就把我们带回了这幅蓝图，
以及我们生活的这种分布状态。
以及我们生活的这种分布状态。
12:59
I accumulated a lot of money
when I think about it.
when I think about it.
255
767090
2661
当我想到这个问题，我募集了很多钱。
13:01
When you think and you say,
now is the time to give back --
now is the time to give back --
256
769751
4247
你们仔细想想之后就会说，
现在是时候回馈社会了——
现在是时候回馈社会了——
13:05
well, if you're giving back,
you took too much.
you took too much.
257
773998
2672
不过，如果你想要回馈，
那就说明你已经拿的太多了。
那就说明你已经拿的太多了。
13:08
(Laughter) (Applause)
258
776670
7052
（笑声）（掌声）
13:16
I keep thinking of Warren Buffet
waking up one day
waking up one day
259
784822
2580
我总是会想到沃伦·巴菲特
（美国投资家，“股神”）某天醒来，
（美国投资家，“股神”）某天醒来，
13:19
and finding out he has 30 billion dollars
more than he thought he had.
more than he thought he had.
260
787402
3384
发现他拥有的资产比之前
想象的还要多300亿美元。
想象的还要多300亿美元。
13:22
And he looks and he says,
what am I going to do with this?
what am I going to do with this?
261
790786
2792
他看着这个数字说道，
我要拿这些钱干点什么呢？
我要拿这些钱干点什么呢？
他说，我得把它给真正需要的人。
13:25
And he says, I'll give it to someone
who really needs this.
who really needs this.
262
793578
2837
我要把它给比尔·盖茨。
（笑声）
（笑声）
13:28
I'll give it to Bill Gates. (Laughter)
263
796415
2288
13:32
And my guy, who's my financial
advisor in New York,
advisor in New York,
264
800086
3150
我在纽约的财务顾问，
13:35
he says, look, you're a silly guy
265
803236
1893
他说，看，你太傻了，
13:37
because you would have 4.1 times
more money today
more money today
266
805129
3273
如果你用钱生钱，
而不是把它们捐出去，
而不是把它们捐出去，
13:40
if you had made money with money
instead of sharing as you go.
instead of sharing as you go.
267
808402
4260
你现在就会拥有相当于
之前4.1倍的资产了。
之前4.1倍的资产了。
13:44
But I like sharing as you go better.
268
812668
1812
不过我还是更喜欢把它们捐出去。
13:46
(Applause)
269
814480
3306
（笑声）
13:49
I taught MBAs at MIT for a time
270
817786
4272
我以前在麻省理工给MBA学生们上过课，
13:54
and I ended up, one day,
at the Mount Auburn Cemetery.
at the Mount Auburn Cemetery.
271
822058
2606
有一天我路过 Mount Auburn公墓。
13:56
It is a beautiful cemetery in Cambridge.
272
824664
1944
这片坐落在剑桥镇的公墓很漂亮。
13:58
And I was walking around.
It was my birthday and I was thinking.
It was my birthday and I was thinking.
273
826608
3042
我在公墓里走来走去。
那天是我的生日，我在思考。
那天是我的生日，我在思考。
14:01
And the first time around,
I saw these tombstones
I saw these tombstones
274
829650
2394
第一次，我看到了这些墓碑，
14:04
and these wonderful people
who'd done great things
who'd done great things
275
832044
2773
还有这些建立了丰功伟绩的出色的人们，
14:06
and I thought, what do I want
to be remembered for?
to be remembered for?
276
834817
3882
我就在想，
我想要别人因为什么记住我呢？
我想要别人因为什么记住我呢？
14:10
And I did another stroll around,
277
838889
1596
我又在墓地里绕了一圈，
14:12
and the second time,
another question came to me,
another question came to me,
278
840485
2445
第二次，我又想到了一个问题，
14:14
which did me better, which was,
279
842930
2303
对我更有帮助，
14:17
why do I want to be remembered at all?
280
845233
2887
为什么我要让人们记住我呢？
14:20
(Laughter)
281
848120
2137
（笑声）
14:22
And that, I think,
took me different places.
took me different places.
282
850257
2821
我觉得是这种想法把
我带去了不同的地方。
我带去了不同的地方。
14:25
When I was 50, my wife Fernanda and I
sat for a whole afternoon,
sat for a whole afternoon,
283
853078
4248
在我50岁的时候，
我和妻子费尔南德花了一个下午，
我和妻子费尔南德花了一个下午，
14:29
we had a big pit with fire,
284
857326
2182
我们有一个大火坑，
14:31
and I threw everything I had ever
done into that fire.
done into that fire.
