TEDxRC2
Jonas Gahr Støre: In defense of dialogue
Jonas Gahr Støre: Elkarrizketaren defentsan
Filmed:
Readability: 4.1
401,365 views
Politikan, badirudi intuizioaren aurkakoa dela indarkeria darabilten taldeekin, erradikal eta terroristekin, eta hauek defendatzen dituzten estatuekin elkarrizketak hasteak. Baina Jonas Gahr Støre, Norvegiako Atzerri ministroak eztabaida irekiaren aldeko hitzaldi sinesgarria eskeintzen du. Balore ezberdinak izan arren, elkarrizketa defendatzen du, guztion segurtasuna hobetzen saiatzeko.
Jonas Gahr Støre - Foreign Minister of Norway
Jonas Gahr Støre is the Norwegian Foreign Minister, charged with working for Norway's interests internationally. Full bio
Jonas Gahr Støre is the Norwegian Foreign Minister, charged with working for Norway's interests internationally. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:15
Amongst all the troubling deficits we struggle with today --
0
0
3000
Gaur egun aurrean ditugun gabezia kezkagarri guztietatik,
00:18
we think of financial and economic primarily --
1
3000
3000
nagusiki finantza eta ekonomian pentsatzen dugu,
00:21
the ones that concern me most
2
6000
2000
ni gehien kezkatzen nauena
00:23
is the deficit of political dialogue --
3
8000
2000
elkarrizketa politiko falta da ordea.
00:25
our ability to address modern conflicts
4
10000
2000
Gatazka modernoak
00:27
as they are,
5
12000
2000
direna bezala jorratzeko gaitasuna,
00:29
to go to the source of what they're all about
6
14000
3000
gatazkaren errora iristea
00:32
and to understand the key players
7
17000
2000
eta aktore nagusiak ulertzea
00:34
and to deal with them.
8
19000
2000
eta haiekin tratatzea.
00:36
We who are diplomats,
9
21000
2000
Gu, diplomatikook,
00:38
we are trained to deal with conflicts between states and issues between states.
10
23000
3000
estatuen arteko gatazka eta arazoak jorratzeko prestatuta gaude.
00:41
And I can tell you, our agenda is full.
11
26000
3000
Eta ziurtatzen dizuet, gure agenda beteta dago.
00:44
There is trade, there is disarmament,
12
29000
2000
Badago merkataritza, badago desarmea,
00:46
there is cross-border relations.
13
31000
3000
badaude mugaz gaindiko harremanak.
00:49
But the picture is changing,
14
34000
2000
Baina argazkia aldatzen ari da
00:51
and we are seeing that there are new key players
15
36000
3000
eta aktore nagusi berriak
00:54
coming onto the scene.
16
39000
2000
agertzen ari direla ikusten dugu.
00:56
We loosely call them "groups."
17
41000
3000
Orokorki, “taldeak” deitzen diegu.
00:59
They may represent social, religious,
18
44000
3000
Ordezkatu ditzakete errealitate sozialak, erlijiosoak,
01:02
political, economic, military realities.
19
47000
3000
politikoak, ekonomikoak, militarrak.
01:05
And we struggle with how to deal with them.
20
50000
2000
Eta hauekin nola tratatu eztabaidatzen dugu.
01:07
The rules of engagement:
21
52000
2000
Konpromezuaren arauak hauek dira:
01:09
how to talk, when to talk,
22
54000
2000
nola hitz egin, noiz hitz egin
01:11
and how to deal with them.
23
56000
3000
eta nola aritu beraiekin.
01:14
Let me show you a slide here
24
59000
2000
Utzidazue irudi bat erakusten
01:16
which illustrates the character of conflicts
25
61000
2000
irudikatzen duena 1946tik hona izan diren
01:18
since 1946 until today.
26
63000
2000
gatazken izaera.
01:20
You see the green
27
65000
2000
Begira, berdea
01:22
is a traditional interstate conflict,
28
67000
3000
estatuen arteko gatazka tradizionala da,
01:25
the ones we used to read about.
29
70000
3000
hauei buruz irakurtzen genuen.
01:28
The red is modern conflict,
30
73000
2000
Gorria gatazka modernoa da,
01:30
conflicts within states.
31
75000
3000
estatuen barneko gatazkak.
01:33
These are quite different,
32
78000
2000
Hauek nahiko ezberdinak dira,
01:35
and they are outside the grasp
33
80000
3000
eta diplomazia modernoaren
01:38
of modern diplomacy.
34
83000
3000
irismenteik kanpo geratzen dira.
01:41
And the core of these key actors
35
86000
2000
Eta aktore nagusi horien nukleoa
01:43
are groups
36
88000
2000
taldeak dira
01:45
who represent different interests
37
90000
2000
interes ezberdinen ordezkari direnak
01:47
inside countries.
38
92000
2000
estatuen barnean.
01:49
And the way they deal with their conflicts rapidly spreads to other countries.
