TEDxMidAtlantic
Charles Limb: Your brain on improv
Charles Limb: Vaš mozak o improvizaciji
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Glazbenik i istraživač Chrales Limb se pitao kako mozak funkcionira tijekom glazbene improvizacije -- stoga je stavio jazz glazbenike i repere u fMRI uređaj kako bi to saznao. Ono što su on i njegov tim otkrili ima duboke implikacije na naše razumijevanje kreativnosti u svim oblicima.
Charles Limb - Researcher
Charles Limb is a doctor and a musician who researches the way musical creativity works in the brain. Full bio
Charles Limb is a doctor and a musician who researches the way musical creativity works in the brain. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:15
So I am a surgeon who studies creativity,
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Ja sam kirurg koji proučava kreativnost,
00:18
and I have never had a patient tell me
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i nikad nisam imao pacijenta koji bi mi rekao,
00:21
that "I really want you to be creative during surgery,"
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"Doista želim da budete kreativni tijekom operacije."
00:24
and so I guess there's a little bit of irony to it.
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I vjerujem kako u tome ima malo ironije.
00:27
I will say though that, after having done surgery a lot,
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Ali reći ću vam, nakon toliko obavljenih operacija,
00:30
it's somewhat similar to playing a musical instrument.
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to vam je pomalo nalik sviranju glazbenog instrumenta.
00:32
And for me, this sort of deep and enduring fascination with sound
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A za mene, ta vrsta duboke i dugotrajne fascinacije sa zvukom
00:35
is what led me to both be a surgeon
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je ono što me navelo da budem i kirurg
00:37
and also to study the science of sound, particularly music.
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te da ujedno proučavam znanost zvuka, naročito glazbe.
00:39
And so I'm going to try to talk to you over the next few minutes
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I stoga ću vam kroz idućih nekoliko minuta pokušati ispričati
00:41
about my career
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o svojoj karijeri
00:43
in terms of how I'm able to actually try to study music
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u smislu kako zapravo pokušavam proučavati glazbu
00:45
and really try to grapple with all these questions
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i doista se uhvatiti u koštac s tim pitanjima
00:47
of how the brain is able to be creative.
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o tome kako mozak može biti kreativan.
00:50
I've done most of this work at Johns Hopkins University,
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Većinu tog posla sam napravio na Sveučilištu Johns Hopkins,
00:52
but also at the National Institute of Health where I was previously.
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ali ujedno i u Nacionalnom zdravstvenom institutu gdje sam prije bio.
00:54
I'm going to go over some science experiments
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Proći ću kroz neke znanstvene eksperimente
00:56
and try to cover three musical experiments.
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i pokušati obuhvatiti tri glazbena instrumenta.
00:58
I'm going to start off by playing a video for you.
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Počet ću sa prikazivanjem jednog videa.
01:00
And this video is a video of Keith Jarrett, who's a well-known jazz improviser
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A ovaj video je video Keitha Jarretta, koji je jako poznati jazz improvizator
01:03
and probably the most well-known, iconic example
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i vjerojatno najpoznatiji, ikonski primjer
01:06
of someone who takes improvisation to a really higher level.
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nekoga tko uzdiže improvizaciju na doista višu razinu.
01:08
And he'll improvise entire concerts
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I on će improvizirati čitave koncerte
01:10
off the top of his head,
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iz svoje glave,
01:12
and he'll never play it exactly the same way again,
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i nikad ih više neće svirati na potpuno isti način.
01:14
and so, as a form of intense creativity,
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I stoga, kao oblik intenzivne kreativnosti,
01:16
I think this is a great example.
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mislim da je ovo odličan primjer.
01:18
And so why don't we go and click the video.
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I stoga, zašto ne bismo uključili video.
01:21
(Music)
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(Glazba)
02:17
It's really a remarkable, awesome thing that happens there.
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Doista je izvanredna, nevjerojatna stvar ovo što se događa ovdje.
02:20
I've always -- just as a listener, as just a fan --
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Uvijek sam -- samo kao slušatelj, samo kao obožavatelj --
02:22
I listen to that, and I'm just astounded.
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slušao, i jednostavno sam zapanjen.
02:24
I think -- how can this possibly be?
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Razmišljam: kako je to moguće?
02:26
How can the brain generate that much information,
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Kako mozak može generirati toliko mnogo informacija,
02:28
that much music, spontaneously?
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toliko mnogo glazbe spontano?
02:30
And so I set out with this concept, scientifically,
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I tako sam krenuo s tim konceptom, znanstveno,
02:33
that artistic creativity, it's magical, but it's not magic,
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kako je umjetnička kreativnost, magična, ali nije to magija.
02:36
meaning that it's a product of the brain.
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Što znači da je proizvod mozga.
02:38
There's not too many brain-dead people creating art.
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Nema puno ljudi bez moždanih aktivnosti koji stvaraju umjetnost.
