TEDSalon Berlin 2014
Hubertus Knabe: The dark secrets of a surveillance state
Hubertus Knabe: Mračne tajne državnog nadzora
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Provedite se kroz duboki mračni svijet istočnonjemačke državno-sigurnosne agencije poznate kao Stasi. Bio je posebno moćan u špijuniranju svojih građana, a sve do pada Berlinskog zida 1989. godine, upotrebljavao je sustav nadzora i psihološkog pritiska koji je desetljećima držao državu pod kontrolom. Hubertus Knabe proučava Stasi — a bio je i objekt prismotre. Dijeli s nama zapanjujuće detalje iz vremena pada državnog nadzora i pokazuje kako je bilo jednostavno okrenuti se protiv svog susjeda.
Hubertus Knabe - Historian
Hubertus Knabe studies the history of torture, oppression and surveillance in former East Germany. Full bio
Hubertus Knabe studies the history of torture, oppression and surveillance in former East Germany. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
This year, Germany is celebrating
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Ove godine, Njemačka slavi
00:14
the 25th anniversary of the peaceful revolution
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25. godišnjicu mirne revolucije
00:17
in East Germany.
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u Istočnoj Njemačkoj.
00:19
In 1989, the Communist regime was moved away,
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1989. godine,
komunistički režim je uklonjen,
komunistički režim je uklonjen,
00:23
the Berlin Wall came down, and one year later,
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Berlinski zid je srušen,
a godinu dana poslije,
a godinu dana poslije,
00:27
the German Democratic Republic, the GDR,
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Njemačka Demokratska Republika, DDR,
00:31
in the East was unified
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je na istoku ujedinjena
00:33
with the Federal Republic of Germany in the West
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sa Saveznom Republikom Njemačkom na zapadu
00:35
to found today's Germany.
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te je osnovana današnja Njemačka.
00:39
Among many other things, Germany inherited
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Između ostalog, Njemačka je naslijedila
00:42
the archives of the East German secret police,
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arhive istočnonjemačke tajne policije
00:47
known as the Stasi.
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poznate kao Stasi.
00:50
Only two years after its dissolution,
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Samo dvije godine nakon
njegovog raspuštanja,
njegovog raspuštanja,
00:52
its documents were opened to the public,
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dokumenti su otvoreni javnosti,
00:56
and historians such as me started
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a povjesničari poput mene počeli su
00:59
to study these documents
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proučavati ove dokumente
01:01
to learn more about how the GDR surveillance state
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kako bi shvatili kako je
DDR-ov državni nadzor
DDR-ov državni nadzor
01:05
functioned.
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funkcionirao.
01:07
Perhaps you have watched the movie
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Možda ste pogledali film
01:10
"The Lives of Others."
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"Život drugih".
01:12
This movie made the Stasi known worldwide,
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Ovaj film pokazao je Stasi svijetu
01:17
and as we live in an age where words
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i kako živimo u doba kada su riječi
01:19
such as "surveillance" or "wiretapping"
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poput "nadzor" ili "prisluškivanje"
01:23
are on the front pages of newspapers,
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na prvim stranicama novina,
01:25
I would like to speak about how the Stasi
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htio bih reći nešto o tome kako je Stasi
01:28
really worked.
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stvarno funkcionirao.
01:31
At the beginning, let's have a short look
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Prije svega, pogledajmo ukratko
01:33
at the history of the Stasi,
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povijest Stasija
01:35
because it's really important for understanding
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jer je to iznimno važno
za razumijevanje
za razumijevanje
01:38
its self-conception.
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njegovog začetka.
01:41
Its origins are located in Russia.
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Njegovo ishodište je u Rusiji.
01:44
In 1917, the Russian Communists founded
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1917., ruski komunisti su osnovali
01:46
the Emergency Commission for Combating
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Izvanredno povjerenstvo za borbu
01:48
Counter-Revolution and Sabotage,
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protiv kontrarevolucije i sabotaže,
01:51
shortly Cheka.
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skraćeno ČEKA.
01:53
It was led by Felix Dzerzhinsky.
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Vodio ju je Feliks Dzeržinski.
01:56
The Cheka was an instrument of the Communists
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ČEKA je bila komunistički instrument
02:00
to establish their regime by terrorizing the population
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za uspostavljanje svog režima
kroz teror stanovništva
kroz teror stanovništva
02:03
and executing their enemies.
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i likvidacijom svojih neprijatelja.
02:06
It evolved later into the well-known KGB.
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Kasnije je evoluirala u dobro poznati KGB.
02:12
The Cheka was the idol of the Stasi officers.
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ČEKA je bila idol Stasi časnika.
02:15
They called themselves Chekists,
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Nazivali su se Čekistima,
02:18
and even the emblem was very similar,
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a čak im je i grb bio vrlo sličan,
02:21
as you can see here.
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kao što vidite.
02:24
In fact, the secret police of Russia
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Zapravo je ruska tajna policija
02:28
was the creator and instructor of the Stasi.
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bila stvoritelj i učitelj Stasija.
02:31
When the Red Army occupied East Germany in 1945,
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Kada je Crvena armija okupirala
Istočnu Njemačku 1945.,
Istočnu Njemačku 1945.,
02:35
it immediately expanded there,
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odmah se ondje proširila
02:37
and soon it started to train the German Communists
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i ubrzo počela s uvježbavanjem
njemačkih komunista
njemačkih komunista
02:41
to build up their own secret police.
