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Sebastian Junger: Our lonely society makes it hard to come home from war

セバスチャン・ユンガー: 孤立社会が帰還兵の社会復帰を阻んでいる

November 4, 2015

セバスチャン・ユンガーは間近で戦争を見てきたので、戦場での経験が兵士に及ぼすトラウマについてよく知っています。しかし、祖国に戻った退役軍人には「軍隊の部族的閉鎖性を離れて、互いに疎遠で真っ二つに分裂した現代社会に戻る」という別の大きな問題があると示唆します。「私たちが退役軍人を救えないかと自問することもある。しかし、本当の問題は自分たち自身を救えるのかということだと思う。」とユンガーは言います。

Sebastian Junger - Journalist and documentarian
The author of "The Perfect Storm" and the director of the documentaries "Restrepo" and "Korengal," Sebastian Junger tells non-fiction stories with grit and emotion. Full bio

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Double-click the English subtitles below to play the video.
I worked as a war reporter for 15 years
自分が問題を抱えていると気付くまで
00:13
before I realized
that I really had a problem.
15年間従軍記者として
働いていました
00:16
There was something really wrong with me.
私の中で何かが狂ってしまったのです
00:20
This was about a year before 9/11,
and America wasn't at war yet.
9/11の前年のことで
まだアメリカは戦争をしておらず
00:23
We weren't talking about PTSD.
PTSDも話題に上りませんでした
00:27
We were not yet talking
about the effect of trauma and war
人間の精神に影響を及ぼす
戦争とトラウマの関係についても
00:29
on the human psyche.
まだ話されていませんでした
00:33
I'd been in Afghanistan
for a couple of months
私は数か月間アフガニスタンで
00:36
with the Northern Alliance
as they were fighting the Taliban.
タリバンと戦っている
北部同盟と行動を共にしました
00:38
And at that point the Taliban
had an air force,
当時 タリバンには空軍があり
00:41
they had fighter planes,
they had tanks, they had artillery,
戦闘機、戦車、大砲を備えていました
00:45
and we really got hammered
pretty badly a couple of times.
私たちは2度に渡る猛攻を受け
00:48
We saw some very ugly things.
とてもおぞましいものを
目にしてきました
00:51
But I didn't really think it affected me.
それでも その影響が出るとは全く思わず
00:54
I didn't think much about it.
特に気にしていませんでした
00:56
I came home to New York, where I live.
私は地元のニューヨークへ帰りました
00:58
Then one day I went down into the subway,
ある日 地下鉄から降りると
01:00
and for the first time in my life,
私は人生で初めて感じる
01:04
I knew real fear.
真の恐怖を知り
01:06
I had a massive panic attack.
極度のパニック発作に襲われました
01:08
I was way more scared
than I had ever been in Afghanistan.
アフガニスタンにいた頃よりも
ずっと怖かったのです
01:11
Everything I was looking at seemed like
it was going to kill me,
目にするものすべてが
私を殺そうとしているようでしたが
01:15
but I couldn't explain why.
なぜだか説明できませんでした
01:19
The trains were going too fast.
地下鉄は物凄い速さで通過し
01:21
There were too many people.
人でごった返し
01:23
The lights were too bright.
照明は明るすぎました
01:25
Everything was too loud,
everything was moving too quickly.
すべてが けたたましく
あっという間に動いていきました
01:27
I backed up against a support column
and just waited for it.
私は支柱に寄り掛かり
おさまるのを待ちました
01:29
When I couldn't take it any longer,
I ran out of the subway station
これ以上耐えきれなくなり
地下鉄の駅を走って抜け出し
01:34
and walked wherever I was going.
目的地までは歩いて行きました
01:38
Later, I found out that what I had
was short-term PTSD:
後に それは 短期的なPTSD ―
01:41
post-traumatic stress disorder.
心的外傷後ストレス障害と分かりました
01:45
We evolved as animals, as primates,
to survive periods of danger,
動物として 霊長類として進化して
危機を生きのびた人類は
01:48
and if your life has been in danger,
生命が危険な状態にあると
01:52
