TEDxCanberra
Stephen Coleman: Non-lethal weapons, a moral hazard?
斯蒂芬 科尔曼: 非致命武器的道德危机
Filmed:
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胡椒雾剂和高压眩晕枪被警察和军队使用的越来越多，更多的异国的非致命武器，例如热射线正在储备中。在TEDx堪培拉，伦理学家斯蒂芬 科尔曼探索了引进它们（非致命武器）之后意想不到的后果并且提出了一些具有挑战性的问题
Stephen Coleman - Ethicist
Stephen Coleman studies applied ethics, particularly the ethics of military and police force, and their application to human rights. Full bio
Stephen Coleman studies applied ethics, particularly the ethics of military and police force, and their application to human rights. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:15
What I want to talk to you about today
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今天我想要想大家谈论的
00:17
is some of the problems that the military of the Western world --
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是关于西方国家军队--
00:21
Australia, United States, U.K. and so on --
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澳大利亚，美国，英国等等--
00:24
face in some of the deployments
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面临着一些
00:26
that they're dealing with in the modern world at this time.
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对付现代世界的部署的问题
00:29
If you think about the sorts of things
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如果你想到的是那些
00:31
that we've sent Australian military personnel to in recent years,
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近几年我们将澳大利亚军队派遣到
00:34
we've got obvious things like Iraq and Afghanistan,
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明显的是如伊拉克和阿富汗，
00:37
but you've also got things like East Timor
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但是你也能想到东帝坟
00:39
and the Solomon Islands and so on.
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和所罗门群岛
00:41
And a lot of these deployments
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这些部署
00:43
that we're actually sending military personnel to these days
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如今我们实际上派遣军队去的
00:46
aren't traditional wars.
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并非是传统的战争
00:48
In fact, a lot of the jobs
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事实上，很多工作
00:50
that we're asking the military personnel to do in these situations
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在这些情况下我们要求军队去做的
00:53
are ones that, in their own countries, in Australia, the United States and so on,
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是那些在他们自己的国家，在澳大利亚，在美国等等，
00:56
would actually be done by police officers.
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可以被警察完成的（任务）
00:59
And so there's a bunch of problems that come up
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因此让军队处在这中情况下
01:01
for military personnel in these situations,
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出现了很多的问题
01:03
because they're doing things that they haven't really been trained for,
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因为他们在做一些从未被训练过的（任务）
01:06
and they're doing things
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他们做一些
01:08
that those who do them in their own countries
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其他人在他们自己国家
01:11
are trained very differently for
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被训练的十分的不同
01:13
and equipped very differently for.
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并且整装也十分的不相同（的任务）
01:15
Now there's a bunch of reasons why
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现在这里有很多的原因为什么
01:17
we actually do send military personnel
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我们实际上将军队派遣去
01:19
rather than police to do these jobs.
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而非警察去做这些工作
01:21
If Australia had to send a thousand people tomorrow
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打个比方，如果澳大利亚明天需要派遣一千人
01:24
to West Papua for example,
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去新几内亚
01:26
we don't have a thousand police officers hanging around
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我们没有一千名闲置的警察可以
01:28
that could just go tomorrow
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明天出发
01:30
and we do have a thousand soldiers that could go.
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我们却有一千名士兵可以去
01:32
So when we have to send someone, we send the military --
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所以当我们需要派遣什么人的时候，我们派遣军队--
01:35
because they're there, they're available
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因为他们就在那里，他们是闲置的
01:37
and, heck, they're used to going off and doing these things
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并且，他们习惯于紧急行动
01:39
and living by themselves
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和自我生存
01:41
and not having all this extra support.
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并且是在完全没有外部支持（的条件下）
01:43
So they are able to do it in that sense.
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因此他们理所应当可以做那些（派遣任务）
01:45
But they aren't trained in the same way that police officers are
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但是他们没有被警察一样培训
01:48
and they're certainly not equipped in the same way police officers are.
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他们当然也不能像警察一样的武装装备
01:51
And so this has raised a bunch of problems for them
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因此当处理类似于这类问题的时候
01:53
when dealing with these sorts of issues.
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对他们就产生了种种问题
01:55
One particular thing that's come up
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一件很特别的事情
01:57
that I am especially interested in
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正是我十分感兴趣的
01:59
is the question of whether,
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就是，
02:01
when we're sending military personnel to do these sorts of jobs,
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当我们把军队派遣去做这些工作时，
02:03
we ought to be equipping them differently,
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我们应该不同地武装他们，
02:05
and in particular, whether we ought to be giving them access
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然后特别是，我们是否应该给与他们
02:07
to some of the sorts of non-lethal weapons that police have.
