ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Bobby Ghosh - Editor
Bobby Ghosh is the Managing Editor at Quartz.

Why you should listen

Bobby Ghosh was the longest serving print journalist in Iraq until he left in 2007 to become Time's World Editor. Formerly an editor-at-large for Time, his work encompasses his broad interests, from restaurant reviews to an extended interview with Egyptian president Mohammad Morsi for his latest cover story. He recently went on patrol in Yemen to view what many hope is the end of the transnational al-Qaeda movement. Ghosh is now the Managing Editor of Quartz.

To explore more of the ideas in Ghosh's talk, read his recent essay for Time Worldwide: "11 Years After 9/11, the Holy World War Is Over and All Jihad is Local" >>

 
More profile about the speaker
Bobby Ghosh | Speaker | TED.com
TEDxGeorgetown

Bobby Ghosh: Why global jihad is losing

Bobby Ghosh: 為何全球聖戰已經輸了

Filmed:
725,096 views

記者 Bobby Ghosh 說,在伊斯蘭歷史中聖戰有兩個面向: 一是向內,自我提昇的修煉;而另外一個則是向外。極少數人(比如最近的賓拉登)認同後者,並以此為由發動針對「西方」的全球暴力行動。Ghosh 認為,賓拉登的全球組織已經分崩離析,現在該是收復這個字眼的時候了。(於 TEDxGeorgetown 中拍攝)
- Editor
Bobby Ghosh is the Managing Editor at Quartz. Full bio

Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.