you want to react to unfamiliar noises.
馴染みのない音に反応します
01:55
You want to sleep lightly, wake up easily.
眠りが浅く すぐに目が覚めます
01:59
You want to have nightmares and flashbacks
自分が殺されそうになる
02:01
of the thing that could kill you.
悪夢やフラッシュバックに悩まされます
02:03
You want to be angry because it makes you
predisposed to fight,
喧嘩をする状況に陥りやすくなって
怒りっぽくなったり
02:06
or depressed, because it keeps you out
of circulation a little bit.
社会活動から少し疎外されるので
落ち込みやすくなります
02:09
Keeps you safe.
これは防衛反応です
02:13
It's not very pleasant,
but it's better than getting eaten.
あまり心地良いものではありませんが
心が蝕まれるよりはましです
02:15
Most people recover
from that pretty quickly.
ほとんどの人はすぐに回復します
02:20
It takes a few weeks, a few months.
数週間か 数か月程度です
02:22
I kept having panic attacks,
but they eventually went away.
パニック発作は続きましたが
ようやく治まりました
02:24
I had no idea it was connected
to the war that I'd seen.
私が見てきた戦争との
関連性は分かりませんでした
02:28
I just thought I was going crazy,
自分はおかしくなったけど
02:30
and then I thought, well,
now I'm not going crazy anymore.
再発することはないだろうと
思いました
02:32
About 20 percent of people, however,
しかし 20%の人々は
02:37
wind up with chronic, long-term PTSD.
慢性的で長期的なPTSDとなります
02:39
They are not adapted to temporary danger.
彼らは一時的な危険に適応できず
02:42
They are maladapted for everyday life,
支援を受けないと
日常生活に適応できません
02:45
unless they get help.
支援を受けないと
日常生活に適応できません
02:48
We know that the people
who are vulnerable to long-term PTSD
長期的なPTSDになりやすい人とは
02:49
are people who were abused as children,
幼児期に虐待をされたり
02:53
who suffered trauma as children,
幼児期にトラウマを抱えたり
02:56
people who have low education levels,
教育水準が低かったり
02:57
people who have psychiatric
disorders in their family.
家族に精神疾患がいる人たちです
03:00
If you served in Vietnam
統合失調症の兄弟がいて
03:03
and your brother is schizophrenic,
ベトナム戦争に行ったとすると
03:04
you're way more likely to get
long-term PTSD from Vietnam.
ベトナムから帰還して
長期的なPTSDにかかりやすくなります
03:07
So I started to study this
as a journalist,
私はジャーナリストとして
これを研究し始め
03:12
and I realized that there was something
really strange going on.
何か不可解なことが
起きているのに気付きました
03:15
The numbers seemed to be going
in the wrong direction.
統計の数字が おかしな傾向を
示していました
03:19
Every war that we have
fought as a country,
南北戦争を始めとして
03:22
starting with the Civil War,
アメリカが参戦した戦争では
03:24
the intensity of the combat has gone down.
闘いの激しさは
弱まってきているので
03:26
As a result, the casualty rates
have gone down.
死傷率は下がりましたが
03:30
But disability rates have gone up.
障害を負う割合は高まりました
03:34
They should be going
in the same direction,
この2つの割合は
同じ方向を向くべきなのに
03:36
but they're going in different directions.
逆の傾向を示しています
03:39
The recent wars in Iraq and Afghanistan
have produced, thank God,
イラクやアフガニスタンの最近の戦争では
03:43
a casualty rate about one third
of what it was in Vietnam.
死傷率は ありがたいことに
ベトナム戦争の約3分の1ですが
03:48
But they've also created --
障害を負う割合は
03:55
they've also produced
three times the disability rates.
3倍も高いのです
03:58
Around 10 percent of the US military
is actively engaged in combat,
米軍の約10%が
実際的な軍事行動に従事します
04:03
10 percent or under.
10%か ややこれを下回ります
04:10
They're shooting at people,
killing people,
銃で人を撃ち、人を殺し
04:11
getting shot at,
seeing their friends get killed.
銃で撃たれ、仲間が殺されるのを
