TED@BCG London
Sandrine Thuret: You can grow new brain cells. Here's how
桑德琳·苏瑞: 这么做，你就能长出新的脑细胞
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我们作为成人，还能生长出新的脑细胞吗？脑神经科学家桑德琳·苏瑞说我们的可以。她提供了研究和实践中的建议，指导我们如何帮助自己的大脑更好地生长神经——提升心情、提高记忆的形成，以及阻止随着年龄增长而出现的下降情况。
Sandrine Thuret - Neural stem cell researcher
Sandrine Thuret studies the way adult brains create new nerve cells in the hippocampus -- a brain area involved in memory and mood. Full bio
Sandrine Thuret studies the way adult brains create new nerve cells in the hippocampus -- a brain area involved in memory and mood. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:13
Can we, as adults, grow new nerve cells?
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我们，作为成人，还能生长
新的神经细胞吗？
新的神经细胞吗？
00:19
There's still some confusion
about that question,
about that question,
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这个问题还未完全清晰，
00:22
as this is a fairly new field of research.
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因为这还是新的研究领域。
00:25
For example, I was talking
to one of my colleagues, Robert,
to one of my colleagues, Robert,
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比方说，我跟我的同事罗伯特说，
00:28
who is an oncologist,
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罗伯特是一名肿瘤学家，
00:30
and he was telling me,
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他告诉我，
00:32
"Sandrine, this is puzzling.
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“桑德琳，这很令人疑惑。
00:33
Some of my patients that have been told
they are cured of their cancer
they are cured of their cancer
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我的一些病人，即使被告知
他们的癌症已治愈，
他们的癌症已治愈，
00:38
still develop symptoms of depression."
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仍有抑郁的症状。”
00:41
And I responded to him,
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我回答道，
00:42
"Well, from my point of view
that makes sense.
that makes sense.
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“嗯，在我看来这是可以解释的。
00:45
The drug you give to your patients
that stops the cancer cells multiplying
that stops the cancer cells multiplying
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你给病人开的，
用以阻止癌细胞增生的药
用以阻止癌细胞增生的药
00:49
also stops the newborn neurons
being generated in their brain."
being generated in their brain."
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同时也阻止了他们大脑中
生长出新的神经元。”
生长出新的神经元。”
00:55
And then Robert looked at me
like I was crazy and said,
like I was crazy and said,
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罗伯特看着我，仿佛我疯了似的，
00:58
"But Sandrine, these are adult patients --
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“但是桑德琳，他们是成年的病人--
01:00
adults do not grow new nerve cells."
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成人不会生长新的神经细胞。”
01:04
And much to his surprise, I said,
"Well actually, we do."
"Well actually, we do."
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非常惊讶，我说，
“事实上，我们可以。”
“事实上，我们可以。”
01:09
And this is a phenomenon
that we call neurogenesis.
that we call neurogenesis.
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这个现象我们称之为
神经生成。
神经生成。
01:13
[Neurogenesis]
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[神经生成]
01:15
Now Robert is not a neuroscientist,
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罗伯特不是一名脑神经科学家，
01:18
and when he went to medical school
he was not taught what we know now --
he was not taught what we know now --
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当他在医学院上学的时候
并没有学到我们现在所知道的
并没有学到我们现在所知道的
01:23
that the adult brain
can generate new nerve cells.
can generate new nerve cells.
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成人大脑能够生成新的神经细胞。
01:29
So Robert, you know,
being the good doctor that he is,
being the good doctor that he is,
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因此罗伯特，
作为一名好医生，
作为一名好医生，
01:33
wanted to come to my lab
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想要到我的实验室来
01:35
to understand the topic
a little bit better.
a little bit better.
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更深层的了解一下这个研究。
01:38
And I took him for a tour
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我向他展示了
01:41
of one of the most exciting
parts of the brain
parts of the brain
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大脑最令人兴奋的部分
01:44
when it comes to neurogenesis --
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有关神经生成的活动--
01:46
and this is the hippocampus.
