TEDIndia 2009
Ryan Lobo: Photographing the hidden story
瑞安羅伯(Ryan Lobo)談論拍攝不為人知的故事
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瑞安羅伯(Ryan Lobo)曾周遊世界各國，透過他所拍攝的照片，告訴我們不平凡的人與事。在這令人印象深刻的演講中，他以同理心重塑那些具有爭議的主題，讓我們看到賴比瑞亞戰犯的痛苦、聯合國女性維和人員沈靜的力量，和印度德里未獲公平評價消防員的毅力。
Ryan Lobo - Photographer
As a photographer and filmmaker, Ryan Lobo uses his exquisite lens to capture humanity and nature at their most open and vulnerable moments. Full bio
As a photographer and filmmaker, Ryan Lobo uses his exquisite lens to capture humanity and nature at their most open and vulnerable moments. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:15
My name is Ryan Lobo,
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我的名字是瑞安羅伯，
00:17
and I've been involved in the documentary
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我在過去的10年之中，在世界各地
00:19
filmmaking business all over the world for the last 10 years.
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參與製作了不少的紀錄片。
00:23
During the process of making these films
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在這些紀錄片的拍攝過程中，
00:25
I found myself taking photographs,
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我發現我自己會在一旁拍攝照片，
00:28
often much to the annoyance of the video cameramen.
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而這往往惹惱了紀錄片的攝影師，
00:31
I found this photography of mine almost compulsive.
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因為我的這種攝影習慣幾乎已經變成了一種強迫行為。
00:34
And at the end of a shoot, I would sometimes feel that
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每次拍完紀錄片，我都會覺得
00:37
I had photographs that told a better story
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我自己拍的照片，比精彩的紀錄片
00:40
than a sometimes-sensational documentary.
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來得更具故事性。
00:44
I felt, when I had my photographs,
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我覺得，我所拍攝的照片，
00:46
that I was holding on to something true,
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代表著某種真相，
00:48
regardless of agendas or politics.
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不管原本要拍的議題或政策是什麼。
00:51
In 2007, I traveled to three war zones.
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在2007年，我到過三個戰區。
00:55
I traveled to Iraq, Afghanistan and Liberia.
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我去了伊拉克，阿富汗和賴比瑞亞。
00:58
And over there I experienced
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在那裡，我很真實的接觸到
01:00
other people's suffering, up close and personal,
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其他人所經歷的苦難，
01:03
immersed myself in some rather intense and emotional stories,
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讓我沉浸在一些相當濃烈的情感故事當中，
01:07
and at times I experienced great fear for my own life.
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而有時候，我也會為自己的生命安危感到害怕。
01:12
As always, I would return to Bangalore,
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一如既往，我回到班加羅爾(Bangalore)，
01:14
and often to animated discussions at friend's homes,
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並且像以往一樣在朋友的家裡，
01:17
where we would discuss various issues
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參與討論各種話題。
01:19
while they complained bitterly about the new pub timings,
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而當他們都在苦苦抱怨新酒吧的營業時間時，
01:22
where a drink often cost more than what they'd paid
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我發現這些酒吧的飲料售價往往比
01:24
their 14-year-old maid.
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他們14歲的女傭工資來得更高。
01:26
I would feel very isolated during these discussions.
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在這些討論當中，我覺得非常孤立，
01:30
But at the same time, I questioned myself
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但同時我也問我自己，
01:33
and my own integrity and purpose in storytelling.
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究竟為什麼要分享這些故事，背後的精神是否夠正直。
01:37
And I decided that I had compromised,
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因此，我做出讓步，
01:41
just like my friends in those discussions,
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就像我這些朋友在討論的事情一樣，
01:44
where we told stories
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我們講出來的故事，
01:47
in contexts we made excuses for,
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是要為某些事情找藉口，
01:50
rather than taking responsibility for.
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而不是要去承擔甚麼責任。
01:54
I won't go into details about what led to a decision I made,
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我不會詳細說明是什麼讓我做出這個決定，
02:01
but let's just say it involved alcohol, cigarettes,
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就把原因想成是因為有酒精、香煙、
02:03
other substances and a woman.
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其他東西和一個女人涉入吧。
02:06
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
02:07
I basically decided that it was I,
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基本上我認為是我們自己，
02:09
not the camera or the network,
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而不是攝影機、網路，
02:11
or anything that lay outside myself,
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或是任何外在的東西，
02:14
that was the only instrument in storytelling
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我們自己才是去述說故事的
02:16
truly worth tuning.
