TEDSalon Berlin 2014
Hubertus Knabe: The dark secrets of a surveillance state
胡伯图斯•克纳贝: 一个监控国家的黑暗秘密
Filmed:
Readability: 4.8
1,232,877 views
带你游览前东德国家安全部斯塔西的深暗世界。斯塔西在监视其人民方面独一无二的强大，掌握了一套监控和心理施压的系统，从而控制国家数十载直到1989年柏林墙的倒塌。胡伯图斯•克纳贝研究斯塔西，也曾经被他们监视。他从一个监控国家的衰亡分享惊人的细节，以及展示邻里之间的背叛是如何容易。
Hubertus Knabe - Historian
Hubertus Knabe studies the history of torture, oppression and surveillance in former East Germany. Full bio
Hubertus Knabe studies the history of torture, oppression and surveillance in former East Germany. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
This year, Germany is celebrating
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今年，德国正在庆祝
00:14
the 25th anniversary of the peaceful revolution
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前东德
和平革命25周年
00:17
in East Germany.
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00:19
In 1989, the Communist regime was moved away,
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在1989年，共产主义政权垮台
00:23
the Berlin Wall came down, and one year later,
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柏林墙倒塌，以及一年之后
00:27
the German Democratic Republic, the GDR,
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在东边的德意志民主共和国
简称GDR
00:31
in the East was unified
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00:33
with the Federal Republic of Germany in the West
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与在西边的德意志联邦共和国统一
00:35
to found today's Germany.
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成为今天的德国
00:39
Among many other things, Germany inherited
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在所有事项中
德国继承了前东德的秘密警察
00:42
the archives of the East German secret police,
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00:47
known as the Stasi.
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被称为史塔西
（国家安全部）
（国家安全部）
00:50
Only two years after its dissolution,
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在它解体后仅两年
00:52
its documents were opened to the public,
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它的文档向大众公开
00:56
and historians such as me started
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像我这样的历史学家
开始研究这些文档
00:59
to study these documents
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01:01
to learn more about how the GDR surveillance state
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了解更多关于GDR国家监控
01:05
functioned.
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如何运作
01:07
Perhaps you have watched the movie
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可能你看过这部电影
01:10
"The Lives of Others."
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「窃听风暴」
01:12
This movie made the Stasi known worldwide,
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这部电影使史塔西世界闻名
01:17
and as we live in an age where words
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而我们生活在这样一个时代
01:19
such as "surveillance" or "wiretapping"
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例如「监控」或「窃听」
01:23
are on the front pages of newspapers,
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这种字眼会在新闻首页
01:25
I would like to speak about how the Stasi
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我很乐意分享现实中
01:28
really worked.
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史塔西如何运作
01:31
At the beginning, let's have a short look
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首先，我们简短回顾
01:33
at the history of the Stasi,
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史塔西的历史
01:35
because it's really important for understanding
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因为了解它的自我观
01:38
its self-conception.
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很重要
01:41
Its origins are located in Russia.
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它起源于俄罗斯
01:44
In 1917, the Russian Communists founded
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1917年，俄罗斯共产党人建立了
01:46
the Emergency Commission for Combating
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肃清反革命和消除怠工
01:48
Counter-Revolution and Sabotage,
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紧急委员会
01:51
shortly Cheka.
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简称契卡
（肃反委员会）
（肃反委员会）
01:53
It was led by Felix Dzerzhinsky.
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它由费利克斯・捷尔任斯基领导
01:56
The Cheka was an instrument of the Communists
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契卡是共产党人建立政权的一个工具
02:00
to establish their regime by terrorizing the population
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通过恐吓群众
02:03
and executing their enemies.
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和处死敌人的方式
02:06
It evolved later into the well-known KGB.
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后来它演变为著名的KGB
（苏联国家安全委员会）
（苏联国家安全委员会）
02:12
The Cheka was the idol of the Stasi officers.
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契卡是史塔西工作人员的楷模
02:15
They called themselves Chekists,
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他们自称肃反委员会成员
02:18
and even the emblem was very similar,
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甚至你在这里可以见到
02:21
as you can see here.
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象徽非常相似
02:24
In fact, the secret police of Russia
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事实上，俄罗斯秘密警察
02:28
was the creator and instructor of the Stasi.
