Mission Blue II
Anote Tong: My country will be underwater soon -- unless we work together
湯安諾: 我的國家快被淹沒了，需要全球合作協助！
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對吉里巴斯人民而言，氣候變遷不再是受爭論、否認或立法反對的話題，而是日常生活要面對的現實問題。這個地處低窪的太平洋島國，拜海平面升高之賜，很快就要被水淹沒。吉里巴斯總統湯安諾在與 TED 總監克里斯·安德森的對談中，討論了他的國家面對氣候災難的現況，以及未來的危險。他說：「為了因應氣候變遷，勢必要有所犧牲，勢必要有所承諾。我們一定要告訴大家世界已經改變。」
Anote Tong - President of the Republic of Kiribati
Anote Tong has built worldwide awareness of the potentially devastating impacts of climate change. Full bio
Anote Tong has built worldwide awareness of the potentially devastating impacts of climate change. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
Chris Anderson: Perhaps we could start
by just telling us about your country.
by just telling us about your country.
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克里斯安德森：
或許我們可以從介紹你的國家開始。
或許我們可以從介紹你的國家開始。
00:16
It's three dots there on the globe.
Those dots are pretty huge.
Those dots are pretty huge.
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就是地球上的那三個點。
這些點還相當大。
這些點還相當大。
00:20
I think each one
is about the size of California.
is about the size of California.
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我想每個點都相當於加州大。
00:23
Tell us about Kiribati.
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跟我們介紹一下吉里巴斯。
00:25
Anote Tong: Well, let me first begin
by saying how deeply grateful I am
by saying how deeply grateful I am
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湯安諾：首先容我表達
深深的感謝之意，
深深的感謝之意，
00:29
for this opportunity to share my story
with people who do care.
with people who do care.
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能有機會對真正關心的人
分享我的故事。
分享我的故事。
00:33
I think I've been sharing my story with
a lot of people who don't care too much.
a lot of people who don't care too much.
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我想我已經對太多
不太關心的人說過我的故事。
不太關心的人說過我的故事。
00:39
But Kiribati is comprised
of three groups of islands:
of three groups of islands:
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吉里巴斯由三個群島組成：
00:43
the Gilbert Group on the west,
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西邊的吉爾伯特群島，
00:46
we have the Phoenix Islands in the middle,
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中間的鳳凰群島，
00:49
and the Line Islands in the east.
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和東邊的萊恩群島。
00:53
And quite frankly, Kiribati
is perhaps the only country
is perhaps the only country
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坦白說，吉里巴斯或許是唯一
00:57
that is actually
in the four corners of the world,
in the four corners of the world,
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佔據世界四個角落的國家，
00:59
because we are in the Northern Hemisphere,
in the Southern Hemisphere,
in the Southern Hemisphere,
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因為我們不但
坐落在北半球、南半球，
坐落在北半球、南半球，
01:02
and also in the east and the west
of the International Date Line.
of the International Date Line.
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也在國際換日線的東西兩邊。
01:05
These islands are entirely
made up of coral atolls,
made up of coral atolls,
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這些島嶼完全由珊瑚環礁組成，
01:12
and on average about
two meters above sea level.
two meters above sea level.
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平均高於海平面二公尺。
01:17
And so this is what we have.
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這就是我們的情況。
01:20
Usually not more
than two kilometers in width.
than two kilometers in width.
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通常不會超過兩公里寬。
01:25
And so, on many occasions,
I've been asked by people,
I've been asked by people,
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所以，很多時候大家問我：
01:28
"You know, you're suffering,
why don't you move back?"
why don't you move back?"
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「你們這麼痛苦，
為什麼你們不往內搬？」
為什麼你們不往內搬？」
01:30
They don't understand.
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他們不懂。
01:32
They have no concept
of what it is that's involved.
of what it is that's involved.
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他們一點都沒概念
這牽涉什麼。
這牽涉什麼。
01:35
With the rising sea, they say,
"Well, you can move back."
"Well, you can move back."
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隨著海平面上升，他們說：
「你們可以往內搬。」
「你們可以往內搬。」
01:39
And so this is what I tell them.
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這是我對他們的回答。
01:41
If we move back, we will fall off
on the other side of the ocean. OK?
on the other side of the ocean. OK?
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如果我們往內搬，
會從另一邊掉到海裡去，好嗎？
會從另一邊掉到海裡去，好嗎？
01:45
But these are the kinds of issues
that people don't understand.
that people don't understand.
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這些就是大家都不了解的問題。
01:50
CA: So certainly this is
just a picture of fragility there.
just a picture of fragility there.
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克：這張照片無疑
顯示出你們的脆弱。
顯示出你們的脆弱。
01:54
When was it that you yourself realized
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你從什麼時候領悟到
01:57
that there might be
impending peril for your country?
impending peril for your country?
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你的國家或許有危險逼近？
02:00
AT: Well, the story of climate change
has been one that has been going on
has been one that has been going on
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湯：氣候變遷的情況
02:04
for quite a number of decades.
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已經流傳了幾十年。
02:05
And when I came into office in 2003,
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我於 2003 年當選總統時，
02:10
I began talking about climate change
at the United Nations General Assembly,
at the United Nations General Assembly,
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開始在聯合國大會談論氣候變遷，
02:14
but not with so much passion,
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但是當時我並沒有太多熱情，
02:17
because then there was still
this controversy among the scientists
this controversy among the scientists
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因為那時候科學界對此
仍然存有歧見，
仍然存有歧見，
02:21
whether it was human-induced,
whether it was real or it wasn't.
whether it was real or it wasn't.
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到底是不是人為，
到底是真還是假。
到底是真還是假。
02:26
But I think that that debate
was fairly much concluded in 2007
was fairly much concluded in 2007
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但是我想在 2007 年
爭議大抵結束，
爭議大抵結束，
02:32
with the Fourth Assessment
Report of the IPCC,
Report of the IPCC,
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《政府間氣候變化專門委員會
第四次評估報告》
第四次評估報告》
02:38
which made a categorical statement
that it is real, it's human-induced,
that it is real, it's human-induced,
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發表明確聲明，
指出此為真實、人為的情況，
指出此為真實、人為的情況，
02:45
and it's predicting
some very serious scenarios
some very serious scenarios
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並預測會有非常嚴重的情況發生在
02:48
for countries like mine.
