TEDGlobal 2009
Itay Talgam: Lead like the great conductors
義泰•塔更: 學習偉大指揮家的領導方式
Filmed:
Readability: 3.2
3,574,454 views
管絃樂指揮家面對的是領袖的極致挑戰：無須言語，就創造完美的和諧。在這場演說中，義泰•塔更展示六位20世紀偉大指揮家的獨特風格，為所有的領袖描繪出重要的學習課程。
Itay Talgam - Conductor and leadership expert
After a decade-long conducting career in his native Israel, Itay Talgam has reinvented himself as a "conductor of people" -- in government, academia, business and education. He is the author of The Ignorant Maestro. Full bio
After a decade-long conducting career in his native Israel, Itay Talgam has reinvented himself as a "conductor of people" -- in government, academia, business and education. He is the author of The Ignorant Maestro. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:16
The magical moment, the magical moment of conducting.
0
1000
4000
魔法的瞬間，指揮時的魔法瞬間
00:20
Which is, you go onto a stage. There is an orchestra sitting.
1
5000
2000
就是當你走上台，面對坐著的交響樂團
00:22
They are all, you know, warming up and doing stuff.
2
7000
4000
他們都在，就是，暖身，做些事
00:26
And I go on the podium.
3
11000
2000
我走上講台
00:28
You know, this little office of the conductor.
4
13000
3000
就是那個指揮家的小辦公室
00:31
Or rather a cubicle, an open-space cubicle,
5
16000
3000
或應該說是工作隔間，
00:34
with a lot of space.
6
19000
2000
後面空間很大的、開放式工作隔間，
00:36
And in front of all that noise,
7
21000
2000
在這些雜音面前，
00:38
you do a very small gesture.
8
23000
2000
做一個很小的動作
00:40
Something like this, not very pomp, not very sophisticated, this.
9
25000
4000
像這樣，不誇張、也不做作，像這樣。
00:44
And suddenly, out of the chaos, order.
10
29000
3000
突然間，從混亂中，秩序出現了。
00:47
Noise becomes music.
11
32000
2000
雜音變為音樂
00:49
And this is fantastic. And it's so tempting
12
34000
2000
這感覺真棒！幾乎會讓我
00:51
to think that it's all about me.
13
36000
2000
以為這一切，都是因為我的緣故。
00:53
(Laughter)
14
38000
2000
(笑聲)
00:55
All those great people here, virtuosos,
15
40000
2000
所有在場的大師、演奏家們
00:57
they make noise, they need me to do that.
16
42000
2000
只會發出雜音，他們需要我，才能演奏。
00:59
Not really. If it were that,
17
44000
2000
這不是真的。 要是真的這樣，
01:01
I would just save you the talk,
18
46000
2000
我就可以省了這次演講，
01:03
and teach you the gesture.
19
48000
2000
只要教你們指揮的手勢。
01:05
So you could go out to the world
20
50000
2000
好讓你們出去以後，
01:07
and do this thing in whatever company or whatever you want,
21
52000
3000
在公司或任何環境，
01:10
and you have perfect harmony. It doesn't work.
22
55000
2000
享受完美的和諧。 不，這行不通的。
01:12
Let's look at the first video.
23
57000
2000
讓我們看第一段影片
01:14
I hope you'll think it's a good example of harmony.
24
59000
3000
我希望，你們會認為，這是展現和諧的好例子，
01:17
And then speak a little bit about how it comes about.
25
62000
4000
然後，我會講一下，和諧是怎麼來的
01:21
(Music)
26
66000
4000
(音樂)
02:17
Was that nice?
27
122000
2000
很棒嗎?
02:19
So that was a sort of a success.
28
124000
3000
這真是一種成功。
02:22
Now, who should we thank for the success?
29
127000
3000
那我們該歸功給誰呢?
02:25
I mean, obviously the orchestra musicians
30
130000
2000
我是說，顯然是給樂團裡的音樂家。
02:27
playing beautifully,
31
132000
2000
他們演奏得這麼美，
02:29
the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra.
32
134000
4000
維也納愛樂管絃樂團
02:33
They don't often even look at the conductor.
33
138000
2000
他們甚至不常看著指揮者。
02:35
Then you have the clapping audience, yeah,
34
140000
3000
還有，那些打拍子的觀眾，
02:38
actually taking part in doing the music.
35
143000
2000
也實際參與了演出。
02:40
You know Viennese audiences usually don't interfere with the music.
36
145000
4000
其實，維也納的觀眾，多半不會干擾音樂進行
02:44
This is the closest to an Oriental bellydancing feast
37
149000
4000
這種表現，對維也納人來說，
02:48
that you will ever get in Vienna.