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是史塔西的创造者和引导人
02:31
When the Red Army occupied East Germany in 1945,
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当红军在1945年占领前东德后
02:35
it immediately expanded there,
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它马上在前东德扩张
02:37
and soon it started to train the German Communists
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不久，它开始训练德国共产党人
02:41
to build up their own secret police.
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来建立他们自己的秘密警察
02:44
By the way, in this hall where we are now,
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顺便一提，我们现在所在的大堂
02:47
the ruling party of the GDR was founded in 1946.
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是1946年GDR统治政党成立的地方
02:53
Five years later, the Stasi was established,
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五年之后，史塔西成立
02:56
and step by step, the dirty job of oppression
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逐渐地，肮脏的压迫工作
02:59
was handed over to it.
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交到它手上
03:02
For instance, the central jail
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例如，关押政治囚犯的
03:04
for political prisoners,
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中央监狱
03:05
which was established by the Russians,
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由俄罗斯人建立
03:08
was taken over by the Stasi
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被史塔西接替
03:10
and used until the end of Communism.
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使用直到共产主义结束
03:14
You see it here.
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你见到的就是这个监狱
03:15
At the beginning, every important step
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刚开始，每一个重要步骤
03:19
took place under the attendance of the Russians.
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都在俄罗斯人在场时发生
03:23
But the Germans are known to be very effective,
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但是德国人因高效闻名
03:26
so the Stasi grew very quickly,
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所以史塔西成长非常迅速
03:29
and already in 1953, it had more employees
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早在1953年，它比盖世太保
03:33
than the Gestapo had,
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也称纳粹德国的秘密警察
03:34
the secret police of Nazi Germany.
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拥有更多雇员
03:37
The number doubled in each decade.
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这个数字每十年翻一倍
03:40
In 1989, more than 90,000 employees
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1989年，多于9万雇员
03:43
worked for the Stasi.
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为史塔西工作
03:45
This meant that one employee
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这意味着一位雇员
03:47
was responsible for 180 inhabitants,
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负责180位居民
03:50
which was really unique in the world.
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这在世界上非常罕见
03:54
At the top of this tremendous apparatus,
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在这庞大的机构顶端
03:57
there was one man, Erich Mielke.
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有一个男人，埃里希・米尔克
04:01
He ruled the Ministry of State Security
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他统治国家安全部
04:03
for more than 30 years.
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超过30年
04:05
He was a scrupulous functionary —
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他是一位及其细心的工作者
04:08
in his past, he killed two policemen
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在过去，他在离这里不远的地方
04:11
not far away from here —
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杀了两位警察
04:13
who in fact personalized the Stasi.
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事实上他定位了史塔西
04:17
But what was so exceptional about the Stasi?
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但是史塔西为什么这么独特？
04:21
Foremost, it was its enormous power,
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首先，它拥有庞大的权力
04:24
because it united different functions
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因为它把不同功能
04:28
in one organization.
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统一到一个组织
04:30
First of all, the Stasi
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第一点，史塔西
04:32
was an intelligence service.
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是一个情报机构
04:35
It used all the imaginable instruments
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它使用所有可想象的工具
04:38
for getting information secretly,
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来秘密获取情报
04:40
such as informers, or tapping phones,
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例如告密者，窃听电话
04:43
as you can see it on the picture here.
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从这张图片你可以看得到
04:46
And it was not only active in East Germany,
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还有它不仅活跃在前东德
04:49
but all over the world.
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而是全世界
04:52
Secondly, the Stasi was a secret police.
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第二点，史塔西是秘密警察
04:56
It could stop people on the street
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它可以在大街上拦住路人
04:58
and arrest them in its own prisons.
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并且拘捕他们进自己的监狱
05:03
Thirdly, the Stasi worked
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第三点，史塔西
05:04
as a kind of public prosecutor.
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工作像一种公共检查机构
05:07
It had the right to open preliminary investigations
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它有官方开展初步调查
05:10
and to interrogate people officially.
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和审问人民的权利
05:14
Last but not least,
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最后一点
05:16
the Stasi had its own armed forces.
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史塔西有自己的军事力量
05:20
More than 11,000 soldiers were serving
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超过1万1千名士兵
05:22
in its so-called Guards Regiment.
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在所谓警卫团中服役
05:25
It was founded to crash down protests and uprisings.
