TEDxHogeschoolUtrecht
Sebastian Deterding: What your designs say about you
塞巴斯蒂安·德特丁： 你的设计如何描述你
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你设计的椅子传达了你的怎样的价值观？设计师塞巴斯蒂安·德特丁将向我们展示我们身边物品的设计是如何反映了设计者对道德和美好生活的想象。
Sebastian Deterding - Designer
Sebastian Deterding is an interface designer who thinks deeply about persuasive and gameful design. Full bio
Sebastian Deterding is an interface designer who thinks deeply about persuasive and gameful design. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:16
We are today talking about moral persuasion.
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我们今天要谈的是道德引导
00:18
What is moral and immoral
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当我们利用手段或者计谋
00:20
in trying to change people's behaviors
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试图改变别人的行为时
00:22
by using technology and using design?
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什么是道德的，什么是不道德的？
00:25
And I don't know what you expect,
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我不知道你有什么想法
00:27
but when I was thinking about that issue,
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但是，当我想到这个问题时
00:29
I early on realized
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我很早就意识到
00:30
what I'm not able to give you are answers.
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我不可能给出一个答案
00:33
I'm not able to tell you what is moral or immoral
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我不可能告诉你们什么是道德的，什么是不道德的
00:36
because we're living in a pluralist society.
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因为我们生活在一个多元化的社会当中
00:38
My values can be radically different
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我的价值观可能迥异于
00:41
from your values.
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你的价值观
00:43
Which means that what I consider moral or immoral based on that
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这也就是说基于我的价值观所得的道德或者不道德
00:46
might not necessarily be what you consider moral or immoral.
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并不一定与你的道德标准一样
00:50
But I also realized that there is one thing that I could give you.
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但是我也清楚，有一件事我能给你们
00:53
And that is what this guy behind me gave the world --
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这也是我身后这位留给世界的
00:56
Socrates.
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他是苏格拉底
00:57
It is questions.
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那就是疑问
00:58
What I can do and what I would like to do with you
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我能做的，以及我要和你们一起做的就是
01:01
is give you, like that initial question,
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给你们，就像刚开头那个问题，
01:03
a set of questions
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经由一系列的问题
01:04
to figure out for yourself,
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找出自己的答案
01:06
layer by layer,
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一层一层的探讨
01:08
like peeling an onion,
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就像剥洋葱一样
01:10
getting at the core of what you believe
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剥到最后你就会得到你所相信的
01:12
is moral or immoral persuasion.
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道德与不道德的价值观
01:16
And I'd like to do that with a couple of examples
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我想用几个科技面的例子来说明
01:18
of technologies where people have used game elements
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其中，人们利用了比赛的元素
01:21
to get people to do things.
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来让别人去做事
01:25
So it's a first very simple, a very obvious question
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首先是一个简单而且显而易见的问题
01:28
I would like to give you:
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我要问的是
01:30
What are your intentions if you are designing something?
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当你在盘算某件事的时候，你的意图是什么？
01:33
And obviously intentions are not the only thing,
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很明显，意图并不是唯一需要考虑的
01:36
so here is another example for one of these applications.
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所以，在各种运用之中，我要举另一个例子
01:39
There are a couple of these kinds of eco-dashboards right now --
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现在有一些这样的环保仪表盘
01:42
so dashboards built into cars
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这样的仪表盘被装在了车上
01:44
which try to motivate you to drive more fuel efficiently.
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从而促使你以更节能的方式去驾驶
01:47
This here is Nissan's MyLeaf,
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这是日产的环保驾驶指示器
01:48
where your driving behavior is compared
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通过它，你的驾驶行为将会与
01:51
with the driving behavior of other people,
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其他人的驾驶行为进行比较
01:52
so you can compete for who drives around
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这样，你就可以和其他驾驶者竞争
01:54
the most fuel efficiently.
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看谁最节能
01:56
And these things are very effective, it turns out,
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结果证明这样的方式相当的有效
01:58
so effective that they motivate people
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它的效力之大，以至于人们
02:01
to engage in unsafe driving behaviors --
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会采取一些不安全的驾驶方法
02:03
like not stopping on a red headlight.
