TEDxPSU
Jonathan Marks: In praise of conflict
喬納森．馬克斯: 政府應該與企業鬥爭，而不是與之合謀
Filmed:
Readability: 4.8
1,369,835 views
衝突是不好的，妥協、共識和合作是好的──我們被這樣教導著。喬納森．馬克斯身兼律師和生物倫理學家，對這個傳統觀點產生了質疑。他揭露當政府與工業界合夥的時候，如何對公共衛生、人權和環境造成傷害。這是一個很重要且及時的警告：「公共利益」和「共同點」是不同的一回事。
Jonathan Marks - Bioethicist, lawyer
Jonathan Marks works at the intersections of ethics, law and policy -- writing and speaking about torture, obesity, fracking, health care and other pressing issues of our time. Full bio
Jonathan Marks works at the intersections of ethics, law and policy -- writing and speaking about torture, obesity, fracking, health care and other pressing issues of our time. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
Twenty years ago,
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20 年前，
00:14
when I was a barrister
and human rights lawyer
and human rights lawyer
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我擔任訟務律師和人權律師時，
00:17
in full-time legal practice in London,
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在倫敦從事全職的法律實務，
00:20
and the highest court in the land
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英國最高法院依然在這裡開庭；
00:22
still convened, some would say
by an accident of history,
by an accident of history,
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有人說這是因為歷史上的一個意外；
00:26
in this building here,
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就在這一棟建築裡，
00:28
I met a young man
who had just quit his job
who had just quit his job
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我遇見了一個男生，
他剛從英國外交部辭去工作。
00:31
in the British Foreign Office.
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00:33
When I asked him, "Why did you leave,"
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我問他：「為什麼你要離開？」
00:36
he told me this story.
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他告訴我下面的故事。
00:38
He had gone to his boss
one morning and said,
one morning and said,
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有一天早上，他問他的上司說：
00:41
"Let's do something
about human rights abuses in China."
about human rights abuses in China."
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「我們可以為中國
人權問題做點事嗎？」
人權問題做點事嗎？」
00:46
And his boss had replied,
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他的上司回答他：
00:48
"We can't do anything
about human rights abuses in China
about human rights abuses in China
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「我們無法為中國
人權問題做任何事，
人權問題做任何事，
00:50
because we have
trade relations with China."
trade relations with China."
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因為我們跟中國
有貿易的往來關係。」
有貿易的往來關係。」
00:54
So my friend went away
with his tail between his legs,
with his tail between his legs,
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所以我的朋友悻悻地離開，
00:57
and six months later,
he returned again to his boss,
he returned again to his boss,
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六個月以後他再去見他的上司，
01:01
and he said this time,
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這次他這麼說：
01:02
"Let's do something
about human rights in Burma,"
about human rights in Burma,"
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「讓我們為緬甸 (Burma)
人權問題做點事好嗎？」
人權問題做點事好嗎？」
01:06
as it was then called.
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那時還是這麼稱呼這個國家。
（現稱 Myanmar）
（現稱 Myanmar）
01:08
His boss once again paused
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他的上司再次停下來，然後說：
01:10
and said, "Oh, but we can't
do anything about human rights in Burma
do anything about human rights in Burma
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「哦，可是我們沒辦法
為緬甸人權問題做任何事啊，
為緬甸人權問題做任何事啊，
01:14
because we don't have
any trade relations with Burma."
any trade relations with Burma."
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因為我們跟緬甸沒有
半點貿易關係。」
半點貿易關係。」
01:18
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
01:19
This was the moment
he knew he had to leave.
he knew he had to leave.
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當下那一刻，
他了解他必須辭去工作了。
他了解他必須辭去工作了。
01:22
It wasn't just the hypocrisy
that got to him.
that got to him.