39
94000
3000
Eta beren gatazkei aurre egiteko modua azkar zabaltzen da beste herrialde batzuetara.
01:52
So in a way, it is everybody's business.
40
97000
3000
Beraz, nolabai, guztion kontua da.
01:56
Another acknowledgment we've seen during these years,
41
101000
2000
Beste gauza bat
01:58
recent years,
42
103000
2000
azken urte hauetan ikusi duguna da,
02:00
is that very few
43
105000
2000
gatazka domestiko hauetatik
02:02
of these domestic interstate, intrastate conflicts
44
107000
4000
oso gutxi konpondu
02:06
can be solved militarily.
45
111000
2000
daitezkeela era militarrean.
02:08
They may have to be dealt with with military means,
46
113000
2000
Agian militarki jorratuz ekin behar zaie,
02:10
but they cannot be solved by military means.
47
115000
3000
baina ezin dira militarki konpondu.
02:13
They need political solutions.
48
118000
2000
Konponbide politikoak behar dituzte.
02:15
And we, therefore, have a problem,
49
120000
2000
Eta guk, horregatik, arazo bat dugu,
02:17
because they escape traditional diplomacy.
50
122000
3000
diplomazia tradizionaletik kanpo daudelako.
02:20
And we have among states
51
125000
2000
Eta guk estatuok,
02:22
a reluctance in dealing with them.
52
127000
2000
ez dugu gogorik izaten hauei ekiteko.
02:24
Plus, during the last decade,
53
129000
2000
Gainera, azken hamarkadan,
02:26
we've been in the mode
54
131000
2000
moda jarraitu dugu
02:28
where dealing with groups
55
133000
2000
zeina taldeekin hitz egitea
02:30
was conceptually and politically dangerous.
56
135000
3000
politikoki eta kontzeptualki arriskutsua zen.
02:33
After 9/11,
57
138000
2000
Irailaren 11 eta gero,
02:35
either you were with us or against us.
58
140000
2000
gurekin edo gure aurka egon zintezkeen.
02:37
It was black or white.
59
142000
2000
Txuria edo beltza zen.
02:39
And groups are very often
60
144000
2000
Eta taldeak askotan
02:41
immediately label terrorists.
61
146000
2000
terroristatzat hartzen ziren berehala.
02:43
And who would talk to terrorists?
62
148000
3000
Eta nork hitz egingo luke terroristekin?
02:46
The West, as I would see it,
63
151000
2000
Mendebaldea, nire ustez,
02:48
comes out of that decade weakened,
64
153000
2000
ahulduta irten da azken hamarkadatik,
02:50
because we didn't understand the group.
65
155000
3000
ez baikenuen taldea ulertu.
02:53
So we've spent more time
66
158000
2000
Denbora gehiago pasa dugu
02:55
on focusing on why we should not talk to others
67
160000
3000
besteekin zergatik ez genuen hitz egin behar nabarmentzen,
02:58
than finding out how we talk to others.
68
163000
2000
besteekin nola hitz egin bilatzen baino.
03:00
Now I'm not naive.
69
165000
3000
Hala ere, ez naiz naive edo inozoa.
03:03
You cannot talk to everybody all the time.
70
168000
2000
Ezin duzu beti guztiekin hitz egin.
03:05
And there are times you should walk.
71
170000
3000
Eta kasu batzuetan ospa egin behar zenuke.
03:08
And sometimes military intervention is necessary.
72
173000
2000
Eta batzuetan esku-hartze militarra beharrezkoa da.
03:10
I happen to believe that Libya was necessary
73
175000
3000
Adibidez Libian beharrezkoa izan zela uste dut,
03:13
and that military intervention in Afghanistan was also necessary.
74
178000
3000
eta Afganistanen ere interbentzio miliatarra beharrezkoa zela.
03:16
And my country relies on its security
75
181000
3000
Nere herrialdeak segurtasunean sinisten du
03:19
through military alliance, that's clear.
76
184000
3000
aliantza militarraren bidezkoa, hori argi dago.
03:22
But still we have a large deficit
77
187000
3000
Baina oraindik gabezia handia dugu
03:25
in dealing with and understanding modern conflict.
78
190000
2000
gatazka modernoen trataeran eta hauek ulertzeko moduan.
03:27
Let us turn to Afghanistan.
79
192000
3000
Ikus dezagun Afganistango kasua.
03:30
10 years after that military intervention,
80
195000
2000
Esku-hartze militar hartatik hamar urte pasa direnean,
03:32
that country is far from secure.
81
197000
2000
herrialdea seguru izatetik oso urrun dago.
03:34
The situation, to be honest, is very serious.
82
199000
3000
Egoera, zuzenak izateko, oso serioa da.
03:37
Now again, the military is necessary,
83
202000
3000
Beste behin, armada beharrezkoa da,
03:40
but the military is no problem-solver.
84
205000
3000
baina armada ez da arazo-konpontzailea.