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它被建立来粉碎抗议和暴动
05:30
Due to this concentration of power,
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由于这种中央集权
05:32
the Stasi was called a state in the state.
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史塔西被称为国家中的国家
05:37
But let's look in more and more detail
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但是我们来看更多
05:40
at the tools of the Stasi.
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史塔西的工具的细节
05:42
Please keep in mind that at that time
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请记住当时
05:44
the web and smartphones were not yet invented.
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互联网和智能手机还未被发明
05:48
Of course, the Stasi used all kinds
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当然，史塔西使用各种
05:51
of technical instruments to survey people.
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技术工具来调查人民
05:54
Telephones were wiretapped,
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电话被窃听
05:56
including the phone of the
German chancellor in the West,
German chancellor in the West,
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包括西部德国总理
06:00
and often also the apartments.
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和所在部门的电话
06:03
Every day, 90,000 letters were being opened
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每一天，9万封信
06:07
by these machines.
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被这些机械打开
06:10
The Stasi also shadowed
tens of thousands of people
tens of thousands of people
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史塔西也跟踪成千上万的人
06:14
using specially trained agents and secret cameras
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使用特殊训练的特工和秘密相机
06:17
to document every step one took.
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来记录一个人走的每一步
06:21
In this picture, you can see me
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在这张照片里，你可以看见我
06:23
as a young man just in front of this building
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还是一个年轻人的样子
刚好在这个建筑前面
刚好在这个建筑前面
06:27
where we are now, photographed by a Stasi agent.
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就是现在我们在的地方，
照片是史塔西代理照的
照片是史塔西代理照的
06:30
The Stasi even collected the smell of people.
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史塔西甚至收集人们的体味
06:35
It stored samples of it in closed jars
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它把样本保存在密封的罐子里
06:38
which were found after the peaceful revolution.
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在和平革命后被发现
06:43
For all these tasks, highly specialized departments
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以上所有任务，由高度专业化部门
06:47
were responsible.
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负责
06:49
The one which was tapping phone calls
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窃听电话的任务
06:51
was completely separated
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和掌管信件任务部门
06:53
from the one which controlled the letters,
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完全分离
06:56
for good reasons,
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有很好的理由
06:57
because if one agent quit the Stasi,
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因为如果一个代理离开史塔西
07:02
his knowledge was very small.
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它的知情度会非常少
07:04
Contrast that with Snowden, for example.
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如和斯诺登相反
（爱德华・斯诺登，泄露美国棱镜计划）
（爱德华・斯诺登，泄露美国棱镜计划）
07:08
But the vertical specialization was also important
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但是纵向专业化同样很重要
07:11
to prevent all kinds of empathy
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可用于防止产生任何
07:13
with the object of observation.
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对于观察对象的同情心
07:16
The agent who shadowed me
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跟踪我的对象
07:18
didn't know who I was
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并不知道我是谁
07:20
or why I was surveyed.
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和我为什么被调查
07:22
In fact, I smuggled forbidden books
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事实上，我从前西德
07:24
from West to East Germany.
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向前东德走私禁书
07:27
But what was even more typical for the Stasi
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但是史塔西更典型的是
07:30
was the use of human intelligence,
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使用人类智慧
07:33
people who reported secretly to the Stasi.
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即向史塔西告密的人
07:37
For the Minister of State Security,
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在国家安全部
07:39
these so-called unofficial employees
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这些所谓非官方雇员
07:42
were the most important tools.
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是最重要的工具
07:45
From 1975 on, nearly 200,000 people
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从1975年起，接近20万人
07:50
collaborated constantly with the Stasi,
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和史塔西长期合作
07:53
more than one percent of the population.
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人数多于国家人口的百分之一
07:58
And in a way, the minister was right,
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在某种情况下，安全部是对的
08:00
because technical instruments
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因为技术工具
08:02
can only register what people are doing,
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只能记录人们的活动
08:06
but agents and spies can also report
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但是特工和间谍同时能报告
08:09
what people are planning to do
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人们的计划
08:11
and what they are thinking.
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和他们的思想
08:13
Therefore, the Stasi recruited so many informants.
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因此，史塔西雇佣了大量告密者
08:18
The system of how to get them
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如它所言，获得他们
08:21
and how to educate them, as it was called,
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和教育他们的体系
08:24
was very sophisticated.