02:41
And so with this notion that artistic creativity
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I stoga s tom idejom kako je umjetnička kreativnost
02:43
is in fact a neurologic product,
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zapravo neurološki proizvod,
02:45
I took this thesis that we could study it
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uzeo sam tu tezu koju smo mogli proučavati
02:48
just like we study any other complex neurologic process.
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kao što možemo proučavati bilo koji drugi kompleksni neurološki proces.
02:51
And I think there's some sub-questions there that I put there.
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I mislim kako postoje neka podpitanja koja sam stavio tamo.
02:53
Is it truly possible to study creativity scientifically?
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Je li doista moguće proučavati kreativnost na znanstven način?
02:55
And I think that's a good question.
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I mislim kako je to dobro pitanje.
02:57
And I'll tell you that most scientific studies of music,
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I reći ću vam kako su najznanstvenija istraživanja glazbe,
03:00
they're very dense,
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vrlo neprozirna.
03:02
and when you actually go through them, it's very hard to recognize the music in it.
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I kada prolazite kroz njih, veoma je teško prepoznati glazbu u njima.
03:05
In fact, they seem to be very unmusical entirely
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U biti, čini se kao da su u potpunosti neglazbena
03:07
and to miss the whole point of the music.
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i da su promašila cijelu bit glazbe.
03:09
And so it brings the second question:
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I to dovodi do drugog pitanja:
03:11
Why should scientists study creativity?
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Zašto bi znanstvenici proučavali kreativnost?
03:13
Maybe we're not the right people to do it.
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Možda nismo prave osobe za to.
03:15
Well it may be,
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To je moguće,
03:17
but I will say that, from a scientific perspective --
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ali reći ću, iz znanstvene perspektive --
03:19
we talked a lot about innovation today --
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da smo danas puno pričali o inovativnosti --
03:21
the science of innovation,
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znanosti o inovativnosti,
03:23
how much we understand about how the brain is able to innovate
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koliko razumijemo o tome kako je mozak sposoban inovirati
03:25
is in its infancy,
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u ranom djetinjstvu.
03:27
and truly, we know very little about how we are able to be creative.
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Doista, znamo jako malo o tome kako biti kreativni.
03:30
And so I think that we're going to see
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I stoga mislim kako ćemo vidjeti
03:32
over the next 10, 20, 30 years
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kroz idućih 10, 20, 30 godina
03:34
a real science of creativity that's burgeoning and is going to flourish.
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istinsku znanost kreativnosti koja ekspanzivno raste i koja će procvjetati.
03:37
Because we now have new methods that can enable us
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Jer sada imamo nove metode koje nam omogućavaju
03:39
to take this process of something like this,
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da uzmemo neki proces poput ovog,
03:41
complex jazz improvisation, and study it rigorously.
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kompleksnu jazz improvizaciju, i rigorozno ju proučavamo.
03:43
And so it gets down to the brain.
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I stoga se svodi na mozak.
03:45
And so all of us have this remarkable brain,
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I svi mi imamo taj izvanredan mozak,
03:47
which is poorly understood to say the least.
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koji je slabo shvaćen, u najmanju ruku.
03:50
I think that neuroscientists
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Mislim kako neuroznanstvenici
03:52
have many more questions than answers,
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imaju puno više pitanja nego odgovora.
03:54
and I myself, I'm not going to give you many answers today,
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A ja vam neću danas dati mnogo odgovora,
03:56
just ask a lot of questions.
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već ću postaviti mnogo pitanja.
03:58
And fundamentally that's what I do in my lab.
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I to je, u osnovi, ono što ja radim u svom laboratoriju.
04:00
I ask questions about what is this brain doing to enable us to do this.
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Postavljam pitanja o tome što taj mozak radi a da nam omogućava da uradimo to.
04:02
This is the main method that I use. This is called functional MRI.
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To je glavna metoda koju koristim. Ovo je funkcionalni uređaj za magnetsku organizaciju.
04:05
If you've been in an MRI scanner, it's very much the same,
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Ukoliko ste bili na skeniranju u uređaju za magnetsku rezonanciju, prilično je isto,
04:08
but this one is outfitted in a special way
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samo što je ovaj opremljen na poseban način
04:10
to not just take pictures of your brain,
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ne samo da uzima slika vašeg mozga,
04:12
but to also take pictures of active areas of the brain.
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već da i uzima slike aktivnih područja u mozgu.
04:15
Now the way that's done is by the following.
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Način na koji se to radi, je slijedeći.
04:17
There's something called BOLD imaging,
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Postoji nešto što se zove BOLD prikaz,
04:19
which is Blood Oxygen Level Dependent imaging.
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što označava prikaz razine kisika u krvi.
04:21
Now when you're in an fMRI scanner,
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Kada ste u funkcionalnom uređaju za magnetsku rezonanciju,
04:23
you're in a big magnet
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vi ste u velikom magnetu
04:25
that's aligning your molecules in certain areas.
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koji poravnava vaše molekule u određenim područjima.
04:27
When an area of the brain is active, meaning a neural area is active,
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Kada je područje mozga aktivno, što znači kada je neuralno područje aktivno,
04:30
it gets blood flow shunted to that area.