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比如说遇红灯也不停
02:04
Because that way you have to stop and restart the engine,
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因为一停下来你就要关闭再重新启动发动机
02:07
and that would use quite some fuel, wouldn't it?
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这样一来会消耗不少燃料，对吧？
02:11
So despite this being a very well-intended application,
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所以尽管这种应用的意图是良好的
02:15
obviously there was a side effect of that.
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但很明显还存在一定的副作用
02:17
And here's another example for one of these side effects.
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关于副作用，还有另外一个例子
02:20
Commendable:
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Commendable网站：
02:21
a site that allows parents to give their kids little badges
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通过这个网站，父母们可以给孩子颁发小勋章
02:25
for doing the things that parents want their kids to do --
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只要孩子们做了父母想要他们做的事
02:27
like tying their shoes.
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比如说系鞋带
02:28
And at first that sounds very nice,
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乍一听，这东西不错
02:31
very benign, well intended.
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非常有益，用意也很好
02:33
But it turns out, if you look into research on people's mindset,
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结果，你若是看了关于人们思维方式的研究，
02:36
that caring about outcomes,
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就会发现追求结果
02:38
caring about public recognition,
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在意公众认可
02:40
caring about these kinds of public tokens of recognition
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在意这样的代表公众认可的勋章
02:44
is not necessarily very helpful
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其实对于长期的心理健康来说
02:46
for your long-term psychological well-being.
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并没有什么帮助
02:48
It's better if you care about learning something.
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更好的方式是在意学到了什么
02:51
It's better when you care about yourself
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更好的方式是在意你自己
02:53
than how you appear in front of other people.
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而不是在意你在别人面前是什么样的
02:56
So that kind of motivational tool that is used
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所以这样的一种激励工具
02:59
actually in and of itself
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就其本身来看
03:01
has a long-term side effect
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是有长期的副作用的
03:03
in that every time we use a technology
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每一次当我们采取一些方法诸如
03:05
that uses something like public recognition or status,
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利用公众认可或者公众地位的时候
03:08
we're actually positively endorsing this
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实际上我们是在积极认可这种方法
03:11
as a good and a normal thing to care about --
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把它们塑造成了我们理应去在意的事
03:14
that way, possibly having a detrimental effect
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这样一来，可能对我们整个文化族群
03:17
on the long-term psychological well-being of ourselves as a culture.
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长期心理健康会有不良的影响
03:21
So that's a second, very obvious question:
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所以，第二个显而易见的问题就是：
03:23
What are the effects of what you're doing?
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你在做的事有什么样的影响？
03:26
The effects that you're having with the device,
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你所使用的这个装置所产生的影响
03:28
like less fuel,
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像节能
03:29
as well as the effects of the actual tools you're using
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或是，你所使用切实的方法
03:32
to get people to do things --
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让别人去做某件事情
03:34
public recognition.
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比如公众认可，又会有什么影响
03:36
Now is that all -- intention, effect?
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意图，影响，这就是全部了吗？
03:39
Well there are some technologies
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实际上，有些技术
03:40
which obviously combine both.
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显然两者兼具
03:42
Both good long-term and short-term effects
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长短期看皆好的影响
03:44
and a positive intention like Fred Stutzman's Freedom,
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以及良好的意图，比如像弗雷德•斯图兹曼的“自由者”软件
03:47
where the whole point of that application
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这款软件的意图就在于
03:49
is, well, we're usually so bombarded
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这样说吧，我们经常受到别人电话
03:52
with calls and requests by other people,
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和各种请求的狂轰滥炸
03:53
with this device you can shut off the Internet connectivity
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有了这个软件我们可以让电脑
03:56
of your PC of choice for a preset amount of time
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在预设的一段时间内断开网络连接
03:59
to actually get some work done.
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这样你就有时间搞定其它事
04:02
And I think most of us will agree,
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我想大多数人都会认同
04:03
well that's something well intended
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这个东西的意图是好的
04:04
and also has good consequences.