00:16
I'm going to talk about the power功率 of a word:
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我想談談一個字的力量
00:20
jihad討伐異教徒.
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聖戰
00:23
To the vast廣大 majority多數 of practicing Muslims穆斯林,
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對大多數的穆斯林來說
00:27
jihad討伐異教徒 is an internal內部 struggle鬥爭 for the faith信仰.
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聖戰代表為了信仰的內在修煉
00:31
It is a struggle鬥爭 within, a struggle鬥爭 against反對 vice, sin,
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在內心中的掙扎,與缺陷、罪惡
00:36
temptation誘惑, lust情慾, greed貪心.
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誘惑、慾望還有貪婪奮鬥
00:38
It is a struggle鬥爭 to try and live生活 a life
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想盡辦法過著一個
00:42
that is set by the moral道德 codes代碼 written書面 in the Koran可蘭經.
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依循可蘭經規範的生活
00:48
In that original原版的 idea理念, the concept概念 of jihad討伐異教徒 is as important重要
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原先,聖戰之於穆斯林的重要性
00:54
to Muslims穆斯林 as the idea理念 of grace恩典 is to Christians基督徒.
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大致如恩典之於基督徒
01:00
It's a very powerful強大 word, jihad討伐異教徒, if you look at it in that respect尊重,
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聖戰是個極具力量的字眼,如果你對此抱持敬意
01:03
and there's a certain某些 almost幾乎 mystical神秘 resonance諧振 to it.
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你會發現它有著神秘的共振
01:08
And that's the reason原因 why, for hundreds數以百計 of years年份,
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而這也是為什麼數百年來
01:11
Muslims穆斯林 everywhere到處 have named命名 their children孩子 Jihad討伐異教徒,
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各地的穆斯林以吉哈得 (Jihad) 為他們的孩子命名
01:14
their daughters女兒 as much as their sons兒子, in the same相同 way
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無論男孩女孩,就如同
01:16
that, say, Christians基督徒 name名稱 their daughters女兒 Grace恩典,
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基督徒將女兒取名為葛麗絲 (Grace)
01:20
and Hindus印度教徒, my people, name名稱 our daughters女兒 Bhakti巴克蒂,
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和我一樣的印度教徒,將女兒取名為芭克蒂 (Bhakti)
01:24
which哪一個 means手段, in Sanskrit梵文, spiritual精神 worship崇拜.
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也就是梵語中潛心信奉的意思
01:29
But there have always been, in Islam伊斯蘭教, a small group,
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但在伊斯蘭教中總有一小群人
01:32
a minority少數民族, who believe that jihad討伐異教徒
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這群少數相信聖戰
01:35
is not only an internal內部 struggle鬥爭 but also an external外部 struggle鬥爭
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不只是內在修煉,也是外在奮鬥
01:37
against反對 forces軍隊 that would threaten威脅 the faith信仰, or the faithulfaithul.
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對抗威脅信仰及虔信者的事物
01:44
And some of these people believe that in that struggle鬥爭,
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而這些人裡,有一部分人相信這種奮鬥
01:47
it is sometimes有時 okay to take up arms武器.
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有時是可以使用武力的
01:51
And so the thousands數千 of young年輕 Muslim穆斯林 men男人
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所以數以千計的年輕穆斯林男性
01:53
who flocked蜂擁而至 to Afghanistan阿富汗 in the 1980s
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在1980年代湧入阿富汗
01:56
to fight鬥爭 against反對 the Soviet蘇聯 occupation佔用 of a Muslim穆斯林 country國家,
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為了抵抗蘇聯佔領穆斯林國家
02:00
in their minds頭腦 they were fighting戰鬥 a jihad討伐異教徒,
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在他們心中,這是一場聖戰
02:03
they were doing jihad討伐異教徒,
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他們正在進行聖戰
02:05
and they named命名 themselves他們自己 the Mujahideen聖戰者,
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所以他們自稱聖戰者 (Mujahideen)
02:08
which哪一個 is a word that comes from the same相同 root as jihad討伐異教徒.
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字源和聖戰 (jihad) 一致
02:13
And we forget忘記 this now, but back then
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現在大多數人都忘記了,但那時候
02:16
the Mujahideen聖戰者 were celebrated著名 in this country國家, in America美國.
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聖戰者在這個國家—也就是美國,為此慶祝
02:19
We thought of them as holy warriors勇士 who were taking服用
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我們認為他們是神聖的戰士
02:22
the good fight鬥爭 to the ungodly惡人 communists共產主義者.
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與邪惡的共產主義對抗
02:26
America美國 gave them weapons武器, gave them money,
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美國供給他們武器和資金
02:28
gave them support支持, encouragement鼓勵.
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提供支援和鼓勵
02:31
But within that group, a tiny, smaller group,
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但在其中的一小群人
02:33
a minority少數民族 within a minority少數民族 within a minority少數民族,
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少數人中的極少數
02:37
were coming未來 up with a new and dangerous危險
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想出了一個全新又危險的
02:40
conception概念 of jihad討伐異教徒,