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dobiva protok krvi koji je paralelno povezan s tim područjem.
04:33
That blood flow causes an increase
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Taj protok krvi uzrokuje povećanje
04:35
in local blood to that area
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lokalne krvi u to područje
04:37
with a deoxyhemoglobin change in concentration.
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sa promjenom u koncentraciji deoksihemoglobina.
04:40
Deoxyhemoglobin can be detected by MRI,
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Deoksihemoglobin se može detektirati pomoću uređaja za magnetsku rezonanciju,
04:42
whereas oxyhemoglobin can't.
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dok se oksihemoglobin ne može.
04:44
So through this method of inference --
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Kroz tu metodu zaključivanja -
04:46
and we're measuring blood flow, not neural activity --
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a mjerimo protok krvi, ne neuralnu aktivnost -
04:48
we say that an area of the brain that's getting more blood
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možemo reći da područje mozga koje dobiva više krvi
04:50
was active during a particular task,
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je bilo aktivno tijekom određenog zadatka.
04:52
and that's the crux of how fMRI works.
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A to je srž načina rada funkcionalnog uređaja za magnetsku rezonanciju.
04:54
And it's been used since the '90s
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I koristi se još od 90-ih
04:56
to study really complex processes.
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kako bi se proučavali doista kompleksni procesi.
04:59
Now I'm going to review a study that I did,
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Otkrit ću osvrt istraživanja koje sam proveo,
05:01
which was jazz in an fMRI scanner.
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a koje se odnosi na jazz u funkcionalnom uređaju za magnetsku rezonanciju.
05:03
And this was done with a colleague of mine, Alan Braun, at the NIH.
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A njega sam proveo s mojim kolegom, Alanom Braunom, u NIH-u.
05:05
This is a short video of how we did this project.
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Ovo je kratak video o tome kako smo napravili taj projekt.
05:08
(Video) Charles Limb: This is a plastic MIDI piano keyboard
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(Video) Chrales Limb: Ovo su plastične MIDI klavijature
05:10
that we use for the jazz experiments.
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koje koristimo kod jazz eksperimenata.
05:12
And it's a 35-key keyboard
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A to su klavijeture s 35 tipki
05:14
that is designed to fit both inside the scanner,
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koje su dizajnirane da stanu u skener,
05:16
be magnetically safe,
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da budu magnetski sigurne,
05:18
have minimal interference
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da proizvode minimalne smetnje
05:20
that would contribute to any artifact
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koje bi mogle doprinijeti bilo kakvom artefaktu
05:22
and have this cushion so that it can rest on the players' legs
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i koje imaju jastuk tako da mogu biti položene na noge osobe koja ih svira
05:25
while they're lying down in the scanner, playing on their back.
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kada ta osoba leži u skeneru, svirajući ih ležeći na leđima.
05:28
And it works like this -- this doesn't actually produce any sound.
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A rade na sljedeći način -- one ne produciraju zapravo nikakav zvuk.
05:31
It sends out what's called a MIDI signal --
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Šalju van ono što se naziva MIDI signal --
05:33
or a Musical Instrument Digital Interface --
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ili glazbeni instrument digitalno sučelje --
05:35
through these wires into the box and then the computer,
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kroz ove žice u kutiju a zatim u računalo,
05:38
which then trigger high-quality piano samples like this.
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koje zatim aktivira uzorke klavira visoke kvalitete poput ovog.
05:41
(Music)
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(Glazba)
05:47
(Music)
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(Glazba)
06:09
CL: Okay, so it works.
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CL: U redu, dakle radi.
06:11
And so through this piano keyboard,
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I kroz te klavijature,
06:13
we now have the means to take a musical process and study it.
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mi sada imamo mogućnosti preuzeti glazbeni proces i proučavati ga.
06:15
So what do you do now that you have this cool piano keyboard?
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Dakle, što radite sada kada imate te super klavijature?
06:18
You can't just sort of -- "It's great we've got this keyboard."
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Ne možete samo pomisliti -- "Super je što imamo te klavijature."
06:20
We actually have to come up with a scientific experiment.
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Mi, zapravo, moramo osmisliti znanstveni eksperiment.
06:22
And so the experiment really rests on the following:
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A eksperiment doista počiva na sljedećem.
06:26
What happens in the brain during something that's memorized and over-learned,
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Što se događa u mozgu tijekom nečeg što je memorizirano i naučeno više puta,
06:29
and what happens in the brain during something
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i što se događa u mozgu tijekom nečeg
06:31
that is spontaneously generated, or improvised,
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što je spontano generirano ili improvizirano,
06:33
in a way that's matched motorically
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na način da je motorički vezano
06:35
and in terms of lower-level sensory motor features?
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te u terminima osjetilnih motoričkih značajki niže razine?
06:38
And so, I have here what we call the "paradigms."
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I stoga, imamo ovdje ono što mi nazivamo paradigmama.
06:41
There's a scale paradigm, which is just playing a scale up and down, memorized.
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Postoji paradigma ljestvice, što je zapravo sviranje ljestvice gore, dolje, memorizirano.
