TEDGlobal 2009
Itay Talgam: Lead like the great conductors
Itay Talgam: Lidera como os grandes directores
Filmed:
Readability: 3.2
3,574,454 views
Un director de orquestra enfronta o reto definitivo do liderado: crear unha harmonía perfecta sen pronunciar unha palabra. Nesta engaiolante charla, Itay Talgam demostra os peculiares estilos de seis grandes directores do século XX para ilustrar leccións cruciais para todos os líderes.
Itay Talgam - Conductor and leadership expert
After a decade-long conducting career in his native Israel, Itay Talgam has reinvented himself as a "conductor of people" -- in government, academia, business and education. He is the author of The Ignorant Maestro. Full bio
After a decade-long conducting career in his native Israel, Itay Talgam has reinvented himself as a "conductor of people" -- in government, academia, business and education. He is the author of The Ignorant Maestro. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:16
The magical moment, the magical moment of conducting.
0
1000
4000
O momento máxico, o momento máxico da dirección.
00:20
Which is, you go onto a stage. There is an orchestra sitting.
1
5000
2000
Isto é, cando subes no escenario. Unha orquestra sentada.
00:22
They are all, you know, warming up and doing stuff.
2
7000
4000
Están todos no aquecemento e ensaiando.
00:26
And I go on the podium.
3
11000
2000
E subo ao estrado.
00:28
You know, this little office of the conductor.
4
13000
3000
A pequena oficina do director.
00:31
Or rather a cubicle, an open-space cubicle,
5
16000
3000
Ou máis ben o seu cubículo, un cubículo aberto,
00:34
with a lot of space.
6
19000
2000
cunha chea de espacio.
00:36
And in front of all that noise,
7
21000
2000
E fronte todo ese ruido,
00:38
you do a very small gesture.
8
23000
2000
fas un pequeno xesto.
00:40
Something like this, not very pomp, not very sophisticated, this.
9
25000
4000
Algo como isto, non moi pomposo, non moi sofisticado, isto.
00:44
And suddenly, out of the chaos, order.
10
29000
3000
E de pronto, de entre o caos, a orde.
00:47
Noise becomes music.
11
32000
2000
O ruído transfórmase en música.
00:49
And this is fantastic. And it's so tempting
12
34000
2000
E isto é fantástico. E é tan tentador
00:51
to think that it's all about me.
13
36000
2000
pensar que todo ten que ver comigo.
00:53
(Laughter)
14
38000
2000
(Risas)
00:55
All those great people here, virtuosos,
15
40000
2000
Todas esas persoas, virtuosos,
00:57
they make noise, they need me to do that.
16
42000
2000
que fan ruído, precisan que eu faga iso.
00:59
Not really. If it were that,
17
44000
2000
Realmente non. Se fose iso,
01:01
I would just save you the talk,
18
46000
2000
aforraríavos a charla,
01:03
and teach you the gesture.
19
48000
2000
e ensinaríavos o xesto.
01:05
So you could go out to the world
20
50000
2000
De modo que puidesedes sair ao mundo
01:07
and do this thing in whatever company or whatever you want,
21
52000
3000
e facelo en calquera empresa ou en calquera sitio que queirades,
01:10
and you have perfect harmony. It doesn't work.
22
55000
2000
para conseguir unha harmonía perfecta. Non funciona.
01:12
Let's look at the first video.
23
57000
2000
Vexamos o primeiro video.
01:14
I hope you'll think it's a good example of harmony.
24
59000
3000
Espero que pensedes que é un bon exemplo de harmonía.
01:17
And then speak a little bit about how it comes about.
25
62000
4000
E despois falamos un pouco de como chega.
01:21
(Music)
26
66000
4000
(Música)
02:17
Was that nice?
27
122000
2000
Foi bonito?
02:19
So that was a sort of a success.
28
124000
3000
Foi un tipo de éxito.
02:22
Now, who should we thank for the success?
29
127000
3000
Agora, a quen deberiamos agradecer polo resultado?
02:25
I mean, obviously the orchestra musicians
30
130000
2000
Quero dicir, naturalmente aos músicos da orquestra
02:27
playing beautifully,
31
132000
2000
tocando ben,
02:29
the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra.
32
134000
4000
a Orquestra Filarmónica de Viena.
02:33
They don't often even look at the conductor.
33
138000
2000
Nin sequera adoitan mirar ao director.
02:35
Then you have the clapping audience, yeah,
34
140000
3000
E tamén está o auditorio que aplaude,
02:38
actually taking part in doing the music.
35
143000
2000
en realidade formando parte de música resultante.
02:40
You know Viennese audiences usually don't interfere with the music.
36
145000
4000
Sabedes que os auditorios en Viena non interactúan normalmente coa música.