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最佳媒介。
02:19
In my life, when I tried to achieve things
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在我的生命之中，當我試著去追求
02:22
like success or recognition, they eluded me.
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成功和名利時，我無法得到它們，
02:25
Paradoxically, when I let go of these objectives,
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相反地，當我放下這些目標，
02:28
and worked from a place of compassion and purpose,
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抱持同情和堅定的做事態度，
02:31
looking for excellence, rather than the results of it,
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尋求的是卓越而非成果時，
02:35
everything arrived on its own, including fulfillment.
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一切都水到渠成，包含自我實現。
02:40
Photography transcended culture, including my own.
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攝影是超越於文化之上的，包含我自己的文化；
02:43
And it is, for me, a language which expressed the intangible,
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對我而言，攝影是表達看不到的東西的一種語言，
02:47
and gives voice to people and stories without.
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也是賦予無聲的人或故事的一種聲音。
02:49
I invite you into three recent stories of mine,
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我要講三個最近發生在我身上的故事，
02:51
which are about this way of looking, if you will,
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讓我們用這樣的方式來看，假如您可以的話，
02:54
which I believe exemplify the tenets
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我相信我的故事
02:57
of what I like to call compassion in storytelling.
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可以證明同情心的存在。
03:01
In 2007 I went to Liberia,
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在2007年，我去了賴比瑞亞，
03:06
where a group of my friends and I
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一群朋友和我
03:10
did an independent, self-funded film, still in progress,
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正在那裡製作一部獨立製片的影片，
03:13
on a very legendary and brutal war-lord
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故事是關於一位非常傳奇、也很殘酷的軍閥---
03:17
named General Butt Naked.
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光屁股(Butt Naked)將軍。
03:19
His real name is Joshua, and he's pictured here in a cell
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他的真實姓名是賈許(Joshua)，這張照片拍攝於一個囚室，
03:22
where he once used to torture and murder people,
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他在這裡曾用酷刑虐待和謀殺很多人，
03:25
including children.
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包含小孩。
03:28
Joshua claims to have personally killed
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賈許坦承在賴比瑞亞內戰裡，
03:30
more than 10,000 people during Liberia's civil war.
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親自謀殺了超過一萬人。
03:34
He got his name from fighting stark naked.
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他的名字得自於他戰鬥時的一絲不掛，
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And he is probably the most prolific mass murderer
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他可能是至今還活在世界上
03:39
alive on Earth today.
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屠殺最多人的殺人犯。
03:42
This woman witnessed the General murdering her brother.
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這位女性親眼目睹將軍殺害了她的弟弟，
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Joshua commanded his child-soldiers to commit unspeakable crimes,
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賈許命令他的兒童士兵犯下滔天罪行，
03:50
and enforced his command with great brutality.
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並以十分殘酷的方式執行他的命令。
03:53
Today many of these children are addicted to drugs like heroin,
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今天，許多這些童兵還沉迷於毒品海洛因，
03:56
and they are destitute, like these young men in the image.
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就像照片中的這些年輕人，他們是非常貧困的。
04:01
How do you live with yourself
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如果你知道你犯下了可怕的罪行，
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if you know you've committed horrific crimes?
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你要如何面對你自己呢？
04:08
Today the General is a baptized Christian evangelist.
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現在，這位將軍已是受洗過的基督教傳道者，
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And he's on a mission.
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他有他的使命。
04:14
We accompanied Joshua, as he walked the Earth,
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我們陪同著賈許，
04:17
visiting villages where he had once killed and raped.
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前往他曾殺害和強姦人民的鄉村，
04:20
He seeked forgiveness,
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祈求人們的原諒，
04:22
and he claims to endeavor to improve
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並聲稱他會努力改善
04:24
the lives of his child-soldiers.
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童兵的生活。
04:26
During this expedition I expected him
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在這次旅途中，我以為
04:28
to be killed outright, and us as well.
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他會被當場打死，我們也逃不了。
04:30
But what I saw opened my eyes
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但是，我卻大開眼界，
04:32
to an idea of forgiveness
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看到人們對他的寬恕，
04:34
which I never thought possible.
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這是我從沒想過會發生的事。
04:37
In the midst of incredible poverty and loss,
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在難以置信的貧困和損失當中，
04:40
people who had nothing absolved a man
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一無所有的人們
04:42
who had taken everything from them.
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寬恕了眼前這位曾經奪走一切的人。
04:46
He begs for forgiveness,
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他祈求這位女士寬恕
04:48
and receives it from the same woman
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他殺害她弟弟的罪行，
04:50
whose brother he murdered.