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这是海马体。
01:49
So this is this gray structure
in the center of the brain.
in the center of the brain.
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就是大脑中心这个灰色的结构。
01:53
And what we've known already
for very long,
for very long,
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我们早已得知，
01:56
is that this is important for learning,
memory, mood and emotion.
memory, mood and emotion.
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这对学习，记忆，情绪和情感
很重要。
很重要。
02:01
However, what we
have learned more recently
have learned more recently
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然而，我们进来新研究出的是
02:04
is that this is one of the unique
structures of the adult brain
structures of the adult brain
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这是一个对成人大脑来说
很特别的结构，
很特别的结构，
02:09
where new neurons can be generated.
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这里能够生成新的神经元。
02:12
And if we slice through the hippocampus
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当我们切开海马体
02:14
and zoom in,
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并放大，
02:16
what you actually see here in blue
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你所看到的这些蓝色物质
02:18
is a newborn neuron
in an adult mouse brain.
in an adult mouse brain.
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就是成年老鼠大脑中
新生张出来的神经元。
新生张出来的神经元。
02:24
So when it comes to the human brain --
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在人类大脑中--
02:27
my colleague Jonas Frisén
from the Karolinska Institutet,
from the Karolinska Institutet,
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我来自卡罗林斯卡学院的同事
Jonas Frisén说，
Jonas Frisén说，
02:31
has estimated that we produce
700 new neurons per day
700 new neurons per day
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人类每天生长约700个新的神经元
02:37
in the hippocampus.
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在海马体内。
02:39
You might think this is not much,
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你可能认为这并不是很多，
02:40
compared to the billions
of neurons we have.
of neurons we have.
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因为人体有数十亿神经元。
02:43
But by the time we turn 50,
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但是当我们快到50岁的时候，
02:46
we will have all exchanged the neurons
we were born with in that structure
we were born with in that structure
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我们出生时所有的神经元
都会变成那个结构中
都会变成那个结构中
02:51
with adult-born neurons.
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成人时期生长出的神经元。
02:55
So why are these new neurons important
and what are their functions?
and what are their functions?
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为什么新的神经元是重要的
它们有怎样的作用呢？
它们有怎样的作用呢？
03:01
First, we know that they're important
for learning and memory.
for learning and memory.
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首先，我们指导它们对于
学习和记忆功能来说很重要。
学习和记忆功能来说很重要。
03:05
And in the lab we have shown
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在实验室中，我们发现
03:06
that if we block the ability
of the adult brain
of the adult brain
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如果我们阻止了成人大脑中
03:09
to produce new neurons in the hippocampus,
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海马体生长新的神经元的功能，
03:12
then we block certain memory abilities.
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那意味着我们也阻止了
某些记忆能力。
某些记忆能力。
03:15
And this is especially new and true
for spatial recognition --
for spatial recognition --
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这对空间识别感
非常重要--
非常重要--
03:22
so like, how you navigate
your way in the city.
your way in the city.
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就像，你如何在城市中活动。
03:26
We are still learning a lot,
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我们仍在学习，
03:27
and neurons are not only important
for memory capacity,
for memory capacity,
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神经元对于记忆能力，
03:30
but also for the quality of the memory.
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以及记忆的质量来说
非常重要。
非常重要。
03:33
And they will have been helpful
to add time to our memory
to add time to our memory
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他们能够帮助我们的记忆
加入时间概念
加入时间概念
03:37
and they will help differentiate
very similar memories, like:
very similar memories, like:
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他们也会帮助我们区分
非常相近的记忆，比如：
非常相近的记忆，比如：
03:42
how do you find your bike
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如何寻找你的自行车
03:44
that you park at the station
every day in the same area,
every day in the same area,
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你每天都将它停在
车站附近的同一块地方，
车站附近的同一块地方，
03:48
but in a slightly different position?