目撃します
04:13
It's incredibly traumatic.
非常にトラウマ的な体験です
04:16
But it's only about 10 percent
of our military.
でも 米軍の10%にすぎません
04:17
But about half of our military has filed
しかし 米軍の約半数が
04:20
for some kind of PTSD compensation
from the government.
政府に PTSDに対する
何らかの形で補償を求めています
04:22
And suicide doesn't even fit into this
in a very logical way.
厳密な意味では
自殺はこれに当てはまりません
04:28
We've all heard the tragic statistic
of 22 vets a day, on average,
1日平均22人の退役軍人が
この国で自殺するという
04:33
in this country, killing themselves.
悲しい統計をお聞きになったことが
あると思います
04:39
Most people don't realize
でも 自殺者の大半が
04:43
that the majority of those suicides
are veterans of the Vietnam War,
ベトナム戦争に行った退役軍人だとは
知られていません
04:44
that generation,
彼らの世代や 彼らが自殺したことと
04:50
and their decision to take their own lives
actually might not be related
50年前のベトナム戦争との間に
因果関係は
04:52
to the war they fought 50 years earlier.
実際ないのかもしれません
04:56
In fact, there's no statistical connection
between combat and suicide.
事実 戦争と自殺の
統計的な関連はありません
05:00
If you're in the military
and you're in a lot of combat,
軍人として
より多くの戦闘に加わっても
05:04
you're no more likely to kill yourself
than if you weren't.
自殺する割合が
高くなることはないようです
05:07
In fact, one study found
事実 ある研究によると
05:11
that if you deploy to Iraq or Afghanistan,
イラクやアフガニスタンに配属されても
05:12
you're actually slightly less likely
to commit suicide later.
実際 後で自殺する割合は
僅かに低いくらいであると分かりました
05:14
I studied anthropology in college.
私は大学で人類学を勉強しました
05:20
I did my fieldwork
on the Navajo reservation.
ナバホ保護地区で実地調査を行い
05:22
I wrote a thesis on Navajo
long-distance runners.
ナパホの長距離走者に関する
論文を書きました
05:25
And recently, while
I was researching PTSD,
最近 PTSDの調査を始めてから
05:30
I had this thought.
私はこう考えるようになりました
05:35
I thought back to the work
I did when I was young,
若い時に行った研究に
立ち返ってみようと
05:38
and I thought, I bet the Navajo,
the Apache, the Comanche --
私はナバホ、アパッチ、コマンチが
05:41
I mean, these are very warlike nations --
とても好戦的な部族だと思いますが
05:45
I bet they weren't getting
PTSD like we do.
私たちのようにPTSDに
ならなかったと思います
05:47
When their warriors came back
from fighting the US military
米軍と戦ったり 部族間で戦う
05:52
or fighting each other,
戦士が帰還した時
05:55
I bet they pretty much just slipped
right back into tribal life.
部族の生活にすんなり
溶け込めたのだと思います
05:58
And maybe what determines
おそらく
06:03
the rate of long-term PTSD
長期的なPTSDになる決定要因は
06:05
isn't what happened out there,
戦場で何が起きたかではなく
06:08
but the kind of society you come back to.
帰還する社会に起因するのです
06:11
And maybe if you come back
to a close, cohesive, tribal society,
密接で団結力のある
部族社会に戻るのなら
06:14
you can get over trauma pretty quickly.
素早くトラウマを克服できます
06:20
And if you come back
to an alienating, modern society,
そして 人間関係が希薄な
現代社会に戻るのなら
06:23
you might remain traumatized
your entire life.
一生トラウマが残るかもしれません
06:28
In other words, maybe the problem
isn't them, the vets;
つまり 退役軍人の側ではなく
06:32
maybe the problem is us.
私たちの側に問題があるのです
06:35
Certainly, modern society
is hard on the human psyche
確かに現代社会は
私たちの尺度で測ると
06:39
by every metric that we have.
人間の精神にとって厳しいものです
06:44
As wealth goes up in a society,
社会が豊かになるにつれ
06:48
the suicide rate goes up instead of down.
自殺率は下がるどころか