06:44
And then there's improvising on a scale --
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A zatim, tu je je improvizacija na ljestvici --
06:46
quarter notes, metronome, right hand --
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četvrtinke, metronom, desna ruka --
06:48
scientifically very safe,
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znanstveno vrlo sigurno,
06:50
but musically really boring.
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ali glazbeno uistinu dosadno.
06:52
And then there's the bottom one, which is called the jazz paradigm.
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A zatim, tu je i posljednja, koju nazivamo jazz paradigma.
06:54
And so what we did was we brought professional jazz players to the NIH,
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Ono što smo učinili jest, da smo doveli profesionalne jazz glazbenike u NIH,
06:56
and we had them memorize this piece of music on the left, the lower-left --
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i dali smo im da memoriraju ovaj komad glazbe lijevo, lijevo dolje --
06:59
which is what you heard me playing --
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što je ono što sam ja svirao --
07:01
and then we had them improvise to the same exact chord changes.
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a zatim smo im dali da improviziraju na osnovi identičnih promjena akorda.
07:04
And if you can hit that lower-right sound icon,
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A ako možete kliknuti tu ikonu zvuka u donjem desnog uglu,
07:06
that's an example of what was recorded in the scanner.
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to je primjer što je snimljeno u skeneru.
07:08
(Music)
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(Glazba)
07:36
So in the end, it's not the most natural environment,
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Na kraju krajeva, nije najprirodnije okruženje,
07:38
but they're able to play real music.
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ali mogli su svirati pravu glazbu.
07:40
And I've listened to that solo 200 times,
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I slušao sam tu solo dionicu 200 puta,
07:42
and I still like it.
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i još uvijek mi se sviđa.
07:44
And the musicians, they were comfortable in the end.
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A glazbenici su se osjećali ugodno na kraju.
07:46
And so we first measured the number of notes.
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Prvo smo izmjerili broj nota.
07:48
Were they in fact just playing a lot more notes when they were improvising?
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Jesu li, zapravo, svirali puno više nota kada su improvizirali?
07:50
That was not what was going on.
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To nije bilo ono što se događalo.
07:52
And then we looked at the brain activity.
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Zatim smo gledali moždanu aktivnost.
07:54
I'm going to try to condense this for you.
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Pokušat ću sažeti to za vas.
07:56
These are contrast maps that are showing subtractions
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Ovo su kontrastne mape koje prikazuju oduzimanje
07:59
between what changes when you're improvising
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između promjena kada improvizirate
08:01
versus when you're doing something memorized.
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i kada radite nešto memorirano.
08:03
In red is an area that active in the prefrontal cortex,
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Crveno je područje koje je aktivno u prefrontalnom korteksu,
08:05
the frontal lobe of the brain,
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prednjem režnju mozga.
08:07
and in blue is this area that was deactivated.
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A plavo je područje koje je bilo deaktivirano.
08:09
And so we had this focal area called the medial prefrontal cortex
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I tako smo imali to žarišno područje zvano središnji prefrontalni korteks
08:11
that went way up in activity.
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kojem je aktivnost narasla.
08:13
We had this broad patch of area called the lateral prefrontal cortex
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Imali smo široki sloj područja zvan lateralni prefrontalni korteks
08:16
that went way down in activity, and I'll summarize that for you here.
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kojem je aktivnost pala, i sažet ću to za vas.
08:19
Now these are multifunctional areas of the brain.
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To su multifunkcionalna područja mozga.
08:21
As I like to say, these are not the "jazz areas" of the brain.
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Kao što volim reći, to nisu jazz područja mozga.
08:24
They do a whole host of things
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Rade mnogo stvari
08:26
that have to do with self-reflection,
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koje su povezane sa samo-refleksijom,
08:28
introspection, working memory and so forth.
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introspekcijom, radnom memorijom i tako dalje.
08:30
Really, consciousness is seated in the frontal lobe.
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Doista, svijest je locirana u frontalnom režnju.
08:33
But we have this combination
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Ali imamo i kombinaciju
08:35
of an area that's thought to be involved in self-monitoring, turning off,
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područja za koje se smatra da je uključeno u samo-nadgledanje, a koje se gasi,
08:38
and this area that's thought to be autobiographical,
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i područja za koje se smatra da je autobiografsko,
08:40
or self-expressive, turning on.
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ili samo-izražavajuće, a koje se pali.
08:42
And we think, at least in this preliminary --
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I mislimo, barem u ovom preliminarnom --
08:44
it's one study; it's probably wrong,
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To je jedno istraživanje. Vjerojatno je pogrešno.
08:46
but it's one study --
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Ali to je jedno istraživanje.
08:48
we think that at least a reasonable hypothesis
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Mislimo kako je barem razumna hipoteza
08:51
is that, to be creative,
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da, za kreativnost,
08:53
you have to have this weird dissociation in your frontal lobe.
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morate imati tu čudnu pregradu u vašem frontalnom režnju.
