TEDGlobalLondon
Jon Ronson: When online shaming goes too far
乔恩·朗森: 当网络上的言语攻击失控时，会带来什么后果？
Filmed:
Readability: 4.4
3,565,658 views
在很长一段时间里，乔恩·朗森都为推特的一个功能喝彩：让无处诉说之人可以发声。社交媒体平台让每个人都能畅所欲言，对看到的不公正奋起反击。但不久后，情况直转而下。这是一次慷慨激昂的演讲，朗森向我们展示了一种现象：很多时候我们在网上的发言都以乱喷收场——我们是时候好好反思一下应该如何同他人进行线上互动了。
Jon Ronson - Writer, filmmaker
Jon Ronson is a writer and documentary filmmaker who dips into every flavor of madness, extremism and obsession. Full bio
Jon Ronson is a writer and documentary filmmaker who dips into every flavor of madness, extremism and obsession. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
In the early days of Twitter,
it was like a place of radical de-shaming.
it was like a place of radical de-shaming.
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Twitter 刚出不久时，
像是个奇葩类的供洗耻的地方。
像是个奇葩类的供洗耻的地方。
00:17
People would admit
shameful secrets about themselves,
shameful secrets about themselves,
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人们会直讳一些羞于启齿的秘密，
00:20
and other people would say,
"Oh my God, I'm exactly the same."
"Oh my God, I'm exactly the same."
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其他人就会搭腔说，
“天啊，我跟你一模一样。”
“天啊，我跟你一模一样。”
00:24
Voiceless people realized
that they had a voice,
that they had a voice,
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欲言无处诉的人
意识到自己有话语权了，
意识到自己有话语权了，
00:27
and it was powerful and eloquent.
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而且还能声势浩大、振振有词。
00:30
If a newspaper ran some racist
or homophobic column,
or homophobic column,
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遇到哪份报张发表了种族歧视
或反同性恋的言论时，
或反同性恋的言论时，
00:35
we realized we could do
something about it.
something about it.
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我们就知道可以
采取行动了。
采取行动了。
00:37
We could get them.
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我们能把他们揪出来。
00:39
We could hit them with a weapon
that we understood but they didn't --
that we understood but they didn't --
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我们可以用炮轰他们，
——用他们觉得陌生而我们得心应手的武器，
——用他们觉得陌生而我们得心应手的武器，
00:42
a social media shaming.
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叫社交媒体羞辱法。
00:45
Advertisers would withdraw
their advertising.
their advertising.
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广告商就会撤回广告。
00:48
When powerful people
misused their privilege,
misused their privilege,
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遇到有权有势之士滥用特权的时候，
00:51
we were going to get them.
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我们就可以把他们给揪出来。
00:54
This was like the
democratization of justice.
democratization of justice.
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简直就像司法的民主化。
00:57
Hierarchies were being leveled out.
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阶层差异被推平了。
00:59
We were going to do things better.
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很多事情我们都可以做得更好了。
01:02
Soon after that, a disgraced
pop science writer called Jonah Lehrer --
pop science writer called Jonah Lehrer --
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那之后不久，一位名叫乔纳·雷尔的知名科学作家，
做了件丢人的事——
做了件丢人的事——
01:06
he'd been caught plagiarizing
and faking quotes,
and faking quotes,
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抄袭和捏造引据，
01:10
and he was drenched in shame
and regret, he told me.
and regret, he told me.
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并因之深陷羞辱和悔恨，他对我说，
01:13
And he had the opportunity
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他得到一个机会
01:15
to publicly apologize
at a foundation lunch.
at a foundation lunch.
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可以在一次基金午餐会上公开道歉。
01:19
This was going to be the most
important speech of his life.
important speech of his life.
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那将会是他生命中
最重要的一次讲话的了。
最重要的一次讲话的了。
01:22
Maybe it would win him some salvation.
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可能会为他挽回一点颜面。
01:25
He knew before he arrived
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出席之前他知道
01:26
that the foundation was going to be
live-streaming his event,
live-streaming his event,
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该基金会将要流媒体直播他的讲话，
01:29
but what he didn't know
until he turned up,
until he turned up,
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但他没有料到的是，到了会场之后，
01:31
was that they'd erected a giant screen
Twitter feed right next to his head.
Twitter feed right next to his head.
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才发现现场竖起了一个巨大的
推特荧屏，就挨他的头旁边。
推特荧屏，就挨他的头旁边。
01:36
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
01:38
Another one in a monitor screen
in his eye line.
in his eye line.
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另一个电脑荧屏则在他的视线之内。
01:40
I don't think the foundation did this
because they were monstrous.
because they were monstrous.
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该基金会的如此做法
我不认为是出于豺狼之性，
我不认为是出于豺狼之性，
01:44
I think they were clueless:
I think this was a unique moment
I think this was a unique moment
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我认为他们是愚昧而已：
以我之见，就在那特别一刻
以我之见，就在那特别一刻
01:47
when the beautiful naivety of Twitter
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推特的美丽单纯
01:49
was hitting the increasingly
horrific reality.
horrific reality.
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与现实的日益残酷来了场正面碰撞。
01:53
And here were some of the Tweets
that were cascading into his eye line,
that were cascading into his eye line,
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以下几条是当时在现场出现的推文，
01:57
as he was trying to apologize:
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当时他正准备道歉：
01:58
"Jonah Lehrer, boring us
into forgiving him."
into forgiving him."
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“乔纳·雷尔，想通过
让我们无聊的方式来原谅他。”
让我们无聊的方式来原谅他。”
02:02
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
02:03
And, "Jonah Lehrer has not proven
that he is capable of feeling shame."
that he is capable of feeling shame."
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“乔纳·雷尔仍未证明
自己是个会羞耻的人。”
自己是个会羞耻的人。”
02:08
That one must have been written
by the best psychiatrist ever,
by the best psychiatrist ever,
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写这条的人一定是
史上最高明的精神医生，
史上最高明的精神医生，
02:12
to know that about such
a tiny figure behind a lectern.
a tiny figure behind a lectern.
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远远看一眼讲台后的小小身影
就能进行诊断
就能进行诊断
02:16
And, "Jonah Lehrer is just
a frigging sociopath."
a frigging sociopath."