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這位女士寬恕了他。
04:53
Senegalese, the young man seated on the wheelchair here,
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席尼格里，這位坐在輪椅上的年輕人，
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was once a child soldier, under the General's command,
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曾經是將軍手下的兒童士兵。
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until he disobeyed orders,
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由於他不服從命令，
05:00
and the General shot off both his legs.
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而被將軍槍擊，失去了雙腿。
05:04
He forgives the General in this image.
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在這張照片中，年輕人寬恕了將軍。
05:07
He risked his life as he walked up to people
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他冒著生命危險，走向人群，
05:09
whose families he'd murdered.
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他曾謀殺過那些人的家人。
05:12
In this photograph a hostile crowd in a slum surrounds him.
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這張照片裡，貧民窟裡充滿敵意的人們包圍著他。
05:15
And Joshua remains silent
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賈許在面對他們的憤怒時，
05:18
as they vented their rage against him.
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始終保持沉默。
05:22
This image, to me, is almost like from a Shakespearean play,
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對我來說，這張照片幾乎就像是莎士比亞的戲劇：
05:24
with a man, surrounded by various influences,
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一個人在多重壓力之下，
05:27
desperate to hold on to something true within himself,
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極力想抓住自己信奉的真理，
05:31
in a context of great suffering that he has created himself.
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而他自己竟是造成這些苦難的元凶。
05:35
I was intensely moved during all this.
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這一切讓我很感動。
05:37
But the question is,
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但問題是，
05:39
does forgiveness and redemption replace justice?
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寬恕和救贖是否可以取代正義？
05:43
Joshua, in his own words, says that he does not mind
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賈許用自己的話說，
05:45
standing trial for his crimes,
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他並不介意接受審判，
05:47
and speaks about them from soapboxes across Monrovia,
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也不介意將他的罪行公諸於世，他願意走遍蒙羅維亞，
05:49
to an audience that often includes his victims.
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讓所有他的受害者聽聽他的罪行。
05:53
A very unlikely spokesperson for the idea of
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將軍成了最不可思議的
05:55
separation of church and state.
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政教分離宣達使。
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The second story I'm going to tell you about
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我要告訴您們的第二個故事，
06:00
is about a group of very special fighting women
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是有關一群特別的女鬥士，
06:02
with rather unique peace-keeping skills.
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她們有特殊的維持和平的能力。
06:05
Liberia has been devastated by one of Africa's
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賴比瑞亞曾飽受非洲
06:07
bloodiest civil wars,
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最血腥的內戰之一摧殘，
06:09
which has left more than 200,000 people dead,
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造成20萬以上的人罹難，
06:11
thousands of women scarred by rape and crime
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成千上萬名婦女受到強暴，並大規模地
06:13
on a spectacular scale.
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受到其他罪行的傷害。
06:16
Liberia is now home
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現在聯合國已派遣一支
06:18
to an all-woman United Nations contingent
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來自印度、且全由女性組成的維和部隊，
06:20
of Indian peacekeepers.
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進駐賴比瑞亞。
06:23
These women, many from small towns in India,
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這些女性，許多是來自印度的小鎮。
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help keep the peace, far away from home and family.
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她們遠離家園，前來協助維護和平。
06:30
They use negotiation and tolerance
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她們使用協商及包容的方式，
06:32
more often than an armed response.
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多過於使用武力回應。
06:34
The commander told me that a woman could gauge
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她們的領導人告訴我，女性評估
06:36
a potentially violent situation
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潛在暴力狀況的能力，
06:38
much better than men.
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遠比男性來得強。
06:40
And that they were definitely capable of diffusing it non-aggressively.
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而她們絕對有能力使用非侵略性的方式化解這些局面。
06:44
This man was very drunk,
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這一位爛醉的男性，
06:46
and he was very interested in my camera,
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對我的照相機非常感興趣，
06:48
until he noticed the women, who handled him
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直到他注意到了這群女性：
06:50
with smiles, and AK-47s at the ready, of course.
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她們配備著AK-47步槍，對他微笑。
06:53
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
06:54
This contingent seems to be quite lucky,
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這支維和部隊似乎非常幸運，
06:57
and it has not sustained any casualties,
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到目前為止都沒有任何傷亡記錄，
06:59
even though dozens of peacekeepers have been killed in Liberia.
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雖然在賴比瑞亞，已經有許多和平維護者遭到殺害。
07:02
And yes, all of those people killed were male.