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但是在这片地不同的位置？
03:52
And more interesting
to my colleague Robert
to my colleague Robert
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对我的同事罗伯特来说
更有意思的是
更有意思的是
03:54
is the research we have been doing
on neurogenesis and depression.
on neurogenesis and depression.
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我们正在做有关神经生成
和抑郁的研究。
和抑郁的研究。
04:00
So in an animal model of depression,
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在这个关于抑郁的动物模型，
04:01
we have seen that we have
a lower level of neurogenesis.
a lower level of neurogenesis.
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我们可以看到
它的神经生成在较低的水平，
它的神经生成在较低的水平，
04:06
And if we give antidepressants,
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如果给牠们服用抗抑郁剂，
04:08
then we increase the production
of these newborn neurons,
of these newborn neurons,
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我们增加了新生的神经元，
04:12
and we decrease
the symptoms of depression,
the symptoms of depression,
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于是抑郁的症状就减轻了，
04:15
establishing a clear link
between neurogenesis and depression.
between neurogenesis and depression.
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在细胞生成和抑郁症状间
建立了清晰地联系。
建立了清晰地联系。
04:21
But moreover, if you
just block neurogenesis,
just block neurogenesis,
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此外，如果你阻止了细胞生成，
04:25
then you block the efficacy
of the antidepressant.
of the antidepressant.
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那你也就阻止了抗抑郁剂的功效。
04:29
So by then, Robert had understood
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那时，罗伯特理解到
04:31
that very likely his patients
were suffering from depression
were suffering from depression
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他的病人们很有可能会
遭受抑郁的症状
遭受抑郁的症状
04:35
even after being cured of their cancer,
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即使在癌症治愈以后，
04:37
because the cancer drug had stopped
newborn neurons from being generated.
newborn neurons from being generated.
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因为抗癌药物阻止了
身体新的神经元的生成。
身体新的神经元的生成。
04:42
And it will take time
to generate new neurons
to generate new neurons
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那需要一些时间
生成新的神经元
生成新的神经元
04:45
that reach normal functions.
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让它达到正常的运作。
04:49
So, collectively, now we think
we have enough evidence
we have enough evidence
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总的来说，
我想我们有足够的证据
我想我们有足够的证据
04:54
to say that neurogenesis
is a target of choice
is a target of choice
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来表明细胞生成是一个目标方法，
04:57
if we want to improve
memory formation or mood,
memory formation or mood,
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如果我们想要提高记忆力
或是提高情绪，
或是提高情绪，
05:01
or even prevent the decline
associated with aging,
associated with aging,
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或是防止衰老，
05:05
or associated with stress.
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或是抗击压力。
05:08
So the next question is:
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下一个问题就是：
05:10
can we control neurogenesis?
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我们能够控制神经生成吗？
05:13
The answer is yes.
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答案是，是。
05:14
And we are now going to do a little quiz.
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我们现在进行一个小问答。
05:18
I'm going to give you a set
of behaviors and activities,
of behaviors and activities,
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我会给你们一组行为或是活动，
05:21
and you tell me if you think
they will increase neurogenesis
they will increase neurogenesis
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你们来判断
这些能否促进细胞新生
这些能否促进细胞新生
05:26
or if they will decrease neurogenesis.
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或是这些会降低细胞生成。
05:28
Are we ready?
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准备好了吗？
05:30
OK, let's go.
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现在开始。
05:32
So what about learning?
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学习？
05:34
Increasing?
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增长？
05:35
Yes.
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是的。
05:36
Learning will increase the production
of these new neurons.
of these new neurons.
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学习能够提高神经细胞的生成。
05:40
How about stress?
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压力？
05:43
Yes, stress will decrease the production
of new neurons in the hippocampus.
of new neurons in the hippocampus.