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警察拥有的（使用）非致命武器的接近（权力）
02:10
Since they're doing some of these same jobs,
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由于他们做的是类同的工作，
02:12
maybe they should have some of those things.
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他们也许应该拥有这些东西
02:14
And of course, there's a range of places
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当然，这里有一系列的地方
02:16
where you'd think those things would be really useful.
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你认为那些东西应该是很有用的
02:18
So for example, when you've got military checkpoints.
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例如，当在军队的检查站
02:21
If people are approaching these checkpoints
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如果人们接近这些检查站
02:23
and the military personnel there are unsure
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并且军人们不能确定
02:25
whether this person's hostile or not.
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这些人是否怀有敌意
02:27
Say this person approaching here,
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比如说这个人接近这里，
02:29
and they say, "Well is this a suicide bomber or not?
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他们说，‘这是不是个人体炸弹？
02:31
Have they got something hidden under their clothing? What's going to happen?"
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他们是不是在衣服底下藏了什么东西？将会发生什么事情？’
02:33
They don't know whether this person's hostile or not.
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他们不知道这个人是否有敌意
02:35
If this person doesn't follow directions,
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如果这个人不按照指示行动
02:37
then they may end up shooting them
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他们就会最终射击他们
02:39
and then find out afterward
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最后才发现
02:41
either, yes, we shot the right person,
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或者，是的，我们射对了，
02:43
or, no, this was just an innocent person
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又或者是，不，这仅仅是个无辜的
02:45
who didn't understand what was going on.
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不知道发生什么事情的人
02:47
So if they had non-lethal weapons
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所以如果他们拥有非致命武器
02:49
then they would say, "Well we can use them in that sort of situation.
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他们就可以说，‘我们在那种环境下可以用它们
02:51
If we shoot someone who wasn't hostile,
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如果我们射击了一些没有敌意的人，
02:53
at least we haven't killed them."
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至少我们并没有杀死他们’
02:55
Another situation.
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另一种情况
02:57
This photo is actually from one of the missions
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这张照片实际上是
02:59
in the Balkans in the late 1990s.
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一九九零年代末巴尔干半岛的一次任务
03:01
Situation's a little bit different
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情况是有点不同
03:03
where perhaps they know someone who's hostile,
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在于他们大概知道谁是带有敌意
03:05
where they've got someone shooting at them
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在于他们被射击
03:07
or doing something else that's clearly hostile, throwing rocks, whatever.
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或者其他的一些明显带有敌意的行动，扔石头，任何东西
03:10
But if they respond, there's a range of other people around,
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但是如果他们回击，这里有一群其他的人在身边，
03:13
who are innocent people who might also get hurt --
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无辜的人们也会受到伤害--
03:16
be collateral damage that the military often doesn't want to talk about.
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会被牵连地受到伤害这也正是军队不愿意谈的
03:20
So again, they would say, "Well if we have access to non-lethal weapons,
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再次，他们会说，‘如果我们有使用非致命武器的权力，
03:22
if we've got someone we know is hostile,
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如果我们知道哪些人是怀有敌意的，
03:24
we can do something to deal with them
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我们可以处理他们
03:26
and know that if we hit anyone else around the place,
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并且知道我们是否袭击了那个地方其他的人，
03:28
at least, again, we're not going to kill them."
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至少，再次，我们不会杀了他们’
03:30
Another suggestion has been,
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另外一个建议
03:32
since we're putting so many robots in the field,
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因为我们在战地伤安置了很多机器人，
03:34
we can see the time coming
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我们可以看见
03:36
where they're actually going to be sending robots out in the field that are autonomous.
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（那些机器人）被送到战地里是自动的
03:39
They're going to make their own decisions about who to shoot and who not to shoot
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他们自己决定射击谁不射击谁
03:42
without a human in the loop.
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在完全没有人类智慧参与的情况下
03:44
And so the suggestion is, well hey,
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因此建议是这样的，
03:46
if we're going to send robots out and allow them to do this,
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如果我们将机器人送出去并且允许他们做这些事情，
03:48
maybe it would be a good idea, again, with these things
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这大概将是一个好主意，拥有这些东西
03:51
if they were armed with non-lethal weapons
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如果他们以非致命武器武装起来
03:53
so that if the robot makes a bad decision and shoots the wrong person,
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就算机器人做了个错误的决定射击了错误的对象
03:56
again, they haven't actually killed them.
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他们其实并没有杀死他们
03:58
Now there's a whole range of different sorts of non-lethal weapons,
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现在这里有一系列的非致命武器，
04:01
some of which are obviously available now,
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有些现在明显地可用，
04:03
some of which they're developing.
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有些正在被开发
04:05
So you've got traditional things like pepper spray,
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你已经有了传统的（非致命武器）如胡椒雾剂，
04:07
O.C. spray up at the top there,
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(神经麻痹剂的)防暴喷剂在上面
04:09
or Tasers over here.
