TEDxZurich
Alexander Wagner: What really motivates people to be honest in business
亚历山大·瓦格纳: 人们诚实经商的动因
Filmed:
Readability: 4
1,661,864 views
每年，约七分之一的大公司舞弊欺诈。为探明原因，亚历山大·瓦格纳（Alexander Wagner）带我们探索了正直背后的经济、道德和心理。根据企业欺骗的轨迹，他将带我们了解人们行为背后的动因。
Alexander Wagner - Economist
Alexander Wagner balances two passions: the thrill of seeking knowledge about fundamentals of human behavior for knowledge's sake, and the desire to apply insights in the real world and to improve the workings of markets and organizations. Full bio
Alexander Wagner balances two passions: the thrill of seeking knowledge about fundamentals of human behavior for knowledge's sake, and the desire to apply insights in the real world and to improve the workings of markets and organizations. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
How many companies
have you interacted with today?
have you interacted with today?
0
760
3440
你今天和多少公司有过接触？
00:17
Well, you got up in the morning,
1
5240
1656
早晨起床，
洗澡，
00:18
took a shower,
2
6920
1215
洗头，
00:20
washed your hair,
3
8160
1256
吹干头发，
00:21
used a hair dryer,
4
9440
1536
吃早餐，
00:23
ate breakfast --
5
11000
1216
吃麦片、水果、酸奶等等，
00:24
ate cereals, fruit, yogurt, whatever --
6
12240
1858
喝咖啡，
00:26
had coffee --
7
14122
1214
喝茶。
00:27
tea.
8
15360
1376
乘公共交通到这儿，
00:28
You took public transport to come here,
9
16760
1976
或者开着私家车。
00:30
or maybe used your private car.
10
18760
1840
00:33
You interacted with the company
that you work for or that you own.
that you work for or that you own.
11
21520
3560
你会接触你上班的公司
或者是你开办的的公司。
或者是你开办的的公司。
00:38
You interacted with your clients,
12
26160
1960
你和客户打交道，
00:40
your customers,
13
28760
1200
和消费者接触，
00:42
and so on and so forth.
14
30640
1256
等等。
我相信至少有七个公司，
00:43
I'm pretty sure there are
at least seven companies
at least seven companies
15
31920
3616
00:47
you've interacted with today.
16
35560
1760
你今天接触了。
00:49
Let me tell you a stunning statistic.
17
37960
2000
让我分享一个惊人的数据。
00:52
One out of seven
large, public corporations
large, public corporations
18
40840
4376
七分之一的大型公立公司
每年都会实行诈骗。
00:57
commit fraud every year.
19
45240
2240
01:00
This is a US academic study
that looks at US companies --
that looks at US companies --
20
48400
3416
这是针对在美公司的学术研究，
我觉得这一点在欧洲应该也是一样的。
01:03
I have no reason to believe
that it's different in Europe.
that it's different in Europe.
21
51840
3200
01:07
This is a study that looks
at both detected and undetected fraud
at both detected and undetected fraud
22
55480
4216
该研究包括
所有已知和未知的诈骗，
所有已知和未知的诈骗，
使用的是统计方法。
01:11
using statistical methods.
23
59720
1736
01:13
This is not petty fraud.
24
61480
1720
我说的不是小型诈骗，
这些欺诈导致公司的股东，
01:16
These frauds cost
the shareholders of these companies,
the shareholders of these companies,
25
64120
2856
01:19
and therefore society,
26
67000
1256
以及社会
每年损失3800亿美元。
01:20
on the order of
380 billion dollars per year.
380 billion dollars per year.
27
68280
3600
我们每个人都可以想到一些例子，
01:24
We can all think of some examples, right?
28
72960
2216
比如汽车行业造假不再是秘密，
01:27
The car industry's secrets
aren't quite so secret anymore.
aren't quite so secret anymore.
29
75200
3800
01:31
Fraud has become a feature,
30
79800
3296
对于金融服务业，
诈骗成为了特点，
01:35
not a bug,
31
83120
1216
01:36
of the financial services industry.