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是的，压力会降低海马体内
神经细胞的生成。
神经细胞的生成。
05:48
How about sleep deprivation?
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那么睡眠匮乏呢？
05:51
Indeed, it will decrease neurogenesis.
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确实，它会降低神经生成。
05:54
How about sex?
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性爱呢？
05:56
Oh, wow!
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哇！
05:57
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
05:58
Yes, you are right, it will increase
the production of new neurons.
the production of new neurons.
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是，你们是对的，它能促进
神经新生。
神经新生。
06:02
However, it's all about balance here.
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然而，这一切都有关平衡。
06:04
We don't want to fall in a situation --
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我们不希望出现这样的情况--
06:07
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
06:09
about too much sex
leading to sleep deprivation.
leading to sleep deprivation.
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太多的性爱导致睡眠匮乏。
06:11
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
06:14
How about getting older?
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年龄增长？
06:19
So the neurogenesis rate
will decrease as we get older,
will decrease as we get older,
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细胞生成率会随着我们变老而降低，
06:23
but it is still occurring.
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但它仍会生成。
06:26
And then finally, how about running?
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最后，跑步？
06:29
I will let you judge that one by yourself.
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这要看你们各自的情况自己决定。
06:33
So this is one of the first studies
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这是第一个研究
06:35
that was carried out by one of my mentors,
Rusty Gage from the Salk Institute,
Rusty Gage from the Salk Institute,
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是我在索尔克研究所的导师
Rusty Gage做的，
Rusty Gage做的，
06:39
showing that the environment
can have an impact
can have an impact
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显示出环境对于
06:42
on the production of new neurons.
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生长新的神经有影响。
06:44
And here you see a section
of the hippocampus of a mouse
of the hippocampus of a mouse
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这幅图片是老鼠的海马体，
06:48
that had no running wheel in its cage.
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它的笼子里没有滚动跑轮。
06:50
And the little black dots you see
are actually newborn neurons-to-be.
are actually newborn neurons-to-be.
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黑色的小点点
是将要新生的神经元。
是将要新生的神经元。
06:55
And now, you see a section
of the hippocampus of a mouse
of the hippocampus of a mouse
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现在，这幅是老鼠的海马体
07:00
that had a running wheel in its cage.
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它的笼子里有滚动跑轮。
07:03
So you see the massive increase
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你可以看到数量巨大的
07:04
of the black dots representing
the new neurons-to-be.
the new neurons-to-be.
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黑色小点点显示出
它的神经元生成状况。
它的神经元生成状况。
07:08
So activity impacts neurogenesis,
but that's not all.
but that's not all.
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所以，活动会影响神经生成，
但并不只是如此。
但并不只是如此。
07:13
What you eat will have an effect
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你吃的东西会影响到
07:16
on the production of new neurons
in the hippocampus.
in the hippocampus.
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海马体生长新的神经元。
07:19
So here we have a sample of diet --
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这里我们有一个健康饮食的样本--
07:22
of nutrients that have been shown
to have efficacy.
to have efficacy.
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这些有功效的营养物质。
07:25
And I'm just going
to point a few out to you:
to point a few out to you:
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我要指出一些来：
07:28
Calorie restriction of 20 to 30 percent
will increase neurogenesis.
will increase neurogenesis.
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卡路里保持在20%-30%
会增强细胞生长。
会增强细胞生长。
07:34
Intermittent fasting --
spacing the time between your meals --
spacing the time between your meals --
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间歇地断食--
在餐与餐之间空下时间--
在餐与餐之间空下时间--
07:37
will increase neurogenesis.
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会提高神经细胞新生。
07:39
Intake of flavonoids,
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摄入黄酮类物质，
07:41
which are contained
in dark chocolate or blueberries,
in dark chocolate or blueberries,
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在黑巧克力或蓝莓中，
07:44
will increase neurogenesis.