08:55
One area turns on, and a big area shuts off,
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Jedno područje se aktivira, a jedno veliko područje se ugasi,
08:57
so that you're not inhibited, so that you're willing to make mistakes,
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tako da niste inhibirani, tako da ste voljni raditi pogreške,
09:00
so that you're not constantly shutting down
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tako da neprestano ne gasite
09:02
all of these new generative impulses.
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sve te nove generativne impulse.
09:05
Now a lot of people know that music is not always a solo activity --
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Puno ljudi zna kako glazba nije uvijek samostalna aktivnost --
09:08
sometimes it's done communicatively.
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nekad je izvedena pomoću komunikacije.
09:10
And so the next question was:
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I stoga je sljedeće pitanje bilo:
09:12
What happens when musicians are trading back and forth,
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Što se događa kada glazbenici improviziraju naizmjence,
09:14
something called "trading fours,"
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nešto zvano improvizacijska četvorka,
09:16
which is something they do normally in a jazz experiment?
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što je nešto što oni normalno rade u jazz eksperimentu?
09:18
So this is a twelve-bar blues.
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Ovo je bluz sa skalom od dvanaest.
09:20
And I've broken it down into four-bar groups here,
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A ja sam ga razbio u grupe skala od po četiri ovdje,
09:22
so you would know how you would trade.
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kako biste znali kako ćete trgovati.
09:24
Now what we did was we brought a musician into the scanner -- same way --
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Ono što smo napravili jest da smo stavili glazbenika u skener -- na isti način --
09:26
had them memorize this melody
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oni su morali memorirati tu melodiju
09:28
and then had another musician out in the control room
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i zatim smo imali drugog glazbenika u kontrolnoj sobi
09:30
trading back and forth interactively.
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koji bi naizmjence interaktivno improvizirao.
09:33
So this is a musician, Mike Pope,
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Ovo je glazbenik, Mike Pope,
09:35
one of the world's best bassists and a fantastic piano player.
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jedan od najboljih svjetskih basista i fantastičan svirač klavira.
09:43
So he's now playing the piece
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Sada svira komad
09:45
that we just saw
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koji smo upravo vidjeli
09:47
just a little better than I wrote it.
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malo bolje nego što sam ga ja napisao.
09:49
(Video) CL: Mike, come on in. Mike Pope: May the force be with you.
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(Video) CL: Mike, uđi. (Čovjek: Neka sila bude s tobom.)
09:51
Nurse: Nothing's in your pockets, right Mike?
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Sestra: Ništa nemate u džepovima, je li točno Mike?
09:53
MP: Nope. Nothing's in my pockets. Nurse: Okay.
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Mike Pope: Ne. Nemam ništa u džepovima. (Sestra: U redu.)
10:05
CL: You have to have the right attitude to agree to it.
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CL: Morate imati pravi stav da se složite s ovime.
10:07
(Laughter)
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(Smijeh)
10:09
It's kind of fun actually.
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Zapravo je, na neki način, zabavno.
10:11
And so now we're playing back and forth.
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I tako sada sviramo naizmjence.
10:14
He's in there. You can see his legs up there.
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On je tamo unutra. Možete vidjeti njegove noge tamo gore.
10:18
And then I'm in the control room here, playing back and forth.
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A ja sam ovdje u kontrolnoj sobi, svirajući naizmjence.
10:21
(Music)
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(Glazba)
10:33
(Video) Mike Pope: This is a pretty good representation
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(Video) Mike Pope: Ovo je prilično dobar prikaz
10:36
of what it's like.
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onoga čemu je to nalik.
10:38
And it's good that it's not too quick.
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I dobro je što nije prebrzo.
10:40
The fact that we do it over and over again
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Činjenica da možemo to raditi opet i isponova
10:42
lets you acclimate to your surroundings.
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dozvoljava vam da se aklimatizirate na vaše okruženje.
10:46
So the hardest thing for me was the kinesthetic thing,
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Najteža stvar za mene je bila kinestetička stvar,
10:49
of looking at my hands
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gledajući svoje ruke
10:51
through two mirrors,
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kroz dva ogledala,
10:53
laying on my back
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ležeći na leđima
10:55
and not able to move at all except for my hand.
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i nemogućnosti micanja ičega osim svojih ruku.
10:57
That was challenging.
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To je bilo izazovno.
10:59
But again,
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Ali opet,
11:01
there were moments, for sure,
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postojali su trenuci, sigurno,
11:04
there were moments
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postojali su trenuci
11:06
of real, honest-to-God musical interplay, for sure.
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istinskog, najiskrenijeg uzajamnog sviranja, sigurno.
11:10
CL: At this point, I'll take a few moments.
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CL: U ovoj točki, uzet ću par trenutaka.
11:12
And so what you're seeing here --
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Ono što vidite ovdje --
11:14
and I'm doing a cardinal sin in science,
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A ja sam počinio glavni grijeh u znanosti,
11:16
which is to show you preliminary data.
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što vam pokazujem preliminarne podatke.
11:18
This is one subject's data.
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Ovo su podaci jednog subjekta.
11:20
This is, in fact, Mike Pope's data.