03:43
When I first came to Afghanistan in 2005 as a foreign minister,
85
208000
3000
Kanpo ministro gisan 2005ean lehen aldiz Afganistanera joan nintzenean
03:46
I met the commander of ISAF,
86
211000
2000
ISAF-eko komandantearekin egon ninzten
03:48
the international troops.
87
213000
2000
nazioarteko tropak koordinatzen dituen taldea.
03:50
And he told me that, "This can be won militarily, minister.
88
215000
3000
Eta esan zidan: “Hau militarki irabazi daiteke, ministro jauna.
03:53
We just have to persevere."
89
218000
3000
Jarraitu besterik ez dugu egin behar”.
03:56
Now four COM ISAF's later,
90
221000
2000
Orain, ISAFeko lau komandante bertatik igaro ostean,
03:58
we hear a different message:
91
223000
2000
mezu ezberdin bat entzuten dugu:
04:00
"This cannot be won militarily.
92
225000
2000
“Hau ezin da militarki irabazi.
04:02
We need military presence,
93
227000
2000
Presentzia militarra behar dugu,
04:04
but we need to move to politics.
94
229000
2000
baina politikara pasa behar dugu.
04:06
We can only solve this through a political solution.
95
231000
3000
Konponbidea politikaren bidez bakarrik lor dezakegu.
04:09
And it is not us who will solve it;
96
234000
3000
Eta ez gara gu izango hau konponduko dugunak;
04:12
Afghans have to solve it."
97
237000
2000
afganiarrek konpondu behar dute".
04:14
But then they need a different political process
98
239000
2000
Baina orduan beste prozesu politiko bat behar dute
04:16
than the one they were given in 2001, 2002.
99
241000
4000
2001 eta 2002an jorratutako beste prozesu ezberdin bat.
04:20
They need an inclusive process
100
245000
3000
Prozesu inklusibo bat behar dute,
04:23
where the real fabric of this very complicated society
101
248000
3000
non gizarte konplikatu honen benetako egiturak
04:26
can deal with their issues.
102
251000
2000
haien arazoei aurre egingo dien.
04:28
Everybody seems to agree with that.
103
253000
2000
Denek honekin ados dirudite.
04:30
It was very controversial to say three, four, five years ago.
104
255000
3000
Duela hiru, lau, bost urte hau esatea oso eztabaidagarria zen.
04:33
Now everybody agrees.
105
258000
2000
Orain denak ados daude.
04:35
But now, as we prepare to talk,
106
260000
3000
Baina orain, hitz egiteko prestatu garenean,
04:38
we understand how little we know.
107
263000
2000
konturatu gara ze gutxi dakigun.
04:40
Because we didn't talk.
108
265000
2000
Bere garaian ez baikenuen hitz egin.
04:42
We didn't grasp what was going on.
109
267000
3000
Ez genuen jakin gertatzen zena ulertzen.
04:45
The International Committee of the Red Cross, the ICRC,
110
270000
3000
Gurutze Gorriaren Nazioarteko Batzordeak, ICRCak,
04:48
is talking to everyone,
111
273000
2000
denekin hitz egiten du,
04:50
and it is doing so because it is neutral.
112
275000
3000
eta hau egiten du neutrala delako.
04:53
And that's one reason why
113
278000
2000
Arrazoi honengatik, besteak beste,
04:55
that organization probably
114
280000
2000
erakunde hau da, seguraski,
04:57
is the best informed key player
115
282000
2000
ongien informatuta dagoen aktorea da,
04:59
to understand modern conflict --
116
284000
2000
gatazka modernoa ulertzeko.
05:01
because they talk.
117
286000
2000
Hitz egiten dutelako.
05:03
My point is that you don't have to be neutral to talk.
118
288000
4000
Nire jarrera da ez duzula neutrala izan behar hitz egiteko.
05:07
And you don't have to agree
119
292000
2000
Eta ez duzu ados egon behar
05:09
when you sit down with the other side.
120
294000
2000
beste aldekoarekin esertzen zarenean.
05:11
And you can always walk.
121
296000
3000
Eta beti da posible moztea.
05:14
But if you don't talk,
122
299000
2000
Baina, hitz egin ezean,
05:16
you can't engage the other side.
123
301000
2000
ezin da beste aldearekin elkar ulertu.
05:18
And the other side which you're going to engage
124
303000
2000
Eta elkar ulertu behar duzun alde horrekin
05:20
is the one with whom you profoundly disagree.
125
305000
3000
izango duzu, hain zuzen ere ,desadostasunik sakonena.
05:23
Prime Minister Rabin said when he engaged the Oslo process,
126
308000
3000
Rabin Lehen Ministroak, Osloko Akordioak sinatu zituenean, esan zuen:
05:26
"You don't make peace with your friends,
127
311000
2000
“Ez dugu bakea lagunekin egiten,
05:28
you make peace with your enemies."
128
313000
2000
etsaiekin egiten da bakea”.
05:30
It's hard, but it is necessary.