02:44
This is the closest to an Oriental bellydancing feast
37
149000
4000
Isto é o máis próximo a un festival oriental de baile do ventre
02:48
that you will ever get in Vienna.
38
153000
2000
que estarás en Viena.
02:50
(Laughter)
39
155000
1000
(Risas)
02:51
Unlike, for example Israel, where audiences cough all the time.
40
156000
3000
Diferente a Israel, por exemplo, onde o auditorio tuse todo o tempo.
02:54
You know, Arthur Rubinstein, the pianist, used to say
41
159000
3000
Arthur Rubinstein, o pianista, adoitaba dicir
02:57
that, "Anywhere in the world, people that have the flu, they go to the doctor.
42
162000
3000
que "en todas partes do mundo, a xente cando ten gripe, vai ao médico.
03:00
In Tel Aviv they come to my concerts."
43
165000
3000
En Tel Aviv veñen aos meus concertos".
03:03
(Laughter)
44
168000
1000
(Risas)
03:04
So that's a sort of a tradition.
45
169000
2000
Así que é algún tipo de tradición.
03:06
But Viennese audiences do not do that.
46
171000
2000
Pero os auditorios de Viena non fan iso.
03:08
Here they go out of their regular, just to be part of that,
47
173000
5000
Aquí sáense do normal, só para ser parte diso,
03:13
to become part of the orchestra, and that's great.
48
178000
2000
para ser parte da orquestra e iso e xenial.
03:15
You know, audiences like you, yeah,
49
180000
2000
Sabedes, auditorios coma vos
03:17
make the event.
50
182000
3000
son os que fan o evento.
03:20
But what about the conductor? What can you say
51
185000
2000
Pero que pasa co director? Que podedes dicir
03:22
the conductor was doing, actually?
52
187000
4000
que estaba a facer en realidade?
03:26
Um, he was happy.
53
191000
3000
Um, estaba contento.
03:29
And I often show this to senior management.
54
194000
3000
E normalmente mostro isto a xestores senior.
03:32
People get annoyed.
55
197000
2000
A xente enfádase.
03:34
"You come to work. How come you're so happy?"
56
199000
2000
"Vés a traballar. Como é que estás tan contento?"
03:36
Something must be wrong there, yeah? But he's spreading happiness.
57
201000
3000
Algo debe estar errado. Pero el está a desprender felicidade.
03:39
And I think the happiness, the important thing is this happiness
58
204000
2000
E penso que a felicidade, o importante desta felicidade
03:41
does not come from
59
206000
3000
non vén só
03:44
only his own story and his joy of the music.
60
209000
3000
da súa propia historia e o seu desfrute da música.
03:47
The joy is about enabling other people's stories
61
212000
4000
O pracer ten que ver con posibilitar que as historias dos demais
03:51
to be heard at the same time.
62
216000
2000
sexan escoitadas ao mesmo tempo.
03:53
You have the story of the orchestra as a professional body.
63
218000
4000
Tes a historia da orquestra como un equipo profesional.
03:57
You have the story of the audience as a community. Yeah.
64
222000
3000
Tes a historia do auditorio como unha comunidade.
04:00
You have the stories of the individuals
65
225000
2000
Están as historias dos individuos
04:02
in the orchestra and in the audience.
66
227000
2000
na orquestra e no público.
04:04
And then you have other stories, unseen.
67
229000
3000
E logo hai outras historias, non vistas.
04:07
People who build this wonderful concert hall.
68
232000
3000
A xente que construíu esta marabillosa sala de concertos.
04:10
People who made those Stradivarius, Amati, all those beautiful instruments.
69
235000
5000
A xente que fixo eses Stradivarius, Amati, todos eses preciosos instrumentos.
04:15
And all those stories are being heard at the same time.
70
240000
3000
E todas esas historias escóitanse ao mesmo tempo.
04:18
This is the true experience of a live concert.
71
243000
3000
Esta é a verdadeira experiencia dun concerto en directo.
04:21
That's a reason to go out of home. Yeah?
72
246000
2000
Esa é a razón para saír da casa.
04:23
And not all conductors do just that.
73
248000
3000
E non todos os directores fan simplemente iso.
04:26
Let's see somebody else, a great conductor.
74
251000
2000
Vexamos alguén máis, un gran director,
04:28
Riccardo Muti, please.
75
253000
2000
Riccardo Muti, por favor.
04:31
(Music)
76
256000
4000
(Música)
05:07
Yeah, that was very short, but you could see
77
292000
2000
Si, foi moi curto. Pero puidestes ver
05:09
it's a completely different figure. Right?
78
294000
2000
que era un comportamento totalmente diferente. Verdade?
05:11
He's awesome. He's so commanding. Yeah?
79
296000
2000
El é incrible. Tan dominante.
05:13
So clear. Maybe a little bit over-clear.
