TEDGlobal 2009
Itay Talgam: Lead like the great conductors
Itajs Talgams: Vadīšana izcilu diriģentu gaumē
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Orķestra diriģentam ir milzīgs izaicinājums - radīt nevainojamu harmoniju, nepasakot ne vārda. Šajā aizraujošajā runā Itajs Talgams iepazīstina ar sešu ievērojamu 20.gs. diriģentu īpašo stilu, sniedzot būtisku mācību visiem vadītājiem.
Itay Talgam - Conductor and leadership expert
After a decade-long conducting career in his native Israel, Itay Talgam has reinvented himself as a "conductor of people" -- in government, academia, business and education. He is the author of The Ignorant Maestro. Full bio
After a decade-long conducting career in his native Israel, Itay Talgam has reinvented himself as a "conductor of people" -- in government, academia, business and education. He is the author of The Ignorant Maestro. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:16
The magical moment, the magical moment of conducting.
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Burvīgais mirklis, tas burvīgais diriģēšanas mirklis.
00:20
Which is, you go onto a stage. There is an orchestra sitting.
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Tas ir, tu uznāc uz skatuves. Priekšā ir orķestris.
00:22
They are all, you know, warming up and doing stuff.
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Viņi visi, ziniet, skaņo instrumentus un tādā garā.
00:26
And I go on the podium.
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Un es uzkāpju uz paaugstinājuma.
00:28
You know, this little office of the conductor.
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Tas ir tas mazais diriģenta birojs.
00:31
Or rather a cubicle, an open-space cubicle,
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Vai drīzāk - kabīne, atvērta kabīne,
00:34
with a lot of space.
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ļoti atvērta.
00:36
And in front of all that noise,
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Un visa tā trokšņa priekšā stāvot,
00:38
you do a very small gesture.
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Tu izdari pavisam nelielu žestu.
00:40
Something like this, not very pomp, not very sophisticated, this.
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Kaut ko šādu, ne pārāk izsmalcinātu, ne pārāk sarežģītu, lūk, šādi.
00:44
And suddenly, out of the chaos, order.
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Un te pēkšņi haoss pārvēršas kārtībā.
00:47
Noise becomes music.
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Troksnis pārvēršas mūzikā.
00:49
And this is fantastic. And it's so tempting
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Un tas ir fantastiski. Un ir tāds vilinājums
00:51
to think that it's all about me.
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domāt, ka tas viss manis dēļ.
00:53
(Laughter)
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(Smiekli)
00:55
All those great people here, virtuosos,
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Visi šie brīnišķīgie cilvēki šeit, virtuozi,
00:57
they make noise, they need me to do that.
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viņi rada troksni, un viņiem es esmu vajadzīgs, lai to darītu.
00:59
Not really. If it were that,
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Patiesībā nē. Ja tā būtu,
01:01
I would just save you the talk,
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es jums nemaz neteiktu šo runu
01:03
and teach you the gesture.
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un iemācītu jums šo žestu.
01:05
So you could go out to the world
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Un jūs varētu doties pasaulē
01:07
and do this thing in whatever company or whatever you want,
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un darīt šo lietu jebkurā uzņēmumā vai citur, kur gribētu,
01:10
and you have perfect harmony. It doesn't work.
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un jūs iegūtu perfektu harmoniju. Tā tas nenotiek.
01:12
Let's look at the first video.
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Paskatīsimies pirmo fragmentu.
01:14
I hope you'll think it's a good example of harmony.
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Es ceru, ka jūs piekritīsiet, ka tas ir labs harmonijas piemērs.
01:17
And then speak a little bit about how it comes about.
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Un tad es mazliet pastāstīšu, kā tas nākas.
01:21
(Music)
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(Mūzika)
02:17
Was that nice?
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Vai bija jauki?
02:19
So that was a sort of a success.
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Tie bija sava veida panākumi.
02:22
Now, who should we thank for the success?
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Nu, un kam mums jāpasakās par šiem panākumiem?
02:25
I mean, obviously the orchestra musicians
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Protams, orķestra mūziķi, acīmredzot
02:27
playing beautifully,
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spēlēja brīnišķīgi, -
02:29
the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra.
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Vīnes filharmonijas orķestris.
02:33
They don't often even look at the conductor.
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Viņi bieži pat neskatījās uz diriģentu.
02:35
Then you have the clapping audience, yeah,
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Tad vēl bija skatītāji, kuri aplaudēja, jā,
02:38
actually taking part in doing the music.
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faktiski piedaloties mūzikas veidošanā.
02:40
You know Viennese audiences usually don't interfere with the music.