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是非常复杂的
08:27
The Stasi had its own university,
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史塔西有自己的大学
08:30
not far away from here,
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离这里不远
08:31
where the methods were explored
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他们在那里探索方法、
08:33
and taught to the officers.
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教导工作者
08:36
This guideline gave a detailed description
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这本指引给出详细介绍
08:39
of every step you have to take
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关于你需要采取的每一步
08:42
if you want to convince human beings
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如果你想说服人类
08:44
to betray their fellow citizens.
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背叛他们的公民同胞
08:48
Sometimes it's said that informants were pressured
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有时，有人说 告密者是被迫
08:52
to becoming one,
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成为其中一员的
08:53
but that's mostly not true,
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但这在大部分情况下并不真实
08:56
because a forced informant is a bad informant.
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因为被强迫的告密者
是糟糕的告密者
是糟糕的告密者
09:00
Only someone who wants to give
you the information you need
you the information you need
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只有想给你提供必要信息的人
09:03
is an effective whistleblower.
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才是一个有效的告密者
09:05
The main reasons why people
cooperated with the Stasi
cooperated with the Stasi
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人们和史塔西合作的重要原因是
09:10
were political conviction and material benefits.
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政治信仰和实际利益
09:16
The officers also tried to create a personal bond
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工作人员也尝试在他们和告密者间
09:19
between themselves and the informant,
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建立私人联系
09:22
and to be honest, the example of the Stasi shows
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老实说，史塔西的例子显示
09:28
that it's not so difficult to win someone
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要赢得某人背叛其他人
09:31
in order to betray others.
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并不太难
09:34
Even some of the top dissidents in East Germany
185
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甚至某些前东德的高层异议分子
09:38
collaborated with the Stasi,
186
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与史塔西有合作
09:40
as for instance Ibrahim Böhme.
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例如伊布拉西・博梅
09:44
In 1989, he was the leader of the peaceful revolution
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在1989年，他是和平革命领袖
09:46
and he nearly became the first freely
elected Prime Minister of the GDR
elected Prime Minister of the GDR
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4374
他几乎成为第一个
自由选举产生的GDR首相
自由选举产生的GDR首相
09:51
until it came out that he was an informant.
190
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但结果他是一位告密者
09:56
The net of spies was really broad.
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间谍网络非常广泛
10:00
In nearly every institution,
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1706
几乎在任何机构
10:02
even in the churches or in West Germany,
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甚至在教堂或者前西德
10:05
there were many of them.
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都有大量间谍的存在
10:07
I remember telling a leading Stasi officer,
195
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3489
我记得告诉过一个史塔西领导工作者
10:11
"If you had sent an informant to me,
196
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3429
「如果你向我派一位告密者
10:14
I would surely have recognized him."
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我很肯定能认出他」
10:17
His answer was,
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1859
他的回答是
10:18
"We didn't send anyone.
199
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「我们没有派任何人
10:20
We took those who were around you."
200
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我们使用的是那些在你身边的人」
10:23
And in fact, two of my best friends
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事实上，我的两个最好的朋友
10:26
reported about me to the Stasi.
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向史塔西举报了我
10:30
Not only in my case, informers were very close.
203
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2589
告密者非常亲近，
并不只发生在我的身上
并不只发生在我的身上
10:32
For example, Vera Lengsfeld,
another leading dissident,
another leading dissident,
204
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3703
例如，另一个异议分子领袖，
雷恩斯・菲尔德
雷恩斯・菲尔德
10:36
in her case it was her husband who spied on her.
205
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4213
在她的案例中，
她丈夫是暗中监视她的人
她丈夫是暗中监视她的人
10:40
A famous writer was betrayed by his brother.
206
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3353
一位著名作家被他的兄弟背叛
10:44
This reminds me of the novel "1984" by George Orwell,
207
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3892
这令我想起乔治・奧威尔写的小说「1984」
10:48
where the only apparently trustable person
208
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3079
小说里仅有的明显可以信任的人
10:51
was an informer.
209
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2813
是一位告密者
10:54
But why did the Stasi collect all this information
210
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3697
但是为什么史塔西收集所有这些信息
10:57
in its archives?
211
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1921
到它的档案室里？
10:59
The main purpose was to control the society.