80
298000
5000
Tan claro. Pode que un pouco claro en exceso.
05:18
Can we have a little demonstration? Would you be my orchestra for a second?
81
303000
3000
Podemos facer unha pequena demostración? Seriades a miña orquestra un segundo?
05:21
Can you sing, please, the first note of Don Giovanni?
82
306000
2000
Podedes cantar, por favor, a primeira nota de Don Giovanni?
05:23
You have to sing "Aaaaaah," and I'll stop you.
83
308000
3000
Tendes que cantar "Aaaaaah" e eu parareivos.
05:26
Okay? Ready?
84
311000
2000
Vale? Listos?
05:28
Audience: ♫ Aaaaaaah ... ♫
85
313000
2000
Público: ♫ Aaaaaaah ... ♫
05:30
Itay Talgam: Come on, with me. If you do it without me
86
315000
2000
Itay Tagam: Vamos, comigo. Se o facedes sen min
05:32
I feel even more redundant than I already feel.
87
317000
3000
síntome incluso máis prescindible do que xa me sinto.
05:35
So please, wait for the conductor.
88
320000
3000
Así que por favor, esperade polo director.
05:38
Now look at me. "Aaaaaah," and I stop you. Let's go.
89
323000
3000
Agora mirádeme. "Aaaaaaah" e vos paro. Imos aló.
05:41
Audience: ♫ ... Aaaaaaaah ... ♫
90
326000
4000
Público: ♫ Aaaaaaah ... ♫
05:45
(Laughter)
91
330000
2000
(Risas)
05:47
Itay Talgam: So we'll have a little chat later.
92
332000
2000
Itay Talgam: Teremos unha pequena conversa despois.
05:49
(Laughter)
93
334000
1000
(Risas)
05:50
But ... There is a vacancy for a ...
94
335000
4000
Pero... hai unha vacante...
05:54
But -- (Laughter)
95
339000
4000
Pero... (risas)
05:58
-- you could see that you could stop an orchestra with a finger.
96
343000
3000
...puidestes ver que podía parar unha orquestra cun dedo.
06:01
Now what does Riccardo Muti do? He does something like this ...
97
346000
2000
Que fai Ricardo Muti? Fai algo como isto...
06:06
(Laughter)
98
351000
1000
(Risas)
06:07
And then -- sort of -- (Laughter)
99
352000
3000
E logo... algo como... (risas)
06:10
So not only the instruction is clear,
100
355000
3000
Así que non só queda clara a orde,
06:13
but also the sanction, what will happen if you don't do what I tell you.
101
358000
3000
senón tamén a sanción, o que ocorrirá se non fas o que eu che digo.
06:16
(Laughter)
102
361000
3000
(Risas)
06:19
So, does it work? Yes, it works --
103
364000
4000
Así, funciona? Si, funciona...
06:23
to a certain point.
104
368000
2000
ata certo punto.
06:25
When Muti is asked, "Why do you conduct like this?"
105
370000
2000
Cando se lle pregunta a Muti, "por que dirixes así?"
06:27
He says, "I'm responsible."
106
372000
2000
El di, "son responsable".
06:29
Responsible in front of him.
107
374000
2000
Responsable fronte a el.
06:31
No he doesn't really mean Him. He means Mozart,
108
376000
2000
E non se refire a El. Quere dicir Mozart,
06:33
which is -- (Laughter) -- like a third seat from the center.
109
378000
4000
que está... (risas) ...como na terceira silla dende o centro.
06:37
(Laughter)
110
382000
1000
(Risas)
06:38
So he says, "If I'm --
111
383000
2000
Así que el di, "se eu son...
06:40
(Applause)
112
385000
2000
(Aplauso)
06:42
if I'm responsible for Mozart,
113
387000
2000
Se eu son responsable ante Mozart.
06:44
this is going to be the only story to be told.
114
389000
2000
esta será a única historia que se conte.
06:46
It's Mozart as I, Riccardo Muti, understand it."
115
391000
4000
É Mozart como eu, Riccardo Muti, o entendo".
06:50
And you know what happened to Muti?
116
395000
2000
E sabedes o que lle ocorreu a Muti?
06:52
Three years ago he got a letter signed by
117
397000
2000
Hai tres anos recibiu unha carta asinada por
06:54
all 700 employees of La Scala,
118
399000
3000
os 700 empregados de La Scala,
06:57
musical employees, I mean the musicians,
119
402000
2000
os empregados musicais, quero dicir os músicos,
06:59
saying, "You're a great conductor. We don't want to work with you. Please resign."
120
404000
4000
dicindo, "es un gran director. Non queremos traballar contigo. Por favor, dimite."
07:03
(Laughter)
121
408000
1000
(Risas)
07:04
"Why? Because you don't let us develop.
