TED2014
David Chalmers: How do you explain consciousness?
Dejvid Čalmers (David Chalmers): Kako objasniti svest?
Filmed:
Readability: 4.6
2,876,790 views
Naša svest je fundamentalni aspekt našeg postojanja, kaže filozof Dejvid Čalmers: "Nema ničeg o čemu više znamo direktno..., ali istovremeno je najmisterioznija pojava u univerzumu." On deli neke načine razmišljanja o filmu koji se odvija u našim glavama.
David Chalmers - Philosopher
In his work, David Chalmers explores the “hard problem of consciousness" -- the quest to explain our subjective experience. Full bio
In his work, David Chalmers explores the “hard problem of consciousness" -- the quest to explain our subjective experience. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
Right now
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Baš sada
00:14
you have a movie playing inside your head.
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vam se odvija film u glavi.
00:17
It's an amazing multi-track movie.
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To je neverovatan film na više kanala.
00:20
It has 3D vision and surround sound
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Ima 3D vid i okružujući zvuk
00:23
for what you're seeing and hearing right now,
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za ono što sada vidite i čujete,
00:26
but that's just the start of it.
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ali to je samo početak.
00:28
Your movie has smell and taste and touch.
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Vaš film ima miris i ukus i dodir.
00:33
It has a sense of your body,
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Ima osećaj vašeg tela,
00:36
pain, hunger, orgasms.
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bol, glad, orgazme.
00:40
It has emotions,
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Ima emocije,
00:42
anger and happiness.
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gnev i sreću.
00:46
It has memories, like scenes from your childhood
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Ima sećanja,
kao što su scene iz vašeg detinjstva
kao što su scene iz vašeg detinjstva
00:50
playing before you.
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koje se odigravaju pred vama.
00:52
And it has this constant voiceover narrative
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I ima taj stalni narativ
00:57
in your stream of conscious thinking.
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u vašem toku svesnog razmišljanja.
01:01
At the heart of this movie is you
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U srcu ovog filma ste vi
01:06
experiencing all this directly.
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koji to direktno doživljavate.
01:11
This movie is your stream of consciousness,
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Ovaj film je vaš tok svesti,
01:16
the subject of experience
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predmet iskustva
01:18
of the mind and the world.
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uma i sveta.
01:23
Consciousness is one of the fundamental facts
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Svest je jedna od fundamentalnih činjenica
01:25
of human existence.
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ljudskog postojanja.
01:27
Each of us is conscious.
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Svako od nas je svestan.
01:30
We all have our own inner movie,
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Svi mi imamo
naš sopstveni unutrašnji film,
naš sopstveni unutrašnji film,
01:33
you and you and you.
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vi i vi i vi.
01:36
There's nothing we know about more directly.
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Ne postoji ništa
o čemu znamo više direktno.
o čemu znamo više direktno.
01:39
At least, I know about my consciousness directly.
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Ili makar ja znam
o svojoj svesti direktno.
o svojoj svesti direktno.
01:43
I can't be certain that you guys are conscious.
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Ne mogu da budem siguran
da ste vi svesni.
da ste vi svesni.
01:47
Consciousness also is what makes life worth living.
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Svest je takođe ono
što čini život vrednim življenja.
što čini život vrednim življenja.
01:50
If we weren't conscious, nothing in our lives
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Kada ne bismo bili svesni,
ništa u našim životima
ništa u našim životima
01:54
would have meaning or value.
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ne bi imalo smisao niti vrednost.
01:57
But at the same time, it's the most
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Ali istovremeno, to je
01:58
mysterious phenomenon in the universe.
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najmisterioznija pojava u univerzumu.
02:03
Why are we conscious?
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Zašto smo svesni?
Zašto imamo te unutrašnje filmove?
Zašto imamo te unutrašnje filmove?
02:06
Why do we have these inner movies?
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Zašto nismo samo roboti
02:07
Why aren't we just robots
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02:10
who process all this input,
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koji obrađuju sve te ulazne podatke,
02:12
produce all that output,
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proizvode sve te izlazne podatke,
02:14
without experiencing the inner movie at all?
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bez doživljavanja unutrašnjeg filma?
02:18
Right now, nobody knows the answers
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U ovom trenutku, niko ne zna odgovore
02:20
to those questions.
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na ta pitanja.
02:22
I'm going to suggest that to integrate consciousness
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Ukazaću da,
za integrisanje svesti u nauku
02:26
into science, some radical ideas may be needed.
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mogu biti potrebne neke radikalne ideje.
02:31
Some people say a science of consciousness
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Neki ljudi kažu
da je nauka svesti nemoguća.
da je nauka svesti nemoguća.
02:33
is impossible.
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02:35
Science, by its nature, is objective.
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Nauka je, po svojoj prirodi, objektivna.
02:39
Consciousness, by its nature, is subjective.
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Svest je, po svojoj prirodi, subjektivna.
02:43
So there can never be a science of consciousness.
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Dakle, nikada ne može postojati
nauka o svesti.
nauka o svesti.
02:47
For much of the 20th century, that view held sway.
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Većim delom XX veka,
to gledište je bilo uzdrmano.
to gledište je bilo uzdrmano.
02:50
Psychologists studied behavior objectively,
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Psiholozi su proučavali ponašanje
objektivno,
objektivno,
02:54
neuroscientists studied the brain objectively,
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neurolozi su proučavali mozak objektivno,
02:58
and nobody even mentioned consciousness.