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u izgradnji svoje tajne policije.
02:44
By the way, in this hall where we are now,
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Usputno rečeno, u ovoj dvorani
u kojoj se nalazimo
u kojoj se nalazimo
02:47
the ruling party of the GDR was founded in 1946.
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osnovana je vodeća stranka
DDR-a 1946. godine.
DDR-a 1946. godine.
02:53
Five years later, the Stasi was established,
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Pet godina poslije,
Stasi je uspostavljen
Stasi je uspostavljen
02:56
and step by step, the dirty job of oppression
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te malo pomalo, prljavi posao opresije
02:59
was handed over to it.
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mu je predan.
03:02
For instance, the central jail
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Na primjer, središnji zatvor
03:04
for political prisoners,
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za političke zatvorenike,
03:05
which was established by the Russians,
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kojeg su uspostavili Rusi,
03:08
was taken over by the Stasi
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preuzeo je Stasi
03:10
and used until the end of Communism.
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i koristio do pada komunizma.
03:14
You see it here.
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Vidite ga ovdje.
03:15
At the beginning, every important step
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Na početku, svaki važniji korak
03:19
took place under the attendance of the Russians.
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napravljen je uz dežurstvo Rusa.
03:23
But the Germans are known to be very effective,
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No Nijemci su poznati
po svojoj učinkovitosti
po svojoj učinkovitosti
03:26
so the Stasi grew very quickly,
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stoga je Stasi vrlo brzo rastao,
03:29
and already in 1953, it had more employees
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a već je 1953. godine
imao više zaposlenika
imao više zaposlenika
03:33
than the Gestapo had,
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od Gestapa,
03:34
the secret police of Nazi Germany.
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tajne policije nacističke Njemačke.
03:37
The number doubled in each decade.
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Broj im se udvostručavao
svakog desetljeća.
svakog desetljeća.
03:40
In 1989, more than 90,000 employees
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1989. godine,
više od 90 000 zaposlenika
više od 90 000 zaposlenika
03:43
worked for the Stasi.
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radilo je za Stasi.
03:45
This meant that one employee
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To znači da je jedan zaposlenik
03:47
was responsible for 180 inhabitants,
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bio odgovoran za 180 stanovnika,
03:50
which was really unique in the world.
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što je bilo doista
jedinstveno u svijetu.
jedinstveno u svijetu.
03:54
At the top of this tremendous apparatus,
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Na vrhu ove silne mašinerije
03:57
there was one man, Erich Mielke.
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bio je jedan čovjek, Erich Mielke.
Bio je na čelu
Ministarstva za državnu sigurnost
Ministarstva za državnu sigurnost
04:01
He ruled the Ministry of State Security
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04:03
for more than 30 years.
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duže od 30 godina.
04:05
He was a scrupulous functionary —
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Bio je savjestan dužnosnik -
04:08
in his past, he killed two policemen
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u prošlosti, ubio je dvojicu policajaca
04:11
not far away from here —
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nedaleko odavdje -
04:13
who in fact personalized the Stasi.
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koji je bio oličenje Stasija.
04:17
But what was so exceptional about the Stasi?
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No što je bilo tako posebno
u vezi Stasija?
u vezi Stasija?
04:21
Foremost, it was its enormous power,
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Prvo, bila je to njegova ogromna moć
04:24
because it united different functions
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jer je ujedinio različite funkcije
04:28
in one organization.
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u jednoj organizaciji.
04:30
First of all, the Stasi
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Prije svega, Stasi
04:32
was an intelligence service.
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je bio obavještajna služba.
04:35
It used all the imaginable instruments
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Koristio je sve moguće instrumente
04:38
for getting information secretly,
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za tajno dobivanje informacija,
04:40
such as informers, or tapping phones,
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poput doušnika
ili prisluškivanja telefona
ili prisluškivanja telefona
04:43
as you can see it on the picture here.
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kao što vidite na ovoj slici.
04:46
And it was not only active in East Germany,
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Nije bio aktivan
samo u Istočnoj Njemačkoj
samo u Istočnoj Njemačkoj
04:49
but all over the world.
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nego u cijelom svijetu.
04:52
Secondly, the Stasi was a secret police.
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Drugo, Stasi je bio tajna policija.
04:56
It could stop people on the street
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Mogao je zaustaviti ljude na ulici
04:58
and arrest them in its own prisons.
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i uhititi ih u svoje vlastite zatvore.
05:03
Thirdly, the Stasi worked
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Treće, Stasi je djelovao
05:04
as a kind of public prosecutor.
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i kao nekakav javni tužitelj.
05:07
It had the right to open preliminary investigations
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Imao je pravo otvarati
preliminarne istrage
preliminarne istrage
05:10
and to interrogate people officially.
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i službeno ispitivati ljude.
05:14
Last but not least,
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I na kraju,
05:16
the Stasi had its own armed forces.
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Stasi je imao svoje oružane snage.
05:20
More than 11,000 soldiers were serving
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Više od 11 000 vojnika služilo je
05:22
in its so-called Guards Regiment.