122
409000
3000
"Por que? Porque non nos deixas desenvolvernos.
07:07
You're using us as instruments, not as partners.
123
412000
3000
Utilízasnos como instrumentos, non como compañeiros.
07:10
And our joy of music, etc., etc. ..."
124
415000
2000
e o noso desfrute da música, etc. etc. ..."
07:12
So he had to resign. Isn't that nice?
125
417000
2000
Tivo que deixalo. Non é bonito?
07:14
(Laughter)
126
419000
2000
(Risas)
07:16
He's a nice guy. He's a really nice guy.
127
421000
3000
É un bo tipo. De verdade que o é.
07:19
Well, can you do it with less control,
128
424000
3000
Ben, podes facelo con menos control,
07:22
or with a different kind of control?
129
427000
2000
ou cun control diferente?
07:24
Let's look at the next conductor, Richard Strauss.
130
429000
4000
Vexamos ao seguinte director, Richard Strauss.
07:30
(Music)
131
435000
4000
(Música)
07:58
I'm afraid you'll get the feeling that I really picked on him because he's old.
132
463000
4000
Me temo que pensaredes que o escollín porque é maior.
08:02
It's not true. When he was a young man
133
467000
3000
Non é certo. Cando era xoven,
08:05
of about 30, he wrote what he called
134
470000
2000
arredor dos 30, escribiu o que chamou
08:07
"The Ten Commandments for Conductors."
135
472000
2000
"Os Dez Mandamentos dos Directores".
08:09
The first one was: If you sweat by the end of the concert
136
474000
3000
O primeiro era: se ao final do concerto estás a suar
08:12
it means that you must have done something wrong.
137
477000
2000
significa que debes ter feito algo mal.
08:14
That's the first one. The fourth one you'll like better.
138
479000
2000
Ese é o primeiro. O cuarto gustaravos aínda máis.
08:16
It says: Never look at the trombones --
139
481000
2000
Di: nunca mires aos trombóns...
08:18
it only encourages them.
140
483000
2000
non fai máis que esporealos.
08:20
(Laughter)
141
485000
5000
(Risas)
08:25
So, the whole idea is really to let
142
490000
2000
Así que a idea global é deixar
08:27
it happen by itself.
143
492000
2000
que ocorra por si mesmo.
08:29
Do not interfere.
144
494000
2000
Non interferir.
08:31
But how does it happen? Did you see
145
496000
3000
Pero como ocorre? Vistes
08:34
him turning pages in the score?
146
499000
2000
como pasaba as páxinas da partitura?
08:36
Now, either he is senile,
147
501000
2000
Agora, ou está senil,
08:38
and doesn't remember his own music, because he wrote the music.
148
503000
3000
e non lembra a súa propia música, porque él escribiu a música.
08:41
Or he is actually transferring a very strong message to them, saying,
149
506000
3000
Ou realmente está a transmitir unha mensaxe moi forte, dicindo,
08:44
"Come on guys. You have to play by the book.
150
509000
4000
"veña xente. Tendes que tocar seguindo o libro.
08:48
So it's not about my story. It's not about your story.
151
513000
2000
Así que non ten que ver coa miña historia. Non é a vosa historia.
08:50
It's only the execution of the written music,
152
515000
3000
É soamente a execución de música escrita,
08:53
no interpretation."
153
518000
2000
sen interpretación".
08:55
Interpretation is the real story of the performer.
154
520000
3000
A interpretación é a historia real do artista.
08:58
So, no, he doesn't want that. That's a different kind of control.
155
523000
3000
E non, iso non é o que quere. É un tipo diferente de control.
09:01
Let's see another super-conductor,
156
526000
3000
Vexamos a outro super-director,
09:04
a German super-conductor. Herbert von Karajan, please.
157
529000
3000
un super-director alemán, Herbert von Karajan, por favor.
09:07
(Music)
158
532000
4000
(Música)
09:40
What's different? Did you see the eyes? Closed.
159
565000
3000
Cal é a diferencia? Vistes os seus ollos? Pechados.
09:43
Did you see the hands?
160
568000
3000
Vistes as súas mans?
09:46
Did you see this kind of movement? Let me conduct you. Twice.
161
571000
3000
Vistes ese movemento? Deixádeme que vos dirixa. Dúas veces.
09:49
Once like a Muti, and you'll -- (Claps) -- clap, just once.
162
574000
2000
Unha como Muti e vos... (palmada) ...aplaudiredes, só unha vez.
09:51
And then like Karajan. Let's see what happens. Okay?
163
576000
2000
E despois como Karajan. Vexamos o que ocorre, vale?
09:53
Like Muti. You ready? Because Muti ...
164
578000
3000
Como Muti. Estades listos? Porque Muti...
09:56
(Laughter) Okay? Ready? Let's do it.