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“乔纳·雷尔个彻头彻尾的变态狂。“
02:19
That last word is a very human thing
to do, to dehumanize the people we hurt.
to do, to dehumanize the people we hurt.
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最后一个词的使用是人性使然，
是为了把我们要伤害的人非人化。
是为了把我们要伤害的人非人化。
02:25
It's because we want to destroy people
but not feel bad about it.
but not feel bad about it.
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因为我们想在毁灭别人的同时
自己感觉不到痛苦。
自己感觉不到痛苦。
02:30
Imagine if this was an actual court,
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想象一下如果这是在法庭里面，
02:32
and the accused was in the dark,
begging for another chance,
begging for another chance,
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被告还蒙在鼓里，
乞求给予第二次机会，
乞求给予第二次机会，
02:35
and the jury was yelling out,
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陪审员已经先声夺人，
02:37
"Bored! Sociopath!"
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”无聊啊！你个变态！“
02:40
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
02:41
You know, when we watch
courtroom dramas, we tend to identify
courtroom dramas, we tend to identify
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对吧，一般我们看法律剧的时候，总倾向于
02:44
with the kindhearted defense attorney,
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那个心地善良的辩方大律师，
02:47
but give us the power,
and we become like hanging judges.
and we become like hanging judges.
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而一旦拥有了权力，
我们就变成爱判死刑的法官了。
我们就变成爱判死刑的法官了。
02:51
Power shifts fast.
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势头如风，瞬息万变。
02:54
We were getting Jonah because he was
perceived to have misused his privilege,
perceived to have misused his privilege,
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之前，我们把乔纳给揪出来，
因为他滥用自己的特权，
因为他滥用自己的特权，
02:58
but Jonah was on the floor then,
and we were still kicking,
and we were still kicking,
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但当乔纳已经倒下了，
我们还上去补两脚，
我们还上去补两脚，
03:02
and congratulating ourselves
for punching up.
for punching up.
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还以为自己英雄了得，沾沾自喜。
03:05
And it began to feel weird and empty
when there wasn't a powerful person
when there wasn't a powerful person
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而当找不到一个滥用职权的人可供攻击时，
03:09
who had misused their privilege
that we could get.
that we could get.
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甚至会感到寂寞空虚冷。
03:13
A day without a shaming
began to feel like a day
began to feel like a day
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哪天无人可辱，就觉得
03:16
picking fingernails and treading water.
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人生无望，惶惶不可终日了。
03:21
Let me tell you a story.
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这里给各位说个故事。
03:23
It's about a woman called Justine Sacco.
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一位名叫贾丝婷·萨科的女士的故事。
03:26
She was a PR woman from New York
with 170 Twitter followers,
with 170 Twitter followers,
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她住纽约，从事公关工作，
有170 位推特粉丝，
有170 位推特粉丝，
03:30
and she'd Tweet little
acerbic jokes to them,
acerbic jokes to them,
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不时会发些尖酸刻薄的笑话。
03:33
like this one on a plane
from New York to London:
from New York to London:
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比如这个，是她从纽约
去伦敦途中在飞机上发的：
去伦敦途中在飞机上发的：
03:37
[Weird German Dude: You're in first class.
It's 2014. Get some deodorant."
It's 2014. Get some deodorant."
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[怪异德国男：你搭的可是头等舱啊。
都2014年了。也不搽点除臭剂。]
都2014年了。也不搽点除臭剂。]
03:40
-Inner monologue as inhale BO.
Thank god for pharmaceuticals.]
Thank god for pharmaceuticals.]
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——呼入体臭时的内心独白 。幸亏我有药。]
03:44
So Justine chuckled to herself,
and pressed send, and got no replies,
and pressed send, and got no replies,
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之后贾丝婷对自己笑了笑，
按了发送键，没得到任何回应，
按了发送键，没得到任何回应，
03:47
and felt that sad feeling that we all feel
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顿感一阵悲哀，我们也一样
03:49
when the Internet doesn't
congratulate us for being funny.
congratulate us for being funny.
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在网上说了个笑话，没人搭理，
我们也悲哀。
我们也悲哀。
03:53
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
03:54
Black silence when the Internet
doesn't talk back.
doesn't talk back.
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网上无人回应，简直是人间悲剧。
03:58
And then she got to Heathrow,
and she had a little time to spare
and she had a little time to spare
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抵达希思罗机场后，
她还有点空闲时间要打发，
她还有点空闲时间要打发，
04:01
before her final leg, so she thought up
another funny little acerbic joke:
another funny little acerbic joke:
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离下班飞机起飞还有段时间，
她又编了一尖酸小段子：
她又编了一尖酸小段子：
04:06
[Going to Africa. Hope I don't get AIDS.
Just kidding. I'm white!]
Just kidding. I'm white!]
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[去非洲路上。希望到时不会染上艾滋病。
说个笑呵。俺可是白人哦！ ]
说个笑呵。俺可是白人哦！ ]
04:10
And she chuckled to herself, pressed send,
got on the plane, got no replies,
got on the plane, got no replies,
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她又自己笑了笑，按了发送键，
上了飞机，也没得到回应，
上了飞机，也没得到回应，
04:16
turned off her phone, fell asleep,
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关上手机，睡觉去了，
04:19
woke up 11 hours later,
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11个小时后醒来，
04:21
turned on her phone while the plane
was taxiing on the runway,
was taxiing on the runway,
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打开手机，飞机还在跑道上滑行，
04:24
and straightaway there was
a message from somebody
a message from somebody
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旋即，她收到一条短信，
来自一个
来自一个
04:27
that she hadn't spoken
to since high school,
to since high school,
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她中学毕业后就没见过的人的，
04:29
that said, "I am so sorry
to see what's happening to you."
to see what's happening to you."
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短信说:"对于你经历的这一切，我真替你难过。“
04:35
And then another message
from a best friend,
from a best friend,
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还有一个短信来自
她最要好的朋友：
她最要好的朋友：
04:37
"You need to call me right now.
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”马上给我打电话。
04:39
You are the worldwide number one
trending topic on Twitter."
trending topic on Twitter."