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u njegovom tzv. Guards Regiment.
05:25
It was founded to crash down protests and uprisings.
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Osnovan je za suzbijanje
prosvjeda i ustanaka.
prosvjeda i ustanaka.
05:30
Due to this concentration of power,
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S obzirom na ovu koncentraciju moći,
05:32
the Stasi was called a state in the state.
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Stasi se nazivao
državom u državi.
državom u državi.
05:37
But let's look in more and more detail
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No, pogledajmo detaljnije
05:40
at the tools of the Stasi.
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alate Stasija.
05:42
Please keep in mind that at that time
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Imajte na umu da u to vrijeme
05:44
the web and smartphones were not yet invented.
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internet i pametni telefoni
nisu bili izumljeni.
nisu bili izumljeni.
05:48
Of course, the Stasi used all kinds
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Naravno, Stasi je koristio svakakve
05:51
of technical instruments to survey people.
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tehničke instrumente za nadzor ljudi.
05:54
Telephones were wiretapped,
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Prisluškivali su telefone,
05:56
including the phone of the
German chancellor in the West,
German chancellor in the West,
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uključujući i telefon
njemačkog kancelara na Zapadu,
njemačkog kancelara na Zapadu,
06:00
and often also the apartments.
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a često i stanove.
06:03
Every day, 90,000 letters were being opened
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Svaki dan, preko 90 000 pisama
06:07
by these machines.
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su ovi strojevi otvarali.
06:10
The Stasi also shadowed
tens of thousands of people
tens of thousands of people
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Stasi je i pratio
desetke tisuća ljudi
desetke tisuća ljudi
06:14
using specially trained agents and secret cameras
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pomoću posebno uvježbanih agenata
i tajnih kamera
i tajnih kamera
06:17
to document every step one took.
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kako bi dokumentirali nečiji
svaki korak.
svaki korak.
06:21
In this picture, you can see me
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Na ovoj slici, vidite mene
06:23
as a young man just in front of this building
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kao mladića ispred ove
zgrade u kojoj se nalazimo,
zgrade u kojoj se nalazimo,
06:27
where we are now, photographed by a Stasi agent.
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gdje me uslikao Stasi agent.
06:30
The Stasi even collected the smell of people.
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Stasi je čak skupljao i miris ljudi.
06:35
It stored samples of it in closed jars
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Čuvao je uzorke u
zatvorenim staklenkama,
zatvorenim staklenkama,
06:38
which were found after the peaceful revolution.
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koje su pronađene nakon mirne revolucije.
06:43
For all these tasks, highly specialized departments
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Za sve ove zadatke,
bili su odgovorni
bili su odgovorni
posebni odjeli.
06:47
were responsible.
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06:49
The one which was tapping phone calls
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Odjel koji je prisluškivao telefone
06:51
was completely separated
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bio je u potpunosti odvojen
06:53
from the one which controlled the letters,
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od onoga koji je kontrolirao pisma,
06:56
for good reasons,
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i iz dobrih razloga,
06:57
because if one agent quit the Stasi,
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jer ako jedan agent
prestane biti Stasi,
prestane biti Stasi,
07:02
his knowledge was very small.
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njegovo znanje je skromno.
07:04
Contrast that with Snowden, for example.
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Usporedite to sa Snowdenom, na primjer.
07:08
But the vertical specialization was also important
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No i vertikalna specijalizacija
bila je važna
bila je važna
07:11
to prevent all kinds of empathy
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kako bi se spriječile sve empatije
07:13
with the object of observation.
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s objektom prismotre.
07:16
The agent who shadowed me
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Agent koji me je pratio
07:18
didn't know who I was
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nije znao tko sam
07:20
or why I was surveyed.
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niti zašto me prati.
07:22
In fact, I smuggled forbidden books
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Krijumčario sam
zabranjene knjige
zabranjene knjige
07:24
from West to East Germany.
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iz Zapadne u Istočnu Njemačku.
07:27
But what was even more typical for the Stasi
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Ono što je bilo još tipičnije
za Stasi
za Stasi
07:30
was the use of human intelligence,
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je bila upotreba obavještajaca,
07:33
people who reported secretly to the Stasi.
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ljudi koji su tajno izvještavali Stasi.
07:37
For the Minister of State Security,
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Za Ministra za državnu sigurnost,
07:39
these so-called unofficial employees
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ovi tzv. neslužbeni zaposlenici
07:42
were the most important tools.
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bili su najvažniji alat.
07:45
From 1975 on, nearly 200,000 people
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Od 1975. nadalje, gotovo 200 000 ljudi
07:50
collaborated constantly with the Stasi,
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konstantno je surađivalo sa Stasijem,
07:53
more than one percent of the population.
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što je više od jedan posto stanovništva.
07:58
And in a way, the minister was right,
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Na neki način, ministar je bio u pravu
08:00
because technical instruments
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jer tehnički instrumenti
08:02
can only register what people are doing,
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mogu samo zabilježiti što ljudi rade,
08:06
but agents and spies can also report
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ali agenti i špijuni mogu
izvijestiti i o tome
izvijestiti i o tome
08:09
what people are planning to do
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što ljudi planiraju učiniti
08:11
and what they are thinking.
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i o čemu razmišljaju.