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對於聖戰的定義
02:43
and in time this group would come to be led by Osama烏薩馬 bin箱子 Laden拉登,
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這個團體不久後由奧薩馬賓拉登領導
02:48
and he refined精製 the idea理念.
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他重新定義聖戰
02:50
His idea理念 of jihad討伐異教徒 was a global全球 war戰爭 of terror恐怖,
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在他的想法中,聖戰是全球恐怖戰爭
02:54
primarily主要 targeted針對 at the far enemy敵人,
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針對遙遠的敵人
02:57
at the crusaders十字軍 from the West西, against反對 America美國.
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西方來的十字軍,對抗美國
03:01
And the things he did in the pursuit追求 of this jihad討伐異教徒
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而他為追求聖戰所做的一切
03:04
were so horrendous可怕的, so monstrous滔天,
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是如此駭人
03:07
and had such這樣 great impact碰撞,
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而影響深遠
03:09
that his definition定義 was the one that stuck卡住,
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使他的定義根深蒂固於西方
03:13
not just here in the West西.
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以及世上其他地方
03:14
We didn't know any better. We didn't pause暫停 to ask.
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我們不知道到底是怎麼回事,也沒停下來思索
03:18
We just assumed假定 that if this insane man and his psychopathic心理變態 followers追隨者
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只是假設如果這個瘋子和他的病態追隨者們
03:23
were calling調用 what they did jihad討伐異教徒, then that's what jihad討伐異教徒 must必須 mean.
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稱他們所做的事情為聖戰,那這就是聖戰了
03:28
But it wasn't just us. Even in the Muslim穆斯林 world世界,
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不是只有我們這麼想,在穆斯林世界裡
03:31
his definition定義 of jihad討伐異教徒 began開始 to gain獲得 acceptance驗收.
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這個聖戰的意義逐漸為人所接受
03:36
A year ago I was in Tunis突尼斯, and I met會見 the imam阿訇
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一年前我在突尼斯遇見遇見一個
03:39
of a very small mosque清真寺, an old man.
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小清真寺的阿訇,一個老人
03:41
Fifteen十五 years年份 ago, he named命名 his granddaughter孫女 Jihad討伐異教徒,
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十五年前,他將自己的孫女命名為吉哈得 (Jihad)
03:45
after the old meaning含義. He hoped希望 that a name名稱 like that
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以古老的定義命名,他希望這個名字能
03:48
would inspire啟發 her to live生活 a spiritual精神 life.
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激勵她追求精神生活
03:52
But he told me that after 9/11,
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但他告訴我,在九一一後
03:55
he began開始 to have second第二 thoughts思念.
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他的想法開始改變了
03:58
He worried擔心 that if he called her by that name名稱,
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他很擔心,如果他以這個名字稱呼她
04:00
especially特別 outdoors在戶外, outside in public上市,
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尤其是在戶外,在公共場合
04:02
he might威力 be seen看到 as endorsing贊同 bin箱子 Laden's拉登的 idea理念 of jihad討伐異教徒.
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其他人可能會覺得他認同賓拉登的聖戰
04:08
On Fridays星期五 in his mosque清真寺, he gave sermons布道
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而他在週五清真寺的佈道中
04:11
trying to reclaim回收 the meaning含義 of the word,
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試著還原這個字眼的本來面貌
04:15
but his congregants教徒, the people who came來了 to his mosque清真寺,
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但聚會者,這些來清真寺的人們
04:19
they had seen看到 the videos視頻. They had seen看到 pictures圖片
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看過那些影像和照片
04:21
of the planes飛機 going into the towers, the towers coming未來 down.
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飛機衝入大樓,然後大樓崩塌
04:27
They had heard聽說 bin箱子 Laden拉登 say that that was jihad討伐異教徒,
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他們也聽到賓拉登稱這種舉動為聖戰
04:30
and claimed聲稱 victory勝利 for it. And so the old imam阿訇 worried擔心
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而且自稱他們戰勝了。老阿訇很擔心
04:33
that his words were falling落下 on deaf ears耳朵. No one was paying付款 attention注意.
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人們聽不進他的話,沒有人在注意
04:37
He was wrong錯誤. Some people were paying付款 attention注意,
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但他錯了,有些人在注意他
04:40
but for the wrong錯誤 reasons原因.
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卻是基於錯誤的理由
04:42
The United聯合的 States狀態, at this point, was putting pressure壓力
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在當時的美國,正在對
04:45
on all its Arab阿拉伯 allies盟國, including包含 Tunisia突尼斯,
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所有的阿拉伯盟友施壓,包括突尼西亞
04:47
to stamp郵票 out extremism極端主義 in their societies社會,
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要他們把社會裡的極端份子揪出來
04:52
and this imam阿訇 found發現 himself他自己 suddenly突然 in the crosshairs十字線
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所以阿訇發現他已經成了
04:55
of the Tunisian突尼斯人 intelligence情報 service服務.
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突尼西亞情報局的目標