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像我們這樣的國家。
02:51
And so that's when I got very serious.
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那時我才開始認真起來。
02:54
In the past, I talked about it.
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過去我只是談論它。
02:58
We were worried.
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我們很擔心。
03:00
But when the scenarios,
the predictions came in 2007,
the predictions came in 2007,
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但在 2007 年發布預測情況時，
03:03
it became a real issue for us.
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這變成我們真正的問題。
03:06
CA: Now, those predictions are,
I think, that by 2100,
I think, that by 2100,
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克：我想現在的預測是
到了 2100 年，
到了 2100 年，
03:11
sea levels are forecast to rise
perhaps three feet.
perhaps three feet.
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海平面可能會升高三呎。
03:14
There's scenarios where
it's higher than that, for sure,
it's higher than that, for sure,
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還有一些預測說會比那還高，
03:17
but what would you say
to a skeptic who said,
to a skeptic who said,
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但你要怎麼對懷疑論者解釋？
03:19
"What's three feet?
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他們說：「三呎又怎麼樣？
03:20
You're on average
six feet above sea level.
six feet above sea level.
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你們平均高於海平面六呎，
03:22
What's the problem?"
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哪裡有問題？」
03:24
AT: Well, I think
it's got to be understood
it's got to be understood
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湯：我想大家都必須了解
03:26
that a marginal rise in sea level
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沿岸的海平面上升，
03:28
would mean a loss of a lot of land,
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代表你會失去很多土地，
03:31
because much of the land is low.
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因為通常沿海的土地都很低。
03:34
And quite apart from that,
we are getting the swells at the moment.
we are getting the swells at the moment.
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就算撇開這個不談，
我們現在也有湧浪，
我們現在也有湧浪，
03:39
So it's not about getting two feet.
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所以這不僅僅是升高兩呎而已。
03:41
I think what many people do not understand
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我想很多人不瞭解，
03:44
is they think climate change is something
that is happening in the future.
that is happening in the future.
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他們以為氣候變遷是未來的事。
03:51
Well, we're at the very
bottom end of the spectrum.
bottom end of the spectrum.
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但是我們最先受到影響。
03:53
It's already with us.
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它已經影響了我們。
03:55
We have communities
who already have been dislocated.
who already have been dislocated.
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我們已經有社區必須搬離。
03:58
They have had to move,
and every parliament session,
and every parliament session,
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他們必須搬遷，
每一次議會開議期間，
每一次議會開議期間，
04:02
I'm getting complaints
from different communities
from different communities
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我都聽到來自不同社區的抱怨，
04:05
asking for assistance to build seawalls,
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要求援助蓋海堤，
04:08
to see what we can do
about the freshwater lens
about the freshwater lens
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看我們能不能拯救淡水透鏡體，
04:10
because it's being destroyed,
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因為這些都被破壞了，
04:12
and so in my trips
to the different islands,
to the different islands,
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所以每次我到不同的島上，
04:15
I'm seeing evidence of communities
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我都看到社區
04:18
which are now having to cope
with the loss of food crops,
with the loss of food crops,
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現在必須面對糧食作物損失，
04:21
the contamination of the water lenses,
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及淡水透鏡體遭受汙染的證據，
04:25
and I see these communities
perhaps leaving, having to relocate,
perhaps leaving, having to relocate,
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我也看到這些社區
也許必須離開、遷移，
也許必須離開、遷移，
04:29
within five to 10 years.
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在五到十年內。
04:32
CA: And then, I think the country
suffered its first cyclone,
suffered its first cyclone,
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克：之前這個國家
首次遭到氣旋侵襲，
首次遭到氣旋侵襲，
04:36
and this is connected, yes?
What happened here?
What happened here?
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這些都有關連，對嗎？
怎麼會發生這種事？
怎麼會發生這種事？
04:39
AT: Well, we're on the equator,
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湯：我們位於赤道上，
04:42
and I'm sure many of you understand
that when you're on the equator,
that when you're on the equator,
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我確信在座很多人瞭解
如果你位於赤道，
如果你位於赤道，
04:46
it's supposed to be in the doldrums.
We're not supposed to get the cyclones.
We're not supposed to get the cyclones.
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就應該是在赤道無風帶上。
我們不應該有氣旋。
我們不應該有氣旋。
04:50
We create them, and then we send them
either north or south.
either north or south.
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應該是我們產生氣旋，
然後往北邊南邊送。
然後往北邊南邊送。
04:53
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
04:54
But they aren't supposed to come back.
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但是它們不該跑回來。
04:56
But for the first time,
at the beginning of this year,
at the beginning of this year,
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但這是破天荒頭一遭，
在今年年初，
在今年年初，
04:59
the Cyclone Pam,
which destroyed Vanuatu,
which destroyed Vanuatu,
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熱帶氣旋帕姆摧毀了萬那杜，
05:02
and in the process,
the very edges of it actually touched
the very edges of it actually touched
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這個氣旋肆虐期間，
邊緣其實掃過
邊緣其實掃過
05:06
our two southernmost islands,
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我們最南端的兩個島嶼，
05:08
and all of Tuvalu was underwater
when Hurricane Pam struck.
when Hurricane Pam struck.
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帕姆颶風把整個吐瓦魯都淹沒了。
05:14
But for our two southernmost islands,
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但是我們兩個最南端的島嶼，
05:17
we had waves come over half the island,
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超過一半的島被巨浪吞噬，
05:21
and so this has never happened before.
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這真是前所未見。
05:23
It's a new experience.
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這是全新的經驗。
05:25
And I've just come back
from my own constituency,
from my own constituency,
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我才剛從我的選區回來，
05:30
and I've seen these beautiful trees
which had been there for decades,
which had been there for decades,
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我看到一些漂亮的樹
過去幾十年都屹立不搖，
過去幾十年都屹立不搖，
05:34
they've been totally destroyed.
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卻被徹底摧毀。
05:36
So this is what's happening,
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所以這就是現況，
05:37
but when we talk
about the rising sea level,
about the rising sea level,
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但是當我們談海平面上升，
05:41
we think it's something
that happens gradually.
that happens gradually.
