TEDMED 2012
Diane Kelly: What we didn't know about penis anatomy
Dajen Keli (Diane Kelly): Šta nismo znali o anatomiji penisa
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Nismo završili sa anatomijom. Znamo mnogo toga o genomici, proteomici i ćelijskoj biologiji, ali kao što Dajen Keli objašnjava na TEDMED konferenciji, postoje osnovne činjenice o ljudskom telu koje još uvek učimo. Jedan primer: kako funkcioniše erekcija kod sisara?
Diane Kelly - Biologist
Diane Kelly studies vertebrate anatomy, in particular the connection between the design and the function of reproductive organs. Full bio
Diane Kelly studies vertebrate anatomy, in particular the connection between the design and the function of reproductive organs. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:15
When I go to parties,
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Kada odem na žurke,
00:17
it doesn't usually take very long
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obično ne prođe puno vremena
00:19
for people to find out
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dok ljudi ne saznaju
00:20
that I'm a scientist and I study sex.
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da sam naučnik i da proučavam seks.
00:23
And then I get asked questions.
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Onda mi postavljaju pitanja.
00:28
And the questions usually have a very particular format.
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Pitanja obično imaju veoma specifičan oblik.
00:31
They start with the phrase,
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Počinju sa frazom:
00:32
"A friend told me,"
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"Prijatelj mi je rekao",
00:34
and then they end with the phrase,
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a završavaju se frazom:
00:36
"Is this true?"
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"Da li je ovo tačno?"
00:38
And most of the time
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Uglavnom mi je drago
00:39
I'm glad to say that I can answer them,
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da mogu da im odgovorim,
00:41
but sometimes I have to say,
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ali ponekad moram da kažem:
00:43
"I'm really sorry,
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"Zaista mi je žao,
00:44
but I don't know
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ali ne znam,
00:46
because I'm not that kind of a doctor."
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zato što ja nisam ta vrsta doktora."
00:49
That is, I'm not a clinician,
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To jest, ja nisam kliničar,
00:51
I'm a comparative biologist who studies anatomy.
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ja sam komparativni biolog koji proučava anatomiju.
00:54
And my job is to look at lots of different species of animals
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Moj posao je da pregledam mnogo različitih životinjskih vrsta
00:57
and try to figure out how their tissues and organs work
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i pokušam da shvatim kako njihova tkiva i organi rade
01:00
when everything's going right,
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kada je sve u redu,
01:02
rather than trying to figure out
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a ne da pokušavam da shvatim
01:03
how to fix things when they go wrong,
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kako da popravim stvari kada krenu po zlu,
01:05
like so many of you.
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kao što rade mnogi od vas.
01:06
And what I do is I look for similarities and differences
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Ono što radim jeste da tražim sličnosti i razlike
01:08
in the solutions that they've evolved
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u evolutivnim rešenjima
01:11
for fundamental biological problems.
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za osnovne biološke probleme.
01:12
So today I'm here to argue
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Danas sam ovde da bih raspravila
01:14
that this is not at all
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da ovo uopšte nije
01:18
an esoteric Ivory Tower activity
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neka ezoterična, beskorisna aktivnost,
01:20
that we find at our universities,
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koju nalazimo na našim univerzitetima.
01:21
but that broad study
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To obimno proučavanje,
01:23
across species, tissue types and organ systems
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preko različitih vrsta, tipova tkiva i sistema organa,
01:26
can produce insights
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može da pruži uvide
01:28
that have direct implications for human health.
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koji imaju direktne implikacije na ljudsko zdravlje.
01:31
And this is true both of my recent project
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Ovo je istina za oba moja skorašnja istraživanja
01:34
on sex differences in the brain,
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polnih razlika u mozgu,
01:35
and my more mature work
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kao i za moj stariji rad
01:37
on the anatomy and function of penises.
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o anatomiji i funkciji penisa.
01:40
And now you know why I'm fun at parties.
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Sada znate zašto sam zabavna na žurkama.
01:43
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
01:44
So today I'm going to give you an example
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Danas ću vam dati jedan primer
01:46
drawn from my penis study
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izvučen iz moje studije o penisu,
01:48
to show you how knowledge
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da bih vam pokazala kako je znanje
01:49
drawn from studies of one organ system
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uzeto iz proučavanja jednog sistema organa,
01:51
provided insights into a very different one.