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结果也不错
04:07
In the words of Michel Foucault,
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用米歇尔·福柯的话说
04:09
"It is a technology of the self."
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“这是满足自我的一种科技”
04:11
It is a technology that empowers the individual
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这样的一种技术手段能赋予个人
04:13
to determine its own life course,
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决定自己生活方式的权力
04:16
to shape itself.
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塑造自己的权力
04:17
But the problem is,
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但是问题是
04:19
as Foucault points out,
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福柯也指出了
04:20
that every technology of the self
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每一种满足自我的方法
04:22
has a technology of domination as its flip side.
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都会有一个对立的控制手段相伴
04:25
As you see in today's modern liberal democracies,
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正如大家所见，如今的现代自由民主国家中
04:30
the society, the state,
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社会，国家
04:32
not only allows us to determine our self, to shape our self,
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不仅允许我们定义自我，塑造自我
04:36
it also demands it of us.
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它也要求我们做到这些
04:38
It demands that we optimize ourselves,
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它要求我们完善自我
04:40
that we control ourselves,
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要求我们控制自我
04:42
that we self-manage continuously
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要求我们时刻管理自我
04:44
because that's the only way
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因为只有这样
04:46
in which such a liberal society works.
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一个自由的社会才能运作
04:49
These technologies want us to stay in the game
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这些方法想要把我们限定在
04:53
that society has devised for us.
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社会早已为我们设定好了的规则之中
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They want us to fit in even better.
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他们希望我们能更好的融入
04:58
They want us to optimize ourselves to fit in.
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他们希望我们完善自我以融入这个社会
05:01
Now I don't say that is necessarily a bad thing.
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我并不想说这是一件坏事
05:05
I just think that this example
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我只是想到这样的一个例子
05:07
points us to a general realization,
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能让我们有一个大体的认识
05:10
and that is no matter what technology or design you look at,
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不管你所看到的是怎样的一种科技或者设计
05:13
even something we consider as well intended and as good in its effects --
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就算是那些我们认为有良好意图的和良好结果的
05:18
like Stutzman's Freedom --
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就像是斯图兹曼的“自由者”软件
05:20
comes with certain values embedded in it.
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都已经内涵了既定的价值观
05:22
And we can question these values.
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然而我们能够质疑这样价值观
05:24
We can question: Is it a good thing
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我们能够提出疑问：为了能更好的
05:26
that all of us continuously self-optimize ourselves
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融入社会而不断自我完善
05:30
to fit better into that society?
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这是好事吗？
05:32
Or to give you another example,
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或者给你们说说另外一个例子
05:33
what about a piece of persuasive technology
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是什么样的引导方法
05:35
that convinces Muslim women to wear their headscarves?
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让穆斯林女子一直裹着头巾？
05:39
Is that a good or a bad technology
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就这个方法的意图和影响来看
05:41
in its intentions or in its effects?
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是好还是坏了？
05:44
Well that basically depends
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答案基本上是取决于
05:45
on the kind of values that you bring to bear
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你所持何种价值观
05:48
to make these kinds of judgments.
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来进行判断
05:50
So that's a third question:
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所以，第三个问题是就是：
05:52
What values do you use to judge?
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你所用来进行判断的价值观是什么？
05:53
And speaking of values,
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说到价值观
05:55
I've noticed that in the discussion about moral persuasion online,
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我注意到，在网上关于道德引导的讨论中
05:59
and when I'm talking with people,
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我在和人们交流的时候
06:00
more often than not there is a weird bias.
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谈话中多半会有一种奇怪的偏见
06:03
And that bias is that we're asking,
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那种偏见就是我们在问到的
06:06
is this or that "still" ethical?
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这个或那个“依旧”符合伦理吗？
06:09
Is it "still" permissible?
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这是不是“依旧”被允许的？
06:12
We're asking things like,
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我们会问
06:13
Is this Oxfam donation form --
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乐施会的捐助形式是
06:15
where the regular monthly donation is the preset default
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每月的捐款数是之前就定好的
06:18
and people, maybe without intending it,
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人们可能没打算捐
06:20
are that way encouraged or nudged
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但是被这种形式鼓励或者驱使着
06:23
into giving a regular donation instead of a one-time donation --
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定期捐款，而不是一次性捐款
06:26
is that still permissible?