129
315000
3000
Zaila da, baina beharrezkoa.
05:33
Let me go one step further.
130
318000
2000
Utzidazue urrutiago joaten.
05:35
This is Tahrir Square.
131
320000
2000
Hau Tahrir plaza da.
05:37
There's a revolution going on.
132
322000
2000
Iraultza martxan da.
05:39
The Arab Spring is heading into fall
133
324000
2000
Arabiar Udaberria udazkenerantz bideratu da
05:41
and is moving into winter.
134
326000
2000
eta negurantz doa.
05:43
It will last for a long, long time.
135
328000
3000
Denbora asko, asko iraungo du.
05:46
And who knows what it will be called in the end.
136
331000
3000
Eta nork daki amaierari nola deituko zaion.
05:49
That's not the point.
137
334000
2000
Ez da hori garrantzitsuena.
05:51
The point is that we are probably seeing,
138
336000
3000
Inportanteena da, ziurrenik ikusten ari garela
05:54
for the first time in the history of the Arab world,
139
339000
2000
Arabiar munduaren historian lehen aldiz,
05:56
a revolution bottom-up --
140
341000
2000
behetik gora egindako iraultza bat,
05:58
people's revolution.
141
343000
2000
herriaren iraultza.
06:00
Social groups are taking to the streets.
142
345000
3000
Gizarte-taldeak kaleak hartzen ari dira.
06:03
And we find out in the West
143
348000
2000
Eta Mendebaldean ohartzen gara
06:05
that we know very little about what's happening.
144
350000
3000
oso gutxi dakigula gertatzen ari denaz.
06:08
Because we never talk to the people in these countries.
145
353000
4000
Ez baitugu inoiz herrialde hauetako herritarrekin hitz egiten.
06:12
Most governments followed
146
357000
2000
Gobernu gehienek jarraitu egin zituzte
06:14
the dictate of the authoritarian leaders
147
359000
2000
lider autoritarioen aginduak
06:16
to stay away from these different groups,
148
361000
2000
talde hauetatik urrun mantentzeko agindua jasoz,
06:18
because they were terrorists.
149
363000
4000
terroristak zirelako.
06:22
So now that they are emerging in the street
150
367000
2000
Orain, kalera irteten ari direnean
06:24
and we salute the democratic revolution,
151
369000
3000
eta iraultza demokratikoa txalotzen dugunean,
06:27
we find out how little we know.
152
372000
2000
konturatzen gara oso gutxi dakigula beraiei buruz.
06:29
Right now, the discussion goes,
153
374000
2000
Momentu honetan, eztabaidak jarraitzen du:
06:31
"Should we talk to the Muslim Brotherhood?
154
376000
3000
“Hitz egin behar al genuke Anaia Musulmanekin?
06:34
Should we talk to Hamas?
155
379000
2000
Hitz egin behar al genuke Hamasekin?
06:36
If we talk to them, we may legitimize them."
156
381000
3000
Hitz egiten badugu, baliteke guk haiek legitimatzea”.
06:39
I think that is wrong.
157
384000
2000
Uste dut okerra dela.
06:41
If you talk in the right way, you make it very clear
158
386000
2000
Behar den moduan hitz egiten bada, argi uzten da
06:43
that talking is not agreeing.
159
388000
3000
hitz egitea ez dela ados egotea.
06:46
And how can we tell the Muslim Brotherhood,
160
391000
2000
Eta, nola esan Anaia Musulmanei,
06:48
as we should,
161
393000
2000
esan behar diegun bezala,
06:50
that they must respect minority rights,
162
395000
4000
gutxiengoen eskubideak errespetatu behar dituztela,
06:54
if we don't accept majority rights?
163
399000
3000
guk ez baditugu gehiengoen eskubideak errespetatzen?
06:57
Because they may turn out to be a majority.
164
402000
3000
Gehiengoa izatera pasa baitaitezke.
07:00
How can we escape [having] a double-standard,
165
405000
3000
Nola libra gaitezke bi aurpegiko jarrera horretarik,
07:03
if we at the same time preach democracy
166
408000
3000
demokrazia predikatzen dugun bitartean
07:06
and at the same time
167
411000
2000
eta aldi berean
07:08
don't want to deal with the groups that are representative?
168
413000
2000
ordezkariak diren taldeekin tratatu nahi ez badugu?
07:10
How will we ever be interlocutors?
169
415000
3000
Nola izango gara noizbait interlokutore?
07:13
Now my diplomats are instructed
170
418000
2000
Nire diplomatikoak hezita daude
07:15
to talk to all these groups.
171
420000
2000
talde hauekin hitz egiteko hezten dira.
07:17
But talking can be done in different ways.
172
422000
3000
Baina hainbat modutan hitz egin daiteke.
07:20
We make a distinction between talking from a diplomatic level
173
425000
3000
Bereiztu egiten ditugu maila diplomatikoan hitz egitea
07:23
and talking at the political level.
174
428000
3000
eta hitz egitea maila politikoan.