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pružilo uvid u veoma različit sistem.
01:54
Now I'm sure as everyone in the audience already knows --
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Sada, sigurna sam da svi u publici već znaju --
01:57
I did have to explain it to my nine-year-old late last week --
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morala sam to da objasnim svom devetogodišnjaku krajem prošle nedelje --
02:01
penises are structures that transfer sperm
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penisi su strukture koje prenose spermu
02:04
from one individual to another.
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od jedne osobe do druge.
02:06
And the slide behind me
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Slajd iza mene
02:07
barely scratches the surface
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je jedva zagrebao površinu
02:09
of how widespread they are in animals.
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njihove rasprostranjenosti među životinjama.
02:11
There's an enormous amount of anatomical variation.
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Postoji ogroman broj anatomskih varijacija.
02:13
You find muscular tubes, modified legs, modified fins,
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Nalazite mišićne cevi, modifikovane noge, modifikovana peraja,
02:17
as well as the mammalian fleshy, inflatable cylinder
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kao i mesnati cilindar sisara koji može da se naduva
02:21
that we're all familiar with --
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koji svi poznajemo --
02:22
or at least half of you are.
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ili bar polovina vas.
02:24
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
02:27
And I think we see this tremendous variation
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Mislim da vidimo ove neverovatne varijacije
02:30
because it's a really effective solution
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zato što je to veoma efikasno rešenje
02:33
to a very basic biological problem,
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za bazični biološki problem,
02:35
and that is getting sperm in a position
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a to je postavljanje sperme u položaj
02:37
to meet up with eggs and form zygotes.
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iz kog može da se sretne sa jajnom ćelijom i formira zigot.
02:40
Now the penis isn't actually required for internal fertiliztion,
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Sada, penis zapravo nije neophodan za unutrašnje oplođenje,
02:44
but when internal fertilization evolves,
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ali kada se unutrašnje oplođenje javlja u evoluciji,
02:46
penises often follow.
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penisi tu promenu često prate.
02:48
And the question I get when I start talking about this most often is,
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Pitanje koje mi najčešće postave, kada počnem da pričam o ovome, je:
02:53
"What made you interested in this subject?"
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"Šta te je zainteresovalo za ovu temu?"
02:56
And the answer is skeletons.
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Odgovor je - skeleti.
03:00
You wouldn't think that skeletons and penises
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Ne biste pomislili da skeleti i penisi
03:02
have very much to do with one another.
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imaju bilo šta zajedničko.
03:04
And that's because we tend to think of skeletons
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Ovo je zbog toga što smo skloni da o skeletima razmišljamo
03:06
as stiff lever systems
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kao o krutim sistemima poluga
03:08
that produce speed or power.
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koji proizvode brzinu ili snagu.
03:09
And my first forays into biological research,
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Moji prvi pokušaji bioloških istraživanja
03:13
doing dinosaur paleontology as an undergraduate,
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dok sam se kao student bavila paleontologijom dinosaurusa,
03:16
were really squarely in that realm.
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su nedvosmisleno bili iz ove oblasti.
03:17
But when I went to graduate school to study biomechanics,
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Ali kada sam otišla na postdiplomske studije biomehanike,
03:21
I really wanted to find a dissertation project
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zaista sam želela da nađem projekat za disertaciju
03:23
that would expand our knowledge of skeletal function.
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koji bi proširio naše znanje u funkciji skeleta.
03:26
I tried a bunch of different stuff.
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Pokušala sam mnoštvo različitih stvari.
03:28
A lot of it didn't pan out.
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Mnoge nisu uspele.
03:29
But then one day I started thinking
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Međutim, jednog dana sam počela da razmišljam
03:31
about the mammalian penis.
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o penisu sisara.
03:33
And it's really an odd sort of structure.
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To je zaista neobična vrsta strukture.
03:37
Before it can be used for internal fertilization,
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Pre nego što može da se upotrebi za unutrašnje oplođenje,
03:40
its mechanical behavior has to change
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njegova mehanička svojstva moraju da se promene
03:41
in a really dramatic fashion.
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na zaista dramatičan način.
03:43
Most of the time it's a flexible organ.
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Većinu vremena, to je fleksibilan organ.
03:46
It's easy to bend.
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Lako ga je saviti.