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会提高神经细胞新生。
07:46
Omega-3 fatty acids,
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欧米伽-3 脂肪酸，
07:47
present in fatty fish, like salmon,
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在脂质鱼中，比如三文鱼，
07:50
will increase the production
of these new neurons.
of these new neurons.
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会提高神经细胞新生率。
07:53
Conversely, a diet rich
in high saturated fat
in high saturated fat
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相对的，那些高饱和脂肪
07:57
will have a negative impact
on neurogenesis.
on neurogenesis.
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会对神经生成有不好的影响。
08:01
Ethanol -- intake of alcohol --
will decrease neurogenesis.
will decrease neurogenesis.
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乙醇--酒精中摄取--
会降低神经新生。
会降低神经新生。
08:05
However, not everything is lost;
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然而，并不是所有都不好，
08:08
resveratrol, which is
contained in red wine,
contained in red wine,
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白藜芦醇，红酒中的物质，
08:11
has been shown to promote
the survival of these new neurons.
the survival of these new neurons.
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就能够促进新生神经的存活率。
08:15
So next time you are at a dinner party,
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下次你再去晚宴派对的时候，
08:17
you might want to reach for this possibly
"neurogenesis-neutral" drink.
"neurogenesis-neutral" drink.
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你也许想要喝这种
可能“神经新生——中立”饮品。
可能“神经新生——中立”饮品。
08:21
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
08:24
And then finally,
let me point out the last one --
let me point out the last one --
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最后，
让我在说最后一点——
让我在说最后一点——
08:26
a quirky one.
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古怪的一点
08:27
So Japanese groups are fascinated
with food textures,
with food textures,
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日本人着迷于食物的质感，
08:31
and they have shown that actually
soft diet impairs neurogenesis,
soft diet impairs neurogenesis,
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软质饮食减少神经生成，
08:37
as opposed to food that requires
mastication -- chewing -- or crunchy food.
mastication -- chewing -- or crunchy food.
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相对于那些需要咀嚼，或是脆的食物。
08:42
So all of this data,
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这些数据，
08:44
where we need to look
at the cellular level,
at the cellular level,
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我们用于观察细胞水平的，
08:47
has been generated using animal models.
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都是通过动物模型完成。
08:50
But this diet has also been given
to human participants,
to human participants,
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但这样的饮食同样也给与了人类参与者，
08:54
and what we could see is that
the diet modulates memory and mood
the diet modulates memory and mood
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我们能看到的是
饮食调节记忆和情绪
饮食调节记忆和情绪
09:01
in the same direction
as it modulates neurogenesis,
as it modulates neurogenesis,
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和它调节神经生成同样的方向，
09:04
such as: calorie restriction
will improve memory capacity,
will improve memory capacity,
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比如：卡路里限制会
提高记忆能力，
提高记忆能力，
09:09
whereas a high-fat diet will exacerbate
symptoms of depression --
symptoms of depression --
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反之，一个高脂肪的饮食会
加剧抑郁的症状。
加剧抑郁的症状。
09:14
as opposed to omega-3 fatty acids,
which increase neurogenesis,
which increase neurogenesis,
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相反的，欧米伽-3脂肪酸，
会提高神经生成，
会提高神经生成，
09:18
and also help to decrease
the symptoms of depression.
the symptoms of depression.
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同时也会帮助减缓
抑郁的症状。
抑郁的症状。
09:23
So we think that the effect of diet
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因此我们认为饮食的效用
09:28
on mental health, on memory and mood,
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在神经健康、记忆和情绪，
09:32
is actually mediated by the production
of the new neurons in the hippocampus.
of the new neurons in the hippocampus.
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是通过在海马体内
制造新的神经元间接完成的。
制造新的神经元间接完成的。
09:36
And it's not only what you eat,
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不只是你吃什么，
09:38
but it's also the texture
of the food, when you eat it
of the food, when you eat it
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还有食物的质地，
什么时候吃
什么时候吃
09:42
and how much of it you eat.