38
153000
2000
已經是最像在看一場東方肚皮舞的反應了。
02:50
(Laughter)
39
155000
1000
(笑聲)
02:51
Unlike, for example Israel, where audiences cough all the time.
40
156000
3000
不像，比方說，以色列的觀眾，老是咳嗽
02:54
You know, Arthur Rubinstein, the pianist, used to say
41
159000
3000
鋼琴家魯賓斯坦 曾經說過，
02:57
that, "Anywhere in the world, people that have the flu, they go to the doctor.
42
162000
3000
“世界任何地方的人感冒了，會去看醫生，
03:00
In Tel Aviv they come to my concerts."
43
165000
3000
只有在特拉維夫，他們感冒，就來我的演奏會。”
03:03
(Laughter)
44
168000
1000
(笑聲)
03:04
So that's a sort of a tradition.
45
169000
2000
所以，這好像傳統一樣。
03:06
But Viennese audiences do not do that.
46
171000
2000
維也納人不會這樣的。
03:08
Here they go out of their regular, just to be part of that,
47
173000
5000
在剛剛的影片裡，他們一反常態，成為音樂的一部分。
03:13
to become part of the orchestra, and that's great.
48
178000
2000
也變成樂團的一部份。 這個很棒！
03:15
You know, audiences like you, yeah,
49
180000
2000
就像你們一樣，
03:17
make the event.
50
182000
3000
讓這演講成功。
03:20
But what about the conductor? What can you say
51
185000
2000
但是指揮家呢? 你說這指揮家
03:22
the conductor was doing, actually?
52
187000
4000
到底在做什麼?
03:26
Um, he was happy.
53
191000
3000
嗯，他很快樂。
03:29
And I often show this to senior management.
54
194000
3000
我常常給高階主管看這個短片。
03:32
People get annoyed.
55
197000
2000
他們看了很生氣。
03:34
"You come to work. How come you're so happy?"
56
199000
2000
"你們來上班，幹嘛這麼開心?"
03:36
Something must be wrong there, yeah? But he's spreading happiness.
57
201000
3000
一定哪裡出錯了，是不是? 但是，他在散播快樂。
03:39
And I think the happiness, the important thing is this happiness
58
204000
2000
我想這種快樂，我認為重點是，這種快樂
03:41
does not come from
59
206000
3000
不只是因為
03:44
only his own story and his joy of the music.
60
209000
3000
他表達自己的故事，和他對音樂的喜愛
03:47
The joy is about enabling other people's stories
61
212000
4000
這種快樂，是讓別人也能同時
03:51
to be heard at the same time.
62
216000
2000
訴說自己的故事給觀眾聽。
03:53
You have the story of the orchestra as a professional body.
63
218000
4000
你有樂團自成一個專業團體的故事
03:57
You have the story of the audience as a community. Yeah.
64
222000
3000
你有觀眾自成一個社群的故事
04:00
You have the stories of the individuals
65
225000
2000
也有在樂團和觀眾裡，
04:02
in the orchestra and in the audience.
66
227000
2000
每一個人自己的故事。
04:04
And then you have other stories, unseen.
67
229000
3000
還有一些無形的故事：如，
04:07
People who build this wonderful concert hall.
68
232000
3000
那些建造這美好音樂廳的人的故事
04:10
People who made those Stradivarius, Amati, all those beautiful instruments.
69
235000
5000
還有那些製造名琴，如史特拉第瓦里提琴、阿瑪提提琴的人的故事
04:15
And all those stories are being heard at the same time.
70
240000
3000
這些所有的故事同時讓大家聽見
04:18
This is the true experience of a live concert.
71
243000
3000
這就是去聽現場演奏的真實經驗。
04:21
That's a reason to go out of home. Yeah?
72
246000
2000
這就是你出門的原因。 對吧?
04:23
And not all conductors do just that.
73
248000
3000
但不是所有的指揮家都這麼做。
04:26
Let's see somebody else, a great conductor.
74
251000
2000
我們來看另一位偉大的指揮家--
04:28
Riccardo Muti, please.
75
253000
2000
里卡多·慕提。請!
04:31
(Music)
76
256000
4000
(音樂)
05:07
Yeah, that was very short, but you could see
77
292000
2000
影片很短，但是你可以看出
05:09
it's a completely different figure. Right?
78
294000
2000
完全不同的個性，對吧?
05:11
He's awesome. He's so commanding. Yeah?
79
296000
2000
他很棒，他很莊嚴，對吧?
05:13
So clear. Maybe a little bit over-clear.