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又或者是高压眩晕枪
04:11
The one on the top right here is actually a dazzling laser
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在右上边的这个实际上是一个耀眼激光
04:14
intended to just blind the person momentarily
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用来使人瞬间变盲
04:16
and disorient them.
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并失去方向感
04:18
You've got non-lethal shotgun rounds
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你有非致命短枪射出
04:20
that contain rubber pellets
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橡皮子弹
04:22
instead of the traditional metal ones.
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替代传统的金属子弹
04:24
And this one in the middle here, the large truck,
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这个在中间的，大卡车
04:27
is actually called the Active Denial System --
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实际上被叫做主动拒止系统--
04:29
something the U.S. military is working on at the moment.
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是个美军此时正在使用的（非致命武器）
04:32
It's essentially a big microwave transmitter.
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它实际上是一个巨型的微波发射机，
04:35
It's sort of your classic idea of a heat ray.
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它就是你们传统想象中的热射线
04:38
It goes out to a really long distance,
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它可以射出非常长的距离
04:41
compared to any of these other sorts of things.
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与其它类似的相比
04:43
And anybody who is hit with this
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任何被它击中的人
04:45
feels this sudden burst of heat
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感受到这种突然爆发的热
04:47
and just wants to get out of the way.
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就想从中挣脱出来
04:49
It is a lot more sophisticated than a microwave oven,
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它比微波炉更复杂，
04:52
but it is basically boiling the water molecules
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但是它实际上煮沸
04:54
in the very surface level of your skin.
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你最上层皮肤上的水原子
04:56
So you feel this massive heat,
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所以你感觉到大范围的热，
04:58
and you go, "I want to get out of the way."
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然后你就（叫喊），‘我想要脱离出来’
05:00
And they're thinking, well this will be really useful
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于是他们想，这将会很有用处
05:03
in places like where we need to clear a crowd out of a particular area,
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在那些我们想要在一个特定的地区清除一个人群
05:05
if the crowd is being hostile.
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如果这个人群是有敌意的
05:07
If we need to keep people away from a particular place,
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如果我们需要让人们远离一个特定的地方，
05:10
we can do that with these sorts of things.
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我们可以用这些东西来做这样的事情
05:13
So obviously there's a whole range of different sorts
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因此很明显地这里有整个系列不同地
05:15
of non-lethal weapons we could give military personnel
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非致命武器我们给于军队士兵们
05:18
and there's a whole range of situations
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而且这里有一整个系列的情况
05:20
where they're looking a them and saying, "Hey, these things could be really useful."
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他们正在寻找并且说，‘嗨，这些东西真的很有用’
05:23
But as I said,
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但是我却说，
05:25
the military and the police
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军队和警察
05:27
are very different.
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是很不同的
05:29
Yes, you don't have to look very hard at this
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是的，你不用非常仔细地去看
05:31
to recognize the fact that they might be very different.
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才认识到他们是非常不同这一事实
05:33
In particular,
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特别地，
05:35
the attitude to the use of force
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使用武力的态度
05:37
and the way they're trained to use force
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和他们被训练的使用武力的方式
05:39
is especially different.
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是特别得不同的
05:41
The police --
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警察--
05:43
and knowing because I've actually helped to train police --
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我了解他们因为我曾经帮助训练过警察--
05:46
police, in particular Western jurisdictions at least,
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警察，特别是在西方司法至少，
05:49
are trained to de-escalate force,
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被训练的减弱对抗力，
05:52
to try and avoid using force
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试图并且避免使用军力
05:54
wherever possible,
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在任何情况下，
05:56
and to use lethal force
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致命武器
05:58
only as an absolute last resort.
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仅仅做为最后手段来使用
06:01
Military personnel are being trained for war,
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军队是为了战争而训练
06:04
so they're trained that, as soon as things go bad,
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因此他们被训练的，只要事情变糟糕
06:07
their first response is lethal force.
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他们最首要的对应就是致命武器
06:11
The moment the fecal matter hits the rotating turbine,
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当粪便袭击旋转涡轮，
06:15
you can start shooting at people.
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你就可以射击人群
06:18
So their attitudes
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所以他们
06:20
to the use of lethal force are very different,
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使用致命武器的态度十分的不同，
06:22
and I think it's fairly obvious
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我认为很明显的
06:24
that their attitude to the use of non-lethal weapons
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他们对使用非致命武器的态度
06:27
would also be very different from what it is with the police.
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也可以与对待警察的态度十分不同
06:30
And since we've already had so many problems
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因为我们已经有很多
06:32
with police use of non-lethal weapons in various ways,
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关于警察以多种方式使用非致命武器的问题
06:35
I thought it would be a really good idea to look at some of those things
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我觉得看待这些事情
06:38
and try to relate it to the military context.