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Redziet, Vīnes skatītāji parasti neiejaucas mūzikā.
02:44
This is the closest to an Oriental bellydancing feast
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Šis ir tuvākais austrumnieku vēderdejošanas svētkiem,
02:48
that you will ever get in Vienna.
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ko jūs jebkad varētu pieredzēt Vīnē.
02:50
(Laughter)
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(Smiekli)
02:51
Unlike, for example Israel, where audiences cough all the time.
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Ne tā kā, piemēram, Izraēlā, kur skatītāji visu laiku klepo.
02:54
You know, Arthur Rubinstein, the pianist, used to say
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Ziniet, Artūrs Rubinšteins, pianists, ir teicis:
02:57
that, "Anywhere in the world, people that have the flu, they go to the doctor.
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"Visur citur pasaule cilvēki, kuriem ir gripa, iet pie ārsta.
03:00
In Tel Aviv they come to my concerts."
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Telavivā viņi nāk uz maniem koncertiem."
03:03
(Laughter)
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(Smiekli)
03:04
So that's a sort of a tradition.
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Nu tā tāda tradīcija.
03:06
But Viennese audiences do not do that.
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Bet Vīnes skatītāji tā nedara.
03:08
Here they go out of their regular, just to be part of that,
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Šeit viņi atkāpjas no ierastā, tikai lai būtu daļa no tā,
03:13
to become part of the orchestra, and that's great.
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daļa no orķestra, un tas ir lieliski.
03:15
You know, audiences like you, yeah,
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Ziniet, skatītāji kā jūs, jā,
03:17
make the event.
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rada notikumu.
03:20
But what about the conductor? What can you say
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Bet kā ir ar diriģentu?
03:22
the conductor was doing, actually?
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Ko īsti darīja diriģents?
03:26
Um, he was happy.
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Hmm, viņš bija laimīgs.
03:29
And I often show this to senior management.
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Un es bieži šo rādu augstākā līmeņa vadītājiem.
03:32
People get annoyed.
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Viņi kļūst īgni.
03:34
"You come to work. How come you're so happy?"
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"Tu nāc uz darbu. Kā var būt, ka tu esi tik laimīgs?!"
03:36
Something must be wrong there, yeah? But he's spreading happiness.
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Kaut kas nav, kā vajag, ja? Bet viņš izstaro prieku.
03:39
And I think the happiness, the important thing is this happiness
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Un es domāju, ka prieks; ka ir būtiski, ka šis prieks
03:41
does not come from
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nenāk tikai no
03:44
only his own story and his joy of the music.
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viņa personiskā stāsta un viņa prieka par mūziku.
03:47
The joy is about enabling other people's stories
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Prieks ir par to, ka citu cilvēku stāstiem
03:51
to be heard at the same time.
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arī tajā pašā laikā ir iespējams būt sadzirdētiem.
03:53
You have the story of the orchestra as a professional body.
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Te ir orķestra, kā profesionāļu kopuma, stāsts.
03:57
You have the story of the audience as a community. Yeah.
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Te ir skatītāju, kā sabiedrības, stāsts. Jā.
04:00
You have the stories of the individuals
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Te ir katra orķestra mūziķa un
04:02
in the orchestra and in the audience.
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skatītāja atsevišķais stāsts.
04:04
And then you have other stories, unseen.
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Un vēl ir citi stāsti, neredzami.
04:07
People who build this wonderful concert hall.
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Cilvēku, kuri uzcēluši šo brīnišķīgo koncertzāli.
04:10
People who made those Stradivarius, Amati, all those beautiful instruments.
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Cilvēku, kuri radījuši šos Stradivari, Amati - visus šos skaistos instrumentus.
04:15
And all those stories are being heard at the same time.
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Un visi šie stāsti tiek sadzirdēti vienlaikus.
04:18
This is the true experience of a live concert.
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Lūk, dzīva koncerta īstā pieredze.
04:21
That's a reason to go out of home. Yeah?
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Tas ir iemesls, lai izietu no mājas, vai ne?
04:23
And not all conductors do just that.
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Taču ne visi diriģenti rīkojas šādi.
04:26
Let's see somebody else, a great conductor.
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Paskatīsimies vēl kādu; slavenu diriģentu
04:28
Riccardo Muti, please.
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Rikardo Muti, lūdzu.
04:31
(Music)
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(Mūzika)
05:07
Yeah, that was very short, but you could see
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Jā, tas bija ļoti īsi. Bet jūs varējāt ieraudzīt,
05:09
it's a completely different figure. Right?
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ka tas ir kas pilnīgi atšķirīgs, vai ne?
05:11
He's awesome. He's so commanding. Yeah?