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那不只是那種
假仁假義的感覺襲上他，
假仁假義的感覺襲上他，
01:25
It was the unwillingness of his government
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而是他對於這個政府，
不願去與其他政府發生「衝突」，
不願去與其他政府發生「衝突」，
01:28
to engage in conflict
with other governments,
with other governments,
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01:31
in tense discussions,
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不願意去進行密切的商談，
才使他死了心。
才使他死了心。
01:32
all the while, innocent people
were being harmed.
were being harmed.
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因為與此同時，
無辜的人正在受到傷害。
無辜的人正在受到傷害。
01:37
We are constantly told
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我們經常被告知：
01:40
that conflict is bad
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「與人發生衝突是不好的，
01:42
that compromise is good;
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妥協才是好的；」
01:45
that conflict is bad
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「衝突是壞的，
01:47
but consensus is good;
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達成共識是好的；」
01:50
that conflict is bad
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「衝突是不對的，
01:52
and collaboration is good.
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合作才是好的。」
01:56
But in my view,
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但是以我的觀點來看，
01:57
that's far too simple
a vision of the world.
a vision of the world.
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對與這個世界而言，
這些話顯得太單純了。
這些話顯得太單純了。
01:59
We cannot know
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我們無從知道，
02:01
whether conflict is bad
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衝突是否不好，
02:03
unless we know who is fighting,
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除非我們了解是誰在奮鬥，
02:06
why they are fighting
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為什麼他們要抗爭，
02:08
and how they are fighting.
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和他們如何抗戰。
02:10
And compromises can be thoroughly rotten
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妥協可能會徹底腐敗，
02:14
if they harm people
who are not at the table,
who are not at the table,
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假如它們傷害到
沒有在談判桌上的人，
沒有在談判桌上的人，
02:17
people who are vulnerable, disempowered,
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那些很脆弱和被剝奪權利的人；
那些我們有義務去保護的人。
02:20
people whom we have
an obligation to protect.
an obligation to protect.
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02:24
Now, you might be
somewhat skeptical of a lawyer
somewhat skeptical of a lawyer
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現在你可能會對眼前
這位律師感到懷疑：
這位律師感到懷疑：
02:27
arguing about the benefits of conflict
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他在這裡談論衝突的好處，
02:30
and creating problems for compromise,
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向妥協發難，
02:33
but I did also qualify as a mediator,
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但是我的資格的確
足夠作為一個和事佬，
足夠作為一個和事佬，
02:35
and these days, I spend my time
giving talks about ethics for free.
giving talks about ethics for free.
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最近我花了很多時間免費演講，
談論自由和倫理道德的關係。
談論自由和倫理道德的關係。
02:39
So as my bank manager likes to remind me,
I'm downwardly mobile.
I'm downwardly mobile.
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所以我的銀行經理提醒我，
說我是在向下沉淪。
說我是在向下沉淪。
（笑聲）
02:44
But if you accept my argument,
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但是如果你接受我的論點，
02:47
it should change not just the way
we lead our personal lives,
we lead our personal lives,
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它不但可以改變
我們過生活的方式──
我們過生活的方式──
02:50
which I wish to put
to one side for the moment,
to one side for the moment,
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這個話題我暫時先把它放到一旁；
02:53
but it will change the way
we think about major problems
we think about major problems
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也可以改變我們對於公衛和環境等
主要問題的思考方式。
主要問題的思考方式。
02:57
of public health and the environment.
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03:01
Let me explain.
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讓我解釋一下。
03:04
Every middle schooler
in the United States,
in the United States,
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美國的每一位國中生，
03:06
my 12-year-old daughter included,
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包括我 12 歲的女兒在內，
03:09
learns that there are
three branches of government,
three branches of government,
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都知道政府有三個分支，
03:13
the legislative, the executive
and the judicial branch.
and the judicial branch.