08:13
Therefore, the Stasi recruited so many informants.
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Zbog ovoga je Stasi
uposlio toliko doušnika.
uposlio toliko doušnika.
08:18
The system of how to get them
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Sustav njihovog pribavljanja
08:21
and how to educate them, as it was called,
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i edukacije, kako su to nazivali,
08:24
was very sophisticated.
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bio je vrlo profinjen.
08:27
The Stasi had its own university,
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Stasi je imao svoje sveučilište,
08:30
not far away from here,
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nedaleko odavdje,
08:31
where the methods were explored
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gdje su se proučavale metode
08:33
and taught to the officers.
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i poučavale časnicima.
08:36
This guideline gave a detailed description
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Ovaj vodič davao je detaljan opis
08:39
of every step you have to take
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svakog potrebnog koraka
08:42
if you want to convince human beings
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ako želite uvjeriti ljudsko biće
08:44
to betray their fellow citizens.
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da izda svoje sugrađane.
08:48
Sometimes it's said that informants were pressured
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Katkad kažu kako se
doušnike prisiljavalo
doušnike prisiljavalo
08:52
to becoming one,
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da postanu doušnicima,
08:53
but that's mostly not true,
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ali to uglavnom nije istina
08:56
because a forced informant is a bad informant.
175
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3911
jer prisiljeni doušnik je loš doušnik.
09:00
Only someone who wants to give
you the information you need
you the information you need
176
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3087
Samo netko tko vam želi dati informacije
koje vam trebaju je
koje vam trebaju je
09:03
is an effective whistleblower.
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531312
2661
učinkovit zviždač.
09:05
The main reasons why people
cooperated with the Stasi
cooperated with the Stasi
178
533973
4857
Glavni razlozi zašto su ljudi
surađivali sa Stasijem
surađivali sa Stasijem
09:10
were political conviction and material benefits.
179
538830
5500
bili su političko uvjerenje i
materijalna korist.
materijalna korist.
09:16
The officers also tried to create a personal bond
180
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3110
Časnici su također pokušavali
stvoriti osobnu vezu
stvoriti osobnu vezu
09:19
between themselves and the informant,
181
547440
3408
između sebe i doušnika
09:22
and to be honest, the example of the Stasi shows
182
550848
5152
i iskreno, primjer Stasija pokazuje
09:28
that it's not so difficult to win someone
183
556000
3392
da nije tako teško pridobiti nekoga
09:31
in order to betray others.
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559392
3443
kako bi izdao druge.
09:34
Even some of the top dissidents in East Germany
185
562835
3751
Čak su i neki vodeći
disidenti Istočne Njemačke
disidenti Istočne Njemačke
09:38
collaborated with the Stasi,
186
566586
1835
surađivali sa Stasijem,
09:40
as for instance Ibrahim Böhme.
187
568421
3745
kao na primjer Ibrahim Böhme.
09:44
In 1989, he was the leader of the peaceful revolution
188
572166
2790
1989., bio je vođa mirne revolucije
09:46
and he nearly became the first freely
elected Prime Minister of the GDR
elected Prime Minister of the GDR
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4374
te je umalo postao prvi slobodnoizabrani
premijer DDR-a
premijer DDR-a
09:51
until it came out that he was an informant.
190
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5145
dok se nije otkrilo da je bio doušnik.
09:56
The net of spies was really broad.
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3929
Mreža špijuna bila je doista široka.
10:00
In nearly every institution,
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588404
1706
U svakoj instituciji,
10:02
even in the churches or in West Germany,
193
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3245
čak i u crkvama Zapadne Njemačke,
10:05
there were many of them.
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2188
bilo ih je mnogo.
10:07
I remember telling a leading Stasi officer,
195
595543
3489
Sjećam se da sam rekao vodećem
časniku Stasija:
časniku Stasija:
10:11
"If you had sent an informant to me,
196
599032
3429
"Da ste poslali doušnika k meni,
10:14
I would surely have recognized him."
197
602461
2630
sigurno bih ga prepoznao."
10:17
His answer was,
198
605091
1859
Njegov odgovor bio je:
10:18
"We didn't send anyone.
199
606950
1443
"Nismo slali nikoga.
10:20
We took those who were around you."
200
608393
3022
Uzeli smo one koji te okružuju."
10:23
And in fact, two of my best friends
201
611415
2655
I doista, dvojica mojih
najboljih prijatelja
najboljih prijatelja
10:26
reported about me to the Stasi.
202
614070
4331
izvještavali su Stasi o meni.
10:30
Not only in my case, informers were very close.
203
618401
2589
Nisu samo u mojem slučaju
doušnici bili tako blizu.
doušnici bili tako blizu.
10:32
For example, Vera Lengsfeld,
another leading dissident,
another leading dissident,
204
620990
3703
Na primjer, Vera Lengsfeld,
druga vodeća disidentica,
druga vodeća disidentica,
10:36
in her case it was her husband who spied on her.
205
624693
4213
u njezinom slučaju,
njezin vlastiti muž ju je špijunirao.
njezin vlastiti muž ju je špijunirao.
10:40
A famous writer was betrayed by his brother.
206
628906
3353
Poznatog pisca izdao je vlastiti brat.