07:26
Now talking can be accompanied with aid or not with aid.
175
431000
3000
Hitz egiteak laguntza behar izan dezake edo ez.
07:29
Talking can be accompanied with inclusion or not inclusion.
176
434000
3000
Hitz egiteak inklusioa ekar dezke edo ez.
07:32
There's a big array
177
437000
2000
Modu asko daude
07:34
of the ways of dealing with this.
178
439000
2000
gaia jorratzeko..
07:36
So if we refuse
179
441000
2000
Beraz, baztertu egiten badugu
07:38
to talk to these new groups
180
443000
3000
talde berri hauekin hitz egitea
07:41
that are going to be dominating the news in years to come,
181
446000
3000
albistegietan gailendu egingo direnak datozen urteetan,
07:44
we will further radicalization,
182
449000
2000
erradikalizazioa sustatuko dugu,
07:46
I believe.
183
451000
2000
hori da nik uste dudana.
07:48
We will make the road from violent activities into politics
184
453000
3000
Beraien indarkeria ekintzetatik politikara egin behar duten bidea
07:51
harder to travel.
185
456000
2000
zailagoa egingo dugu.
07:53
And if we cannot demonstrate to these groups
186
458000
3000
Eta ezin badiegu talde hauei erakutsi
07:56
that if you move towards democracy,
187
461000
2000
demokraziarantz aurrera egiten baduzu,
07:58
if you move towards taking part
188
463000
3000
parte hartzerantz mugitzen bazara
08:01
in civilized and normal standards among states,
189
466000
3000
estatuen arteko era zibilizatu eta normalean
08:04
there are some rewards on the other side.
190
469000
3000
beste aldean badaudela sariak.
08:07
The paradox here
191
472000
2000
Hemen paradoxa da
08:09
is that the last decade probably was a lost decade
192
474000
3000
pasa den hamarkada, seguraski, hamarkada galdua izan dela
08:12
for making progress on this.
193
477000
2000
alor honetan aurre egiteko.
08:14
And the paradox is that the decade before the last decade was so promising --
194
479000
4000
Eta paradoxa da aurreko hamarkadaren aurrekoak etorkizun handikoa zirudiela,
08:18
and for one reason primarily.
195
483000
3000
eta arrazoi nagusi batengatik gehienbat.
08:21
And the reason is what happened in South Africa:
196
486000
2000
Eta arrazoia da Hegoafrikan gertatu zena:
08:23
Nelson Mandela.
197
488000
2000
Nelson Mandela.
08:25
When Mandela came out of prison
198
490000
2000
Mandela kartzelatik irten zenean
08:27
after 27 years of captivity,
199
492000
3000
27 urteko kartzelaldia eta gero,
08:30
if he had told his people,
200
495000
2000
bere herriari esan izan balio:
08:32
"It's time to take up the arms,
201
497000
2000
“Armak hartzeko garaia da,
08:34
it's time to fight,"
202
499000
2000
borroka egiteko garaia”,
08:36
he would have been followed.
203
501000
2000
jarraitua izango zen.
08:38
And I think the international community
204
503000
2000
Eta uste dut nazioarteko komunitateak
08:40
would have said, "Fair enough.
205
505000
2000
esan zukeela: “Ongi da.
08:42
It's their right to fight."
206
507000
2000
Borroka egiteko eskubidea dute”.
08:44
Now as you know, Mandela didn't do that.
207
509000
3000
Jakingo duzuen bezala, Mandelak ez zuen hori egin.
08:47
In his memoirs, "Long Road to Freedom,"
208
512000
3000
"Bide Luzea Askatasunerantz" izeneko bere memorietan,
08:50
he wrote that he survived
209
515000
2000
idatzi zuen biziraun zuela
08:52
during those years of captivity
210
517000
3000
atxilotua egon zen urte horietan
08:55
because he always decided to look upon his oppressor
211
520000
3000
betidanik erabaki zuelako bere zapaltzailea hartzea
08:58
as also being a human being,
212
523000
3000
beste gizaki bat bezala,
09:01
also being a human being.
213
526000
3000
beste gizaki bat bezala hartzea.
09:04
So he engaged a political process of dialogue,
214
529000
5000
Horregatik, elkarrizketa politikoko prozesu bat abiatu zuen
09:09
not as a strategy of the weak,
215
534000
3000
ez ahularen estrategia gisa,
09:12
but as a strategy of the strong.
216
537000
3000
baizik eta boteretsuaren estrategia bezala.
09:15
And he engaged talking profoundly
217
540000
3000
Eta oso sakon mintzatu zen
09:18
by settling some of the most tricky issues
218
543000
2000
arazo delikatuenak jorratuz
09:20
through a truth and reconciliation process
219
545000
3000
egia eta berradiskidetasun prozesu baten bitartez
09:23
where people came and talked.
220
548000
2000
non jendea joaten zen eta hitz egin.