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a niko nije čak ni pomenuo svest.
03:02
Even 30 years ago, when TED got started,
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Čak i pre 30 godina, kada je TED započeo,
03:04
there was very little scientific work
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bilo je veoma malo naučnog rada
03:07
on consciousness.
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o svesti.
03:09
Now, about 20 years ago,
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Pre oko 20 godina,
03:11
all that began to change.
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sve to je počelo da se menja.
03:14
Neuroscientists like Francis Crick
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Neurolozi kao što je Frensis Krik
03:17
and physicists like Roger Penrose
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i fizičari poput Rodžera Penroza
03:20
said now is the time for science
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govorili su da je vreme da se nauka
03:22
to attack consciousness.
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lati svesti.
03:25
And since then, there's been a real explosion,
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I od tada, nastala je prava eksplozija,
03:27
a flowering of scientific work
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procvat naučnog rada
03:29
on consciousness.
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o svesti.
I taj rad je bio izvanredan.
I taj rad je bio izvanredan.
03:31
And this work has been wonderful. It's been great.
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Bio je sjajan.
03:33
But it also has some fundamental
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Ali takođe ima nekih
fundamentalnih ograničenja za sada.
fundamentalnih ograničenja za sada.
03:35
limitations so far.
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03:39
The centerpiece
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Središnje mesto
03:40
of the science of consciousness in recent years
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u nauci o svesti poslednjih godina
03:43
has been the search for correlations,
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je imala potraga za korelacijama,
03:45
correlations between certain areas of the brain
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korelacijama između
određenih oblasti mozga
određenih oblasti mozga
03:49
and certain states of consciousness.
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i određenih stanja svesti.
Videli smo neke od ovih radova
kod Nensi Kanvišer i izvrsnog rada
kod Nensi Kanvišer i izvrsnog rada
03:53
We saw some of this kind of work
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03:54
from Nancy Kanwisher and the wonderful work
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03:55
she presented just a few minutes ago.
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koji je predstavila
pre samo nekoliko minuta.
pre samo nekoliko minuta.
03:59
Now we understand much better, for example,
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Sada mnogo bolje razumemo, na primer,
04:02
the kinds of brain areas that go along with
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vrste moždanih oblasti koje idu uz
04:05
the conscious experience of seeing faces
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svesno iskustvo gledanja lica
04:08
or of feeling pain
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ili osećanja bola
04:11
or of feeling happy.
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ili osećanja sreće.
04:14
But this is still a science of correlations.
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Ali ovo je još uvek nauka korelacija.
04:16
It's not a science of explanations.
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To nije nauka objašnjenja.
04:20
We know that these brain areas
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Znamo da ove oblasti mozga
04:22
go along with certain kinds of conscious experience,
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idu uz određene vrste svesnog iskustva,
04:26
but we don't know why they do.
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ali ne znamo zašto je to tako.
04:30
I like to put this by saying
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Volim da to istaknem govoreći
04:32
that this kind of work from neuroscience
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da ova vrsta rada neurologije
04:36
is answering some of the questions
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odgovara na neka pitanja
04:37
we want answered about consciousness,
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o svesti na koja želimo odgovore,
04:39
the questions about what certain brain areas do
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pitanja o tome
šta određene moždane oblasti rade
i sa čim koreliraju.
i sa čim koreliraju.
04:43
and what they correlate with.
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04:45
But in a certain sense, those are the easy problems.
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Ali na neki način, to su laki problemi.
04:48
No knock on the neuroscientists.
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Prepad na neuronaučnike.
04:51
There are no truly easy
problems with consciousness.
problems with consciousness.
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Nema zaista lakih problema sa svešću.
04:53
But it doesn't address the real mystery
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Ali to se ne odnosi na stvarnu misteriju
04:58
at the core of this subject:
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u srži ovog predmeta:
05:00
why is it that all that physical processing in a brain
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zašto uopšte
sva psihička procesovanja u mozgu
sva psihička procesovanja u mozgu
05:04
should be accompanied by consciousness at all?
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treba da budu praćena svesnošću?
05:07
Why is there this inner subjective movie?
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Zašto postoji
ovaj unutrašnji subjektivni film?
ovaj unutrašnji subjektivni film?
05:10
Right now, we don't really have a bead on that.
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U ovom trenutku,
nemamo baš jasnu metu za to.
nemamo baš jasnu metu za to.
05:13
And you might say,
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I možete reći:
"Hajde samo
"Hajde samo
05:15
let's just give neuroscience a few years.
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da damo neurologiji
nekoliko godina.
nekoliko godina.
Ispostaviće se da je to
još jedna popularna pojava,
još jedna popularna pojava,
05:19
It'll turn out to be another emergent phenomenon
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05:23
like traffic jams, like hurricanes,
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kao što su zastoji u saobraćaju, uragani,
05:28
like life, and we'll figure it out.
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kao što je život, i otkrićemo ga.
05:30
The classical cases of emergence
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Klasični slučajevi pojavljivanja
05:32
are all cases of emergent behavior,
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su svi slučajevi pojavnog ponašanja,
05:36
how a traffic jam behaves,
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kako se saobraćajna gužva ponaša,
05:38
how a hurricane functions,
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kako uragan funkcioniše,
05:40
how a living organism reproduces
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kako se živi organizam razmožava
i prilagođava i metaboliše,
i prilagođava i metaboliše,
05:42
and adapts and metabolizes,
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sve su to pitanja
o objektivnom funkcionisanju.
o objektivnom funkcionisanju.
