TEDSalon NY2013
Esther Perel: The secret to desire in a long-term relationship
艾絲特•佩雷爾：對長期伴侶保持欲望的秘訣
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我們總是希望自己的長期伴侶即是最好的朋友，也能保持性感魅力。但是艾絲特•佩雷爾提出，優質而且忠誠的性愛會帶來兩種矛盾的需求：我們對安全的需求以及我們對驚喜的需求。那麼如何來維持欲望呢？通過這次充滿智慧、又極具說服力的演講，佩雷爾讓我們瞭解到關於“愛欲商數”的秘密。
Esther Perel - Relationship therapist
Psychotherapist Esther Perel is changing the conversation on what it means to be in love and have a fulfilling sex life. Full bio
Psychotherapist Esther Perel is changing the conversation on what it means to be in love and have a fulfilling sex life. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:17
So, why does good sex so often fade,
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為什麼好的性愛容易消逝？
00:20
even for couples who continue to love each other as much as ever?
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即使對天長地久的夫婦也是一樣
00:25
And why does good intimacy not guarantee good sex,
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為什麼耳鬢廝磨也無法保證精彩的性愛？
00:28
contrary to popular belief?
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這一事實與公眾信念相悖
00:31
Or, the next question would be,
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或者說，還有一種問法
00:33
can we want what we already have?
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人們能否對已經擁有的東西心生嚮往？
00:35
That's the million-dollar question, right?
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這可是一個價值百萬的問題，對吧？
00:38
And why is the forbidden so erotic?
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為什麼禁忌總是如此充滿誘惑？
00:40
What is it about transgression that makes desire so potent?
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究竟是什麼能讓越軌的欲望變得如此強烈？
00:44
And why does sex make babies,
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為什麼性愛製造寶寶
00:46
and babies spell erotic disaster in couples?
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而寶寶卻註定了愛欲的湮滅？
00:50
It's kind of the fatal erotic blow, isn't it?
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這難道不是熄滅愛火的致命一擊嗎？
00:52
And when you love, how does it feel?
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愛情是什麼感覺？
00:55
And when you desire, how is it different?
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欲望又有何不同？
00:58
These are some of the questions
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這些問題
01:00
that are at the center of my exploration
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是我探索關於愛欲本質
01:02
on the nature of erotic desire
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的核心
01:05
and its concomitant dilemmas in modern love.
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以及由之衍生出來的種種當代戀愛難題
01:09
So I travel the globe,
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因此，我踏遍全球
01:11
and what I'm noticing is that
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隨之發現
01:13
everywhere where romanticism has entered,
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每當浪漫主義進入
01:16
there seems to be a crisis of desire.
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愛欲危機似乎就要到來
01:19
A crisis of desire, as in owning the wanting --
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擁有所缺之物會帶來欲望的危機
01:24
desire as an expression of our individuality,
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欲望是我們對個體的展現
01:27
of our free choice, of our preferences, of our identity --
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展現我們的自由選擇、我們的偏好、我們的身份
01:30
desire that has become a central concept
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欲望已成為一個核心概念
01:34
as part of modern love and individualistic societies.
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存在於當代戀愛中，存在於個人主義社會中
01:37
You know, this is the first time in the history of humankind
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諸位可知這是人類歷史上第一次
01:40
where we are trying to experience sexuality in the long term,
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人們想要長期地體驗性生活
01:46
not because we want 14 children,
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並非因為我們想要14個孩子
01:50
for which we need to have even more because many of them won't make it,
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或是我們需要生育更多以免一些孩子早夭
01:54
and not because it is exclusively a woman's marital duty.
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也不是因為這是女性獨有的婚姻義務
01:59
This is the first time that we want sex over time
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這是我們初次渴望長期活躍的性愛
02:03
about pleasure and connection that is rooted in desire.
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那份根植於欲望之中的歡愉和羈絆
02:08
So what sustains desire, and why is it so difficult?
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保持欲望的關鍵是什麼？為什麼如此困難？
02:11
And at the heart of sustaining desire in a committed relationship,
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在一段婚姻關係中維持欲望的關鍵
02:16
I think is the reconciliation of two fundamental human needs.