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Ovo su, zapravo, podaci Mike Popea.
11:22
So what am I showing you here?
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Što vam ja pokazujem ovdje?
11:24
When he was trading fours with me, improvising versus memorized,
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Kada smo naizmjence improvizirali, improvizacija nasuprot memoriranju,
11:27
his language areas lit up, his Broca's area,
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njegovo područje za jezik je zasvjetlilo, njegovo Broca područje,
11:30
which is inferior frontal gyrus on the left.
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koje čine inferiorne frontalne vijuge na lijevoj strani.
11:32
He actually had it also homologous on the right.
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Imao je odgovarajuće reakcije i s desne strane.
11:34
This is an area thought to be involved in expressive communication.
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Ovo je područje za koje se smatra da je zaduženo za ekspresivnu komunikaciju.
11:37
This whole notion that music is a language --
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Ta cijela ideja da je glazba jezik,
11:39
well maybe there's a neurologic basis to it in fact after all,
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možda, u biti, postoji neurološka baza za to naposljetku,
11:42
and we can see it when two musicians are having a musical conversation.
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i možemo to vidjeti kada dvoje glazbenika vode glazbeni razgovor.
11:45
And so we've done this actually on eight subjects now,
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I zapravo smo to napravili na osam subjekata do sada,
11:47
and we're just getting all the data together,
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i sada sakupljamo sve podatke zajedno.
11:49
so hopefully we'll have something to say about it meaningfully.
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I nadam se kako ćemo imati nešto smisleno za reći.
11:51
Now when I think about improvisation and the language, well what's next?
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Kada razmišljam o improvizaciji i jeziku, pa, što je sljedeće?
11:54
Rap, of course, rap --
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Rap, naravno, rap --
11:56
free-style.
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slobodni stil.
11:58
And so I've always been fascinated by free-style.
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I uvijek sam bio fasciniran slobodnim stilom.
12:00
And let's go ahead and play this video here.
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I pokrenimo ovaj video ovdje.
12:02
(Video) Mos Def: ♫ ... brown skin I be, standing five-ten I be ♫
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(Video) Mos Def: ♫... smeđa koža ja sam, stojeći na 1.80 ja sam ♫
12:04
♫ Rockin' it when I be, in your vicinity ♫
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♫ Svirati gdje jesam, u tvojoj blizini sam ♫
12:07
♫ Whole-style synergy, recognize symmetry ♫
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♫ Sinergija cijelog stila, poznata simetrija ♫
12:09
♫ Go and try to injure me, broke 'em down chemically ♫
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♫ Dođi i probaj me raniti, razbijem ih kemijski ♫
12:12
♫ Ain't the number 10 MC, talk about how been I be ♫
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♫ Nije broj 10 M.C., pričaj o tome kako jesi ♫
12:14
♫ Styled it like Kennedy, late like a 10 to three ♫
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♫ Stiliran poput Kennedya, kasnim poput 10 do trija ♫
12:17
♫ When I say when I be, girls say bend that key cut ♫
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♫ Kada kažem kada tu sam, cure kažu savij tu ogrebotinu od ključa ♫
12:20
CL: And so there's a lot of analogy
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CL: I postoji mnogo analogije
12:22
between what takes place in free-style rap and jazz.
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između rapa slobodnim stilom i jazza.
12:24
There are, in fact, a lot of correlations between the two forms of music
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Postoji, zapravo, mnogo korelacija između ta dva oblika glazbe
12:26
I think in different time periods.
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u različitim vremenskim periodima.
12:28
In a lot a ways, rap serves the same social function
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U mnogo pogleda, rap služi istoj društvenoj funkciji
12:30
that jazz used to serve.
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kojoj je jazz nekada služio.
12:32
So how do you study rap scientifically?
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Dakle, kako proučavate rap znanstvenim putem?
12:34
And my colleagues kind of think I'm crazy,
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I moji kolege, na neki način, misle kako sam lud,
12:36
but I think it's very viable.
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ali ja mislim da je to vrlo izvedivo.
12:38
And so this is what you do: you have a free-style artist
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A ovo je što morate učiniti: imate umjetnika za slobodan stil
12:40
come in and memorize a rap that you write for them,
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koji dođe i memorira rap koji vi napišete za njega,
12:42
that they've never heard before,
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a koji nikada prije nisu čuli,
12:44
and then you have them free-style.
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i zatim im dopustite da izvedu to slobodnim stilom.
12:46
So I told my lab members that I would rap for TED,
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I stoga sam rekao svojim članovima laboratorija kako ću rapati za TED,
12:48
and they said, "No, you won't."
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a oni su rekli, "Ne, nećeš."
12:50
And then I thought --
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A zatim sam pomislio --
12:52
(Applause)
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(Pljesak)
12:58
But here's the thing.
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Evo o čemu se radi.
13:00
With this big screen, you can all rap with me. Okay?
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S ovim velikim zaslonom, svi možete rapati sa mnom. U redu?
13:03
So what we had them do
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Ono što smo im dali da učine
13:05
was memorize this lower-left sound icon, please.