285
859508
3576
我把自己过去的所有成就
全都付之一炬了。
全都付之一炬了。
14:35
This is a book in 38 languages,
286
863084
2387
有一本被译成了38种语言的书，
14:37
hundreds and hundreds of articles
and DVDs, everything there was.
and DVDs, everything there was.
287
865471
3547
成百上千的文章和DVD，
几乎所有手边的东西。
几乎所有手边的东西。
14:41
And that did two things.
288
869018
1420
这就产生了两个结果。
14:42
One, it freed our five kids
from following in our steps, our shadow --
from following in our steps, our shadow --
289
870438
4925
一个是解放了我们的5个孩子，他们不需要
继承我们的家业，生活在我们的阴影中——
继承我们的家业，生活在我们的阴影中——
14:47
They don't know what I do.
290
875363
1656
他们不会知道我做了什么。
14:49
(Laughter)
291
877019
1224
（笑声）
14:50
Which is good.
292
878243
1309
这很好。
14:51
And I'm not going to take them somewhere
293
879552
1925
我也不会把他们带去什么地方，
14:53
and say, one day
all of this will be yours.
all of this will be yours.
294
881477
2394
跟他们说，
有一天这一切都会是你们的。
有一天这一切都会是你们的。
14:55
(Laughter)
295
883871
1557
（笑声）
14:57
The five kids know nothing, which is good.
296
885428
3532
这五个孩子一无所知，这很好。
15:00
And the second thing is,
297
888960
1681
第二个就是，
15:02
I freed myself from this anchor
of past achievement or whatever.
of past achievement or whatever.
298
890641
4698
我把自己从过去的成就之类的
东西中解放了出来。
东西中解放了出来。
15:07
I'm free to start something new every time
and to decide things from scratch
and to decide things from scratch
299
895339
4498
我可以自由的利用
那些终结日做些新鲜事儿，
那些终结日做些新鲜事儿，
15:11
in part of those terminal days.
300
899837
2121
从零开始做决定。
15:13
And some people would say,
301
901958
1417
一些人会说，
15:15
oh, so now you have this time,
these terminal days,
these terminal days,
302
903375
2538
噢，现在你有了这些终结日里的时间，
15:17
and so you go out and do everything.
303
905913
1858
可以走出去做任何事。
15:19
No, we've been to the beaches,
304
907771
2322
不是的，我们去过了海滩，
15:22
so we've been to Samoa and Maldives
and Mozambique,
and Mozambique,
305
910093
2562
我们去了萨摩亚群岛，
马尔代夫，和莫桑比克，
马尔代夫，和莫桑比克，
15:24
so that's done.
306
912655
1766
这些都做过了。
15:26
I've climbed mountains in the Himalayas.
307
914421
2109
我爬过了喜马拉雅的山峰。
15:28
I've gone down 60 meters to see
hammerhead sharks.
hammerhead sharks.
308
916530
3871
我也下潜到过60米的深海，
见到了锤头鲨。
见到了锤头鲨。
15:32
I've spent 59 days on the back of a camel
from Chad to Timbuktu.
from Chad to Timbuktu.
309
920401
4551
我花了59天的时间骑着骆驼从乍得（中非国家）
到了延巴克图（西非马里共和国城市）。
到了延巴克图（西非马里共和国城市）。
15:36
I've gone to the magnetic
North Pole on a dog sled.
North Pole on a dog sled.
310
924952
3991
我坐着雪橇犬拉的爬犁到过北磁极。
15:40
So, we've been busy.
311
928943
1776
我们一直很忙。
15:42
It's what I'd like to call
my empty bucket list.
my empty bucket list.
312
930719
6003
我把这叫做空清单。
15:48
(Laughter)
313
936722
2979
（笑声）
15:51
And with this rationale,
I look at these days and I think,
I look at these days and I think,
314
939701
3557
带着这种逻辑，
我回顾这些日子，我就想，
我回顾这些日子，我就想，
15:55
I'm not retired.
I don't feel retired at all.
I don't feel retired at all.