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你成了推特全球第一
的热门话题。“
的热门话题。“
04:43
(Laughter)
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（嘘声）
04:46
What had happened is that one
of her 170 followers had sent the Tweet
of her 170 followers had sent the Tweet
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发生了啥事呢，就是她的
那170个粉丝当中有一人将这条推文
那170个粉丝当中有一人将这条推文
04:49
to a Gawker journalist, and he
retweeted it to his 15,000 followers:
retweeted it to his 15,000 followers:
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转发给了Gawker网的一个记者，后者又转发给
自己的 15,000名粉丝：
自己的 15,000名粉丝：
04:55
[And now, a funny holiday joke
from IAC's PR boss]
from IAC's PR boss]
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[现送上：IAC 公关一姐
的假期段子]
的假期段子]
04:57
And then it was like a bolt of lightning.
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接下来就一发不可收拾了。
04:59
A few weeks later, I talked
to the Gawker journalist.
to the Gawker journalist.
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几周之后我联系过那个
Gawker网记者的。
Gawker网记者的。
05:02
I emailed him and asked him how it felt,
and he said, "It felt delicious."
and he said, "It felt delicious."
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我电邮给他，问他当时感觉如何，
他说：“真是痛快之极啊。”
他说：“真是痛快之极啊。”
05:06
And then he said,
"But I'm sure she's fine."
"But I'm sure she's fine."
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接着他说：
“我敢保证她没事。”
“我敢保证她没事。”
05:09
But she wasn't fine,
because while she slept,
because while she slept,
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但她怎么可能没事，
在她睡着的时候，
在她睡着的时候，
05:12
Twitter took control of her life
and dismantled it piece by piece.
and dismantled it piece by piece.
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推特掌控了她的生活，
并让其分崩离析。
并让其分崩离析。
05:19
First there were the philanthropists:
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首先下手的是那些慈善家：
05:21
[If @JustineSacco's unfortunate
words ... bother you,
words ... bother you,
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[如果@贾丝婷·萨科的不慎之言
使你不安，
使你不安，
05:24
join me in supporting
@CARE's work in Africa.]
@CARE's work in Africa.]
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来和我一起支持非洲的
援助工作吧。]
援助工作吧。]
[读了那篇恶心的种族论推文，我今天就捐款给@Care。全文见...]
05:26
[In light of ... disgusting,
racist tweet, I'm donating to @care today]
racist tweet, I'm donating to @care today]
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继而是更可怕的：
05:30
Then came the beyond horrified:
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[无语。极度种族论，来自
贾丝婷·萨科的操蛋贴。
贾丝婷·萨科的操蛋贴。
05:31
[... no words for that horribly disgusting
racist as fuck tweet from Justine Sacco.
racist as fuck tweet from Justine Sacco.
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我简直惊呆了。]
在座的有那天晚上
上推特的吗？好几位。
上推特的吗？好几位。
05:35
I am beyond horrified.]
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05:36
Was anybody on Twitter
that night? A few of you.
that night? A few of you.
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05:39
Did Justine's joke overwhelm
your Twitter feed the way it did mine?
your Twitter feed the way it did mine?
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你们的推特也像我的那样
被贾丝婷的段子刷屏了吗？
被贾丝婷的段子刷屏了吗？
05:42
It did mine, and I thought
what everybody thought that night,
what everybody thought that night,
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我是被刷屏了，
当时就和大家想的一样，
当时就和大家想的一样，
05:45
which was, "Wow, somebody's screwed!
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就是：”哇塞，有人捅了马蜂窝啦！
05:48
Somebody's life is about to get terrible!"
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有人要倒大霉了！“
05:50
And I sat up in my bed,
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然后我在床上坐起来，
05:52
and I put the pillow behind my head,
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抓起枕头搁脑袋后面，
05:55
and then I thought, I'm not entirely sure
that joke was intended to be racist.
that joke was intended to be racist.
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然后琢磨，我真不确定
这段子真的有种族主义倾向。
这段子真的有种族主义倾向。
06:00
Maybe instead of gleefully
flaunting her privilege,
flaunting her privilege,
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也许她并不是在洋洋得意地
显摆自己，
显摆自己，
06:03
she was mocking the gleeful
flaunting of privilege.
flaunting of privilege.
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只是在嘲讽这种显摆而已。
06:05
There's a comedy tradition of this,
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喜剧里都有这样的传统，
06:07
like South Park or Colbert
or Randy Newman.
or Randy Newman.
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如《南方公园》或科尔伯特
或兰迪·纽曼。
或兰迪·纽曼。
06:11
Maybe Justine Sacco's crime was not being
as good at it as Randy Newman.
as good at it as Randy Newman.
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也许贾丝婷·萨科之罪在于
嘲讽得不如 兰迪·纽曼高明吧。
嘲讽得不如 兰迪·纽曼高明吧。
06:16
In fact, when I met Justine
a couple of weeks later in a bar,
a couple of weeks later in a bar,
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事实呢，两周后我和贾丝婷
在一酒吧碰了头，
在一酒吧碰了头，
06:19
she was just crushed,
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她人已完全崩溃，
06:21
and I asked her to explain the joke,
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我让她对那个段子做个解释，
06:23
and she said, "Living in America
puts us in a bit of a bubble
puts us in a bit of a bubble
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她说：”生活在美国
就像生活在一个气泡里似的，
就像生活在一个气泡里似的，
06:27
when it comes to what is going on
in the Third World.
in the Third World.
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不知道第三世界到底发生了什么。
06:29
I was making of fun of that bubble."
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我是在嘲笑那个气泡。“
06:32
You know, another woman on Twitter that
night, a New Statesman writer Helen Lewis,
night, a New Statesman writer Helen Lewis,
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那晚在推特上的还有
New Statesman杂志的作家,海伦·刘易斯,
New Statesman杂志的作家,海伦·刘易斯,
06:36
she reviewed my book on public shaming
and wrote that she Tweeted that night,
and wrote that she Tweeted that night,
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她给我关于众羞的那本书写了书评，
她写到，当晚她也发个推文：
她写到，当晚她也发个推文：
06:40
"I'm not sure that her joke
was intended to be racist,"
was intended to be racist,"
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”我不敢肯定她的笑话
是藏有种族论用心的，“
是藏有种族论用心的，“
06:43
and she said straightaway she got
a fury of Tweets saying,
a fury of Tweets saying,
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马上她就收到一大堆回帖，说:
06:46
"Well, you're just
a privileged bitch, too."
a privileged bitch, too."