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Viņš ir satriecošs. Viņš ir tik komandējošs, vai ne?
05:13
So clear. Maybe a little bit over-clear.
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Tik noteikts. Varbūt nedaudz par daudz noteikts.
05:18
Can we have a little demonstration? Would you be my orchestra for a second?
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Vai mēs varam pamēģināt? Vai jūs varētu būt mans orķestris uz brīdi?
05:21
Can you sing, please, the first note of Don Giovanni?
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Vai jūs, lūdzu, varat nodziedāt pirmo noti no Donžuāna?
05:23
You have to sing "Aaaaaah," and I'll stop you.
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Jums jādzied "Āāāāāā", un es jūs apturēšu.
05:26
Okay? Ready?
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Labi? Gatavi?
05:28
Audience: ♫ Aaaaaaah ... ♫
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Publika: ♫ Āāāāāā ... ♫
05:30
Itay Talgam: Come on, with me. If you do it without me
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Itajs Talgams: Nu, taču, kopā ar mani. Ja jūs to darāt bez manis,
05:32
I feel even more redundant than I already feel.
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es jūtos vēl vairāk nevajadzīgs, nekā līdz šim.
05:35
So please, wait for the conductor.
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Tādēļ, lūdzu, sagaidiet diriģenta zīmi.
05:38
Now look at me. "Aaaaaah," and I stop you. Let's go.
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Paskatieties uz mani. "Āāāāāā", un es jūs apturēšu. Aiziet.
05:41
Audience: ♫ ... Aaaaaaaah ... ♫
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Publika: ♫ ... Āāāāāāāāāāāā ... ♫
05:45
(Laughter)
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(Smiekli)
05:47
Itay Talgam: So we'll have a little chat later.
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Itajs Talgams: Nu, mums vēlāk būs jāaprunājas.
05:49
(Laughter)
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(Smiekli)
05:50
But ... There is a vacancy for a ...
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Bet ... Ir brīva vieta ...
05:54
But -- (Laughter)
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Bet -- (Smiekli)
05:58
-- you could see that you could stop an orchestra with a finger.
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-- jūs redzat, ka orķestri var apturēt ar vienu pirkstu.
06:01
Now what does Riccardo Muti do? He does something like this ...
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Savukārt, ko Rikardo Muti dara? Viņš dara aptuveni šādi ...
06:06
(Laughter)
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(Smiekli)
06:07
And then -- sort of -- (Laughter)
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Un tad -- kaut ko šādu -- (Smiekli)
06:10
So not only the instruction is clear,
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Tātad, ne tikai norādījumi ir skaidri,
06:13
but also the sanction, what will happen if you don't do what I tell you.
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bet arī sankcijas; kas notiks, ja tu nedarīsi to, ko es tev saku.
06:16
(Laughter)
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(Smiekli)
06:19
So, does it work? Yes, it works --
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Vai tas strādā? Jā, tas strādā --
06:23
to a certain point.
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-- līdz noteiktam brīdim.
06:25
When Muti is asked, "Why do you conduct like this?"
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Kad Muti jautā: "Kādēļ jūs diriģējat šādā veidā?"
06:27
He says, "I'm responsible."
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Viņš atbild: "Es esmu atbildīgs."
06:29
Responsible in front of him.
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Atbildīgs viņa priekšā.
06:31
No he doesn't really mean Him. He means Mozart,
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Nē, viņš nedomāja tiešām Viņu. Viņš domāja Mocartu,
06:33
which is -- (Laughter) -- like a third seat from the center.
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kurš ir -- (Smiekli) -- kurš sēž trešajā vietā no centra.
06:37
(Laughter)
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(Smiekli)
06:38
So he says, "If I'm --
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Tātad, viņš saka: "Ja es --
06:40
(Applause)
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(Aplausi)
06:42
if I'm responsible for Mozart,
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Ja es esmu atbildīgs Mocarta priekšā,
06:44
this is going to be the only story to be told.
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tad šis ir vienīgais stāsts, kas tiks stāstīts.
06:46
It's Mozart as I, Riccardo Muti, understand it."
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Tas ir Mocarts kā es, Rikardo Muti, to saprotu."
06:50
And you know what happened to Muti?
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Un vai jūs zināt, kas notika ar Muti?
06:52
Three years ago he got a letter signed by
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Pirms trim gadiem viņš saņēma vēstuli,
06:54
all 700 employees of La Scala,
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kuru bija parakstījuši visi 700 La Scala darbinieki,
06:57
musical employees, I mean the musicians,
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muzikālie darbinieki, es domāju mūziķus,
06:59
saying, "You're a great conductor. We don't want to work with you. Please resign."