04:58
They had never paid支付 him any attention注意 before --
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他們從來未曾注意過阿訇
04:59
old man, small mosque清真寺 --
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一個在小清真寺的老人
05:03
but now they began開始 to pay工資 visits訪問,
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但他們開始時常來訪
05:05
and sometimes有時 they would drag拖動 him in for questions問題,
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有時甚至會把他拖去問話
05:07
and always the same相同 question:
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問題總是
05:08
"Why did you name名稱 your granddaughter孫女 Jihad討伐異教徒?
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"你為何將自己的孫女命名為吉哈得"
05:12
Why do you keep using運用 the word jihad討伐異教徒 in your Friday星期五 sermons布道?
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為什麼你在週五佈道中常常提到聖戰這個字眼
05:17
Do you hate討厭 Americans美國人?
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你恨美國人嗎?
05:19
What is your connection連接 to Osama烏薩馬 bin箱子 Laden拉登?"
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你和奧薩瑪賓拉登是什麼關係?
05:23
So to the Tunisian突尼斯人 intelligence情報 agency機構,
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對突尼西亞情報局
05:25
and organizations組織 like it all over the Arab阿拉伯 world世界,
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還有其他阿拉伯世界的類似組織來說
05:28
jihad討伐異教徒 equaled追平 extremism極端主義,
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聖戰等同於極端主義
05:32
Bin箱子 Laden's拉登的 definition定義 had become成為 institutionalized制度化.
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賓拉登的定義已經約定俗成
05:36
That was the power功率 of that word that he was able能夠 to do.
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那是他所能達成的,代表這個字眼的力量
05:40
And it filled填充 this old imam阿訇, it filled填充 him with great sadness.
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而使得老阿訇內心充滿悲傷
05:46
He told me that, of bin箱子 Laden's拉登的 many許多 crimes犯罪, this was,
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他告訴我,賓拉登所犯下的罪行中
05:49
in his mind心神, one that didn't get enough足夠 attention注意,
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他認為大家都忽略了這一點
05:52
that he took this word, this beautiful美麗 idea理念.
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他把這個字以及所代表的良善想法拿走了
05:55
He didn't so much appropriate適當 it as kidnapped綁架 it
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他幾乎是綁架了它
06:00
and debased貶值 it and corrupted損壞 it
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貶低並且以訛傳訛
06:03
and turned轉身 it into something it was never meant意味著 to be,
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讓它轉變為原先並未指涉的事物
06:06
and then persuaded說服了 all of us that it always was
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並且說服所有人這一直都是
06:12
a global全球 jihad討伐異教徒.
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一場全球聖戰
06:14
But the good news新聞 is
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但好消息是
06:18
that the global全球 jihad討伐異教徒 is almost幾乎 over, as bin箱子 Laden拉登 defined定義 it.
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依照賓拉登的定義,全球聖戰已經幾乎結束了
06:24
It was dying垂死 well before he did,
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在他發起前就已奄奄一息
06:26
and now it's on its last legs.
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而現在只是迴光返照
06:29
Opinion意見 polls民意調查 from all over the Muslim穆斯林 world世界 show顯示
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整個穆斯林世界的意見調查顯示
06:31
that there is very little interest利益 among其中 Muslims穆斯林
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穆斯林間對於向
06:36
in a global全球 holy war戰爭 against反對 the West西,
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西方世界發起全球聖戰
06:38
against反對 the far enemy敵人.
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對抗遠方的敵人興趣缺缺
06:41
The supply供應 of young年輕 men男人 willing願意 to fight鬥爭 and die for this cause原因 is dwindling日益減少.
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願意為此戰鬥付出生命的年輕人不斷減少
06:46
The supply供應 of money — just as important重要, more important重要 perhaps也許
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也許更重要的是,資金援助
06:48
the supply供應 of money to this activity活動 is also dwindling日益減少.
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對於聖戰活動的資金援助也正在減少
06:51
The wealthy富裕 fanatics狂熱分子 who were previously先前
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有錢的狂熱份子
06:54
sponsoring贊助 this kind of activity活動 are now less generous慷慨.
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先前資助這種活動的金主,已經不再慷慨了
07:00
What does that mean for us in the West西?
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這對我們西方人又意味著什麼呢?
07:02
Does it mean we can break打破 out the champagne香檳酒,
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這代表我們可以開香檳
07:06
wash our hands of it, disengage解開, sleep睡覺 easy簡單 at night?
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金盆洗手,從中脫身然後高枕無憂了嗎?
07:11
No. Disengagement解脫 is not an option選項,
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不,撤出戰場是行不通的
07:16
because if you let local本地 jihad討伐異教徒 survive生存,
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因為如果你允許區域聖戰存在的話
07:22
it becomes international國際 jihad討伐異教徒.