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"呵，那你跟她一样
也是个养尊处优的母狗了。”
也是个养尊处优的母狗了。”
06:48
And so to her shame, she wrote,
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就这样，她写到，碍于羞愧，
06:51
she shut up and watched
as Justine's life got torn apart.
as Justine's life got torn apart.
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她就闭了嘴，静观
贾丝婷的生活被瓦解了。
贾丝婷的生活被瓦解了。
06:57
It started to get darker:
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事情愈发糟糕：
06:59
[Everyone go report
this cunt @JustineSacco]
this cunt @JustineSacco]
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[大家都快来举报
这个X婆 @贾丝婷·萨科]
这个X婆 @贾丝婷·萨科]
07:02
Then came the calls for her to be fired.
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接着就有人开始说该把她炒了。
07:05
[Good luck with the job hunt
in the new year. #GettingFired]
in the new year. #GettingFired]
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[祝新年寻工好运。
#要找工]
#要找工]
07:07
Thousands of people around the world
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全球成千上万的人
07:09
decided it was their duty
to get her fired.
to get her fired.
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将把贾丝婷炒鱿鱼视为己任。
07:13
[@JustineSacco last tweet
of your career. #SorryNotSorry
of your career. #SorryNotSorry
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[@贾丝婷·萨科你职途的
最后一帖。#悔过不悔过]
最后一帖。#悔过不悔过]
07:17
Corporations got involved,
hoping to sell their products
hoping to sell their products
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商家也跑来凑热闹，
希望能趁机兜售产品，
希望能趁机兜售产品，
07:20
on the back of Justine's annihilation:
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都是顺着贾丝婷之途来的：
07:22
[Next time you plan to tweet something
stupid before you take off,
stupid before you take off,
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[下一次你登机前要发个
猪脑帖的话，
猪脑帖的话，
07:25
make sure you are getting
on a @Gogo flight!]
on a @Gogo flight!]
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务必先买了@Gogo机舱
无线网！]
无线网！]
07:28
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
07:30
A lot of companies were making
good money that night.
good money that night.
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不少公司在那天晚上
赚了一大笔。
赚了一大笔。
07:33
You know, Justine's name was normally
Googled 40 times a month.
Googled 40 times a month.
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贾丝婷的名字平时被谷歌
的次数是每月40次。
的次数是每月40次。
07:37
That month, between December the 20th
and the end of December,
and the end of December,
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那个月，即12月20日至
该月底，
该月底，
07:40
her name was Googled 1,220,000 times.
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她的名字被谷歌了122万次。
07:45
And one Internet economist told me
that that meant that Google made
that that meant that Google made
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一位网络经济学家告诉说
那意味着谷歌赚了
那意味着谷歌赚了
07:49
somewhere between 120,000 dollars
and 468,000 dollars
and 468,000 dollars
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约12万至46万8千美元之间
07:54
from Justine's annihilation, whereas
those of us doing the actual shaming --
those of us doing the actual shaming --
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全有赖于贾丝婷的毁灭，而我们这些喷子，
07:58
we got nothing.
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连一个子儿都没拿到。
07:59
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
08:00
We were like unpaid
shaming interns for Google.
shaming interns for Google.
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我们就好像是谷歌的
免薪喷子实习生似的。
免薪喷子实习生似的。
08:04
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
08:07
And then came the trolls:
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继而就是那些寻畔的了：
08:09
[I'm actually kind of hoping
Justine Sacco gets aids? lol]
Justine Sacco gets aids? lol]
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[我不知为何挺希望
贾丝婷·萨科真染上艾滋的。大笑]
贾丝婷·萨科真染上艾滋的。大笑]
08:12
Somebody else on that wrote,
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有人在那上面写道：
08:14
"Somebody HIV-positive should rape
this bitch and then we'll find out
this bitch and then we'll find out
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“应该找个艾滋阳性的去
强奸那母狗，我们就能知道
强奸那母狗，我们就能知道
08:17
if her skin color protects her from AIDS."
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她的肤色能否保护她不染艾滋了。”
08:19
And that person got a free pass.
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如此恶言者倒免挨板子了。
08:22
Nobody went after that person.
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竟没有一个人去追剿那家伙。
08:24
We were all so excited
about destroying Justine,
about destroying Justine,
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我们人人都为了要毁灭
贾丝婷而忙得不可开交。
贾丝婷而忙得不可开交。
08:26
and our shaming brains
are so simple-minded,
are so simple-minded,
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我们的众辱心态
是如此的一心一意，
是如此的一心一意，
08:29
that we couldn't also handle
destroying somebody
destroying somebody
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竟无法同时毁灭
08:31
who was inappropriately
destroying Justine.
destroying Justine.
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那些正在无理毁灭贾丝婷的人。
08:35
Justine was really uniting
a lot of disparate groups that night,
a lot of disparate groups that night,
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贾丝婷在那一晚着实团结了
许多种类各异的群体，
许多种类各异的群体，
08:39
from philanthropists to "rape the bitch."
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从做慈善的，到叫喊“强奸那母狗”的都有。
08:42
[@JustineSacco I hope you get fired!
You demented bitch...
You demented bitch...
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[@贾丝婷·萨科我愿你被炒鱿鱼!
你这疯癫的母狗......
你这疯癫的母狗......
08:46
Just let the world know you're planning
to ride bare back while in Africa.]
to ride bare back while in Africa.]
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向全世界宣告你在非洲的时候
将不戴套就做吧。]
将不戴套就做吧。]
08:50
Women always have it worse than men.
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这类事件中女性遭受的侮辱总比男性更糟糕。
08:52
When a man gets shamed, it's,
"I'm going to get you fired."
"I'm going to get you fired."