10:44
This reminds me of the novel "1984" by George Orwell,
207
632259
3892
Ovo me podsjeća na roman
"1984" Georga Orwella,
"1984" Georga Orwella,
10:48
where the only apparently trustable person
208
636151
3079
gdje je jedina osoba
kojoj se može vjerovati
kojoj se može vjerovati
10:51
was an informer.
209
639230
2813
doušnik.
10:54
But why did the Stasi collect all this information
210
642043
3697
No, zašto je Stasi skupljao
sve ove informacije
sve ove informacije
10:57
in its archives?
211
645740
1921
u svojim arhivama?
10:59
The main purpose was to control the society.
212
647661
4059
Glavni razlog bio je kontrola društva.
11:03
In nearly every speech, the Stasi minister
213
651720
2583
U gotovo svakom govoru,
ministar Stasija
ministar Stasija
11:06
gave the order to find out who is who,
214
654303
2722
davao je naredbu da se sazna
tko je tko,
tko je tko,
11:09
which meant who thinks what.
215
657025
3094
što je značilo tko što misli.
11:12
He didn't want to wait until somebody
216
660119
1751
Nije želio čekati do toga da netko
11:13
tried to act against the regime.
217
661870
2520
pokuša djelovati protiv režima.
11:16
He wanted to know in advance
218
664390
1890
Želio je znati unaprijed
11:18
what people were thinking and planning.
219
666280
2895
što su ljudi mislili i planirali.
11:21
The East Germans knew, of course,
220
669175
2822
Istočni Nijemci znali su, naravno,
11:23
that they were surrounded by informers,
221
671997
3170
da su okruženi doušnicima
11:27
in a totalitarian regime that created mistrust
222
675167
3973
u totalitarnom režimu
koji je stvarao nepovjerenje
koji je stvarao nepovjerenje
11:31
and a state of widespread fear,
223
679140
3094
i stanje široko rasprostranjenog straha,
11:34
the most important tools to oppress people
224
682234
3516
što su najbitniji alati
za opresiju ljudi
za opresiju ljudi
11:37
in any dictatorship.
225
685750
2159
u bilo kojoj diktaturi.
11:39
That's why not many East Germans tried
226
687909
2603
Zbog ovoga se nije mnogo
Istočnih Nijemaca pokušavalo
Istočnih Nijemaca pokušavalo
11:42
to fight against the Communist regime.
227
690512
4284
boriti protiv komunističkog režima.
11:46
If yes, the Stasi often used a method
228
694796
4582
Ako jesu, Stasi je upotrebljavao metodu
11:51
which was really diabolic.
229
699378
2672
koja je bila doista opaka.
11:54
It was called Zersetzung,
230
702050
2186
Zvala se Zersetzung
11:56
and it's described in another guideline.
231
704236
3671
i opisana je u drugom vodiču.
11:59
The word is difficult to translate because it means
232
707907
2800
Ovu riječ je teško prevesti
jer izvorno
jer izvorno
12:02
originally "biodegradation."
233
710707
3898
znači "biodegradacija".
12:06
But actually, it's a quite accurate description.
234
714605
3354
Zapravo je to poprilično točan opis.
12:09
The goal was to destroy secretly
235
717959
3559
Cilj je bio tajno uništiti
12:13
the self-confidence of people,
236
721518
2890
samopouzdanje ljudi,
12:16
for example by damaging their reputation,
237
724408
3113
na primjer, kroz oštećivanje
njihovog ugleda,
njihovog ugleda,
12:19
by organizing failures in their work,
238
727521
3469
organizacijom neuspjeha
na njihovom poslu
na njihovom poslu
12:22
and by destroying their personal relationships.
239
730990
4630
i uništavanjem njihovih
osobnih veza.
osobnih veza.
12:27
Considering this, East Germany
was a very modern dictatorship.
was a very modern dictatorship.
240
735620
5375
S obzirom na to, Istočna Njemačka
bila je vrlo moderna diktatura.
bila je vrlo moderna diktatura.
12:32
The Stasi didn't try to arrest every dissident.
241
740995
4371
Stasi nije pokušavao
uhititi svakog disidenta.
uhititi svakog disidenta.
12:37
It preferred to paralyze them,
242
745366
3091
Radije su ih paralizirali,
12:40
and it could do so because
243
748457
2503
a mogli su to
12:42
it had access to so much personal information
244
750960
3350
jer su imali pristup
tolikim osobnim informacijama
tolikim osobnim informacijama
12:46
and to so many institutions.
245
754310
3930
i tolikom broju institucija.
12:50
Detaining someone was used only
246
758240
2272
Zadržavanje nekog koristilo
se samo
se samo
12:52
as a last resort.
247
760512
2530
kao posljednja mjera.
12:55
For this, the Stasi owned 17 remand prisons,
248
763042
3305
Za ovo, Stasi je posjedovao
17 istražnih zatvora,
17 istražnih zatvora,
12:58
one in every district.
249
766347
2517
jedan u svakom distriktu.
13:00
Here, the Stasi also developed
250
768864
2674
Ovdje je Stasi razvijao
13:03
quite modern methods of detention.
251
771538
4442
vrlo moderne metode zadržavanja.