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并且试图从以军队作为联系是一个好主意
06:40
And I was really surprised when I started to do this,
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我十分惊讶当我开始做这些事情的时候
06:42
to see that, in fact,
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看这些，实际上，
06:44
even those people who were advocating the use of non-lethal weapons by the military
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甚至于这些军队里避免使用的非致命武器的
06:47
hadn't actually done that.
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也实际上还没有做到那些
06:49
They generally seem to think,
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他们大部分看起来是在想，
06:51
"Well, why would we care what's happened with the police?
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“那么，为什么我们要关心发生在警察
06:53
We're looking at something different,"
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我们在关注一些不同的东西，”
06:55
and didn't seem to recognize, in fact,
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似乎还没有认识到，实际上，
06:57
they were looking at pretty much the same stuff.
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他们在看待差不多一样的事情
06:59
So I actually started to investigate some of those issues
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所以我实际上开始对这些问题进行调查
07:01
and have a look
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并且观察
07:03
at the way that police use non-lethal weapons when they're introduced
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当警察被介绍使用非致命武器
07:06
and some of the problems that might arise
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和一些在这些事情之外
07:08
out of those sorts of things
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可能发生的问题
07:10
when they actually do introduce them.
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当它们（非致命武器）实际上被介绍给他们
07:12
And of course, being Australian,
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当然，作为一名澳大利亚人，
07:14
I started looking at stuff in Australia,
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我从看澳大利亚的东西开始，
07:16
knowing, again, from my own experience about various times
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知道，再次，从我自己的经验知道
07:19
when non-lethal weapons have been introduced in Australia.
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当非致命武器被引入澳大利亚的种种情况下
07:22
So one of the things I particularly looked at
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有一件我特别注意的事情就是
07:24
was the use of O.C. spray,
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带有神经麻痹剂的防暴喷剂(O.C. spray),
07:26
oleoresin capsicum spray, pepper spray,
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辣椒油树脂喷雾，胡椒雾剂，
07:28
by Australian police
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被澳大利亚的警察使用
07:30
and seeing when that had been introduced, what had happened
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看到它们被引进来，看到
07:32
and those sorts of issues.
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有关于这些东西的问题
07:34
And one study that I found,
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我发现了一项研究
07:36
a particularly interesting one,
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一个特别有意思的研究，
07:38
was actually in Queensland,
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实际上是（发生在）昆士兰州，
07:40
because they had a trial period for the use of pepper spray
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因为在它们实际被广泛的引进之前
07:43
before they actually introduced it more broadly.
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有一个使用胡椒雾剂的试用时间
07:46
And I went and had a look at some of the figures here.
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我找到并且观察这些数据
07:49
Now when they introduced O.C. spray in Queensland,
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他们将带有神经麻痹剂的防暴喷剂(O.C. spray)引进到昆士兰州，
07:51
they were really explicit.
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是十分明确的
07:53
The police minister had a whole heap of public statements made about it.
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警察官有一堆关于这个的公文
07:56
They were saying, "This is explicitly intended
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公文上是，“这是明确地
07:58
to give police an option
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给警察一个
08:00
between shouting and shooting.
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叫喊和射击的选择
08:03
This is something they can use instead of a firearm
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这是可以替代武器而使用的
08:06
in those situations where they would have previously had to shoot someone."
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在那些之前他们可以射击人们的情况下”
08:09
So I went and looked at all of these police shooting figures.
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所以我搜集了所有那些警察射击的数据
08:12
And you can't actually find them very easily
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实际上不能轻易地找到
08:14
for individual Australian states.
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个别州的（数据）
08:16
I could only find these ones.
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我只能找到这些
08:18
This is from a Australian Institute of Criminology report.
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这是从澳大利亚犯罪学报告中（找到的）
08:20
As you can see from the fine print, if you can read it at the top:
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从这些极小的字体你可以看到，如果你能够从上面读：
08:22
"Police shooting deaths" means not just people who have been shot by police,
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“警察射击死亡”不是仅仅指那些被警察射击的人，
08:25
but people who have shot themselves in the presence of police.
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还指那些在警察在场时射击自己的人
08:29
But this is the figures across the entire country.
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但是这是整个国家的数据
08:31
And the red arrow represents the point
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红色的箭头的地方代表
08:33
where Queensland actually said,
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昆士兰州
08:35
"Yes, this is where we're going to give all police officers across the entire state
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“是的，这是我们在整个国家里
08:38
access to O.C. spray."
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允许警察使用神经麻痹剂防暴喷剂(O.C. SPRAY)的地方”
08:40
So you can see there were six deaths sort of leading up to it
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所以你可以看到这之前每一年有
08:43
every year for a number of years.