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kurā bija teikts: "Jūs esat lielisks diriģents. Mēs nevēlamies strādāt ar Jums. Lūdzu, atkāpieties."
07:03
(Laughter)
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(Smiekli)
07:04
"Why? Because you don't let us develop.
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"Kādēļ? Tāpēc, ka Jūs neļaujat mums attīstīties.
07:07
You're using us as instruments, not as partners.
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Jūs mūs izmantojat kā instrumentus, ne kā partnerus.
07:10
And our joy of music, etc., etc. ..."
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Un mūsu muzicēšanas prieks... utt. utt."
07:12
So he had to resign. Isn't that nice?
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Un viņam bija jāatkāpjas no amata. Vai nav jauki?
07:14
(Laughter)
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(Smiekli)
07:16
He's a nice guy. He's a really nice guy.
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Viņš ir jauks cilvēks. Tiešām.
07:19
Well, can you do it with less control,
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Tātad, vai to var izdarīt ar mazāk kontroles
07:22
or with a different kind of control?
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vai ar citādāku kontroli?
07:24
Let's look at the next conductor, Richard Strauss.
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Paskatīsimies nākošo diriģentu, Rihardu Štrausu.
07:30
(Music)
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(Mūzika)
07:58
I'm afraid you'll get the feeling that I really picked on him because he's old.
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Es baidos, ka jūs iedomāsities, ka esmu viņu izvēlējies tādēļ, ka viņš ir vecs.
08:02
It's not true. When he was a young man
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Tā nav tiesa. Kad viņš bija jauns,
08:05
of about 30, he wrote what he called
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ap gadiem 30, viņš uzrakstīja, kā pats to nosauca,
08:07
"The Ten Commandments for Conductors."
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"Desmit baušļus diriģentiem".
08:09
The first one was: If you sweat by the end of the concert
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Pirmais skanēja: "Ja tu koncerta beigās esi nosvīdis,
08:12
it means that you must have done something wrong.
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tas nozīmē, ka esi darījis kaut ko nepareizi."
08:14
That's the first one. The fourth one you'll like better.
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Tas ir pirmais. Ceturtais jums patiks labāk.
08:16
It says: Never look at the trombones --
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Tajā teikts: "Nekad neskaties uz tromboniem --
08:18
it only encourages them.
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tas viņus tikai iedrošina."
08:20
(Laughter)
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(Smiekli)
08:25
So, the whole idea is really to let
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Tātad, pamatdoma ir ļaut,
08:27
it happen by itself.
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lai tas notiek pats no sevis.
08:29
Do not interfere.
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Netraucēt.
08:31
But how does it happen? Did you see
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Bet kā tas notiek? Vai jūs redzējāt,
08:34
him turning pages in the score?
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kā viņš pāršķir nošu lapas?
08:36
Now, either he is senile,
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Tātad, vai nu viņš ir vecs
08:38
and doesn't remember his own music, because he wrote the music.
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un neatceras pats savu mūziku, jo viņš to uzrakstīja.
08:41
Or he is actually transferring a very strong message to them, saying,
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Vai arī viņš dod tiem ļoti spēcīgu ziņu, sakot:
08:44
"Come on guys. You have to play by the book.
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"Nu, puiši. Jums jāspēlē no notīm.
08:48
So it's not about my story. It's not about your story.
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Tātad, tas nav mans stāsts. Tas nav jūsu stāsts.
08:50
It's only the execution of the written music,
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Ir vienkārši uzrakstītās mūzikas nospēlēšana
08:53
no interpretation."
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bez interpretācijas."
08:55
Interpretation is the real story of the performer.
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Interpretācija ir mākslinieka īstais stāsts.
08:58
So, no, he doesn't want that. That's a different kind of control.
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Tātad, nē, viņš to negrib. Tā ir cita veida kontrole.
09:01
Let's see another super-conductor,
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Paskatīsimies kādu citu izcilu diriģentu,
09:04
a German super-conductor. Herbert von Karajan, please.
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vācu izcilo diriģentu Herbertu fon Karajanu, lūdzu.
09:07
(Music)
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(Mūzika)
09:40
What's different? Did you see the eyes? Closed.
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Kas ir savādāk? Vai jūs redzējāt viņa acis? Aizvērtas.
09:43
Did you see the hands?
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Vai jūs redzējāt rokas?
09:46
Did you see this kind of movement? Let me conduct you. Twice.
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Vai jūs redzējāt šāda veida kustības? Ļaujiet man diriģēt jūs. Divreiz.
09:49
Once like a Muti, and you'll -- (Claps) -- clap, just once.