09:25
Now South African friends will know
221
550000
2000
Hegoafrikako lagunek jakingo dute
09:27
that was very painful.
222
552000
2000
oso mingarria izan zela hau.
09:29
So what can we learn from all of this?
223
554000
3000
Beraz, zer ikas dezakegu guzti honetatik?
09:32
Dialogue is not easy --
224
557000
2000
Elkarrizketa ez da erraza,
09:34
not between individuals, not between groups, not between governments --
225
559000
3000
ez pertsonen artean, ez taldeen artean, ez gobernuen artean,
09:37
but it is very necessary.
226
562000
3000
baina oso beharrezkoa da.
09:40
If we're going to deal with political conflict-solving of conflicts,
227
565000
4000
Gatazken konponbide politikoari ekiten badiogu,
09:44
if we're going to understand these new groups
228
569000
3000
talde berri hauek ulertuko badigutu
09:47
which are coming from bottom-up,
229
572000
3000
behetik gora sortzen ari direnak,
09:50
supported by technology, which is available to all,
230
575000
3000
guztion eskura dagoen teknologiaren laguntzaz
09:53
we diplomats cannot be sitting back in the banquets
231
578000
3000
guk, diplomatikook, ezin dugu eserita alferkerian ibili,
09:56
believing that we are doing interstate relations.
232
581000
3000
sinetsiz estatuen arteko harremanak jorratzen ari garela.
09:59
We have to connect
233
584000
2000
Konektatu egin behar dugu
10:01
with these profound changes.
234
586000
2000
aldaketa sakon hauekin.
10:03
And what is dialogue really about?
235
588000
2000
Eta zertan datza benetan elkarrizketak?
10:05
When I enter into dialogue,
236
590000
2000
Elkarrizketa batean sartzen naizenean,
10:07
I really hope that the other side
237
592000
2000
benetan espero dut beste aldeak
10:09
would pick up my points of view,
238
594000
2000
nire ikuspuntua ulertuko duela,
10:11
that I would impress upon them
239
596000
2000
besteari helaraziko dizkiodala
10:13
my opinions and my values.
240
598000
2000
nire iritzi eta balioak.
10:15
I cannot do that
241
600000
2000
Ezin dut horrelakorik egin
10:17
unless I send the signals that I will be open
242
602000
2000
ez baditut seinale batzuk bidaltzen esanaz irekita egongo naizela
10:19
to listen to the other side's signals.
243
604000
3000
beste aldekoaren seinaleak entzuteko.
10:22
We need a lot more training on how to do that
244
607000
3000
Askoz ere trebakuntza gehiago behar dugu hau nola egitean
10:25
and a lot more practice
245
610000
2000
eta askoz ere praktika gehiago
10:27
on how that can take problem-solving forward.
246
612000
3000
honek arazoen ebazpenean nola lagun dezaken.
10:30
We know from our personal experiences
247
615000
2000
Gure esperientzia propioengatik badakigu
10:32
that it's easy sometimes
248
617000
2000
batzuetan erraza dela
10:34
just to walk,
249
619000
2000
mahaitik altxatzea
10:36
and sometimes you may need to fight.
250
621000
3000
eta batzuetan borroka egin behar duzu.
10:39
And I wouldn't say that is the wrong thing in all circumstances.
251
624000
3000
Eta ez nuke esango egoera guztietan aukera okerra denik.
10:42
Sometimes you have to.
252
627000
2000
Batzuetan egin behar duzu.
10:44
But that strategy seldom takes you very far.
253
629000
3000
Baina estrategia horrek nekez eramango zaitu urrutira.
10:47
The alternative is a strategy
254
632000
2000
Alternatiba estrategia bat da
10:49
of engagement and principled dialogue.
255
634000
2000
elkarrizketan oinarritutakoa.
10:51
And I believe we need to strengthen this approach
256
636000
3000
Eta nere ustez ikuspuntu hau sendotu behar dugu
10:54
in modern diplomacy,
257
639000
2000
diplomazia modernoan,
10:56
not only between states,
258
641000
2000
ez soilik estatuen artean,
10:58
but also within states.
259
643000
2000
baizik eta estatuen barruan ere.
11:00
We are seeing some new signs.
260
645000
2000
Seinale berri batzuk ikusten ari gara.
11:02
We could never have done
261
647000
2000
Ezin izango genukeen inoiz egin
11:04
the convention against anti-personnel landmines
262
649000
2000
mina antipertsonalen aurkako batzarra
11:06
and the convention that is banning cluster munitions
263
651000
4000
eta 'cluster' munizioa debekatzen duen batzarra
11:10
unless we had done diplomacy differently,
264
655000
3000
diplomazia modu ezberdinean garatu izan ez bagenu,
11:13
by engaging with civil society.
265
658000
2000
gizarte zibilarekin engaiatu ez bagina.