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六历死亡（案例）
08:45
There was a spike, of course, a few years before,
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这是一个高峰，几年之前，
08:47
but that wasn't actually Queensland.
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但是这却不是在昆士兰州
08:49
Anyone know where that was? Wasn't Port Arthur, no.
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谁知道那是哪里？不，也不是旅顺港
08:52
Victoria? Yes, correct.
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维多利亚？ 是的，没错
08:54
That spike was all Victoria.
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这个高峰是维多利亚
08:57
So it wasn't that Queensland had a particular problem
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就是说昆士兰州有一个特殊的问题
08:59
with deaths from police shootings and so on.
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伴随着警察的射击等等
09:03
So six shootings across the whole country,
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所以六历死亡在整个国家
09:05
fairly consistently over the years before.
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持续了在这之前的年头
09:07
So the next two years were the years they studied -- 2001, 2002.
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所以他们研究了接下来的两年--2001年，2002年
09:10
Anyone want to take a stab at the number of times,
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任何人想要尝试一下次数，
09:13
given how they've introduced this,
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在知道他们是如何被引进的情况下，
09:15
the number of times police in Queensland used O.C. spray in that period?
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昆士兰州的警察在那段时间里使用了带有神经麻痹剂的防暴喷剂(O.C. spray)多少次？
09:18
Hundreds? One, three.
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一百次？三百次？
09:20
Thousand is getting better.
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或者更应该是一千次
09:25
Explicitly introduced
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明确地
09:27
as an alternative to the use of lethal force --
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将它们作为致命武器的替代品而引进－－
09:29
an alternative between shouting and shooting.
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一个在呼喊和射击的之间的替换品
09:32
I'm going to go out on a limb here
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我现在处在一个非常不利的状态
09:34
and say that if Queensland police didn't have O.C. spray,
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并且说如果昆士兰州的警察没有带有神经麻痹剂的防暴喷剂(O.C. spray)，
09:37
they wouldn't have shot 2,226 people
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他们不会已经在这两年中
09:40
in those two years.
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射击了2，226人
09:43
In fact, if you have a look
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实际上，如果你看一下
09:45
at the studies that they were looking at,
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他们做的这个研究，
09:47
the material they were collecting and examining,
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他们搜集和检验的这些材料，
09:50
you can see the suspects were only armed
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你可以看到这个猜想仅仅
09:53
in about 15 percent of cases
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有15%被武装
09:55
where O.C. spray was used.
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所有带有神经麻痹剂的防暴喷剂(O.C. spray)被使用的情况下
09:57
It was routinely being used in this period,
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它们在这个阶段被例行公事地利用，
10:00
and, of course, still is routinely used --
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并且，当然，仍旧是例行公事地利用--
10:02
because there were no complaints about it,
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因为没有抱怨，
10:04
not within the context of this study anyway --
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在这个研究内容里没有--
10:07
it was routinely being used
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它被例行公事地使用
10:09
to deal with people who were violent,
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来对付凶暴的人们，
10:11
who were potentially violent,
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潜在暴力的人们，
10:13
and also quite frequently used
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并且更加经常地用来去
10:15
to deal with people who were simply
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对付那些单纯
10:17
passively non-compliant.
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消极地无抱怨的人们
10:21
This person is not doing anything violent,
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这个人并不会去施任何暴力,
10:23
but they just won't do what we want them to.
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但是他们只是不去做他们（警察）想要他们去做的
10:25
They're not obeying the directions that we're giving them,
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他们不遵守我们给的指导方向，
10:27
so we'll give them a shot of the O.C. spray.
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所以我们向他们射击带有神经麻痹剂的防暴喷剂(O.C. spray)
10:29
That'll speed them up. Everything will work out better that way.
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那将将此加速。任何事情在此情况下变得好转
10:33
This was something explicitly introduced
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这就是被作为武器的替换物
10:35
to be an alternative to firearms,
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而引进来的，
10:37
but it's being routinely used
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但是它被例行公事地用作
10:39
to deal with a whole range
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其他大范围的
10:41
of other sorts of problems.
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问题
10:43
Now one of the particular issues that comes up
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现在一个特别突出的问题就是
10:45
with military use of non-lethal weapons --
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伴随着军队使用非致命武器--
10:48
and people when they're actually saying, "Well hey, there might be some problems" --
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人们实际上在说，“嘿，那里似乎有些问题”--
10:51
there's a couple of particular problems that get focused on.
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那里有一些特别的问题被关注
10:54
One of those problems
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这其中的一个问题
10:56
is that non-lethal weapons may be used indiscriminately.
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就是非致命武器可能会被滥用
10:59
One of the fundamental principles of military use of force
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军队使用武器的一个基本原则
11:02
is that you have to be discriminate.