32
84360
1936
而不是错误。
01:38
That's not me who's claiming that,
33
86320
2216
不只我一个人如此控诉，
01:40
that's the president
of the American Finance Association
of the American Finance Association
34
88560
3256
美国金融协会的主席
01:43
who stated that
in his presidential address.
in his presidential address.
35
91840
2936
在就职演讲时也提到过。
01:46
That's a huge problem
if you think about, especially,
if you think about, especially,
36
94800
2736
这是一个很严重的问题，
01:49
an economy like Switzerland,
37
97560
1696
像瑞士一样的经济体，
01:51
which relies so much on the trust
put into its financial industry.
put into its financial industry.
38
99280
4200
很大程度上依赖于金融行业的诚信。
01:56
On the other hand,
39
104960
1216
另一方面，
01:58
there are six out of seven companies
who actually remain honest
who actually remain honest
40
106200
3536
尽管面临着各种诱惑，
02:01
despite all temptations
to start engaging in fraud.
to start engaging in fraud.
41
109760
3840
剩余七分之六的公司依然保持诚信。
02:06
There are whistle-blowers
like Michael Woodford,
like Michael Woodford,
42
114240
2296
还有像迈克尔·伍德福德
一样的告密者，
一样的告密者，
02:08
who blew the whistle on Olympus.
43
116560
2336
他揭露了奥林巴斯的欺诈行为。
这些告密者冒着丢掉工作，
02:10
These whistle-blowers risk their careers,
44
118920
2696
02:13
their friendships,
45
121640
1216
失去朋友的风险，
只为揭露真相。
02:14
to bring out the truth
about their companies.
about their companies.
46
122880
2136
还有记者安娜·波利特科夫斯卡娅，
02:17
There are journalists
like Anna Politkovskaya
like Anna Politkovskaya
47
125040
2616
02:19
who risk even their lives
to report human rights violations.
to report human rights violations.
48
127680
3856
冒着生命危险揭露人权侵犯行为，
02:23
She got killed --
49
131560
1216
她被暗杀了——
02:24
every year,
50
132800
1216
每年，
约100名记者被杀，
02:26
around 100 journalists get killed
51
134040
1656
02:27
because of their conviction
to bring out the truth.
to bring out the truth.
52
135720
2720
就因为他们揭露了真相。
02:32
So in my talk today,
53
140040
1256
所以今天，
我想和你们分享一些我的观点，
02:33
I want to share with you
some insights I've obtained and learned
some insights I've obtained and learned
54
141320
3496
02:36
in the last 10 years
of conducting research in this.
of conducting research in this.
55
144840
3296
这是通过过去十年研究得到的。
02:40
I'm a researcher,
a scientist working with economists,
a scientist working with economists,
56
148160
3496
我是研究人员，一个和经济学家，
02:43
financial economists,
57
151680
1336
金融学家，
02:45
ethicists, neuroscientists,
58
153040
2056
伦理学家，神经学家，
还有律师合作的科学家。
02:47
lawyers and others
59
155120
1336
02:48
trying to understand
what makes humans tick,
what makes humans tick,
60
156480
2096
试图去寻找行为背后的动因，
02:50
and how can we address this issue
of fraud in corporations
of fraud in corporations
61
158600
4776
以及我们应如何杜绝公司欺诈的现象，
02:55
and therefore contribute
to the improvement of the world.
to the improvement of the world.
62
163400
3160
从而促进世界的进步。
02:59
I want to start by sharing with you
two very distinct visions
two very distinct visions
63
167280
3536
我将从关于人们的行为
的两种不同视角展开。
03:02
of how people behave.
64
170840
1816
03:04
First, meet Adam Smith,
65
172680
1840
首先，从亚当·斯密讲起，
03:07
founding father of modern economics.
66
175200
1960
他是现代经济学之父。
03:10
His basic idea was that if everybody
behaves in their own self-interests,
behaves in their own self-interests,
67
178280
4296
他的基本观点是
如果每个人都追逐个人利益，
如果每个人都追逐个人利益，
03:14
that's good for everybody in the end.