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它們分別是立法部門、
行政部門和司法單位。
行政部門和司法單位。
03:17
James Madison wrote,
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詹姆斯．麥迪遜在他的書中寫到：
03:19
"If there is any principle
more sacred in our Constitution,
more sacred in our Constitution,
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「在我們的憲法中，
應該說是在任何自由的憲法中，
應該說是在任何自由的憲法中，
03:24
and indeed in any free constitution,
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如果有什麼原則，
比起其他原則更為神聖的話；
比起其他原則更為神聖的話；
03:27
than any other,
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03:28
it is that which separates
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就是那種將立法、行政、司法權，
個別分開獨立出來的原則。」
個別分開獨立出來的原則。」
03:31
the legislative, the executive
and the judicial powers."
and the judicial powers."
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03:36
Now, the framers were not just concerned
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憲法制訂者不只是關注
權力的集中和實行而已。
權力的集中和實行而已。
03:39
about the concentration
and exercise of power.
and exercise of power.
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03:43
They also understood
the perils of influence.
the perils of influence.
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他們也理解「影響力」的危險。
03:48
Judges cannot determine
the constitutionality of laws
the constitutionality of laws
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法官不可以決定法律本身是否合憲，
假使法官本身參與制訂法律的話；
03:53
if they participate in making those laws,
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03:57
nor can they hold the other branches
of government accountable
of government accountable
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他們也無法對政府
其他分支機構進行追究，
其他分支機構進行追究，
04:01
if they collaborate with them
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如果他們之間有合作關係，
04:03
or enter into close
relationships with them.
relationships with them.
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或是與他們建立密切的關係。
04:07
The Constitution is,
as one famous scholar put it,
as one famous scholar put it,
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「憲法」，正如一位
著名學者所說的，
著名學者所說的，
04:11
"an invitation to struggle."
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「是一封鬥爭的邀請函。」
04:14
And we the people are served
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而老百姓是被影響的對象，
04:17
when those branches do, indeed,
struggle with each other.
struggle with each other.
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假如那些政府機構
彼此之間互相對抗的話。
彼此之間互相對抗的話。
04:23
Now, we recognize
the importance of struggle
the importance of struggle
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我們理解鬥爭的重要性，
不僅是在我們政府分支的
公眾部門而已，
公眾部門而已，
04:26
not just in the public sector
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04:29
between our branches of government.
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04:32
We also know it too in the private sector,
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我們也知道在私人公司的部門之間，
04:35
in relationships among corporations.
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也存在同樣問題。
04:39
Let's imagine that two American airlines
get together and agree
get together and agree
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讓我們想像一下，
如果兩家美國航空公司集合在一起，
彼此同意不要把經濟艙的機票
價格降到每張 250 美元以下，
價格降到每張 250 美元以下，
04:44
that they will not drop the price
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04:46
of their economy class airfares
below 250 dollars a ticket.
below 250 dollars a ticket.
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04:51
That is collaboration,
some would say collusion,
some would say collusion,
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那就是「合作」，
有人把它稱之為「共謀」，
有人把它稱之為「共謀」，
04:55
not competition,
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而不是競爭，
04:56
and we the people are harmed
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那麼遭殃的是大家，
04:59
because we pay more for our tickets.
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因為我們要付出
更高的價格來買機票。
更高的價格來買機票。
05:02
Imagine similarly
two airlines were to say,
two airlines were to say,
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假想一下，同樣的
兩家航空公司如果這樣說：
兩家航空公司如果這樣說：
05:05
"Look, Airline A, we'll take
the route from LA to Chicago,"
the route from LA to Chicago,"
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「航空公司甲，我們想飛
洛杉磯到芝加哥的航線。」
洛杉磯到芝加哥的航線。」
05:10
and Airline B says, "We'll take
the route from Chicago to DC,
the route from Chicago to DC,
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然後航空公司乙說：
「我們想飛芝加哥
到華盛頓的這條航線。
到華盛頓的這條航線。
05:13
and we won't compete."
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那麼我們就不用互相競爭了。」
05:14
Once again, that's collaboration
or collusion instead of competition,
or collusion instead of competition,
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這同樣也是一種合作或共謀，
而不是競爭，
而不是競爭，
05:19
and we the people are harmed.
