ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Jon Ronson - Writer, filmmaker
Jon Ronson is a writer and documentary filmmaker who dips into every flavor of madness, extremism and obsession.

Why you should listen

For his latest book, So You've Been Publicly Shamed, Jon Ronson spent three years traveling the world and talking to people who'd been subjected to high-profile public shamings. Whatever their transgression, the response was to be faced by an angry mob, as Ronson calls them "collective outrage circles" devoted to tearing down said person from any position of power. It does not, Ronson suggests gently, reflect so well on society as a whole.

In a previous book, The Psychopath Test, Ronson explored the unnerving world of psychopaths -- a group that includes both incarcerated killers and, one of his subjects insists, plenty of CEOs. In his books, films and articles, Ronson explores madness and obsession of all kinds, from the US military's experiments in psychic warfare to the obscene and hate-filled yet Christian rap of the Insane Clown Posse. He wrote a column for the Guardian, hosted an essay program on Radio 4 in the United Kingdom, and contributes to This American Life.

More profile about the speaker
Jon Ronson | Speaker | TED.com
TED2012

Jon Ronson: Strange answers to the psychopath test

Jon Ronson:精神病測試的另類解答

Filmed:
23,550,108 views

是否有明確的界線可區隔瘋狂和清醒?藉由令人恐懼的演講方式,《精神病患測試》的作者 Jon Ronson,闡明兩者間的灰色地帶 (搭配 Julian Treasure 的現場混音和 Evan Grant 的動畫)。
- Writer, filmmaker
Jon Ronson is a writer and documentary filmmaker who dips into every flavor of madness, extremism and obsession. Full bio

Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.