68
182600
2520
最后大家都能受益。
03:18
Self-interest isn't
a narrowly defined concept
a narrowly defined concept
69
186080
3056
自利不是一个狭义的概念，
03:21
just for your immediate utility.
70
189160
1936
它并不是短期的利益，
03:23
It has a long-run implication.
71
191120
1936
它具有长远的意义。
03:25
Let's think about that.
72
193080
1480
想想看，
03:27
Think about this dog here.
73
195080
2016
想想这只小狗。
03:29
That might be us.
74
197120
1200
我们也会这样。
03:31
There's this temptation --
75
199440
1256
眼前有一个诱惑，
03:32
I apologize to all vegetarians, but --
76
200720
2376
我向素食主义者道歉，
03:35
(Laughter)
77
203120
1016
（笑声）
03:36
Dogs do like the bratwurst.
78
204160
1696
但小狗确实喜欢吃香肠。
03:37
(Laughter)
79
205880
2376
（笑声）
03:40
Now, the straight-up,
self-interested move here
self-interested move here
80
208280
3096
自利促使它走到这里
03:43
is to go for that.
81
211400
1576
来拿香肠。
03:45
So my friend Adam here might jump up,
82
213000
2936
根据亚当·斯密的理论，
它会跃起，
它会跃起，
03:47
get the sausage and thereby ruin
all this beautiful tableware.
all this beautiful tableware.
83
215960
3360
去拿香肠然后毁坏了精致的餐具。
03:52
But that's not what Adam Smith meant.
84
220000
1816
但这不是亚当斯密的本意。
03:53
He didn't mean
disregard all consequences --
disregard all consequences --
85
221840
2656
他不无视一切后果，
03:56
to the contrary.
86
224520
1216
恰恰相反，
03:57
He would have thought,
87
225760
1256
他会想到，
这可能会产生负面影响，
03:59
well, there may be negative consequences,
88
227040
2016
04:01
for example,
89
229080
1216
例如，
04:02
the owner might be angry with the dog
90
230320
3096
狗的主人可能会很愤怒，
04:05
and the dog, anticipating that,
might not behave in this way.
might not behave in this way.
91
233440
3600
狗在预想到这一点之后
就不会这么做了。
就不会这么做了。
04:09
That might be us,
92
237840
1256
我们也是如此，
04:11
weighing the benefits
and costs of our actions.
and costs of our actions.
93
239120
3056
在成本和效益之间进行权衡。
04:14
How does that play out?
94
242200
1240
结果是怎么样的呢？
04:15
Well, many of you, I'm sure,
95
243960
1976
我相信很多人
04:17
have in your companies,
96
245960
1536
在你们的公司里，
04:19
especially if it's a large company,
97
247520
1816
特别是那些大公司，
04:21
a code of conduct.
98
249360
1656
都有行为规范。
04:23
And then if you behave
according to that code of conduct,
according to that code of conduct,
99
251040
3416
如果你遵守了，
你可能会得到奖金。
04:26
that improves your chances
of getting a bonus payment.
of getting a bonus payment.
100
254480
3176
04:29
And on the other hand,
if you disregard it,
if you disregard it,
101
257680
2135
但是如果你违反了，
04:31
then there are higher chances
of not getting your bonus
of not getting your bonus
102
259839
2737
你有可能会得不到奖金，
04:34
or its being diminished.
103
262600
1536
或者奖金数额减少。
04:36
In other words,
104
264160
1256
也就是说，
04:37
this is a very economic motivation
105
265440
1816
这个经济动机
04:39
of trying to get people to be more honest,
106
267280
2776
使人们更加诚实，
04:42
or more aligned with
the corporation's principles.
the corporation's principles.
107
270080
3360
或更遵守公司守则。
04:46
Similarly, reputation is a very
powerful economic force, right?
powerful economic force, right?