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就是必须要有辨别力
11:04
You have to be careful about who you're shooting at.
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你要非常地小心在射击的是什么
11:07
So one of the problems that's been suggested with non-lethal weapons
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一个伴随着非致命武器的问题
11:10
is that they might be used indiscriminately --
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就是他们可能被毫无区别地使用--
11:12
that you use them against a whole range of people
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你用它们来对付大规模的人们
11:14
because you don't have to worry so much anymore.
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因为你不用再担心了
11:17
And in fact, one particular instance
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实际上，一个特别的例子
11:19
where I think that actually happens where you can look at it
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我认为实际上发生在你看到的
11:21
was the Dubrovka Theatre siege in Moscow in 2002,
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2002年莫斯科的杜布拉芙卡剧场围攻，
11:24
which probably a lot of you, unlike most of my students at ADFA,
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可能不像在ADFA的我的学生
11:26
are actually old enough to remember.
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在你们的年纪大概都能记得
11:28
So Chechens had come in and taken control of the theater.
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车臣进去并且控制了那个剧场
11:31
They were holding something like 700 people hostage.
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他们掌握了大概700名人质
11:34
They'd released a bunch of people,
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他们已经释放了很多人，
11:36
but they still had about 700 people hostage.
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但是他们仍旧掌握着700名人质
11:39
And the Russian special military police,
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俄罗斯特殊军事警察，
11:42
special forces, Spetsnaz,
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特种部队，阿尔法小组，
11:44
came in and actually stormed the theater.
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进攻并且实际上猛击了那个剧场
11:46
And the way they did it was to pump the whole thing full of anesthetic gas.
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他们所用的是将整个地方灌输麻醉气体
11:49
And it turned out
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结果是
11:51
that lots of these hostages actually died
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很多人质
11:54
as a result of inhaling the gas.
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因为吸入这些气体而死亡
11:57
It was used indiscriminately.
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它被任意地使用了
11:59
They pumped the whole theater full of the gas.
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他们将整个剧场灌输气体
12:02
And it's no surprise that people died,
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所以也不奇怪人们会死
12:04
because you don't know how much of this gas
299
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因为你不知道每个人
12:06
each person is going to inhale,
300
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会吸入多少气体，
12:08
what position they're going to fall in
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他们将以怎样的姿势昏倒
12:10
when they become unconscious and so on.
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当他们变得无意识等等
12:12
There were, in fact, only a couple of people who got shot
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实际上，仅有一小部分人被射击
12:15
in this episode.
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在这种情节下
12:17
So when they had a look at it afterward,
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所以当他们之后再去观察，
12:19
there were only a couple of people
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仅仅有一小部分人们
12:21
who'd apparently been shot by the hostage takers
307
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被人质挟持者射击
12:23
or shot by the police forces
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或者被警察射击
12:25
coming in and trying to deal with the situation.
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在解决当时的情况下
12:27
Virtually everybody that got killed
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实际上每个被杀死的人
12:29
got killed from inhaling the gas.
311
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都是被吸进那些气体而杀死的
12:31
The final toll of hostages
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最终的人质死亡人数
12:33
is a little unclear,
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是有些不明确，
12:35
but it's certainly a few more than that,
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但是明确地是比那个（数据）更多，
12:37
because there were other people who died over the next few days.
315
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因为一些人死于之后的几天
12:39
So this was one particular problem they talked about,
316
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所以他们谈论的一个重要问题，
12:41
that it might be used indiscriminately.
317
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就是（非致命武器）可能会被无区别地使用
12:43
Second problem that people sometimes talk about
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第二个问题就是人们一些时候谈论
12:45
with military use of non-lethal weapons,
319
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军队使用非致命武器，
12:47
and it's actually the reason why in the chemical weapons convention,
320
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这也实际上是为什么化学武器公约
12:50
it's very clear that you can't use riot control agents
321
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上明确地（规定）不能用催泪性毒气
12:52
as a weapon of warfare,
322
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作为冲突武器，
12:54
the problem with that is that it's seen that sometimes
323
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它所伴随的问题就是一些时候
12:57
non-lethal weapons might actually be used, not as an alternative to lethal force,
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非致命武器可能被并非作为一个致命武器
13:00
but as a lethal force multiplier --
325
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而是一个致命武器的扩充物--
13:03
that you use non-lethal weapons first
326
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你可以先用非致命
13:05
so that your lethal weapons will actually be more effective.
327
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以便你的致命武器将会更加有效
13:08
The people you're going to be shooting at
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那些你要射击的人
13:10
aren't going to be able to get out of the way.
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不会从那里逃脱
13:12
They're not going to be aware of what's happening and you can kill them better.
