TED@BCG London
Sandrine Thuret: You can grow new brain cells. Here's how
珊德琳．休瑞德: 你也可以長出新的腦細胞，方法在這裏
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成人可否長出新的神經細胞？珊德琳．休瑞德 是一位神經學家，她認為成人是可以的。她提出有關的研究和實用的建議，告訴我們怎樣做才可以讓腦部神經再生。其效果可以舒緩情緖、增加記憶容量，和預防因衰老而產生的腦退化。
Sandrine Thuret - Neural stem cell researcher
Sandrine Thuret studies the way adult brains create new nerve cells in the hippocampus -- a brain area involved in memory and mood. Full bio
Sandrine Thuret studies the way adult brains create new nerve cells in the hippocampus -- a brain area involved in memory and mood. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:13
Can we, as adults, grow new nerve cells?
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我們成人可否長出新的神經細胞？
00:19
There's still some confusion
about that question,
about that question,
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有些人對這個問題感到疑惑，
00:22
as this is a fairly new field of research.
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畢竟這是較新的研究領域。
00:25
For example, I was talking
to one of my colleagues, Robert,
to one of my colleagues, Robert,
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例如我曾經跟同事Robert聊過，
00:28
who is an oncologist,
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他是腫瘤專家，
00:30
and he was telling me,
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他對我説，
00:32
"Sandrine, this is puzzling.
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Sandrine，我真是不明白
00:33
Some of my patients that have been told
they are cured of their cancer
they are cured of their cancer
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我明明跟病人講，
他們的癌症已經痊癒，
他們的癌症已經痊癒，
00:38
still develop symptoms of depression."
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他們卻出現了抑鬱症。
00:41
And I responded to him,
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我回答說，
00:42
"Well, from my point of view
that makes sense.
that makes sense.
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對我而言，這容易理解。
00:45
The drug you give to your patients
that stops the cancer cells multiplying
that stops the cancer cells multiplying
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因為你給病人開的藥
阻止了癌細胞繁殖，
阻止了癌細胞繁殖，
00:49
also stops the newborn neurons
being generated in their brain."
being generated in their brain."
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也同時阻礙了他們的腦部
生長新的神經細胞。
生長新的神經細胞。
00:55
And then Robert looked at me
like I was crazy and said,
like I was crazy and said,
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接著Robert望向我，
好像我神經錯亂，他説，
好像我神經錯亂，他説，
00:58
"But Sandrine, these are adult patients --
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可是Sandrine，
這些患者都是成年人，
這些患者都是成年人，
01:00
adults do not grow new nerve cells."
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成年人是不會長新神經細胞的。
01:04
And much to his surprise, I said,
"Well actually, we do."
"Well actually, we do."
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出乎他意料之外，
我說，其實可以的。
我說，其實可以的。
01:09
And this is a phenomenon
that we call neurogenesis.
that we call neurogenesis.
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我們稱這種現象是神經再生。
01:13
[Neurogenesis]
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［神經再生］
01:15
Now Robert is not a neuroscientist,
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因為Robert不是神經學家
01:18
and when he went to medical school
he was not taught what we know now --
he was not taught what we know now --
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以前他讀醫學院時，並沒有
學過我們今天認識的現象，
學過我們今天認識的現象，
01:23
that the adult brain
can generate new nerve cells.
can generate new nerve cells.
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成人腦部是可以生長新神經細胞的。
01:29
So Robert, you know,
being the good doctor that he is,
being the good doctor that he is,
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Robert是一位好醫生，
01:33
wanted to come to my lab
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他要來我的實驗室，
01:35
to understand the topic
a little bit better.
a little bit better.
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想多了解這個議題。
01:38
And I took him for a tour
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於是我向他介紹
01:41
of one of the most exciting
parts of the brain
parts of the brain
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腦部最令人興奮之處，
01:44
when it comes to neurogenesis --
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就是它有神經再生能力--
01:46
and this is the hippocampus.
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這是海馬體
01:49
So this is this gray structure
in the center of the brain.
in the center of the brain.
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這是灰質，位於腦部的中央。
01:53
And what we've known already
for very long,
for very long,
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我們很早已經知道
01:56
is that this is important for learning,
memory, mood and emotion.
memory, mood and emotion.
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這些部分對於學習、記憶、
心情、和情感尤其重要。
心情、和情感尤其重要。
02:01
However, what we
have learned more recently
have learned more recently
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但是直到最近我們才知曉
02:04
is that this is one of the unique
structures of the adult brain
structures of the adult brain
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這是成人腦部之中
一個特別的組織
一個特別的組織
02:09
where new neurons can be generated.