108
274240
5256
声誉同样是很重要的动机。
04:51
We try to build a reputation,
109
279520
1536
我们试图建立声誉，
04:53
maybe for being honest,
110
281080
1416
也许在诚信方面，
04:54
because then people
trust us more in the future.
trust us more in the future.
111
282520
2400
这样人们在将来会更信任我们。
04:57
Right?
112
285960
1216
对吗？
亚当·斯密谈过一个面包店
04:59
Adam Smith talked about the baker
113
287200
2096
05:01
who's not producing good bread
out of his benevolence
out of his benevolence
114
289320
3776
生产优质面包
05:05
for those people who consume the bread,
115
293120
3016
不是对现有的顾客的善良，
05:08
but because he wants to sell
more future bread.
more future bread.
116
296160
3040
而是他想在未来卖更多面包。
05:12
In my research, we find, for example,
117
300160
2216
我们的研究发现，
05:14
at the University of Zurich,
118
302400
1376
比如，在苏黎世大学，
05:15
that Swiss banks
who get caught up in media,
who get caught up in media,
119
303800
4200
那些引发媒体报道的瑞士银行，
05:20
and in the context, for example,
120
308720
1776
可能由于
05:22
of tax evasion, of tax fraud,
121
310520
1536
偷税漏税
05:24
have bad media coverage.
122
312080
1736
引发负面的媒体报道。
05:25
They lose net new money in the future
123
313840
2736
他们损失了未来的收益，
05:28
and therefore make lower profits.
124
316600
1616
因此获得了更少的利润。
05:30
That's a very powerful reputational force.
125
318240
2360
这就是名誉的力量。
05:34
Benefits and costs.
126
322200
1600
收益和代价。
05:37
Here's another viewpoint of the world.
127
325120
2576
还有一个观点,
05:39
Meet Immanuel Kant,
128
327720
1536
来自伊曼努尔·康德，
05:41
18th-century German philosopher superstar.
129
329280
2760
18世纪德国哲学界的泰斗。
05:44
He developed this notion
130
332920
1616
他提出的观点是，
05:46
that independent of the consequences,
131
334560
3136
跟后果无关的行为，
05:49
some actions are just right
132
337720
2976
可能导致好的行为，
05:52
and some are just wrong.
133
340720
1696
也可能导致恶劣行为。
05:54
It's just wrong to lie, for example.
134
342440
3216
比如谎言就是错误的。
05:57
So, meet my friend Immanuel here.
135
345680
3136
根据康德的观点，
06:00
He knows that the sausage is very tasty,
136
348840
2816
尽管小狗知道香肠很美味，
06:03
but he's going to turn away
because he's a good dog.
because he's a good dog.
137
351680
2456
但它会离开，
因为这样才是正确的。
因为这样才是正确的。
06:06
He knows it's wrong to jump up
138
354160
2696
它知道跳上去是错误的行为，
06:08
and risk ruining
all this beautiful tableware.
all this beautiful tableware.
139
356880
2800
因为这可能打碎所有精美的餐具。
06:12
If you believe that people
are motivated like that,
are motivated like that,
140
360520
2416
如果你相信这种观点，
06:14
then all the stuff about incentives,
141
362960
2176
那么一切有关激励的东西，
06:17
all the stuff about code of conduct
and bonus systems and so on,
and bonus systems and so on,
142
365160
3776
一切行为准则还有奖金制度，
06:20
doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
143
368960
2176
都没什么意义了。
06:23
People are motivated
by different values perhaps.
by different values perhaps.
144
371160
4176
人们也许受不同的价值观驱动。
06:27
So, what are people actually motivated by?
145
375360
3376
那么什么才是
人们行为背后的真正动因呢？
人们行为背后的真正动因呢？
06:30
These two gentlemen here
have perfect hairdos,
have perfect hairdos,
146
378760
2176
这两位发型完美的大师，
06:32
but they give us
very different views of the world.
very different views of the world.
147
380960
4480
提供了截然不同的世界观。
06:37
What do we do with this?
148
385840
1256
我们该怎么办呢？
我是一个经济学家。
06:39
Well, I'm an economist
149
387120
1656
06:40
and we conduct so-called experiments
to address this issue.
to address this issue.