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我們都以為這是慢慢發生的事。
05:44
It comes with the winds,
it comes with the swells,
it comes with the swells,
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它會隨著風來，
它會隨著湧浪來，
它會隨著湧浪來，
05:47
and so they can be magnified,
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所以會有放大的現象，
05:49
but what we are beginning to witness
is the change in the weather pattern,
is the change in the weather pattern,
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但是我們開始目睹天氣型態改變，
05:55
which is perhaps the more urgent challenge
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這也許是更緊急的挑戰，
05:58
that we will face sooner
than perhaps the rising sea level.
than perhaps the rising sea level.
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我們很快就要面對，
可能比海平面上升更緊急。
可能比海平面上升更緊急。
06:03
CA: So the country
is already seeing effects now.
is already seeing effects now.
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克：所以這個國家
現在已經開始看到效應。
現在已經開始看到效應。
06:06
As you look forward,
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往未來看，
06:08
what are your options
as a country, as a nation?
as a country, as a nation?
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你們身為一個國家
有什麼樣的選擇？
有什麼樣的選擇？
06:12
AT: Well, I've been telling
this story every year.
this story every year.
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湯：我每年都要說這個故事。
06:15
I think I visit a number of --
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我想我去過很多——
06:16
I've been traveling the world
to try and get people to understand.
to try and get people to understand.
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我拜訪全世界，
試著讓大家瞭解情況。
試著讓大家瞭解情況。
06:21
We have a plan, we think we have a plan.
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我們有個計畫，
我們認為我們有個計畫。
我們認為我們有個計畫。
06:24
And on one occasion,
I think I spoke in Geneva
I think I spoke in Geneva
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有一次我在日內瓦演說，
06:27
and there was a gentleman
who was interviewing me
who was interviewing me
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有位先生訪問我，
06:31
on something like this,
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就像現在這樣，
06:33
and I said, "We are looking
at floating islands,"
at floating islands,"
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我說：「我們想做漂浮島。」
06:36
and he thought it was funny,
but somebody said,
but somebody said,
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他覺得很好笑，
但是有個人說：
但是有個人說：
06:38
"No, this is not funny.
These people are looking for solutions."
These people are looking for solutions."
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「這一點都不好笑，
這些人在找解決方案。」
這些人在找解決方案。」
06:42
And so I have been looking
at floating islands.
at floating islands.
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所以我在研究漂浮島。
06:45
The Japanese are interested
in building floating islands.
in building floating islands.
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日本對建造漂浮島很有興趣。
06:49
But, as a country,
we have made a commitment
we have made a commitment
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但是，身為一個國家，
我們做出了承諾，
我們做出了承諾，
06:52
that no matter what happens,
we will try as much as possible
we will try as much as possible
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無論發生什麼事，
我們都要盡可能留在島上，
繼續以國家存在。
繼續以國家存在。
06:56
to stay and continue to exist as a nation.
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07:00
What that will take,
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但是這個代價
07:02
it's going to be
something quite significant,
something quite significant,
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將會非常大，
07:05
very, very substantial.
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非常、非常可觀。
07:07
Either we live on floating islands,
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我們要不就在漂浮島上生活，
07:09
or we have to build up the islands
to continue to stay out of the water
to continue to stay out of the water
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要不就是增高島嶼，
讓我們不會被淹沒，
讓我們不會被淹沒，
07:13
as the sea level rises
and as the storms get more severe.
and as the storms get more severe.
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因為海平面上升，
暴風也會愈來愈強烈。
暴風也會愈來愈強烈。
07:18
But even that, it's going to be
very, very difficult
very, very difficult
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即便如此，
我們也非常、非常難
我們也非常、非常難
07:20
to get the kind of resourcing
that we would need.
that we would need.
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取得所需的資源。
07:23
CA: And then the only recourse
is some form of forced migration.
is some form of forced migration.
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克：要不然最後的手段
就是某種形式的強制遷移。
就是某種形式的強制遷移。
07:27
AT: Well, we are also looking at that
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湯：我們也在研究這個，
07:29
because in the event
that nothing comes forward
that nothing comes forward
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因為在沒有國際協助的情況下，
07:32
from the international community,
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07:34
we are preparing,
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我們要預備好，
07:35
we don't want to be caught
like what's happening in Europe.
like what's happening in Europe.
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我們不想被困在
像歐洲現在的情況，
像歐洲現在的情況，
07:38
OK? We don't want to mass migrate
at some point in time.
at some point in time.
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好嗎？我們不想看到
大規模遷移發生。
大規模遷移發生。
07:41
We want to be able
to give the people the choice today,
to give the people the choice today,
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我們希望今天能給人民選擇，
07:44
those who choose
and want to do that, to migrate.
and want to do that, to migrate.
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想要遷移的人可以遷移。
07:48
We don't want something to happen
that they are forced to migrate
that they are forced to migrate
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我們不想看到大家被強制遷移，
07:53
without having been prepared to do so.
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而且毫無防備。
07:56
Of course, our culture is very different,
our society is very different,
our society is very different,
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當然，我們的文化很不一樣，
我們的社會很不一樣，
我們的社會很不一樣，
07:59
and once we migrate
into a different environment,
into a different environment,
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一旦我們遷移進入不同的環境，
08:01
a different culture,
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不同的文化，
08:03
there's a whole lot
of adjustments that are required.
of adjustments that are required.
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一定需要很多的調適。
08:06
CA: Well, there's forced migration
in your country's past,
in your country's past,
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克：過去你的國家
曾有過強制遷移，
曾有過強制遷移，
08:09
and I think just this week,
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我想就在這個星期，
08:11
just yesterday
or the day before yesterday,
or the day before yesterday,
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就在昨天或前天，
08:14
you visited these people.
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你訪問了這些人。
08:16
What happened here? What's the story here?
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發生了什麼事？
是怎樣的情況？
是怎樣的情況？
08:18
AT: Yes, and I'm sorry,
I think somebody was asking
I think somebody was asking
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湯：是，而且很抱歉，
我知道有人在問
我知道有人在問
08:21
why we were sneaking off
to visit that place.
to visit that place.