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我認為是兩種基本人類需求的調和
02:22
On the one hand, our need for security, for predictability,
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一邊是我們對安全和可預知性的需求
02:27
for safety, for dependability, for reliability, for permanence --
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渴望安定、可靠、可信、永恆
02:35
all these anchoring, grounding experiences of our lives
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這些都是人生中停船落地的體驗
02:38
that we call home.
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我們稱之為家
02:39
But we also have an equally strong need -- men and women --
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但我們無論男女也具有一種同樣強烈的需求
02:44
for adventure, for novelty, for mystery, for risk, for danger,
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渴望歷險、新奇、神秘、莫測、危險
02:49
for the unknown, for the unexpected, surprise --
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渴望未知，以及意料之外的驚喜
02:53
you get the gist -- for journey, for travel.
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你們領悟了吧——這就是旅程
02:57
So reconciling our need for security
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將我們對安全和冒險的兩種需求
02:59
and our need for adventure into one relationship,
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調和到一種關係中
03:02
or what we today like to call a passionate marriage,
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也就是實現我們今天所說的“激情婚姻”
03:05
used to be a contradiction in terms.
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曾經可是一對矛盾
03:07
Marriage was an economic institution
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婚姻從前是一項經濟制度
03:10
in which you were given a partnership for life
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人們被賦予了一個終身合夥關係
03:14
in terms of children and social status
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關乎後代、社會地位、
03:16
and succession and companionship.
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繼承權和溫情
03:19
But now we want our partner to still give us all these things,
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現在我們仍然對婚姻有著同樣的期待
03:23
but in addition I want you to be my best friend
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但同時也希望配偶是自己最好的朋友、
03:26
and my trusted confidant and my passionate lover to boot,
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也是值得託付的知己、更是激情澎湃的愛人
03:29
and we live twice as long.
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而我們的壽命，是前人的兩倍那麼久
03:30
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
03:33
So we come to one person, and we basically are asking them
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總而言之，我們現在要求那個人
03:37
to give us what once an entire village used to provide:
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能帶給我們從前全村上下一起提供的東西
03:41
Give me belonging, give me identity, give me continuity,
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歸屬感、身份、一致性，
03:45
but give me transcendence and mystery and awe all in one.
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還有超脫、神秘和敬畏
03:49
Give me comfort, give me edge.
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會帶來舒適感，也製造緊張感；
03:51
Give me novelty, give me familiarity.
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花樣不斷翻新，卻不脫離熟悉；
03:52
Give me predictability, give me surprise.
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讓我能夠預知，但也不乏驚喜；
03:55
And we think it's a given, and toys and lingerie are going to save us with that.
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而我們認為這只要靠情趣用品和情趣內衣就可以搞定了
03:59
(Applause)
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（掌聲）
04:04
So now we get to the existential reality of the story, right?
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這會兒我們觸及到了問題的現存真實
04:08
Because I think, in some way -- and I'll come back to that --
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我認為，從某種意義上（一會兒我會講到）
04:14
but the crisis of desire is often a crisis of the imagination.
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欲望的危機通常是一種想像力的危機
04:18
So why does good sex so often fade?
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為什麼好的性愛容易消逝？
04:21
What is the relationship between love and desire?
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愛和欲是一種什麼關係？
04:24
How do they relate, and how do they conflict?
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它們如何聯繫，又如何衝突？
04:27
Because therein lies the mystery of eroticism.
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性衝動的秘密就隱藏於此
04:30
So if there is a verb, for me, that comes with love, it's "to have."
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對我來說，如果用一個核心動詞來描述愛，那就是“擁有”
04:34
And if there is a verb that comes with desire, it is "to want."
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而用一個核心動詞來描述欲，那就是“渴望”
04:39
In love, we want to have, we want to know the beloved.
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沐浴愛河時，我們嚮往擁有，我們希望瞭解摯愛的那個人。
04:42
We want to minimize the distance. We want to contract that gap.
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我們要千方百計拉近距離，縮小差距，
04:47
We want to neutralize the tensions. We want closeness.
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減輕緊張，增進親密。
04:51
But in desire, we tend to not really want to go back to the places we've already gone.
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而欲火中燒時，我們卻並非想要那些已經擁有的東西
04:56
Forgone conclusion does not keep our interest.
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註定的結局無法引起我們的興趣
05:00
In desire, we want an Other, somebody on the other side that we can go visit,
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欲望就是我們渴望遠方有另一個人可以去拜訪
05:05
that we can go spend some time with,
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與之共度一段時光
05:07
that we can go see what goes on in their red light district.
