Mission Blue II
Anote Tong: My country will be underwater soon -- unless we work together
安诺 汤: 国家兴亡，匹夫有责
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对于基里巴斯人来说，气候变化是毋庸置疑的。因为海平面上升，这个低海拔的太平洋岛国很可能将会被海水淹没。在与克里斯安德森的谈话中，基里巴斯总统汤安诺讨论了有关国家现有的气候灾难以及陷入危机的未来。“为了解决气候变化问题，我们必须做出牺牲，”他说。“我们必须告诉人们这个世界已经变了。
Anote Tong - President of the Republic of Kiribati
Anote Tong has built worldwide awareness of the potentially devastating impacts of climate change. Full bio
Anote Tong has built worldwide awareness of the potentially devastating impacts of climate change. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
Chris Anderson: Perhaps we could start
by just telling us about your country.
by just telling us about your country.
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克里斯安德森： 要么我们先从聊聊你的国家开始吧
00:16
It's three dots there on the globe.
Those dots are pretty huge.
Those dots are pretty huge.
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就是地球上的那三个点，我觉得那些点都挺大的
00:20
I think each one
is about the size of California.
is about the size of California.
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我觉得每个点应该和加利福尼亚州差不多大
00:23
Tell us about Kiribati.
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给我们讲讲基里巴斯吧
00:25
Anote Tong: Well, let me first begin
by saying how deeply grateful I am
by saying how deeply grateful I am
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汤安诺：那么，首先，
请允许我表达一下我真挚的谢意
请允许我表达一下我真挚的谢意
00:29
for this opportunity to share my story
with people who do care.
with people who do care.
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可以拥有这个机会和真正关心的人分享我的故事
00:33
I think I've been sharing my story with
a lot of people who don't care too much.
a lot of people who don't care too much.
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我认为一直在和很多不太关心的人分享我的故事
00:39
But Kiribati is comprised
of three groups of islands:
of three groups of islands:
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但是基里巴斯分成三部分岛屿
00:43
the Gilbert Group on the west,
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西边的吉尔伯特岛屿群
00:46
we have the Phoenix Islands in the middle,
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中间的菲尼克斯岛屿群
00:49
and the Line Islands in the east.
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和东边的莱恩岛屿群
00:53
And quite frankly, Kiribati
is perhaps the only country
is perhaps the only country
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而且，说实话，基里巴斯大概是唯一真正
00:57
that is actually
in the four corners of the world,
in the four corners of the world,
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在世界四个角落的国家
00:59
because we are in the Northern Hemisphere,
in the Southern Hemisphere,
in the Southern Hemisphere,
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因为我们既在北半球，又在南半球
01:02
and also in the east and the west
of the International Date Line.
of the International Date Line.
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还在国际日界线的东西两侧
01:05
These islands are entirely
made up of coral atolls,
made up of coral atolls,
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这些岛屿全部是由珊瑚环礁组成的
01:12
and on average about
two meters above sea level.
two meters above sea level.
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平均大约在海平面两厘米处
01:17
And so this is what we have.
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这就是我的国家的情况
01:20
Usually not more
than two kilometers in width.
than two kilometers in width.
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通常宽度不超过两千米
01:25
And so, on many occasions,
I've been asked by people,
I've been asked by people,
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所以，人们经常问我
01:28
"You know, you're suffering,
why don't you move back?"
why don't you move back?"
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“你知道，如果你有困难，
为什么不搬回来呢？”
为什么不搬回来呢？”
01:30
They don't understand.
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他们不明白
01:32
They have no concept
of what it is that's involved.
of what it is that's involved.
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他们根本不清楚其中蕴含着什么
01:35
With the rising sea, they say,
"Well, you can move back."
"Well, you can move back."
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随着海平面的上升，
他们说，“你可以搬回来的”
他们说，“你可以搬回来的”
01:39
And so this is what I tell them.
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我唯有告诉他们，
01:41
If we move back, we will fall off
on the other side of the ocean. OK?
on the other side of the ocean. OK?
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如果我们搬回来了，
我们会掉进海洋的另一端，明白吗？
我们会掉进海洋的另一端，明白吗？
01:45
But these are the kinds of issues
that people don't understand.
that people don't understand.
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但是人们不明白这些问题
01:50
CA: So certainly this is
just a picture of fragility there.
just a picture of fragility there.
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克里斯安德森：很明显地，
你们的国家有燃眉之急。
你们的国家有燃眉之急。
01:54
When was it that you yourself realized
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你是什么时候意识到
01:57
that there might be
impending peril for your country?
impending peril for your country?
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你的国家危险将至了呢？
02:00
AT: Well, the story of climate change
has been one that has been going on
has been one that has been going on
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汤安诺：嗯，全球变暖的问题已经
02:04
for quite a number of decades.
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出现好几十年了
02:05
And when I came into office in 2003,
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当我在2003年上任的时候
02:10
I began talking about climate change
at the United Nations General Assembly,
at the United Nations General Assembly,
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我开始在联合国大会讲全球变暖
02:14
but not with so much passion,
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但是没有这么多的激情
02:17
because then there was still
this controversy among the scientists
this controversy among the scientists
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因为科学家之间还在辩论
02:21
whether it was human-induced,
whether it was real or it wasn't.
whether it was real or it wasn't.
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人类活动和全球变暖是否有关系，
全球变暖是否真正存在
全球变暖是否真正存在
02:26
But I think that that debate
was fairly much concluded in 2007
was fairly much concluded in 2007
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但是，我认为那个辩论在2007年基本结束了
02:32
with the Fourth Assessment
Report of the IPCC,
Report of the IPCC,
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政府间气候变化专门委员会做出第四次评估报告
02:38
which made a categorical statement
that it is real, it's human-induced,
that it is real, it's human-induced,
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论证全球变暖的真实性和与人类活动的必然联系
02:45
and it's predicting
some very serious scenarios
some very serious scenarios
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而且，它所估测的结果是非常严重的
02:48
for countries like mine.