05:45
all questions about objective functioning.
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Možete to primeniti na ljudskom mozgu
pri objašnjavanju
pri objašnjavanju
05:48
You could apply that to the human brain
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05:51
in explaining some of the behaviors
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nekih ponašanja i funkcija
05:52
and the functions of the human brain
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ljudskog mozga kao pojavnog fenomena:
05:54
as emergent phenomena:
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kako hodamo,
05:55
how we walk, how we talk, how we play chess,
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govorimo, igramo šah,
06:00
all these questions about behavior.
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sva ta pitanja o ponašanju.
06:02
But when it comes to consciousness,
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Ali kada se radi o svesti,
06:04
questions about behavior
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pitanja o ponašanju
06:06
are among the easy problems.
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su među lakim problemima.
06:09
When it comes to the hard problem,
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Kada je u pitanju težak problem,
06:10
that's the question of why is it
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to je pitanje
06:13
that all this behavior
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zašto je sve to ponašanje
06:14
is accompanied by subjective experience?
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praćeno subjektivnim iskustvom?
I ovde, standardna paradigma
pojavnosti,
pojavnosti,
06:17
And here, the standard paradigm
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06:19
of emergence,
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čak i standardna paradigma neurologije,
06:21
even the standard paradigms of neuroscience,
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06:24
don't really, so far, have that much to say.
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nemaju zaista, za sada,
mnogo toga da kažu.
mnogo toga da kažu.
06:28
Now, I'm a scientific materialist at heart.
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Ja sam naučni materijalista u srcu.
06:32
I want a scientific theory of consciousness
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Želim naučnu teoriju svesti
06:36
that works,
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koja funkcioniše,
06:38
and for a long time, I banged my head
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i dugo vremena
sam udarao glavom o zid
sam udarao glavom o zid
06:41
against the wall
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tragajući za teorijom svesti
06:42
looking for a theory of consciousness
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06:44
in purely physical terms
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u čistim fizičkim terminima
06:46
that would work.
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koja bi funkcionisala.
06:47
But I eventually came to the conclusion
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Ali sam najzad došao do zaključka
da to prosto nije funkcionisalo
da to prosto nije funkcionisalo
06:49
that that just didn't work for systematic reasons.
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zbog sistematskih razloga.
06:53
It's a long story,
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Duga je to priča,
ali suštinska ideja
ali suštinska ideja
06:55
but the core idea is just that what you get
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je da ono što dobijate
iz potpuno redukcionističkih objašnjenja
iz potpuno redukcionističkih objašnjenja
06:58
from purely reductionist explanations
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07:00
in physical terms, in brain-based terms,
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u fizičkim terminima na osnovi mozga,
07:03
is stories about the functioning of a system,
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u pričama o funkcionisanju sistema,
07:05
its structure, its dynamics,
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njegove strukture, njegove dinamike,
07:07
the behavior it produces,
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ponašanja koje proizvodi,
07:09
great for solving the easy problems —
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sjajno za rešavanje lakih problema --
07:11
how we behave, how we function —
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kako se ponašamo, kako funkcionišemo -
07:14
but when it comes to subjective experience —
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ali kada se radi
o subjektivnom iskustvu -
o subjektivnom iskustvu -
07:17
why does all this feel like
something from the inside? —
something from the inside? —
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zašto sve to deluje kao nešto iznutra? -
07:21
that's something fundamentally new,
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to je nešto fundamentalno novo,
i to je uvek dodatno pitanje.
07:23
and it's always a further question.
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07:27
So I think we're at a kind of impasse here.
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Tako da mislimo da smo ovde u ćorsokaku.
07:32
We've got this wonderful, great chain of explanation,
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Imamo te divne,
velike sisteme objašnjenja,
velike sisteme objašnjenja,
07:35
we're used to it, where physics explains chemistry,
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navikli smo na njih,
gde fizika objašnjava hemiju,
gde fizika objašnjava hemiju,
07:39
chemistry explains biology,
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hemija objašnjava biologiju,
07:42
biology explains parts of psychology.
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biologija objašnjava delove psihologije.
07:46
But consciousness
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Ali svest
07:48
doesn't seem to fit into this picture.
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izgleda da se ne uklapa u ovu sliku.
07:50
On the one hand, it's a datum
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Sa jedne strane, činjenica je
07:52
that we're conscious.
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da smo svesni.
07:54
On the other hand, we don't know how
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Sa druge strane, ne znamo kako
da to prilagodimo
da to prilagodimo
07:55
to accommodate it into our
scientific view of the world.
scientific view of the world.
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našem naučnom pogledu na svet.
07:59
So I think consciousness right now
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Mislim da je svest u ovom trenutku
08:01
is a kind of anomaly,
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vrsta anomalije,
vrsta koju moramo da integrišemo
vrsta koju moramo da integrišemo
08:04
one that we need to integrate
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u naš pogled na svet,
ali još uvek ne vidimo kako.
ali još uvek ne vidimo kako.
08:06
into our view of the world, but we don't yet see how.