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Pirmo reizi kā Muti, un jums būs -- (plaudē) -- jāplaudē, tikai vienreiz.
09:51
And then like Karajan. Let's see what happens. Okay?
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Un tad kā Karajans. Paskatīsimies, kas sanāks. Labi?
09:53
Like Muti. You ready? Because Muti ...
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Kā Muti. Esat gatavi? Jo Muti ...
09:56
(Laughter) Okay? Ready? Let's do it.
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(Smiekli) Labi? Gatavi? Uz priekšu.
09:59
Audience: (Claps)
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Publika: (plaudē)
10:00
Itay Talgam: Hmm ... again.
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Itajs Talgams: Hmm ... vēlreiz.
10:02
Audience: (Claps)
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Publika: (plaudē)
10:04
Itay Talgam: Good. Now like a Karajan. Since you're already trained,
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Itajs Talgams: Labi. Tagad kā Karajans. Tā kā jūs jau esat iemācījušies,
10:06
let me concentrate, close my eyes. Come, come.
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ļaujiet man koncentrēties, aizvērt acis. Nu, lūdzu, lūdzu.
10:11
Audience: (Claps) (Laughter)
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Publika: (plaudē) (Smiekli)
10:13
Itay Talgam: Why not together? (Laughter)
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Itajs Talgams: Kādēļ nav kopā? (Smiekli)
10:15
Because you didn't know when to play.
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Tādēļ, ka jūs nezinājāt, kad jāspēlē.
10:17
Now I can tell you, even the Berlin Philharmonic
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Tagad es jums varu atklāt, ka pat Berlīnes filharmoniķi
10:19
doesn't know when to play.
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nezina, kad jāspēlē.
10:21
(Laughter)
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(Smiekli)
10:22
But I'll tell you how they do it. No cynicism.
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Bet es pastāstīšu, kā viņi dara. Bez cinisma.
10:24
This is a German orchestra, yes?
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Tas ir vācu orķestris, ja?
10:26
They look at Karajan. And then they look at each other.
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Viņi paskatās uz Karajanu. Un tad paskatās viens uz otru.
10:30
(Laughter)
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(Smiekli)
10:33
"Do you understand what this guy wants?"
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"Vai tu saproti, ko viņš no mums grib?"
10:36
And after doing that,
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Un pēc tam
10:38
they really look at each other, and the first players of the orchestra
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viņi tik tiešām skatās viens uz otru, un orķestra pirmās vijoles
10:40
lead the whole ensemble in playing together.
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vada visu ansambli, lai notiktu kopīga saspēle.
10:43
And when Karajan is asked about it
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Un kad Karajanam jautā par šo,
10:45
he actually says, "Yes, the worst damage
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viņš saka: "Jā, jo sliktākais,
10:47
I can do to my orchestra
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ko es varu izdarīt savam orķestrim,
10:49
is to give them a clear instruction.
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ir dot skaidrus norādījumus.
10:53
Because that would
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Jo tas neļautu
10:55
prevent the ensemble, the listening to each other
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izpausties ansamblim, neļautu viņiem sadzirdēt vienam otru,
10:59
that is needed for an orchestra."
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kas ir nepieciešams orķestrim."
11:01
Now that's great. What about the eyes?
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Jā, tas ir lieliski. Kā ar viņa acīm?
11:03
Why are the eyes closed?
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Kādēļ tās ir aizvērtas?
11:05
There is a wonderful story about Karajan conducting in London.
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Ir kāds brīnišķīgs stāsts par Karajanu, kad viņš diriģēja Londonā.
11:09
And he cues in a flute player like this.
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Un viņš deva norādes flautistam šādi.
11:12
The guy has no idea what to do. (Laughter)
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Tas puisis nezināja, ko darīt. (Smiekli)
11:15
"Maestro, with all due respect, when should I start?"
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"Maestro, ar vislielāko cieņu, bet kad man sākt?"
11:18
What do you think Karajan's reply was? When should I start?
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Un zināt, kāda bija Karajana atbilde? Kad man sākt?
11:21
Oh yeah. He says, "You start when you can't stand it anymore."
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O, jā. Viņš sacīja: "Sāciet, kad vairs nevarat izturēt."
11:25
(Laughter)
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(Smiekli)
11:28
Meaning that you know you have no authority to change anything.
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Ar to domājot, ka tev nav nekādas iespējas neko mainīt.
11:33
It's my music. The real music is only in Karajan's head.
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Tā ir mana mūzika. Īstā mūzika ir tikai Karajana galvā.