00:15
This story故事 starts啟動: I was at a friend's朋友的 house,
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故事是這樣開頭的:我當時在一個朋友家,
00:19
and she had on her shelf a copy複製 of the DSMDSM manual手冊,
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她書櫃上有一本 DSM 手冊,
00:23
which哪一個 is the manual手冊 of mental心理 disorders障礙.
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也就是精神疾病診斷與統計手冊。
00:26
It lists名單 every一切 known已知 mental心理 disorder紊亂.
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裡頭列出每個已知的精神疾病。
00:29
And it used to be, back in the '50s, a very slim pamphlet小冊子.
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在 1950 年代的時候,這只是一本很薄的手冊。
00:32
And then it got bigger and bigger and bigger,
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接著它愈變愈厚
00:35
and now it's 886 pages網頁 long.
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現在它已經有 886 頁這麼多了。
00:38
And it lists名單 currently目前 374 mental心理 disorders障礙.
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目前列出 374 種精神疾病。
00:42
So I was leafing翻閱 through通過 it,
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我匆匆翻閱一下,
00:44
wondering想知道 if I had any mental心理 disorders障礙,
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好奇我有沒有任何精神疾病,
00:46
and it turns out I've got 12.
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結果我得了12種。
00:49
(Laughter笑聲)
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(笑聲)
00:50
I've got generalized一般性 anxiety焦慮 disorder紊亂,
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我有廣泛性焦慮症,
00:52
which哪一個 is a given特定.
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這大家都知道。
00:54
I've got nightmare惡夢 disorder紊亂,
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我有夢魘症,
00:55
which哪一個 is categorized分類
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這被歸類為
00:57
if you have recurrent復發 dreams of being存在 pursued追求的 or declared聲明 a failure失敗 --
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如果你定期作有關被追趕或者被稱為失敗者的夢 --
01:01
and all my dreams involve涉及 people chasing me down the street
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而我所有的夢都涉及人們在街上追趕我,
01:05
going, "You're a failure失敗."
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那麼:「你是個失敗者。」
01:07
(Laughter笑聲)
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(笑聲)
01:09
I've got parent-child親子 relational相關的 problems問題,
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我還有親子關係問題,
01:11
which哪一個 I blame my parents父母 for.
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這要怪到我父母頭上。
01:14
(Laughter笑聲)
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(笑聲)
01:15
I'm kidding開玩笑. I'm not kidding開玩笑.
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我在開玩笑。我是認真的。
01:18
I'm kidding開玩笑.
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我是在開玩笑。
01:19
And I've got malingering詐病.
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我還會裝病。
01:21
And I think it's actually其實 quite相當 rare罕見
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我覺得同時擁有
01:23
to have both malingering詐病 and generalized一般性 anxiety焦慮 disorder紊亂,
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詐病和廣泛性焦慮症是很不尋常的事,
01:26
because malingering詐病 tends趨向 to make me feel very anxious.
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因為詐病時容易使我感覺非常焦慮。
01:29
Anyway無論如何 I was looking through通過 this book,
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於是我當時在翻閱這本手冊,
01:30
wondering想知道 if I was much crazier瘋狂 than I thought I was,
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好奇我是否比想像中更瘋狂,
01:33
or maybe it's not a good idea理念 to diagnose診斷 yourself你自己 with a mental心理 disorder紊亂
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或者如果你不是受過訓練的專業人士,
01:37
if you're not a trained熟練 professional專業的,
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診斷你自己的精神疾病不是個好主意,
01:39
or maybe the psychiatry精神病學 profession職業 has a strange奇怪 desire慾望
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又或者精神病學有個奇怪的慾望
01:43
to label標籤 what's essentially實質上 normal正常 human人的 behavior行為 as a mental心理 disorder紊亂.
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將本來正常的人類行為貼上精神疾病的標籤。
01:49
I didn't know which哪一個 of these things was true真正,
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我不知道什麼才是真的,
01:50
but I thought it was kind of interesting有趣.
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但我覺得這滿有趣的。
01:52
And I thought maybe I should meet遇到 a critic評論家 of psychiatry精神病學
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我想說或許我可以跟精神學批判家見面,
01:55
to get their view視圖.
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了解他們的想法。
01:56
Which哪一個 is how I ended結束 up having lunch午餐 with the Scientologists科學論.
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這也是我為什麼最後會和山達基教徒吃午餐的原因。
02:01
It was a man called Brian布賴恩
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這位男子名叫 Brian,
02:03
who runs運行 a crack裂紋 team球隊 of Scientologists科學論
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他經營一個有聲有色的山達基教徒團隊,
02:05
who are determined決心 to destroy破壞 psychiatry精神病學 wherever哪裡 it lies.
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他們下定決心要摧毀所有的精神病學。
02:10
They're called the CCHRCCHR.
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他們被稱為國際公民人權委員會。
02:11
And I said to him, "Can you prove證明 to me
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我跟他說:「你能向我證明
02:14
that psychiatry精神病學 is a pseudo-science偽科學 that can't be trusted信任?"
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精神病學是不能相信的假科學嗎?」
02:18
And he said, "Yes, we can prove證明 it to you."
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他說:「可以,我們可以證明給你看。」
02:20
And I said, "How?"
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我說:「怎麼做?」
02:22
And he said, "We're going to introduce介紹 you to Tony托尼."
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他說:「我們會介紹你給 Tony。」
02:26
And I said, "Who's誰是 Tony托尼?"
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我說:「Tony 是誰?」
02:28
And he said, "Tony's托尼的 in Broadmoor布羅德莫."