315
943258
2519
我还没退休呢。
我一点也没觉得自己已经退休了。
我一点也没觉得自己已经退休了。
15:57
And so I'm writing a new book.
316
945777
2141
于是我又开始写一本新书。
15:59
We started three new companies
in the last two years.
in the last two years.
317
947918
3813
我们在过去的两年里
又开设了3个新公司。
又开设了3个新公司。
我现在正在努力让这种教育系统
面向全世界免费开放，
面向全世界免费开放，
16:03
I'm now working on getting this
school system for free out into the world,
school system for free out into the world,
318
951731
5203
16:08
and I've found, very interestingly enough,
that nobody wants it for free.
that nobody wants it for free.
319
956934
3429
我还发现一个非常有趣的现象，
没有人希望免费的接受这种教育。
没有人希望免费的接受这种教育。
我已经尝试了10年,
16:12
And so I've been trying for 10 years
320
960387
1938
想让公共系统接受这种教育理念，
16:14
to get the public system
to take over this school rationale,
to take over this school rationale,
321
962325
3425
比如让我们目前的公立学校，
16:17
much as the public schools we have,
322
965750
2395
不再使用43/100的评分制度，
16:20
which has instead of 43 out of 100,
as their rating, as their grades,
as their rating, as their grades,
323
968145
4697
16:24
has 91 out of 100.
324
972842
2689
而是使用91/100的制度。
16:27
But for free, nobody wants it.
325
975531
2433
但是如果免费，没有人想要。
16:29
So maybe we'll start charging for it
and then it will go somewhere.
and then it will go somewhere.
326
977964
3194
所以可能我们要开始收点钱，
慢慢的人们就会接受它。
慢慢的人们就会接受它。
16:33
But getting this out is one
of the things we want to do.
of the things we want to do.
327
981158
3781
但是让这个办法奏效是我们的目的之一。
16:36
And I think what this leaves us
as a message for all of you,
as a message for all of you,
328
984939
3317
我觉得这就给我们所有人
留下了一个信息，
留下了一个信息，
16:40
I think is a little bit like this:
329
988256
1752
我觉得可以这样理解：
16:42
We've all learned
how to go on Sunday night
how to go on Sunday night
330
990008
3157
我们都知道如何在周日晚上
在家里收发邮件和工作。
16:45
to email and work from home.
331
993165
2417
16:47
But very few of us have learned
332
995582
1710
但是我们当中很少有人知道
如何在周一下午去看电影。
16:49
how to go to the movies
on Monday afternoon.
on Monday afternoon.
333
997292
3130
16:52
And if we're looking for wisdom,
we need to learn to do that as well.
we need to learn to do that as well.
334
1000422
4101
如果我们在寻找智慧，
我们就也需要知道如何做到这一点。
我们就也需要知道如何做到这一点。
16:56
And so, what we've done all
of these years is very simple,
of these years is very simple,
335
1004523
3650
所以我们这些年做的事情其实很简单，
17:00
is use the little tool,
which is ask three whys in a row.
which is ask three whys in a row.
336
1008173
3172
比如利用一些小技巧，
也就是同时问三个为什么。
也就是同时问三个为什么。
17:03
Because the first why
you always have a good answer for.
you always have a good answer for.
337
1011345
2761
因为第一个问题你总是有
一个很好的答案。
一个很好的答案。
17:06
The second why,
it starts getting difficult.
it starts getting difficult.
338
1014106
2415
第二个问题，就有点难了。
17:08
By the third why, you don't really know
why you're doing what you're doing.
why you're doing what you're doing.
339
1016521
3939
到了第三个问题，
你根本不知道为何你要做现在正在做的事。
你根本不知道为何你要做现在正在做的事。
17:12
What I want to leave you with is the seed
and the thought that maybe if you do this,
and the thought that maybe if you do this,
340
1020460
6228
我想让这种想法在你们的头脑中扎根，
可能如果你们这么做了，
可能如果你们这么做了，
会遇到一个问题，为什么要做这个呢？
17:18
you will come to the question, what for?
341
1026688
2756
17:21
What am I doing this for?
342
1029444
1502
我现在做的事是为了什么呢？
17:22
And hopefully, as a result of that,
and over time,
and over time,
343
1030946
2881
希望随着时间过去，可以得到这样的结果，
17:25
I hope that with this,
and that's what I'm wishing you,
and that's what I'm wishing you,
344
1033827
3133
我希望，也是对你们的期待，
17:28
you'll have a much wiser future.