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他们不会意识到发生了什么而你也能更好地杀死他们
13:15
And in fact, that's exactly what happened here.
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实际上，这正是现在所发生的
13:18
The hostage takers who had been rendered unconscious by the gas
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那些由于气体失去意识而被降伏的人质挟持者
13:21
were not taken into custody,
333
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并没有被羁押，
13:23
they were simply shot in the head.
334
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他们仅仅是被击中了头部
13:26
So this non-lethal weapon
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所以这些非致命武器
13:28
was being used, in fact, in this case
336
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被使用，实际上，在这些情况下
13:30
as a lethal force multiplier
337
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作为一个致命武器的增强武器
13:33
to make killing more effective
338
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另射杀更加有效
13:35
in this particular situation.
339
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在这种特殊的情况下
13:38
Another problem that I just want to quickly mention
340
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我还想很快地提及另外一个问题
13:40
is that there's a whole heap of problems
341
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这儿有一堆的问题
13:42
with the way that people actually get taught
342
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人们实际上被教会
13:44
to use non-lethal weapons
343
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使用非致命武器
13:46
and get trained about them and then get tested and so on.
344
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被训练并且试验等等
13:48
Because they get tested in nice, safe environments.
345
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因为他们在一个安全的环境下被测试
13:51
And people get taught to use them in nice, safe environments
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人们也就在一个安全的环境下被教会
13:54
like this, where you can see exactly what's going on.
347
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正如这样，你可以看见是如何发生的
13:57
The person who's spraying the O.C. spray is wearing a rubber glove
348
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这些喷射带有神经麻痹剂的防暴喷剂(O.C. spray)的人带着橡胶手套
14:00
to make sure they don't get contaminated and so on.
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以防止被污染或者别的
14:02
But they don't ever get used like that.
350
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但是他们从未如此使用过
14:04
They get used out in the real world,
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他们适应真实世界之外（的环境）
14:06
like in Texas, like this.
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像在得克萨斯州，像这样
14:10
I confess, this particular case
353
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我承认，这个特殊的例子
14:13
was actually one that piqued my interest in this.
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实际上激发了我的兴趣
14:15
It happened while I was working as a research fellow at the U.S. Naval Academy.
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者发生在我在(美国)海军军官学校作为一名研究者工作的时候
14:18
And news reports started coming up about this situation
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报纸开始报道
14:21
where this woman was arguing with the police officer.
357
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一名妇女和警察发生争论的这件事情
14:24
She wasn't violent.
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她并没有暴力行为
14:26
In fact, he was probably six inches taller than me,
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实际上，他大概比我高6英尺左右，
14:28
and she was about this tall.
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她也就是这么高
14:31
And eventually she said to him
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最后她对他说
14:33
"Well I'm going to get back in my car."
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“我要回我的车里去了”
14:35
And he says, "If you get back into your car, I'm going to tase you."
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他说，“如果你要回你的车，那么我就要tase(用高压眩晕枪射击）你”
14:37
And she says, "Oh, go ahead. Tase me." And so he does.
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她说，“来吧，射击我吧”于是他就做了
14:40
And it's all captured by the video camera
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这些都被摄像机扑捉下来了
14:42
running in the front of the police car.
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就在警车前面
14:46
So she's 72,
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她72岁，
14:49
and it's seen that this is the most appropriate way of dealing with her.
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这看起来是对待她最不合适的一种方式
14:53
And other examples of the same sorts of things
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另外一个与此类似的情况是
14:55
with other people where you think
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你认为对于其他的人
14:57
where you think, "Is this really an appropriate way to use non-lethal weapons?"
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“使用非致命武器真的是一个合适的手段吗？”
15:00
"Police chief fires Taser into 14 year-old girl's head."
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“警察官们用高压眩晕枪射击一个14岁女孩儿的头”
15:02
"She was running away. What else was I suppose to do?"
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“她跑了，我还能做什么什么呢？”
15:05
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
15:08
Or Florida:
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又或者在弗罗里达州：
15:10
"Police Taser six year-old boy at elementary school."
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“警察在一个小学用高压眩晕枪射击了一个6岁的男孩儿”
15:13
And they clearly learned a lot from it
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他们的确从中学到了些什么
15:15
because in the same district,
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因为在同一个区，
15:17
"Police review policy after children shocked:
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“在孩子们被射击后警察重新审视了他们的政策
15:19
2nd child shocked by Taser stun gun within weeks."
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第二个孩子在几周后被高压眩晕枪射击“
15:22
Same police district.
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在同一个警察区
15:24
Another child within weeks of Tasering the six year-old boy.
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之前那个六岁被射击的孩子发生之后的几周内另一个孩子（被射击）
15:27
Just in case you think
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万一你认为
15:29
it's only going to happen in the United States,
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这仅仅发生在美国，
15:31
it happened in Canada as well.