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可以產生新的神經細胞。
02:12
And if we slice through the hippocampus
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如果我們切開海馬體
02:14
and zoom in,
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然後用鏡頭放大看裡面的東西，
02:16
what you actually see here in blue
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便可以見到這個藍色的地方
02:18
is a newborn neuron
in an adult mouse brain.
in an adult mouse brain.
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它是成年老鼠腦部的新生神經。
02:24
So when it comes to the human brain --
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說到人類的腦部--
02:27
my colleague Jonas Frisén
from the Karolinska Institutet,
from the Karolinska Institutet,
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我的同事Jonas Frisen 來自
Karolinska研究所，
Karolinska研究所，
02:31
has estimated that we produce
700 new neurons per day
700 new neurons per day
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據其估計，我們的海馬體
02:37
in the hippocampus.
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每天有700個新生的神經。
02:39
You might think this is not much,
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你可能會覺得跟人體內
02:40
compared to the billions
of neurons we have.
of neurons we have.
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數十億的神經相比，
這實在是微不足道。
這實在是微不足道。
02:43
But by the time we turn 50,
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可是，在我們到達50歲前，
02:46
we will have all exchanged the neurons
we were born with in that structure
we were born with in that structure
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海馬體內的天生神經
02:51
with adult-born neurons.
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將會因此全由成年再生的
神經替換掉。
神經替換掉。
02:55
So why are these new neurons important
and what are their functions?
and what are their functions?
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為什麼這些新神經那麼重要，其功能為何？
03:01
First, we know that they're important
for learning and memory.
for learning and memory.
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首先，我們知道這些神經
對學習和記憶很重要。
對學習和記憶很重要。
03:05
And in the lab we have shown
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我們做了實驗證明
03:06
that if we block the ability
of the adult brain
of the adult brain
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如果我們阻止成年腦部
03:09
to produce new neurons in the hippocampus,
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在海馬體製造新神經，
03:12
then we block certain memory abilities.
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則同時我們也阻礙了
某些記憶能力的發展。
某些記憶能力的發展。
03:15
And this is especially new and true
for spatial recognition --
for spatial recognition --
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特別是有關空間認知的最新發現更是如此，
03:22
so like, how you navigate
your way in the city.
your way in the city.
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這說明你為何可以在城裏認路。
03:26
We are still learning a lot,
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我們不停地學習，
03:27
and neurons are not only important
for memory capacity,
for memory capacity,
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神經不單影響記憶容量，
03:30
but also for the quality of the memory.
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也影響記憶品質。
03:33
And they will have been helpful
to add time to our memory
to add time to our memory
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這些細胞將會延長我們的記憶，
03:37
and they will help differentiate
very similar memories, like:
very similar memories, like:
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也會協助我們從類似記憶中，
分辨出細微的差異：
分辨出細微的差異：
03:42
how do you find your bike
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例如你每天出入同一個車站，
03:44
that you park at the station
every day in the same area,
every day in the same area,
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腳踏車停在同一塊區域，
你怎麼找得到
你怎麼找得到
03:48
but in a slightly different position?
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自己今天停放的不同位置？
03:52
And more interesting
to my colleague Robert
to my colleague Robert
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我的同事Robert一直對我們進行的
03:54
is the research we have been doing
on neurogenesis and depression.
on neurogenesis and depression.
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神經再生和抑鬱症研究感興趣。
04:00
So in an animal model of depression,
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在抑鬱症的動物模型中，
04:01
we have seen that we have
a lower level of neurogenesis.
a lower level of neurogenesis.
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我們見到動物的神經再生量較低。
04:06
And if we give antidepressants,
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但是如果我們給予抗抑鬱藥，
04:08
then we increase the production
of these newborn neurons,
of these newborn neurons,
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便會增加其新生神經的數量，
04:12
and we decrease
the symptoms of depression,
the symptoms of depression,
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並減少抑鬱症狀。
04:15
establishing a clear link
between neurogenesis and depression.
between neurogenesis and depression.
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這證明神經再生跟抑鬱症
有明顯的關係。
有明顯的關係。
04:21
But moreover, if you
just block neurogenesis,
just block neurogenesis,
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還有，若你阻止神經再生，
04:25
then you block the efficacy
of the antidepressant.
of the antidepressant.
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則你也阻止抗抑鬱藥發揮效用。
04:29
So by then, Robert had understood
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因此，Robert開始明白，
04:31
that very likely his patients
were suffering from depression
were suffering from depression
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他的患者為何癌症已經痊癒，
04:35
even after being cured of their cancer,
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卻常受抑鬱症之苦的理由，
04:37
because the cancer drug had stopped
newborn neurons from being generated.
newborn neurons from being generated.