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去看看他們的紅燈區有什麼事發生
05:11
In desire, we want a bridge to cross.
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欲火中燒時，我們渴望有座橋去跨越
05:15
Or in other words, I sometimes say, fire needs air.
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換個說法，我有時說風助火勢
05:18
Desire needs space.
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而空間成就欲望
05:20
And when it's said like that, it's often quite abstract.
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這樣的說法可能比較抽象
05:24
But then I took a question with me.
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但我會問一個（具體的）問題
05:25
And I've gone to more than 20 countries in the last few years
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過去幾年我到過20多個國家
05:28
with "Mating in Captivity," and I asked people,
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為了寫作《家中的性(Mating in Captivity)》這本書
05:31
when do you find yourself most drawn to your partner?
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我詢問人們：“你在什麼情況下覺得伴侶最有魅力？”
05:34
Not attracted sexually, per se, but most drawn.
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不是性的吸引，而是伴侶本身的魅力
05:37
And across culture, across religion, and across gender --
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無所謂文化、宗教、和性別的差異
05:41
except for one -- there are a few answers that just keep coming back.
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有些回答總是重複出現
05:46
So the first group is: I am most drawn to my partner
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第一組共同的回答是：“我認為伴侶最有魅力的時候,
05:51
when she is away, when we are apart, when we reunite.
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就是她不在身邊，我們相隔兩地，小別後的重逢時。”
05:57
Basically, when I get back in touch
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基本上，這些都是
06:01
with my ability to imagine myself with my partner,
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我能重新想像到與伴侶在一起的情形
06:05
when my imagination comes back in the picture,
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想像力之所以能回歸
06:07
and when I can root it in absence and in longing,
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原因在於伴侶不在身邊而產生的渴望
06:12
which is a major component of desire.
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這份渴望正是欲望的主要成分
06:15
But then the second group is even more interesting:
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第二組共同的回答則更為有趣：
06:18
I am most drawn to my partner
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“我認為伴侶最有魅力的時候，
06:20
when I see him in the studio, when she is onstage,
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“就是看到他在工作室（創作），她在舞臺上（表演）；
06:24
when he is in his element, when she's doing something she's passionate about,
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“當他在自己的領域如魚得水時；
當她做著全心熱愛的事情時；
當她做著全心熱愛的事情時；
06:28
when I see him at a party and other people are really drawn to him,
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當我看到他在派對上魅力四射、受到他人歡迎時；
06:32
when I see her hold court.
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“當我看到她主持庭審時。”
06:34
Basically, when I look at my partner radiant and confident,
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基本上，這些都是看到了對方光彩照人、自信煥發的時刻，
06:38
probably the biggest turn-on across the board.
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這可能是最重大、最全方位的興奮點
06:42
Radiant, as in self-sustaining.
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容光煥發，自立自足。
06:44
I look at this person -- by the way, in desire
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“我凝視著這個人”——而且還帶著欲望
06:47
people rarely talk about it, when we are blended into one,
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人們很少說“當我們合而為一時”
06:50
five centimeters from each other. I don't know in inches how much that is.
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“相距僅5公分。”我不知道(5公分)是多少英寸
（但至少說明距離不太近）
（但至少說明距離不太近）
06:53
But it's also not when the other person is that far apart
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對方也並沒有在太遙遠的地方
06:57
that you no longer see them.
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以至於你看不到他們
06:58
It's when I'm looking at my partner from a comfortable distance,
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我是在一個舒適的距離看著我的伴侶
07:02
where this person that is already so familiar, so known,
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當這個我已經非常熟悉、非常瞭解的人
07:07
is momentarily once again somewhat mysterious, somewhat elusive.
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頃刻間有變回了那個有些神秘、難以捉摸的人
07:12
And in this space between me and the other lies the erotic élan,
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在我與對方的空間之中醞釀著性衝動
07:16
lies that movement toward the other.
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這裡隱含著通向對方的行動
07:19
Because sometimes, as Proust says,
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有時候，就像普魯斯特所過的
07:21
mystery is not about traveling to new places,
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神秘“並不是去往新的風光，
07:24
but it's about looking with new eyes.