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他說:「Tony 在布羅德莫。」
02:31
Now Broadmoor布羅德莫 is Broadmoor布羅德莫 Hospital醫院.
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布羅德莫指的是布羅德莫醫院。
02:34
It used to be known已知 as the Broadmoor布羅德莫 Asylum避難所 for the Criminally刑事責任 Insane.
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以前被稱為布羅德莫精神病院,用來監禁發瘋的罪犯。
02:39
It's where they send發送 the serial串行 killers殺手
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連續殺人犯
02:41
and the people who can't help themselves他們自己.
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還有不能自救的人們被送到這裡。
02:43
And I said to Brian布賴恩, "What did Tony托尼 do?"
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我跟 Brian說;「Tony 做了什麼事?」
02:46
And he said, "Hardly幾乎不 anything.
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他說:「沒做什麼。
02:49
He beat擊敗 someone有人 up or something,
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他打了某人一頓之類的,
02:52
and he decided決定 to fake madness瘋狂 to get out of a prison監獄 sentence句子.
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然後他決定假裝他發瘋了所以不用坐牢。
02:57
But he faked偽造 it too well, and now he's stuck卡住 in Broadmoor布羅德莫
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但是他裝得太像了,現在他被困在布羅德莫,
03:02
and nobody沒有人 will believe he's sane明智的.
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沒有人相信他是神智正常。
03:04
Do you want us to try and get you into Broadmoor布羅德莫 to meet遇到 Tony托尼?"
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你想要我們試著將你送進布羅德莫醫院和 Tony 見面嗎?」
03:08
So I said, "Yes, please."
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我回答:「是的,請這麼做。」
03:10
So I got the train培養 to Broadmoor布羅德莫.
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於是我火車到布羅德莫。
03:12
I began開始 to yawn打哈欠 uncontrollably失控 around Kempton肯普頓 Park公園,
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當我到肯普頓公園附近時,我開始無法控制地打呵欠。
03:16
which哪一個 apparently顯然地 is what dogs小狗 also do when anxious --
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很明顯就像狗焦慮時會做的事 --
03:19
they yawn打哈欠 uncontrollably失控.
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牠們不能控制地打呵欠。
03:21
And we got to Broadmoor布羅德莫.
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於是我們到了醫院。
03:22
And I got taken採取 through通過 gate after gate after gate after gate
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我被引導通過一道接著一道接著一道的大門,
03:27
into the wellness健康 center中央,
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才進入健康中心,
03:29
which哪一個 is where you get to meet遇到 the patients耐心.
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你可以在這裡和病人見面。
03:30
It looks容貌 like a giant巨人 Hampton漢普頓 Inn旅店.
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裝潢看起來像是超大的漢普頓飯店。
03:34
It's all peach桃子 and pine松樹 and calming平靜 colors顏色.
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所間皆是粉橘色,木頭色和令人安穩的顏色。
03:38
And the only bold膽大 colors顏色 are the reds紅魔 of the panic恐慌 buttons鈕扣.
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唯一大膽的顏色是緊急按鈕的紅色。
03:43
And the patients耐心 started開始 drifting漂流 in.
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接著病患開始進來。
03:46
And they were quite相當 overweight超重 and wearing穿著 sweatpants運動褲
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他們明顯地過胖,穿著寬鬆的運動長褲,
03:51
and quite相當 docile溫順 looking.
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看起來很溫馴。
03:53
And Brian布賴恩 the Scientologist科學論 whispered低聲道 to me,
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身為山達基教徒的 Brian 在我耳邊低聲說,
03:55
"They're medicated,"
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「他們有接受藥物控制。」
03:57
which哪一個 to the Scientologists科學論 is like the worst最差 evil邪惡 in the world世界,
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這對山達基教徒們就像是世界上最邪惡的事,
04:01
but I'm thinking思維 it's probably大概 a good idea理念.
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但我心想這或許是最好的做法。
04:03
(Laughter笑聲)
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(笑聲)
04:05
And then Brian布賴恩 said, "Here's這裡的 Tony托尼."
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接著 Brian 說:「Tony 來了。」
04:08
And a man was walking步行 in.
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於是一個男人走進來。
04:10
And he wasn't overweight超重, he was in very good physical物理 shape形狀.
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他沒有過胖,他體態非常好。
04:14
And he wasn't wearing穿著 sweatpants運動褲,
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他也沒有穿寬鬆的運動褲,
04:15
he was wearing穿著 a pinstriped細條紋 suit適合.
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他穿著細直條紋的西裝。
04:18
And he had his arm outstretched伸開
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而且他的手臂向外延展,
04:20
like someone有人 out of The Apprentice學徒.
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像是電視實境節目《誰是接班人》裡面的人物。
04:23
He looked看著 like a man who wanted to wear穿 an outfit配備
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他看起來像是一個把精心打扮體面
04:25
that would convince說服 me that he was very sane明智的.
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想要說服我他很清醒的人。
04:30
And he satSAT down.
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他坐了下來。
04:31
And I said, "So is it true真正 that you faked偽造 your way in here?"
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我說:「所以你裝瘋混進來這裡是真的嗎?」
04:34
And he said, "Yep是的. Yep是的. Absolutely絕對. I beat擊敗 someone有人 up when I was 17.
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他說:「對,對,當然。我 17 歲時打了某人一頓。
04:38
And I was in prison監獄 awaiting等待 trial審訊,
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當時我在監獄裡等審判,
04:40
and my cellmate獄友 said to me,
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我的牢友跟我說:
04:42
'You know what you have to do?
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「你知道你該怎麼做嗎?
04:43
Fake madness瘋狂.
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假裝你瘋了。
04:45
Tell them you're mad. You'll你會 get sent發送 to some cushy輕鬆的 hospital醫院.
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告訴他們你發瘋了。你就會被送到很可以過得很輕鬆的醫院。
04:48
Nurses護士 will bring帶來 you pizzas比薩餅.
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護士會送披薩給你吃。