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Suočeni sa ovakvom anomalijom,
radikalne ideje mogu biti potrebne,
radikalne ideje mogu biti potrebne,
08:10
Faced with an anomaly like this,
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08:12
radical ideas may be needed,
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i mislim da možda imamo ideju ili dve
08:15
and I think that we may need one or two ideas
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08:18
that initially seem crazy
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koje se najpre čine ludim
08:20
before we can come to grips with consciousness
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pre nego što se možemo
uhvatiti u koštac sa svešću
uhvatiti u koštac sa svešću
08:23
scientifically.
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naučno.
08:25
Now, there are a few candidates
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Postoji nekoliko kandidata
08:27
for what those crazy ideas might be.
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za to koje to lude ideje mogu biti.
08:29
My friend Dan Dennett, who's here today, has one.
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Moj prijatelj Den Denet,
koji je danas ovde, ima jednu takvu.
koji je danas ovde, ima jednu takvu.
08:34
His crazy idea is that there is no hard problem
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Njegova luda ideja je
da nema teških problema svesti.
da nema teških problema svesti.
08:36
of consciousness.
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Cela ideja
o unutrašnjem subjektivnom filmu
o unutrašnjem subjektivnom filmu
08:38
The whole idea of the inner subjective movie
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08:41
involves a kind of illusion or confusion.
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podrazumeva vrstu iluzije ili zbrke.
Zapravo, sve što treba da uradimo
Zapravo, sve što treba da uradimo
08:46
Actually, all we've got to do is explain
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je da objasnimo
objektivne funkcije, ponašanja mozga,
objektivne funkcije, ponašanja mozga,
08:48
the objective functions, the behaviors of the brain,
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i onda smo objasnili sve
08:51
and then we've explained everything
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08:53
that needs to be explained.
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što treba da bude objašnjeno.
08:55
Well I say, more power to him.
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Pa, više moći za njega.
08:58
That's the kind of radical idea
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2014
To je vrsta radikalne ideje
09:00
that we need to explore
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gde treba da istražujemo
09:02
if you want to have a purely reductionist
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ako želite da imate
sasvim redukcionističke
sasvim redukcionističke
09:04
brain-based theory of consciousness.
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3550
teorije o svesti zasnovane na mozgu.
09:08
At the same time, for me and for many other people,
189
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2071
Istovremeno, za mene i mnoge druge,
09:10
that view is a bit too close to simply
190
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1827
taj pogled je malo previše blizu
09:12
denying the datum of consciousness
191
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2021
prostom poricanju činjenice svesnosti
09:14
to be satisfactory.
192
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da bi bila zadovoljavajuća.
09:15
So I go in a different direction.
193
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Tako da idem u drugačijem pravcu.
09:18
In the time remaining,
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Za preostalo vreme,
09:19
I want to explore two crazy ideas
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želim da istražim dve lude ideje
09:22
that I think may have some promise.
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3717
za koje mislim da obećavaju.
09:26
The first crazy idea
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Prva luda ideja
je da je svest fundamentalna.
je da je svest fundamentalna.
09:28
is that consciousness is fundamental.
198
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4625
Fizičari ponekad uzimaju
neke aspekte univerzuma
neke aspekte univerzuma
09:32
Physicists sometimes take
some aspects of the universe
some aspects of the universe
199
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09:35
as fundamental building blocks:
200
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2160
kao fundamentalne temelje:
09:37
space and time and mass.
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3749
prostor i vreme i masu.
09:41
They postulate fundamental laws governing them,
202
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Oni postuliraju fundamentalne zakone
koji upravljaju njima,
koji upravljaju njima,
09:45
like the laws of gravity or of quantum mechanics.
203
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3890
kao što su zakoni gravitacije
ili kvantne mehanike.
ili kvantne mehanike.
Ova fundamentalna svojstva i zakoni
09:49
These fundamental properties and laws
204
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2310
09:51
aren't explained in terms of anything more basic.
205
579470
3217
nisu objašnjena u pogledu
bilo čega drugog bazičnijeg.
bilo čega drugog bazičnijeg.
09:54
Rather, they're taken as primitive,
206
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2740
Umesto toga, uzeti su kao primitivi,
09:57
and you build up the world from there.
207
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3379
i odatle gradite svet.
10:00
Now sometimes, the list of fundamentals expands.
208
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Ponekad, lista fundamentalnih stvari
se proširuje.
se proširuje.
10:05
In the 19th century, Maxwell figured out
209
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2457
U 19. veku, Maksvel je otkrio
10:08
that you can't explain electromagnetic phenomena
210
596362
3168
da ne možete objasniti
elektomagnetni fenomen
elektomagnetni fenomen
10:11
in terms of the existing fundamentals —
211
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2351
u odnosu na postojeće fundamentalnosti -
10:13
space, time, mass, Newton's laws —
212
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3069
prostor, vreme, masu, Njutnove zakone -
10:16
so he postulated fundamental laws
213
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2571
pa je postulirao fundamentalne zakone
10:19
of electromagnetism
214
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1814
elekromagnetizma
10:21
and postulated electric charge
215
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2411
i postulirao je električni napon
10:23
as a fundamental element
216
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1768
kao fundamentalni element
10:25
that those laws govern.
217
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2959
kojim ti zakoni upravljaju.
10:28
I think that's the situation we're in
218
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3283
Mislim da je to situacija u kojoj smo
10:31
with consciousness.