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对于我的祖国那样的国家
02:51
And so that's when I got very serious.
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所以，我必须很认真，
02:54
In the past, I talked about it.
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过去，我谈论它
02:58
We were worried.
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我们很担心
03:00
But when the scenarios,
the predictions came in 2007,
the predictions came in 2007,
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但在2007年那些预测出来的时候
03:03
it became a real issue for us.
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它于我们而言成了一个真实的问题
03:06
CA: Now, those predictions are,
I think, that by 2100,
I think, that by 2100,
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克里斯安德森：现在，
我想，预测是，到2100年
我想，预测是，到2100年
03:11
sea levels are forecast to rise
perhaps three feet.
perhaps three feet.
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海平面可能会上升三英尺
03:14
There's scenarios where
it's higher than that, for sure,
it's higher than that, for sure,
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肯定有预测结果比这个还严重
03:17
but what would you say
to a skeptic who said,
to a skeptic who said,
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但是对于一个不相信全球变暖的人说
03:19
"What's three feet?
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“三英尺是算什么？
03:20
You're on average
six feet above sea level.
six feet above sea level.
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人们平均比海平面高六英尺，
03:22
What's the problem?"
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有什么问题呢？”
03:24
AT: Well, I think
it's got to be understood
it's got to be understood
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汤安诺：那么，
我认为人们一定要知道一件事，
我认为人们一定要知道一件事，
03:26
that a marginal rise in sea level
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海平面的每一点上升
03:28
would mean a loss of a lot of land,
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都意味着大片陆地的小时
03:31
because much of the land is low.
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因为大部分陆地都很低
03:34
And quite apart from that,
we are getting the swells at the moment.
we are getting the swells at the moment.
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而且，我们那时会面对浪潮
03:39
So it's not about getting two feet.
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所以不是关于涨两英尺
03:41
I think what many people do not understand
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我认为很多人还不明白
03:44
is they think climate change is something
that is happening in the future.
that is happening in the future.
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是因为他们认为全球变暖是未来会发生的事情
03:51
Well, we're at the very
bottom end of the spectrum.
bottom end of the spectrum.
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我们现在在全世界的最低端
03:53
It's already with us.
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这类事件已经在我们身边发生了
03:55
We have communities
who already have been dislocated.
who already have been dislocated.
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我们有社区必须搬迁，
03:58
They have had to move,
and every parliament session,
and every parliament session,
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他们不得不搬走，
而且每次议会开会，
而且每次议会开会，
04:02
I'm getting complaints
from different communities
from different communities
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我都收到不同社区的抱怨
04:05
asking for assistance to build seawalls,
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要求救助建立海堤
04:08
to see what we can do
about the freshwater lens
about the freshwater lens
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看看我们在淡水透镜这方面可以做些什么
04:10
because it's being destroyed,
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因为它正在被毁灭
04:12
and so in my trips
to the different islands,
to the different islands,
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在我去不同岛屿的旅行中
04:15
I'm seeing evidence of communities
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我看到了一个个面临着大量的
04:18
which are now having to cope
with the loss of food crops,
with the loss of food crops,
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食物损失和淡水透镜污染
04:21
the contamination of the water lenses,
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的社区
04:25
and I see these communities
perhaps leaving, having to relocate,
perhaps leaving, having to relocate,
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我还看到了那些社区中的人在五到十年之内
04:29
within five to 10 years.
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不得不离开，不得不重建社区
04:32
CA: And then, I think the country
suffered its first cyclone,
suffered its first cyclone,
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克里斯安德森：我想，之后，
你的祖国迎来了史上第一次飓风
你的祖国迎来了史上第一次飓风
04:36
and this is connected, yes?
What happened here?
What happened here?
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这两件事情是有关联的，
对吧？那里发生了什么？
对吧？那里发生了什么？
04:39
AT: Well, we're on the equator,
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汤安诺：嗯，我们在赤道上
04:42
and I'm sure many of you understand
that when you're on the equator,
that when you're on the equator,
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而且我确定大多数人都清楚，赤道
04:46
it's supposed to be in the doldrums.
We're not supposed to get the cyclones.
We're not supposed to get the cyclones.
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应该是无风的，沉闷的，不应该出现飓风。
04:50
We create them, and then we send them
either north or south.
either north or south.
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是我们造成了它们，
也是我们把它们送到南北两侧
也是我们把它们送到南北两侧
04:53
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
04:54
But they aren't supposed to come back.
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但是它们不应该回到赤道
04:56
But for the first time,
at the beginning of this year,
at the beginning of this year,
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在今年年初，第一次，
04:59
the Cyclone Pam,
which destroyed Vanuatu,
which destroyed Vanuatu,
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帕姆飓风摧毁了瓦努阿图
05:02
and in the process,
the very edges of it actually touched
the very edges of it actually touched
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而在过程中，帕姆飓风的边缘确实碰触了
05:06
our two southernmost islands,
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我们最南侧的两个岛屿
05:08
and all of Tuvalu was underwater
when Hurricane Pam struck.
when Hurricane Pam struck.
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而且帕姆飓风来临时，图瓦卢全部都被淹没
05:14
But for our two southernmost islands,
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但是，对于我们最南部的两个岛屿
05:17
we had waves come over half the island,
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海浪覆盖大半个岛屿
05:21
and so this has never happened before.
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而这是史上首次
05:23
It's a new experience.
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这时一个全新的体验
05:25
And I've just come back
from my own constituency,
from my own constituency,
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我刚刚从我自己的选区回来
05:30
and I've seen these beautiful trees
which had been there for decades,
which had been there for decades,
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我看到了这些美丽的，屹立数十年的树木
05:34
they've been totally destroyed.
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它们尽数被毁灭了
05:36
So this is what's happening,
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这就是正在发生的
05:37
but when we talk
about the rising sea level,
about the rising sea level,
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但是当我们谈论海平面上升的时候
05:41
we think it's something
that happens gradually.
that happens gradually.