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男性在遭受众辱时，通常是：
“我要搞到你被炒鱿鱼为止。”
“我要搞到你被炒鱿鱼为止。”
08:55
When a woman gets shamed, it's,
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当女性被众辱是，通常是：
08:57
"I'm going to get you fired
and raped and cut out your uterus."
and raped and cut out your uterus."
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“我要搞到你被炒鱿鱼，
被强奸、割掉你的子宫。“
被强奸、割掉你的子宫。“
09:01
And then Justine's employers got involved:
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然后呢，贾丝婷的雇主也搭腔了：
09:04
[IAC on @JustineSacco tweet: This is an
outrageous, offensive comment.
outrageous, offensive comment.
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[IAC 就@贾丝婷·萨科发表推文：
该帖出言不逊，令人发指。
该帖出言不逊，令人发指。
09:07
Employee in question currently
unreachable on an intl flight.]
unreachable on an intl flight.]
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事主雇员目前在飞机上，
暂时联络不上。]
暂时联络不上。]
09:10
And that's when the anger
turned to excitement:
turned to excitement:
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就这样，愤怒变成了兴奋：
09:12
[All I want for Christmas is to see
@JustineSacco's face when her plane lands
@JustineSacco's face when her plane lands
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[我最想要的圣诞礼物就是
看到@贾丝婷·萨科的航班降落后，
看到@贾丝婷·萨科的航班降落后，
09:16
and she checks
her inbox/voicemail. #fired]
her inbox/voicemail. #fired]
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查看邮箱或留言时
收到 #被炒鱿鱼了]
收到 #被炒鱿鱼了]
09:18
[Oh man, @justinesacco
is going to have the most painful
is going to have the most painful
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[哇噻，当@贾丝婷·萨科的航班降落后，
09:21
phone-turning-on moment ever
when her plane lands.]
when her plane lands.]
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她将迎来最痛苦的开手机时刻。]
09:23
[We are about to watch this @JustineSacco
bitch get fired. In REAL time.
bitch get fired. In REAL time.
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[大伙可以齐齐目睹@贾丝婷·萨科
这母狗被炒啦。现场直播。
这母狗被炒啦。现场直播。
09:27
Before she even KNOWS
she's getting fired.]
she's getting fired.]
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她自己还蒙在鼓里
就被炒鱿鱼了。]
就被炒鱿鱼了。]
09:29
What we had was
a delightful narrative arc.
a delightful narrative arc.
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这无疑成了一段
精彩的大题目：
精彩的大题目：
09:31
We knew something that Justine didn't.
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尽人皆晓的，唯
贾丝婷毫不知情。
贾丝婷毫不知情。
09:33
Can you think of anything
less judicial than this?
less judicial than this?
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还有比这个更
不公正的事情吗？
不公正的事情吗？
09:35
Justine was asleep on a plane
and unable to explain herself,
and unable to explain herself,
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贾丝婷当时在飞机上
睡着，没机会为自己解释，
睡着，没机会为自己解释，
09:38
and her inability was
a huge part of the hilarity.
a huge part of the hilarity.
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而这恰恰是这场闹剧的一大原因。
09:42
On Twitter that night, we were
like toddlers crawling towards a gun.
like toddlers crawling towards a gun.
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那天晚上，大家在推特上面
就像小屁孩爬着去够玩具枪似的。
就像小屁孩爬着去够玩具枪似的。
09:47
Somebody worked out exactly
which plane she was on, so they linked
which plane she was on, so they linked
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有人查到她的航班号，
就把航班号
就把航班号
09:50
to a flight tracker website.
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链接到一个航班跟踪网站上面。
09:52
[British Airways Flight 43
On-time - arrives in 1 hour 34 minutes]
On-time - arrives in 1 hour 34 minutes]
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[英国航空43次航班
准点 -- 1小时34分后达到]
准点 -- 1小时34分后达到]
09:56
A hashtag began trending worldwide:
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马上，这一标签开始在全球走红：
09:58
# hasJustineLandedYet?
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#贾丝婷到达没有？
10:01
[It is kinda wild
to see someone self-destruct
to see someone self-destruct
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[围观某人的自我毁灭
真是叫人兴奋，
真是叫人兴奋，
10:03
without them even being aware of it.
#hasJustineLandedYet]
#hasJustineLandedYet]
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尤其是当事人还毫不知情
#贾丝婷到达没有？]
#贾丝婷到达没有？]
10:06
[Seriously. I just want to go home
to go to bed, but everyone at the bar
to go to bed, but everyone at the bar
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[说实话，我本来想回家睡觉的，
但是酒吧里人人都
但是酒吧里人人都
10:09
is SO into #HasJustineLandedYet.
Can't look away. Can't leave.]
Can't look away. Can't leave.]
193
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在讨论#贾丝婷到达没有？
没法不听，没法走开。]
没法不听，没法走开。]
10:12
[#HasJustineLandedYet may be the best
thing to happen to my Friday night.]
thing to happen to my Friday night.]
194
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[#贾丝婷到达没有？ 可真是
我在周五晚的最佳节目。]
我在周五晚的最佳节目。]
10:16
[Is no one in Cape Town going
to the airport to tweet her arrival?
to the airport to tweet her arrival?
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[在开普敦真的没有人去
机场发推报道她的达到吗？
机场发推报道她的达到吗？
10:19
Come on, twitter! I'd like pictures]
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加把劲儿，推特！俺想看图呢]
10:20
And guess what? Yes there was.
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不用猜，也真的有图片。
10:22
[@JustineSacco HAS in fact landed
at Cape Town international.
at Cape Town international.
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[@贾丝婷·萨科确实已经
抵达开普敦国际机场。
抵达开普敦国际机场。
10:25
And if you want to know
what it looks like to discover
what it looks like to discover
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如果各位想知道
当一个人发现
当一个人发现
10:27
that you've just been torn to shreds
because of a misconstrued liberal joke,
because of a misconstrued liberal joke,
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因自己随便开的一个玩笑
而被千刀万剐是种什么体验，
而被千刀万剐是种什么体验，
10:31
not by trolls, but by nice people like us,
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而且下手的不是网络流氓，
而是像你我一样的好人，
而是像你我一样的好人，
10:33
this is what it looks like:
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读读这些推文就明白了：
10:35
[... She's decided to wear
sunnies as a disguise.]
sunnies as a disguise.]