13:07
Normally, the interrogation officer
252
775980
1783
Obično, istražitelj
13:09
didn't torture the prisoner.
253
777763
3463
nije mučio zatvorenika.
13:13
Instead, he used a sophisticated system
254
781226
2576
Umjesto toga, koristio je
profinjeni sustav
profinjeni sustav
13:15
of psychological pressure
255
783802
2138
psihološkog pritiska
13:17
in which strict isolation was central.
256
785940
4094
u čijem je središtu bila
stroga izolacija.
stroga izolacija.
13:22
Nearly no prisoner resisted
257
790034
2284
Gotovo nijedan zatvorenik
nije se odupro
nije se odupro
13:24
without giving a testimony.
258
792318
3229
davanju svjedočanstva.
13:27
If you have the occasion,
259
795547
2062
Ako budete imali priliku,
13:29
do visit the former Stasi prison in Berlin
260
797609
3451
posjetite Stasi zatvor u Berlinu
13:33
and attend a guided tour
with a former political prisoner
with a former political prisoner
261
801060
3589
i sudjelujte u obilasku s vodičem,
koji je bio politički zatvorenik
koji je bio politički zatvorenik
13:36
who will explain to you how this worked.
262
804649
2856
i koji će vam objasniti
kako je ovo funkcioniralo.
kako je ovo funkcioniralo.
13:39
One more question needs to be answered:
263
807505
3159
Još je jedno pitanje
potrebno odgovoriti:
potrebno odgovoriti:
13:42
If the Stasi were so well organized,
264
810664
2442
ako je Stasi bio tako dobro organiziran,
13:45
why did the Communist regime collapse?
265
813106
4333
zašto je komunistički režim pao?
13:49
First, in 1989, the leadership in East Germany
266
817439
4131
Prvo, 1989. godine,
vodstvo Istočne Njemačke
vodstvo Istočne Njemačke
13:53
was uncertain what to do against
267
821570
2261
nije bilo sigurno što učiniti oko
13:55
the growing protest of people.
268
823831
2937
rastućeg prosvjeda ljudi.
13:58
It was especially confused
269
826768
2351
Posebno ih je zbunjivalo to
14:01
because in the mother country of socialism,
270
829119
2771
jer je u matičnoj državi socijalizma,
14:03
the Soviet Union,
271
831890
1520
Sovjetskom Savezu,
14:05
a more liberal policy took place.
272
833410
3383
uspostavljena liberalnija politika.
14:08
In addition, the regime was dependent
273
836793
2417
Nadalje, režim je ovisio
14:11
on the loans from the West.
274
839210
3392
o zajmovima od Zapada.
14:14
Therefore, no order to crash down the uprising
275
842602
2548
Stoga, Stasi nije dobio naredbu
14:17
was given to the Stasi.
276
845150
3077
o rušenju ustanka.
14:20
Secondly, in the Communist ideology,
277
848227
3633
Drugo, u komunističkoj ideologiji
14:23
there's no place for criticism.
278
851860
2653
nema mjesta kritici.
14:26
Instead, the leadership stuck to the belief
279
854513
2307
Umjesto toga,
vodstvo se držalo vjerovanja
vodstvo se držalo vjerovanja
14:28
that socialism is a perfect system,
280
856820
2794
da je socijalizam savršen sustav,
14:31
and the Stasi had to confirm that, of course.
281
859614
4251
a Stasi je to, naravno, morao potvrditi.
14:35
The consequence was
282
863865
2361
Posljedica ovoga jest
14:38
that despite all the information,
283
866226
2496
da usprkos svim informacijama,
14:40
the regime couldn't analyze its real problems,
284
868722
4164
režim nije mogao analizirati
svoje prave probleme
svoje prave probleme
14:44
and therefore it couldn't solve them.
285
872886
2685
te ih nije mogao ni riješiti.
14:47
In the end, the Stasi died
286
875571
2704
Na kraju, Stasi je izdahnuo
14:50
because of the structures
287
878275
1793
zbog struktura
14:52
that it was charged with protecting.
288
880068
3720
koje je trebao štititi.
14:55
The ending of the Stasi
289
883788
2070
Kraj Stasija
14:57
was something tragic,
290
885858
2047
bio je nešto tragično
14:59
because these officers
291
887905
2059
jer su ovi časnici
15:01
were kept busy during the peaceful revolution
292
889964
3068
bili zaposleni tijekom
mirne revolucije
mirne revolucije
15:05
with only one thing:
293
893032
1975
samo s jednom stvari:
15:07
to destroy the documents
294
895007
2653
uništavanjem dokumenata
15:09
they had produced during decades.
295
897660
3691
koje su stvarali desetljećima.
15:13
Fortunately,
296
901351
1918
Nasreću,
15:15
they had been stopped by human rights activists.
297
903269
3537
zaustavili su ih aktivisti za
ljudska prava.
ljudska prava.
15:18
That's why today we can use the files
298
906806
2926
Zato danas možemo koristiti te dokumente
15:21
to get a better understanding
299
909732
1624
kako bismo bolje razumjeli
15:23
of how a surveillance state functions.
300
911356
2780
kako funkcionira državni nadzor.
15:26
Thank you.
301
914136
1997
Hvala.
(Pljesak)
15:28
(Applause)
302
916133
4306
15:36
Bruno Giussani: Thank you. Thank you very much.