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我们认为你那是日后会发生的事情
05:44
It comes with the winds,
it comes with the swells,
it comes with the swells,
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它随着风来，随着涨潮来
05:47
and so they can be magnified,
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因此，它们是可以被放大的
05:49
but what we are beginning to witness
is the change in the weather pattern,
is the change in the weather pattern,
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但是，当我们真正开始
亲眼看到最严峻的挑战
亲眼看到最严峻的挑战
05:55
which is perhaps the more urgent challenge
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-天气的变化
05:58
that we will face sooner
than perhaps the rising sea level.
than perhaps the rising sea level.
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而这是我们将在海平面上升之前所要面对的
06:03
CA: So the country
is already seeing effects now.
is already seeing effects now.
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克里斯安德森：所以你的国家
已经在见证气候变化的影响了
已经在见证气候变化的影响了
06:06
As you look forward,
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从你的角度来说，向未来展望，
06:08
what are your options
as a country, as a nation?
as a country, as a nation?
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你觉得作为一个国家，有怎样的选择呢？
06:12
AT: Well, I've been telling
this story every year.
this story every year.
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汤安诺：我今年不断地把这个故事告诉别人
06:15
I think I visit a number of --
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我个人认为，我拜访了大量的.......
06:16
I've been traveling the world
to try and get people to understand.
to try and get people to understand.
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我一直在环游全球努力让人们明白
06:21
We have a plan, we think we have a plan.
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我们有一个计划，我们认为我们有一个计划
06:24
And on one occasion,
I think I spoke in Geneva
I think I spoke in Geneva
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在某个场合，我认为我在日内瓦讲述
06:27
and there was a gentleman
who was interviewing me
who was interviewing me
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有位在采访我的先生
06:31
on something like this,
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问了我相似的问题
06:33
and I said, "We are looking
at floating islands,"
at floating islands,"
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然后我说：“我们在关注正在漂浮的岛屿。”
06:36
and he thought it was funny,
but somebody said,
but somebody said,
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他觉得这很有趣，但是有人说了
06:38
"No, this is not funny.
These people are looking for solutions."
These people are looking for solutions."
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“不，这不是一个玩笑。
这些人在寻找措施。”
这些人在寻找措施。”
06:42
And so I have been looking
at floating islands.
at floating islands.
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所以说，我一直在观察正在漂浮的岛屿
06:45
The Japanese are interested
in building floating islands.
in building floating islands.
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日本人对建造漂浮的岛屿很感兴趣
06:49
But, as a country,
we have made a commitment
we have made a commitment
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但是，作为一个国家，
我们做出这样的一个承诺，
我们做出这样的一个承诺，
06:52
that no matter what happens,
we will try as much as possible
we will try as much as possible
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无论发生什么，我们都会倾尽全力
06:56
to stay and continue to exist as a nation.
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保持，并继续以一个国家的形式而存在
07:00
What that will take,
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无论我们要付出什么代价
07:02
it's going to be
something quite significant,
something quite significant,
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这都会是很重要的事情
07:05
very, very substantial.
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是非常重大的事情
07:07
Either we live on floating islands,
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不管我们是居住在漂浮的岛屿上
07:09
or we have to build up the islands
to continue to stay out of the water
to continue to stay out of the water
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还是我们为了继续留在陆地上而要建岛屿
07:13
as the sea level rises
and as the storms get more severe.
and as the storms get more severe.
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随着海平面的上升，随着风暴越来越严重
07:18
But even that, it's going to be
very, very difficult
very, very difficult
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但是，即使如此，得到我们所需要的资源
07:20
to get the kind of resourcing
that we would need.
that we would need.
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都非常非常艰难
07:23
CA: And then the only recourse
is some form of forced migration.
is some form of forced migration.
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克里斯安德森：
唯一的办法是某种形式的逼迫性迁移
唯一的办法是某种形式的逼迫性迁移
07:27
AT: Well, we are also looking at that
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汤安诺：嗯，那也是一个选择
07:29
because in the event
that nothing comes forward
that nothing comes forward
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因为到目前为止，国际社会
07:32
from the international community,
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还没有什么其它举措。
07:34
we are preparing,
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我们在做准备
07:35
we don't want to be caught
like what's happening in Europe.
like what's happening in Europe.
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我们不想像欧洲一样手无足措
07:38
OK? We don't want to mass migrate
at some point in time.
at some point in time.
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明白吗？我们不想在某个时刻大量移民
07:41
We want to be able
to give the people the choice today,
to give the people the choice today,
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我们想现在就给那些想移民的人们
07:44
those who choose
and want to do that, to migrate.
and want to do that, to migrate.
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移民的选择
07:48
We don't want something to happen
that they are forced to migrate
that they are forced to migrate
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我们不想在没有准备的情况下
07:53
without having been prepared to do so.
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让任何逼迫他们移民的事件发生
07:56
Of course, our culture is very different,
our society is very different,
our society is very different,
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当然了，我们的文化很不同，
我们的社会也很不同
我们的社会也很不同
07:59
and once we migrate
into a different environment,
into a different environment,
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一旦我们移民到一个陌生的环境
08:01
a different culture,
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一种不同的文化
08:03
there's a whole lot
of adjustments that are required.
of adjustments that are required.
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需要很多的调整
08:06
CA: Well, there's forced migration
in your country's past,
in your country's past,
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克里斯安德森：过去，
你的国家的人民曾经被迫迁移
你的国家的人民曾经被迫迁移
08:09
and I think just this week,
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而且，我认为就在这周
08:11
just yesterday
or the day before yesterday,
or the day before yesterday,
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就在昨天或者是前天
08:14
you visited these people.
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你拜访了那些人
08:16
What happened here? What's the story here?