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因為癌症藥阻止了
新神經的生長。
新神經的生長。
04:42
And it will take time
to generate new neurons
to generate new neurons
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而新神經需要時間生長，
04:45
that reach normal functions.
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才能達到正常功能。
04:49
So, collectively, now we think
we have enough evidence
we have enough evidence
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所以，我們現在共同認識到，
已經有足夠的證據顯示
已經有足夠的證據顯示
04:54
to say that neurogenesis
is a target of choice
is a target of choice
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神經再生是重要關鍵，
04:57
if we want to improve
memory formation or mood,
memory formation or mood,
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如果我們想要改善記憶或情緒
05:01
or even prevent the decline
associated with aging,
associated with aging,
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或者預防因為老化或壓力
05:05
or associated with stress.
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招致的腦部衰退。
05:08
So the next question is:
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所以，接下來要問的問題是：
05:10
can we control neurogenesis?
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我們可以控制神經再生嗎？
05:13
The answer is yes.
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答案是可以的。
05:14
And we are now going to do a little quiz.
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現在就讓大家來做一個小測驗。
05:18
I'm going to give you a set
of behaviors and activities,
of behaviors and activities,
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我將提示一連串的行為和活動，
05:21
and you tell me if you think
they will increase neurogenesis
they will increase neurogenesis
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請大家告訴我，
它們會助長神經再生
它們會助長神經再生
05:26
or if they will decrease neurogenesis.
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或者減少神經再生。
05:28
Are we ready?
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預備好了嗎？
05:30
OK, let's go.
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好，開始。
05:32
So what about learning?
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你認為學習怎樣呢？
05:34
Increasing?
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增加？
05:35
Yes.
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對。
05:36
Learning will increase the production
of these new neurons.
of these new neurons.
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學習會幫助腦部製造
更多新神經。
更多新神經。
05:40
How about stress?
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壓力又如何？
05:43
Yes, stress will decrease the production
of new neurons in the hippocampus.
of new neurons in the hippocampus.
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對，壓力會減低海馬體
的神經再生。
的神經再生。
05:48
How about sleep deprivation?
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睡眠不足又如何？
05:51
Indeed, it will decrease neurogenesis.
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其實那會減低神經再生。
05:54
How about sex?
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性行為又如何？
05:56
Oh, wow!
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噢，哇！
05:57
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
05:58
Yes, you are right, it will increase
the production of new neurons.
the production of new neurons.
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對，你們答對了。
那會增加新神經生長。
那會增加新神經生長。
06:02
However, it's all about balance here.
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但是每樣事都要適可而止。
06:04
We don't want to fall in a situation --
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我們不希望陷入另一種情況--
06:07
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
06:09
about too much sex
leading to sleep deprivation.
leading to sleep deprivation.
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太多性行為會導致睡眠不足。
06:11
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
06:14
How about getting older?
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年老又怎樣？
06:19
So the neurogenesis rate
will decrease as we get older,
will decrease as we get older,
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隨著年紀漸長，神經再生
的速度會慢下來，
的速度會慢下來，
06:23
but it is still occurring.
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但仍然會發生。
06:26
And then finally, how about running?
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最後，跑步又如何？
06:29
I will let you judge that one by yourself.
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我讓大家自己來判斷。
06:33
So this is one of the first studies
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這是我們最早作的一個硏究，
06:35
that was carried out by one of my mentors,
Rusty Gage from the Salk Institute,
Rusty Gage from the Salk Institute,
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是由我的導師 Rusty Gage 做實驗。
他來自 Salk 研究所。
他來自 Salk 研究所。
06:39
showing that the environment
can have an impact
can have an impact
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這個實驗證明環境會影響
06:42
on the production of new neurons.
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新神經的生長。
06:44
And here you see a section
of the hippocampus of a mouse
of the hippocampus of a mouse
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這是一隻老鼠的海馬體切片，
06:48
that had no running wheel in its cage.
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牠的籠子沒有轉輪。
06:50
And the little black dots you see
are actually newborn neurons-to-be.
are actually newborn neurons-to-be.
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而那些黑點其實是
新生的準神經。
新生的準神經。
06:55
And now, you see a section
of the hippocampus of a mouse
of the hippocampus of a mouse
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現在你看看另一隻老鼠的海馬體切片，
07:00
that had a running wheel in its cage.
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牠的籠子裝了轉輪。
07:03
So you see the massive increase
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你可以看到切片上有大量
07:04
of the black dots representing
the new neurons-to-be.
the new neurons-to-be.