80
298000
5000
很明確。或許太過明確了。
05:18
Can we have a little demonstration? Would you be my orchestra for a second?
81
303000
3000
我們來個示範，怎麼樣? 你們充當我的樂團一下子好嗎?
05:21
Can you sing, please, the first note of Don Giovanni?
82
306000
2000
你們唱歌劇『唐·喬望尼』的第一個音，好不好?
05:23
You have to sing "Aaaaaah," and I'll stop you.
83
308000
3000
你們唱「啊---」，然後我示意停止
05:26
Okay? Ready?
84
311000
2000
好了嗎? 準備好了嗎?
05:28
Audience: ♫ Aaaaaaah ... ♫
85
313000
2000
觀眾唱: ♫ 啊 ... ♫
05:30
Itay Talgam: Come on, with me. If you do it without me
86
315000
2000
嘿，要跟著我! 如果自己先唱了
05:32
I feel even more redundant than I already feel.
87
317000
3000
我會更覺得自己是多餘的
05:35
So please, wait for the conductor.
88
320000
3000
所以，請等指揮的手勢
05:38
Now look at me. "Aaaaaah," and I stop you. Let's go.
89
323000
3000
看著我， "啊," 然後停止。來!
05:41
Audience: ♫ ... Aaaaaaaah ... ♫
90
326000
4000
觀眾唱: ♫ ... 啊 ... ♫
05:45
(Laughter)
91
330000
2000
(笑聲)
05:47
Itay Talgam: So we'll have a little chat later.
92
332000
2000
義泰·塔更: 我們等一下要談一談
05:49
(Laughter)
93
334000
1000
(笑聲)
05:50
But ... There is a vacancy for a ...
94
335000
4000
但是， ... 這裡有個職缺，是 ...
05:54
But -- (Laughter)
95
339000
4000
但是 -- (笑聲)
05:58
-- you could see that you could stop an orchestra with a finger.
96
343000
3000
-- 你看，我可以用一根手指，讓整個樂團停下來
06:01
Now what does Riccardo Muti do? He does something like this ...
97
346000
2000
但是里卡多·慕提怎麼做呢? 他做的像這樣...
06:06
(Laughter)
98
351000
1000
(笑聲)
06:07
And then -- sort of -- (Laughter)
99
352000
3000
然後 – 好像 -- (笑聲)
06:10
So not only the instruction is clear,
100
355000
3000
不但指令很清楚，
06:13
but also the sanction, what will happen if you don't do what I tell you.
101
358000
3000
連違背指令的後果，也很清楚
06:16
(Laughter)
102
361000
3000
(笑聲)
06:19
So, does it work? Yes, it works --
103
364000
4000
所以，這方式有用嗎? 是的--
06:23
to a certain point.
104
368000
2000
有用到一個程度。
06:25
When Muti is asked, "Why do you conduct like this?"
105
370000
2000
有人問慕提："你為什麼這樣指揮?"
06:27
He says, "I'm responsible."
106
372000
2000
他說: "我要負責"
06:29
Responsible in front of him.
107
374000
2000
"在他面前我要負責"
06:31
No he doesn't really mean Him. He means Mozart,
108
376000
2000
他不是指「祂」，他指的是莫札特
06:33
which is -- (Laughter) -- like a third seat from the center.
109
378000
4000
就是 -- (笑聲) – 好像他就坐在中間第三個位子
06:37
(Laughter)
110
382000
1000
(笑聲)
06:38
So he says, "If I'm --
111
383000
2000
所以他說，"如果我 --
06:40
(Applause)
112
385000
2000
(掌聲)
06:42
if I'm responsible for Mozart,
113
387000
2000
如果我要對莫札特負責，
06:44
this is going to be the only story to be told.
114
389000
2000
這是我，里卡多·慕提，
06:46
It's Mozart as I, Riccardo Muti, understand it."
115
391000
4000
所了解的莫札特，我唯一的詮釋"
06:50
And you know what happened to Muti?
116
395000
2000
你們知道慕提後來怎樣嗎?
06:52
Three years ago he got a letter signed by
117
397000
2000
三年前，他收到一封信
06:54
all 700 employees of La Scala,
118
399000
3000
來自所有La Scala 700位員工的聯名信，
06:57
musical employees, I mean the musicians,
119
402000
2000
音樂專業的員工們，音樂家們
06:59
saying, "You're a great conductor. We don't want to work with you. Please resign."
120
404000
4000
說："你是個偉大的指揮家。我們不要和你一起工作，請辭職。"
07:03
(Laughter)
121
408000
1000
(笑聲)
07:04
"Why? Because you don't let us develop.