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總有一天這會變成全球聖戰
07:25
And so there's now a lot of different不同
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所以現在衍生出各種不同的
07:28
violent暴力 jihads聖戰 all over the world世界.
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暴力聖戰,這個世界上到處都是
07:30
In Somalia索馬里, in Mali馬里, in Nigeria尼日利亞,
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在索馬利亞、馬利、奈及利亞
07:33
in Iraq伊拉克, in Afghanistan阿富汗, Pakistan巴基斯坦, there are groups that claim要求
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伊拉克、阿富汗還有巴基斯坦,都有組織聲稱
07:38
to be the inheritors傳承 of the legacy遺產 of Osama烏薩馬 bin箱子 Laden拉登.
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他們繼承了奧薩馬賓拉登的信念
07:43
They use his rhetoric修辭.
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利用他的巧言
07:45
They even use the brand name名稱 he created創建 for his jihad討伐異教徒.
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甚至還借用他為聖戰所命的品牌
07:50
So there is now an al Qaeda凱達 in the Islamic清真 Maghreb馬格里布,
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所以現在伊斯蘭馬格里布(非洲西北部)有基地組織
07:54
there's an al Qaeda凱達 in the Arabian阿拉伯 Peninsula半島,
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阿拉伯半島有基地組織
07:56
there is an al Qaeda凱達 in Mesopotamia美索不達米亞.
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美索不達米亞也有基地組織
07:58
There are other groups -- in Nigeria尼日利亞, Boko博科 Haram閨房,
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類似團體,像在奈及利亞的博科聖地
08:00
in Somalia索馬里, al Shabaab青年黨 -- and they all pay工資 homage尊敬 to Osama烏薩馬 bin箱子 Laden拉登.
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還有索馬利亞的青年黨,都尊崇奧薩馬賓拉登
08:06
But if you look closely密切,
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但如果你仔細觀察
08:08
they're not fighting戰鬥 a global全球 jihad討伐異教徒.
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他們並不是在打全球聖戰
08:11
They're fighting戰鬥 battles戰鬥 over much narrower issues問題.
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他們為更小的議題鬥爭
08:15
Usually平時 it has to do with ethnicity種族 or race種族 or sectarianism宗派主義,
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通常是和道德、種族、宗派
08:20
or it's a power功率 struggle鬥爭.
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或權力鬥爭有關
08:21
More often經常 than not, it's a power功率 struggle鬥爭
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大多數是權力鬥爭
08:23
in one country國家, or even a small region地區 within one country國家.
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在一個國家內,或是國內的一個小區域
08:26
Occasionally偶爾 they will go across橫過 a border邊境,
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有時他們會穿越國界
08:29
from Iraq伊拉克 to Syria敘利亞, from Mali馬里 to Algeria阿爾及利亞,
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從伊拉克到敘利亞、或從馬利到阿爾及利亞
08:36
from Somalia索馬里 to Kenya肯尼亞, but they're not fighting戰鬥
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還有從索馬利亞到肯亞,但他們沒在打
08:37
a global全球 jihad討伐異教徒 against反對 some far enemy敵人.
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全球聖戰,對抗遙遠的敵人
08:42
But that doesn't mean
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不過這並不表示
08:46
that we can relax放鬆.
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我們可以鬆懈下來
08:48
I was in Yemen也門 recently最近, where -- it's the home
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我最近去了葉門,那裡是
08:50
of the last al Qaeda凱達 franchise專營權
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最後一個基地衍生組織的根據地
08:53
that still aspires渴望 to attack攻擊 America美國, attack攻擊 the West西.
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依然渴望攻擊美國和西方
08:58
It's old school學校 al Qaeda凱達.
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這是老派的基地組織
09:00
You may可能 remember記得 these guys.
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你搞不好還記得這些人
09:01
They are the ones那些 who tried試著 to send發送 the underwear內衣 bomber轟炸機 here,
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他們就是試著寄內衣炸彈
09:04
and they were using運用 the Internet互聯網 to try and instigate
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還有用網路嘗試挑撥、煽動
09:07
violence暴力 among其中 American美國 Muslims穆斯林.
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美國穆斯林行使暴力的那群人
09:09
But they have been distracted分心 recently最近.
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但最近他們轉移目標了
09:11
Last year, they took control控制 over a portion一部分 of southern南部的 Yemen也門,
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去年他們掌控了葉門南部的一部分
09:13
and ran it, Taliban-style塔利班式.
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用神學士的方式治理
09:16
And then the Yemeni也門 military軍事 got its act法案 together一起,
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然後葉門軍方展開行動
09:19
and ordinary普通 people rose玫瑰 up against反對 these guys
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平民站出來反抗這些人
09:22
and drove開車 them out, and since以來 then, most of their activities活動,
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驅逐他們,從那以後大部分的活動
09:26
most of their attacks攻擊 have been directed針對 at Yemenis也門人.
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還有大部分的攻擊都是針對葉門當地
09:30
So I think we've我們已經 come to a point now where we can say
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所以我想我們已經到了可以說
09:34