212
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主要目的是控制社会
11:03
In nearly every speech, the Stasi minister
213
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2583
几乎每次演说，史塔西部长
11:06
gave the order to find out who is who,
214
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2722
会下令弄清楚谁是谁
11:09
which meant who thinks what.
215
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3094
即每个人在想什么
11:12
He didn't want to wait until somebody
216
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1751
他不想等到某人
11:13
tried to act against the regime.
217
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2520
尝试反抗这个政权
11:16
He wanted to know in advance
218
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1890
他想提前知道
11:18
what people were thinking and planning.
219
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2895
人民的思想和计划
11:21
The East Germans knew, of course,
220
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2822
前东德人民当然知道
11:23
that they were surrounded by informers,
221
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他们被情报员包围
11:27
in a totalitarian regime that created mistrust
222
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3973
因为在这个产生怀疑的
集权主义政体
集权主义政体
11:31
and a state of widespread fear,
223
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3094
和普遍恐惧感的国家里
11:34
the most important tools to oppress people
224
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3516
情报员是独裁主义里面
11:37
in any dictatorship.
225
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2159
压迫人民最重要的工具
11:39
That's why not many East Germans tried
226
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2603
那就是为什么很多前东德人
11:42
to fight against the Communist regime.
227
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4284
尝试与共产主义政权作斗争
11:46
If yes, the Stasi often used a method
228
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4582
如果这样做，史塔西经常使用一种
11:51
which was really diabolic.
229
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非常残忍的方法
11:54
It was called Zersetzung,
230
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2186
它被称为分解
11:56
and it's described in another guideline.
231
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3671
它被另一本指引所描述
11:59
The word is difficult to translate because it means
232
707907
2800
这个单词很难翻译
12:02
originally "biodegradation."
233
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3898
因为它原意是「生物降解」
12:06
But actually, it's a quite accurate description.
234
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3354
但事实上，这是它很准确的描述
12:09
The goal was to destroy secretly
235
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3559
目标是悄悄地毁灭
12:13
the self-confidence of people,
236
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2890
人民的自信心
12:16
for example by damaging their reputation,
237
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3113
例如毁坏他们的威望
12:19
by organizing failures in their work,
238
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3469
通过在他们工作中安排失败
12:22
and by destroying their personal relationships.
239
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4630
和破坏他们的个人关系的方式
12:27
Considering this, East Germany
was a very modern dictatorship.
was a very modern dictatorship.
240
735620
5375
考虑到这一点，前东德是
一个非常前卫的独裁国家
一个非常前卫的独裁国家
12:32
The Stasi didn't try to arrest every dissident.
241
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4371
史塔西没有尝试拘捕每一个异议分子
12:37
It preferred to paralyze them,
242
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3091
它选择击垮他们
12:40
and it could do so because
243
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2503
它之所以能够这样做
12:42
it had access to so much personal information
244
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3350
是因为它有大量个人资料
12:46
and to so many institutions.
245
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3930
和大量机构资料
12:50
Detaining someone was used only
246
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2272
扣押某人
12:52
as a last resort.
247
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2530
只是最后的手段
12:55
For this, the Stasi owned 17 remand prisons,
248
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3305
为此，史塔西拥有17个扣押监狱
12:58
one in every district.
249
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2517
每个地区一个
13:00
Here, the Stasi also developed
250
768864
2674
在这里，史塔西也发明了
13:03
quite modern methods of detention.
251
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4442
很先进的扣押方法
13:07
Normally, the interrogation officer
252
775980
1783
通常，审问人员
13:09
didn't torture the prisoner.
253
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3463
并不折磨犯人
13:13
Instead, he used a sophisticated system
254
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2576
反而，他使用一种复杂的
13:15
of psychological pressure
255
783802
2138
中心是绝对隔离的
13:17
in which strict isolation was central.
256
785940
4094
心理施压体系
13:22
Nearly no prisoner resisted
257
790034
2284
几乎没有囚犯
13:24
without giving a testimony.
258
792318
3229
能够忍耐下来不作供
13:27
If you have the occasion,
259
795547
2062
如果你有机会
13:29
do visit the former Stasi prison in Berlin
260
797609
3451
请参观在柏林的前史塔西监狱
13:33
and attend a guided tour
with a former political prisoner
with a former political prisoner
261
801060
3589
并且参加由前政治囚犯
导游的游览
导游的游览
13:36
who will explain to you how this worked.