122
409000
3000
"為什麼? 因為你不讓我們發展
07:07
You're using us as instruments, not as partners.
123
412000
3000
你把我們當成樂器，而不是伙伴。
07:10
And our joy of music, etc., etc. ..."
124
415000
2000
我們對音樂的喜樂，等等..."
07:12
So he had to resign. Isn't that nice?
125
417000
2000
所以他就只好辭職。這是不是挺好的?
07:14
(Laughter)
126
419000
2000
(笑聲)
07:16
He's a nice guy. He's a really nice guy.
127
421000
3000
他是個好人，他是個非常好的人
07:19
Well, can you do it with less control,
128
424000
3000
但是，可不可以少一些掌控?
07:22
or with a different kind of control?
129
427000
2000
或換一種方式掌控呢?
07:24
Let's look at the next conductor, Richard Strauss.
130
429000
4000
我們看下一位指揮家，李察·史特勞斯
07:30
(Music)
131
435000
4000
(音樂)
07:58
I'm afraid you'll get the feeling that I really picked on him because he's old.
132
463000
4000
你們可能認為我挑他毛病，是因為他很老了?
08:02
It's not true. When he was a young man
133
467000
3000
不是的。 當他還很年輕的時候，
08:05
of about 30, he wrote what he called
134
470000
2000
大概30歲，他寫了
08:07
"The Ten Commandments for Conductors."
135
472000
2000
"指揮家的十誡"
08:09
The first one was: If you sweat by the end of the concert
136
474000
3000
第一條是: 如果在音樂會結束時，你流汗了
08:12
it means that you must have done something wrong.
137
477000
2000
那表示你一定做錯了
08:14
That's the first one. The fourth one you'll like better.
138
479000
2000
那是第一條。 你們會更喜歡第四條。
08:16
It says: Never look at the trombones --
139
481000
2000
第四條: 絕對不要看長號手，
08:18
it only encourages them.
140
483000
2000
這樣只會更鼓勵他們，吹得更響。
08:20
(Laughter)
141
485000
5000
(笑聲)
08:25
So, the whole idea is really to let
142
490000
2000
所以，整個想法就是
08:27
it happen by itself.
143
492000
2000
讓音樂自己出現
08:29
Do not interfere.
144
494000
2000
不要干擾
08:31
But how does it happen? Did you see
145
496000
3000
但是音樂怎麼出現? 你看到--
08:34
him turning pages in the score?
146
499000
2000
他在翻樂譜嗎?
08:36
Now, either he is senile,
147
501000
2000
所以，要不是他老年癡呆，
08:38
and doesn't remember his own music, because he wrote the music.
148
503000
3000
不記得自己的音樂，因為這是他自己寫的樂譜，
08:41
Or he is actually transferring a very strong message to them, saying,
149
506000
3000
就是他在傳達一個很強烈的訊息，說--
08:44
"Come on guys. You have to play by the book.
150
509000
4000
"大家注意，你們必須照著譜演奏。
08:48
So it's not about my story. It's not about your story.
151
513000
2000
所以這不是我的故事，不是你的故事
08:50
It's only the execution of the written music,
152
515000
3000
只是把寫下的音符，執行出來罷了，
08:53
no interpretation."
153
518000
2000
不能有自己的衍譯"
08:55
Interpretation is the real story of the performer.
154
520000
3000
衍譯是表演者的事。
08:58
So, no, he doesn't want that. That's a different kind of control.
155
523000
3000
所以，他不要個人主義。 這是一種不同的掌控方式。
09:01
Let's see another super-conductor,
156
526000
3000
我們再看下一位超級指揮家，
09:04
a German super-conductor. Herbert von Karajan, please.
157
529000
3000
一位德國超級指揮家，卡拉揚，請--
09:07
(Music)
158
532000
4000
(音樂)
09:40
What's different? Did you see the eyes? Closed.
159
565000
3000
有什麼不同? 你注意到他的眼睛嗎? 是閉著的
09:43
Did you see the hands?
160
568000
3000
你看到他的手勢嗎?
09:46
Did you see this kind of movement? Let me conduct you. Twice.
161
571000
3000
你看到這種動作了嗎? 讓我指揮你們兩次，試試看。
09:49
Once like a Muti, and you'll -- (Claps) -- clap, just once.
162
574000
2000
第一次像慕提，你們 -- 拍手，一次就好
09:51
And then like Karajan. Let's see what happens. Okay?
163
576000
2000
然後我像卡拉揚。我們看看會發生什麼事情。好嗎?
09:53
Like Muti. You ready? Because Muti ...
164
578000
3000
像慕提。準備好了嗎? 因為慕提...