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為什麼我們要溜出去
訪問那個地方。
訪問那個地方。
08:24
I had a very good reason, because we have
a community of Kiribati people
a community of Kiribati people
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我有個很好的理由，
因為有一群吉里巴斯人
因為有一群吉里巴斯人
08:28
living in that part
of the Solomon Islands,
of the Solomon Islands,
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住在索羅門群島上那塊區域，
08:32
but these were people who were relocated
from the Phoenix Islands, in fact,
from the Phoenix Islands, in fact,
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但是他們其實是在 1960 年代
從鳳凰群島搬遷到那裡的。
08:36
in the 1960s.
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08:37
There was serious drought, and the people
could not continue to live on the island,
could not continue to live on the island,
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4536
那時有嚴重的乾旱，
人民無法繼續在島上生活，
人民無法繼續在島上生活，
08:42
and so they were moved
to live here in the Solomon Islands.
to live here in the Solomon Islands.
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所以他們搬到索羅門群島這裡。
08:45
And so yesterday it was very interesting
to meet with these people.
to meet with these people.
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昨天與這些人會面很有意思。
08:48
They didn't know who I was.
They hadn't heard of me.
They hadn't heard of me.
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2456
他們不知道我是誰。
他們沒聽過我。
他們沒聽過我。
08:51
Some of them later recognized me,
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2576
有些人後來認出我，
08:53
but I think they were very happy.
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3576
但是我想他們都很高興。
08:57
Later they really wanted to have
the opportunity to welcome me formally.
the opportunity to welcome me formally.
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4416
後來他們真的想要
辦一個正式的歡迎會。
辦一個正式的歡迎會。
09:01
But I think what I saw yesterday
was very interesting
was very interesting
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但是我想昨天
我看到的情況非常有意思，
我看到的情況非常有意思，
09:05
because here I see our people.
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因為我在這裡看到我們的人民。
09:07
I spoke in our language, and of course
they spoke back, they replied,
they spoke back, they replied,
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5816
我用我們的語言與他們交談，
當然他們也用同樣的語言回答，
當然他們也用同樣的語言回答，
09:12
but their accent, they are beginning
not to be able to speak Kiribati properly.
not to be able to speak Kiribati properly.
166
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但是他們有口音，他們已經開始
講不太標準的吉里巴斯話。
講不太標準的吉里巴斯話。
09:17
I saw them, there was
this lady with red teeth.
this lady with red teeth.
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我看見他們，
有位女士有紅色的牙齒。
有位女士有紅色的牙齒。
09:20
She was chewing betel nuts,
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2216
她在嚼檳榔，
09:22
and it's not something we do in Kiribati.
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2256
我們在吉里巴斯不吃這個。
09:24
We don't chew betel nuts.
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2616
我們不嚼檳榔。
09:27
I met also a family who have married
the local people here,
the local people here,
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5856
我也遇到一個家庭與當地人通婚，
09:33
and so this is what is happening.
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這就是實際情況。
09:37
As you go into another community,
there are bound to be changes.
there are bound to be changes.
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3576
你進入另一個社區，
就會發生必然的改變。
就會發生必然的改變。
09:40
There is bound to be
a certain loss of identity,
a certain loss of identity,
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4456
必然會喪失某種程度的認同感，
09:45
and this is what we will be
looking for in the future
looking for in the future
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3456
這就是我們在未來會看到的現象，
09:48
if and when we do migrate.
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2256
如果我們選擇遷移。
09:51
CA: It must have been
just an extraordinarily emotional day
just an extraordinarily emotional day
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3176
克：那必定是非常激動的一天，
09:54
because of these questions about identity,
178
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2816
因為這些身分認同的問題，
09:57
the joy of seeing you and perhaps
an emphasized sense of what they had lost.
an emphasized sense of what they had lost.
179
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5216
看到你的喜悅，
或許加強了他們的失落感。
或許加強了他們的失落感。
10:02
And it's very inspiring to hear you say
you're going to fight to the end
you're going to fight to the end
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所以其實很讓人感動
聽到你說你要奮戰到底，
聽到你說你要奮戰到底，
10:05
to try to preserve
the nation in a location.
the nation in a location.
181
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4411
試著讓這個國家保留在原地。
10:10
AT: This is our wish.
182
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1296
湯：這是我們的願望。
10:11
Nobody wants ever to leave their home,
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3056
沒有人想離開自己的家，
10:14
and so it's been
a very difficult decision for me.
a very difficult decision for me.
184
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3056
所以這對我是個很艱難的決定。
10:17
As a leader, you don't make plans
to leave your island, your home,
to leave your island, your home,
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5376
你當領袖，不想計畫
離開你的島、你的家，
離開你的島、你的家，
10:23
and so I've been asked
on a number of occasions,
on a number of occasions,
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2256
我在不同的場合被問了好多次，
10:25
"So how do you feel?"
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1216
「你有什麼感受？」
10:26
And it doesn't feel good at all.
188
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3136
這一點都不好受。
10:29
It's an emotional thing,
and I've tried to live with it,
and I've tried to live with it,
189
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3576
這是很感傷的事，
我一直試著與其共存，
我一直試著與其共存，
10:33
and I know that on occasions, I'm accused
of not trying to solve the problem
of not trying to solve the problem
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4936
我知道有時候，
我被指責沒有試著解決問題，
我被指責沒有試著解決問題，
10:38
because I can't solve the problem.
191
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1976
因為我無法解決這個問題。
10:40
It's something that's got
to be done collectively.
to be done collectively.
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2816
這必須集體合作才做得到。
10:43
Climate change is a global phenomenon,
and as I've often argued,
and as I've often argued,
193
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5776
氣候變遷是全球現象，
正如我常提出的，
正如我常提出的，
10:49
unfortunately, the countries,
when we come to the United Nations --
when we come to the United Nations --
194
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4496
不幸的是，各國到聯合國開會時，
10:53
I was in a meeting with
the Pacific Island Forum countries
the Pacific Island Forum countries
195
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4896
我與太平洋島國論壇國家開會，
10:58
where Australia and New Zealand
are also members,
are also members,
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2496
澳洲及紐西蘭也是論壇成員，
11:01
and we had an argument.