262
804649
2856
这会解释让你知道这一切是
如何运作的
如何运作的
13:39
One more question needs to be answered:
263
807505
3159
还有一个问题需要被解答：
13:42
If the Stasi were so well organized,
264
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2442
如果史塔西组织得这么好
13:45
why did the Communist regime collapse?
265
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4333
为什么共产主义政体崩塌了？
13:49
First, in 1989, the leadership in East Germany
266
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4131
首先，在1989年，前东德领导权
13:53
was uncertain what to do against
267
821570
2261
不知道怎么来应对
13:55
the growing protest of people.
268
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2937
不断增长的抗议民众
13:58
It was especially confused
269
826768
2351
它非常困惑
14:01
because in the mother country of socialism,
270
829119
2771
因为社会主义的发源地
14:03
the Soviet Union,
271
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1520
苏维埃联盟
14:05
a more liberal policy took place.
272
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3383
发布了一个更自由的政策
14:08
In addition, the regime was dependent
273
836793
2417
另外，这个政体依赖于
14:11
on the loans from the West.
274
839210
3392
从西部获得的贷款
14:14
Therefore, no order to crash down the uprising
275
842602
2548
因此，史塔西没有收到
14:17
was given to the Stasi.
276
845150
3077
粉碎暴动的指令
14:20
Secondly, in the Communist ideology,
277
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3633
其次，共产主义思想体系
14:23
there's no place for criticism.
278
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2653
没有批判主义的位置
14:26
Instead, the leadership stuck to the belief
279
854513
2307
相反地，领导权坚持了
14:28
that socialism is a perfect system,
280
856820
2794
社会主义是一个完美体系的信仰
14:31
and the Stasi had to confirm that, of course.
281
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4251
当然，史塔西必须证实这个信念
14:35
The consequence was
282
863865
2361
结果是
14:38
that despite all the information,
283
866226
2496
尽管有所有信息
14:40
the regime couldn't analyze its real problems,
284
868722
4164
这个政体仍不能分析自己的真实问题
14:44
and therefore it couldn't solve them.
285
872886
2685
因而它不能解决它们
14:47
In the end, the Stasi died
286
875571
2704
最后，史塔西灭亡
14:50
because of the structures
287
878275
1793
因为这些体系
14:52
that it was charged with protecting.
288
880068
3720
它被用来承担保护职责
14:55
The ending of the Stasi
289
883788
2070
史塔西的结局
14:57
was something tragic,
290
885858
2047
是悲剧的
14:59
because these officers
291
887905
2059
因为这些工作人员
15:01
were kept busy during the peaceful revolution
292
889964
3068
在和平革命期间
15:05
with only one thing:
293
893032
1975
只忙于一件事：
15:07
to destroy the documents
294
895007
2653
毁灭他们几十年来
15:09
they had produced during decades.
295
897660
3691
产生的所有文件
15:13
Fortunately,
296
901351
1918
幸运地
15:15
they had been stopped by human rights activists.
297
903269
3537
他们被人权活动制止
15:18
That's why today we can use the files
298
906806
2926
这就是我们今天能用这些文档
15:21
to get a better understanding
299
909732
1624
更好了解
15:23
of how a surveillance state functions.
300
911356
2780
一个监控国家如何运作的原因
15:26
Thank you.
301
914136
1997
谢谢
15:28
(Applause)
302
916133
4306
（掌声）
15:36
Bruno Giussani: Thank you. Thank you very much.
303
924518
6060
Bruno Giussani：谢谢。非常感谢你
15:42
So Hubertus, I want to ask you a couple of questions
304
930578
2724
所以胡伯图斯，我想问你一些问题
15:45
because I have here Der Spiegel from last week.
305
933302
2788
因为我这里有上一周的明镜周刊
15:48
"Mein Nachbar NSA." My neighbor, the NSA.
306
936090
4874
「我的邻里，NSA」
（美国国家安全局）
（美国国家安全局）
15:52
And you just told us about my neighbor,
307
940964
2631
而你刚告诉我们关于我的邻里
15:55
the spies and the informant from East Germany.