03:47
But before it's brought into use
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Ali pre nego bude upotrebljen,
03:49
during copulation
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tokom snošaja,
03:50
it has to become rigid,
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mora da postane krut,
03:52
it has to become difficult to bend.
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mora da postane težak za savijanje.
03:54
And moreover, it has to work.
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Štaviše, mora da radi.
03:56
A reproductive system that fails to function
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Reproduktivni sistem koji podbaci u funkciji
03:59
produces an individual that has no offspring,
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daje individuu koja nema potomstvo
04:02
and that individual is then kicked out of the gene pool.
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i ona je onda izbačena iz sveukupne baze gena.
04:05
And so I thought, "Here's a problem
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Onda sam pomislila: "Evo problema
04:08
that just cries out for a skeletal system --
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koji jednostavno vapi za skeletnim sistemom --
04:11
not one like this one,
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ne za nekim poput ovoga,
04:14
but one like this one --
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već za jednim kao ovaj" --
04:17
because, functionally,
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zato što, funkcionalno gledano,
04:20
a skeleton is any system
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skelet je bilo koji sistem
04:21
that supports tissue and transmits forces.
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koji podupire tkiva i prenosi sile.
04:24
And I already knew that animals like this earthworm,
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Već sam znala da životinje, poput ove gliste,
04:26
indeed most animals,
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u stvari, većina životinja,
04:28
don't support their tissues
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na podupire svoja tkiva
04:29
by draping them over bones.
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time što njima prekriva svoje kosti.
04:31
Instead they're more like reinforced water balloons.
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Umesto toga, oni su više kao ojačani vodeni baloni.
04:34
They use a skeleton that we call a hydrostatic skeleton.
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Oni koriste skelet koji mi nazivamo hidrostatički skelet.
04:38
And a hydrostatic skeleton
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Hidrostatički skelet
04:40
uses two elements.
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koristi dva elementa.
04:42
The skeletal support comes from an interaction
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Potpora skeleta potiče iz interakcije
04:44
between a pressurized fluid
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tečnosti pod pritiskom
04:46
and a surrounding wall of tissue
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i okolnog tkivnog zida
04:47
that's held in tension and reinforced with fibrous proteins.
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koji je zategnut i ojačan fibroznim proteinima.
04:52
And the interaction is crucial.
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Ova interakcija je ključna.
04:54
Without both elements you have no support.
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Bez oba elementa nema potpore.
04:57
If you have fluid
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Ako imate tečnost
04:59
with no wall to surround it
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bez okolnog zida
05:01
and keep pressure up,
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koji održava povišen pritisak,
05:02
you have a puddle.
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dobijate baru.
05:04
And if you have just the wall
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A ako imate samo zid,
05:06
with no fluid inside of it to put the wall in tension,
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bez tečnosti unutra koja će izvršiti pritisak na zid,
05:08
you've got a little wet rag.
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onda dobijete malu, vlažnu krpu.
05:10
When you look at a penis in cross section,
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Kada pogledate presek penisa
05:12
it has a lot of the hallmarks
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on ima mnoštvo obeležja
05:15
of a hydrostatic skeleton.
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hidrostatičkog skeleta.
05:17
It has a central space
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Ima centralni prostor
05:18
of spongy erectile tissue
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od erektilnog, sunđerastog tkiva
05:20
that fills with fluid -- in this case blood --
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koji je ispunjen tečnošću -- u ovom slučaju krvlju --
05:22
surrounded by a wall of tissue
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a okružen je zidom tkiva
05:25
that's rich in a stiff structural protein called collagen.
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bogatim čvrstim strukturnim proteinom koji zovemo kolagen.
05:29
But at the time when I started this project,
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U vreme kada sam započela ovaj projekat,
05:31
the best explanation I could find for penal erection
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najbolje objašnjenje koje sam mogla da pronađem za erekciju penisa
05:34
was that the wall surrounded these spongy tissues,
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je da zid okružuje ova sunđerasta tkiva,
05:39
and the spongy tissues filled with blood
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a sunđerasta tkiva se ispune krvlju,
05:40
and pressure rose and voila! it became erect.
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pritisak raste i eto! Postao je uspravan.
05:44
And that explained to me expansion --
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I to mi je objasnilo ekspanziju --
05:48
made sense: more fluid, you get tissues that expand --
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imalo je smisla: više tečnosti, dobijete tkiva koja se šire --
05:51
but it didn't actually explain erection.