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是的，所有被殺害的和平維護者都是男性。
07:06
Many of the women are married with children,
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許多成員都已婚，並有孩子。
07:08
and they say the hardest part of their deployment
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她們說，最困難的部分，
07:11
was being kept away from their children.
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就是必須遠離她們的孩子。
07:14
I accompanied these women on their patrols,
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我陪著她們一起巡邏，
07:16
and watched as they walked past men,
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並看到許多男人在她們經過的時候，
07:18
many who passed very lewd comments incessantly.
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不斷地拋出猥褻的話語。
07:21
And when I asked one of the women about the shock and awe response,
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當我詢問她們其中一位成員她們對這些反應的看法時，
07:23
she said, "Don't worry, same thing back home.
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她回答：「不用擔心，在我們家鄉也是這樣。
07:25
We know how to deal with these fellows,"
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我們早就知道該如何對付這些傢伙了，」
07:27
and ignored them.
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她根本不理他們。
07:30
In a country ravaged by violence against women,
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在這樣一個對女性加諸暴力的國家，
07:32
Indian peacekeepers have inspired many local women
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來自於印度的和平維護者，鼓勵了許多當地女性
07:35
to join the police force.
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加入警察的行列。
07:37
Sometimes, when the war is over and all the film crews have left,
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有時候，當戰爭已經結束，所有的電影攝製隊已經離開之後，
07:40
the most inspiring stories are the ones
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那些最激動人心的故事，
07:42
that float just beneath the radar.
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往往都是最不為人知的。
07:45
I came back to India and nobody was interested in buying the story.
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我回到印度兜售這個故事，但沒有人有興趣。
07:49
And one editor told me that she wasn't interested
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有一個編輯告訴我說，她對這些
07:51
in doing what she called "manual labor stories."
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「勞動者的故事」並不感興趣。
07:56
In 2007 and 2009 I did stories on the Delhi Fire Service, the DFS,
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在2007年和2009年間，我為德里消防局(DFS)製作了影片。
08:01
which, during the summer, is probably the world's most active fire department.
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在夏季，DFS可能是世界上最忙碌的消防隊，
08:04
They answer more than 5,000 calls in just two months.
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他們在兩個月內就接到超過5,000個救災電話。
08:07
And all this against incredible logistical odds,
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有些事情完全違背了我們一般的思考邏輯，
08:10
like heat and traffic jams.
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像是猛烈的火勢和交通阻塞等。
08:13
Something amazing happened during this shoot.
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在拍攝過程中，我們也會遇到一些令人吃驚的事。
08:15
Due to a traffic jam, we were late in getting to a slum,
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有一次因為交通阻塞，我們無法及時趕到一個貧民窟，
08:18
a large slum, which had caught fire.
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那是一個很大的貧民窟，它著火了。
08:21
As we neared, angry crowds attacked our trucks
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當我們接近貧民窟時，數百人從各個方向
08:24
and stoned them, by hundreds of people all over the place.
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投擲石塊，憤怒地攻擊我們的消防車。
08:27
These men were terrified,
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當暴徒襲擊我們車輛的時候，
08:29
as the mob attacked our vehicle.
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這些消防員嚇壞了。
08:32
But nonetheless, despite the hostility,
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儘管暴徒的敵意如此強烈，
08:34
firefighters left the vehicle and successfully fought the fire.
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消防隊員還是跳下消防車，並且成功地滅了火。
08:38
Running the gauntlet through hostile crowds,
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他們試圖通過充滿敵意的人群，
08:40
and some wearing motorbike helmets to prevent injury.
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有些消防員還為了防止受傷而戴著摩托車安全帽，
08:43
Some of the local people forcibly took away the hoses
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當地一些居民甚至強行帶走了
08:46
from the firemen to put out the fire in their homes.
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消防員撲滅大火用的水管。
08:49
Now, hundreds of homes were destroyed.
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現在，數百個住家被燒毀了。
08:51
But the question that lingered in my mind was,
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但縈繞在我心頭的問題是，
08:55
what causes people to destroy fire trucks
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到底是什麼原因，讓人們破壞這些
08:58
headed to their own homes?
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原本要去幫忙滅火的消防車?
09:00
Where does such rage come from?
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他們的憤怒究竟從何而來？
09:03
And how are we responsible for this?
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而我們又該負起什麼責任呢？
09:07
45 percent of the 14 million people
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在德里的一千四百萬人口裡，有百分之四十五的人，
09:10
who live in Delhi live in unauthorized slums,
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居住在擁擠的非法貧民窟內，
09:12
which are chronically overcrowded.
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裡面長期人滿為患，
09:15
They lack even the most basic amenities.