that, just like all politics政治, all jihad討伐異教徒 is local本地.
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就像政治一樣,聖戰地區化
09:37
But that's still not reason原因 for us to disengage解開,
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但我們並不能因此退出
09:42
because we've我們已經 seen看到 that movie電影 before, in Afghanistan阿富汗.
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因為我們看過這段情節,在阿富汗
09:46
When those Mujahideen聖戰者 defeated打敗 the Soviet蘇聯 Union聯盟,
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當聖戰士打敗蘇聯時
09:49
we disengaged脫開.
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我們毫不在意
09:52
And even before the fizz had gone走了 out of our celebratory慶祝 champagne香檳酒,
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甚至當我們的香檳氣泡還沒噴出來時
09:59
the Taliban塔利班 had taken採取 over in Kabul喀布爾,
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神學士已經控制喀布爾了
10:02
and we said, "Local本地 jihad討伐異教徒, not our problem問題."
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我們說,這只是區域聖戰,與我們無關
10:06
And then the Taliban塔利班 gave the keys按鍵 of Kandahar坎大哈
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而當神學士將坎大哈的鑰匙
10:09
to Osama烏薩馬 bin箱子 Laden拉登. He made製作 it our problem問題.
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給了奧薩馬賓拉登時,他成了我們的問題
10:11
Local本地 jihad討伐異教徒, if you ignore忽視 it, becomes global全球 jihad討伐異教徒 again.
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如果你忽略這些區域聖戰,它總有一天會擴大到全球
10:17
The good news新聞 is that it doesn't have to be.
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好消息是這是可以避免的
10:21
We know how to fight鬥爭 it now.
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我們已經知道怎樣對抗
10:23
We have the tools工具. We have the knowhow知識,
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有工具,也有相關知識
10:26
and we can take the lessons教訓 we've我們已經 learned學到了
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更從過去學到教訓
10:28
from the fight鬥爭 against反對 global全球 jihad討伐異教徒, the victory勝利 against反對 global全球 jihad討伐異教徒,
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從對抗全球聖戰,以及對抗的勝利中
10:31
and apply應用 those to local本地 jihad討伐異教徒.
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知道如何在區域聖戰中應用
10:35
What are those lessons教訓? We know who killed殺害 bin箱子 Laden拉登:
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那些教訓是什麼呢?我們知道誰殺了賓拉登
10:40
SEAL密封 Team球隊 Six.
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是海軍特戰開發小組
10:42
Do we know, do we understand理解, who killed殺害 bin箱子 LadenismLadenism?
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但我們明白是誰殺了賓拉登主義嗎?
10:46
Who ended結束 the global全球 jihad討伐異教徒?
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誰終結了全球聖戰?
10:49
There lie謊言 the answers答案 to the solution to local本地 jihad討伐異教徒.
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解決區域聖戰的關鍵就藏在其中
10:53
Who killed殺害 bin箱子 LadenismLadenism? Let's start開始 with bin箱子 Laden拉登 himself他自己.
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誰殺了賓拉登主義?首先得談談賓拉登其人
10:57
He probably大概 thought 9/11 was his greatest最大 achievement成就.
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他大概以為911是他最大的成就
11:00
In reality現實, it was the beginning開始 of the end結束 for him.
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實際上那是他走向敗亡的起點
11:04
He killed殺害 3,000 innocent無辜 people, and that filled填充
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他殺了三千名無辜民眾,這使得
11:07
the Muslim穆斯林 world世界 with horror恐怖 and revulsion厭惡,
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穆斯林世界充滿恐懼與反感
11:11
and what that meant意味著 was that his idea理念 of jihad討伐異教徒
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這就表示他心中的聖戰
11:14
could never become成為 mainstream主流.
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絕不會成為主流
11:16
He condemned譴責 himself他自己 to operating操作 on the lunatic瘋子 fringes條紋
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他咎由自取,因為他驅使他族群中
11:19
of his own擁有 community社區.
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瘋狂的少數份子
11:23
9/11 didn't empower授權 him; it doomed注定 him.
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911並未給他更多力量,反而使他毀滅
11:29
Who killed殺害 bin箱子 LadenismLadenism? Abu阿布 Musab·穆薩布 al-Zarqawi扎卡維 killed殺害 it.
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誰殺了賓拉登主義?Abu Musab al-Zarqawi 殺的
11:33
He was the especially特別 sadistic虐待狂 head of al Qaeda凱達 in Iraq伊拉克
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他是伊拉克基地組織首領中最嗜血的一個
11:37
who sent發送 hundreds數以百計 of suicide自殺 bombers轟炸機 to attack攻擊
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他派出數以百計的自殺炸彈客
11:40
not Americans美國人 but Iraqis伊拉克人. Muslims穆斯林. Sunni遜尼派 as well as Shiites什葉派.
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不只攻擊美國人,也攻擊伊拉克人
不論是遜尼還是什葉信徒
11:46
Any claim要求 that al Qaeda凱達 had to being存在 protectors保護 of Islam伊斯蘭教
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聲稱基地組織是伊斯蘭的保護者
11:50
against反對 the Western西 crusaders十字軍
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對抗西方十字軍的這種說法
11:53
was drowned淹死的 in the blood血液 of Iraqi伊拉克人 Muslims穆斯林.
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都淹沒在伊拉克穆斯林的血中
11:59
Who killed殺害 Osama烏薩馬 bin箱子 Laden拉登? The SEAL密封 Team球隊 Six.