11:37
And you have to guess my mind. So you are under tremendous pressure
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Un tev ir jāuzmin, kas man prātā. Līdz ar to tu esi zem ārkārtīga spiediena,
11:40
because I don't give you instruction,
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jo es tev nedodu nekādus noradījumus,
11:42
and yet, you have to guess my mind.
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un tomēr tev jāuzmin, kas man prātā.
11:44
So it's a different kind of, a very spiritual but yet
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Tātad, tā ir atšķirīga, ļoti garīga, tomēr
11:46
very firm control.
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ļoti cieša kontrole.
11:49
Can we do it in another way? Of course we can. Let's go back
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Vai varam darīt savādāk? Protams, varam. Atgriezīsimies
11:51
to the first conductor we've seen:
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pie pirmā diriģenta, ko redzējām:
11:53
Carlos Kleiber, his name. Next video, please.
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Karloss Kleibers ir viņa vārds. Lūdzu, nākamo fragmentu.
11:57
(Music)
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(Mūzika)
12:53
(Laughter) Yeah.
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(Smiekli) Jā.
12:55
Well, it is different. But isn't that controlling in the same way?
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Nu, tas ir atšķirīgi. Bet vai arī šī nav kontrole tādā pašā veidā?
12:58
No, it's not, because he is not telling them what to do.
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Nē, nav. Jo viņš viņiem nesaka, ko darīt.
13:01
When he does this, it's not,
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Kad viņš šādi dara, tas nenozīmē:
13:03
"Take your Stradivarius and like Jimi Hendrix,
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"Paņemiet savus stradivari un kā Džimijs Hendriks
13:06
smash it on the floor." It's not that.
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sašķaidiet tos pret grīdu." Nē, tā tas nav.
13:08
He says, "This is the gesture of the music.
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Viņš saka: "Šis ir mūzikas žests.
13:10
I'm opening a space for you
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Es paveru jums telpu,
13:12
to put in another layer
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lai jūs liktu citu
13:14
of interpretation."
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interpretācijas slāni."
13:16
That is another story.
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Tas ir cits stāsts.
13:18
But how does it really work together
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Bet kā tas patiesībā strādā,
13:20
if it doesn't give them instructions?
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ja netiek doti norādījumi?
13:22
It's like being on a rollercoaster. Yeah?
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Tas ir kā uz amerikāņu kalniņiem. Ja?
13:24
You're not really given any instructions,
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Jums netiek doti nekādi norādījumi.
13:26
but the forces of the process itself keep you in place.
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Bet procesa spēki paši notur jūs savā vietā.
13:30
That's what he does.
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Tas ir tas, ko viņš dara.
13:32
The interesting thing is of course the rollercoaster does not really exist.
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Pats interesantākais, protams, ir tas, ka šis amerikāņu kalniņš neeksistē.
13:34
It's not a physical thing. It's in the players' heads.
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Tā nav fiziska lieta. Tas ir mūziķu galvās.
13:38
And that's what makes them into partners.
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Un tas viņus padara par partneriem.
13:41
You have the plan in your head.
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Jums savā galvā ir plāns.
13:43
You know what to do, even though Kleiber is not conducting you.
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Jūs zināt, ko darīt, pat ja Kleibers nediriģē.
13:46
But here and there and that. You know what to do.
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Tikai drusku mazliet. Jūs zināt, kas jādara.
13:49
And you become a partner building the rollercoaster,
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Un jūs kļūstat par partneri, būvējot amerikāņu kalniņu,
13:52
yeah, with sound,
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jā, ar skaņu,
13:54
as you actually take the ride.
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pa kuru vienlaikus arī braucat.
13:56
This is very exciting for those players.
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Tas ir ļoti aizraujoši šiem mūziķiem.
13:59
They do need to go to a sanatorium for two weeks, later.
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Viņiem vēlāk jādodas uz sanatoriju uz divām nedēļām.
14:01
(Laughter)
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(Smiekli)
14:02
It is very tiring. Yeah?
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Tas ir ļoti nogurdinoši, vai ne?
14:04
But it's the best music making, like this.
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Bet tā ir labākā mūzikas veidošana, šādi.
14:08
But of course it's not only about motivation
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Bet, protams, to veido ne tikai motivācija
14:11
and giving them a lot of physical energy.
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un daudz fiziskas enerģijas.
14:14
You also have to be very professional.
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Jums jābūt arī ļoti profesionālam.
14:16
And look again at this Kleiber.
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Un paskatieties vēlreiz uz Klaiberu.
14:18
Can we have the next video, quickly?
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Vai varētu, ātri, nākamo fragmentu?
14:20
You'll see what happens when there is a mistake.