308
943595
2988
来自前东德间谍，和情报员的事情
15:58
So there is a direct link between these two stories
309
946583
2700
所以这两个故事有直接联系
16:01
or there isn't?
310
949283
1878
还是没有？
16:03
What's your reaction as a
historian when you see this?
historian when you see this?
311
951161
2022
作为一位历史学家当你看到这个
你是如何看待的呢？
你是如何看待的呢？
16:05
Hubertus Knabe: I think there are
312
953183
1725
Hubertus Knabe：我觉得
16:06
several aspects to mention.
313
954908
1903
应提及多个方面
16:08
At first, I think there's a difference
314
956811
3066
首先，我觉得
收集这些数据的原因不一样
16:11
of why you are collecting this data.
315
959877
4088
16:15
Are you doing that for protecting your people
316
963965
2318
你做这件事的原因
是保护你的人民
是保护你的人民
16:18
against terrorist attacks,
317
966283
1547
远离恐怖袭击
16:19
or are you doing that for oppressing your people?
318
967830
2770
还是为了压迫你的人民？
16:22
So that makes a fundamental difference.
319
970600
1942
所以那会是一个本质上的区别
16:24
But on the other hand,
320
972542
2349
但是另一方面
16:26
also in a democracy, these
instruments can be abused,
instruments can be abused,
321
974891
4319
在民主国家中，这些
工具也能被滥用
工具也能被滥用
16:31
and that is something where we really have
322
979210
2166
这也是我们需要
16:33
to be aware to stop that,
323
981376
1385
意识到并制止的地方
16:34
and that also the intelligence services
324
982761
2873
还有情报机构
16:37
are respecting the rules we have.
325
985634
3121
也要尊重我们已有的章程
16:40
The third point, probably,
326
988755
1500
第三点，可能
16:42
we really can be happy that we live in a democracy,
327
990255
3288
我们能生活在民主国家真的很幸福
16:45
because you can be sure that Russia and China
328
993543
3680
因为你能确定在俄罗斯和中国
16:49
are doing the same,
329
997223
1532
他们还在做同样的事
16:50
but nobody speaks about that
330
998755
1566
但是没有人提及
16:52
because nobody could do that.
331
1000321
2291
因为没有人能够那样做
16:54
(Applause)
332
1002612
4964
（掌声）
17:01
BG: When the story came out first,
333
1009398
2053
BG：当时一个新闻报道首次出现
17:03
last July, last year,
334
1011451
2195
去年七月
17:05
you filed a criminal complaint
335
1013646
2828
你递交一份德国审理委员会
刑事起诉书
刑事起诉书
17:08
with a German tribunal. Why?
336
1016474
2980
为什么？
17:11
HK: Yeah, I did so because of
the second point I mentioned,
the second point I mentioned,
337
1019454
3213
HK：是的，我这样做是因为
我提到的第二点
我提到的第二点
17:14
that I think especially in a democracy,
338
1022667
2897
我觉得尤其在民主国家
17:17
the rules are for everybody.
339
1025564
3458
章程是对每个人而言的
17:21
They are made for everybody, so it's not allowed
340
1029022
2364
它们为每个人定立，所以它不允许
17:23
that any institution doesn't respect the rules.
341
1031386
3791
任何机构不遵守这些章程
17:27
In the criminal code of Germany, it's written
342
1035177
1978
在德国刑法里面，它写道
17:29
that it's not allowed to tap somebody
343
1037155
1855
没有法官的准许
17:31
without the permission of the judge.
344
1039010
2388
不能窃听任何人
17:33
Fortunately, it's written in
the criminal code of Germany,
the criminal code of Germany,
345
1041398
3821
幸运地，它记载在
德国刑法里面
德国刑法里面
17:37
so if it's not respected, then I think
346
1045219
3931
所以如果它不被遵守
17:41
an investigation is necessary,
347
1049150
1896
我觉得展开调查是必要的
17:43
and it took a very long time that
348
1051046
1979
而且它需要很长时间
17:45
the public prosecutor of Germany started this,
349
1053025
2106
让德国检察官开始调查
17:47
and he started it only in the case of Angela Merkel,
350
1055131
3571
并且他只开始于安格拉・默克尔的案件
17:50
and not in the case of all the
other people living in Germany.
other people living in Germany.