165
581000
3000
(Risas) Vale? Listos? Fagámolo.
09:59
Audience: (Claps)
166
584000
1000
Público: (Aplausos)
10:00
Itay Talgam: Hmm ... again.
167
585000
2000
Itay Talgam: Hmm... outra vez.
10:02
Audience: (Claps)
168
587000
2000
Público: (Aplausos)
10:04
Itay Talgam: Good. Now like a Karajan. Since you're already trained,
169
589000
2000
Itay Talgam: Ben. Agora como Karajan. Como xa estades entrenados,
10:06
let me concentrate, close my eyes. Come, come.
170
591000
3000
deixádeme concentrar, pecho os ollos. Imos, imos.
10:11
Audience: (Claps) (Laughter)
171
596000
2000
Público: (Aplausos) (Risas)
10:13
Itay Talgam: Why not together? (Laughter)
172
598000
2000
Itay Talgam: Por que non todos xuntos? (Risas)
10:15
Because you didn't know when to play.
173
600000
2000
Porque non sabiades cando tocar.
10:17
Now I can tell you, even the Berlin Philharmonic
174
602000
2000
Agora pódovos dicir, que incluso a Filarmónica de Berlín
10:19
doesn't know when to play.
175
604000
2000
non sabe cando tocar.
10:21
(Laughter)
176
606000
1000
(Risas)
10:22
But I'll tell you how they do it. No cynicism.
177
607000
2000
Pero direivos cando o fan. Sen cinismo.
10:24
This is a German orchestra, yes?
178
609000
2000
É unha orquestra alemana, si?
10:26
They look at Karajan. And then they look at each other.
179
611000
4000
Miran a Karajan. E logo míranse os uns aos outros.
10:30
(Laughter)
180
615000
3000
(Risas)
10:33
"Do you understand what this guy wants?"
181
618000
3000
"Entendes o que quere este tipo?"
10:36
And after doing that,
182
621000
2000
E despois de facer iso,
10:38
they really look at each other, and the first players of the orchestra
183
623000
2000
míranse os uns aos outros e os primeiros músicos da orquestra
10:40
lead the whole ensemble in playing together.
184
625000
3000
lideran ao conxunto para tocar xuntos.
10:43
And when Karajan is asked about it
185
628000
2000
E cando se lle pregunta por isto a Karajan
10:45
he actually says, "Yes, the worst damage
186
630000
2000
O que di é, "si, o peor dano
10:47
I can do to my orchestra
187
632000
2000
que lle podo facer á miña orquestra
10:49
is to give them a clear instruction.
188
634000
4000
é darlles unha orde clara.
10:53
Because that would
189
638000
2000
Porque iso
10:55
prevent the ensemble, the listening to each other
190
640000
4000
evitaría que se escoitasen os uns aos outros en conxunto
10:59
that is needed for an orchestra."
191
644000
2000
como se precisa nunha orquestra".
11:01
Now that's great. What about the eyes?
192
646000
2000
É fantástico. Pero que hai dos ollos?
11:03
Why are the eyes closed?
193
648000
2000
Por que están pechados?
11:05
There is a wonderful story about Karajan conducting in London.
194
650000
4000
Hai unha historia marabillosa de Karajan dirixindo en Londres.
11:09
And he cues in a flute player like this.
195
654000
3000
E sinala a un flautista así.
11:12
The guy has no idea what to do. (Laughter)
196
657000
3000
O tipo non ten idea do que facer. (Risas)
11:15
"Maestro, with all due respect, when should I start?"
197
660000
3000
"Maestro, con todo o debido respeto, cando quere que comece?"
11:18
What do you think Karajan's reply was? When should I start?
198
663000
3000
Cal pensades que foi a resposta de Karajan? Cando teño que empezar?
11:21
Oh yeah. He says, "You start when you can't stand it anymore."
199
666000
4000
Oh si. El di, "comeza cando non o podas aturar máis".
11:25
(Laughter)
200
670000
3000
(Risas)
11:28
Meaning that you know you have no authority to change anything.
201
673000
5000
Querendo dicir que sabes que non tes autoridade para cambiar nada.
11:33
It's my music. The real music is only in Karajan's head.
202
678000
4000
É a miña música. A música real só está na cabeza de Karajan.
11:37
And you have to guess my mind. So you are under tremendous pressure
203
682000
3000
E tes que adiviñar a miña mente. Así que estás baixo unha presión tremenda
11:40
because I don't give you instruction,
204
685000
2000
porque non che dou instruccións,
11:42
and yet, you have to guess my mind.
205
687000
2000
e a pesar diso, tes que adiviñar a miña mente.
11:44
So it's a different kind of, a very spiritual but yet
206
689000
2000
Así que é unha clase de, un control moi espiritual,
11:46
very firm control.