345
1036960
2703
你们会有一个更睿智的未来。
谢谢大家。
17:31
Thank you very much.
346
1039663
1785
17:33
(Applause)
347
1041448
7539
（掌声）
17:45
Chris Anderson: So Ricardo,
you're kind of crazy.
you're kind of crazy.
348
1053957
5087
Chris Anderson（以下称CA）:
那么里卡多，您还真是疯狂啊。
那么里卡多，您还真是疯狂啊。
17:51
(Laughter)
349
1059044
1825
（笑声）
17:52
To many people, this seems crazy.
350
1060869
3180
对于很多人来说，这看起来很疯狂。
17:56
And yet so deeply wise, also.
351
1064049
3389
不过也蕴藏了很深的智慧。
17:59
The pieces I'm trying
to put together are this:
to put together are this:
352
1067438
2909
我想试着总结一下：
18:02
Your ideas are so radical.
353
1070347
2095
您的理念非常的前卫。
18:04
How, in business, for example,
these ideas have been out for a while,
these ideas have been out for a while,
354
1072442
5049
比如说，在商业中，
这些理念一直被排斥在外，
这些理念一直被排斥在外，
18:10
probably the percentage of businesses
that have taken some of them
that have taken some of them
355
1078191
3210
可能采用这些理念的公司
18:13
is still quite low.
356
1081401
1902
比例还是非常低的。
18:15
Are there any times you've seen
some big company
some big company
357
1083303
2898
有没有哪次你见到某个大公司
18:18
take on one of your ideas
and you've gone, "Yes!"?
and you've gone, "Yes!"?
358
1086201
3629
采纳了您的某个理念，
而您也接受了呢？
而您也接受了呢？
18:21
Ricardo Semler: It happens.
It happened about two weeks ago
It happened about two weeks ago
359
1089830
2797
Ricardo Semier（以下称RS）：
这种情况发生过，大概两周前吧，
这种情况发生过，大概两周前吧，
18:24
with Richard Branson,
with his people saying,
with his people saying,
360
1092627
2210
理查德·布兰森
（英国维珍集团执行长）的人说，
（英国维珍集团执行长）的人说，
18:26
oh, I don't want to control
your holidays anymore,
your holidays anymore,
361
1094837
2532
哦，我再也不想过问你的假期了，
或者Netflix（美国最大的在线DVD租赁商）
也做了一些类似的事情，
也做了一些类似的事情，
18:29
or Netflix does a little bit
of this and that,
of this and that,
362
1097369
2184
不过我不觉得这很重要。
18:31
but I don't think it's very important.
363
1099553
2327
18:33
I'd like to see it happen maybe a little
bit in a bit of a missionary zeal,
bit in a bit of a missionary zeal,
364
1101880
3754
我希望看到它以类似
传教的形式被传播，
传教的形式被传播，
18:37
but that's a very personal one.
365
1105634
1574
不过这只是我个人的观点。
18:39
But the fact is that it takes a leap
of faith about losing control.
of faith about losing control.
366
1107208
4212
不过事实是它很快就会成为
带有失控风险的一种信念飞跃。
带有失控风险的一种信念飞跃。
18:43
And almost nobody who is in control
is ready to take leaps of faith.
is ready to take leaps of faith.
367
1111420
3296
几乎没有哪个有控制力的人会
接受信念的飞跃。
接受信念的飞跃。
18:46
It will have to come from kids
and other people
and other people
368
1114716
2340
它会首先在孩子，或者以不同方式在
18:49
who are starting companies
in a different way.
in a different way.
369
1117056
2242
创业者身上发生。
18:51
CA: So that's the key thing?
370
1119298
1508
CA：所以这就是关键所在吗？
18:52
From your point of view
the evidence is there,
the evidence is there,
371
1120806
2199
依据您的观点，证据就在那里，
从一个商业的观点来看这是可行的，
18:55
in the business point of view this works,
372
1123005
1996
不过人们就是没有勇气去——
闪电般的立刻行动。
闪电般的立刻行动。
18:57
but people just don't have
the courage to -- (Whoosh)
the courage to -- (Whoosh)
373
1125001
2708
18:59
RS: They don't even have the incentive.
374
1127709
2122
RS：他们根本就没有动机。
你正在运作一个有90天授权的公司。
19:01
You're running a company
with a 90-day mandate.
with a 90-day mandate.