09:56
(Laughter) Okay? Ready? Let's do it.
165
581000
3000
(笑聲) 好嗎? 準備好了? 來!
09:59
Audience: (Claps)
166
584000
1000
(觀眾拍手)
10:00
Itay Talgam: Hmm ... again.
167
585000
2000
嗯 ... 再一次
10:02
Audience: (Claps)
168
587000
2000
(觀眾拍手)
10:04
Itay Talgam: Good. Now like a Karajan. Since you're already trained,
169
589000
2000
很好。現在換卡拉揚。因為你們已經被訓練好了
10:06
let me concentrate, close my eyes. Come, come.
170
591000
3000
讓我專心，閉上眼睛，來，來
10:11
Audience: (Claps) (Laughter)
171
596000
2000
(觀眾拍手) (笑聲)
10:13
Itay Talgam: Why not together? (Laughter)
172
598000
2000
怎麼不一致呢? (笑聲)
10:15
Because you didn't know when to play.
173
600000
2000
因為你們不知道什麼時候該開始。
10:17
Now I can tell you, even the Berlin Philharmonic
174
602000
2000
我跟你們說，即使是柏林愛樂
10:19
doesn't know when to play.
175
604000
2000
也不知道該何時開始!
10:21
(Laughter)
176
606000
1000
(笑聲)
10:22
But I'll tell you how they do it. No cynicism.
177
607000
2000
但是我告訴你們，他們怎麼辦。沒有嘲笑的意思。
10:24
This is a German orchestra, yes?
178
609000
2000
這是個德國的管絃樂團，對吧？
10:26
They look at Karajan. And then they look at each other.
179
611000
4000
他們看看卡拉揚，然後他們彼此對看
10:30
(Laughter)
180
615000
3000
(笑聲)
10:33
"Do you understand what this guy wants?"
181
618000
3000
"你知道這傢伙要我們怎樣嗎?"
10:36
And after doing that,
182
621000
2000
在那之後，
10:38
they really look at each other, and the first players of the orchestra
183
623000
2000
他們真的彼此對望，然後樂團裡的首席音樂家
10:40
lead the whole ensemble in playing together.
184
625000
3000
開頭帶領整個合奏，大家一起演奏
10:43
And when Karajan is asked about it
185
628000
2000
當有人問起卡拉揚
10:45
he actually says, "Yes, the worst damage
186
630000
2000
他說："對的，我對我的樂團
10:47
I can do to my orchestra
187
632000
2000
可能做的最大破壞
10:49
is to give them a clear instruction.
188
634000
4000
就是給他們一個清楚的指示。
10:53
Because that would
189
638000
2000
因為這樣的話，
10:55
prevent the ensemble, the listening to each other
190
640000
4000
大家就不可能合奏、彼此傾聽，
10:59
that is needed for an orchestra."
191
644000
2000
但樂團需要合奏、傾聽。"
11:01
Now that's great. What about the eyes?
192
646000
2000
這很好。 那眼睛呢?
11:03
Why are the eyes closed?
193
648000
2000
為什麼閉上眼睛?
11:05
There is a wonderful story about Karajan conducting in London.
194
650000
4000
卡拉揚在倫敦指揮時，有一個很棒的故事。
11:09
And he cues in a flute player like this.
195
654000
3000
他暗示一位長笛手，像這樣
11:12
The guy has no idea what to do. (Laughter)
196
657000
3000
那傢伙不知道該怎麼辦 (笑聲)
11:15
"Maestro, with all due respect, when should I start?"
197
660000
3000
"大師，請問您，我什麼時候該開始?"
11:18
What do you think Karajan's reply was? When should I start?
198
663000
3000
你猜卡拉揚怎麼回答? 我什麼時候開始演奏?
11:21
Oh yeah. He says, "You start when you can't stand it anymore."
199
666000
4000
嗯，他說："你再也忍不住的時候，就開始"
11:25
(Laughter)
200
670000
3000
(笑聲)
11:28
Meaning that you know you have no authority to change anything.
201
673000
5000
意思是：你沒有權力改變任何東西，
11:33
It's my music. The real music is only in Karajan's head.
202
678000
4000
這是我的音樂。真正的音樂只在卡拉揚的腦子裡。
11:37
And you have to guess my mind. So you are under tremendous pressure
203
682000
3000
你要猜測我的心思。 所以你的壓力很大，
11:40
because I don't give you instruction,
204
685000
2000
因為我不會給你指示，
11:42
and yet, you have to guess my mind.
205
687000
2000
但是，你要揣測我的心意。
11:44
So it's a different kind of, a very spiritual but yet
206
689000
2000
所以這是一種不同的指揮方式，非常的靈性，但是--
11:46
very firm control.