207
691000
3000
pero aínda un control moi firme.
11:49
Can we do it in another way? Of course we can. Let's go back
208
694000
2000
Podemos facelo doutro xeito? Naturalmente que si. Volvamos atrás
11:51
to the first conductor we've seen:
209
696000
2000
ao primeiro director que temos visto:
11:53
Carlos Kleiber, his name. Next video, please.
210
698000
2000
Carlos Kleiber é o seu nome. O seguinte video por favor.
11:57
(Music)
211
702000
4000
(Música)
12:53
(Laughter) Yeah.
212
758000
2000
(Risas)
12:55
Well, it is different. But isn't that controlling in the same way?
213
760000
3000
Ben, é diferente. Pero non é iso controlar do mesmo xeito?
12:58
No, it's not, because he is not telling them what to do.
214
763000
3000
Non, non o é. Porque non lles está a dicir que facer.
13:01
When he does this, it's not,
215
766000
2000
Cando fai isto, non é,
13:03
"Take your Stradivarius and like Jimi Hendrix,
216
768000
3000
"colle o teu Stradivarius e, como Jimi Hendrix,
13:06
smash it on the floor." It's not that.
217
771000
2000
estámpao contra o chan". Non é iso.
13:08
He says, "This is the gesture of the music.
218
773000
2000
El di, "este é o xeito da música.
13:10
I'm opening a space for you
219
775000
2000
Estouvos a abrir o espazo
13:12
to put in another layer
220
777000
2000
para que o poñades noutro nivel
13:14
of interpretation."
221
779000
2000
de interpretación".
13:16
That is another story.
222
781000
2000
Esa é outra historia.
13:18
But how does it really work together
223
783000
2000
Pero como funciona realmente o conxunto
13:20
if it doesn't give them instructions?
224
785000
2000
se el non lles dá instruccións?
13:22
It's like being on a rollercoaster. Yeah?
225
787000
2000
É como estar nunha montaña rusa.
13:24
You're not really given any instructions,
226
789000
2000
Non se che dan instruccións.
13:26
but the forces of the process itself keep you in place.
227
791000
4000
Pero as forzas do proceso mesmo te manteñen no sitio.
13:30
That's what he does.
228
795000
2000
Iso é o que el fai.
13:32
The interesting thing is of course the rollercoaster does not really exist.
229
797000
2000
O interesante é, naturalmente, que a montaña rusa non existe realmente.
13:34
It's not a physical thing. It's in the players' heads.
230
799000
4000
Non é algo físico. Está nas cabezas dos músicos.
13:38
And that's what makes them into partners.
231
803000
3000
E iso é o que os fai socios.
13:41
You have the plan in your head.
232
806000
2000
Tes o plano na túa cabeza.
13:43
You know what to do, even though Kleiber is not conducting you.
233
808000
3000
Sabes o que facer, incluso a pesar de que Kleiber non te está a dirixir.
13:46
But here and there and that. You know what to do.
234
811000
3000
Pero aquí, aló e acolá, sabes o que facer.
13:49
And you become a partner building the rollercoaster,
235
814000
3000
E faste parte dunha sociedade construíndo unha montaña rusa,
13:52
yeah, with sound,
236
817000
2000
si, con son,
13:54
as you actually take the ride.
237
819000
2000
como se foses realmente no carriño.
13:56
This is very exciting for those players.
238
821000
3000
Isto é moi excitante para os músicos.
13:59
They do need to go to a sanatorium for two weeks, later.
239
824000
2000
Despois teñen que ir ao psiquiátrico durante dúas semanas.
14:01
(Laughter)
240
826000
1000
(Risas)
14:02
It is very tiring. Yeah?
241
827000
2000
É esgotador.
14:04
But it's the best music making, like this.
242
829000
4000
Pero é o mellor facendo música, desta maneira.
14:08
But of course it's not only about motivation
243
833000
3000
Pero naturalmente non ten só que ver coa motivación
14:11
and giving them a lot of physical energy.
244
836000
3000
e con darlles unha morea de enerxía física.
14:14
You also have to be very professional.
245
839000
2000
Tamén tes que ser moi profesional.
14:16
And look again at this Kleiber.
246
841000
2000
E mirade de novo isto, Kleiber.
14:18
Can we have the next video, quickly?
247
843000
2000
Podemos ver rapidamente o seguinte video?
14:20
You'll see what happens when there is a mistake.
248
845000
4000
Veredes o que ocorre cando hai un erro.
14:24
(Music) Again you see the beautiful body language.
249
849000
3000
(Música) Outra vez vedes a bonita linguaxe corporal.
14:27
(Music)
250
852000
3000
(Música)
14:33
And now there is a trumpet player who
251
858000
3000
E agora un trompetista
14:36
does something not exactly the way it should be done.