375
1129831
2756
19:04
It's a quarterly report.
376
1132587
1879
这是个季度报告。
19:06
If you're not good in 90 days, you're out.
377
1134466
2218
如果你在90天内没有好的表现，
你就得出局。
你就得出局。
19:08
So you say, "Here's a great program that,
in less than one generation --"
in less than one generation --"
378
1136684
3921
如果你说，”这里有个很不错的项目，
只用不到一代人的时间——“
只用不到一代人的时间——“
19:12
And the guy says, "Get out of here."
379
1140605
1924
对方就会说，”你可以离开这儿了。“
19:14
So this is the problem.
380
1142529
1891
这就是问题。
19:16
(Laughter)
381
1144420
2915
（笑声）
19:19
CA: What you're trying to do in education
seems to me incredibly profound.
seems to me incredibly profound.
382
1147335
5316
CA：您在教育领域尝试做的事情
在我看来具有极其深刻的意义。
在我看来具有极其深刻的意义。
19:24
Everyone is bothered about
their country's education system.
their country's education system.
383
1152651
4498
每个人对自己国家的
教育系统都颇有微词。
教育系统都颇有微词。
19:29
No one thinks that
we've caught up yet to a world
we've caught up yet to a world
384
1157149
2773
没人觉得我们已经步入了一个
19:31
where there's Google and all these
technological options.
technological options.
385
1159922
2950
可以自由使用谷歌和各种技术的世界。
19:34
So you've got actual evidence now that
the kids so far going through your system,
the kids so far going through your system,
386
1162872
3870
您现在已经有了确切的证据，
从您的教育系统中走出来的孩子们，
从您的教育系统中走出来的孩子们，
19:38
there's a dramatic increase
in performance.
in performance.
387
1166742
2552
都在能力上有了飞跃性的进步。
19:41
How do we help you move
these ideas forward?
these ideas forward?
388
1169294
2565
那么我们要如何帮助您推广这种理念呢？
19:43
RS: I think it's that problem
of ideas whose time has come.
of ideas whose time has come.
389
1171859
3984
RS：我认为理念问题的时代已经来临了。
19:48
And I've never been very evangelical
about these things.
about these things.
390
1176750
3502
我从来就没有觉得这些是
需要传播的福音。
需要传播的福音。
19:52
We put it out there.
391
1180252
1541
我们就把它放在那儿。
19:53
Suddenly, you find people --
392
1181793
1445
突然，你就发现人们——
在日本有一群人，
让我感到很不安，
让我感到很不安，
19:55
there's a group in Japan,
which scares me very much,
which scares me very much,
393
1183238
2515
19:57
which is called the Semlerists,
and they have 120 companies.
and they have 120 companies.
394
1185753
3165
他们被称作塞姆勒主义者，
他们拥有120所公司。
他们拥有120所公司。
20:00
They've invited me.
I've always been scared to go.
I've always been scared to go.
395
1188918
4371
他们邀请过我。
我总是觉得很恐慌，不太想去。
我总是觉得很恐慌，不太想去。
20:05
And there is a group in Holland
that has 600 small, Dutch companies.
that has 600 small, Dutch companies.
396
1193289
5175
在荷兰有一个组织，
有600个小型荷兰公司。
有600个小型荷兰公司。
20:10
It's something that
will flourish on its own.
will flourish on its own.
397
1198464
2677
它们能够自己蓬勃发展。
20:13
Part of it will be wrong,
and it doesn't matter.
and it doesn't matter.
398
1201141
2491
其中一部分会出现问题，
但是没关系。
但是没关系。
20:15
This will find its own place.
399
1203632
2077
这一部分会自己找到立足之地。
20:17
And I'm afraid
of the other one, which says,
of the other one, which says,
400
1205709
2485
让我感到害怕的是另一部分，
他们会说，
他们会说，
20:20
this is so good you've got to do this.
401
1208194
1932
这个很不错，你应该去做一下。
20:22
Let's set up a system
and put lots of money into it
and put lots of money into it
402
1210126
2666
我们来建立一个系统，投一些钱进去，
然后人们无论如何都会做下去。
20:24
and then people will do it no matter what.
403
1212792
2527
20:27
CA: So you have asked
extraordinary questions your whole life.
extraordinary questions your whole life.