150
388800
4176
我们通过实验来说话，
06:45
We strip away facts
which are confusing in reality.
which are confusing in reality.
151
393000
3296
我们剔除生活中
那些匪夷所思的现象。
那些匪夷所思的现象。
06:48
Reality is so rich,
there is so much going on,
there is so much going on,
152
396320
2736
现实很丰满，它太丰富了，
06:51
it's almost impossible to know
what drives people's behavior really.
what drives people's behavior really.
153
399080
3960
我们几乎不可能找到
人们行为的真实动因。
人们行为的真实动因。
那么让我们一起做一个小实验。
06:55
So let's do a little experiment together.
154
403520
2720
想象一个场景。
06:58
Imagine the following situation.
155
406680
2600
07:02
You're in a room alone,
156
410400
2416
你一个人在房间里，
不像这个房间。
07:04
not like here.
157
412840
1536
07:06
There's a five-franc coin
like the one I'm holding up right now
like the one I'm holding up right now
158
414400
3440
你面前有一个五法郎硬币，
就像我手中
就像我手中
的这一枚一样。
07:10
in front of you.
159
418560
1576
07:12
Here are your instructions:
160
420160
1576
你需要
07:13
toss the coin four times,
161
421760
2480
掷四次硬币，
07:17
and then on a computer
terminal in front of you,
terminal in front of you,
162
425800
2416
然后你在面前的电脑上，
07:20
enter the number of times tails came up.
163
428240
3656
输入反面出现的次数。
07:23
This is the situation.
164
431920
1280
这就是整个过程。
07:25
Here's the rub.
165
433720
1216
现在有一个问题。
07:26
For every time that you announce
that you had a tails throw,
that you had a tails throw,
166
434960
3376
每当你说你掷出反面时，
你会得到五法郎。
07:30
you get paid five francs.
167
438360
1496
07:31
So if you say I had two tails throws,
168
439880
2536
如果你说你掷出两次反面，
你会得到十法郎。
07:34
you get paid 10 francs.
169
442440
2216
如果你说你没有掷出反面，
你的收益为零。
你的收益为零。
07:36
If you say you had zero,
you get paid zero francs.
you get paid zero francs.
170
444680
2936
07:39
If you say, "I had four tails throws,"
171
447640
2456
如果你说你掷出四次反面，
07:42
then you get paid 20 francs.
172
450120
2016
你会得到二十法郎。
这是匿名的，
07:44
It's anonymous,
173
452160
1256
没有人会看你在做什么，
07:45
nobody's watching what you're doing,
174
453440
1896
你也会匿名获得收益。
07:47
and you get paid that money anonymously.
175
455360
2336
07:49
I've got two questions for you.
176
457720
1477
我有两个问题。
07:51
(Laughter)
177
459760
1616
（笑声）
07:53
You know what's coming now, right?
178
461400
1640
你们知道我想问什么，对吗？
07:56
First, how would you behave
in that situation?
in that situation?
179
464000
3480
第一，你们在这个情境下会怎么做？
08:00
The second, look to your left
and look to your right --
and look to your right --
180
468240
2936
第二，环顾四周——
08:03
(Laughter)
181
471200
1016
（笑声）
08:04
and think about how
the person sitting next to you
the person sitting next to you
182
472240
2376
思考一下你身边坐着的人
会如何行动？
08:06
might behave in that situation.
183
474640
1656
08:08
We did this experiment for real.
184
476320
2136
我们的确进行了这个实验。
最近在苏黎世举办的那个
08:10
We did it at the Manifesta art exhibition
185
478480
2696
欧洲当代艺术双年展上，
08:13
that took place here in Zurich recently,
186
481200
2456
08:15
not with students in the lab
at the university
at the university
187
483680
2856
参与者不是大学实验室里的学生，
08:18
but with the real population,
188
486560
1776
而是普罗大众，
08:20
like you guys.
189
488360
1200
像你们一样。
08:22
First, a quick reminder of stats.