219
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1610
sa svešću.
10:33
If you can't explain consciousness
220
621366
2485
Ako ne možete objasniti svest
10:35
in terms of the existing fundamentals —
221
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2418
u odnosu na postojeće fundamentalnosti -
10:38
space, time, mass, charge —
222
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2671
prostor, vreme, masu, napon -
10:40
then as a matter of logic,
you need to expand the list.
you need to expand the list.
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3430
onda, logično, morate da proširite listu.
Prirodna stvar koju treba uraditi
jeste postulirati samu svest
jeste postulirati samu svest
10:44
The natural thing to do is to postulate
224
632370
2476
10:46
consciousness itself as something fundamental,
225
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3256
kao nešto fundamentalno,
10:50
a fundamental building block of nature.
226
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3032
fundamentalni temelj prirode.
10:53
This doesn't mean you suddenly
can't do science with it.
can't do science with it.
227
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2968
To ne znači da se odjednom
ne možete baviti naukom bez nje.
ne možete baviti naukom bez nje.
10:56
This opens up the way for you to do science with it.
228
644102
3598
Ovo stvara način
da se bavite naukom sa njom.
da se bavite naukom sa njom.
Ono što nam je zatim potrebno
10:59
What we then need is to study
229
647700
1904
je da proučavamo
fundamentalne zakone
fundamentalne zakone
11:01
the fundamental laws governing consciousness,
230
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2953
koji upravljaju svešću,
11:04
the laws that connect consciousness
231
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2380
zakone koji povezuju svest
11:06
to other fundamentals: space, time, mass,
232
654937
2801
sa drugim fundamentalnostima:
prostorom, vremenom, masom,
prostorom, vremenom, masom,
11:09
physical processes.
233
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2936
fizičkim procesima.
11:12
Physicists sometimes say
234
660674
2182
Fizičari ponekad kažu
11:14
that we want fundamental laws so simple
235
662856
2880
da želimo tako jednostavne
fundamentalne zakone
fundamentalne zakone
11:17
that we could write them on the front of a t-shirt.
236
665736
3802
da bismo ih mogli napisati
na prednjoj strani majice.
na prednjoj strani majice.
11:21
Well I think something like that is the situation
237
669538
1721
Mislim da je tome slična i situacija
11:23
we're in with consciousness.
238
671259
1868
u kojoj smo sa svešću.
11:25
We want to find fundamental laws so simple
239
673127
2750
Želimo da pronađemo
tako proste fundamentalne zakone
tako proste fundamentalne zakone
da ih možemo napisati
na prednjoj strani majice.
na prednjoj strani majice.
11:27
we could write them on the front of a t-shirt.
240
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2087
11:29
We don't know what those laws are yet,
241
677964
1575
Još uvek ne znamo koji su to zakoni,
11:31
but that's what we're after.
242
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4027
ali to je ono za čime tragamo.
11:35
The second crazy idea
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2417
Druga luda ideja
11:37
is that consciousness might be universal.
244
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3478
je da bi svest mogla biti univerzalna.
11:41
Every system might have some degree
245
689461
3061
Svaki sistem može imati izvestan stepen
11:44
of consciousness.
246
692522
3725
svesnosti.
Ovo gledište
se ponekad naziva panpsihizmom:
se ponekad naziva panpsihizmom:
11:48
This view is sometimes called panpsychism:
247
696247
2961
11:51
pan for all, psych for mind,
248
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3002
pan za sve, psiha za dušu,
11:54
every system is conscious,
249
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1771
svaki sistem je svestan,
11:55
not just humans, dogs, mice, flies,
250
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4247
ne samo ljudi, psi, miševi, muve,
12:00
but even Rob Knight's microbes,
251
708228
2577
već čak i mikrobi Roba Najta,
12:02
elementary particles.
252
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2187
elementarne čestice.
12:04
Even a photon has some degree of consciousness.
253
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2713
Čak i foton ima izvestan stepen svesnosti.
12:07
The idea is not that photons are intelligent
254
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3779
Ideja nije u tome
da su fotoni inteligentni
da su fotoni inteligentni
12:11
or thinking.
255
719484
1077
ili da misle.
12:12
It's not that a photon
256
720561
1430
Foton nije razoren strepnjom
12:13
is wracked with angst
257
721991
1445
jer misli: "Aaa, ja uvek zujim okolo
skoro brzinom svestlosti.
skoro brzinom svestlosti.
12:15
because it's thinking, "Aww, I'm always
buzzing around near the speed of light.
buzzing around near the speed of light.
258
723436
3292
12:18
I never get to slow down and smell the roses."
259
726728
2992
Nikada ne stignem da usporim
i pomirišem ruže."
i pomirišem ruže."
12:21
No, not like that.
260
729720
2144
Ne, nije tako.
12:23
But the thought is maybe photons might have
261
731864
3048
Ali misli se da bi fotoni
možda mogli imati
možda mogli imati
12:26
some element of raw, subjective feeling,
262
734912
2623
neke elemente sirovog,
subjektivnog osećaja,
subjektivnog osećaja,
12:29
some primitive precursor to consciousness.
263
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4152
nekog primitivnog prethodnika svesti.
12:33
This may sound a bit kooky to you.
264
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2854
Ovo vam može zvučati pomalo čudno.