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誰殺了奧薩馬賓拉登?是海軍特戰開發小組
12:02
Who killed殺害 bin箱子 LadenismLadenism? Al Jazeera半島電視台 did,
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誰殺了賓拉登主義?是半島電視台
12:05
Al Jazeera半島電視台 and half a dozen other satellite衛星 news新聞 stations in Arabic阿拉伯,
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半島電視台還有數個在阿拉伯地區的衛星電視台
12:10
because they circumvented繞開 the old, state-owned國有
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他們規避了舊有的國營電視台
12:13
television電視 stations in a lot of these countries國家
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在大多數這些國家中
12:17
which哪一個 were designed設計 to keep information信息 from people.
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國營電視台是設計來阻止人們得到資訊
12:20
Al Jazeera半島電視台 brought information信息 to them, showed顯示 them
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半島電視台將訊息帶給民眾,讓他們看到
12:23
what was being存在 said and doneDONE in the name名稱 of their religion宗教,
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以他們的信仰為名,作出了什麼事情
12:26
exposed裸露 the hypocrisy假意 of Osama烏薩馬 bin箱子 Laden拉登 and al Qaeda凱達,
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揭發奧薩馬賓拉登和基地組織的偽善
12:32
and allowed允許 them, gave them the information信息
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給他們資訊,使得
12:34
that allowed允許 them to come to their own擁有 conclusions結論.
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他們能夠自行判斷
12:38
Who killed殺害 bin箱子 LadenismLadenism? The Arab阿拉伯 Spring彈簧 did,
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誰殺了賓拉登主義?是阿拉伯之春
12:41
because it showed顯示 a way for young年輕 Muslims穆斯林
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因為那讓年輕穆斯林知道,有方法可以
12:45
to bring帶來 about change更改
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改變現狀
12:49
in a manner方式 that Osama烏薩馬 bin箱子 Laden拉登, with his
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以奧薩馬賓拉登有限的想像力
12:50
limited有限 imagination想像力, could never have conceived設想.
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絕對無法想到的方式改變
12:54
Who defeated打敗 the global全球 jihad討伐異教徒? The American美國 military軍事 did,
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誰打敗了全球聖戰?是美國軍隊
12:58
the American美國 soldiers士兵 did, with their allies盟國,
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美國士兵和他們的盟軍
13:00
fighting戰鬥 in faraway遠處 battlefields戰場.
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在遙遠的戰場作戰
13:05
And perhaps也許, a time will come when they get the rightful合法的 credit信用 for it.
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也許假以時日他們將會得到應有的評價
13:10
So all these factors因素, and many許多 more besides除了,
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所以這些因素,還有其他許多
13:13
we don't even fully充分 understand理解 some of them yet然而,
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我們甚至對部份因素還未完全了解
13:16
these came來了 together一起
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當這些因素聚集時
13:19
to defeat打敗 a monstrosity怪物 as big as bin箱子 LadenismLadenism,
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打敗像是賓拉登主義這樣的怪物
13:23
the global全球 jihad討伐異教徒, you needed需要 this group effort功夫.
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還有全球聖戰,需要這樣的集體合作
13:27
Now, not all of these things will work in local本地 jihad討伐異教徒.
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現在,不是所有這些都能用在區域聖戰上
13:29
The American美國 military軍事 is not going to march遊行 into Nigeria尼日利亞
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美國軍隊無法進入奈及利亞
13:32
to take on Boko博科 Haram閨房,
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對抗博科聖地
13:35
and it's unlikely不會 that SEAL密封 Team球隊 Six will rappel登山運動
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海軍特戰開發小組也不大可能垂降到
13:36
into the homes家園 of al Shabaab's青年黨 leaders領導者 and take them out.
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青年黨首領的家中把他們揪出來
13:41
But many許多 of these other factors因素 that were in play
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但其他很多檯面上的因素
13:45
are now even stronger than before. Half the work is already已經 doneDONE.
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已經比從前更有利,大半的工作已經完成
13:50
We don't have to reinvent重塑 the wheel.
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不需要推倒重來
13:53
The notion概念 of violent暴力 jihad討伐異教徒 in which哪一個 more Muslims穆斯林 are killed殺害
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暴力聖戰的概念,也就是讓穆斯林死傷
13:57
than any other kind of people is already已經 thoroughly discredited掃地.
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遠超過其他所有人的,已經失去民心了
14:00
We don't have to go back to that.
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我們不用走回老路
14:04
Satellite衛星 television電視 and the Internet互聯網 are informing通知
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衛星電視和網路提供資訊
14:08
and empowering授權 young年輕 Muslims穆斯林 in exciting扣人心弦 new ways方法.
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用令人興奮的新方法給年輕穆斯林力量
14:13
And the Arab阿拉伯 Spring彈簧 has produced生成 governments政府,
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而阿拉伯之春也產生了政府
14:15
many許多 of them Islamist伊斯蘭 governments政府,
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很多是伊斯蘭政府
14:18
who know that, for their own擁有 self-preservation自保,