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受到傷害的還是大家。
05:23
So we understand
the importance of struggle
the importance of struggle
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就政府公眾部門之間的關係而論，
我們知道抗爭的重要性。
我們知道抗爭的重要性。
05:29
when it comes to relationships
between branches of government,
between branches of government,
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05:35
the public sector.
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05:36
We also understand
the importance of conflict
the importance of conflict
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就私人公司各單位之間的關係而論，
我們也知道衝突的重要性。
我們也知道衝突的重要性。
05:40
when it comes to relationships
among corporations,
among corporations,
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05:44
the private sector.
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05:46
But where we have forgotten it
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但是我們忽略的是，
05:48
is in the relationships
between the public and the private.
between the public and the private.
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公家單位與私營企業之間的關係。
05:53
And governments all over the world
are collaborating with industry
are collaborating with industry
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全世界的政府都在與工業界合作，
05:57
to solve problems of public health
and the environment,
and the environment,
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解決公共衛生和環境的問題，
06:00
often collaborating
with the very corporations
with the very corporations
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通常合作的對象是那些製造出
更多問題，或是使問題惡化的公司。
更多問題，或是使問題惡化的公司。
06:03
that are creating or exacerbating
the problems they are trying to solve.
the problems they are trying to solve.
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06:11
We are told that these relationships
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我們被告知這些關係
是一個雙贏的關係。
是一個雙贏的關係。
06:14
are a win-win.
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06:17
But what if someone is losing out?
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但是如果一方有利益損失怎麼辦呢？
06:22
Let me give you some examples.
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讓我給你一些案例。
06:25
A United Nations agency
decided to address a serious problem:
decided to address a serious problem:
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聯合國的一個機構，
決定處理一個嚴峻的問題：
決定處理一個嚴峻的問題：
06:29
poor sanitation in schools in rural India.
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印度鄉下學校極差的衛生狀況。
06:34
They did so not just in collaboration
with national and local governments
with national and local governments
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他們不僅與國家和當地政府合作，
06:38
but also with a television company
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也和一家電視公司合作，
06:40
and with a major
multinational soda company.
multinational soda company.
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還有一家跨國汽水公司合作，
06:45
In exchange for less
than one million dollars,
than one million dollars,
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以交換低於 100 萬美元的經費，
06:48
that corporation received the benefits
of a months-long promotional campaign
of a months-long promotional campaign
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讓那家公司獲得一個月的促銷活動，
06:53
including a 12-hour telethon
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包含一個持續 12 個小時的
電視募款活動，
電視募款活動，
06:55
all using the company's logo
and color scheme.
and color scheme.
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全部使用該公司的商標和配色設計。
07:00
This was an arrangement
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從該公司的角度來看，
07:02
which was totally understandable
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這種安排是完全可以理解的。
07:05
from the corporation's point of view.
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07:07
It enhances the reputation of the company
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它強化了公司的名譽，
07:09
and it creates brand loyalty
for its products.
for its products.
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也創造了他們產品的品牌忠誠度。
07:13
But in my view,
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但是從我的眼光來看，
07:15
this is profoundly problematic
for the intergovernmental agency,
for the intergovernmental agency,
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這對於此跨政府的機構
會造成深遠的問題，
會造成深遠的問題，
07:18
an agency that has a mission
to promote sustainable living.
to promote sustainable living.
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這個機構的使命是提倡永續生活。
07:23
By increasing consumption
of sugar-sweetened beverages
of sugar-sweetened beverages
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透過增加含糖飲料的銷售量，
07:27
made from scarce local water supplies
and drunk out of plastic bottles
and drunk out of plastic bottles
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消耗當地已經匱乏的水資源，
來製造塑膠瓶裝飲料，
來製造塑膠瓶裝飲料，
07:31
in a country that is already
grappling with obesity,
grappling with obesity,
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在一個已經陷入肥胖症困境的國家，
07:34
this is neither sustainable
from a public health
from a public health
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站在公共衛生的立場來看，
這既不合乎永續性，
也不合乎環保的觀點。
也不合乎環保的觀點。
07:37
nor an environmental point of view.