12:36
I mean, why would anyone think such a crazy thing?
265
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2783
Mislim, zašto bi iko mislio
nešto tako suludo?
nešto tako suludo?
12:39
Some motivation comes from the first crazy idea,
266
747324
3560
Nešto motivacije potiče
iz prve lude ideje,
iz prve lude ideje,
12:42
that consciousness is fundamental.
267
750884
2146
da je svest fundamentalna.
12:45
If it's fundamental, like space and time and mass,
268
753030
4375
Ako je fundamentalna,
kao prostor i vreme i masa,
kao prostor i vreme i masa,
prirodno je pretpostaviti
da takođe može biti i univerzalna,
da takođe može biti i univerzalna,
12:49
it's natural to suppose that it might be universal too,
269
757405
2665
12:52
the way they are.
270
760070
1900
onako kako su i oni.
12:53
It's also worth noting that although the idea
271
761970
1949
Takođe je vredno pomena da iako se ideja
12:55
seems counterintuitive to us,
272
763919
2024
nama čini kontraintuitivnom,
12:57
it's much less counterintuitive to people
273
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2744
mnogo je manje kontraintuitivna ljudima
13:00
from different cultures,
274
768687
1731
iz drugačijih kultura,
gde se čini da je ljudski um mnogo više
13:02
where the human mind is seen as much more
275
770418
1520
13:03
continuous with nature.
276
771938
3072
u skladu sa prirodom.
13:07
A deeper motivation comes from the idea that
277
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3734
Dublja motivacija potiče od ideje da
13:10
perhaps the most simple and powerful way
278
778744
2009
možda najjednostavniji i najsnažniji način
13:12
to find fundamental laws connecting consciousness
279
780753
2234
za pronalaženje fundamentalnih zakona
13:14
to physical processing
280
782987
1980
koji povezuju svest sa fizičkim procesima
13:16
is to link consciousness to information.
281
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3095
jeste povezati svest sa informacijom.
13:20
Wherever there's information processing,
282
788062
2011
Gde god da se obrađuju informacije
13:22
there's consciousness.
283
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1065
tu je svest.
13:23
Complex information processing, like in a human,
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2540
Kompleksna obrada informacija,
kao kod ljudi,
kao kod ljudi,
13:25
complex consciousness.
285
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1532
kompleksna svest.
13:27
Simple information processing,
286
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2129
Jednostavna obrada informacija,
13:29
simple consciousness.
287
797349
1958
jednostavna svest.
13:31
A really exciting thing is in recent years
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2331
Zaista uzbudljiva stvar poslednjih godina:
13:33
a neuroscientist, Giulio Tononi,
289
801638
3265
neurolog Đulio Tononi
je usvojio ovu vrstu teorije
13:36
has taken this kind of theory
290
804903
1243
13:38
and developed it rigorously
291
806146
2075
i rigorozno je razvio
13:40
with a mathematical theory.
292
808221
1849
matematičkom teorijom.
13:42
He has a mathematical measure
293
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1517
On ima matematičku meru
13:43
of information integration
294
811587
1730
integracije informacija
13:45
which he calls phi,
295
813317
1919
koju zove fi,
13:47
measuring the amount of information
296
815236
1607
mereći količinu informacija
13:48
integrated in a system.
297
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1620
integrisanih u sistemu.
13:50
And he supposes that phi goes along
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2369
I pretpostavlja da fi ide uporedo
13:52
with consciousness.
299
820832
1438
sa svesnošću.
Tako da u ljudskom mozgu,
neverovatno velika
neverovatno velika
13:54
So in a human brain,
300
822270
1321
13:55
incredibly large amount of information integration,
301
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2519
količina integracije informacija,
13:58
high degree of phi,
302
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2034
visok stepen fi,
14:00
a whole lot of consciousness.
303
828144
1549
mnogo svesti.
Kod miša, srednji stepen
14:01
In a mouse, medium degree
of information integration,
of information integration,
304
829693
3693
integracije informacija,
još uvek značajno,
još uvek značajno,
14:05
still pretty significant,
305
833386
1019
14:06
pretty serious amount of consciousness.
306
834405
2025
ozbiljna količina svesnosti.
14:08
But as you go down to worms,
307
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2265
Ali kako idete niže ka crvima,
14:10
microbes, particles,
308
838695
3477
mikrobima, česticama,
14:14
the amount of phi falls off.
309
842172
1534
količina fi opada.
Količina integracije informacija opada,
ali i dalje nije nula.
ali i dalje nije nula.
14:15
The amount of information integration falls off,
310
843706
2433
14:18
but it's still non-zero.
311
846139
1448
14:19
On Tononi's theory,
312
847587
1939
Po Tononijevoj teoriji,
14:21
there's still going to be a non-zero degree
313
849526
2207
još će biti stepena svesti iznad nule.
14:23
of consciousness.
314
851733
1829
U suštini, on predlaže
fundamentalni zakon svesti:
fundamentalni zakon svesti:
14:25
In effect, he's proposing a fundamental law
315
853562
2539
14:28
of consciousness: high phi, high consciousness.
316
856101
3384
visok fi, visoka svesnost.