197
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1736
我們有一項爭執。
11:02
There was a bit of a story in the news
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2696
新聞曾經報過一點，
11:05
because they were arguing
that to cut emissions,
that to cut emissions,
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4296
因為他們認為要減少排放量
11:09
it would be something
that they're unable to do
that they're unable to do
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2256
是他們做不到的事情，
11:12
because it would affect the industries.
201
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3216
因為那會影響產業。
11:15
And so here I was saying,
202
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1456
我當時就說，
11:16
OK, I hear you,
203
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2216
是，我懂你的意思，
11:19
I understand what you're saying,
204
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1656
我知道你在說什麼，
11:20
but try also to understand what I'm saying
205
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2256
但也請試著瞭解我在說什麼，
11:23
because if you do not cut your emissions,
206
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2616
因為如果你不減少排放量，
11:25
then our survival is on the line.
207
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2376
那我們的生存就岌岌可危。
11:28
And so it's a matter for you
to weigh this, these moral issues.
to weigh this, these moral issues.
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4336
所以這是你要權衡的問題，
這些道德問題。
這些道德問題。
11:32
It's about industry as opposed to
the survival of a people.
the survival of a people.
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4016
這是產業對上人民存亡。
11:36
CA: You know, I ask you yesterday
what made you angry,
what made you angry,
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2656
克：昨天我問你，
是什麼讓你生氣，
是什麼讓你生氣，
11:39
and you said, "I don't get angry."
But then you paused.
But then you paused.
211
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3496
你說：「我沒有生氣。」
但是你馬上頓了一下。
但是你馬上頓了一下。
11:42
I think this made you angry.
212
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1616
我想這就是讓你生氣的原因。
11:44
AT: I'd refer you to my earlier
statement at the United Nations.
statement at the United Nations.
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4896
湯：我要向你指出
早先我在聯合國發表的聲明，
早先我在聯合國發表的聲明，
11:49
I was very angry, very frustrated
and then depressed.
and then depressed.
214
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4936
我很生氣，非常灰心，
而且很消沉沮喪。
而且很消沉沮喪。
11:54
There was a sense of futility
215
701960
1976
有一種徒勞無功的感覺，
11:56
that we are fighting a fight
that we have no hope of winning.
that we have no hope of winning.
216
703960
5456
好像我們在打一場
毫無勝算的仗。
毫無勝算的仗。
12:01
I had to change my approach.
217
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2176
我必須改變我的做法。
12:03
I had to become more reasonable
218
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2096
我必須變得更理性，
12:05
because I thought people would listen
to somebody who was rational,
to somebody who was rational,
219
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3143
因為我認為大家會聽
理性的人說話，
理性的人說話，
12:09
but I remain radically rational,
whatever that is.
whatever that is.
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2569
但是我保持「極其理性」，
不管這是什麼意思。
不管這是什麼意思。
12:11
(Laughter)
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1616
（笑聲）
12:13
CA: Now, a core part
of your nation's identity is fishing.
of your nation's identity is fishing.
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3736
克：你的國家最主要的部分是漁業，
12:17
I think you said pretty much everyone
is involved in fishing in some way.
is involved in fishing in some way.
223
724920
3496
我想你說過幾乎每個人
都跟漁業有點關係。
都跟漁業有點關係。
12:20
AT: Well, we eat fish
every day, every day,
every day, every day,
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2776
湯：我們每天都吃魚，
天天如此，
天天如此，
12:23
and I think there is no doubt
that our rate of consumption of fish
that our rate of consumption of fish
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731240
4536
而且我想我們吃魚的量
12:28
is perhaps the highest in the world.
226
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2136
無疑可說是世界最高的，
12:30
We don't have a lot of livestock,
227
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2456
我們沒有很多家畜，
12:32
so it's fish that we depend on.
228
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2776
所以我們都靠魚維生。
12:35
CA: So you're dependent on fish,
both at the local level
both at the local level
229
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3136
克：所以你們都靠魚維生，
無論是從地方層面，
無論是從地方層面，
12:38
and for the revenues
that the country receives
that the country receives
230
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2696
還是這個國家
12:41
from the global fishing business for tuna,
231
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2576
從全球鮪魚業收到的
收入都是如此，
收入都是如此，
12:43
and yet despite that, a few years ago
you took a very radical step.
you took a very radical step.
232
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4896
儘管如此，幾年前你採取了
一個非常激進的手段。
一個非常激進的手段。
12:48
Can you tell us about that?
233
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1376
可以說明一下嗎？
12:50
I think something happened
right here in the Phoenix Islands.
right here in the Phoenix Islands.
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3336
我想跟鳳凰群島這裡
發生的事有關。
發生的事有關。
12:53
AT: Let me give some of the background
of what fish means for us.
of what fish means for us.
235
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5296
湯：容我說明一下
魚對我們有何意義。
魚對我們有何意義。
12:58
We have one of the largest
tuna fisheries remaining in the world.
tuna fisheries remaining in the world.
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3936
我們的鮪魚漁場
是全球現存極少數的大漁場。
是全球現存極少數的大漁場。
13:02
In the Pacific, I think we own
something like 60 percent
something like 60 percent
237
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2856
我想我們在太平洋
擁有世界僅存約六成的鮪魚漁場，
13:05
of the remaining tuna fisheries,
238
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1896
13:07
and it remains relatively healthy
for some species, but not all.
for some species, but not all.
239
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4256
這個漁場對某些魚種來說還算健康，
但不是全都這樣。
但不是全都這樣。
13:11
And Kiribati is one of the three
major resource owners,
major resource owners,
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吉里巴斯是三大資源擁有國之一，
13:18
tuna resource owners.
241
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1696
鮪魚資源擁有國。
13:19
And at the moment, we have been getting
242
787640
3576
目前我們收到的收入，
13:23
something like 80 to 90
percent of our revenue
percent of our revenue
243
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2896
大約八成到九成
13:26
from access fees, license fees.
244
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2456
是入漁費、捕撈執照費。
13:28
CA: Of your national revenue.
245
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1856
克：你是指國庫收入。
13:30
AT: National revenue,
246
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1816
湯：國庫收入，
13:32
which drives everything that we do
247
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2816
推動我們所做的一切，
13:35
in governments, hospitals,
schools and what have you.
schools and what have you.