404
1215319
3244
CA：那么您这一生已经问了
很多卓越的问题。
很多卓越的问题。
20:30
It seems to me that's the fuel
that's driven a lot of this.
that's driven a lot of this.
405
1218563
2833
在我看来这些都是这一切发生的动力。
20:33
Do you have any other questions for us,
for TED, for this group here?
for TED, for this group here?
406
1221396
5869
您还有什么其他问题要问我们，
或者TED，或者在座的观众吗？
或者TED，或者在座的观众吗？
20:39
RS: I always come back
to variations of the question
to variations of the question
407
1227265
4589
RS：我总是会回想我儿子在三岁的时候
20:43
that my son asked me when he was three.
408
1231854
3251
问过的各种各样的问题。
20:47
We were sitting in a jacuzzi,
and he said, "Dad, why do we exist?"
and he said, "Dad, why do we exist?"
409
1235105
3941
我们坐在按摩浴缸里，
他说，”爸爸，我们为什么会存在？“
他说，”爸爸，我们为什么会存在？“
20:51
There is no other question.
410
1239056
1564
没有别的问题了。
20:52
Nobody has any other question.
411
1240620
1514
也没人问过其他的问题。
20:54
We have variations of this one question,
from three onwards.
from three onwards.
412
1242134
3989
从三岁以后，我们就有了很多基于
这同一个问题的千变万化的问题。
这同一个问题的千变万化的问题。
20:58
So when you spend time in a company,
in a bureaucracy, in an organization
in a bureaucracy, in an organization
413
1246123
5396
当你花时间在公司，在政府，在某个组织，
21:03
and you're saying, boy --
414
1251519
1623
你会说，孩子——
21:05
how many people do you know
who on their death beds said,
who on their death beds said,
415
1253142
2717
你认识多少人临终前会说，
21:07
boy, I wish I had spent
more time at the office?
more time at the office?
416
1255859
2405
孩子，我希望把更多的时间花在办公室？
21:10
So there's a whole thing
of having the courage now --
of having the courage now --
417
1258264
5050
所以现在有件需要你拿出勇气的事——
21:15
not in a week, not in two months,
418
1263314
1908
不是一个星期，不是2个月，
21:17
not when you find out
you have something --
you have something --
419
1265222
2294
也不是当你突然有了什么想法——
21:19
to say, no, what am I doing this for?
420
1267516
2872
你要说，不，我做这个是为了什么呢？
21:22
Stop everything. Let me do something else.
421
1270388
2117
先停下。做点别的事情吧。
21:24
And it will be okay,
422
1272505
1565
一切都会好的，
21:26
it will be much better
than what you're doing,
than what you're doing,
423
1274070
2271
会比你现在做的事情要好得多，
21:28
if you're stuck in a process.
424
1276341
3108
如果你在某件事情中困住了。
21:31
CA: So that strikes me as a profound
and quite beautiful way to end
and quite beautiful way to end
425
1279449
3202
CA：这就让我能够以一种
深刻和美妙的方式
深刻和美妙的方式
21:34
this penultimate day of TED.
426
1282651
1626
结束倒数第二天的TED讲座。
21:36
Ricardo Semler, thank you so much.
427
1284277
1678
里卡多·塞姆勒，非常感谢！
21:37
RS: Thank you so much.
428
1285955
1577
RS：谢谢大家。
21:39
(Applause)
429
1287532
1652
（掌声）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Ricardo Semler - Organizational changemakerTwo decades after transforming a struggling equipment supplier into a radically democratic and resilient (and successful) company, Ricardo Semler wants organizations to become wise.
Why you should listen
After assuming control of Semler & Company (Semco) from his father in 1980, Brazil's Ricardo Semler began a decades-long quest to create an organization that could function without him, by studying and then implementing what could best be called "corporate democracy", allowing employees to design their own jobs, select their supervisors, and define pay levels. He has then applied the same principles to education, banking and hospitality. All with very good results.
He's now promoting the idea of designing organizations -- companies, schools, NGOs -- for wisdom. With a question as a starting point: If we were to start from scratch, would we design organization X the way we have done it?
More profile about the speakerHe's now promoting the idea of designing organizations -- companies, schools, NGOs -- for wisdom. With a question as a starting point: If we were to start from scratch, would we design organization X the way we have done it?
Ricardo Semler | Speaker | TED.com