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那里发生了什么？有什么故事吗？
08:18
AT: Yes, and I'm sorry,
I think somebody was asking
I think somebody was asking
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汤安诺：是的，而且我很抱歉，我认为有人问
08:21
why we were sneaking off
to visit that place.
to visit that place.
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我们为什么要偷偷摸摸地拜访那里
08:24
I had a very good reason, because we have
a community of Kiribati people
a community of Kiribati people
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我有一个很好的原因，
因为有一群基里巴斯人
因为有一群基里巴斯人
08:28
living in that part
of the Solomon Islands,
of the Solomon Islands,
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居住在所罗门群岛上
08:32
but these were people who were relocated
from the Phoenix Islands, in fact,
from the Phoenix Islands, in fact,
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但是实际上，在二十世纪六十年代
08:36
in the 1960s.
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那些人是改住在菲尼克斯群岛上的
08:37
There was serious drought, and the people
could not continue to live on the island,
could not continue to live on the island,
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那里有很严重的干旱，
而那些人不能继续居住在那个岛屿上 了
而那些人不能继续居住在那个岛屿上 了
08:42
and so they were moved
to live here in the Solomon Islands.
to live here in the Solomon Islands.
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所以他们搬到了所罗门群岛上
08:45
And so yesterday it was very interesting
to meet with these people.
to meet with these people.
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所以，昨天和那些人的见面时一件很有趣的事情
08:48
They didn't know who I was.
They hadn't heard of me.
They hadn't heard of me.
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他们不知道我是谁，他们没有听说过我
08:51
Some of them later recognized me,
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有些人后来认出我了
08:53
but I think they were very happy.
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但是我认为他们非常高兴
08:57
Later they really wanted to have
the opportunity to welcome me formally.
the opportunity to welcome me formally.
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之后，他们很想有正是欢迎我的机会
09:01
But I think what I saw yesterday
was very interesting
was very interesting
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但是，我认为，我昨天的所见很有趣
09:05
because here I see our people.
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因为我见到了我祖国的人民
09:07
I spoke in our language, and of course
they spoke back, they replied,
they spoke back, they replied,
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我说的是我自己的雨燕，
当然，他们也回答了，也回复了
当然，他们也回答了，也回复了
09:12
but their accent, they are beginning
not to be able to speak Kiribati properly.
not to be able to speak Kiribati properly.
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但是它们的口音，
他们开始不能正确地说基里巴斯语了
他们开始不能正确地说基里巴斯语了
09:17
I saw them, there was
this lady with red teeth.
this lady with red teeth.
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我看到他们，那里有有着红色牙齿的女士
09:20
She was chewing betel nuts,
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她在吃槟榔
09:22
and it's not something we do in Kiribati.
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而我们在基里巴斯是不会这么做的
09:24
We don't chew betel nuts.
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我们不吃槟榔
09:27
I met also a family who have married
the local people here,
the local people here,
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我还见到了一个娶了当地人的家庭
09:33
and so this is what is happening.
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所以，这就是正在发生的
09:37
As you go into another community,
there are bound to be changes.
there are bound to be changes.
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当你踏入另一个社会，你就一定会有所改变
09:40
There is bound to be
a certain loss of identity,
a certain loss of identity,
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而这种改变意味着一种身份的丢失
09:45
and this is what we will be
looking for in the future
looking for in the future
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如果我们移民，在我们移民的那一刻，这就是
09:48
if and when we do migrate.
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我们未来要面对的
09:51
CA: It must have been
just an extraordinarily emotional day
just an extraordinarily emotional day
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克里斯安德森：
那一定是一个不同寻常的感性的一天
那一定是一个不同寻常的感性的一天
09:54
because of these questions about identity,
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由于那些关于身份的问题
09:57
the joy of seeing you and perhaps
an emphasized sense of what they had lost.
an emphasized sense of what they had lost.
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看到你的那种高兴，也许，
更强烈地意识到他们损失了什么
更强烈地意识到他们损失了什么
10:02
And it's very inspiring to hear you say
you're going to fight to the end
you're going to fight to the end
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而听到你说你会一直奋斗到最后，
会一直让你的祖国不改变当前的位置
会一直让你的祖国不改变当前的位置
10:05
to try to preserve
the nation in a location.
the nation in a location.
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是一件很令人有所感慨的事情
10:10
AT: This is our wish.
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汤安诺：这是我们的愿望
10:11
Nobody wants ever to leave their home,
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没有人想离开他们的家
10:14
and so it's been
a very difficult decision for me.
a very difficult decision for me.
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所以这对于我而言是一个很困难的决定
10:17
As a leader, you don't make plans
to leave your island, your home,
to leave your island, your home,
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作为一个领导者，
你不会计划离开你的岛屿，你的家
你不会计划离开你的岛屿，你的家
10:23
and so I've been asked
on a number of occasions,
on a number of occasions,
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我时常被被问，
10:25
"So how do you feel?"
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“那么，你有什么感受？”
10:26
And it doesn't feel good at all.
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我感觉一点都不好
10:29
It's an emotional thing,
and I've tried to live with it,
and I've tried to live with it,
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这是一件感性的事情，
我尝试这容忍它
我尝试这容忍它
10:33
and I know that on occasions, I'm accused
of not trying to solve the problem
of not trying to solve the problem
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我知道在那些场合上，
我被人指责，说我没有努力解决问题
我被人指责，说我没有努力解决问题
10:38
because I can't solve the problem.
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是因为我不能解决它
10:40
It's something that's got
to be done collectively.
to be done collectively.
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这是发生过很多次的事情
10:43
Climate change is a global phenomenon,
and as I've often argued,
and as I've often argued,
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全球变暖是一件全球性的现象，
而且，如同我经常讲的一样
而且，如同我经常讲的一样
10:49
unfortunately, the countries,
when we come to the United Nations --
when we come to the United Nations --
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不幸的是，这些国家，
当我们来到联合国的时候
当我们来到联合国的时候
10:53
I was in a meeting with
the Pacific Island Forum countries
the Pacific Island Forum countries
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我在太平洋岛屿论坛上参加一个会议
10:58
where Australia and New Zealand
are also members,
are also members,
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澳大利亚和新西兰也都在场
11:01
and we had an argument.