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吃了多少来决定。
09:45
On our side -- neuroscientists
interested in neurogenesis --
interested in neurogenesis --
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在我们神经科学家这边--
有兴趣的神经生成--
有兴趣的神经生成--
09:49
we need to understand better
the function of these new neurons,
the function of these new neurons,
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我们需要更好的了解
这些新生神经的功能，
这些新生神经的功能，
09:53
and how we can control their survival
and their production.
and their production.
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以及我们如何控制
它们的存活率和制造情况。
它们的存活率和制造情况。
09:57
We also need to find a way to protect
the neurogenesis of Robert's patients.
the neurogenesis of Robert's patients.
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我们同样也要寻找一个方法
来保护罗伯特病人的神经生成。
来保护罗伯特病人的神经生成。
10:03
And on your side --
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在你们这边--
10:04
I leave you in charge
of your neurogenesis.
of your neurogenesis.
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请你们自己决定自己的细胞生成。
10:07
Thank you.
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谢谢
10:08
(Applause)
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（鼓掌）
10:14
Margaret Heffernan:
Fantastic research, Sandrine.
Fantastic research, Sandrine.
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玛格丽特·赫夫南：
太精彩的研究，桑德琳。
太精彩的研究，桑德琳。
10:17
Now, I told you you changed my life --
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现在，我告诉你你改变了我的生活--
10:19
I now eat a lot of blueberries.
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我现在开始吃大量的蓝莓。
10:21
Sandrine Thuret: Very good.
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桑德琳·苏瑞：这太好了。
10:23
MH: I'm really interested
in the running thing.
in the running thing.
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玛格丽特：我很好奇
关于跑步的那个讨论。
关于跑步的那个讨论。
10:26
Do I have to run?
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我需要跑步吗？
10:29
Or is it really just
about aerobic exercise,
about aerobic exercise,
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还是指我们要做有氧运动，
10:32
getting oxygen to the brain?
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让大脑吸氧？
10:33
Could it be any kind of vigorous exercise?
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可以是任何激烈运动吗？
10:36
ST: So for the moment,
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桑德琳：此时此刻，
10:37
we can't really say
if it's just the running itself,
if it's just the running itself,
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我们无法准确说明
是否只能跑步，
是否只能跑步，
10:41
but we think that anything that indeed
will increase the production --
will increase the production --
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但我想任何事
能够提高生成--
能够提高生成--
10:46
or moving the blood flow to the brain,
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或是血液移动到大脑的，
10:49
should be beneficial.
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应该都是有益的。
10:51
MH: So I don't have to get
a running wheel in my office?
a running wheel in my office?
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玛格丽特：
那我不需要在我的办公室放一个转轮了？
那我不需要在我的办公室放一个转轮了？
10:54
ST: No, you don't!
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桑德琳：不，你不需要！
10:55
MH: Oh, what a relief! That's wonderful.
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玛格丽特：真是松了口气！太精彩了。
10:57
Sandrine Thuret, thank you so much.
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桑德琳·苏瑞，非常感谢你。
10:59
ST: Thank you, Margaret.
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桑德琳：谢谢你，玛格丽特。
11:00
(Applause)
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（鼓掌）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Sandrine Thuret - Neural stem cell researcherSandrine Thuret studies the way adult brains create new nerve cells in the hippocampus -- a brain area involved in memory and mood.
Why you should listen
In her lab at King's College London, Sandrine Thuret studies adult neurogenesis -- the process by which adult brains create new nerve cells. (Until the 1990s, we didn't even know they did this!)
Thuret's work focuses on the hippocampus, the area of the brain that is related to memory, and her work asks two big questions: How can we help our healthy brains create new nerve cells throughout our lives, through diet and behavior changes? And how can we study the effects of diseases such as depression and Alzheimer's on our brains' ability to grow?
Sandrine Thuret | Speaker | TED.com