190
490080
2136
首先，让我们快速回顾一下数据。
如果你掷一枚普通的硬币四次，
08:24
If I throw the coin four times
and it's a fair coin,
and it's a fair coin,
191
492240
3576
08:27
then the probability
that it comes up four times tails
that it comes up four times tails
192
495840
4096
四次出现反面的概率，
08:31
is 6.25 percent.
193
499960
2400
是6.25%。
08:35
And I hope you can intuitively see
194
503080
1656
直观上，
08:36
that the probability that all four
of them are tails is much lower
of them are tails is much lower
195
504760
3376
四次都出现反面的概率，
08:40
than if two of them are tails, right?
196
508160
2120
远小于两次都出现反面。
现在有一些具体的数字。
08:42
Here are the specific numbers.
197
510760
1440
08:46
Here's what happened.
198
514039
1496
过程是这样的。
经过真实的实验。
08:47
People did this experiment for real.
199
515559
2201
08:50
Around 30 to 35 percent of people said,
200
518799
3336
30%到35%的人说，
08:54
"Well, I had four tails throws."
201
522159
2401
“我掷了四次反面。”
08:57
That's extremely unlikely.
202
525640
1816
那几乎是不可能的。
（笑声）
08:59
(Laughter)
203
527480
1936
09:01
But the really amazing thing here,
204
529440
3136
然而，这里最不可思议的事情，
09:04
perhaps to an economist,
205
532600
1296
对于一位经济学家而言，
09:05
is there are around 65 percent of people
who did not say I had four tails throws,
who did not say I had four tails throws,
206
533920
6536
是有65%的人说
他们没有掷出四次反面，
他们没有掷出四次反面，
09:12
even though in that situation,
207
540480
2176
即使在
09:14
nobody's watching you,
208
542680
2096
没有人监管的情况下，
09:16
the only consequence that's in place
209
544800
1936
并且唯一的结果是
09:18
is you get more money
if you say four than less.
if you say four than less.
210
546760
3336
如果你说你掷了四次
就可以得到更多的奖金。
就可以得到更多的奖金。
09:22
You leave 20 francs on the table
by announcing zero.
by announcing zero.
211
550120
3280
当你说你没有掷出反面时
你失去了20法郎。
你失去了20法郎。
09:26
I don't know whether
the other people all were honest
the other people all were honest
212
554040
2576
我不知道其他人是否诚实
09:28
or whether they also said a little bit
higher or lower than what they did
higher or lower than what they did
213
556640
3456
或者他们有没有虚报次数，
因为整个过程是匿名的。
09:32
because it's anonymous.
214
560120
1216
我们只观察结果的分布。
09:33
We only observed the distribution.
215
561360
1656
但要我说，
让我们再来掷一次硬币。
让我们再来掷一次硬币。
09:35
But what I can tell you --
and here's another coin toss.
and here's another coin toss.
216
563040
2656
好了，是反面，
09:37
There you go, it's tails.
217
565720
1496
09:39
(Laughter)
218
567240
1496
（笑声）
09:40
Don't check, OK?
219
568760
1456
不要检查结果好吗？
09:42
(Laughter)
220
570240
2816
（笑声）
09:45
What I can tell you
221
573080
1296
我想说的是，
09:46
is that not everybody behaved
like Adam Smith would have predicted.
like Adam Smith would have predicted.
222
574400
4440
并非所有人都按照
亚当·斯密的预测行动。
亚当·斯密的预测行动。
09:52
So what does that leave us with?
223
580840
1576
这意味着什么呢？
09:54
Well, it seems people are motivated
by certain intrinsic values
by certain intrinsic values
224
582440
4496
人们似乎是被
某种特定的内在价值驱动，
某种特定的内在价值驱动，
09:58
and in our research, we look at this.
225
586960
1800
我们在研究中观察了这一点。
10:01
We look at the idea that people have
so-called protected values.
so-called protected values.
226
589440
4480
我们观察到人们有
所谓的保护性价值观。
所谓的保护性价值观。
10:06
A protected value isn't just any value.