303
924518
6060
Bruno Giussani: Hvala. Puno hvala.
15:42
So Hubertus, I want to ask you a couple of questions
304
930578
2724
Dakle, Hubertus,
želim Vas pitati par pitanja
želim Vas pitati par pitanja
15:45
because I have here Der Spiegel from last week.
305
933302
2788
jer ovdje imam Der Spiegel
od prošlog tjedna.
od prošlog tjedna.
15:48
"Mein Nachbar NSA." My neighbor, the NSA.
306
936090
4874
"Mein Nachbar NSA". Moj susjed, NSA.
15:52
And you just told us about my neighbor,
307
940964
2631
Upravo ste nam rekli
o našem susjedu,
o našem susjedu,
15:55
the spies and the informant from East Germany.
308
943595
2988
o špijunima i doušnicima
Istočne Njemačke.
Istočne Njemačke.
15:58
So there is a direct link between these two stories
309
946583
2700
Ima li izravne veze između
ove dvije priče
ove dvije priče
16:01
or there isn't?
310
949283
1878
ili nema?
Koja je Vaša reakcija kao povjesničara
kada ovo vidite?
kada ovo vidite?
16:03
What's your reaction as a
historian when you see this?
historian when you see this?
311
951161
2022
16:05
Hubertus Knabe: I think there are
312
953183
1725
Hubertus Knabe: Mislim da
16:06
several aspects to mention.
313
954908
1903
treba spomenuti nekoliko aspekata.
16:08
At first, I think there's a difference
314
956811
3066
Prvo, mislim da postoji razlika
16:11
of why you are collecting this data.
315
959877
4088
između toga zašto se skupljaju podatci.
16:15
Are you doing that for protecting your people
316
963965
2318
Činite li to da zaštitite svoje ljude
16:18
against terrorist attacks,
317
966283
1547
od terorističkih napada
16:19
or are you doing that for oppressing your people?
318
967830
2770
ili to činite kako bi vršili
opresiju nad svojim ljudima?
opresiju nad svojim ljudima?
16:22
So that makes a fundamental difference.
319
970600
1942
Ovo čini fundamentalnu razliku.
16:24
But on the other hand,
320
972542
2349
No, s druge strane,
16:26
also in a democracy, these
instruments can be abused,
instruments can be abused,
321
974891
4319
u demokraciji je ove instrumente
moguće zloupotrijebiti
moguće zloupotrijebiti
16:31
and that is something where we really have
322
979210
2166
i toga moramo biti svjesni
16:33
to be aware to stop that,
323
981376
1385
kako bi to zaustavili
16:34
and that also the intelligence services
324
982761
2873
te da obavještajne službe
16:37
are respecting the rules we have.
325
985634
3121
poštuju pravila koja imamo.
16:40
The third point, probably,
326
988755
1500
Treće, vjerojatno,
16:42
we really can be happy that we live in a democracy,
327
990255
3288
možemo biti sretni što živimo
u demokraciji
u demokraciji
16:45
because you can be sure that Russia and China
328
993543
3680
jer možete biti sigurni
da Rusija i Kina
da Rusija i Kina
16:49
are doing the same,
329
997223
1532
čine istu stvar,
16:50
but nobody speaks about that
330
998755
1566
ali nitko o tome ne priča
16:52
because nobody could do that.
331
1000321
2291
jer nitko ne smije.
16:54
(Applause)
332
1002612
4964
(Pljesak)
17:01
BG: When the story came out first,
333
1009398
2053
BG: Kada je priča
izašla na vidjelo,
izašla na vidjelo,
17:03
last July, last year,
334
1011451
2195
prošlog srpnja, prošle godine,
17:05
you filed a criminal complaint
335
1013646
2828
uložili ste kaznenu tužbu
17:08
with a German tribunal. Why?
336
1016474
2980
na Njemačkom sudu. Zašto?
17:11
HK: Yeah, I did so because of
the second point I mentioned,
the second point I mentioned,
337
1019454
3213
HK: Da, učinio sam to zbog
druge stvari koju sam spomenuo,
druge stvari koju sam spomenuo,
17:14
that I think especially in a democracy,
338
1022667
2897
što smatram da,
posebno u demokraciji,
posebno u demokraciji,
17:17
the rules are for everybody.
339
1025564
3458
pravila vrijede za sve.
17:21
They are made for everybody, so it's not allowed
340
1029022
2364
Napravljena su za sve,
dakle nije dozovljeno da
dakle nije dozovljeno da
17:23
that any institution doesn't respect the rules.
341
1031386
3791
ijedna institucija ne poštuje pravila.
17:27
In the criminal code of Germany, it's written
342
1035177
1978
U Kaznenom zakonu Njemačke piše
17:29
that it's not allowed to tap somebody
343
1037155
1855
da nije dozvoljeno prisluškivati nekoga
17:31
without the permission of the judge.
344
1039010
2388
bez dopuštenja sudca.