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2654
[...她选了副墨镜
来做掩护。]
来做掩护。]
10:37
So why did we do it?
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我们为什么会做出
这样的行为的呢？
这样的行为的呢？
10:39
I think some people were genuinely upset,
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依我之见，有的人确实
是因为被冒犯了，
是因为被冒犯了，
10:42
but I think for other people,
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但更多的人是因为
10:44
it's because Twitter is basically
a mutual approval machine.
a mutual approval machine.
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3023
推特本是个互相恭维的工具。
10:47
We surround ourselves with people
who feel the same way we do,
who feel the same way we do,
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2919
我们只允许志同道合的人在周围出现，
10:50
and we approve each other,
209
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1263
我们互相恭维，
10:51
and that's a really good feeling.
210
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1651
感觉好极了。
10:53
And if somebody gets in the way,
we screen them out.
we screen them out.
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2648
遇到意见不一的，
我们就轰走他们。
我们就轰走他们。
10:55
And do you know what
that's the opposite of?
that's the opposite of?
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2087
知道这种行为与什么对立吗？
10:58
It's the opposite of democracy.
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与民主对立。
11:00
We wanted to show that we cared
about people dying of AIDS in Africa.
about people dying of AIDS in Africa.
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3997
我们想对非洲濒临死亡的
艾滋病人表达关怀。
艾滋病人表达关怀。
11:04
Our desire to be seen to be compassionate
is what led us to commit
is what led us to commit
215
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我们太过急于表现自己的同情心，
11:08
this profoundly un-compassionate act.
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3045
结果却导致了如此缺乏同情心的举动。
11:11
As Meghan O'Gieblyn wrote
in the Boston Review,
in the Boston Review,
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像梅根·奥吉布林在
《波士顿评论》上写到：
《波士顿评论》上写到：
11:14
"This isn't social justice.
It's a cathartic alternative."
It's a cathartic alternative."
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"这根本不是社会正义。
这是一种宣泄。”
这是一种宣泄。”
11:19
For the past three years,
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1199
在过去的三年，
11:20
I've been going around the world
meeting people like Justine Sacco --
meeting people like Justine Sacco --
220
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3278
我走遍世界，
走访多位和贾丝婷·萨科有一样遭遇的人
走访多位和贾丝婷·萨科有一样遭遇的人
11:24
and believe me, there's a lot
of people like Justine Sacco.
of people like Justine Sacco.
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2784
说实话，这样的人还真不少。
11:27
There's more every day.
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每天都有更多同样遭遇的。
11:28
And we want to think they're fine,
but they're not fine.
but they're not fine.
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我们都倾向于相信他们没事，
但事实并非如此。
但事实并非如此。
11:32
The people I met were mangled.
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每一个人都深受伤害。
11:34
They talked to me about depression,
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他们说自己感到抑郁，
11:36
and anxiety and insomnia
and suicidal thoughts.
and suicidal thoughts.
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焦虑、失眠，甚至想过自杀。
11:40
One woman I talked to,
who also told a joke that landed badly,
who also told a joke that landed badly,
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其中一位女士，也是因为开了个玩笑，
最后悲剧收场
最后悲剧收场
11:44
she stayed home for a year and a half.
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她把自己关在家里足足一年半。
11:47
Before that, she worked with adults
with learning difficulties,
with learning difficulties,
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之前她的职业是
帮助有学习障碍的成年人，
帮助有学习障碍的成年人，
11:51
and was apparently really good at her job.
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并且是个相当称职的人。
11:55
Justine was fired, of course,
because social media demanded it.
because social media demanded it.
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毫无疑问，贾丝婷把工作丢了，
因为这是社交媒体上的民意。
因为这是社交媒体上的民意。
11:59
But it was worse than that.
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但更糟的是，
12:01
She was losing herself.
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她逐渐迷失了自己。
12:03
She was waking up in the middle
of the night, forgetting who she was.
of the night, forgetting who she was.
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有时她半夜醒来，
竟然不记得自己是谁。
竟然不记得自己是谁。
12:08
She was got because she was perceived
to have misused her privilege.
to have misused her privilege.
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人们把她揪出来，
是因为她肆无忌惮秀优越。
是因为她肆无忌惮秀优越。
12:12
And of course, that's a much better thing
to get people for than the things
to get people for than the things
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这比起其他的原因大概
好很多吧。
好很多吧。
12:15
we used to get people for,
like having children out of wedlock.
like having children out of wedlock.
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从前我们把人揪出来是因为未婚先孕。
12:18
But the phrase "misuse of privilege"
is becoming a free pass
is becoming a free pass
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但“秀优越” 一词已经成了一张通用票，
12:21
to tear apart pretty much
anybody we choose to.
anybody we choose to.
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用来打压任何一个我们
想打压的人。
想打压的人。
12:25
It's becoming a devalued term,
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这词已变得毫无价值，
12:27
and it's making us lose
our capacity for empathy
our capacity for empathy
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让我们失去同情的能力，
12:30
and for distinguishing between serious
and unserious transgressions.
and unserious transgressions.
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失去区分严重过错
和无心之失的能力。
和无心之失的能力。
12:36
Justine had 170 Twitter followers,
and so to make it work,
and so to make it work,
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贾丝婷的推特粉丝只有170名,
因此，想让大家点赞，
因此，想让大家点赞，
12:39
she had to be fictionalized.
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她得编个精彩的故事。
12:41
Word got around that she was the daughter
the mining billionaire Desmond Sacco.
the mining billionaire Desmond Sacco.
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有传言说她是矿业大亨
德斯蒙德·萨科的女儿。
德斯蒙德·萨科的女儿。
12:46
[Let us not be fooled by #JustineSacco
her father is a SA mining billionaire.
her father is a SA mining billionaire.
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[别让#贾丝婷·萨科给耍了，
她老爸是SA矿业的亿万富翁。
她老爸是SA矿业的亿万富翁。
12:50
She's not sorry.
And neither is her father.]
And neither is her father.]
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她不会后悔。
她老爸也不会.]