227
594760
2816
保护性价值观不同于平常的价值观。
它指你愿意为保护某种价值观
10:09
A protected value is a value
where you're willing to pay a price
where you're willing to pay a price
228
597600
5816
10:15
to uphold that value.
229
603440
1256
而付出代价。
10:16
You're willing to pay a price
to withstand the temptation to give in.
to withstand the temptation to give in.
230
604720
4440
你愿意为拒绝诱惑付出代价。
10:22
And the consequence is you feel better
231
610200
2656
结果就是你会更舒坦，
10:24
if you earn money in a way
that's consistent with your values.
that's consistent with your values.
232
612880
4296
如果你的生财之道
符合你的价值观。
符合你的价值观。
10:29
Let me show you this again
in the metaphor of our beloved dog here.
in the metaphor of our beloved dog here.
233
617200
4280
让我们再回到刚刚那只小狗的比喻。
10:34
If we succeed in getting the sausage
without violating our values,
without violating our values,
234
622600
4056
如果我们在没有
违背价值观的情况下拿到香肠，
违背价值观的情况下拿到香肠，
那么这个香肠的味道可能会更好。
10:38
then the sausage tastes better.
235
626680
1976
10:40
That's what our research shows.
236
628680
1480
这就是我们研究的结果。
10:42
If, on the other hand,
237
630720
1256
如果，从另一方面来看，
10:44
we do so --
238
632000
1256
我们
10:45
if we get the sausage
239
633280
1416
拿到了香肠，
10:46
and in doing so
we actually violate values,
we actually violate values,
240
634720
3456
但是违背了我们的价值观，
10:50
we value the sausage less.
241
638200
2976
我们认为香肠的味道更差。
10:53
Quantitatively, that's quite powerful.
242
641200
2456
定量来说，这是强有力的结论。
10:55
We can measure these protected values,
243
643680
2456
我们可以衡量这些保护性价值观，
10:58
for example,
244
646160
1216
例如，
10:59
by a survey measure.
245
647400
1920
通过一个调查。
11:02
Simple, nine-item survey that's quite
predictive in these experiments.
predictive in these experiments.
246
650360
5976
一个简单的九个问题
的调查就能证明实验结果。
的调查就能证明实验结果。
11:08
If you think about the average
of the population
of the population
247
656360
2336
人们的正常行为
11:10
and then there's
a distribution around it --
a distribution around it --
248
658720
2096
会符合一个曲线的分布。
每个人都是不一样的。
11:12
people are different,
we all are different.
we all are different.
249
660840
2040
11:15
People who have a set of protected values
250
663480
2976
有一套保护性价值观的人们，
11:18
that's one standard deviation
above the average,
above the average,
251
666480
4176
是一个高于平均水平的标准偏差，
当他们撒谎时，
实际效用是平时的75%。
实际效用是平时的75%。
11:22
they discount money they receive
by lying by about 25 percent.
by lying by about 25 percent.
252
670680
5056
11:27
That means a dollar received when lying
253
675760
3616
这意味着在没有任何激励
他们诚实行事的情况下，
他们诚实行事的情况下，
11:31
is worth to them only 75 cents
254
679400
2136
当他们得到1美元时，
11:33
without any incentives you put in place
for them to behave honestly.
for them to behave honestly.
255
681560
3696
撒谎让他们觉得这只值75美分。
这是他们的内在动机。
11:37
It's their intrinsic motivation.
256
685280
1736
11:39
By the way, I'm not a moral authority.
257
687040
1856
我不是道德权威，
11:40
I'm not saying I have
all these beautiful values, right?
all these beautiful values, right?
258
688920
2920
我并不拥有所有美德。
11:44
But I'm interested in how people behave
259
692440
1936
但我对人们的行动感兴趣，
以及我们如何利用人性的丰富性
11:46
and how we can leverage
that richness in human nature
that richness in human nature
260
694400
3376
11:49
to actually improve
the workings of our organizations.
the workings of our organizations.