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Jūs redzēsiet, kas notiks, kad būs radusies kļūda.
14:24
(Music) Again you see the beautiful body language.
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(Mūzika) Un atkal jūs redzat skaisto ķermeņa valodu.
14:27
(Music)
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(Mūzika)
14:33
And now there is a trumpet player who
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Un te trompetists
14:36
does something not exactly the way it should be done.
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izdara kaut ko greizi.
14:38
Go along with the video. Look.
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Sekojiet video. Re!
14:43
See, second time for the same player.
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Redziet, otro reizi tam pašam mūziķim.
14:49
(Laughter) And now the third time for the same player.
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(Smiekli) Un tagad trešo reizi tam pašam mūziķim.
14:56
(Laughter)
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(Smiekli)
14:57
"Wait for me after the concert.
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"Pagaidi pēc koncerta.
14:59
I have a short notice to give you."
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Man tev kas sakāms."
15:01
You know, when it's needed, the authority is there. It's very important.
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Saprotiet, kad ir nepieciešams, viņam ir vara. Tas ir ļoti svarīgi.
15:05
But authority is not enough to make people your partners.
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Bet ar varu vien nepietiek, lai cilvēki kļūtu par partneriem.
15:08
Let's see the next video, please. See what happens here.
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Paskatīsimies nākamo fragmentu, lūdzu. Redziet, kas šeit notiks.
15:10
You might be surprised having seen Kleiber
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Jūs varētu būt pārsteigti, redzot Klaiberu
15:12
as such a hyperactive guy.
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tik hiperaktīvu.
15:15
He's conducting Mozart.
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Viņš diriģē Mocartu.
15:17
(Music)
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(Mūzika)
15:20
The whole orchestra is playing.
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Viss orķestris spēlē.
15:22
(Music)
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(Mūzika)
15:24
Now something else.
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Tagad kas cits.
15:26
(Music)
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(Mūzika)
15:36
See? He is there 100 percent,
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Redziet? Viņš tur ir par simts procentiem,
15:40
but not commanding, not telling what to do.
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bet viņš nekomandē, nesaka, kas jādara.
15:42
Rather enjoying what the soloist is doing.
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Drīzāk, izbauda, ko dara solists.
15:45
(Music)
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(Mūzika)
15:48
Another solo now. See what you can pick up from this.
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Cits solo tagad. Paskatieties, ko jūs varat paņemt no šī.
15:51
(Music)
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(Muzika)
15:57
Look at the eyes.
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Paskatieties uz viņa acīm.
16:03
Okay. You see that?
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Labi. Jūs redzat?
16:05
First of all, it's a kind of a compliment we all like to get.
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Pirmkārt, tas ir tāds novērtējums, kādu mēs visi gribam saņemt.
16:08
It's not feedback. It's an "Mmmm ..." Yeah, it comes from here.
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Tā nav atgriezeniskā saite. Tas ir "Mmmm ... " Ja, tas nāk no šejienes.
16:11
So that's a good thing.
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Tātad, tas ir labs.
16:13
And the second thing is
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Un otrā lieta ir
16:15
it's about actually being in control,
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tas ir par kontrolēšanu
16:17
but in a very special way.
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bet ļoti īpašā veidā.
16:19
When Kleiber does -- did you see the eyes,
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Kad Klaibers diriģē -- vai jūs redzējāt acis,
16:22
going from here? (Singing)
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kā tās kustējās? (Dzied)
16:24
You know what happens? Gravitation is no more.
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Zināt, kas notiek? Pazūd gravitācija.
16:28
Kleiber not only creates a process,
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Klaibers ne tikai rada procesu,
16:30
but also creates the conditions in the world
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bet arī rada apstākļus pasaulē,
16:33
in which this process takes place.
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kurā šis process notiek.
16:36
So again, the oboe player
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Un atkal, obojists ir
16:38
is completely autonomous
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pilnīgi autonoms
16:40
and therefore happy and proud of his work,
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un tādēļ priecīgs un lepns par savu darbu,
16:43
and creative and all of that.
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un radošs un tā tālāk.
16:45
And the level in which Kleiber is in control is in a different level.
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Un līmenis, kurā Klaibers kontrolē, ir cits līmenis.
16:49
So control is no longer a zero-sum game.
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Līdz ar to kontrole vairs nav kādam zaudējums.
16:52
You have this control. You have this control. And all you put together,
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Ir šāda kontrole. Un ir šāda kontrole. Un saliekot visu kopā,
16:54
in partnership, brings about the best music.
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partnerībā top vislabākā mūzika.
16:58
So Kleiber is about process.
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Tātad, Klaibers ir par procesu.