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1736
然后我们有一场争论
11:02
There was a bit of a story in the news
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新闻上有讲述播过一小部分
11:05
because they were arguing
that to cut emissions,
that to cut emissions,
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因为他们在谈论减少温室气体
11:09
it would be something
that they're unable to do
that they're unable to do
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是一件他们做不到的事情
11:12
because it would affect the industries.
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因为它会影响工业
11:15
And so here I was saying,
202
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所以我说
11:16
OK, I hear you,
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好的，我听到了
11:19
I understand what you're saying,
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我能理解你所说的
11:20
but try also to understand what I'm saying
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但是试着理解我所说的
11:23
because if you do not cut your emissions,
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因为如果你不减少你们国家的温室气体
11:25
then our survival is on the line.
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我们就会命悬一线
11:28
And so it's a matter for you
to weigh this, these moral issues.
to weigh this, these moral issues.
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所以你们应该掂量掂量这些道德问题
11:32
It's about industry as opposed to
the survival of a people.
the survival of a people.
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这是关于工业和人们的生存
11:36
CA: You know, I ask you yesterday
what made you angry,
what made you angry,
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克里斯安德森：你知道的，
我昨天问你什么惹你生气
我昨天问你什么惹你生气
11:39
and you said, "I don't get angry."
But then you paused.
But then you paused.
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然后你说：“我不会生气的。”
但是之后你停顿了一下
但是之后你停顿了一下
11:42
I think this made you angry.
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我认为这就是惹你生气的事情
11:44
AT: I'd refer you to my earlier
statement at the United Nations.
statement at the United Nations.
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汤安诺：我想你是指
我之前在联合国发表的观点
我之前在联合国发表的观点
11:49
I was very angry, very frustrated
and then depressed.
and then depressed.
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我十分生气，很沮丧，也很失望
11:54
There was a sense of futility
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觉得毫无希望
11:56
that we are fighting a fight
that we have no hope of winning.
that we have no hope of winning.
216
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5456
就像我们在打一没有胜算的仗
12:01
I had to change my approach.
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我不得不改变的我的途径
12:03
I had to become more reasonable
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我不得不变得更加合理些
12:05
because I thought people would listen
to somebody who was rational,
to somebody who was rational,
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因为我认为人们会聆听理智的人，
12:09
but I remain radically rational,
whatever that is.
whatever that is.
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但是我一直保持彻底地有理智，
无论那是什么意思。
无论那是什么意思。
12:11
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
12:13
CA: Now, a core part
of your nation's identity is fishing.
of your nation's identity is fishing.
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克里斯安德森：现在，
渔业是你们国家身份的核心，
渔业是你们国家身份的核心，
12:17
I think you said pretty much everyone
is involved in fishing in some way.
is involved in fishing in some way.
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你说过大概你们国家所有人
都在某个程度上和渔业有关
都在某个程度上和渔业有关
12:20
AT: Well, we eat fish
every day, every day,
every day, every day,
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汤安诺：嗯，我们每天，每天都吃鱼
12:23
and I think there is no doubt
that our rate of consumption of fish
that our rate of consumption of fish
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而且，我认为，毫无疑问，
我们国家的鱼的消费率
我们国家的鱼的消费率
12:28
is perhaps the highest in the world.
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也许是全球最高的
12:30
We don't have a lot of livestock,
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2456
我们没有很多的牲畜
12:32
so it's fish that we depend on.
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所以我们依靠的是鱼
12:35
CA: So you're dependent on fish,
both at the local level
both at the local level
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3136
克里斯安德森：所以，
你们在地方上和国家
你们在地方上和国家
12:38
and for the revenues
that the country receives
that the country receives
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在全球金枪鱼业的收入上
12:41
from the global fishing business for tuna,
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依赖的都是鱼
12:43
and yet despite that, a few years ago
you took a very radical step.
you took a very radical step.
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4896
除了那个，几年前，
你做了很理智的一个决定
你做了很理智的一个决定
12:48
Can you tell us about that?
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你能讲讲那个吗？
12:50
I think something happened
right here in the Phoenix Islands.
right here in the Phoenix Islands.
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3336
我觉得，就在这里，
在菲尼克斯岛屿上，有件事情发生了
在菲尼克斯岛屿上，有件事情发生了
12:53
AT: Let me give some of the background
of what fish means for us.
of what fish means for us.
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汤安诺：让我先讲讲鱼对于我们来说意味着什么
12:58
We have one of the largest
tuna fisheries remaining in the world.
tuna fisheries remaining in the world.
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我们有世界上最大的金枪鱼渔场之一
13:02
In the Pacific, I think we own
something like 60 percent
something like 60 percent
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在太平洋上，我认为我们拥有大概百分之六十的
13:05
of the remaining tuna fisheries,
238
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现在仍存在的金枪鱼渔场
13:07
and it remains relatively healthy
for some species, but not all.
for some species, but not all.
239
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而且，它对有些物种来说是相对健康的，
但不是所有的物种
但不是所有的物种
13:11
And Kiribati is one of the three
major resource owners,
major resource owners,
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而基里巴斯是三个主要资源，
金枪鱼资源
金枪鱼资源
13:18
tuna resource owners.
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拥有者中的一个
13:19
And at the moment, we have been getting
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在那个时候，我们的总收入的百分之八十到
13:23
something like 80 to 90
percent of our revenue
percent of our revenue
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百分之九十都
13:26
from access fees, license fees.
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使用费和执照费
13:28
CA: Of your national revenue.