11:15
All of a sudden,
266
660000
2000
Eta bat-batean,
11:17
NGOs were not only standing in the streets, crying their slogans,
267
662000
3000
GKEak ez ziren soilik kaleetan ari beren lemak oihukatzen,
11:20
but they were taking [them] into the negotiations,
268
665000
3000
baizik eta negoziazioetan sartzen hasi ziren,
11:23
partly because they represented the victims of these weapons.
269
668000
4000
neurri batean arma hauen biktimen ordezkari zirelako.
11:27
And they brought their knowledge.
270
672000
2000
Eta beraien ezagutza ekarri zuten.
11:29
And there was an interaction
271
674000
2000
Eta interakzio bat egon zen
11:31
between diplomacy and the power coming bottom-up.
272
676000
3000
diplomazia eta behetik sortutako boterearen artean.
11:34
This is perhaps a first element
273
679000
2000
Hori da, beharbada, lehen elementua
11:36
of a change.
274
681000
2000
aldaketa batean.
11:38
In the future, I believe,
275
683000
2000
Etorkizunean, sinisten dut,
11:40
we should draw examples from these different illustrations,
276
685000
3000
gertaera ezberdin hauek adibide bezala hartu behar genituzke
11:43
not to have diplomacy
277
688000
2000
ez dezagun izan diplomazia bat
11:45
which is disconnected from people and civil society.
278
690000
3000
herriarekin eta gizarte zibilarekin loturarik ez duena.
11:48
And we have to go also
279
693000
3000
Eta gainera, joan behar dugu
11:51
beyond traditional diplomacy
280
696000
2000
diplomazia tradizionaletik haratago
11:53
to the survival issue of our times,
281
698000
2000
egungo biziraupen arazoetaraino,
11:55
climate change.
282
700000
2000
aldaketa klimatikoraino.
11:57
How are we going to solve climate change through negotiations,
283
702000
3000
Nola konponduko dugu aldaketa klimatikoa negoziaketen bitartez,
12:00
unless we are able to make civil society and people,
284
705000
3000
gizarte zibila eta herria soluzioaren parte egiteko gai ez garen bitartean
12:03
not part of the problem, but part of the solution?
285
708000
3000
eta ez arazoaren parte bat, baizik eta soluzioarena?
12:06
It is going to demand an inclusive process of diplomacy
286
711000
3000
Eskatuko du diplomezia prozesu inklusibo bat
12:09
very different from the one we are practicing today
287
714000
3000
egun praktikatzen ari garenaren oso ezberdina
12:12
as we are heading to new rounds of difficult climate negotiations,
288
717000
3000
klimari buruzko negoziazio zailetarantz gerturatzen ari baikara,
12:15
but when we move toward something
289
720000
2000
baina norabait mugitzen ari garenean
12:17
which has to be much more
290
722000
2000
mobilizazio zabala
12:19
along a broad mobilization.
291
724000
2000
baino askoz gehiago izan behar luke.
12:21
It's crucial to understand, I believe,
292
726000
3000
Uste dut erabakigarria dela ulertzea,
12:24
because of technology and because of globalization,
293
729000
2000
teknologiarengatik eta globalizazioarengatik,
12:26
societies from bottom-up.
294
731000
2000
behetik gora eratzen diren gizarteak.
12:28
We as diplomats
295
733000
2000
Diplomatiko bezala, guk,
12:30
need to know the social capital
296
735000
2000
komunitateen gizarte kapitala
12:32
of communities.
297
737000
2000
ezagutu behar dugu.
12:34
What is it that makes people trust each other,
298
739000
3000
Zer da petsonen arteko konfidantza eragiten duena,
12:37
not only between states,
299
742000
2000
ez bakarrik estatuen artean,
12:39
but also within states?
300
744000
2000
baizik eta estatuen barruan ere?
12:41
What is the legitimacy of diplomacy,
301
746000
3000
Zein da diplomaziaren zilegitasuna
12:44
of the the solution we devise as diplomats
302
749000
3000
diplomatiko bezala burutzen ditugun ebazpenena,
12:47
if they cannot be reflected and understood
303
752000
3000
ez badira bertan islatzen eta ulertzen
12:50
by also these broader forces of societies
304
755000
3000
gizarteak eratzen dituzten indar ezberdin hauek
12:53
that we now very loosely call groups?
305
758000
4000
gaur egun era zabalean "talde" deitzen diegunak?
12:58
The good thing is that we are not powerless.
306
763000
2000
Alde ona da ez garela indarrik gabeak.
13:00
We have never had
307
765000
2000
Ez ditugu inoiz izan
13:02
as many means of communication,
308
767000
2000
hainbeste komunikatzeko modu,
13:04
means of being connected, means of reaching out,
309
769000
3000
konektatuta egoteko moduak, kanpora heltzeko moduak
13:07
means of including.
310
772000
2000
inklusibo izateko moduak.
13:09
The diplomatic toolbox
311
774000
2000
Diplomatikoaren herraminta kutxa
13:11
is actually full of different tools we can use
312
776000
3000
gure komunikazioa indartzeko erabil ditzakegun
13:14
to strengthen our communication.