17:33
Fortunately, it's written in
the criminal code of Germany,
the criminal code of Germany,
345
1041398
3821
Nasreću, to piše u Kaznenom
zakonu Njemačke
zakonu Njemačke
17:37
so if it's not respected, then I think
346
1045219
3931
stoga ako se ne poštuje,
onda smatram
onda smatram
17:41
an investigation is necessary,
347
1049150
1896
da je potrebna istraga
17:43
and it took a very long time that
348
1051046
1979
i trebalo je puno vremena da
17:45
the public prosecutor of Germany started this,
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javni tužitelj Njemačke ovo pokrene,
17:47
and he started it only in the case of Angela Merkel,
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a pokrenuo je samo u slučaju
Angele Merkel,
Angele Merkel,
17:50
and not in the case of all the
other people living in Germany.
other people living in Germany.
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ali ne i u slučaju svih drugih
ljudi koji žive u Njemačkoj.
ljudi koji žive u Njemačkoj.
17:53
BG: That doesn't surprise me because —
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BG: Ovo me ne iznenađuje zbog —
17:56
(Applause) —
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(Pljesak) —
17:58
because of the story you told.
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zbog priče koju ste ispričali.
18:01
Seen from the outside, I live outside of Germany,
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Gledano izvana,
živim izvan Njemačke
živim izvan Njemačke
18:04
and I expected the Germans to react
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i očekujem da Nijemci reagiraju
18:05
much more strongly, immediately.
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mnogo snažnije, odmah.
18:09
And instead, the reaction really came only
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Umjesto toga,
reakcija je došla samo
reakcija je došla samo
18:11
when Chancellor Merkel was revealed
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kada se otkrilo prisluškivanje
kancelarke Merkel.
kancelarke Merkel.
18:13
as being wiretapped. Why so?
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Zašto?
18:17
HK: I take it as a good sign,
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HK: Vidim to kao dobar znak
18:19
because people feel secure in this democracy.
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jer se ljudi osjećaju sigurno
u ovoj demokraciji.
u ovoj demokraciji.
18:23
They aren't afraid that they will be arrested,
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Ne boje se uhićenja,
18:25
and if you leave this hall after the conference,
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a kada napustite ovu dvoranu
nakon konferencije,
nakon konferencije,
18:28
nobody has to be afraid that the secret police
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nitko se ne mora bojati
da tajna policija
da tajna policija
18:31
is standing out and is arresting you.
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stoji ispred i da će vas uhititi.
18:33
So that's a good sign, I think.
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Tako da je to dobar znak.
18:35
People are not really scared, as they could be.
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Ljudi nisu uplašeni kao što bi mogli biti.
18:38
But of course, I think, the institutions
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Naravno, mislim da su institucije
18:42
are responsible to stop illegal actions
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odgovorne za zaustavljanje
nezakonitih djelovanja
nezakonitih djelovanja
18:45
in Germany or wherever they happen.
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u Njemačkoj ili bilo gdje drugdje.
18:48
BG: A personal question,
and this is the last one.
and this is the last one.
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BG: Osobno pitanje,
a ovo je i posljednje.
a ovo je i posljednje.
18:51
There has been a debate in Germany about
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U Njemačkoj se razvila rasprava o
18:53
granting asylum to Edward Snowden.
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davanju azila Edwardu Snowdenu.
18:55
Would you be in favor or against?
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Jeste li za ili protiv?
18:58
HK: Oh, that's a difficult question,
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HK: Oh, ovo je teško pitanje,
18:59
but if you ask me,
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ali ako mene pitate
19:01
and if I answer honestly,
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i ako iskreno odgovaram,
19:03
I would give him the asylum,
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dao bih mu azil
19:04
because I think it was really brave what he did,
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jer vjerujem da je to što je učinio
doista hrabro
doista hrabro
19:06
and he destroyed his whole life
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i uništio je svoj čitav život,
19:09
and his family and everything.
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svoju obitelj i sve.
19:11
So I think, for these people,
we should do something,
we should do something,
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Zato smatram, zbog tih ljudi,
da bismo trebali nešto učiniti,
da bismo trebali nešto učiniti,
19:14
and especially if you see the German history,
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a posebno ako pogledate
njemačku povijest,
njemačku povijest,
19:18
where so many people had to escape
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gdje je toliko ljudi moralo bježati
19:21
and they asked for asylum in other countries
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i tražiti azil u drugim državama
19:23
and they didn't get it,
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i nisu ga dobivali,
19:24
so it would be a good sign to give him asylum.
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tako da bi bio dobar znak
dati ga njemu.
dati ga njemu.
19:27
(Applause)
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(Pljesak)
19:29
BG: Hubertus, thank you very much.
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BG: Hubertus, puno Vam hvala.
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Hubertus Knabe - HistorianHubertus Knabe studies the history of torture, oppression and surveillance in former East Germany.
Why you should listen
Hubertus Knabe is a historian and the scientific director of Berlin-Hohenschönhausen Memorial, where he studies the inner workings of the East German Ministry of State Security (MfS) -- or Stasi -- between 1945 and 1989. The memorial, once the main remand prison used by the Stasi, is devoted to raising awareness of the brutal oppression that once stemmed from the agency. Before the fall of the Berlin Wall Knabe was under surveillance himself, for smuggling banned books from the West into East Germany. He is the author of over a dozen books on German history, including 17. Juni 1953 - Ein deutscher Aufstand.
More profile about the speakerHubertus Knabe | Speaker | TED.com