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他們明白,如果想保護自己
14:21
they need to take on the extremists極端分子 in their midstsmidsts.
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他們得面對國內的極端份子
14:27
We don't need to persuade說服 them, but we do need to help them,
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我們不用說服他們,但他們需要我們的協助
14:30
because they haven't沒有 really come to this place地點 before.
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因為他們未從走到這一步
14:35
The good news新聞, again, is that a lot of the things they need
247
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又一個好消息是,他們需要的這些事情裡
14:39
we already已經 have, and we are very good at giving:
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很多是我們具備的,也知道如何給予:
14:42
economic經濟 assistance幫助, not just money, but expertise專門知識,
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像經濟援助,不止是金錢,而是專業
14:46
technology技術, knowhow知識,
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技術與知識
14:48
private私人的 investment投資, fair公平 terms條款 of trade貿易,
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私人投資、公平貿易
14:52
medicine醫學, education教育, technical技術 support支持 for training訓練
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醫藥、教育、技術支援訓練
14:57
for their police警察 forces軍隊 to become成為 more effective有效,
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使警方能更有效率
15:00
for their anti-terror反恐 forces軍隊 to become成為 more efficient高效.
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也使他們的反恐武力更有效率
15:05
We've我們已經 got plenty豐富 of these things.
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我們有很多類似這樣的東西
15:06
Some of the other things that they need
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而有些他們所需的
15:08
we're not very good at giving. Maybe nobody沒有人 is.
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我們給不了,也許沒有人能給
15:12
Time, patience忍耐, subtlety明敏, understanding理解 --
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時間、耐心、靈活度以及理解
15:17
these are harder更難 to give.
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這些是難以付出的
15:19
I live生活 in New York紐約 now. Just this week,
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我現在住紐約,就在這週
15:21
posters海報 have gone走了 up in subway地鐵 stations in New York紐約
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紐約地鐵上貼著海報
15:24
that describe描述 jihad討伐異教徒 as savage野蠻人.
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說聖戰是野蠻的
15:30
But in all the many許多 years年份 that I have covered覆蓋 the Middle中間 East,
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但從我在中東採訪的這麼多年來
15:34
I have never been as optimistic樂觀 as I am today今天
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我從未像今日這樣樂觀
15:37
that the gap間隙 between之間 the Muslim穆斯林 world世界 and the West西
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穆斯林世界和西方世界的差距
15:41
is narrowing變窄 fast快速,
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正在快速縮短
15:43
and one of the many許多 reasons原因 for my optimism樂觀
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而讓我感到樂觀的一個因素是
15:45
is that, because I know there are millions百萬,
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我知道有上萬個
15:48
hundreds數以百計 of millions百萬 of people, Muslims穆斯林 like that old imam阿訇
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成千上萬的人,像是突尼西亞老阿訇這樣的穆斯林
15:52
in Tunis突尼斯, who are reclaiming回收 this word
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正在收復聖戰這個字眼
15:59
and restoring恢復 to its original原版的, beautiful美麗 purpose目的.
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並讓它恢復原有的良善意味
16:04
Bin箱子 Laden拉登 is dead. Bin箱子 LadenismLadenism has been defeated打敗.
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賓拉登已死,而他的想法也已落敗
16:07
His definition定義 of jihad討伐異教徒 can now be expunged擦去.
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抹殺他的聖戰定義
16:11
To that jihad討伐異教徒 we can say, "Goodbye再見. Good riddance甩掉包袱."
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我們可以對那個聖戰說:再見,總算擺脫你了
16:16
To the real真實 jihad討伐異教徒 we can say, "Welcome歡迎 back. Good luck運氣."
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而對真正的聖戰說:歡迎回來,祝您好運
16:22
Thank you. (Applause掌聲)
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謝謝
Translated by Crystal Tu
Reviewed by Geoff Chen

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ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Bobby Ghosh - Editor
Bobby Ghosh is the Managing Editor at Quartz.

Why you should listen

Bobby Ghosh was the longest serving print journalist in Iraq until he left in 2007 to become Time's World Editor. Formerly an editor-at-large for Time, his work encompasses his broad interests, from restaurant reviews to an extended interview with Egyptian president Mohammad Morsi for his latest cover story. He recently went on patrol in Yemen to view what many hope is the end of the transnational al-Qaeda movement. Ghosh is now the Managing Editor of Quartz.

To explore more of the ideas in Ghosh's talk, read his recent essay for Time Worldwide: "11 Years After 9/11, the Holy World War Is Over and All Jihad is Local" >>

 
More profile about the speaker
Bobby Ghosh | Speaker | TED.com