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而在於擁有新的眼光。”
07:26
And so, when I see my partner on his own or her own,
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因而，當我看到伴侶獨自一人
07:30
doing something in which they are enveloped,
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在獨特的氛圍中做著擅長的事
07:32
I look at this person and I momentarily get a shift in perception,
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我馬上就有了一個視角的轉換
07:37
and I stay open to the mysteries that are living right next to me.
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我對身邊的這個謎一樣的人保持著開放之心
07:42
And then, more importantly, in this description about the other
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更重要的一點是，在這條關於對方的描述中
07:47
or myself -- it's the same -- what is most interesting
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關於自己的描述也一樣，有一點尤其有趣
07:51
is that there is no neediness in desire.
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那就是欲望中無所謂需要
07:53
Nobody needs anybody.
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誰也不需要誰
07:55
There is no caretaking in desire.
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欲望中沒有關懷
07:58
Caretaking is mightily loving. It's a powerful anti-aphrodisiac.
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關懷絕對屬於愛情的範疇，它能夠強力地消除性欲
08:03
I have yet to see somebody who is so turned on
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我還未見到過有誰的衝動
08:05
by somebody who needs them.
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來源於需要他們的人
08:07
Wanting them is one thing. Needing them is a shutdown,
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渴望對方能激發衝動，需要對方卻能阻止衝動
08:10
and women have known that forever,
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女性向來深知這點
08:12
because anything that will bring up parenthood
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任何能激發母性的東西
08:15
will usually decrease the erotic charge.
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一般都能降低情欲水準
08:18
For good reasons, right?
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這並非毫無道理吧？
08:20
And then the third group of answers usually would be
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第三組共同的回答通常會是
08:24
when I'm surprised, when we laugh together,
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“當我感覺驚訝時，當我們一起歡笑時”
08:28
as somebody said to me in the office today,
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今天有人在辦公室告訴我：
08:30
when he's in his tux, so I said, you know,
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“當他穿上燕尾服的時候。”你們知道，
08:32
it's either the tux or the cowboy boots.
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要不就是燕尾服，要不就是牛仔靴
08:35
But basically it's when there is novelty.
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但基本上，都是出現了新穎元素的情形
08:39
But novelty isn't about new positions. It isn't a repertoire of techniques.
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新穎並不是說一定要有新體位，以及一大堆技巧
08:43
Novelty is, what parts of you do you bring out?
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新穎的關鍵是，你要表現自己的哪些部分？
08:47
What parts of you are just being seen?
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你要把哪些部分拿給對方看？
08:50
Because in some way one could say
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在某種意義上，我們可以說
08:52
sex isn't something you do, eh?
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性愛的奧妙並不在於你做了什麼
08:54
Sex is a place you go. It's a space you enter
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而在於你要達到什麼境界
08:57
inside yourself and with another, or others.
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對自己對他人皆然
09:00
So where do you go in sex?
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你要達到什麼境界？
09:03
What parts of you do you connect to?
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你連結了哪些部分？
09:05
What do you seek to express there?
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你追求什麼樣的表達？
09:07
Is it a place for transcendence and spiritual union?
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是一種超脫的靈魂結合嗎？
09:10
Is it a place for naughtiness and is it a place to be safely aggressive?
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是調皮搗蛋嗎？是安全地挑釁嗎？
09:15
Is it a place where you can finally surrender
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是要終於示一示弱，
09:17
and not have to take responsibility for everything?
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不再需要事事兼顧嗎？
09:20
Is it a place where you can express your infantile wishes?
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是不是要表達孩子氣的願望？
09:23
What comes out there? It's a language.
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你想要什麼結果？這是一種語言，
09:25
It isn't just a behavior.
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而不僅僅是一種行為。
09:28
And it's the poetic of that language that I'm interested in,
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這種語言的詩意所在才是我感興趣的
09:31
which is why I began to explore this concept of erotic intelligence.
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也是我之所以開始研究“愛欲情商”這個概念的原因
09:35
You know, animals have sex.
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大家都知道動物的性行為
09:37
It's the pivot, it's biology, it's the natural instinct.
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這是一個重點，是生物學，是自然本能。
09:40
We are the only ones who have an erotic life,
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人類是唯一具有性生活的物種
09:43
which means that it's sexuality transformed by the human imagination.
