TEDxGhent
Erin Marie Saltman: How young people join violent extremist groups -- and how to stop them
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Terrorists and extremists aren't all naturally violent sociopaths -- they're deliberately recruited and radicalized in a process that doesn't fit into a neat pattern. Erin Marie Saltman discusses the push and pull factors that cause people to join extremist groups and explains innovative ways of preventing and countering radicalization.
Erin Marie Saltman - Policy researcher
Dr. Erin Marie Saltman manages Facebook's counterterrorism and counter-extremism policy work for Europe, the Middle East and Africa. Full bio
Dr. Erin Marie Saltman manages Facebook's counterterrorism and counter-extremism policy work for Europe, the Middle East and Africa. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
So in 2011, I altered my name
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so that I could participate
in Far Right youth camp in Hungary.
in Far Right youth camp in Hungary.
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I was doing a PhD looking at
youth political socialization --
youth political socialization --
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why young people were developing
political ideologies
political ideologies
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in a post-communist setting,
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and I saw that a lot
of young people I was talking to
of young people I was talking to
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were joining the Far Right,
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and this was astounding to me.
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So I wanted to enroll in this youth camp
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to get a better understanding
of why people were joining.
of why people were joining.
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So a colleague enrolled me,
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and my last name sounds
a little bit too Jewish.
a little bit too Jewish.
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So Erin got turned into Iréna,
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and Saltman got turned into Sós,
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which means "salty" in Hungarian.
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And in Hungarian,
your last name goes first,
your last name goes first,
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so my James Bond name
turned into "Salty Irena,"
turned into "Salty Irena,"
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which is not something
I would have naturally chosen for myself.
I would have naturally chosen for myself.
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But going to this camp,
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I was further shocked to realize
that it was actually really fun.
that it was actually really fun.
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They talked very little about politics.
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It was mostly learning how to ride horses,
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shooting a bow and arrow,
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live music at night,
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free food and alcohol,
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also some air-gun target practice
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using mainstream politicians'
faces as targets.
faces as targets.
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And this seemed like a very,
actually, friendly, inclusive group
actually, friendly, inclusive group
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until you started talking or mentioning
anything to do with the Roma population,
anything to do with the Roma population,
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Jewish people or immigrants,
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and then the discourse would become
very hate-based very quickly.
very hate-based very quickly.
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So it led me into my work now,
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where we pose the question,
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"Why do people join
violent extremist movements,
violent extremist movements,
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and how do we effectively
counter these processes?"
counter these processes?"
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In the aftermath of horrible
atrocities and attacks
atrocities and attacks
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in places like Belgium, France,
but all over the world,
but all over the world,
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sometimes it's easier for us to think,
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"Well, these must be sociopaths,
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these must be naturally
violent individuals.
violent individuals.
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They must have something wrong
with their upbringing."
with their upbringing."
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And what's really tragic
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is that oftentimes there's no one profile.
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Many people come
from educated backgrounds,
from educated backgrounds,
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different socioeconomic backgrounds,
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men and women, different ages,
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some with families, some single.
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So why? What is this allure?
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And this is what
I want to talk you through,
I want to talk you through,
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as well as how do we
challenge this in a modern era?
challenge this in a modern era?
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We do know, through research,
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that there are quite a number
of different things
of different things
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that affect somebody's
process of radicalization,
process of radicalization,
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and we categorize these
into push and pull factors.
into push and pull factors.
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And these are pretty much similar
for Far Right, neo-Nazi groups
for Far Right, neo-Nazi groups
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all the way to Islamist extremist
and terrorist groups.
and terrorist groups.
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And push factors are basically
what makes you vulnerable
what makes you vulnerable
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to a process of radicalization,
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to joining a violent extremist group.
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And these can be
a lot of different things,
a lot of different things,
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but roughly, a sense of alienation,
a sense of isolation,
a sense of isolation,
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questioning your own identity,
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but also feeling that your in-group
is under attack,
is under attack,
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and your in group might be based
on a nationality or an ethnicity
on a nationality or an ethnicity
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or a religion,
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and feeling that larger powers around you
are doing nothing to help.
are doing nothing to help.
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Now, push factors alone
do not make you a violent extremist,
do not make you a violent extremist,
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because if that were the fact,
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those same factors would go
towards a group like the Roma population,
towards a group like the Roma population,
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and they're not
a violently mobilized group.
a violently mobilized group.
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So we have to look at the pull factors.
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What are these violent
extremist organizations offering
extremist organizations offering
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that other groups are not offering?
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And actually, this is usually
very positive things,
very positive things,
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very seemingly empowering things,
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such as brotherhood and sisterhood
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and a sense of belonging,
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as well as giving somebody
a spiritual purpose,
a spiritual purpose,
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a divine purpose
to build a utopian society
to build a utopian society
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if their goals can be met,
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but also a sense of empowerment
and adventure.
and adventure.
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When we look
at foreign terrorist fighters,
at foreign terrorist fighters,
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we see young men
with the wind in their hair
with the wind in their hair
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out in the desert
and women going to join them
and women going to join them
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to have nuptials out in the sunset.