252
861000
2000
fai algo que non é exactamente o que tiña que facer.
14:38
Go along with the video. Look.
253
863000
2000
Continúa o video. Mirade.
14:43
See, second time for the same player.
254
868000
4000
Mirade, segunda vez ao mesmo músico.
14:49
(Laughter) And now the third time for the same player.
255
874000
3000
(Risas) E agora unha terceira vez para o mesmo músico.
14:56
(Laughter)
256
881000
1000
(Risas)
14:57
"Wait for me after the concert.
257
882000
2000
"Espérame despois do concerto.
14:59
I have a short notice to give you."
258
884000
2000
teño un pequeno comunicado que darche".
15:01
You know, when it's needed, the authority is there. It's very important.
259
886000
4000
Sabedes, cando é preciso, a autoridade está aí. É moi importante.
15:05
But authority is not enough to make people your partners.
260
890000
3000
Pero a autoridade non é suficiente para facer da xente os teus socios.
15:08
Let's see the next video, please. See what happens here.
261
893000
2000
Vexamos o seguinte video. Vexamos o que acontece aquí.
15:10
You might be surprised having seen Kleiber
262
895000
2000
Poderiades estar sorprendidos de ter visto a Kleiber
15:12
as such a hyperactive guy.
263
897000
3000
como alguén tan hiperactivo.
15:15
He's conducting Mozart.
264
900000
2000
Está a dirixir Mozart.
15:17
(Music)
265
902000
3000
(Música)
15:20
The whole orchestra is playing.
266
905000
2000
Toda a orquestra está a tocar.
15:22
(Music)
267
907000
2000
(Música)
15:24
Now something else.
268
909000
2000
Agora algo máis.
15:26
(Music)
269
911000
3000
(Música)
15:36
See? He is there 100 percent,
270
921000
4000
Vedes? Está aí ao cento por cento,
15:40
but not commanding, not telling what to do.
271
925000
2000
pero non dominante, sen dicir o que facer.
15:42
Rather enjoying what the soloist is doing.
272
927000
3000
Máis ben desfrutando o que está a facer o solista.
15:45
(Music)
273
930000
3000
(Música)
15:48
Another solo now. See what you can pick up from this.
274
933000
3000
Agora outro solo. Mirade o que se pode sacar disto.
15:51
(Music)
275
936000
3000
(Música)
15:57
Look at the eyes.
276
942000
2000
Mirade os ollos.
16:03
Okay. You see that?
277
948000
2000
Podedes velo?
16:05
First of all, it's a kind of a compliment we all like to get.
278
950000
3000
O primeiro, é como un eloxio que a todos nos gusta recibir.
16:08
It's not feedback. It's an "Mmmm ..." Yeah, it comes from here.
279
953000
3000
Non é feedback. E un "Mmmm..." Si, vén de por aquí.
16:11
So that's a good thing.
280
956000
2000
Así que está ben.
16:13
And the second thing is
281
958000
2000
E a segunda cousa é
16:15
it's about actually being in control,
282
960000
2000
sobre ter realmente o control,
16:17
but in a very special way.
283
962000
2000
pero dun modo moi especial.
16:19
When Kleiber does -- did you see the eyes,
284
964000
3000
Cando Kleiber o fai... vistes os ollos,
16:22
going from here? (Singing)
285
967000
2000
movéndoos dende aquí? (Cantando)
16:24
You know what happens? Gravitation is no more.
286
969000
4000
Sabedes o que ocorre? A gravidade xa non existe.
16:28
Kleiber not only creates a process,
287
973000
2000
Kleiber non só crea un proceso,
16:30
but also creates the conditions in the world
288
975000
3000
senón que crea as condicións no mundo
16:33
in which this process takes place.
289
978000
3000
nas que ese proceso se produce.
16:36
So again, the oboe player
290
981000
2000
Así que, outra vez, o que toca o oboe
16:38
is completely autonomous
291
983000
2000
é completamente autónomo
16:40
and therefore happy and proud of his work,
292
985000
3000
e polo tanto está contento e orgulloso do seu traballo,
16:43
and creative and all of that.
293
988000
2000
e creativo e todo iso.
16:45
And the level in which Kleiber is in control is in a different level.
294
990000
4000
E o nivel no que Kleiber controla está nun escalón diferente.
16:49
So control is no longer a zero-sum game.
295
994000
3000
O control xa non é un xogo de suma cero.
16:52
You have this control. You have this control. And all you put together,
296
997000
2000
Tendes este control. Tendes este control. E todo o que xuntedes
16:54
in partnership, brings about the best music.
297
999000
4000
en colaboración, traerá a mellor música.
16:58
So Kleiber is about process.
298
1003000
2000
Así que Kleiber ten que ver co proceso.