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这种方法还被允许吗？
06:27
Is it still ethical?
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这种方法还符合伦理吗？
06:28
We're fishing at the low end.
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我们这是在下游钓鱼
06:30
But in fact, that question
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但事实上，那个问题
06:32
"Is it still ethical?"
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“这是不是依旧符合伦理”
06:33
is just one way of looking at ethics.
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只是审视伦理的其中一种方式
06:35
Because if you look at the beginning of ethics
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因为，当你看到伦理的开端
06:38
in Western culture,
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在西方文化里
06:40
you see a very different idea
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你会发现伦理还会有
06:42
of what ethics also could be.
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一种非常不同的理念
06:44
For Aristotle, ethics was not about the question,
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对亚里士多德来说，伦理不是关于
06:48
is that still good, or is it bad?
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这是好的吗，或者这是坏的吗的提问
06:50
Ethics was about the question of how to live life well.
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伦理是关于如何好好生活的疑问
06:54
And he put that in the word "arete,"
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而他用一个词将之总结，“arete”
06:56
which we, from the [Ancient Greek], translate as "virtue."
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我们把它从古希腊语翻译过来就是“美德”
06:59
But really it means excellence.
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但它真正意味着优秀
07:00
It means living up to your own full potential
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它的意思是不辜负自己做为一个人的
07:04
as a human being.
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全部潜力
07:07
And that is an idea
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这种理念
07:08
that, I think, that Paul Richard Buchanan nicely put in a recent essay
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保罗·理查德·布坎南最近的一篇论文将之很好地诠释了出来
07:11
where he said, "Products are vivid arguments
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他说：“商品是我们应该怎样过生活的
07:14
about how we should live our lives."
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生动的论述。“
07:16
Our designs are not ethical or unethical
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商品的设计是没有的或不道德的，
07:19
in that they're using ethical or unethical means of persuading us.
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不管它们使用的是道德的或不道德的手段来说服我们
07:23
They have a moral component
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但是它们确实有道义上的成分
07:25
just in the kind of vision and the aspiration of the good life
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其表现在所呈现给我们的对美好生活的
07:29
that they present to us.
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想象和渴望
07:32
And if you look into the designed environment around us
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如果以这种观点，你仔细观察周围
07:35
with that kind of lens,
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那些设定好的环境
07:36
asking, "What is the vision of the good life
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你来提问：“我们的商品，我们的设计呈现给我们的
07:39
that our products, our design, present to us?",
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是对美好生活怎样的一种想象？”
07:42
then you often get the shivers,
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你可能会浑身一襟
07:44
because of how little we expect of each other,
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因为我们对彼此的期待是如此得少
07:46
of how little we actually seem to expect
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因为我们似乎对我们的生活
07:49
of our life and what the good life looks like.
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和美好生活的样子的期待是如此得少
07:52
So that's the fourth question I'd like to leave you with:
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所以，第四个问题就是：
07:56
What vision of the good life
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你所设计的的商品, 传达的是美好生活的
07:58
do your designs convey?
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怎样的一种想象呢？
08:01
And speaking of design,
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说到设计
08:03
you notice that I already broadened the discussion.
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你注意到我已经扩大了这个讨论
08:06
Because it's not just persuasive technology that we're talking about here,
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因为这不仅仅是有引导性的技术的讨论
08:11
it's any piece of design that we put out here in the world.
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这是关于我们在这个世界上应用的任何一种设计方法的讨论
08:15
I don't know whether you know
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我不清楚各位知不知道
08:17
the great communication researcher Paul Watzlawick
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伟大的交流研究者保罗·瓦兹拉威克
08:18
who, back in the '60s, made the argument
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他在上世纪60年代发表了
08:20
we cannot not communicate.
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我们无法不进行交流的论述
08:21
Even if we choose to be silent,
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即使我们选择了保持沉默
08:24
we chose to be silent. We're communicating something by choosing to be silent.