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jest da memoriraju ovu donju lijevu ikonu zvuka, molim.
13:07
This is the control condition. This is what they memorized.
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Ovo je kontrolna situacija. Ovo su memorirali.
13:10
Computer: ♫ Memory, thump. ♫
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Računalo: ♫ Memorija, udarac. ♫
13:12
CL: ♫ Thump of the beat in a known repeat ♫
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CL: ♫ Udarac takta u poznatom ponavljanju ♫
13:15
♫ Rhythm and rhyme, they make me complete ♫
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♫ Ritam i rima, sa mnom sve štima ♫
13:18
♫ The climb is sublime when I'm on the mic ♫
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♫ Uspon brojim kada za mikrofonom stojim ♫
13:20
♫ Spittin' rhymes that hit you like a lightning strike ♫
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♫ Bacam rime i udarce munja brojim ♫
13:23
♫ I search for the truth in this eternal quest ♫
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♫ Tražim istinu u ovom vječnom pohodu ♫
13:25
♫ My passion's not fashion, you can see how I'm dressed ♫
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♫ Moja strast nije moda, vidite s kakvom garderobom hoda ♫
13:28
♫ Psychopathic words in my head appear ♫
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♫ Psihopatske riječi u mojoj glavi se pojavljuju ♫
13:31
♫ Whisper these lyrics only I can hear ♫
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♫ Šapat tih pjesama samo kod mene odzvanja ♫
13:34
♫ The art of discovering and that which is hovering ♫
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♫ Lebdenja su djelovi umjetnosti otkrivanja ♫
13:36
♫ Inside the mind of those unconfined ♫
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♫ Unutar mozga bez pokrića ♫
13:39
♫ All of these words keep pouring out like rain ♫
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♫ Poput kiše izlaze iz mene ove riječi ♫
13:42
♫ I need a mad scientist to check my brain ♫
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♫ Potreban mi je lud znanstvenik da moj mozak liječi ♫
13:45
(Applause)
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(Pljesak)
13:54
I guarantee you that will never happen again.
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Garantiram vam, ovo se više nikad neće ponoviti.
13:57
(Laughter)
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(Smijeh)
13:59
So now, what's great about these free-stylers,
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Sada, ono što je super kod tih umjetnika slobodnim stilom,
14:01
they will get cued different words.
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jest da će ubaciti druge riječi.
14:03
They don't know what's coming, but they'll hear something off the cuff.
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Ne znaju što im dolazi, ali čuti će nešto potpuno drugačije.
14:05
Go ahead and hit that right sound icon.
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Dajte kliknite tu desnu ikonu zvuka.
14:07
They are going to be cued these three square words: "like," "not" and "head."
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Dobit će redoslijed od te tri riječi: 'kao', 'ne' i 'glava'.
14:10
He doesn't know what's coming.
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On ne zna što dolazi.
14:12
Free-styler: ♫ I'm like some kind of [unclear] ♫
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Umjetnik slobodnim stilom: ♫ Ja sam poput [nejasno] ♫
14:14
♫ [unclear] extraterrestrial, celestial scene ♫
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♫ [nejasno] izvanzemaljska, nebeska scena ♫
14:17
♫ Back in the days, I used to sit in pyramids and meditate ♫
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♫ Nekad davno, znao sam u piramidama sjediti i meditirati ♫
14:20
♫ With two microphones hovering over my head ♫
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♫ S dva leteća mikrofona iznad moje glave ♫
14:23
♫ See if I could still listen, spittin' off the sound ♫
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♫ Vidi mogu li i dalje slušati, taj zvuk van pljuvati ♫
14:26
♫ See what you grinning ♫
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♫ Vidi kako se ceriš ♫
14:28
♫ I teach the children in the back of the classroom ♫
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♫ Učim djecu u stražnjem dijelu učionice ♫
14:30
♫ About the message of apocalyptical ♫
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♫ O apokaliptičnoj poruci ♫
14:33
♫ Not really though, 'cause I've got to keep it simple ♫
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♫ Nije zapravo teško, jer moram se držat pravila jednostavnosti ♫
14:36
♫ [unclear] instrumental ♫
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♫ [nejasno] instrumental ♫
14:38
♫ Detrimental playing Super Mario ♫
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♫ Štetnost igra Super Mario ♫
14:41
♫ [unclear] boxes [unclear] hip hop ♫
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♫ [nejasno] kutije [nejasno] hip hop ♫
14:45
CL: So again, it's an incredible thing that's taking place.
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CL: Ponovno, nevjerojatna stvar se događa ovdje.
14:47
It's doing something that, neurologically, is remarkable.
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Radeći nešto što je, neurološki, izvanredno.
14:49
Whether or not you like the music is irrelevant.
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Volite li glazbu ili ne je nevažno.
14:51
Creatively speaking, it's just a phenomenal thing.
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Govoreći u terminima kreativnosti, to je jednostavno fenomenalna stvar.
14:53
This is a short video of how we actually do this in a scanner.
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Ovo je kratak video kako to zapravo radimo u skeneru.