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這表明人類的性行為經過了想像力的加工轉換
09:49
We are the only ones who can make love for hours,
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唯獨人類的性愛可以持續數小時之久
09:53
have a blissful time, multiple orgasms,
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飄飄欲仙，數次高潮
09:56
and touch nobody, just because we can imagine it.
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完成這些甚至可以全靠想像而無需觸碰任何人
10:00
We can hint at it. We don't even have to do it.
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我們可以靠暗示，甚至無需付諸動作
10:03
We can experience that powerful thing called anticipation,
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期盼是我們能體驗到的一種強大的武器
10:06
which is a mortar to desire,
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來產生欲望
10:09
the ability to imagine it, as if it's happening,
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仿佛身臨其境的想像力
10:12
to experience it as if it's happening, while nothing is happening
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沒有什麼實際事件發生而能產生精神體驗
10:16
and everything is happening at the same time.
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還是甚為豐富的精神體驗
10:19
So when I began to think about eroticism,
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我開始思考性喚起
10:21
I began to think about the poetics of sex,
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開始研究關於性的詩歌
10:25
and if I look at it as an intelligence,
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如果它是一種智慧
10:27
then it's something that you cultivate.
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就說明它是能夠被培養的
10:29
What are the ingredients? Imagination, playfulness,
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它的構成元素是什麼？想像、戲謔
10:34
novelty, curiosity, mystery.
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新穎、好奇、神秘。
10:37
But the central agent is really that piece called the imagination.
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但其中最關鍵的部分當屬想像力
10:42
But more importantly, for me to begin to understand
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但對我的研究更為重要的是
10:45
who are the couples who have an erotic spark,
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要想明白激情四射的夫妻都有什麼特徵
10:48
what sustains desire, I had to go back
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欲望又是靠什麼來維持的
10:50
to the original definition of eroticism,
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我需要重新審視性喚起的定義
10:53
the mystical definition, and I went through it
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這一神秘的定義
10:56
through a bifurcation by looking actually at trauma,
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我從反面來看待這個問題
10:59
which is the other side, and I looked at it
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去檢驗“創傷”的定義
11:02
looking at the community that I had grown up in,
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我來到小時候居住的社區
11:04
which was a community in Belgium, all Holocaust survivors,
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那是一個居住著大屠殺倖存者的比利時的社區
11:08
and in my community there were two groups:
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在那裡有兩組人
11:11
those who didn't die, and those who came back to life.
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一組是大難不死，一組是劫後還生
11:15
And those who didn't die lived often very tethered to the ground,
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大難不死的那組人往往苟且偷生
11:18
could not experience pleasure, could not trust,
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無法感受歡樂，也無法給予信任，
11:22
because when you're vigilant, worried, anxious,
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因為他們小心翼翼，煩惱重重，憂慮無數，
11:24
and insecure, you can't lift your head
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擔驚受怕，就無法抬頭挺胸，
11:27
to go and take off in space and be playful and safe and imaginative.
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就無法堂堂正正地享受歡樂、心安，就無法充滿想像力；
11:32
Those who came back to life were those
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而劫後還生的那組人
11:35
who understood the erotic as an antidote to death.
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他們認為性喚起是死亡的一劑解藥
11:38
They knew how to keep themselves alive.
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他們知道如何求生
11:41
And when I began to listen to the sexlessness of the couples that I work with,
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當我為缺乏性生活的夫妻提供諮詢時
11:45
I sometimes would hear people say, "I want more sex,"
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常常聽到他們說“我想要更多的性愛”
11:48
but generally people want better sex,
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但通常人們想要的是更好的性愛
11:51
and better is to reconnect with that quality of aliveness,
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“更好”的意思是要把性重新變得充滿活力、
11:54
of vibrancy, of renewal, of vitality, of eros, of energy
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生機、更新、持續、性和能量，
11:58
that sex used to afford them, or that they've hoped
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就像性愛從前能帶給他們的那樣，
12:01
it would afford them.
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或者說他們認為如此。
12:03
And so I began to ask a different question.
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於是我問了另外一個問題：
12:06
"I shut myself off when ..." began to be the question.
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“我在什麼情況下讓自己性致全無？”成了新的問題。
12:11
"I turn off my desires when ..." which is not the same question as,
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“我在什麼情況下熄滅了自己的欲火？”
這與先前的問題不一樣：
這與先前的問題不一樣：
12:14
"What turns me off is ..." and "You turn me off when ..."