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ali zapravo nije objasnilo erekciju.
05:54
Because there was no mechanism in this explanation
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Zato što u ovom objašnjenju nema mehanizma
05:58
for making this structure hard to bend.
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koji bi strukturu napravio teškom za savijanje.
06:01
And no one had systematically looked at the wall tissue.
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Niko nije sistematski pogledao tkivo zida.
06:04
So I thought, wall tissue's important in skeletons.
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Pomislila sam, tkivo zida je značajno u skeletima.
06:06
It has to be part of the explanation.
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Ono mora da bude deo objašnjenja.
06:09
And this was the point
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U ovom trenutku
06:11
at which my graduate adviser said,
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moj mentor je rekao:
06:14
"Whoa! Hold on. Slow down."
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"Opa! Čekaj. Stani malo."
06:17
Because after about six months of me talking about this,
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Nakon otprilike šest meseci pričanja o ovome,
06:21
I think he finally figured out
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mislila sam da je konačno shvatio
06:22
that I was really serious about the penis thing.
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da sam zaista bila ozbiljna o ovoj stvari sa penisom.
06:25
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
06:28
So he sat me down, and he warned me.
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Rekao mi je da sednem i upozorio me.
06:30
He was like, "Be careful going down this path.
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Rekao je: "Budi oprezna na tom putu.
06:32
I'm not sure this project's going to pan out."
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Nisam siguran da će ovaj projekat uspeti."
06:35
Because he was afraid I was walking into a trap.
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Plašio se da ću upasti u zamku.
06:38
I was taking on a socially embarrassing question
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Preuzela sam društveno neprijatno pitanje
06:42
with an answer that he thought
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sa odgovorom, za koji je on mislio
06:45
might not be particularly interesting.
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da neće biti naročito interesantan.
06:47
And that was because
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To je bilo zbog toga što je
06:49
every hydrostatic skeleton
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svaki hidrostatički skelet,
06:50
that we had found in nature up to that point
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koji smo do tog trenutka pronašli u prirodi,
06:52
had the same basic elements.
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imao iste osnovne elemente.
06:54
It had the central fluid,
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Imao je centralnu tečnost,
06:55
it had the surrounding wall,
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imao je okolni zid,
06:57
and the reinforcing fibers in the wall
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a potporna vlakna u zidu
07:00
were arranged in crossed helices
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su bila organizovana u ukrštene navoje
07:03
around the long axis of the skeleton.
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duž uzdužne ose skeleta.
07:05
So the image behind me
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Slika iza mene
07:06
shows a piece of tissue
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pokazuje deo tkiva
07:08
in one of these cross helical skeletons
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jednog od ovih skeleta sa ukrštenim navojima,
07:10
cut so that you're looking at the surface of the wall.
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presečenog tako da vidimo površinu zida.
07:12
The arrow shows you the long axis.
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Strelica vam pokazuje uzdužnu osu.
07:14
And you can see two layers of fibers,
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Možete da vidite dva sloja vlakana,
07:16
one in blue and one in yellow,
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jedan plav, a drugi žut,
07:17
arranged in left-handed and right-handed angles.
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organizovana u leve i desne spirale.
07:20
And if you weren't just looking at a little section of the fibers,
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Ukoliko ne biste gledali samo mali presek ovih vlakana,
07:22
those fibers would be going in helices
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ta vlakna bi se kretala u navojima
07:25
around the long axis of the skeleton --
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duž uzdužne ose skeleta --
07:27
something like a Chinese finger trap,
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nešto poput kineske zamke za prste,
07:29
where you stick your fingers in and they get stuck.
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gde ubacite svoje prste unutra i oni se zaglave.
07:31
And these skeletons have a particular set of behaviors,
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Ovi skeleti imaju specifičan set ponašanja,
07:34
which I'm going to demonstrate in a film.
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koja ću vam demonstrirati jednim filmom.
07:36
It's a model skeleton
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Ovo je model skeleta
07:37
that I made out of a piece of cloth
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koji sam napravila od parčeta tkanine,
07:39
that I wrapped around an inflated balloon.
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koje sam obmotala oko naduvanog balona.
07:42
The cloth's cut on the bias.
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Tkanina je isečena po dijagonali.