207
691000
3000
也全在嚴格掌控中。
11:49
Can we do it in another way? Of course we can. Let's go back
208
694000
2000
我們可以用其他的方式嗎? 當然可以。我們回頭
11:51
to the first conductor we've seen:
209
696000
2000
看我們剛才看過的第一位指揮家--
11:53
Carlos Kleiber, his name. Next video, please.
210
698000
2000
他是卡洛斯·克萊伯。請放下一段影片。
11:57
(Music)
211
702000
4000
(音樂)
12:53
(Laughter) Yeah.
212
758000
2000
(笑聲) 很棒！
12:55
Well, it is different. But isn't that controlling in the same way?
213
760000
3000
這不一樣，但是不是也用同樣的方式掌控呢?
12:58
No, it's not, because he is not telling them what to do.
214
763000
3000
不是的。因為他沒有告訴他們該怎麼做。
13:01
When he does this, it's not,
215
766000
2000
當他這麼做的時候，那不是意味：
13:03
"Take your Stradivarius and like Jimi Hendrix,
216
768000
3000
"把你的百萬名琴，像吉米·亨德里克斯那樣，
13:06
smash it on the floor." It's not that.
217
771000
2000
砸在地上"。他不是那樣的。
13:08
He says, "This is the gesture of the music.
218
773000
2000
他說： "這是表現音樂的手勢
13:10
I'm opening a space for you
219
775000
2000
我為你打開一個空間
13:12
to put in another layer
220
777000
2000
讓你放入另一個層次，
13:14
of interpretation."
221
779000
2000
也就是衍譯。"
13:16
That is another story.
222
781000
2000
不過這是另一回事。
13:18
But how does it really work together
223
783000
2000
但，若這些動作不是指令，
13:20
if it doesn't give them instructions?
224
785000
2000
他們是怎麼合作的呢?
13:22
It's like being on a rollercoaster. Yeah?
225
787000
2000
這就像坐雲霄飛車。知道嗎?
13:24
You're not really given any instructions,
226
789000
2000
你們沒有接受任何指令
13:26
but the forces of the process itself keep you in place.
227
791000
4000
但是那過程中的力量就會領著你走
13:30
That's what he does.
228
795000
2000
這就是他的作法
13:32
The interesting thing is of course the rollercoaster does not really exist.
229
797000
2000
有趣的是，當然，實際上並沒有雲霄飛車在跑
13:34
It's not a physical thing. It's in the players' heads.
230
799000
4000
實體上沒有。卻在大家的腦袋裡。
13:38
And that's what makes them into partners.
231
803000
3000
這就是讓他們成為夥伴的方法。
13:41
You have the plan in your head.
232
806000
2000
在你腦袋裡有個計畫
13:43
You know what to do, even though Kleiber is not conducting you.
233
808000
3000
即使克萊伯沒在指揮，你也知道該做什麼
13:46
But here and there and that. You know what to do.
234
811000
3000
就算他在這樣、那樣，但你知道該做什麼。
13:49
And you become a partner building the rollercoaster,
235
814000
3000
然後，你們就成為一起建造雲霄飛車的夥伴
13:52
yeah, with sound,
236
817000
2000
是的，用聲音建的雲霄飛車，
13:54
as you actually take the ride.
237
819000
2000
就像你真的去坐了一樣。
13:56
This is very exciting for those players.
238
821000
3000
對這些團員來說，這是很棒的。
13:59
They do need to go to a sanatorium for two weeks, later.
239
824000
2000
結束之後，他們會去休養兩週
14:01
(Laughter)
240
826000
1000
(笑聲)
14:02
It is very tiring. Yeah?
241
827000
2000
這很累的，對吧?
14:04
But it's the best music making, like this.
242
829000
4000
但卻創造了最棒的音樂，像這樣。
14:08
But of course it's not only about motivation
243
833000
3000
當然，這不光靠動機，
14:11
and giving them a lot of physical energy.
244
836000
3000
和提供所需的大量體能
14:14
You also have to be very professional.
245
839000
2000
也需要非常的專業。
14:16
And look again at this Kleiber.
246
841000
2000
再看一次，克萊伯
14:18
Can we have the next video, quickly?
247
843000
2000
我們快快看下一個影片，好嗎?
14:20
You'll see what happens when there is a mistake.
248
845000
4000
你會看到出錯時的反應。
14:24
(Music) Again you see the beautiful body language.
249
849000
3000
(音樂) 再次看到美妙的身體語言
14:27
(Music)
250
852000
3000
(音樂)
14:33
And now there is a trumpet player who
251
858000
3000
有個小號手
14:36
does something not exactly the way it should be done.