351
1058702
2956
而不是所有其他生活在德国的人
17:53
BG: That doesn't surprise me because —
352
1061658
2473
BG：那没有使我惊讶因为
17:56
(Applause) —
353
1064131
2123
（掌声）
17:58
because of the story you told.
354
1066254
3443
因为你告诉我们的故事
18:01
Seen from the outside, I live outside of Germany,
355
1069697
2483
从外界来看，我住在德国以外的地方
18:04
and I expected the Germans to react
356
1072180
1777
我期望德国马上
18:05
much more strongly, immediately.
357
1073957
3220
给出更强有力的反应
18:09
And instead, the reaction really came only
358
1077177
2612
而相反地，这个反应仅出现
18:11
when Chancellor Merkel was revealed
359
1079789
1857
当默克尔总理被揭露
18:13
as being wiretapped. Why so?
360
1081646
3555
在被窃听时。为什么这样？
18:17
HK: I take it as a good sign,
361
1085201
1863
HK：我把这件事作为一个好的迹象
18:19
because people feel secure in this democracy.
362
1087064
4330
因为人民在这个民主国家中感到安全
18:23
They aren't afraid that they will be arrested,
363
1091394
2214
他们并不害怕会被拘捕
18:25
and if you leave this hall after the conference,
364
1093608
3163
而且如果你在会议后离开这个大堂
18:28
nobody has to be afraid that the secret police
365
1096771
2564
没有人会害怕秘密警察
18:31
is standing out and is arresting you.
366
1099335
2438
站在外面和拘捕你
18:33
So that's a good sign, I think.
367
1101773
1594
所以这是一个好的迹象，我觉得
18:35
People are not really scared, as they could be.
368
1103367
2875
人民并没有像他们可能那样真的畏惧
18:38
But of course, I think, the institutions
369
1106242
4354
但是当然，我认为，相关机构
18:42
are responsible to stop illegal actions
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要负责制止在德国
18:45
in Germany or wherever they happen.
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或者在任何其他地方发生
的不合法行为
的不合法行为
18:48
BG: A personal question,
and this is the last one.
and this is the last one.
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BG：问一个私人问题，并且是最后一个
18:51
There has been a debate in Germany about
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德国内有一个关于
18:53
granting asylum to Edward Snowden.
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给爱德华・斯诺登提供
政治庇护的争论
政治庇护的争论
18:55
Would you be in favor or against?
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你会赞成还是反对呢？
18:58
HK: Oh, that's a difficult question,
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HK：噢，那是一个很难的问题
18:59
but if you ask me,
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但如果你问我
19:01
and if I answer honestly,
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而如果我老实回答
19:03
I would give him the asylum,
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我会给他庇护
19:04
because I think it was really brave what he did,
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因为我觉得他做的事情真的很勇敢
19:06
and he destroyed his whole life
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而且他毁掉了自己一生
19:09
and his family and everything.
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和他的家庭和所有事情
19:11
So I think, for these people,
we should do something,
we should do something,
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所以我觉得，对于这些人，
我们应该做一些事情
我们应该做一些事情
19:14
and especially if you see the German history,
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特别如果你看回德国历史
19:18
where so many people had to escape
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有很多人不得不逃跑
19:21
and they asked for asylum in other countries
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他们在其他国家请求庇护
19:23
and they didn't get it,
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而他们没有得到
19:24
so it would be a good sign to give him asylum.
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所以给他提供庇护是一个好的迹象
19:27
(Applause)
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（掌声）
19:29
BG: Hubertus, thank you very much.
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BG：胡伯图斯，非常感谢你
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Hubertus Knabe - HistorianHubertus Knabe studies the history of torture, oppression and surveillance in former East Germany.
Why you should listen
Hubertus Knabe is a historian and the scientific director of Berlin-Hohenschönhausen Memorial, where he studies the inner workings of the East German Ministry of State Security (MfS) -- or Stasi -- between 1945 and 1989. The memorial, once the main remand prison used by the Stasi, is devoted to raising awareness of the brutal oppression that once stemmed from the agency. Before the fall of the Berlin Wall Knabe was under surveillance himself, for smuggling banned books from the West into East Germany. He is the author of over a dozen books on German history, including 17. Juni 1953 - Ein deutscher Aufstand.
More profile about the speakerHubertus Knabe | Speaker | TED.com