上がったのです
06:53
If you live in modern society,
現代社会に住む皆さんは
06:57
you're up to eight times more likely
貧しい農業社会に暮らすよりも
07:00
to suffer from depression in your lifetime
鬱になる割合が
07:04
than if you live in a poor,
agrarian society.
8倍高いのです
07:06
Modern society has probably produced
the highest rates of suicide
現代社会は おそらく人類史上で
07:10
and depression and anxiety
and loneliness and child abuse
自殺率、鬱病、不安神経症
孤独、児童虐待などが
07:14
ever in human history.
最も高くなっています
07:17
I saw one study
ある研究では
07:20
that compared women in Nigeria,
ナイジェリアの女性 ―
07:22
one of the most chaotic
and violent and corrupt
政情不安定で暴力や汚職が蔓延る
07:25
and poorest countries in Africa,
アフリカの最貧国の1つで
暮らす女性と
07:28
to women in North America.
北米の女性を比較していました
07:31
And the highest rates of depression
were urban women in North America.
最も鬱病の割合が高いのは
北米の都会で暮らす女性でした
07:32
That was also the wealthiest group.
しかも 最も豊かな人々です
07:37
So let's go back to the US military.
話を米軍に戻しましょう
07:40
Ten percent are in combat.
10%が戦闘を経験し
07:44
Around 50 percent have filed
for PTSD compensation.
約50%が PTSD に対する
補償を申請しました
07:47
So about 40 percent of veterans
really were not traumatized overseas
退役軍人の約40%が赴任先では
トラウマにならなかったのに
07:53
but have come home to discover
they are dangerously alienated
帰国後 危険なほどの
疎外感や抑うつに苦しみます
07:59
and depressed.
帰国後 危険なほどの
疎外感や抑うつに苦しみます
08:04
So what is happening with them?
彼らに何が起こったのでしょうか?
08:08
What's going on with those people,
どうしたとことか
08:11
the phantom 40 percent that are troubled
but don't understand why?
40%の感じる 得体の知れない苦しみは
理由が分からないのです
08:13
Maybe it's this:
恐らく こういうことです
08:18
maybe they had an experience
of sort of tribal closeness
彼らは赴任先の所属部隊で
ある種の部族的閉鎖性を
08:19
in their unit when they were overseas.
経験しているのだと思います
08:24
They were eating together,
sleeping together,
一緒に食事を取り
一緒に眠り
08:27
doing tasks and missions together.
一緒に任務をこなしていました
08:30
They were trusting each other
with their lives.
生き抜くために
互いを信頼していました
08:32
And then they come home
そして帰国すると
08:36
and they have to give all that up
そういうものを全て無くすのです
08:38
and they're coming back
to a society, a modern society,
そして 社会に ― 現代社会に戻ると
08:41
which is hard on people
who weren't even in the military.
そこは 従軍経験の有無に関わらず
人々に厳しい社会なのです
08:45
It's just hard on everybody.
誰にとっても厳しいのです
08:48
And we keep focusing on trauma, PTSD.
我々はトラウマやPTSDを
注視し続けていますが
08:51
But for a lot of these people,
多くの軍人にとって
多分 トラウマは問題ではありません
08:56
maybe it's not trauma.
多くの軍人にとって
多分 トラウマは問題ではありません
08:59
I mean, certainly,
soldiers are traumatized
もちろん 軍人は
トラウマを抱えているので
09:00
and the ones who are
have to be treated for that.
治療を受けなくてはなりません
09:02
But a lot of them --
しかし 軍人の多くは
09:05
maybe what's bothering them
is actually a kind of alienation.
本当のところは ある種の疎外感に
悩まされているのかもしれません
09:06
I mean, maybe we just have
the wrong word for some of it,
PTSDという呼び方が
間違っているのなら
09:10
and just changing our language,
our understanding,
言い方や捉え方を変えることが
09:12
would help a little bit.
ちょっとした助けとなるでしょう
09:15
"Post-deployment alienation disorder."
兵役後の疎外感症候群(PDAD)
09:16
Maybe even just calling it that
for some of these people
こう呼ぶだけで
09:19
would allow them to stop imagining
思い込みが収まることでしょう
09:23