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“是什麼讓我性致全無？”
“你在什麼情況下讓我性致全無？”
“你在什麼情況下讓我性致全無？”
12:18
And people began to say, "I turn myself off when
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人們開始回答“我讓自己性致全無的原因有，
12:21
I feel dead inside, when I don't like my body,
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是我覺得了無生趣，當我不喜歡自己的身體，
12:24
when I feel old, when I haven't had time for myself,
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當我感到年華老去，沒有屬於自己的時間
12:27
when I haven't had a chance to even check in with you,
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當我找不到機會跟你好好談談，
12:30
when I don't perform well at work,
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當我工作不順，
12:31
when I feel low self esteem, when I don't have a sense of self-worth,
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當我不再自信，當我感到自己的存在沒什麼價值，
12:35
when I don't feel like I have a right to want, to take,
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當我感覺自己沒有權利去渴求，去索取，
12:38
to receive pleasure."
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去享受歡樂。”
12:40
And then I began to ask the reverse question.
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然後我詢問了相反的問題：
12:43
"I turn myself on when ..." Because most of the time,
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“我在什麼情況下性致勃勃？”因為多數時候，
12:45
people like to ask the question, "You turn me on,
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人們喜歡問的重點是：“你激發了我，”
12:48
what turns me on," and I'm out of the question. You know?
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“外物激發了我，”而“我”本人不在問題的考量之中。
12:52
Now, if you are dead inside, the other person can do a lot of things for Valentine's.
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如果你自身感覺了無生趣，
就算另一伴為了過情人節做很多事
就算另一伴為了過情人節做很多事
12:56
It won't make a dent. There is nobody at the reception desk.
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而你毫無感覺，因為沒人在前臺接待。
12:59
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
13:00
So I turn myself on when,
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所以，關鍵是“我”如何激發自己，
13:03
I turn my desires, I wake up when ...
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“我”被欲望喚起的情形有哪些。
13:07
Now, in this paradox between love and desire,
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在愛和欲的悖論之中
13:12
what seems to be so puzzling is that the very ingredients
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似乎最令人費解的就是
13:15
that nurture love -- mutuality, reciprocity,
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滋養愛的那些要素：親密、互惠、
13:20
protection, worry, responsibility for the other --
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保護、牽腸掛肚、對對方負責——
13:24
are sometimes the very ingredients that stifle desire.
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這些要素恰恰能扼殺欲
13:28
Because desire comes with a host of feelings
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因為產生欲的諸多因素
13:32
that are not always such favorites of love:
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恰恰無益於愛：
13:36
jealousy, possessiveness, aggression, power, dominance,
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嫉妒、佔有欲、侵略性、權力、支配、
13:40
naughtiness, mischief.
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頑皮、胡鬧。
13:42
Basically most of us will get turned on at night
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基本上，夜幕之下讓我們蠢蠢欲動的東西
13:45
by the very same things that we will demonstrate against during the day.
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正是我們光天白日反對的東西
13:49
You know, the erotic mind is not very politically correct.
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我們的情色心可不管自己心理是否政治正確。
13:52
If everybody was fantasizing on a bed of roses,
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如果每個人在一床玫瑰中都能想入非非，
13:55
we wouldn't be having such interesting talks about this.
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那麼我們也就不可能進行這次有趣的對話了。
13:59
But no, in our mind up there
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事情絕非如此簡單。
14:01
are a host of things going on that we don't always know
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我們很難把情色心裡萌發的那些東西
14:05
how to bring to the person that we love,
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傳達給我們的愛人
14:07
because we think love comes with selflessness
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因為我們認為愛是無私的，
14:10
and in fact desire comes with a certain amount of selfishness
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事實上，欲望需要一定程度的自私，
14:14
in the best sense of the word:
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從個最好的方面說：
14:15
the ability to stay connected to one's self
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就是在他人存在的前提下
14:18
in the presence of another.
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保持自我的能力。
14:20
So I want to draw that little image for you,
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大概地總結一下，就是
14:23
because this need to reconcile these two sets of needs,
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需要我們去調和兩組
14:27
we are born with that.