14:31
Now, I don't know if this theory is right,
317
859485
2622
Sad, ne znam
da li je ova teorija ispravna,
da li je ova teorija ispravna,
14:34
but it's actually perhaps the leading theory right now
318
862107
3211
ali to je zapravo
možda vodeća teorija sada
možda vodeća teorija sada
14:37
in the science of consciousness,
319
865318
1386
u nauci o svesti,
14:38
and it's been used to integrate a whole range
320
866704
2231
i korišćena je da integriše veliki opseg
14:40
of scientific data,
321
868935
2387
naučnih podataka,
i ima lepo svojstvo
da je zapravo dovoljno prosta
da je zapravo dovoljno prosta
14:43
and it does have a nice property
that it is in fact simple enough
that it is in fact simple enough
322
871322
2243
14:45
you can write it on the front of a t-shirt.
323
873565
3495
da je možete napisati
na prednjoj strani majice.
na prednjoj strani majice.
14:49
Another final motivation is that
324
877060
2625
Još jedna konačna motivacija
14:51
panpsychism might help us to integrate
325
879685
2051
je da bi nam panpsihizam
mogao pomoći da integrišemo
mogao pomoći da integrišemo
14:53
consciousness into the physical world.
326
881736
3214
svest u fizički svet.
14:56
Physicists and philosophers have often observed
327
884950
3177
Fizičari i filozofi su često primećivali
15:00
that physics is curiously abstract.
328
888127
2441
da je fizika neobično apstraktna.
15:02
It describes the structure of reality
329
890568
2148
Opisuje strukturu realnosti
15:04
using a bunch of equations,
330
892716
2084
koristeći gomilu jednačina,
ali ne govori nam
ali ne govori nam
15:06
but it doesn't tell us about the reality
331
894800
3024
o stvarnosti
koja leži ispod toga.
koja leži ispod toga.
15:09
that underlies it.
332
897824
1568
15:11
As Stephen Hawking puts it,
333
899392
1897
Kako Stiven Hokin kaže,
15:13
what puts the fire into the equations?
334
901289
4054
šta stavlja vatru u jednačine?
15:17
Well, on the panpsychist view,
335
905343
2618
Pa, sa gledišta panpsihiste,
15:19
you can leave the equations of physics as they are,
336
907961
2639
možete ostaviti jednačine fizike
takvim kakve jesu,
takvim kakve jesu,
15:22
but you can take them to be describing
337
910600
1564
ali možete ih uzeti da opisuju
15:24
the flux of consciousness.
338
912164
1674
tok svesti.
15:25
That's what physics really is ultimately doing,
339
913838
2038
To je ono što fizika zapravo
15:27
describing the flux of consciousness.
340
915876
2329
naposletku radi, opisuje tok svesti.
15:30
On this view, it's consciousness
341
918205
1653
Prema ovom gledištu, svest je ta
15:31
that puts the fire into the equations.
342
919858
4246
koja stavlja vatru u jednačine.
15:36
On that view, consciousness doesn't dangle
343
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1660
Prema tom gledištu, svest ne visi
15:37
outside the physical world
344
925764
1676
izvan fizičkog sveta
15:39
as some kind of extra.
345
927440
1418
kao neka vrsta dodatka.
15:40
It's there right at its heart.
346
928858
3456
Ona je baš tu u njegovom srcu.
15:44
This view, I think, the panpsychist view,
347
932314
2874
Ovo gledište, ja mislim,
panpsihističko gledište
panpsihističko gledište
15:47
has the potential to transfigure our relationship
348
935188
3301
ima potencijal da preokrene naš odnos
15:50
to nature,
349
938489
1495
prema prirodi,
15:51
and it may have some pretty serious social
350
939984
2235
i može imati neke
prilično ozbiljne socijalne
prilično ozbiljne socijalne
15:54
and ethical consequences.
351
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3693
i etičke posledice.
15:57
Some of these may be counterintuitive.
352
945912
2159
Neke od njih mogu biti kontraintuitivne.
16:00
I used to think I shouldn't eat anything
353
948071
3071
Nekada sam mislio
da ne treba da jedem ništa
da ne treba da jedem ništa
16:03
which is conscious,
354
951142
2462
što je svesno,
16:05
so therefore I should be vegetarian.
355
953604
2604
pa bi prema tome
trebalo da budem vegetarijanac.
trebalo da budem vegetarijanac.
Sad, ako ste panpsihista
i usvajate to gledište,
i usvajate to gledište,
16:08
Now, if you're a panpsychist and you take that view,
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16:10
you're going to go very hungry.
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veoma ćete ogladneti.
Dakle mislim da, kada razmislite o tome,
ovo teži da preobrati vaša gledišta,
ovo teži da preobrati vaša gledišta,
16:13
So I think when you think about it,
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16:14
this tends to transfigure your views,
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16:16
whereas what matters for ethical purposes
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imajući u vidu da ono što je važno
16:19
and moral considerations,
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za etičke svrhe
i moralna razmatranja,
i moralna razmatranja,
16:20
not so much the fact of consciousness,
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nije toliko činjenica o svesnosti,
16:23
but the degree and the complexity of consciousness.
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već stepen i kompleksnost svesnosti.
16:27
It's also natural to ask about consciousness
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Takođe je prirodno pitati se o svesti
16:29
in other systems, like computers.
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u drugim sistemima, kao što su kompjuteri.
16:32
What about the artificially intelligent system
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Šta je sa sistemom veštačke inteligencije
16:34
in the movie "Her," Samantha?
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u filmu "Ona", Samanta?