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07:40
And in order to solve
one public health problem,
one public health problem,
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為了解決一個公共衛生問題，
07:44
the agency is sowing the seeds
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這個機構埋下另一個壞的種子。
07:46
of another.
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07:49
This is just one example
of dozens I discovered
of dozens I discovered
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這只是我在書中搜尋
政府與工業關係的時候，
政府與工業關係的時候，
07:53
in researching a book on the relationships
between government and industry.
between government and industry.
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很多例子的其中一個。
07:58
I could also have told you
about the initiatives in parks
about the initiatives in parks
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我還可以告訴你另外一個提案，
要在倫敦和整個英國的
公園倡導運動，
公園倡導運動，
08:02
in London and throughout Britain,
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08:04
involving the same company,
promoting exercise,
promoting exercise,
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也牽涉到同一家公司，
08:07
or indeed of the British government
creating voluntary pledges
creating voluntary pledges
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或實際上，是由英國政府出面，
主動向工業界承諾並建立合作關係，
08:12
in partnership with industry
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08:14
instead of regulating industry.
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而不是向工業界提出規範。
08:17
These collaborations or partnerships
have become the paradigm in public health,
have become the paradigm in public health,
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這些合作或合夥關係，
已經成為公共健康的範例，
已經成為公共健康的範例，
08:23
and once again, they make sense
from the point of view of industry.
from the point of view of industry.
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而再一次，
以工業界的角度來看，
他們讓此種作法合理化，
他們讓此種作法合理化，
08:27
It allows them to frame
public health problems and their solutions
public health problems and their solutions
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容許他們框架
公共衛生問題及解決方法，
公共衛生問題及解決方法，
08:30
in ways that are least threatening to,
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採用對他們最少威脅的手法，
08:32
most consonant with
their commercial interests.
their commercial interests.
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而且大部分都與他們的
商業利益一致。
商業利益一致。
08:35
So obesity becomes a problem
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所以肥胖的困擾，
08:38
of individual decision-making,
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成為個人抉擇的問題，
08:42
of personal behavior,
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或個人的行為問題，
08:44
personal responsibility
and lack of physical activity.
and lack of physical activity.
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是個人的責任還有缺乏運動的問題。
08:48
It is not a problem,
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照這樣的框架來看，這根本不是
08:50
when framed this way,
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牽涉大企業的跨國食品系統問題。
08:51
of a multinational food system
involving major corporations.
involving major corporations.
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08:55
And again, I don't blame industry.
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再說一次，我並不怪罪工業界。
08:56
Industry naturally engages
in strategies of influence
in strategies of influence
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工業界很自然地
會運用策略發揮影響力，
會運用策略發揮影響力，
09:00
to promote its commercial interests.
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為了謀求商業利益而進行促銷活動。
09:03
But governments have a responsibility
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但是政府有責任，
09:06
to develop counterstrategies
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研究對策，
09:08
to protect us
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來保護我們，
09:10
and the common good.
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和我們的公共利益。
（字幕：公共利益）
09:14
The mistake that governments are making
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政府其實是在製造錯誤，
當他們用這種方式
與工業界協調的時候，
與工業界協調的時候，
09:18
when they collaborate in this way
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09:21
with industry
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錯在於：政府把
兩件事情混淆在一起。
兩件事情混淆在一起。
09:22
is that they conflate
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09:25
the common good
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那就是「共同點」與「公共利益。」
09:26
with common ground.
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09:29
When you collaborate with industry,
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當你跟工業界合作的時候，
你必須先把那些促進公共利益的事情，
09:31
you necessarily put off the table
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先從談判桌上移走，
09:34
things that might promote the common good
to which industry will not agree.
to which industry will not agree.