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It's very romantic, and you become a hero.
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For both men and women,
that's the propaganda being given.
that's the propaganda being given.
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So what extremist groups are very good at
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is taking a very complicated,
confusing, nuanced world
confusing, nuanced world
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and simplifying that world
into black and white,
into black and white,
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good and evil.
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And you become what is good,
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challenging what is evil.
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So I want to talk a little bit
about ISIS, Daesh,
about ISIS, Daesh,
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because they have been a game changer
in how we look at these processes,
in how we look at these processes,
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and through a lot of the material
and their tactics.
and their tactics.
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They're very much a modern movement.
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One of the aspects is the internet
and the usage of social media,
and the usage of social media,
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as we've all seen in headlines
tweeting and videos of beheadings.
tweeting and videos of beheadings.
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But the internet alone
does not radicalize you.
does not radicalize you.
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The internet is a tool.
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You don't go online shopping for shoes
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and accidentally become a jihadist.
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However, what the Internet
does do is it is a catalyst.
does do is it is a catalyst.
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It provides tools and scale and rapidity
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that doesn't exist elsewhere.
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And with ISIS, all of a sudden,
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this idea of a cloaked, dark figure
of a jihadist changed for us.
of a jihadist changed for us.
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All of a sudden,
we were in their kitchens.
we were in their kitchens.
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We saw what they were eating for dinner.
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They were tweeting.
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We had foreign terrorist fighters
tweeting in their own languages.
tweeting in their own languages.
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We had women going out there
talking about their wedding day,
talking about their wedding day,
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about the births of their children.
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We had gaming culture, all of a sudden,
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and references
to Grand Theft Auto being made.
to Grand Theft Auto being made.
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So all of a sudden, they were homey.
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They became human.
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And the problem
is that trying to counter it,
is that trying to counter it,
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lots of governments
and social media companies
and social media companies
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just tried to censor.
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How do we get rid of terrorist content?
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And it became a cat-and-mouse game
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where we would see accounts taken down
and they'd just come back up,
and they'd just come back up,
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and an arrogance around somebody
having a 25th account
having a 25th account
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and material that was
disseminated everywhere.
disseminated everywhere.
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But we also saw a dangerous trend --
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violent extremists know the rules
and regulations of social media, too.
and regulations of social media, too.
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So we would see a banal
conversation with a recruiter
conversation with a recruiter
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start on a mainstream platform,
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and at the point
at which that conversation
at which that conversation
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was going to become illegal,
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they would jump to a smaller,
less regulated,
less regulated,
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more encrypted platform.
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So all of a sudden, we couldn't
track where that conversation went.
track where that conversation went.
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So this is a problem with censorship,
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which is why we need to develop
alternatives to censorship.
alternatives to censorship.
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ISIS is also a game-changer
because it's state-building.
because it's state-building.
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It's not just recruiting combatants;
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it's trying to build a state.
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And what that means is all of a sudden,
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your recruitment model is much more broad.
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You're not just trying to get fighters --
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now you need architects, engineers,
accountants, hackers and women.
accountants, hackers and women.
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We've actually seen
a huge increase of women going
a huge increase of women going
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in the last 24, but especially 12 months.
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Some countries, one in four
of the people going over to join
of the people going over to join
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are now women.
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And so, this really changes
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who we're trying to counter
this process with.
this process with.
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Now, not all doom and gloom.
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So the rest I'd like to talk about
some of the positive things
some of the positive things
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and the new innovation in trying
to prevent and counter violent extremism.
to prevent and counter violent extremism.
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Preventing is very different
than countering,
than countering,
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and actually, you can think of it
in medical terms.
in medical terms.
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So preventative medicine is,
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how do we make it
so you are naturally resilient
so you are naturally resilient
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to this process of radicalization,
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whereas that is going to be different
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if somebody is already showing
a symptom or a sign
a symptom or a sign
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of belonging to a violent
extremist ideology.
extremist ideology.
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And so in preventative measures,
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we're talking more
about really broad groups of people
about really broad groups of people
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and exposure to ideas
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to make them resilient.
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Whereas it's very different
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if somebody is starting to question
and agree with certain things online,
and agree with certain things online,
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and it's also very different
if somebody already has a swastika tattoo
if somebody already has a swastika tattoo
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and is very much embedded within a group.
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How do you reach them?
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So I'd like to go through three examples
of each one of those levels
of each one of those levels
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and talk you through
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what some of the new ways
of engaging with people are becoming.
of engaging with people are becoming.
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One is "Extreme Dialogue,"
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and it's an educational program
that we helped develop.
that we helped develop.
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This one is from Canada,
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and it's meant to create dialogues
within a classroom setting,
within a classroom setting,
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using storytelling,
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because violent extremism
can be very hard to try to explain,
can be very hard to try to explain,
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especially to younger individuals.