16:37
Is she conscious?
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Da li je ona svesna?
16:39
Well, if you take the informational,
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Pa, ako uzmete informaciono,
16:40
panpsychist view,
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panpsihističko gledište,
16:41
she certainly has complicated information processing
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ona svakako ima
komplikovanu obradu
komplikovanu obradu
16:45
and integration,
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i integraciju informacija,
16:46
so the answer is very likely yes, she is conscious.
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pa je vrlo verovatno da je odgovor da,
ona je svesna.
ona je svesna.
16:49
If that's right, it raises pretty serious
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Ako je to tačno,
to pokreće prilično ozbiljna
to pokreće prilično ozbiljna
16:52
ethical issues about both the ethics
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etička pitanja,
kako o etici razvijanja
inteligentnih kompjuterskih sistema,
inteligentnih kompjuterskih sistema,
16:54
of developing intelligent computer systems
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16:58
and the ethics of turning them off.
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tako i o etici njihovog isključivanja.
17:00
Finally, you might ask about the consciousness
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Konačno, možete se zapitati
17:03
of whole groups,
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o svesti čitavih grupa,
17:05
the planet.
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planete.
17:07
Does Canada have its own consciousness?
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Da li Kanada ima svoju sopstvenu svest?
17:10
Or at a more local level,
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Ili više na lokalnom nivou,
da li integrisana grupa
kao što je publika na TED konferenciji,
kao što je publika na TED konferenciji,
17:12
does an integrated group
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17:13
like the audience at a TED conference,
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17:15
are we right now having a
collective TED consciousness,
collective TED consciousness,
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da li mi upravo sada imamo
kolektivnu TED svest,
kolektivnu TED svest,
unutrašnji film
za ovu kolektivnu TED grupu
za ovu kolektivnu TED grupu
17:19
an inner movie
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17:20
for this collective TED group
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koji se razlikuje od unutrašnjih filmova
17:23
which is distinct from the inner movies
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svakog od naših delova?
17:24
of each of our parts?
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17:26
I don't know the answer to that question,
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Ne znam odgovor na to pitanje,
ali mislim
ali mislim
17:28
but I think it's at least one
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da bar njega vredi uzeti za ozbiljno.
17:29
worth taking seriously.
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17:32
Okay, so this panpsychist vision,
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Okej, dakle ova panpsihistička vizija,
17:34
it is a radical one,
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ona je radikalna,
17:36
and I don't know that it's correct.
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i ne znam da li je ispravna.
17:38
I'm actually more confident about
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Zapravo sam mnogo sigurniji
17:40
the first crazy idea,
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u vezi sa prvom ludom idejom,
da je svest fundamentalna,
17:41
that consciousness is fundamental,
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17:44
than about the second one,
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nego drugom,
17:45
that it's universal.
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da je univerzalna.
17:48
I mean, the view raises any number of questions,
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Mislim, gledište pokreće
veliki broj pitanja,
veliki broj pitanja,
17:50
has any number of challenges,
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ima veliki broj izazova,
17:51
like how do those little bits
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kao što je kako oni mali delovi
17:53
of consciousness add up
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svesti dodaju
do kompleksne svesnosti
koju znamo i volimo.
koju znamo i volimo.
17:54
to the kind of complex consciousness
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17:57
we know and love.
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Ako možemo odgovoriti na ta pitanja,
17:59
If we can answer those questions,
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onda mislim da ćemo biti na dobrom putu
ka ozbiljnoj teoriji svesti.
ka ozbiljnoj teoriji svesti.
18:00
then I think we're going to be well on our way
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18:02
to a serious theory of consciousness.
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18:05
If not, well, this is the hardest problem perhaps
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Ako ne, pa, ovo je možda najteži problem
18:08
in science and philosophy.
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u nauci i filozofiji.
18:10
We can't expect to solve it overnight.
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Ne možemo očekivati
da će se rešiti preko noći.
da će se rešiti preko noći.
Ali mislim da ćemo ga shvatiti na kraju.
18:14
But I do think we're going to figure it out eventually.
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18:17
Understanding consciousness is a real key, I think,
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Razumeti svest je pravi ključ, ja mislim,
18:20
both to understanding the universe
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kako za razumevanje univerzuma
18:23
and to understanding ourselves.
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tako i za razumevanje nas samih.
18:25
It may just take the right crazy idea.
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Možda je samo potrebna prava suluda ideja.
18:28
Thank you.
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Hvala vam.
18:30
(Applause)
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(Aplauz)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
David Chalmers - PhilosopherIn his work, David Chalmers explores the “hard problem of consciousness" -- the quest to explain our subjective experience.
Why you should listen
David Chalmers is a philosopher at the Australian National University and New York University. He works in philosophy of mind and in related areas of philosophy and cognitive science. While he's especially known for his theories on consciousness, he's also interested (and has extensively published) in all sorts of other issues in the foundations of cognitive science, the philosophy of language, metaphysics and epistemology.
Chalmers placed the "hard problem" of consciousness firmly on the philosophical map. He famously challenges materialist conceptions of mind, arguing for an "explanatory gap" between our brains’ physical properties and our minds’ qualia. Elsewhere he has championed the notion of the "extended mind," which argues that the mind is not confined to skin or skull, but plausibly may extend beyond them.
David Chalmers | Speaker | TED.com