她老爸也不会.]
12:52
I thought that was true about Justine,
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我也以为贾丝婷真是富家女。
12:54
until I met her at a bar, and I asked her
about her billionaire father,
about her billionaire father,
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直到我在酒吧同她见面，
问她富翁爸爸的事儿，
问她富翁爸爸的事儿，
12:57
and she said, "My father sells carpets."
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她说：“我爸是卖地毯的。”
12:59
And I think back on
the early days of Twitter,
the early days of Twitter,
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我回想起推特刚上线的时候，
13:01
when people would admit
shameful secrets about themselves,
shameful secrets about themselves,
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那时人们还会随意爆一些自己的丑事，
13:04
and other people would say,
"Oh my God, I'm exactly the same."
"Oh my God, I'm exactly the same."
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其他人就会说，
“天啊，我跟你一样。”
“天啊，我跟你一样。”
13:07
These days, the hunt is on
for people's shameful secrets.
for people's shameful secrets.
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现在呢，人人都在抓别人的丑事。
13:11
You can lead a good, ethical life,
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你本来生活无忧无虑，
13:13
but some bad phraseology in a Tweet
can overwhelm it all,
can overwhelm it all,
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但若在推文中说错了只言片语，
一切就都完了，
一切就都完了，
13:18
become a clue to your secret inner evil.
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人们恨不得将你打入十八层地狱。
13:21
Maybe there's two types
of people in the world:
of people in the world:
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也许这世界有两种人：
13:24
those people who favor
humans over ideology,
humans over ideology,
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一种人相信人性高于意识形态，
13:27
and those people who favor
ideology over humans.
ideology over humans.
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一种人相信意识形态高于人性。
13:31
I favor humans over ideology,
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我属于前者，
13:33
but right now, the ideologues are winning,
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但眼下，后者正占据上风，
13:36
and they're creating a stage
for constant artificial high dramas
for constant artificial high dramas
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这些人正在搭建一个舞台，
不停上演一出大戏，
不停上演一出大戏，
13:41
where everybody's either
a magnificent hero
a magnificent hero
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戏里的人不是威猛英雄，
13:43
or a sickening villain,
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就是猥琐坏人，
13:45
even though we know that's not true
about our fellow humans.
about our fellow humans.
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即使大家都明白其实人不是这样的。
13:48
What's true is that
we are clever and stupid;
we are clever and stupid;
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真实的现实是
我们既聪明又愚蠢：
我们既聪明又愚蠢：
13:52
what's true is that we're grey areas.
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真实的现实是
我们都处于灰色地带。
我们都处于灰色地带。
13:55
The great thing about social media
was how it gave a voice
was how it gave a voice
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社交媒体的好处是
它能为无处发声的人
它能为无处发声的人
13:58
to voiceless people,
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提供一个发言的平台，
13:59
but we're now creating
a surveillance society,
a surveillance society,
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而现在呢，我们搞出了个间谍社会，
14:02
where the smartest way to survive
is to go back to being voiceless.
is to go back to being voiceless.
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要想生存就得噤若寒蝉。
14:07
Let's not do that.
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让我们改变这种局面吧。
14:08
Thank you.
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谢谢大家。
14:10
(Applause)
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（掌声)
14:21
Bruno Giussani: Thank you, Jon.
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布鲁诺·吉萨尼: 谢谢你，乔恩。
14:22
Jon Ronson: Thanks, Bruno.
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乔恩·朗森：谢谢你，布鲁诺。
14:24
BG: Don't go away.
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BG：请先别走。
14:26
What strikes me about Justine's story
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贾丝婷的故事最触动我的是
14:28
is also the fact that if you
Google her name today,
Google her name today,
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你如今若在谷歌去搜她的名字，
14:31
this story covers the first
100 pages of Google results --
100 pages of Google results --
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搜索结果的开头100页都是
说她这个故事的——
说她这个故事的——
14:33
there is nothing else about her.
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没有任何其他关于她的信息。
14:36
In your book, you mention another story
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你的书还提到了另一个故事，
14:38
of another victim who actually got
taken on by a reputation management firm,
taken on by a reputation management firm,
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一名受害者找到了一家名誉管理公司，
14:43
and by creating blogs and posting nice,
innocuous stories about her love for cats
innocuous stories about her love for cats
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这家公司帮她打造博文，
上传了很多暖心的文章，关于她如何爱猫，
上传了很多暖心的文章，关于她如何爱猫，
14:48
and holidays and stuff,
managed to get the story
managed to get the story
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如何度假等等，
成功地把原来的故事
成功地把原来的故事
14:51
off the first couple pages of Google
results, but it didn't last long.
results, but it didn't last long.
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挤出了谷歌搜索结果的前几页，
不过好景不长。
不过好景不长。
14:55
A couple of weeks later, they started
creeping back up to the top result.
creeping back up to the top result.
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几星期后，旧故事又
重新回到了搜索结果前列。
重新回到了搜索结果前列。
15:00
Is this a totally lost battle?
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这是不是意味着我们彻底没戏了？
15:02
Jon Ronson: You know, I think
the very best thing we can do,
the very best thing we can do,
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JR: 我认为，我们现在能做的，
15:05
if you see a kind of unfair
or an ambiguous shaming,
or an ambiguous shaming,
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就是一旦发现有人在信口开河地乱喷，
15:09
is to speak up, because I think
the worst thing that happened to Justine
the worst thing that happened to Justine
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就应该大声指出来，因为我认为
对贾丝婷来说最不幸的是
对贾丝婷来说最不幸的是
15:13
was that nobody supported her --
like, everyone was against her,
like, everyone was against her,
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没有人为她说话——
似乎每个人都跟她对着干，
似乎每个人都跟她对着干，
15:16
and that is profoundly traumatizing,
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这是最让人寒心的，
15:18
to be told by tens of thousands of people
that you need to get out.
that you need to get out.
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成千上万的人让你滚出去。
15:21
But if a shaming happens and there's
a babble of voices, like in a democracy,
a babble of voices, like in a democracy,
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如果语言攻击发生时，有不同的声音
在表达不同的观点，就像民主似的，
在表达不同的观点，就像民主似的，
15:26
where people are discussing it,
I think that's much less damaging.