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與生俱來的需求
14:28
Our need for connection, our need for separateness,
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對聯繫和分離的需求，
14:31
or our need for security and adventure,
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對安定和冒險的需求，
14:33
or our need for togetherness and for autonomy,
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對團結和對自主的需求
14:36
and if you think about the little kid who sits on your lap
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拿小孩子來打比方，剛開始孩子總是坐在父母的膝上
14:39
and who is cozily nested here and very secure and comfortable,
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舒舒服服地窩著，又安全又放鬆，
14:43
and at some point all of us need to go out into the world
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但所有的孩子在某一天
都要掙開這個懷抱去看世界，
都要掙開這個懷抱去看世界，
14:47
to discover and to explore.
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去發現、去探索。
14:50
That's the beginning of desire,
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這就是欲望的開端。
14:51
that exploratory needs curiosity, discovery.
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探索需要好奇心和探究心。
14:56
And then at some point they turn around and they look at you,
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過了一會兒，孩子們肯定要回頭看你
15:00
and if you tell them,
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如果你這時候告訴他們：
15:02
"Hey kiddo, the world's a great place. Go for it.
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“孩子，世界很奇妙，放手去探索吧！
15:04
There's so much fun out there,"
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會有很多樂趣的。”
15:06
then they can turn away and they can experience
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這樣說了，他們就能轉身離開，
15:09
connection and separateness at the same time.
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並同時體驗到聯繫和分離。
15:11
They can go off in their imagination, off in their body,
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他們能盡情想像，盡情探索，
15:14
off in their playfulness, all the while knowing
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盡情玩樂，同時確信
15:17
that there's somebody when they come back.
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回轉時總有人等著他們。
15:20
But if on this side there is somebody who says,
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但是，如果另一方說：
15:22
"I'm worried. I'm anxious. I'm depressed.
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“我擔心、焦慮、絕望。
15:26
My partner hasn't taken care of me in so long.
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我的伴侶已經很長時間沒有照顧到我了。
15:28
What's so good out there? Don't we have everything
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外面有什麼好的？我們難道不是
已經擁有了在一起所需要的一切，
已經擁有了在一起所需要的一切，
15:31
you need together, you and I?"
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那就是你和我嗎？”
15:33
then there are a few little reactions
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這樣一來就會產生一些
15:35
that all of us can pretty much recognize.
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我們毫不陌生的反應。
15:38
Some of us will come back, came back a long time ago,
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我們中的一些人早早地回轉過來
15:43
and that little child who comes back
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像那個回轉過來的孩子一樣
15:45
is the child who will forgo a part of himself
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他放棄了自己的某些東西
15:48
in order not to lose the other.
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只為了不要失去對方。
15:51
I will lose my freedom in order not to lose connection.
287
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我放棄了自由，這樣就不會失去與你的關聯；
15:54
And I will learn to love in a certain way
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我要學會一種愛你的方式
15:57
that will become burdened with extra worry
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那將會負擔更多擔憂、
16:01
and extra responsibility and extra protection,
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更多責任、以及更多保護；
16:05
and I won't know how to leave you
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我不會離開你
16:07
in order to go play, in order to go experience pleasure,
292
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出去玩樂、體會歡愉，
16:11
in order to discover, to enter inside myself.
293
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去探索未知，深入自我。
16:14
Translate this into adult language.
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2884
把這些翻譯成大人的語言
16:17
It starts very young. It continues into our sex lives
295
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這樣的情形很早開始，並一直持續到
16:21
up to the end.
296
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性生活的終點。
16:22
Child number two comes back
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第二個孩子回轉了，
16:25
but looks like that over their shoulder all the time.
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但惴惴不安：
16:27
"Are you going to be there?
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“你還在嗎？
16:30
Are you going to curse me? Are you going to scold me?
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會不會罵我？
16:31
Are you going to be angry with me?"
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會不會生我的氣？”
16:33
And they may be gone, but they're never really away,
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他們也許會走開，但不會真正離開，
16:37
and those are often the people that will tell you,
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這些人經常告訴你
16:39
in the beginning it was super hot.
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2329
一開始他們打得火熱
16:41
Because in the beginning, the growing intimacy
305
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3576
因為逐漸增加的親密感
16:45
wasn't yet so strong
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並沒有強到
16:47
that it actually led to the decrease of desire.
307
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能減輕欲望
16:50
The more connected I became, the more responsible I felt,
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但當我們越來越親密，我就感到更多的責任，
16:54
the less I was able to let go in your presence.