07:44
So you can see that the fibers wrap in helices,
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Vidite da su vlakna umotana u navoje
07:46
and those fibers can reorient as the skeleton moves,
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i ta vlakna mogu da se reorijentišu kako se skelet pomera,
07:51
which means the skeleton's flexible.
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što znači da je skelet fleksibilan.
07:52
It lengthens, shortens and bends really easily
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Produžava se, skraćuje i savija veoma lako
07:55
in response to internal or external forces.
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kao odgovor na unutrašnje ili spoljašnje sile.
07:58
Now my adviser's concern
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Moj mentor je brinuo,
07:59
was what if the penile wall tissue
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šta ako je tkivo zida penisa
08:02
is just the same as any other hydrostatic skeleton.
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isto kao i bilo koji drugi hidrostatički skelet.
08:04
What are you going to contribute?
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Čime ćeš da doprineseš?
08:05
What new thing are you contributing
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Kojim to novim otkrićem doprinosiš
08:07
to our knowledge of biology?
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našem znanju iz biologije?
08:09
And I thought, "Yeah, he does have a really good point here."
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Pomislila sam: "Da, zaista je u pravu."
08:12
So I spent a long, long time thinking about it.
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Provela sam puno, puno vremena razmišljajući o tome.
08:14
And one thing kept bothering me,
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Jedna stvar me je brinula,
08:16
and that's, when they're functioning,
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a to je, kada oni funkcionišu,
08:18
penises don't wiggle.
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penisi se ne migolje.
08:20
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
08:23
So something interesting had to be going on.
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Dakle, nešto interesantno je moralo da se događa.
08:25
So I went ahead, collected wall tissue,
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Nastavila sam, prikupila tkivo zida,
08:29
prepared it so it was erect,
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pripremila ga, tako da je bilo uzdignuto,
08:30
sectioned it, put it on slides
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secirala, stavila na slajd,
08:33
and then stuck it under the microscope to have a look,
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a onda ga gurnula pod mikroskop da pogledam,
08:35
fully expecting to see crossed helices of collagen of some variety.
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očekujući da vidim presečenu neku vrstu navoja kolagena.
08:40
But instead I saw this.
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Umesto toga, videla sam ovo.
08:43
There's an outer layer and an inner layer.
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Postoji unutrašnji i spoljašnji sloj.
08:46
The arrow shows you the long axis of the skeleton.
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Strelica vam pokazuje dužu osu skeleta.
08:48
I was really surprised at this.
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Bila sam zaista iznenađena ovim.
08:51
Everyone I showed it
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Svako kome sam ovo pokazala
08:52
was really surprised at this.
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se iznenadio.
08:53
Why was everyone surprised at this?
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Zašto su svi bili iznenađeni ovim?
08:54
That's because we knew theoretically
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Zato što smo teorijski znali
08:57
that there was another way
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da postoji drugi način
09:00
of arranging fibers in a hydrostatic skeleton,
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organizovanja vlakana u hidrostatičkom skeletu,
09:03
and that was with fibers at zero degrees
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a to je, vlakna su postavljena na nula stepeni
09:06
and 90 degrees to the long axis of the structure.
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i na 90 stepeni u odnosu na dužu osu strukture.
09:09
The thing is, no one had ever seen it before in nature.
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Stvar je u tome, niko to pre nije video u prirodi.
09:13
And now I was looking at one.
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A sada sam gledala u jedan primer.
09:16
Those fibers in that particular orientation
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Ta vlakna, sa tom specifičnom orijentacijom,
09:18
give the skeleton a very, very different behavior.
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daju skeletu veoma, veoma drugačije ponašanje.
09:22
I'm going to show a model
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Pokazaću vam model
09:23
made out of exactly the same materials.
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napravljen od potpuno istih materijala.
09:25
So it'll be made of the same cotton cloth,
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Biće napravljen od iste pamučne tkanine,
09:27
same balloon, same internal pressure.
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istog balona, sa istim unutrašnjim pritiskom.
09:30
But the only difference
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Jedina razlika
09:33
is that the fibers are arranged differently.
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je što su vlakna organizovana na drugačiji način.
09:35
And you'll see that, unlike the cross helical model,
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Videćete da, za razliku od modela sa ukrštenim navojima,
09:38
this model resists extension and contraction
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ovaj model odoleva širenju i skupljanju
09:41
and resists bending.