I think that's much less damaging.
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人人都能发言讨论，
这样的话，杀伤力会小很多。
这样的话，杀伤力会小很多。
15:29
So I think that's the way forward,
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我们应该往这个方向努力，
15:30
but it's hard, because if you do
stand up for somebody,
stand up for somebody,
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当然这很难，因为你一旦站出来为某人说话，
15:33
it's incredibly unpleasant.
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下场可能会非常惨。
15:35
BG: So let's talk about your experience,
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BG: 那我们说说你的经验。
15:37
because you stood up by writing this book.
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你挺身而出，还写了这本书。
15:39
By the way, it's mandatory
reading for everybody, okay?
reading for everybody, okay?
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顺便说一句，大家都去读读这本书，好吗？
15:41
You stood up because the book
actually puts the spotlight on shamers.
actually puts the spotlight on shamers.
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为什么说你挺身而出，
因为你将聚光灯打在了那些喷子身上。
因为你将聚光灯打在了那些喷子身上。
15:46
And I assume you didn't only
have friendly reactions on Twitter.
have friendly reactions on Twitter.
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我觉得你在推特上没少挨骂吧。
15:49
JR: It didn't go down that well
with some people.
with some people.
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JR: 有些人确实不怎么喜欢我。
15:51
(Laughter)
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(笑声)
15:52
I mean, you don't want
to just concentrate --
to just concentrate --
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我是说，你不想仅仅关注——
15:55
because lots of people understood,
and were really nice about the book.
and were really nice about the book.
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3397
很多人都能明白，
都很接受这本书。
都很接受这本书。
15:58
But yeah, for 30 years I've been writing
stories about abuses of power,
stories about abuses of power,
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过去30年来我一直在写
关于滥用职权的报道，
关于滥用职权的报道，
16:01
and when I say the powerful people
over there in the military,
over there in the military,
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当我曝光军队里位高权重之人，
16:05
or in the pharmaceutical industry,
everybody applauds me.
everybody applauds me.
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或者医药行业里只手遮天之人，
人人都鼓掌叫好。
人人都鼓掌叫好。
16:07
As soon as I say, "We are the powerful
people abusing our power now,"
people abusing our power now,"
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直到我说：“你我也是有权之人，
我们也在滥用权力” 时，
我们也在滥用权力” 时，
16:12
I get people saying,
"Well you must be a racist too."
"Well you must be a racist too."
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有人就说：“你肯定也是个种族主义者。”
16:15
BG: So the other night --
yesterday -- we were at dinner,
yesterday -- we were at dinner,
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BG:昨晚我们一起吃饭时，
16:17
and there were two discussions going on.
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有两个讨论在同时进行。
16:19
On one side you were talking
with people around the table --
with people around the table --
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一个发生在你和同桌其他人之间——
16:22
and that was a nice,
constructive discussion.
constructive discussion.
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这个讨论气氛良好、很有建设性。
16:24
On the other, every time
you turned to your phone,
you turned to your phone,
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另一个讨论发生在你的手机里，
16:27
there is this deluge of insults.
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满眼污言秽语。
16:28
JR: Yeah. This happened last night.
We had like a TED dinner last night.
We had like a TED dinner last night.
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JR：没错。这事儿发生在
昨晚的TED 晚宴上，
昨晚的TED 晚宴上，
16:32
We were chatting and it was lovely
and nice, and I decided to check Twitter.
and nice, and I decided to check Twitter.
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我们在聊天，气氛融洽，
然后我就去查看推特。
然后我就去查看推特。
16:36
Somebody said, "You are
a white supremacist."
a white supremacist."
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有人说：“你是个白人至上者."
16:38
And then I went back and had
a nice conversation with somebody,
a nice conversation with somebody,
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然后我回到餐桌，
和某人愉快地交谈了一会儿。
和某人愉快地交谈了一会儿。
16:41
and then I went back to Twitter,
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再次打开推特，
16:42
somebody said my very existence
made the world a worse place.
made the world a worse place.
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又有人说我的存在
让这个世界变得更糟糕了。
让这个世界变得更糟糕了。
16:46
My friend Adam Curtis says
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我朋友亚当·柯蒂斯说
16:48
that maybe the Internet is like
a John Carpenter movie from the 1980s,
a John Carpenter movie from the 1980s,
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也许网络就像80年代约翰·卡彭特的电影，
16:52
when eventually everyone
will start screaming at each other
will start screaming at each other
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最终人人都声嘶力竭地开始对骂，
16:55
and shooting each other,
and then eventually everybody
and then eventually everybody
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掏出枪来开始对射，
直到最后人人
直到最后人人
16:58
would flee to somewhere safer,
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都逃去一个更安全的地方。
17:00
and I'm starting to think of that
as a really nice option.
as a really nice option.
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我在想那的确是一个不错的选择。
17:04
BG: Jon, thank you.
JR: Thank you, Bruno.
JR: Thank you, Bruno.
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BG: 乔恩，谢谢你。
JR: 谢谢你，布鲁诺。
JR: 谢谢你，布鲁诺。
17:06
(Applause)
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(掌声)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Jon Ronson - Writer, filmmakerJon Ronson is a writer and documentary filmmaker who dips into every flavor of madness, extremism and obsession.
Why you should listen
For his latest book, So You've Been Publicly Shamed, Jon Ronson spent three years traveling the world and talking to people who'd been subjected to high-profile public shamings. Whatever their transgression, the response was to be faced by an angry mob, as Ronson calls them "collective outrage circles" devoted to tearing down said person from any position of power. It does not, Ronson suggests gently, reflect so well on society as a whole.
In a previous book, The Psychopath Test, Ronson explored the unnerving world of psychopaths -- a group that includes both incarcerated killers and, one of his subjects insists, plenty of CEOs. In his books, films and articles, Ronson explores madness and obsession of all kinds, from the US military's experiments in psychic warfare to the obscene and hate-filled yet Christian rap of the Insane Clown Posse. He wrote a column for the Guardian, hosted an essay program on Radio 4 in the United Kingdom, and contributes to This American Life.
Jon Ronson | Speaker | TED.com