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克里斯安德森：国家总收入
13:30
AT: National revenue,
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汤安诺：是的，国家总收入
13:32
which drives everything that we do
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它主宰着我们在政府，在医院，
在学校和其他一切我们有的
在学校和其他一切我们有的
13:35
in governments, hospitals,
schools and what have you.
schools and what have you.
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地方所做的一切事情
13:39
But we decided to close this,
and it was a very difficult decision.
and it was a very difficult decision.
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但是我们决定关了这个渔场，
而且，这是一个非常艰难的决定
而且，这是一个非常艰难的决定
13:44
I can assure you, politically,
locally, it was not easy,
locally, it was not easy,
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我可以告诉你，无论在政治上还是在地方上，
这都是一个很困难的决定
这都是一个很困难的决定
13:50
but I was convinced that we had to do this
251
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但是，我深信，为了确保渔业保持稳定
13:54
in order to ensure
that the fishery remains sustainable.
that the fishery remains sustainable.
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我们不得不这么做
13:58
There had been some indications
that some of the species,
that some of the species,
253
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有一些征兆，有的物种
14:01
in particular the bigeye,
was under serious threat.
was under serious threat.
254
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4136
尤其是大眼鲹，岌岌可危
14:05
The yellowfin was also heavily fished.
255
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3376
黄鳍也被过度捕捉
14:09
Skipjack remains healthy.
256
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1736
飞鱼保持健康
14:10
And so we had to do something like that,
and so that was the reason I did that.
and so that was the reason I did that.
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所以，我们不得不做那样的事情，
这就是我这么做的原因
这就是我这么做的原因
14:15
Another reason why I did that
258
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3896
另一个原因
14:19
was because I had been asking
the international community
the international community
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是因为国际上一直在问我
14:24
that in order to deal with climate change,
in order to fight climate change,
in order to fight climate change,
260
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为了解决全球变暖，为了对抗全球变暖
14:28
there has got to be sacrifice,
there has got to be commitment.
there has got to be commitment.
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一定会有牺牲，一定会有承诺
14:32
So in asking the international community
to make a sacrifice,
to make a sacrifice,
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所以，在请国际上做出牺牲之时
14:38
I thought we ourselves
need to make that sacrifice.
need to make that sacrifice.
263
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我觉得我们自己也要做出牺牲
14:41
And so we made the sacrifice.
264
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1816
所以，我们做了那个牺牲
14:42
And forgoing commercial fishing
265
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而且放弃菲尼克斯群岛保护区
14:47
in the Phoenix Islands protected area
266
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2608
的商业性渔业
14:50
would mean a loss of revenue.
267
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意味着大量的损失
14:52
We are still trying to assess
what that loss would be
what that loss would be
268
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我们仍在努力评估着损失会是什么
14:54
because we actually closed it off
at the beginning of this year,
at the beginning of this year,
269
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5235
因为我们真的在今年年初关了它
15:00
and so we will see by the end of this year
270
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所以，今年年末我们会看到
15:02
what it means in terms
of the lost revenue.
of the lost revenue.
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我们的收入到底损失了多少
15:05
CA: So there's so many things
playing into this.
playing into this.
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克里斯安德森：
所以有很多的事情涉及到了这个问题
所以有很多的事情涉及到了这个问题
15:08
On the one hand,
it may prompt healthier fisheries.
it may prompt healthier fisheries.
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在另一方面，它可能促进了更健康的渔场
15:15
I mean, how much are you able
to move the price up
to move the price up
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我的意思是，你能把所剩下的部分的价格
15:17
that you charge for the remaining areas?
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提高多少？
15:20
AT: The negotiations
have been very difficult,
have been very difficult,
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汤安诺：谈判很艰难
15:24
but we have managed
to raise the cost of a vessel day.
to raise the cost of a vessel day.
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但是我们提高了船只进入渔场捕一天鱼的价格
15:28
For any vessel
to come in to fish for a day,
to come in to fish for a day,
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对于任何要进入渔场捕一天鱼的船只
15:31
we have raised the fee from --
it was $6,000 and $8,000,
it was $6,000 and $8,000,
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我们把价格从六千美元提升到了八千美元
15:34
now to $10,000, $12,000 per vessel day.
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现在到达每只船只每天一万美元，一万二美元
15:39
And so there's been
that significant increase.
that significant increase.
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所以，价格提高了很多
15:42
But at the same time,
what's important to note is,
what's important to note is,
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但是于此同时，
我所要说的更重要的是
我所要说的更重要的是
15:47
whereas in the past these fishing boats
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在过去，这些渔船
15:51
might be fishing in a day
and maybe catch 10 tons,
and maybe catch 10 tons,
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可能一天内能捕到十吨鱼
15:55
now they're catching maybe 100 tons
because they've become so efficient.
because they've become so efficient.
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他们现在可能能捕到一百吨鱼，
因为它们变得很有效率
因为它们变得很有效率
15:59
And so we've got to respond likewise.
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因此，我们这样回应它们
16:02
We've got to be very, very careful
because the technology has so improved.
because the technology has so improved.
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我们要非常非常小心，
因为科技进步了很多
因为科技进步了很多
16:06
There was a time when the Brazilian fleet
moved from the Atlantic to the Pacific.
moved from the Atlantic to the Pacific.
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一次，巴西的船队要从大西洋到太平洋来
16:11
They couldn't.
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他们不能
16:12
They started experimenting
if they could, per se.
if they could, per se.
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他们开始试验可不可以
16:16
But now they've got ways of doing it,
and they've become so efficient.
and they've become so efficient.
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但是，现在他们有办法了，
他们变得很有效率
他们变得很有效率
16:21
CA: Can you give us a sense
of what it's like in those negotiations?
of what it's like in those negotiations?
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克里斯安德森：
你能大概给我们透露一下这些谈判是什么样吗？
你能大概给我们透露一下这些谈判是什么样吗？
16:24
Because you're up against companies
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因为你是和公司对着干
16:26
that have hundreds of millions
of dollars at stake, essentially.
of dollars at stake, essentially.