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因為那些事情工業界可能不會接受。
他們不會同意加強對他們的約束，
09:38
Industry will not agree
to increased regulation
to increased regulation
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09:41
unless it believes this will
stave off even more regulation
stave off even more regulation
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除非他們相信這種合作，
可以讓他們避開更多的管制，
可以讓他們避開更多的管制，
09:45
or perhaps knock some competitors
out of the market.
out of the market.
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或讓他們的競爭對手
被踢出市場之外。
被踢出市場之外。
09:49
Nor can companies agree
to do certain things,
to do certain things,
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公司也不見得願意去做某一些事，
09:52
for example raise the prices
of their unhealthy products,
of their unhealthy products,
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例如提高他們不健康產品的售價，
09:55
because that would violate
competition law,
competition law,
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因為那樣會違反「公平交易法」，
那是我們已經建立完成的。
09:57
as we've established.
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10:00
So our governments should not confound
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所以我們的政府，
不應該將公共利益
和共同點混淆在一起，
和共同點混淆在一起，
10:03
the common good and common ground,
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特別是當共同點代表的是
與工業界達成的協議的時候。
與工業界達成的協議的時候。
10:06
especially when common ground
means reaching agreement with industry.
means reaching agreement with industry.
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我想再給你一個例子，
10:12
I want to give you another example,
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我們已經講過備受矚目的合作計畫，
10:14
moving from high-profile collaboration
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再來是有關檯面下合作的案例；
10:16
to something that is below ground
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10:18
both literally and figuratively:
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從字面上或用比喻的方式來看。
10:22
the hydraulic fracturing of natural gas.
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那就是水力壓裂法開採天然氣。
10:25
Imagine that you purchase a plot of land
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假想一下你購買了一塊土地，
10:29
not knowing the mineral rights
have been sold.
have been sold.
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但是不知道採礦權已經被賣掉了，
10:31
This is before the fracking boom.
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這是水力壓裂法榮景之前發生的事。
10:34
You build your dream home on that plot,
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你在你的產業上
蓋了一棟夢想的房子，
蓋了一棟夢想的房子，
10:37
and shortly afterwards,
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蓋好之後沒多久，
10:39
you discover that a gas company
is building a well pad on your land.
is building a well pad on your land.
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你發現天然氣公司
在你的土地上興建鑽井平台，
在你的土地上興建鑽井平台，
10:45
That was the plight
of the Hallowich family.
of the Hallowich family.
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這其實正是哈洛維奇家族
以前碰到的困境。
以前碰到的困境。
10:49
Within a very short period of time,
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在非常短的一段時間內，
10:52
they began to complain of headaches,
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他們開始抱怨頭痛、
喉嚨痛、眼睛癢，
10:55
of sore throats, of itchy eyes,
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10:58
in addition to the interference
of the noise, vibration
of the noise, vibration
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除此之外還有噪音震動的干擾，
11:01
and the bright lights
from the flaring of natural gas.
from the flaring of natural gas.
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和天然氣燃燒時發出的亮光等。
11:04
They were very vocal in their criticisms,
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他們激烈地批評這些事，
11:07
and then they fell silent.
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然後他們突然噤聲了。
多虧匹茲堡郵報，
才有上面的那張圖像，
才有上面的那張圖像，
11:10
And thanks to the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette,
where this image appeared,
where this image appeared,
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加上另一家報社，
我們才瞭解他們不再發聲的原因，
我們才瞭解他們不再發聲的原因，
11:13
and one other newspaper,
we discovered why they fell silent.
we discovered why they fell silent.
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這家報社跑到法院去問：
「哈洛維奇家族到底如何了？」
「哈洛維奇家族到底如何了？」
11:16
The newspapers went to the court and said,
"What happened to the Hallowiches?"
"What happened to the Hallowiches?"
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結果發現哈洛維奇家族，
11:20
And it turned out the Hallowiches
had made a secret settlement
had made a secret settlement
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已經私下與天然氣業者
達成秘密協議，
達成秘密協議，
11:23
with the gas operators, and it was
a take-it-or-leave-it settlement.
a take-it-or-leave-it settlement.