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也发生在加拿大，
15:33
And a colleague of mine
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我的一个同事
15:35
sent me this one from London.
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从伦敦给我寄来了这个
15:37
But my personal favorite of these ones, I have to confess,
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但是我个人最喜欢的，我得坦白，
15:40
does actually come from the United States:
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是从美国来的：
15:43
"Officers Taser 86 year-old disabled woman in her bed."
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”警官们用高压眩晕枪射击了一名残疾的86岁的老太太，在她的床上“
15:46
I checked the reports on this one.
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我检查了这个报告
15:50
I looked at it. I was really surprised.
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我看着它，我十分的吃惊
15:53
Apparently she took up a more threatening position in her bed.
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明显地她在床上的姿势更具有威胁力
15:56
(Laughter)
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(掌声）
15:58
I kid you not. That's exactly what it said.
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我没有跟你们开玩笑，报告上是这样说的
16:00
"She took up a more threatening position in her bed."
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”她在床上做了更加具有威胁力的姿势“
16:03
Okay.
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好的
16:05
But I'd remind you what I'm talking about,
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但是我提醒你我在说什么，
16:07
I'm talking about military uses of non-lethal weapons.
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我再说关于军队使用非致命武器
16:09
So why is this relevant?
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所以为什么这些有关联？
16:11
Because police are actually more restrained in the use of force
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因为警察们比军人们对使用
16:13
than the military are.
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武器有更多的限制
16:15
They're trained to be more restrained in the use of force than the military are.
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他们被训练的比军队使用武器有更多的限制
16:18
They're trained to think more, to try and de-escalate.
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他们被训练地思考更多，试图并且减压
16:21
So if you have these problems with police officers with non-lethal weapons,
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所以如果你对警察使用非致命武器有疑问，
16:24
what on earth would make you think
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究竟什么能使你觉得
16:26
it's going to be better with military personnel?
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军人使用会更好呢？
16:30
The last thing that I would just like to say,
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我要说的最后一件事情，
16:33
when I'm talking to the police
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当我和警察说
16:35
about what a perfect non-lethal weapon would look like,
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关于一个完美的非致命武器的时候
16:37
they almost inevitably say the same thing.
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他们几乎毫无例外地说同一件事
16:39
They say, "Well, it's got to be something that's nasty enough
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他们说，”这将是肮脏的事情
16:42
that people don't want to be hit with this weapon.
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人们不想被这种武器击中
16:44
So if you threaten to use it,
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如果你用它去恐吓，
16:46
people are going to comply with it,
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人们遵守
16:49
but it's also going to be something
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但是这将
16:51
that doesn't leave any lasting effects."
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不会有持久的效果”
16:55
In other words, your perfect non-lethal weapon
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也就是说，你的完美的非致命武器
16:58
is something that's perfect for abuse.
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是完美的用来虐待
17:00
What would these guys have done
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这些人可以做什么
17:02
if they'd had access to Tasers
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如果他们有使用高压眩晕枪的权利
17:04
or to a manned, portable version
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或者是一个人性化的，便携式的
17:06
of the Active Denial System --
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主动拒绝系统--
17:08
a small heat ray that you can use on people
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一个你可以用来射击人们的小的热射线
17:11
and not worry about it.
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对它并不担心
17:13
So I think, yes, there may be ways
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所以我认为，是的，肯定会有办法
17:16
that non-lethal weapons are going to be great in these situations,
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非致命武器在这种环境下会将会很有效
17:18
but there's also a whole heap of problems
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但是这里还是有一堆的问题
17:20
that need to be considered as well.
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需要被考虑到
17:22
Thanks very much.
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非常感谢
17:24
(Applause)
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（掌声）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Stephen Coleman - EthicistStephen Coleman studies applied ethics, particularly the ethics of military and police force, and their application to human rights.
Why you should listen
Dr. Stephen Coleman is Senior Lecturer in Ethics and Leadership and Vincent Fairfax Foundation Fellow in the School of Humanities and Social Sciences, UNSW@ADFA.
Coleman works in a diverse range of areas in applied ethics, including military ethics, police ethics, medical ethics, and the practical applications of human rights. He has published and presented in various forms in Australia, the United States, the United Kingdom, New Zealand and Hong Kong. He recently spent an academic year as the Resident Fellow at the Stockdale Center for Ethical Leadership at the United States Naval Academy, where he was part of a large research project examining the ethical implications of various new and developing military technologies. This project helped to brief the Department of Defense, the US Congress and the White House on these issues.
He can also make balloon and origami animals, juggle, breathe fire and ride a unicycle, though not all at the same time.
Stephen Coleman | Speaker | TED.com