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他们面临着失去几百万美元的危险
16:29
How do you hold the line?
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你是怎么坚定不移地坚持下去的呢？
16:33
Is there any advice you can give
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对于那些在和同样的公司对着干的
16:35
to other leaders who are dealing
with the same companies
with the same companies
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想让你的国家最大限度地获利
16:38
about how to get
the most for your country,
the most for your country,
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得到最大限度的鱼
16:42
get the most for the fish?
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的领导，你有什么建议吗？
16:46
What advice would you give?
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你会给出什么建议呢？
16:48
AT: Well, I think we focus
too often on licensing
too often on licensing
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汤安诺：我认为，因为我们从执照费上
16:54
in order to get the rate of return,
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赚到的钱是所捕的鱼的总价值的百分之十，
如果是在码头卖鱼的话
如果是在码头卖鱼的话
16:56
because what we are getting
from license fees
from license fees
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而不是在零售商店里卖鱼
16:59
is about 10 percent
of the landed value of the catch
of the landed value of the catch
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所以我们为了保持利益
17:01
on the side of the wharf,
not in the retail shops.
not in the retail shops.
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在执照费上关注了很多
17:04
And we only get about 10 percent.
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而且我们只要百分之十
17:08
What we have been trying
to do over the years
to do over the years
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我们这些年一直想取得的是
17:11
is actually to increase
our participation in the industry,
our participation in the industry,
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真正的增加我们在工业中
17:15
in the harvesting, in the processing,
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在收获中，在过程中
17:17
and eventually, hopefully, the marketing.
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和，最好是，在市场中的参与
17:19
They're not easy to penetrate,
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要想达到并不容易
17:23
but we are working towards that,
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但是我们在向那个方向努力
17:25
and yes, the answer would be to enhance.
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而且，是的，答案是去增强
17:28
In order to increase our rate of return,
we have to become more involved.
we have to become more involved.
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为了增加我们的回报率，我们要参与得更多
17:32
And so we've started doing that,
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所以我们开始这么做
17:35
and we have to restructure the industry.
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4256
我们也开始调整工业
17:40
We've got to tell these people
that the world has changed.
that the world has changed.
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3376
我们可以告诉人们，世界已经改变了
17:43
Now we want to produce the fish ourselves.
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2416
现在我们想自己产鱼
17:46
CA: And meanwhile,
for your local fishermen,
for your local fishermen,
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2096
克里斯安德森：与此同时，
对于当地的捕鱼人
对于当地的捕鱼人
17:48
they are still able to fish,
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他们还可以继续捕鱼
17:51
but what is business like for them?
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但是他们的生意怎么样？
17:53
Is it getting harder?
Are the waters depleted?
Are the waters depleted?
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是不是越来越难？水是不是被用光了？
17:56
Or is that being run
on a sustainable basis?
on a sustainable basis?
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3456
或者没有稳定的收入了？
17:59
AT: For the artisanal fishery,
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汤安诺：对于手工渔业
18:01
we do not participate
in the commercial fishing activity
in the commercial fishing activity
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我们没有在广告宣传上面参与
18:04
except only to supply the domestic market.
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3016
除了和市场提供有关系的
18:07
The tuna fishery is really
entirely for the foreign market,
entirely for the foreign market,
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3296
金枪鱼业真的遍及国外市场
18:10
mostly here in the US, Europe, Japan.
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6216
大多在美国，欧洲，日本
18:17
So I am a fisherman, very much,
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4536
所谓我是个捕鱼人，纯正的捕鱼人
18:21
and I used to be able to catch yellowfin.
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我之前可以捉黄鳝
18:24
Now it's very, very rare
to be able to catch yellowfin
to be able to catch yellowfin
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现在，能捉黄鳝的人越来越少
18:27
because they are being lifted
out of the water by the hundreds of tons
out of the water by the hundreds of tons
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3376
因为它们被大型围网捕鱼的人
18:30
by these purse seiners.
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大量地从水中捕出
18:34
CA: So here's a couple
of beautiful girls from your country.
of beautiful girls from your country.
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克里斯安德森：那么，
这里有一些来自你的国家的一些美丽的女孩
这里有一些来自你的国家的一些美丽的女孩
18:39
I mean, as you think about their future,
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我的意思是，当你在考虑她们的未来的时候
18:42
what message would you have for them
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你想和她们说什么？
18:45
and what message
would you have for the world?
would you have for the world?
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3016
同时，你想告诉世界什么？
18:48
AT: Well, I've been telling the world
that we really have to do something
that we really have to do something
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3429
汤安诺：嗯，我最近一直在告诉全世界，
对于全球变暖
对于全球变暖
18:51
about what is happening to the climate
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1843
我们一定要做些什么
18:53
because for us, it's about
the future of these children.
the future of these children.
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因为对于我们来说，
这是我们的孩子的未来
这是我们的孩子的未来
18:56
I have 12 grandchildren, at least.
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1936
我至少有十二个孙子孙女
18:58
I think I have 12, my wife knows.
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2016
我记得我有十二个，我的妻子知道
19:00
(Laughter)
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2216
（笑声）
19:02
And I think I have eight children.
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我觉得我有八个孩子
19:05
It's about their future.
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1256
这有关他们的未来
19:07
Every day I see my grandchildren,
about the same age as these young girls,
about the same age as these young girls,
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3736
每天，当我看见我的孙子孙女的时候，
他们大概和这些女孩子们年龄相仿
他们大概和这些女孩子们年龄相仿
19:10
and I do wonder,
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我就在想
19:13
and I get angry sometimes, yes I do.
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我有时候也会生气，是的，我会生气
19:15
I wonder what is to become of them.
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我就想他们未来会成为什么
19:17
And so it's about them
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所以，我们要告诉所有人
19:20
that we should be telling everybody,
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这事关我们的后代
19:23
that it's not about
their own national interest,
their own national interest,
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2256
而不是关于我们自己国家的利益
19:25
because climate change,
regrettably, unfortunately,
regrettably, unfortunately,
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3656
因为，令人遗憾的是，不幸的是，全球变暖
19:29
is viewed by many countries
as a national problem. It's not.
as a national problem. It's not.