313
779000
2000
herraminta ezberdinez beteta dago.
13:16
But the problem is that we are coming out of a decade
314
781000
3000
Baina arazoa da hamarkada batetik gatozela
13:19
where we had a fear of touching it.
315
784000
2000
hau ikutzeko beldurra izan duguna.
13:21
Now, I hope, in the coming years,
316
786000
3000
Orain, espero dut, datozen urteetan
13:24
that we are able to demonstrate through some concrete examples
317
789000
3000
zenbait adibide zehatzeko demostratzeko gai garela
13:27
that fear is receding
318
792000
3000
beldurra desagertzen ari dela
13:30
and that we can take courage
319
795000
2000
eta kuraia har dezakegula
13:32
from that alliance
320
797000
2000
elkartasun horretatik
13:34
with civil society
321
799000
2000
gizarte zibilarekin
13:36
in different countries
322
801000
2000
herrialde ezberdinetan
13:38
to support their problem-solving,
323
803000
2000
beren arazoen ebazpenetan laguntzeko,
13:40
among the Afghans,
324
805000
2000
afganiarren artean,
13:42
inside the Palestinian population,
325
807000
3000
palestinar biztanleriaren barruan,
13:45
between the peoples of Palestine and Israel.
326
810000
2000
Palestina eta Israelgo herritarren artean.
13:47
And as we try to understand this broad movement
327
812000
3000
Eta mugimendu zabal hau ulertzen saiatzen garen bitartean
13:50
across the Arab world,
328
815000
2000
arabiar munduan gertatzen ari dena
13:52
we are not powerless.
329
817000
2000
ez gara indargabeak.
13:54
We need to improve the necessary skills,
330
819000
2000
Beharrezko gaitasunak hobetu behar ditugu
13:56
and we need the courage to use them.
331
821000
2000
eta hauek erabiltzeko ausardia behar dugu.
13:58
In my country,
332
823000
2000
Nire herrialdean,
14:00
I have seen how the council of Islamist groups
333
825000
5000
ikusi dut talde islamisten batzordea
14:05
and Christian groups
334
830000
2000
eta talde kristauak
14:07
came together, not as a government initiative,
335
832000
3000
nola biltzen ziren, ez gobernuaren ekimen baten ondorioz,
14:10
but they came together on their own initiative
336
835000
2000
baizik eta beren iniziatibaz
14:12
to establish contact and dialogue
337
837000
2000
harremanak egin eta hitz egiteko
14:14
in times where things were pretty low-key tension.
338
839000
4000
egoera tentsio aldetik nahiko lasai zegoen garaian.
14:18
And when tension increased,
339
843000
2000
Eta tentsioa areagotu zenean,
14:20
they already had that dialogue,
340
845000
3000
elkarrizketa hori jada egina zutenez
14:23
and that was a strength to deal with different issues.
341
848000
3000
abantaila izan zen zenbait arazo konpontzeko garaian.
14:26
Our modern Western societies
342
851000
2000
Gure mendebaldeko gizarte modernoak
14:28
are more complex than before,
343
853000
2000
lehen baino konplexuagoak dira,
14:30
in this time of migration.
344
855000
2000
migrazo garai honetan.
14:32
How are we going to settle and build a bigger "We"
345
857000
3000
Nola ezarri eta eraikiko dugu "Gu" handiago bat
14:35
to deal with our issues
346
860000
2000
gure arazoak jorratzeko
14:37
if we don't improve our skills of communication?
347
862000
2000
gure komunikazio gaitasuna ez badugu hobetzen?
14:39
So there are many reasons,
348
864000
2000
Beraz, arrazoi asko dago,
14:41
and for all of these reasons,
349
866000
2000
eta arrazoi guzti horiengatik,
14:43
this is time and this is why we must talk.
350
868000
3000
hitz egiteko garaia da eta hitz egin behar genuke.
14:46
Thank you for your attention.
351
871000
2000
Eskerrik asko zuen arretagatik.
14:48
(Applause)
352
873000
4000
(Txaloak)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Jonas Gahr Støre - Foreign Minister of NorwayJonas Gahr Støre is the Norwegian Foreign Minister, charged with working for Norway's interests internationally.
Why you should listen
Norway sits on the edge of the strategically important North Atlantic and is blessed with oil, gas and marine resources. Its economy is open and busy, its social programs generous. As Minister of Foreign Affairs, Jonas Gahr Støre's job is to represent Norway in the international community and work to preserve the nation's peace and stability -- and to help create a modern multicultural society that welcomes immigrants and new traditions. This is not an abstract question after the shocking violence of 2011's terrorist attack on Norway.
Støre's approach to this task: We must talk.
He is a former executive director at the World Health Organization, and was also the Executive Chairman of the Norwegian think-tank ECON Analyse. Before becoming Foreign Minister he served as Secretary General of the Norwegian Red Cross from 2003 to 2005.
Jonas Gahr Støre | Speaker | TED.com