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我就更加離不開你
16:57
The third child doesn't really come back.
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第三個孩子不再回轉。
17:00
So what happens, if you want to sustain desire,
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如果你想要維持那種欲望
17:03
it's that real dialectic piece.
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就要真正掌握其中的辯證。
17:05
On the one hand you want the security in order to be able to go.
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一方面，投入的前提是要有安全感
17:09
On the other hand if you can't go, you can't have pleasure,
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另一方面，投入才能產生歡愉
17:13
you can't culminate, you don't have an orgasm,
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才會達到頂峰，獲得高潮
17:16
you don't get excited because you spend your time
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你無法興奮的原因是
17:18
in the body and the head of the other and not in your own.
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你在別人、而不是自己的身體中和頭腦上花了太多工夫
17:21
So in this dilemma about reconciling
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要能夠調和
17:25
these two sets of fundamental needs,
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這兩組基本需求，
17:28
there are a few things that I've come to understand erotic couples do.
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那些成功保持了激情的夫妻有以下法寶：
17:32
One, they have a lot of sexual privacy.
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第一，他們在性生活上有較多的隱私。
17:35
They understand that there is an erotic space
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他們明白各人都應該有
17:37
that belongs to each of them.
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一些發揮情欲的空間
17:40
They also understand that foreplay is not something you do
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他們也懂得前戲
17:43
five minutes before the real thing.
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並不是上真傢夥之前五分鐘的動作戲，
17:45
Foreplay pretty much starts at the end of the previous orgasm.
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前戲可以說是從上一次高潮結束時就該開始了。
17:48
They also understand that an erotic space
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他們也懂得，情欲空間
17:51
isn't about, you begin to stroke the other.
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並不是單純的活塞運動
17:53
It's about you create a space where you leave Management Inc.,
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而是要離開Management公司
17:57
maybe where you leave the agile program,
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離開這個敏捷式管理專案
18:00
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
18:01
and you actually just enter that place
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你要進入那個領域
18:04
where you stop being the good citizen
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不用再充當良好市民
18:07
who is taking care of things and being responsible.
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不用再認真做事、負責任。
18:09
Responsibility and desire just butt heads.
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責任和欲望是一對矛盾，
18:13
They don't really do well together.
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它們無法協同合作。
18:15
Erotic couples also understand that passion waxes and wanes.
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能夠保持激情的夫妻也理解，激情是有盈虧的。
18:20
It's pretty much like the moon. It has intermittent eclipses.
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就像月亮一樣，它間歇性地會消減。
18:23
But what they know is they know how to resurrect it.
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但他們有本事讓激情重燃
18:26
They know how to bring it back,
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他們知道怎麼回復激情
18:28
and they know how to bring it back
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而他們之所以知道怎麼做，
18:29
because they have demystified one big myth,
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是因為他們已經解開了一個
18:31
which is the myth of spontaneity, which is
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關於自發性的大謎團
18:34
that it's just going to fall from heaven while you're folding the laundry
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當你在疊衣服時，性致可不會突然之間從天而降
18:38
like a deus ex machina, and in fact they understood
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像超級英雄那樣，他們懂得
18:41
that whatever is going to just happen
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將要發生的所有事
18:43
in a long-term relationship already has.
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在這個長期關係中已然存在
18:46
Committed sex is premeditated sex.
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婚姻中的性是有預謀的
18:49
It's willful. It's intentional.
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是有意策劃的
18:52
It's focus and presence.
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它聚焦，它存在
18:55
Merry Valentine's.
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情人節快樂
18:57
(Applause)
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（掌聲）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Esther Perel - Relationship therapistPsychotherapist Esther Perel is changing the conversation on what it means to be in love and have a fulfilling sex life.
Why you should listen
For the first time in human history, couples aren’t having sex just to have kids; there’s room for sustained desire and long-term sexual relationships. But how? Perel, a licensed marriage and family therapist with a practice in New York, travels the world to help people answer this question. For her research she works across cultures and is fluent in nine languages. She coaches, consults and speaks regularly on erotic intelligence, trauma, sexual honesty and conflict resolution. She is the author of Mating in Captivity: Reconciling the Erotic and the Domestic. Her latest work focuses on infidelity: what it is, why happy people do it and how couples can recover from it. She aims to locate this very personal experience within a larger cultural context.
Esther Perel | Speaker | TED.com