trying to imagine a trauma
that didn't really happen
実際に感じる情動を説明するために
09:26
in order to explain a feeling
that really is happening.
実際には生じていないトラウマを受けたと
思い込まなくて良いのです
09:29
And in fact, it's an extremely
dangerous feeling.
実際 疎外感はとても危険な感情です
09:32
That alienation and depression
can lead to suicide.
疎外感と抑うつから
自殺に追い込まれるのです
09:34
These people are in danger.
そういう人たちは
危険な状態にいます
09:37
It's very important to understand why.
理由を理解することは大変重要です
09:39
The Israeli military has a PTSD rate
of around one percent.
イスラエル軍のPTSDの割合は
約1%です
09:42
The theory is that everyone in Israel
is supposed to serve in the military.
数字が低い理由は ―
イスラエルでは全員入隊するようになっており
09:47
When soldiers come back
from the front line,
前線から帰還しても
09:53
they're not going from a military
environment to a civilian environment.
軍から民間へと
環境が変わることはありません
09:55
They're coming back to a community
where everyone understands
軍隊への理解がある社会に
10:00
about the military.
帰還するのです
10:05
Everyone's been in it
or is going to be in it.
全員が軍隊経験者か
入隊を控えた人たちなのです
10:06
Everyone understands
the situation they're all in.
全員が軍隊の状況を
理解しています
10:08
It's as if they're all in one big tribe.
あたかも全員が
1つの大きな部族にいるようです
10:11
We know that if you take a lab rat
ご存じのように
実験用ラットを捕らえ
10:14
and traumatize it and put it
in a cage by itself,
精神的ショックを与えて
単独で檻に入れると
10:16
you can maintain its trauma symptoms
almost indefinitely.
そのトラウマ症状が
ずっと続きます
10:19
And if you take that same lab rat
and put it in a cage with other rats,
同じラットを仲間と一緒に
檻に入れると
10:23
after a couple of weeks,
it's pretty much OK.
2週間後には
かなり良くなります
10:29
After 9/11,
9/11の後
10:35
the murder rate in New York City
went down by 40 percent.
ニューヨーク市の殺人率は
40%減少しました
10:38
The suicide rate went down.
自殺率も減少しました
10:41
The violent crime rate in New York
went down after 9/11.
9/11の後には ニューヨークの
暴力犯罪率も減少しました
10:44
Even combat veterans of previous wars
who suffered from PTSD
PTSDに苦しむ
前の戦争の退役軍人でさえ
10:49
said that their symptoms went down
after 9/11 happened.
9/11の後 症状が軽減したと語りました
10:54
The reason is that if you traumatize
an entire society,
なぜなら社会全体がトラウマを抱えると
10:58
we don't fall apart
and turn on one another.
バラバラにならず
互いに依存しあうからです
11:04
We come together. We unify.
団結し1つにまとまるのです
11:07
Basically, we tribalize,
基本的に 私たちには
強い結びつきがあり
11:09
and that process of unifying
feels so good and is so good for us,
1つになる過程を快く感じるので
11:11
that it even helps people
心の問題を抱える
11:17
who are struggling
with mental health issues.
人々さえも救うのです
11:18
During the blitz in London,
ロンドン大空襲では
11:22
admissions to psychiatric wards
went down during the bombings.
精神科病棟の入院患者が
減少しました
11:23
For a while, that was the kind of country
ある時期においては
米兵が帰還する祖国も
11:30
that American soldiers came
back to -- a unified country.
そのような国の姿にありました
心が一つになっていたのです
11:33
We were sticking together.
私たちは協力し合い
11:38
We were trying to understand
the threat against us.
自分たちに対する脅威を理解しようとし
11:39
We were trying to help
ourselves and the world.
自分たちや世界を助けようとしました
11:42
But that's changed.
それが変わってしまったのです
11:47
Now, American soldiers,
現在 米兵は ―
11:50
American veterans are coming back
to a country that is so bitterly divided
退役軍人は2大政党に
分裂した国に帰還します