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新増的黑點，那是新生
的準神經。
的準神經。
07:08
So activity impacts neurogenesis,
but that's not all.
but that's not all.
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所以活動會影響神經再生，
但是不只這樣。
但是不只這樣。
07:13
What you eat will have an effect
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你吃什麼也會影響
07:16
on the production of new neurons
in the hippocampus.
in the hippocampus.
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海馬體的神經再生。
07:19
So here we have a sample of diet --
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這裡有份飲食樣本
07:22
of nutrients that have been shown
to have efficacy.
to have efficacy.
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內含一些有效的營養物。
07:25
And I'm just going
to point a few out to you:
to point a few out to you:
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我現在只提出幾點供參考：
07:28
Calorie restriction of 20 to 30 percent
will increase neurogenesis.
will increase neurogenesis.
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減少20-30％的卡路里攝取量
會增加神經再生。
會增加神經再生。
07:34
Intermittent fasting --
spacing the time between your meals --
spacing the time between your meals --
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間歇性的禁食，把兩餐之間
的用餐時間隔開一點，
的用餐時間隔開一點，
07:37
will increase neurogenesis.
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有助神經再生。
07:39
Intake of flavonoids,
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攝食類黃酮，
07:41
which are contained
in dark chocolate or blueberries,
in dark chocolate or blueberries,
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黑巧克力或者藍莓都含有類黃酮，
07:44
will increase neurogenesis.
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有助增加神經再生。
07:46
Omega-3 fatty acids,
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奧米加-3 脂肪酸
07:47
present in fatty fish, like salmon,
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可以在多脂魚類，例如鮭魚中找到，
07:50
will increase the production
of these new neurons.
of these new neurons.
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會增加神經再生。
07:53
Conversely, a diet rich
in high saturated fat
in high saturated fat
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相反的，常吃太多飽和脂肪食物
07:57
will have a negative impact
on neurogenesis.
on neurogenesis.
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會對神經再生有壞影響。
08:01
Ethanol -- intake of alcohol --
will decrease neurogenesis.
will decrease neurogenesis.
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乙醇，即喝酒，會減低
神經再生。
神經再生。
08:05
However, not everything is lost;
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但不是每樣都要捨棄；
08:08
resveratrol, which is
contained in red wine,
contained in red wine,
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紅酒含有白藜蘆醇(resveratrol)
08:11
has been shown to promote
the survival of these new neurons.
the survival of these new neurons.
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已經證明可以增加
新神經的存活率。
新神經的存活率。
08:15
So next time you are at a dinner party,
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所以下次你參加晚宴，
08:17
you might want to reach for this possibly
"neurogenesis-neutral" drink.
"neurogenesis-neutral" drink.
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也許可以去拿這杯
可能《不影響神經再生》的飲品。
可能《不影響神經再生》的飲品。
08:21
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
08:24
And then finally,
let me point out the last one --
let me point out the last one --
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最後，我想提出最後一點，
08:26
a quirky one.
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較古怪的一點。
08:27
So Japanese groups are fascinated
with food textures,
with food textures,
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有日本團隊著迷於食物軟硬質地的研究，
08:31
and they have shown that actually
soft diet impairs neurogenesis,
soft diet impairs neurogenesis,
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其結果顯示太軟的飲食，
有礙神經再生，
有礙神經再生，
08:37
as opposed to food that requires
mastication -- chewing -- or crunchy food.
mastication -- chewing -- or crunchy food.
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這跟需要咀嚼或者鬆脆的食物
有助再生剛好相反。
有助再生剛好相反。
08:42
So all of this data,
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有關上述數據，
08:44
where we need to look
at the cellular level,
at the cellular level,
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我們皆需從細胞層次觀察，
08:47
has been generated using animal models.
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其資料皆來自動物模型。
08:50
But this diet has also been given
to human participants,
to human participants,
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但這些飲食我們也有
給人做實驗。
給人做實驗。
08:54
and what we could see is that
the diet modulates memory and mood
the diet modulates memory and mood
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我們觀察到這些飲食
調控記憶和情緒好壞的情形，
調控記憶和情緒好壞的情形，
09:01
in the same direction
as it modulates neurogenesis,
as it modulates neurogenesis,
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跟調控神經再生多寡的方向一致，
09:04
such as: calorie restriction
will improve memory capacity,
will improve memory capacity,
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例如限制卡路里攝取
會改善記憶容量，
會改善記憶容量，
09:09
whereas a high-fat diet will exacerbate
symptoms of depression --
symptoms of depression --
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而高脂肪飲食會加劇抑鬱症狀，
09:14
as opposed to omega-3 fatty acids,
which increase neurogenesis,
which increase neurogenesis,
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相反的，奥米加-3 脂肪酸
有助神經再生，
有助神經再生，
09:18
and also help to decrease
the symptoms of depression.
the symptoms of depression.