17:00
Kleiber is about conditions in the world.
299
1005000
2000
Kleiber ten que ver coas condicións no mundo.
17:02
But you need to have process and content to create the meaning.
300
1007000
4000
Pero necesitades proceso e contido para crear o significado.
17:06
Lenny Bernstein, my own personal maestro.
301
1011000
2000
Lenny Bernstein, o meu maestro
17:08
Since he was a great teacher,
302
1013000
3000
xa que era un gran profesor,
17:11
Lenny Bernstein always started from the meaning. Look at this, please.
303
1016000
6000
Lenny Bernstein sempre comezaba polo sentido. Mirade isto por favor.
17:17
(Music)
304
1022000
4000
(Música)
18:16
Do you remember the face of Muti, at the beginning?
305
1081000
2000
Recordades a cara de Muti, ao principio?
18:18
Well he had a wonderful expression, but only one.
306
1083000
3000
Bon, tiña unha expresión marabillosa, pero unha soa.
18:21
(Laughter)
307
1086000
1000
(Risas)
18:22
Did you see Lenny's face?
308
1087000
2000
Vistes a cara de Lenny?
18:24
You know why? Because the meaning of the music is pain.
309
1089000
4000
Sabedes por que? Porque o sentido de melodía era a dor.
18:28
And you're playing a painful sound.
310
1093000
2000
E estás a interpretar un son doloroso.
18:30
And you look at Lenny and he's suffering.
311
1095000
3000
E miras a Lenny e está a sufrir.
18:33
But not in a way that you want to stop.
312
1098000
2000
Pero non ese sufrimento que queres deter.
18:35
It's suffering, like, enjoying himself in a Jewish way, as they say.
313
1100000
4000
É sufrimento como... desfrutando ao estilo xudeu, como eles din.
18:39
(Laughter)
314
1104000
4000
(Risas)
18:43
But you can see the music on his face.
315
1108000
3000
Pero podes ver a música na súa cara.
18:46
You can see the baton left his hand. No more baton.
316
1111000
3000
Podes ver que a batuta abandonou a súa man. Non máis batuta.
18:49
Now it's about you, the player,
317
1114000
2000
Ahora tócavos a vós, os músicos,
18:51
telling the story.
318
1116000
2000
contar a historia.
18:53
Now it's a reversed thing. You're telling the story. And you're telling the story.
319
1118000
2000
Agora deuse a volta ás cousas. Vós contades a historia. E vós contades a historia.
18:55
And even briefly, you become the storyteller
320
1120000
3000
En suma, convertídesvos en contadores de historias
18:58
to which the community, the whole community, listens to.
321
1123000
3000
aos que a comunidade, toda a comunidade, escoita.
19:01
And Bernstein enables that. Isn't that wonderful?
322
1126000
4000
E Bernstein posibilita iso. Non é marabilloso?
19:05
Now, if you are doing all the things we talked about, together,
323
1130000
4000
Agora, se estades a facer todo do que falamos, todos xuntos,
19:09
and maybe some others,
324
1134000
2000
e pode que algúns outros,
19:11
you can get to this wonderful point of doing without doing.
325
1136000
3000
podedes chegar ao marabilloso extremo de facer sen facer.
19:14
And for the last video, I think this is simply the best title.
326
1139000
5000
E como último video, penso que este é o mellor título.
19:19
My friend Peter says,
327
1144000
2000
O meu amigo Peter di,
19:21
"If you love something, give it away." So, please.
328
1146000
4000
"se amas algo, déixao ir". Así que, por favor.
19:25
(Music)
329
1150000
4000
(Música)
20:29
(Applause)
330
1214000
17000
(Aplausos)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Itay Talgam - Conductor and leadership expertAfter a decade-long conducting career in his native Israel, Itay Talgam has reinvented himself as a "conductor of people" -- in government, academia, business and education. He is the author of The Ignorant Maestro.
Why you should listen
Itay Talgam finds metaphors for organizational behavior -- and models for inspired leadership -- within the workings of the symphony orchestra. Imagining music as a model for all spheres of human creativity, from the classroom to the boardroom, Talgam created the Maestro Leadership Program.
Talgam's workshops aim to help everyday people develop a musician's sense of collaboration, and a conductor's sense of leadership: that inner sense of being intuitively, even subconsciously, connected to your fellow players, giving what they need and getting what you need. It's this art of listening and reacting in the moment that makes for a swinging jazz combo, a sublime string quartet, a brilliant orchestra -- and great teams at work.
Before he conducted people, Talgam conducted music, including numerous orchestras in Europe. He was the first Israeli conductor to perform with the St. Petersburg Philharmonic Orchestra and the Leipzig Opera house. His book, The Ignorant Maestro, was published in 2015.
Itay Talgam | Speaker | TED.com