17:00
Kleiber is about conditions in the world.
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Klaibers ir par apstākļiem pasaulē.
17:02
But you need to have process and content to create the meaning.
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Bet ir jābūt procesam un saturam, lai izveidotu jēgu.
17:06
Lenny Bernstein, my own personal maestro.
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Lenijs Bernštains, mans paša maestro,
17:08
Since he was a great teacher,
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jo viņš bija izcils skolotājs,
17:11
Lenny Bernstein always started from the meaning. Look at this, please.
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Lenijs Bernštains vienmēr sāka ar jēgu. Paskatieties šo, lūdzu.
17:17
(Music)
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(Mūzika)
18:16
Do you remember the face of Muti, at the beginning?
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Vai atceraties Muti seju, sākumā?
18:18
Well he had a wonderful expression, but only one.
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Jā, viņam bija brīnišķīga izteiksme, bet tikai viena.
18:21
(Laughter)
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(Smiekli)
18:22
Did you see Lenny's face?
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Vai redzējāt Lenija seju?
18:24
You know why? Because the meaning of the music is pain.
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Zināt, kādēļ tā? Tādēļ, ka šīs mūzikas jēga ir sāpes.
18:28
And you're playing a painful sound.
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Un jūs spēlējat smeldzīgu skaņu.
18:30
And you look at Lenny and he's suffering.
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Un paskatieties uz Leniju un viņš cieš.
18:33
But not in a way that you want to stop.
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Bet ne tā, lai jūs gribētu to pārtraukt.
18:35
It's suffering, like, enjoying himself in a Jewish way, as they say.
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Tās ir tādas ciešanas kā sevis iepriecināšana ebreju gaumē, kā mēdz teikt.
18:39
(Laughter)
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(Smiekli)
18:43
But you can see the music on his face.
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Bet jūs varat redzēt mūziku viņa sejā.
18:46
You can see the baton left his hand. No more baton.
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Jūs redzat, ka zizlis pameta viņa roku. Vairs nav zižļa.
18:49
Now it's about you, the player,
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Un tagad tu, mūziķis,
18:51
telling the story.
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stāsti šo stāstu.
18:53
Now it's a reversed thing. You're telling the story. And you're telling the story.
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Tagad tas ir apgriezti. Tu stāsti šo stāstu. Un tu stāsti šo stāstu.
18:55
And even briefly, you become the storyteller
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Un pēc mirkļa tu kļūsti par stāstnieku,
18:58
to which the community, the whole community, listens to.
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kurā apkārtējie, visi apkārtējie, klausās.
19:01
And Bernstein enables that. Isn't that wonderful?
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Un Bernštains to padara iespējamu. Vai tas nav brīnišķīgi?
19:05
Now, if you are doing all the things we talked about, together,
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Tātad, ja jūs darīsiet visas tās lietas, par kurām mēs runājām, kopā
19:09
and maybe some others,
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un varbūt vēl arī citas,
19:11
you can get to this wonderful point of doing without doing.
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jūs varat nonākt līdz šim brīnišķīgajam "darīt, neko nedarot".
19:14
And for the last video, I think this is simply the best title.
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Un pēdējam fragmentam, es domāju, šis vienkārši ir pats labākais nosaukums.
19:19
My friend Peter says,
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Mans draugs Pīters saka:
19:21
"If you love something, give it away." So, please.
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"Ja tu ko mīli, palaid to vaļā." Lūdzu.
19:25
(Music)
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(Mūzika)
20:29
(Applause)
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(Aplausi)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Itay Talgam - Conductor and leadership expertAfter a decade-long conducting career in his native Israel, Itay Talgam has reinvented himself as a "conductor of people" -- in government, academia, business and education. He is the author of The Ignorant Maestro.
Why you should listen
Itay Talgam finds metaphors for organizational behavior -- and models for inspired leadership -- within the workings of the symphony orchestra. Imagining music as a model for all spheres of human creativity, from the classroom to the boardroom, Talgam created the Maestro Leadership Program.
Talgam's workshops aim to help everyday people develop a musician's sense of collaboration, and a conductor's sense of leadership: that inner sense of being intuitively, even subconsciously, connected to your fellow players, giving what they need and getting what you need. It's this art of listening and reacting in the moment that makes for a swinging jazz combo, a sublime string quartet, a brilliant orchestra -- and great teams at work.
Before he conducted people, Talgam conducted music, including numerous orchestras in Europe. He was the first Israeli conductor to perform with the St. Petersburg Philharmonic Orchestra and the Leipzig Opera house. His book, The Ignorant Maestro, was published in 2015.
Itay Talgam | Speaker | TED.com