14:56
(Laughter)
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(Smijeh)
14:59
(Video) CL: We're here with Emmanuel.
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(Video) CL: Ovdje smo s Emmanuelom.
15:01
CL: That was recorded in the scanner, by the way.
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CL: Ovo je, usput rečeno, snimljeno u skeneru.
15:03
(Video) CL: That's Emmanuel in the scanner.
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(Video) CL: Ovo je Emmanuel u skeneru.
15:06
He's just memorized a rhyme for us.
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On je za nas memorirao rimu.
15:12
Emmanuel: ♫ Top of the beat with no repeat ♫
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Emmanuel: ♫ Od vrha udarca kažem bez repeticija ♫
15:15
♫ Rhythm and rhyme make me complete ♫
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♫ Ritam i rime me ispune ♫
15:18
♫ Climb is sublime when I'm on the mic ♫
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♫ Uspon je uzvišen kada za mikrofonom stojim ♫
15:21
♫ Spittin' rhymes that'll hit you like a lightning strike ♫
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♫ Pljujem rime i udarce munja brojim ♫
15:23
♫ I search for the truth in this eternal quest ♫
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♫ Tražim istinu u ovom vječnom pohodu ♫
15:26
♫ I'm passing on fashion; you can see how I'm dressed ♫
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♫ Ostavljam modu, vidite me sa užasnom garderobom u hodu ♫
15:29
CL: Okay. So I'm going to stop that there. So what do we see in his brain?
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CL: U redu. Stati ću ovdje. Dakle, što vidimo u njegovom mozgu?
15:32
Well, this is actually four rappers' brains.
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Ovo su zapravo mozgovi četvorice rapera.
15:34
And what we see, we do see language areas lighting up,
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I ono što vidimo, vidimo kako su područja za jezik osvijetljena,
15:36
but then -- eyes closed --
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ali tada -- zatvorenih očiju --
15:38
when you are free-styling versus memorizing,
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kada izvodite komad slobodnim stilom nasuprot memoriranju,
15:41
you've got major visual areas lighting up.
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imate glavna područja za vizualizaciju koja su osvijetljena.
15:43
You've got major cerebellar activity, which is involved in motor coordination.
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Imate glavnu cerebelarnu aktivnost, koja je povezana s motoričkom koordinacijom.
15:46
You have heightened brain activity when you're doing a comparable task,
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Povisili ste moždanu aktivnost kada radite usporediv zadatak,
15:49
when that one task is creative and the other task is memorized.
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kada je jedan zadatak kreativan a drugi zadatak obuhvaća memoriranje.
15:53
It's very preliminary, but I think it's kind of cool.
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Vrlo je preliminarno, ali mislim kako je, na neki način, super.
15:55
So just to conclude, we've got a lot of questions to ask,
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Samo da zaključim, imamo mnogo pitanja koje moramo postaviti.
15:58
and like I said, we'll ask questions here, not answer them.
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I kao što sam rekao, ovdje ćemo postavljati pitanja, a nećemo davati odgovore.
16:01
But we want to get at the root of what is creative genius, neurologically,
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Ali želimo doći do srži poimanja kreativnog genija, u neurološkom smislu.
16:04
and I think, with these methods, we're getting close to being there.
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I mislim, s tim metodama, približavamo se tome.
16:07
And I think hopefully in the next 10, 20 years
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I mislim kako ćete u idućih 10, 20 godina
16:09
you'll actually see real, meaningful studies
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zapravo vidjeti stvarne, značajne studije
16:11
that say science has to catch up to art,
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koje kažu kako znanost mora dostići umjetnost,
16:15
and maybe we're starting now to get there.
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i možda mi počinjemo sada ići u tom smjeru.
16:17
And so I want to thank you for your time. I appreciate it.
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I stoga vam želim zahvaliti na vašem vremenu. Cjenim to.
16:19
(Applause)
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(Pljesak)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Charles Limb - ResearcherCharles Limb is a doctor and a musician who researches the way musical creativity works in the brain.
Why you should listen
Charles Limb is the Francis A. Sooy, MD Professor and Chief of Otology/Neurotology and Skull Base Surgery at the University of California, San Francisco, and he's a Faculty Member at the Peabody Conservatory of Music. He combines his two passions to study the way the brain creates and perceives music. He's a hearing specialist and surgeon at Johns Hopkins who performs cochlear implantations on patients who have lost their hearing. And he plays sax, piano and bass.
In search of a better understanding of how the mind perceives complex auditory stimuli such as music, he's been working with Allen Braun to look at the brains of improvising musicians and study what parts of the brain are involved in the kind of deep creativity that happens when a musician is really in the groove.
Read our Q&A about hip-hop studies with Charles Limb on the TED Blog >>
Plus our quick catchup Q&A at TEDMED 2011 -- including his top 5 songs of all time >>
Read the 2014 paper "Neural Substrates of Interactive Musical Improvisation: An fMRI Study of ‘Trading Fours’ in Jazz" >>
Charles Limb | Speaker | TED.com