252
861000
2000
吹錯了
14:38
Go along with the video. Look.
253
863000
2000
看影片，你看
14:43
See, second time for the same player.
254
868000
4000
看到嗎? 第二次，同樣的人犯錯
14:49
(Laughter) And now the third time for the same player.
255
874000
3000
(笑聲) 第三次又犯錯
14:56
(Laughter)
256
881000
1000
(笑聲)
14:57
"Wait for me after the concert.
257
882000
2000
"演奏結束之後，等我一下
14:59
I have a short notice to give you."
258
884000
2000
有點事情要跟你談"
15:01
You know, when it's needed, the authority is there. It's very important.
259
886000
4000
你看，需要的時候，還是有權威的。這很重要。
15:05
But authority is not enough to make people your partners.
260
890000
3000
但僅有權威，不足以讓人成為你的夥伴。
15:08
Let's see the next video, please. See what happens here.
261
893000
2000
讓我再看下一段影片。看看發生什麼事。
15:10
You might be surprised having seen Kleiber
262
895000
2000
你可能很訝異--
15:12
as such a hyperactive guy.
263
897000
3000
相較克萊伯剛才這麼過動
15:15
He's conducting Mozart.
264
900000
2000
他在指揮莫札特的音樂
15:17
(Music)
265
902000
3000
(音樂)
15:20
The whole orchestra is playing.
266
905000
2000
整個樂團都在演奏
15:22
(Music)
267
907000
2000
(音樂)
15:24
Now something else.
268
909000
2000
這邊出現了點變化
15:26
(Music)
269
911000
3000
(音樂)
15:36
See? He is there 100 percent,
270
921000
4000
看到了嗎?他完全融入，
15:40
but not commanding, not telling what to do.
271
925000
2000
而且不指揮，不說該怎麼做
15:42
Rather enjoying what the soloist is doing.
272
927000
3000
只是享受那位獨奏的音樂
15:45
(Music)
273
930000
3000
(音樂)
15:48
Another solo now. See what you can pick up from this.
274
933000
3000
另外一段獨奏。看看，你可以從這裡發現什麼
15:51
(Music)
275
936000
3000
(音樂)
15:57
Look at the eyes.
276
942000
2000
你們看他的眼睛
16:03
Okay. You see that?
277
948000
2000
好，看到了嗎?
16:05
First of all, it's a kind of a compliment we all like to get.
278
950000
3000
首先，那是我們每個人都想得到的讚賞的神情
16:08
It's not feedback. It's an "Mmmm ..." Yeah, it comes from here.
279
953000
3000
不是回饋，是"嗯 ..." 是，從這裡發出來的
16:11
So that's a good thing.
280
956000
2000
所以這是好事
16:13
And the second thing is
281
958000
2000
第二呢?
16:15
it's about actually being in control,
282
960000
2000
就是真正的掌控，
16:17
but in a very special way.
283
962000
2000
但，是以很特殊的方式。
16:19
When Kleiber does -- did you see the eyes,
284
964000
3000
當克萊伯做這個動作 – 你有注意他的眼睛嗎?
16:22
going from here? (Singing)
285
967000
2000
從這裡，這樣?
16:24
You know what happens? Gravitation is no more.
286
969000
4000
你知道發生什麼事了嗎? 地心引力不存在了
16:28
Kleiber not only creates a process,
287
973000
2000
克萊伯不只創造了一個過程
16:30
but also creates the conditions in the world
288
975000
3000
也創造了世界的狀態
16:33
in which this process takes place.
289
978000
3000
在狀態裡，進行這過程
16:36
So again, the oboe player
290
981000
2000
所以，這位雙簧管樂手
16:38
is completely autonomous
291
983000
2000
是完全自主的
16:40
and therefore happy and proud of his work,
292
985000
3000
所以對自己的表現既開心又驕傲
16:43
and creative and all of that.
293
988000
2000
而且有創造性等等。
16:45
And the level in which Kleiber is in control is in a different level.
294
990000
4000
克萊伯所掌控的，是在另一個層次
16:49
So control is no longer a zero-sum game.
295
994000
3000
他讓掌控不再是零合賽局
16:52
You have this control. You have this control. And all you put together,
296
997000
2000
你有這種掌控，你有那種掌控，然後大家合在一起，
16:54
in partnership, brings about the best music.
297
999000
4000
像夥伴一樣，奏出最棒的音樂
16:58
So Kleiber is about process.
298
1003000
2000
所以，克萊伯會關注過程
17:00
Kleiber is about conditions in the world.