248
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4016
政府、醫院、學校諸如此類。
13:39
But we decided to close this,
and it was a very difficult decision.
and it was a very difficult decision.
249
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5216
但是我們決定要關掉這個漁場，
這是非常困難的決定。
這是非常困難的決定。
13:44
I can assure you, politically,
locally, it was not easy,
locally, it was not easy,
250
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5536
我可以向你保證，在政治上、
在當地發展上，都很困難，
在當地發展上，都很困難，
13:50
but I was convinced that we had to do this
251
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3936
但是我堅信我們必須這麼做，
13:54
in order to ensure
that the fishery remains sustainable.
that the fishery remains sustainable.
252
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4576
以確保漁場能永續發展。
13:58
There had been some indications
that some of the species,
that some of the species,
253
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2776
已經有指標指出有些魚種，
14:01
in particular the bigeye,
was under serious threat.
was under serious threat.
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尤其是大目鮪面臨嚴重威脅。
14:05
The yellowfin was also heavily fished.
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黃鰭鮪也過度捕撈。
14:09
Skipjack remains healthy.
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鰹鮪還算豐沛。
14:10
And so we had to do something like that,
and so that was the reason I did that.
and so that was the reason I did that.
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所以我們必須採取措施，
這也就是我做出此項決定的原因。
這也就是我做出此項決定的原因。
14:15
Another reason why I did that
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另一個我做出這個決定的原因，
14:19
was because I had been asking
the international community
the international community
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是因為我被國際社會質問，
14:24
that in order to deal with climate change,
in order to fight climate change,
in order to fight climate change,
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為了要因應氣候變遷，
要對抗氣候變遷，
要對抗氣候變遷，
14:28
there has got to be sacrifice,
there has got to be commitment.
there has got to be commitment.
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一定得有所犧牲，
一定得有所承諾。
一定得有所承諾。
14:32
So in asking the international community
to make a sacrifice,
to make a sacrifice,
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在要求國際社會犧牲的同時，
14:38
I thought we ourselves
need to make that sacrifice.
need to make that sacrifice.
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我想我們自己也得有所犧牲。
14:41
And so we made the sacrifice.
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所以我們作出犧牲。
14:42
And forgoing commercial fishing
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停止商業捕撈
14:47
in the Phoenix Islands protected area
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在鳳凰群島保護海域
14:50
would mean a loss of revenue.
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意味著損失收入。
14:52
We are still trying to assess
what that loss would be
what that loss would be
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我們還在評估損失情況，
14:54
because we actually closed it off
at the beginning of this year,
at the beginning of this year,
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因為我們今年初才關閉漁場，
15:00
and so we will see by the end of this year
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我們到今年年底才會知道
15:02
what it means in terms
of the lost revenue.
of the lost revenue.
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到底損失層面有多大。
15:05
CA: So there's so many things
playing into this.
playing into this.
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克：所以這牽涉很廣。
15:08
On the one hand,
it may prompt healthier fisheries.
it may prompt healthier fisheries.
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一方面，這可以促使漁場更豐沛。
15:15
I mean, how much are you able
to move the price up
to move the price up
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那你能調漲多少
15:17
that you charge for the remaining areas?
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其它僅存的漁場入漁費上？
15:20
AT: The negotiations
have been very difficult,
have been very difficult,
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湯：這方面的協商極為困難，
15:24
but we have managed
to raise the cost of a vessel day.
to raise the cost of a vessel day.
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但是我們已經成功調漲
每艘船每天的捕撈費。
每艘船每天的捕撈費。
15:28
For any vessel
to come in to fish for a day,
to come in to fish for a day,
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我們對進來捕魚的船隻
每日所收的費用，
每日所收的費用，
已從每艘六千到八千元
15:31
we have raised the fee from --
it was $6,000 and $8,000,
it was $6,000 and $8,000,
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15:34
now to $10,000, $12,000 per vessel day.
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提高到現在的
一萬到一萬二千元。
一萬到一萬二千元。
15:39
And so there's been
that significant increase.
that significant increase.
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漲幅很顯著。
15:42
But at the same time,
what's important to note is,
what's important to note is,
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但同時，要注意的重點是，
15:47
whereas in the past these fishing boats
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以往這些捕魚船
15:51
might be fishing in a day
and maybe catch 10 tons,
and maybe catch 10 tons,
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一天可能捕到十噸的魚，
15:55
now they're catching maybe 100 tons
because they've become so efficient.
because they've become so efficient.
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現在他們能捕到約一百噸，
因為船隻的效能變得很高。
因為船隻的效能變得很高。
15:59
And so we've got to respond likewise.
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所以我們也要有所因應。
16:02
We've got to be very, very careful
because the technology has so improved.
because the technology has so improved.
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我們必須非常非常小心，
因為科技如此進步。
因為科技如此進步。
16:06
There was a time when the Brazilian fleet
moved from the Atlantic to the Pacific.
moved from the Atlantic to the Pacific.
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過去巴西船隊曾經
想從大西洋移到太平洋。
想從大西洋移到太平洋。
16:11
They couldn't.
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他們沒成功。
16:12
They started experimenting
if they could, per se.
if they could, per se.
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他們開始嘗試是否可行。
16:16
But now they've got ways of doing it,
and they've become so efficient.
and they've become so efficient.
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現在他們做到了，
而且變得非常高效能。
而且變得非常高效能。
16:21
CA: Can you give us a sense
of what it's like in those negotiations?
of what it's like in those negotiations?
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克：你能讓我們瞭解一下
這些協商是什麼嗎？
這些協商是什麼嗎？
16:24
Because you're up against companies
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因為你起來對抗的公司
16:26
that have hundreds of millions
of dollars at stake, essentially.
of dollars at stake, essentially.
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基本上在這投注了上億美元。
16:29
How do you hold the line?
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你如何堅持不讓步？
16:33
Is there any advice you can give
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你有沒有什麼建言
16:35
to other leaders who are dealing
with the same companies
with the same companies
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給其他在跟同樣公司
打交道的領袖？
打交道的領袖？
16:38
about how to get
the most for your country,
the most for your country,
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怎樣為你的國家爭取到最大利益，
16:42
get the most for the fish?