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而且那是一種
「不要就拉倒」的協議。
「不要就拉倒」的協議。
11:27
The gas company said,
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天然氣公司說，
你可以獲得六位數字的補償金額，
11:28
you can have a six-figure sum
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11:31
to move elsewhere
and start your lives again,
and start your lives again,
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搬到其他地方去重新展開你的生活，
11:33
but in return
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但代價是：你必須答應我們，
11:34
you must promise not to speak
of your experience with our company,
of your experience with our company,
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不可以將我們公司的事說出去，
11:38
not to speak of your
experience with fracking,
experience with fracking,
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也不可以談論
你對於水力壓裂法的體驗，
你對於水力壓裂法的體驗，
11:41
not to speak about the health consequences
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不可以談到你的健康受損情況，
這個或許早已在健康檢查中就發現了。
11:45
that might have been revealed
by a medical examination.
by a medical examination.
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11:49
Now, I do not blame
the Hallowiches for accepting
the Hallowiches for accepting
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其實我不怪哈洛維奇接受那種
「不要就拉倒」的協議，
「不要就拉倒」的協議，
11:52
a take-it-or-leave-it settlement
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並且搬到其他地方重新展開生活。
11:55
and starting their lives elsewhere.
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11:57
And one can understand
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因為大家都能夠理解，
為什麼那家公司希望禁止
尋求賠償的抱怨者發出聲音。
尋求賠償的抱怨者發出聲音。
11:58
why the company would wish
to silence a squeaky wheel.
to silence a squeaky wheel.
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12:01
What I want to point the finger at
is the legal and regulatory system,
is the legal and regulatory system,
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我想指責的對象是法律和管理系統，
12:05
a system in which there are
networks of agreements
networks of agreements
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一個隱藏了合作協議
在內的網路系統，
在內的網路系統，
12:08
just like this one
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就像這件事一樣，
12:10
which serve to silence people
and seal off data points
and seal off data points
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用來封住人們的嘴巴，
把資料點封鎖住，
把資料點封鎖住，
12:14
from public health experts
and epidemiologists,
and epidemiologists,
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將公共健康專家
和流行病學家排除在外。
和流行病學家排除在外。
12:17
a system in which regulators
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作為一個系統內的管理者，
12:18
will even refrain
from issuing a violation notice
from issuing a violation notice
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竟敢在污染事件中，
逃避開出違規事件通知單，
逃避開出違規事件通知單，
12:22
in the event of pollution
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12:23
if the landowner and the gas company
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只要土地所有人和天然氣業者之間，
私下達成協議就好。
私下達成協議就好。
12:25
agree to settle.
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從公共衛生的角度來看，
這種系統不只是壞的，
這種系統不只是壞的，
12:27
This is a system which isn't just
bad from a public health point of view;
bad from a public health point of view;
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12:31
it exposes hazards to local families
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它更讓當地居民暴露在風險之中，
12:34
who remain in the dark.
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任令他們躲在黑暗之處。
12:39
Now, I have given you two examples
not because they are isolated examples.
not because they are isolated examples.
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現在我已經提出了兩個例子，
不是因爲他們是被孤立的個案。
而是因為它們是
系統性問題的一個範例。
系統性問題的一個範例。
12:43
They are examples of a systemic problem.
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我可以分享一些反例，
12:46
I could share some counterexamples,
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12:48
the case for example
of the public official
of the public official
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例如某位公家官員的案件，
12:51
who sues the pharmaceutical company
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他以隱瞞真相的理由，
控告製藥公司，
控告製藥公司，
12:54
for concealing the fact
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12:56
that its antidepressant increases
suicidal thoughts in adolescents.
suicidal thoughts in adolescents.
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因為他們的抗憂鬱藥劑，
會增加青少年自殺的念頭。
13:03
I can tell you about the regulator
who went after the food company
who went after the food company
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我可以告訴你們某位管理官員，
追逐在食品服務公司後面，
13:06
for exaggerating the purported
health benefits of its yogurt.
health benefits of its yogurt.