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也缺乏最基本的設施，
09:17
And this is something that is common to all our big cities.
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在印度的所有大城市裡，這算司空見慣的事。
09:22
Back to the DFS. A huge chemical depot caught fire,
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再回到DFS，有一個巨大的化學品倉庫起火，
09:25
thousands of drums filled with petrochemicals
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在我們的周圍有數千桶石化液體
09:28
were blazing away and exploding all around us.
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爆炸燃燒。
09:31
The heat was so intense, that hoses were used
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火勢非常的猛烈，消防水管被用來
09:33
to cool down firefighters
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噴水在最靠近火場、
09:35
fighting extremely close to the fire, and with no protective clothing.
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且沒有任何防護衣物的消防員身上，以便降溫。
09:39
In India we often love to complain about our government bodies.
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在印度，我們常常喜歡抱怨我們的政府機構，
09:43
But over here, the heads of the DFS,
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但是在這裡， DFS的首長，
09:45
Mr. R.C. Sharman, Mr. A.K. Sharman,
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二位沙曼先生，
09:47
led the firefight with their men.
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帶領他們消防隊員直衝現場滅火。
09:50
Something wonderful in a country where
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這對看不起勞動工作者的國家來說，
09:52
manual labor is often looked down upon.
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是一件很了不起的事。
09:55
(Applause)
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(掌聲)
09:59
Over the years, my faith in the power of storytelling has been tested.
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我原本認為故事本身有一種力量，但這些年來，我一直對這個信念存疑，
10:03
And I've had very serious doubt about its efficacy,
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我曾經非常嚴肅地懷疑它的功效，
10:06
and my own faith in humanity.
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也懷疑自己對於人性還有幾分信任。
10:08
However, a film we shot still airs on the National Geographic channel.
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然而，我們拍攝的影片卻一直在國家地理頻道播出。
10:12
And when it airs I get calls from all the guys I was with
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當影片播出時，我接到當時和我一同在現場的那些人的電話，
10:16
and they tell me that they receive hundreds of calls congratulating them.
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他們說他們接到數百通的祝賀電話。
10:20
Some of the firemen told me that they were also inspired
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有些消防隊員告訴我這些電話
10:22
to do better because they were so pleased
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讓他們想做的更好，因為每個人都很高興
10:24
to get thank-yous rather than brick bats.
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能得到別人的感謝，而不是挨打。
10:27
It seems that this story helped change perceptions about the DFS,
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這故事似乎改變了人們對DFS的看法，
10:31
at least in the minds of an audience in part on televisions,
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至少有一部分看過電視、
10:34
read magazines and whose huts aren't on fire.
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讀過雜誌、或自己的小屋沒有起火的人心裡已有改觀。
10:37
Sometimes, focusing on what's heroic, beautiful and dignified,
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有時候，不管實質的內容為何，
10:42
regardless of the context,
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當我們只看所謂的英雄、美麗與尊嚴時，
10:44
can help magnify these intangibles three ways,
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這些無形的特質就會被放大，
10:48
in the protagonist of the story, in the audience,
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讓他們展現在故事的主角、聽眾、
10:52
and also in the storyteller.
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及說故事的人身上，
10:54
And that's the power of storytelling.
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這就是故事的力量。
10:56
Focus on what's dignified, courageous and beautiful,
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只看尊嚴、勇氣和美麗，
10:58
and it grows. Thank you.
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故事的力量就會變大，謝謝！
11:01
(Applause)
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(掌聲)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Ryan Lobo - PhotographerAs a photographer and filmmaker, Ryan Lobo uses his exquisite lens to capture humanity and nature at their most open and vulnerable moments.
Why you should listen
During a recent shoot on the streets and beaches of Chennai, Ryan Lobo turned his lens on men and women in relaxed, after-work poses. His starkly beautiful black-and-white photos, Lobo writes, reveal what it's like “to be young, employed and alive in Chennai today, regardless of one's language, economic class or social skills.” This follows the theme of Lobo's career: breaking down stereotypes while reframing the landscape.
Since 2001, Lobo has been taking haunting stills of everything from Yakuza tattoos and the illegal organ trade to the Indian middle class. He's worked as a field producer on many nature-oriented shows for National Geographic and founded Mad Monitor Productions, a production company based in Bangalore and Washington, D.C. There's no scientific, economic or sociopolitical boundary Lobo isn't willing to cross. His intense fieldwork continues to illuminate his traveling (you can read about his journeys and see photographs on his blog) and a forthcoming book project.
Ryan Lobo | Speaker | TED.com