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怎樣為魚類爭取到最大利益？
16:46
What advice would you give?
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你有什麼建議？
16:48
AT: Well, I think we focus
too often on licensing
too often on licensing
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湯：我想我們太著重在
捕撈執照費上，
捕撈執照費上，
16:54
in order to get the rate of return,
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為了報酬率的關係。
16:56
because what we are getting
from license fees
from license fees
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2805
因為捕撈執照費用所得
16:59
is about 10 percent
of the landed value of the catch
of the landed value of the catch
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2616
大約是捕獲魚類
上岸價格的一成，
上岸價格的一成，
17:01
on the side of the wharf,
not in the retail shops.
not in the retail shops.
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3136
是在碼頭上岸的價格，
不是店裡販售的價格。
不是店裡販售的價格。
17:04
And we only get about 10 percent.
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3976
而我們只拿到約一成。
17:08
What we have been trying
to do over the years
to do over the years
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2616
我們過去一直試著
17:11
is actually to increase
our participation in the industry,
our participation in the industry,
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3856
要更加實際參與該行業，
17:15
in the harvesting, in the processing,
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1023120
2616
參與捕撈、參與加工，
17:17
and eventually, hopefully, the marketing.
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1857
並希望最終能參與行銷。
17:19
They're not easy to penetrate,
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3694
這些都不容易打通，
17:23
but we are working towards that,
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但是我們在想辦法，
17:25
and yes, the answer would be to enhance.
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2616
所以是的，答案是「增加」。
17:28
In order to increase our rate of return,
we have to become more involved.
we have to become more involved.
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1036319
4217
為了增加我們的報酬率，
我們要更積極參與。
我們要更積極參與。
17:32
And so we've started doing that,
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1040560
3176
所以我們開始這麼做，
17:35
and we have to restructure the industry.
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4256
而且我們必須重整該行業。
17:40
We've got to tell these people
that the world has changed.
that the world has changed.
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3376
我們必須告訴這些人
世界已經改變。
世界已經改變。
17:43
Now we want to produce the fish ourselves.
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1051440
2416
現在我們想要自己
生產魚類加工品。
生產魚類加工品。
17:46
CA: And meanwhile,
for your local fishermen,
for your local fishermen,
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2096
克：同時，貴國當地的漁夫，
17:48
they are still able to fish,
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1056000
3096
他們還是可以捕魚，
17:51
but what is business like for them?
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1059120
2456
這個產業對他們又是如何？
17:53
Is it getting harder?
Are the waters depleted?
Are the waters depleted?
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2336
更艱難了嗎？
水域資源是否枯竭？
水域資源是否枯竭？
17:56
Or is that being run
on a sustainable basis?
on a sustainable basis?
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3456
或是以永續基礎經營？
17:59
AT: For the artisanal fishery,
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1067440
1456
湯：對傳統捕撈漁業，
18:01
we do not participate
in the commercial fishing activity
in the commercial fishing activity
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3256
我們不參與商業的漁業活動，
18:04
except only to supply the domestic market.
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1072200
3016
我們只供應國內市場。
18:07
The tuna fishery is really
entirely for the foreign market,
entirely for the foreign market,
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1075240
3296
鮪魚工業其實
完全是針對國外市場，
完全是針對國外市場，
18:10
mostly here in the US, Europe, Japan.
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1078560
6216
絕大部分是在美國這裡，
還有歐洲、日本。
還有歐洲、日本。
18:17
So I am a fisherman, very much,
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4536
我自己可說是漁夫，
18:21
and I used to be able to catch yellowfin.
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3176
以前我還能捕到黃鰭鮪。
18:24
Now it's very, very rare
to be able to catch yellowfin
to be able to catch yellowfin
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1092560
2776
現在很難捕到黃鰭鮪，
18:27
because they are being lifted
out of the water by the hundreds of tons
out of the water by the hundreds of tons
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3376
因為現在都是以圍網漁船
從水中吊起幾百噸的魚。
從水中吊起幾百噸的魚。
18:30
by these purse seiners.
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1880
18:34
CA: So here's a couple
of beautiful girls from your country.
of beautiful girls from your country.
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4936
克：這裡有幾位貴國的漂亮女孩。
18:39
I mean, as you think about their future,
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我想問，當你想到她們的未來，
18:42
what message would you have for them
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1110560
2656
你會跟她們說什麼？
18:45
and what message
would you have for the world?
would you have for the world?
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1113240
3016
你會跟這個世界說什麼？
18:48
AT: Well, I've been telling the world
that we really have to do something
that we really have to do something
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1116280
3429
湯：我一直對世界說
我們真的該採取行動
我們真的該採取行動
18:51
about what is happening to the climate
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1119733
1843
來因應氣候變遷，
18:53
because for us, it's about
the future of these children.
the future of these children.
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1121600
2776
因為對我們而言，
這是為了這些孩子的未來。
這是為了這些孩子的未來。
18:56
I have 12 grandchildren, at least.
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1936
我有 12 個孫子，至少吧？
18:58
I think I have 12, my wife knows.
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2016
我想我有 12 個，
我太太才知道。
我太太才知道。
19:00
(Laughter)
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2216
（笑聲）
19:02
And I think I have eight children.
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我想我有 8 個孩子。
19:05
It's about their future.
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1256
這是為了他們的未來。
19:07
Every day I see my grandchildren,
about the same age as these young girls,
about the same age as these young girls,
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3736
每天我都見到我的孫子，
跟這幾個小女孩差不多大，
跟這幾個小女孩差不多大，
19:10
and I do wonder,
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2416
我真的在想，
19:13
and I get angry sometimes, yes I do.
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2216
有時候我也很生氣，真的。
19:15
I wonder what is to become of them.
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2056
我在想他們會變成什麼樣。
19:17
And so it's about them
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3136
所以這是為了他們，
19:20
that we should be telling everybody,
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2256
我們必須告訴每一個人，
19:23
that it's not about
their own national interest,
their own national interest,
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2256
這不是為了他們自己國家的利益，
19:25
because climate change,
regrettably, unfortunately,
regrettably, unfortunately,
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3656
因為氣候變遷，
很遺憾，很不幸
很遺憾，很不幸
19:29
is viewed by many countries
as a national problem. It's not.
as a national problem. It's not.