261
697800
3440
来实际改善组织的运转很感兴趣。
11:54
So there are two
very, very different visions here.
very, very different visions here.
262
702400
3176
有两种截然不同的观点。
11:57
On the one hand,
263
705600
1336
一种，
成本和收益，
11:58
you can appeal to benefits and costs
264
706960
3016
12:02
and try to get people
to behave according to them.
to behave according to them.
265
710000
2656
你可以让人们
根据成本收益原则行动。
根据成本收益原则行动。
12:04
On the other hand,
266
712680
1616
另一种，
12:06
you can select people who have the values
267
714320
4016
选择价值观、
理想特质，
12:10
and the desirable
characteristics, of course --
characteristics, of course --
268
718360
2216
12:12
competencies that go
in line with your organization.
in line with your organization.
269
720600
3576
还有才华和你公司相一致的人。
12:16
I do not yet know where
these protected values really come from.
these protected values really come from.
270
724200
4216
我暂时还不知道
这些保护性价值观的来源。
这些保护性价值观的来源。
12:20
Is it nurture or is it nature?
271
728440
3376
不知道它是天生的还是后天培养的。
12:23
What I can tell you
272
731840
1376
我能告诉你们的是，
男女之间的分布几乎一致。
12:25
is that the distribution
looks pretty similar for men and women.
looks pretty similar for men and women.
273
733240
5096
12:30
It looks pretty similar
for those who had studied economics
for those who had studied economics
274
738360
3776
经济学专业和心理学专业
12:34
or those who had studied psychology.
275
742160
2360
的结果也很相近。
12:38
It looks even pretty similar
around different age categories
around different age categories
276
746000
3376
不同成人年龄段的结果
12:41
among adults.
277
749400
1216
也很类似。
但我不知道
这在人的一生中会如何发展，
这在人的一生中会如何发展，
12:42
But I don't know yet
how this develops over a lifetime.
how this develops over a lifetime.
278
750640
2656
12:45
That will be the subject
of future research.
of future research.
279
753320
3440
这会是未来研究的主题。
12:49
The idea I want to leave you with
280
757640
1656
我想告诉你们，
12:51
is it's all right to appeal to incentives.
281
759320
2776
要求奖励是没有问题的。
12:54
I'm an economist;
282
762120
1216
我是一个经济学家，
12:55
I certainly believe in the fact
that incentives work.
that incentives work.
283
763360
2920
我确信激励是有效的。
12:59
But do think about selecting
the right people
the right people
284
767400
4016
但是要确保选择正确的人，
而不是随便找一些人
就把激励放在那儿。
就把激励放在那儿。
13:03
rather than having people
and then putting incentives in place.
and then putting incentives in place.
285
771440
3496
13:06
Selecting the right people
with the right values
with the right values
286
774960
2256
选择拥有正确价值观的人
13:09
may go a long way
to saving a lot of trouble
to saving a lot of trouble
287
777240
3936
会为你的公司
省去很多麻烦，
13:13
and a lot of money
288
781200
1376
13:14
in your organizations.
289
782600
1736
还能节省成本。
13:16
In other words,
290
784360
1256
换句话说，
以人为先是值得的。
13:17
it will pay off to put people first.
291
785640
3760
谢谢。
13:22
Thank you.
292
790040
1216
（掌声）
13:23
(Applause)
293
791280
3640
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Alexander Wagner - EconomistAlexander Wagner balances two passions: the thrill of seeking knowledge about fundamentals of human behavior for knowledge's sake, and the desire to apply insights in the real world and to improve the workings of markets and organizations.
Why you should listen
Alexander Wagner has discovered that to most people, what matters is not only how much money they receive but also whether they behaved honestly to receive that money. As Swiss Finance Institute professor at the University of Zurich's Department of Banking and Finance, Wagner has taught corporate finance to thousands of eager students and hundreds of motivated executives, and he has helped shape governance systems of companies large and small. His recent research deals with how investors perceive managerial words and deeds … and with the stock market implications of the Trump election.
Alexander Wagner | Speaker | TED.com