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4096
被很多国家当成各个国家的问题，而这不是
19:33
And this is the argument
we got into recently with our partners,
we got into recently with our partners,
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我们最近和我们的伙伴，澳大利亚人
19:36
the Australians and New Zealanders,
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1696
和新西兰人，有一次争论
19:37
because they said,
"We can't cut any more."
"We can't cut any more."
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3312
因为他们说，“我们再也减不了了”
19:41
This is what one of the leaders,
the Australian leader, said,
the Australian leader, said,
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3616
有一个澳大利亚的代表说
19:44
that we've done our part,
we are cutting back.
we are cutting back.
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4256
我们已经尽力了，我们已经减了
19:49
I said, What about the rest?
Why don't you keep it?
Why don't you keep it?
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3656
我说，那剩下的呢？你为什么不留着呢？
19:52
If you could keep
the rest of your emissions
the rest of your emissions
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2696
如果你可以吧剩下的温室气体
19:55
within your boundaries,
within your borders,
within your borders,
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2296
留在你们国家的国境内
19:57
we'd have no question.
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我们就什么都不问
19:59
You can go ahead as much as you like.
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你愿意生产多少温室气体就生产多少
20:01
But unfortunately,
you're sending it our way,
you're sending it our way,
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2136
但是不幸的是，
你把这些温室气体送到我们这里来了
你把这些温室气体送到我们这里来了
20:03
and it's affecting
the future of our children.
the future of our children.
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而且，它在影响我们后代的未来
20:05
And so surely I think that is the heart
of the problem of climate change today.
of the problem of climate change today.
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5041
我很确信这就是全球变暖问题的关键
20:11
We will be meeting in Paris
at the end of this year,
at the end of this year,
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3056
我们在今年年末都会在巴黎见面
20:14
but until we can think of this
as a global phenomenon,
as a global phenomenon,
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3936
但是，我们要把全球变暖当成一个全球性的现象
20:18
because we create it,
individually, as nations,
individually, as nations,
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而这个现象是由我们，
以个人，或国家的形式造成的
以个人，或国家的形式造成的
20:21
but it affects everybody else,
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1936
但是，它影响着其他所有人
20:23
and yet, we refuse
to do anything about it,
to do anything about it,
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然而，我们什么措施都没有采取
20:26
and we deal with it as a national problem,
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2456
而我们把它当成一个国家的问题
20:29
which it is not -- it is a global issue,
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2096
而它不是，它是一个全球性的问题
20:31
and it's got to be
dealt with collectively.
dealt with collectively.
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它需要被解决
20:35
CA: People are incredibly bad
at responding to graphs and numbers,
at responding to graphs and numbers,
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4336
克里斯安德森：
人们在回应图表和数字方面很差
人们在回应图表和数字方面很差
20:39
and we shut our minds to it.
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3776
我们拒绝思考
20:43
Somehow, to people, we're slightly better
at responding to that sometimes.
at responding to that sometimes.
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6256
不知道为什么，有时候，
在人与人之间的对话中，我们沟通的更好
在人与人之间的对话中，我们沟通的更好
20:49
And it seems like it's
very possible that your nation,
very possible that your nation,
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2936
对于你的国家而言，看起来
20:52
despite, actually because of
the intense problems you face,
the intense problems you face,
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4456
因为你们要面对很困哪的问题
20:57
you may yet be the warning light
to the world that shines most visibly,
to the world that shines most visibly,
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4896
你们也许可以成为全世界最耀眼，最强大的
21:02
most powerfully.
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1976
那盏警告灯
21:04
I just want to thank you,
I'm sure, on behalf of all of us,
I'm sure, on behalf of all of us,
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2817
我只想代表我们所有人来谢谢你
21:06
for your extraordinary leadership
and for being here.
and for being here.
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2494
为你不同寻常的领导力和你来这里做客
21:09
Mr. President, thank you so much.
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总统先生，非常感谢你
21:11
AT: Thank you.
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汤安诺：谢谢你。
21:11
(Applause)
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（鼓掌）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Anote Tong - President of the Republic of KiribatiAnote Tong has built worldwide awareness of the potentially devastating impacts of climate change.
Why you should listen
His Excellency Anote Tong is the fourth President of the Republic of Kiribati. He was first elected as President on 10 July 2003 and subsequently won two more elections in 2007 and in 2012. He is now serving his last term, which will end in mid-2015. Under his leadership, President Anote Tong also holds the portfolio of Head of State and Minister of Foreign Affairs and Immigration.
Anote Tong was born in 1952 on Fanning Island (also known as Tabuaeran) in the Line Islands and is a member of the Kiribati House of Parliament from the constituency of Maiana Island in the central Kiribati group.
Educated in New Zealand and in England at the University of Canterbury and the London School of Economics respectively, President Tong holds a Bachelor of Science and a Master of Economics under his belt.
Since the beginning of his presidency, President Anote Tong has become a strong climate change advocate and has built worldwide awareness of the potentially devastating impacts of climate change.
He has stated on many occasions that Kiribati may cease to exist altogether and that its entire population may need to be resettled not as climate change refugees but as citizens who migrate on merit and with dignity.
With one of the lowest carbon-emission footprints in the world, Tong has often described Kiribati as a “frontline country” that has been among the first to experience dramatic climate change impacts.
As an extraordinary measure to set an example for the rest of the world, President Tong created the Phoenix Islands Protected Area, one of the largest marine protected areas in the world with a size of 408,250 square kilometers which was inscribed as a United Nations World Heritage site in 2008.
President Tong has won a number of awards and recognition that acknowledges his contribution and leadership on climate change and ocean conservation.
Anote Tong | Speaker | TED.com