299
1005000
2000
克萊伯會關注整體環境的狀態。
17:02
But you need to have process and content to create the meaning.
300
1007000
4000
但你需要過程和內容，來創造意義。
17:06
Lenny Bernstein, my own personal maestro.
301
1011000
2000
倫納德·伯恩斯坦，我最景仰的指揮大師
17:08
Since he was a great teacher,
302
1013000
3000
他是個偉大的老師
17:11
Lenny Bernstein always started from the meaning. Look at this, please.
303
1016000
6000
倫納德·伯恩斯坦總是從意義著手。 看看這段影片。
17:17
(Music)
304
1022000
4000
(音樂)
18:16
Do you remember the face of Muti, at the beginning?
305
1081000
2000
你們記得慕提的臉嗎?一開始的時候?
18:18
Well he had a wonderful expression, but only one.
306
1083000
3000
他的表情很棒，但只有一個表情
18:21
(Laughter)
307
1086000
1000
(笑聲)
18:22
Did you see Lenny's face?
308
1087000
2000
你們看到倫納德的臉嗎?
18:24
You know why? Because the meaning of the music is pain.
309
1089000
4000
知道為什麼嗎? 因為這個音樂在表達痛苦。
18:28
And you're playing a painful sound.
310
1093000
2000
正在演奏的是痛苦的聲音。
18:30
And you look at Lenny and he's suffering.
311
1095000
3000
你看到倫納德，他正在受苦。
18:33
But not in a way that you want to stop.
312
1098000
2000
但，不是你想讓他停下來的那種苦，
18:35
It's suffering, like, enjoying himself in a Jewish way, as they say.
313
1100000
4000
是受苦。是所謂「猶太人自得其樂」的苦。
18:39
(Laughter)
314
1104000
4000
(笑聲)
18:43
But you can see the music on his face.
315
1108000
3000
但是，在他的臉上可以看見音樂
18:46
You can see the baton left his hand. No more baton.
316
1111000
3000
你們可以看見他沒有用指揮棒。不需要指揮棒了!
18:49
Now it's about you, the player,
317
1114000
2000
現在是你，演奏者--
18:51
telling the story.
318
1116000
2000
在說故事
18:53
Now it's a reversed thing. You're telling the story. And you're telling the story.
319
1118000
2000
這是反過來的。 你正在說故事，所以就由你來說故事。
18:55
And even briefly, you become the storyteller
320
1120000
3000
即使很短暫，你就成了說故事的人
18:58
to which the community, the whole community, listens to.
321
1123000
3000
講故事，給所有的群眾聽
19:01
And Bernstein enables that. Isn't that wonderful?
322
1126000
4000
伯恩斯坦讓它發生。是不是很棒?
19:05
Now, if you are doing all the things we talked about, together,
323
1130000
4000
如果你們一起，實踐了所有我講過的事
19:09
and maybe some others,
324
1134000
2000
或許還有一些我沒講到的
19:11
you can get to this wonderful point of doing without doing.
325
1136000
3000
你就可以到達「無為而治」的境界了
19:14
And for the last video, I think this is simply the best title.
326
1139000
5000
無為而治，就是最後這段影片，最好的標題
19:19
My friend Peter says,
327
1144000
2000
我的朋友彼得說：
19:21
"If you love something, give it away." So, please.
328
1146000
4000
"把你所愛的送出去"。 所以，請。
19:25
(Music)
329
1150000
4000
(音樂)
20:29
(Applause)
330
1214000
17000
(掌聲)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Itay Talgam - Conductor and leadership expertAfter a decade-long conducting career in his native Israel, Itay Talgam has reinvented himself as a "conductor of people" -- in government, academia, business and education. He is the author of The Ignorant Maestro.
Why you should listen
Itay Talgam finds metaphors for organizational behavior -- and models for inspired leadership -- within the workings of the symphony orchestra. Imagining music as a model for all spheres of human creativity, from the classroom to the boardroom, Talgam created the Maestro Leadership Program.
Talgam's workshops aim to help everyday people develop a musician's sense of collaboration, and a conductor's sense of leadership: that inner sense of being intuitively, even subconsciously, connected to your fellow players, giving what they need and getting what you need. It's this art of listening and reacting in the moment that makes for a swinging jazz combo, a sublime string quartet, a brilliant orchestra -- and great teams at work.
Before he conducted people, Talgam conducted music, including numerous orchestras in Europe. He was the first Israeli conductor to perform with the St. Petersburg Philharmonic Orchestra and the Leipzig Opera house. His book, The Ignorant Maestro, was published in 2015.
Itay Talgam | Speaker | TED.com