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i odoleva savijanju.
09:42
Now what that tells us
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To nam govori da
09:43
is that wall tissues are doing so much more
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tkiva zidova obavljaju mnogo više
09:45
than just covering the vascular tissues.
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od pukog pokrivanja vaskularnih tkiva.
09:48
They're an integral part of the penile skeleton.
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Ona su sastavni deo skeleta penisa.
09:51
If the wall around the erectile tissue wasn't there,
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Da zid oko erektilnog tkiva nije tamo,
09:54
if it wasn't reinforced in this way,
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da nije ojačan na ovaj način,
09:56
the shape would change,
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oblik bi se promenio,
09:57
but the inflated penis would not resist bending,
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pa naduvani penis ne bi odoleo savijanju
09:59
and erection simply wouldn't work.
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i erekcija jednostavno ne bi radila.
10:01
It's an observation with obvious medical applications
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To je opažanje sa očiglednom medicinskom primenom
10:04
in humans as well,
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kod ljudi,
10:06
but it's also relevant in a broad sense, I think,
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ali je isto tako relevantno i u širem smislu,
10:09
to the design of prosthetics, soft robots,
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u dizajnu protetskih pomagala, mekih robota,
10:11
basically anything
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u osnovi bilo čega
10:12
where changes of shape and stiffness are important.
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gde su promene u obliku i tvrdoći bitne.
10:16
So to sum up:
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Dakle, da rezimiram:
10:17
Twenty years ago,
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Pre dvadeset godina
10:19
I had a college adviser tell me,
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imala sam mentora,
10:20
when I went to the college and said,
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kada sam otišla kod njega i rekla:
10:22
"I'm kind of interested in anatomy,"
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"Pomalo se interesujem za anatomiju",
10:23
they said, "Anatomy's a dead science."
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dobila sam odgovor: "Anatomija je mrtva nauka."
10:25
He couldn't have been more wrong.
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Nije mogao više da pogreši.
10:28
I really believe that we still have a lot to learn
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Ja zaista verujem da još uvek imamo dosta toga da naučimo
10:31
about the normal structure and function of our bodies.
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o normalnoj strukturi i funkciji naših tela.
10:34
Not just about its genetics and molecular biology,
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Ne samo o njegovoj genetici i molekularnoj biologiji,
10:37
but up here in the meat end of the scale.
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nego i ovde gore, ne poslednjem stepenu evolucije.
10:40
We've got limits on our time.
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Imamo ograničenja sa našim vremenom.
10:42
We often focus on one disease,
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Često se fokusiramo na jednu bolest,
10:44
one model, one problem,
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jedan model, jedan problem,
10:45
but my experience suggests
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ali moje iskustvo upućuje
10:47
that we should take the time
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da treba da izdvojimo vreme
10:48
to apply ideas broadly between systems
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i primenimo ideje široko među sistemima
10:51
and just see where it takes us.
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i vidimo gde će nas to odvesti.
10:53
After all, if ideas about invertebrate skeletons
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Na kraju, ako nam ideje o skeletima beskičmenjaka
10:56
can give us insights
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mogu dati uvide
10:58
about mammalian reproductive systems,
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o reproduktivnim sistemima sisara,
11:00
there could be lots of other wild and productive connections
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može postojati mnogo fantastičnih i produktivnih veza
11:04
lurking out there just waiting to be found.
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koje vrebaju i čekaju da budu otkrivene.
11:06
Thank you.
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Hvala vam.
11:08
(Applause)
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(Aplauz)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Diane Kelly - BiologistDiane Kelly studies vertebrate anatomy, in particular the connection between the design and the function of reproductive organs.
Why you should listen
Diane A. Kelly is a Senior Research Fellow at the University of Massachusetts, Amherst. Her research interests include the evolution of copulatory systems and sexual differentiation in the nervous system. She is best known for her original work on the anatomy and function of vertebrate penises, but has also written children’s books, created exhibits for science museums, helped exhume a mastodon, and designed and published a pair of quirky science card games. Kelly holds a Ph.D. in Zoology from Duke University and an A.B. in Biological Sciences from the University of Chicago.
She blogs at Science Made Cool -- where she wrote about what it was like to give this talk.
Listen to Diane's hilarious, thoughtful StoryCollider podcast, "Death on the Road" >>
Diane Kelly | Speaker | TED.com