11:52
that the two political parties
are literally accusing each other
そこでは文字通り互いを
11:57
of treason, of being
an enemy of the state,
反逆だの 国家の敵だのと罵り合い
12:02
of trying to undermine the security
and the welfare of their own country.
自国の治安や福祉を蝕んでいると
非難しています
12:06
The gap between rich and poor
is the biggest it's ever been.
貧富の格差がこれまでにない程
広がっています
12:10
It's just getting worse.
悪くなる一方です
12:15
Race relations are terrible.
人種間の関係も最悪です
12:16
There are demonstrations
and even riots in the streets
人種間の不公平さから
通りでデモや暴動が起きています
12:18
because of racial injustice.
人種間の不公平さから
通りでデモや暴動が起きています
12:21
And veterans know that any tribe
that treated itself that way -- in fact,
そして退役軍人は
どんな部族でも どんな小隊でも
12:24
any platoon that treated itself
that way -- would never survive.
そういうことをすれば
生き残れないことを知っています
12:28
We've gotten used to it.
私たちはそれに慣れてきました
12:34
Veterans have gone away
and are coming back
退役軍人が戦地から帰って
12:36
and seeing their own country
with fresh eyes.
新鮮な目で祖国を見ています
12:40
And they see what's going on.
現状を見ているのです
12:45
This is the country they fought for.
彼らはこの国のために戦ったのです
12:47
No wonder they're depressed.
だから 鬱になるのです
12:50
No wonder they're scared.
怖がるのです
12:51
Sometimes, we ask ourselves
if we can save the vets.
私たちは退役軍人を救えるのか
自問することもあります
12:55
I think the real question
is if we can save ourselves.
しかし 本当の問題は
自分たち自身を救えるのかだと思います
13:00
If we can,
もし救えれば
13:03
I think the vets are going to be fine.
退役軍人も良くなると思います
13:05
It's time for this country to unite,
祖国を守るために
戦った兵士を助けたいのなら
13:08
if only to help the men and women
who fought to protect us.
この国は団結する時なのです
13:13
Thank you very much.
ありがとうございました
13:19
(Applause)
(拍手)
13:20
Translator:Masako Kigami
Reviewer:Tomoyuki Suzuki

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Sebastian Junger - Journalist and documentarian
The author of "The Perfect Storm" and the director of the documentaries "Restrepo" and "Korengal," Sebastian Junger tells non-fiction stories with grit and emotion.

Why you should listen

Sebastian Junger thundered onto the media landscape with his non-fiction book, The Perfect Storm. A correspondent for Vanity Fair and ABC News, Junger has covered stories all across the globe, igniting a new interest in non-fiction. One of his main interests: war.

From 2007 to 2008, Junger and photographer Tim Hetherington embedded with the 173rd Airborne Brigade Combat Team in Afghanistan. They spent intensive time with the soldiers at the Restrepo outpost in the Korengal Valley, which saw more combat than any other part of Afghanistan. The experience became Junger's book WAR, and the documentary "Restrepo," which was nominated for the Academy Award for Best Documentary in 2011.

Junger and Hetherington planned to make a second documentary on the topic, "Korengal," meant to help soldiers and civilians alike understand the fear, courage and complexity involved in combat. It's a project that Junger decided to carry on after Hetherington was killed in Libya while covering the civil war there. Junger self-financed and released the film.

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