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也有助減輕抑鬱症狀。
09:23
So we think that the effect of diet
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所以我們認為飲食會影響
09:28
on mental health, on memory and mood,
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精神健康，記憶和情緒，
09:32
is actually mediated by the production
of the new neurons in the hippocampus.
of the new neurons in the hippocampus.
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其實是藉由調控海馬體內
新神經的生長而達成的。
新神經的生長而達成的。
09:36
And it's not only what you eat,
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影響因子並不只是你吃下什麼東西，
09:38
but it's also the texture
of the food, when you eat it
of the food, when you eat it
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還包括食物的軟硬質地，何時進食，
09:42
and how much of it you eat.
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及吃了多少份量。
09:45
On our side -- neuroscientists
interested in neurogenesis --
interested in neurogenesis --
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就研究神經再生的神經科學家而言，
09:49
we need to understand better
the function of these new neurons,
the function of these new neurons,
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我們需要再深入了解
這些新神經的功用，
這些新神經的功用，
09:53
and how we can control their survival
and their production.
and their production.
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怎樣才能控制其存活及再生率。
09:57
We also need to find a way to protect
the neurogenesis of Robert's patients.
the neurogenesis of Robert's patients.
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我們也需想辦法保護
Robert患者的神經再生。
Robert患者的神經再生。
10:03
And on your side --
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而就你們而言---
10:04
I leave you in charge
of your neurogenesis.
of your neurogenesis.
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就請大家好好負責自己的神經再生吧。
10:07
Thank you.
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謝謝。
10:08
(Applause)
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（鼓掌聲）
10:14
Margaret Heffernan:
Fantastic research, Sandrine.
Fantastic research, Sandrine.
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Margaret Heffernan：Sandrine，
你的研究非常好。
你的研究非常好。
10:17
Now, I told you you changed my life --
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我現在告訴你，
你改變了我的生活。
你改變了我的生活。
10:19
I now eat a lot of blueberries.
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我現在吃很多藍莓。
10:21
Sandrine Thuret: Very good.
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Sandrine Thuret：很好。
10:23
MH: I'm really interested
in the running thing.
in the running thing.
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MH： 我對跑步之類很有興趣。
10:26
Do I have to run?
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我是否一定要跑步？
10:29
Or is it really just
about aerobic exercise,
about aerobic exercise,
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或者也可作些有氧運動，
10:32
getting oxygen to the brain?
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讓腦部吸入氧氣？
10:33
Could it be any kind of vigorous exercise?
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做其他劇烈運動也可以嗎？
10:36
ST: So for the moment,
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ST：目前來看，
10:37
we can't really say
if it's just the running itself,
if it's just the running itself,
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我們真的不會說只有跑步才有用，
10:41
but we think that anything that indeed
will increase the production --
will increase the production --
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但會認為只要可以幫助細胞再生--
10:46
or moving the blood flow to the brain,
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或是讓血液流向腦部的運動，
10:49
should be beneficial.
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都是有益的。
10:51
MH: So I don't have to get
a running wheel in my office?
a running wheel in my office?
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MH：那麼我不用在辦公室
安裝一個轉輪嗎？
安裝一個轉輪嗎？
10:54
ST: No, you don't!
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ST：不用了。
10:55
MH: Oh, what a relief! That's wonderful.
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MH： 噢，鬆了一口氣！
真好。
真好。
10:57
Sandrine Thuret, thank you so much.
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多謝你，Sandrine Thuret
10:59
ST: Thank you, Margaret.
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ST：多謝，Margaret。
11:00
(Applause)
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(鼓掌聲）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Sandrine Thuret - Neural stem cell researcherSandrine Thuret studies the way adult brains create new nerve cells in the hippocampus -- a brain area involved in memory and mood.
Why you should listen
In her lab at King's College London, Sandrine Thuret studies adult neurogenesis -- the process by which adult brains create new nerve cells. (Until the 1990s, we didn't even know they did this!)
Thuret's work focuses on the hippocampus, the area of the brain that is related to memory, and her work asks two big questions: How can we help our healthy brains create new nerve cells throughout our lives, through diet and behavior changes? And how can we study the effects of diseases such as depression and Alzheimer's on our brains' ability to grow?
Sandrine Thuret | Speaker | TED.com