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我们选择了保持沉默。我们通过选择沉默来进行某种交流
08:28
And in the same way that we cannot not communicate,
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就像我们无法不进行交流一样
08:31
we cannot not persuade.
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我们无法不进行引导
08:32
Whatever we do or refrain from doing,
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不管我们做什么或者制止做什么
08:35
whatever we put out there as a piece of design
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不管我们在这个世界上应用了
08:38
into the world
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怎样的设计方法
08:39
has a persuasive component.
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都有引导的成分
08:41
It tries to affect people.
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它试图影响人们
08:43
It puts a certain vision of the good life
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它给美好生活下好定义
08:46
out there in front of us.
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将之摆在我们面前
08:47
Which is what Peter-Paul Verbeek,
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也就如彼得-保罗·维比克
08:49
the Dutch philosopher of technology, says.
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这位荷兰的技术哲学家所说的
08:51
No matter whether we as designers intend it or not,
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作为设计者，不论我们有没有打算
08:56
we materialize morality.
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我们都把道德具象化了
08:57
We make certain things harder and easier to do.
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我们让一些事情做起来更困难或者更容易了
09:00
We organize the existence of people.
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我们把人类的存在安排得有秩有序
09:02
We put a certain vision of what good or bad
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我们通过在世界中的各种应用
09:05
or normal or usual is in front of people
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把孰好孰坏，把什么是道德的还是司空见惯的
09:08
by everything we put out there in the world.
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某种想象摆在人们面前
09:11
Even something as innocuous as a set of school chairs
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即使是像课桌椅这种无伤大雅的东西
09:14
is a persuasive technology.
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也是一种引导技术
09:16
Because it presents and materializes
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因为这也呈现并物质化了
09:19
a certain vision of the good life --
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某种美好生活的想象
09:21
the good life in which teaching and learning and listening
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在这种教学和聆听的美好生活中
09:24
is about one person teaching, the others listening,
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是一个一教课，其他人听课
09:27
in which it is about, learning is done while sitting,
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听课是要坐着听的
09:31
in which you learn for yourself,
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听课是为了自己
09:33
in which you're not supposed to change these rules
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你不应该去改变这种规则
09:35
because the chairs are fixed to the ground.
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因为椅子是固定在地上的
09:39
And even something as innocuous as a single design chair --
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甚至一只无伤大雅的时尚坐椅
09:42
like this one by Arne Jacobsen --
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像这只阿纳·雅各布森设计的坐椅
09:43
is a persuasive technology.
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也是一种引导技术
09:45
Because, again, it communicates an idea of the good life.
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因为，再一次的，这与美好生活的理念相联系
09:48
A good life --
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美好生活
09:50
a life that you say you as a designer consent to
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一种你作为设计者所赞成的生活
09:52
by saying, "In the good life,
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你说：“在美好生活中，
09:54
goods are produced as sustainably or unsustainably as this chair.
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商品就像这把椅子一样被持续或者不持续地生产出来
09:58
Workers are treated as well or as badly
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这些工人与那些打造椅子的工人的待遇
10:01
as the workers were treated who built that chair."
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同样好，或者同样糟糕
10:03
The good life is a life where design is important
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美好生活中设计十分重要
10:06
because somebody obviously took the time and spent the money
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因为为了那种精心设计的椅子
10:09
for that kind of well-designed chair,
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显然有人花了时间又花了金钱来买
10:10
where tradition is important
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这其中传统也同样重要
10:12
because this is a traditional classic
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因为这是件传统的经典
10:14
and someone cared about this,
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而且有人对这很在意
10:15
and where there is something as conspicuous consumption,
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这里存在着炫耀性消费
10:17
where it is okay and normal
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花费大笔的金钱在这么一把椅子上
10:19
to spend a humungous amount of money on such a chair
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去向其他人展示自己的地位
10:22
to signal to other people what your social status is.