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So we have a network of former extremists
and survivors of extremism
and survivors of extremism
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that tell their stories through video
and create question-giving to classrooms,
and create question-giving to classrooms,
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to start a conversation about the topic.
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These two examples show Christianne,
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who lost her son,
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who radicalized and died
fighting for ISIS,
fighting for ISIS,
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and Daniel is a former neo-Nazi
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who was an extremely violent neo-Nazi,
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and they pose questions about their lives
and where they're at and regret,
and where they're at and regret,
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and force a classroom
to have a dialogue around it.
to have a dialogue around it.
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Now, looking at that middle range
of individuals,
of individuals,
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actually, we need a lot
of civil society voices.
of civil society voices.
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How do you interact with people
that are looking for information online,
that are looking for information online,
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that are starting to toy with an ideology,
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that are doing those searching
identity questions?
identity questions?
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How do we provide alternatives for that?
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And that's when we combine
large groups of civil society voices
large groups of civil society voices
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with creatives, techies,
app developers, artists, comedians,
app developers, artists, comedians,
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and we can create really specified content
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and actually, online, disseminate it
to very strategic audiences.
to very strategic audiences.
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So one example would be
creating a satirical video
creating a satirical video
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which makes fun of Islamophobia,
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and targeting it
to 15- to 20-year-olds online
to 15- to 20-year-olds online
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that have an interest in white power music
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and live specifically in Manchester.
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We can use these marketing tools
to be very specific,
to be very specific,
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so that we know
when somebody's viewing, watching
when somebody's viewing, watching
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and engaging with that content,
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it's not just the average person,
it's not me or you --
it's not me or you --
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it's a very specific audience
that we are looking to engage with.
that we are looking to engage with.
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Even more downstream, we developed
a pilot program called "One to One,"
a pilot program called "One to One,"
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where we took former extremists
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and we had them reach out directly
to a group of labeled neofascists
to a group of labeled neofascists
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as well as Islamist extremists,
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and put direct messages through Facebook
Messenger into their inbox, saying,
Messenger into their inbox, saying,
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"Hey, I see where you're going.
I've been there.
I've been there.
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If you want to talk, I'm here."
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Now, we kind of expected death threats
from this sort of interaction.
from this sort of interaction.
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It's a little alarming to have
a former neo-Nazi say, "Hey, how are you?"
a former neo-Nazi say, "Hey, how are you?"
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But actually, we found
that around 60 percent
that around 60 percent
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of the people reached out to responded,
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and of that, around another 60 percent
had sustained engagement,
had sustained engagement,
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meaning that they were
having conversations
having conversations
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with the hardest people to reach
about what they were going through,
about what they were going through,
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planting seeds of doubt
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and giving them alternatives
for talking about these subjects,
for talking about these subjects,
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and that's really important.
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So what we're trying to do
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is actually bring
unlikely sectors to the table.
unlikely sectors to the table.
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We have amazing activists
all over the world,
all over the world,
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but oftentimes,
their messages are not strategic
their messages are not strategic
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or they don't actually reach
the audiences they want to reach.
the audiences they want to reach.
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So we work with networks
of former extremists.
of former extremists.
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We work with networks of young people
in different parts of the world.
in different parts of the world.
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And we work with them
to bring the tech sector to the table
to bring the tech sector to the table
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with artists and creatives
and marketing expertise
and marketing expertise
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so that we can actually have
a more robust and challenging of extremism
a more robust and challenging of extremism
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that works together.
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So I would say
that if you are in the audience
that if you are in the audience
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and you happen to be a graphic designer,
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a poet, a marketing expert,
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somebody that works in PR,
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a comedian --
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you might not think
that this is your sector,
that this is your sector,
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but actually, the skills
that you have right now
that you have right now
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might be exactly what is needed
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to help challenge extremism effectively.
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Thank you.
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(Applause)
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ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Erin Marie Saltman - Policy researcherDr. Erin Marie Saltman manages Facebook's counterterrorism and counter-extremism policy work for Europe, the Middle East and Africa.
Why you should listen
Dr. Erin Marie Saltman's background and expertise includes both Far Right and Islamist extremist processes of radicalization within a range of regional and socio-political contexts. Her research and publications have focused on the evolving nature of online extremism and terrorism, gender dynamics within violent extremist organizations and youth radicalization. Saltman has previously held senior research positions at Quilliam Foundation and the Institute for Strategic Dialogue, where she managed international programs. She has also worked with local activists, artists and techies to challenge violent extremism.
As Facebook's Counterterrorism Policy Manager based in London, Saltman regularly speaks with both governments and NGOs on issues related to how Facebook counters terrorism and violent extremism. She has also helped establish the Global Internet Forum to Counter Terrorism, bringing together leading industry partners (Facebook, Google, Microsoft and Twitter) with smaller startups and tech companies to create cross-platform knowledge sharing, technology solutions and research.
Saltman remains a Research Fellow at the Institute for Strategic Dialogue. She is a graduate of Columbia University (BA) and University College London (MA and PhD). View her articles and publications here.
Erin Marie Saltman | Speaker | TED.com