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對其酸奶製品，誇大聲稱
對健康有益所做的事。
對健康有益所做的事。
13:10
And I can tell you about the legislator
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我也可以告訴你們某位立法人員，
13:14
who despite heavy lobbying
directed at both sides of the aisle
directed at both sides of the aisle
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不理會那些站在
走廊兩旁的眾多說客，
走廊兩旁的眾多說客，
他還是不為所動地在推動環保。
13:18
pushes for environmental protections.
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這些都是獨立的個案，
13:23
These are isolated examples,
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13:24
but they are beacons of light
in the darkness,
in the darkness,
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但是他們都是黑夜裡燈塔中的光明，
而他們可以為我們指引道路。
13:29
and they can show us the way.
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13:34
I began by suggesting that sometimes
we need to engage in conflict.
we need to engage in conflict.
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我演講開始時提出
我們有時需要參與鬥爭，
我們有時需要參與鬥爭，
政府應該與公司爭執、
13:39
Governments should tussle with,
253
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13:43
struggle with, at times engage
in direct conflict with corporations.
in direct conflict with corporations.
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鬥爭、時時直接與公司衝突，
13:49
This is not because governments
are inherently good
are inherently good
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這不是因為政府本質上是好的，
13:54
and corporations are inherently evil.
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而公司本質上是邪惡的。
13:56
Each is capable of good or ill.
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彼此都可以作好事或壞事。
但公司為了創造利潤，
進行促銷是可理解的行為，
進行促銷是可理解的行為，
14:01
But corporations understandably
act to promote their commercial interests,
act to promote their commercial interests,
258
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14:07
and they do so either sometimes
undermining or promoting the common good.
undermining or promoting the common good.
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但他們那樣做，可能削弱、
或提升公共利益。
或提升公共利益。
14:13
But it is the responsibility
of governments
of governments
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但是那絕對是政府的責任
來保護和提升公共利益。
來保護和提升公共利益。
14:17
to protect and promote the common good.
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14:20
And we should insist
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我們應該堅持要他們為此而奮鬥。
14:23
that they fight to do so.
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14:26
This is because governments
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這是因為「政府」
是公共健康的守護者。
是公共健康的守護者。
14:29
are the guardians
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14:31
of public health;
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14:33
governments are the guardians
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政府是環境的守護者；
14:36
of the environment;
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14:38
and it is governments
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而且政府也是必不可缺的一個要素，
14:40
that are guardians
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14:41
of these essential parts
of our common good.
of our common good.
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守護我們的公共利益。
14:47
Thank you.
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謝謝你們。
14:48
(Applause)
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（掌聲）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Jonathan Marks - Bioethicist, lawyerJonathan Marks works at the intersections of ethics, law and policy -- writing and speaking about torture, obesity, fracking, health care and other pressing issues of our time.
Why you should listen
After studying law at Oxford University, Jonathan Marks qualified as a barrister and mediator, and he spent a decade in full-time practice in London. He became an expert on human rights, working on cases about torture (the Pinochet case), the protection of privacy and personal data, and the regulation of food, drugs and the environment.
The Greenwall Fellowship in Bioethics and Health Policy at Johns Hopkins and Georgetown Universities led to his current appointment as Director of the Bioethics Program at Penn State University, where he is also affiliated with the Rock Ethics Institute, Penn State Law and the School of International Affairs. He remains an academic member of Matrix, a London barristers' chambers with offices in Geneva.
Marks is passionate about teaching and lecturing, as his TED talk, and an article in the New York Times both attest. The talk offers a preview of his book manuscript, The Perils of Partnership. It also draws on research he conducted during his six-year affiliation with the Edmond J. Safra Center for Ethics at Harvard and during residencies at the Hastings Center and at the Brocher Foundation in Geneva.
Learn more about Marks's ideas from several articles, essays, and op-eds here.
Jonathan Marks | Speaker | TED.com