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4096
被許多國家視為國家的問題。
並非如此。
並非如此。
19:33
And this is the argument
we got into recently with our partners,
we got into recently with our partners,
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1161000
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這是我們最近與
論壇夥伴爭論的問題，
論壇夥伴爭論的問題，
19:36
the Australians and New Zealanders,
356
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1696
就是澳洲人及紐西蘭人，
19:37
because they said,
"We can't cut any more."
"We can't cut any more."
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1165744
3312
因為他們說：
「我們不能再減了。」
「我們不能再減了。」
19:41
This is what one of the leaders,
the Australian leader, said,
the Australian leader, said,
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1169080
3616
其中一位領袖，
澳洲領導人這麼說，
澳洲領導人這麼說，
19:44
that we've done our part,
we are cutting back.
we are cutting back.
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1172720
4256
我們盡了自己的責任，
我們都在縮減。
我們都在縮減。
19:49
I said, What about the rest?
Why don't you keep it?
Why don't you keep it?
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3656
我說，那其它的呢？
你為什麼不自己留著？
你為什麼不自己留著？
19:52
If you could keep
the rest of your emissions
the rest of your emissions
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2696
如果你把你其它的排放物
19:55
within your boundaries,
within your borders,
within your borders,
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2296
留在自己的疆界內，
留在你的邊界內，
留在你的邊界內，
19:57
we'd have no question.
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1185720
1776
我們就沒有問題。
19:59
You can go ahead as much as you like.
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1816
你要怎麼排放都可以。
20:01
But unfortunately,
you're sending it our way,
you're sending it our way,
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2136
但不幸的是，
你把它排到我這裡，
你把它排到我這裡，
20:03
and it's affecting
the future of our children.
the future of our children.
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2191
而這會影響我們孩子的未來。
20:05
And so surely I think that is the heart
of the problem of climate change today.
of the problem of climate change today.
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1193735
5041
我很確定這就是今天
氣候變遷的核心問題所在。
氣候變遷的核心問題所在。
20:11
We will be meeting in Paris
at the end of this year,
at the end of this year,
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3056
我們今年年底將在巴黎開會，
20:14
but until we can think of this
as a global phenomenon,
as a global phenomenon,
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3936
但是除非我們能視其為全球現象，
20:18
because we create it,
individually, as nations,
individually, as nations,
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3256
因為雖然我們
是以各國為單位製造出，
是以各國為單位製造出，
20:21
but it affects everybody else,
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1209120
1936
但這會影響其他每個人，
20:23
and yet, we refuse
to do anything about it,
to do anything about it,
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3616
然而，我們拒絕做任何事情，
20:26
and we deal with it as a national problem,
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2456
我們也認為這是各國的問題，
20:29
which it is not -- it is a global issue,
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1217200
2096
並非如此，這是全球議題，
20:31
and it's got to be
dealt with collectively.
dealt with collectively.
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2720
必須全球集思廣益。
20:35
CA: People are incredibly bad
at responding to graphs and numbers,
at responding to graphs and numbers,
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1223120
4336
克：大家對圖表及數字的反應很差，
20:39
and we shut our minds to it.
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1227480
3776
我們的頭腦在這方面不太靈光。
20:43
Somehow, to people, we're slightly better
at responding to that sometimes.
at responding to that sometimes.
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6256
好像大家對人物比較有反應。
20:49
And it seems like it's
very possible that your nation,
very possible that your nation,
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1237560
2936
現在看來，你的國家似乎會
20:52
despite, actually because of
the intense problems you face,
the intense problems you face,
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1240520
4456
——儘管其實是因為
你們面對極為棘手的問題——
你們面對極為棘手的問題——
20:57
you may yet be the warning light
to the world that shines most visibly,
to the world that shines most visibly,
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4896
你們會成為這世界最閃亮、
21:02
most powerfully.
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1249920
1976
最有力的警告之光。
21:04
I just want to thank you,
I'm sure, on behalf of all of us,
I'm sure, on behalf of all of us,
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1251920
2817
我僅代表在座各位
在此對你致謝，
在此對你致謝，
21:06
for your extraordinary leadership
and for being here.
and for being here.
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1254762
2494
謝謝你非凡的領導，
也謝謝你撥冗參加。
也謝謝你撥冗參加。
21:09
Mr. President, thank you so much.
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1573
總統先生，非常謝謝你。
21:11
AT: Thank you.
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773
湯：謝謝！
21:11
(Applause)
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2454
（掌聲）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Anote Tong - President of the Republic of KiribatiAnote Tong has built worldwide awareness of the potentially devastating impacts of climate change.
Why you should listen
His Excellency Anote Tong is the fourth President of the Republic of Kiribati. He was first elected as President on 10 July 2003 and subsequently won two more elections in 2007 and in 2012. He is now serving his last term, which will end in mid-2015. Under his leadership, President Anote Tong also holds the portfolio of Head of State and Minister of Foreign Affairs and Immigration.
Anote Tong was born in 1952 on Fanning Island (also known as Tabuaeran) in the Line Islands and is a member of the Kiribati House of Parliament from the constituency of Maiana Island in the central Kiribati group.
Educated in New Zealand and in England at the University of Canterbury and the London School of Economics respectively, President Tong holds a Bachelor of Science and a Master of Economics under his belt.
Since the beginning of his presidency, President Anote Tong has become a strong climate change advocate and has built worldwide awareness of the potentially devastating impacts of climate change.
He has stated on many occasions that Kiribati may cease to exist altogether and that its entire population may need to be resettled not as climate change refugees but as citizens who migrate on merit and with dignity.
With one of the lowest carbon-emission footprints in the world, Tong has often described Kiribati as a “frontline country” that has been among the first to experience dramatic climate change impacts.
As an extraordinary measure to set an example for the rest of the world, President Tong created the Phoenix Islands Protected Area, one of the largest marine protected areas in the world with a size of 408,250 square kilometers which was inscribed as a United Nations World Heritage site in 2008.
President Tong has won a number of awards and recognition that acknowledges his contribution and leadership on climate change and ocean conservation.
Anote Tong | Speaker | TED.com