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这也很正常
10:25
So these are the kinds of layers, the kinds of questions
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好了，这就是我今天想带各位
10:28
I wanted to lead you through today --
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体会的一些层次，一些问题 ----
10:30
the question of, What are the intentions
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当你设计某件事情时
10:32
that you bring to bear when you're designing something?
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你的意图是什么？
10:35
What are the effects, intended and unintended, that you're having?
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有意识或是无意识的，你将会造成了哪些影响？
10:38
What are the values you're using
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你判断这些所用的又是
10:40
to judge those?
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什么样的价值观?
10:41
What are the virtues, the aspirations
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在这其中，你真正想表达的
10:42
that you're actually expressing in that?
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美德和渴望又是什么？
10:45
And how does that apply,
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这些又是如何运用的？
10:47
not just to persuasive technology,
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不仅仅是运用在引导技术中
10:49
but to everything you design?
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这些是如何运用在你设计的每一件事中的？
10:52
Do we stop there?
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我们就到此为止了吗？
10:54
I don't think so.
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我不这么认为
10:55
I think that all of these things are eventually informed
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我觉得所有这些事情最终
11:00
by the core of all of this --
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都被这个所了解
11:01
and this is nothing but life itself.
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这不是别的什么东西，这个就是生活本身
11:04
Why, when the question of what the good life is
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为什么？当美好生活的问题
11:07
informs everything that we design,
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包括了我们所设计的一切
11:10
should we stop at design and not ask ourselves,
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我们是不是应该停止设计，也不要过问
11:12
how does it apply to our own life?
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它是如何适用于我们自己的生活的呢？
11:15
"Why should the lamp or the house be an art object,
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“为什么一盏灯一座房子可以成为艺术品，
11:18
but not our life?"
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而我们的生活就不能呢？
11:19
as Michel Foucault puts it.
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米歇尔·福柯如是说
11:21
Just to give you a practical example of Buster Benson.
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给你们举一下伯斯特·本森的现实的例子
11:24
This is Buster setting up a pull-up machine
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这是伯斯特在他新开办的习惯实验室的办公室里
11:27
at the office of his new startup Habit Labs,
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搭起的引体向上机
11:29
where they're trying to build up other applications
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在那里，他们还尝试着为人们建造其他应用
11:31
like Health Month for people.
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像是健康月(一个健康促进的游戏网站)
11:33
And why is he building a thing like this?
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那么他为什么要造这么个东西呢？
11:36
Well here is the set of axioms
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这有一些格言
11:38
that Habit Labs, Buster's startup, put up for themselves
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是习惯实验室，伯斯特的新公司，写给他们自己的
11:41
on how they wanted to work together as a team
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是关于他们建造这些应用时
11:44
when they're building these applications --
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如何想要进行团队合作的
11:46
a set of moral principles they set themselves
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这是他们为自己共同合作
11:48
for working together --
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所写的一系列道德准则
11:50
and one of them being,
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其中一条是
11:51
"We take care of our own health and manage our own burnout."
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“我们照顾好自己并且控制好自己的倦怠”
11:54
Because ultimately how can you ask yourselves
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因为根本上，如果不去问你自己想要
11:58
and how can you find an answer
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生活在怎样的一种
11:59
on what vision of the good life
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美好生活中
12:02
you want to convey and create with your designs
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你如何能设计出
12:05
without asking the question,
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能为你传达的想创造的
12:06
what vision of the good life
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那种美好生活的想象
12:08
do you yourself want to live?
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的商品?
12:11
And with that, I thank you.
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以此为总结 感谢各位
12:15
(Applause)
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(掌声)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Sebastian Deterding - DesignerSebastian Deterding is an interface designer who thinks deeply about persuasive and gameful design.
Why you should listen
Sebastian Deterding is a designer and researcher working on user experience, video games, persuasive technology and gameful design. He is interested in how code shapes conduct -- and how to put that knowledge into practice. He is a PhD researcher in Communication at the Graduate School of the Research Center for Media and Communication, Hamburg University. He is also an affiliated researcher at the Hans Bredow Institute for Media Research in Hamburg, and works as an independent user experience designer.
Sebastian Deterding | Speaker | TED.com