04:51
You'll你會 have your own擁有 Playstation遊戲機.'"
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你會有你自己的 PS 遊戲機。」
04:53
So I said, "Well how did you do it?"
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於是我說:「你當時是怎麼做的?」
04:54
He said, "I asked to see the prison監獄 psychiatrist心理醫生.
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他說:「我要求要見監獄的精神醫生。
04:57
And I'd just seen看到 a film電影 called 'Crash'“撞車”
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我當時剛看完一齣叫《超速性追緝》的電影,
04:59
in which哪一個 people get sexual有性 pleasure樂趣 from crashing轟然 cars汽車 into walls牆壁.
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當中人們藉由開車撞牆達到性愛的愉悅。
05:03
So I said to the psychiatrist心理醫生,
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所以我跟那位精神醫生說,
05:05
'I get sexual有性 pleasure樂趣 from crashing轟然 cars汽車 into walls牆壁.'"
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「我從開車撞牆中得到性愛的愉悅。」
05:09
And I said, "What else其他?"
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我說:「還有呢?」
05:11
He said, "Oh, yeah. I told the psychiatrist心理醫生
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他說:「喔,對了,我告訴那位精神醫生
05:13
that I wanted to watch women婦女 as they died死亡
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我想要看女人死亡
05:17
because it would make me feel more normal正常."
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因為那會讓我感到更正常。」
05:19
And I said, "Where'd哪兒 you get that from?"
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我說:「你從哪得到這想法?」
05:21
He said, "Oh, from a biography of Ted攤曬 Bundy邦迪
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他說:「從泰德邦迪 (美國七十年代連續殺人犯) 的傳記,
05:23
that they had at the prison監獄 library圖書館."
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監獄圖書館有這本書。」
05:25
Anyway無論如何 he faked偽造 madness瘋狂 too well, he said.
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反正他說他裝瘋裝得太像了,
05:29
And they didn't send發送 him to some cushy輕鬆的 hospital醫院.
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所以他們沒有將他送到一些可以混得很輕鬆的醫院。
05:31
They sent發送 him to Broadmoor布羅德莫.
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他們將他送到布羅德莫。
05:33
And the minute分鐘 he got there,
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當他一到達這裡,
05:35
he said he took one look at the place地點, asked to see the psychiatrist心理醫生,
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他說他看了這個地方一眼,要求要見精神醫生,
05:38
said, "There's been a terrible可怕 misunderstanding誤解.
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他要說:「有一個很嚴重的誤會。
05:40
I'm not mentally精神上 ill生病."
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我沒有精神異常。」
05:42
I said, "How long have you been here for?"
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我說:「你在這裡多久了?」
05:44
He said, "Well, if I'd just doneDONE my time in prison監獄 for the original原版的 crime犯罪,
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他說:「嗯,如果我要為我原本犯的罪坐牢的話,
05:49
I'd have got five years年份.
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必須被關五年。
05:50
I've been in Broadmoor布羅德莫 for 12 years年份."
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我已經在布羅德莫12年了。」
05:56
Tony托尼 said that it's a lot harder更難 to convince說服 people you're sane明智的
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Tony 說要說服別人你是神智正常的
06:00
than it is to convince說服 them you're crazy.
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比你瘋了還要困難得多。
06:03
He said, "I thought the best最好 way to seem似乎 normal正常
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他說:「我心想表現正常的最佳方式是
06:04
would be to talk to people normally一般 about normal正常 things
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跟人們正常地聊普通的事情,
06:07
like football足球 or what's on TV電視.
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像是足球或者電視上的節目。
06:09
I subscribe訂閱 to New Scientist科學家,
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我訂閱了《新科學家》雜誌,
06:11
and recently最近 it had an article文章
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最近雜誌上有一則文章
06:13
about how the U.S. Army軍隊 was training訓練 bumblebees大黃蜂 to sniff吸氣 out explosives炸藥.
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關於美國軍隊正在訓練大黃蜂能嗅出爆裂物。
06:18
So I said to a nurse護士,
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於是我告訴一位護士:
06:18
'Did you know that the U.S. army軍隊 is training訓練 bumblebees大黃蜂
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『你知道美國軍隊正在訓練大黃蜂
06:22
to sniff吸氣 out explosives炸藥?'
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能嗅出爆裂物嗎?』
06:23
When I read my medical notes筆記,
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當我讀我自己的診療紀錄時,
06:25
I saw they'd他們會 written書面:
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我看到他們寫了:
06:26
'Believes相信 bees蜜蜂 can sniff吸氣 out explosives炸藥.'"
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『相信蜜蜂可以嗅出爆裂物。』」
06:30
He said, "You know, they're always looking out
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他說:「你知道嗎,他們總是
06:33
for non-verbal非語言 clues線索 to my mental心理 state.
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為我的精神狀態找尋不能用言語表達的線索。
06:35
But how do you sit in a sane明智的 way?
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但你要怎麼神智清楚地坐著?
06:39
How do you cross交叉 your legs in a sane明智的 way?
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但你要怎麼神智清楚地翹腿?
06:41
It's just impossible不可能."
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這根本就不可能。」
06:43
And when Tony托尼 said that to me,
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當 Tony 跟我說時,
06:44
I thought to myself, "Am I sitting坐在 like a journalist記者?
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我心想:「我現在像個記者坐著嗎?
06:48
Am I crossing路口 my legs like a journalist記者?"
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我像個記者翹腳嗎?」
06:51
He said, "You know, I've got the Stockwell斯托克韋爾 Strangler扼殺 on one side of me
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他說:「你知道嗎,我的一邊是斯托克維爾殺人案兇手,
06:57
and I've got the 'Tiptoe'腳尖 Through通過 the Tulips'鬱金香“ rapist強姦犯 on the other side of me.
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另一邊是約會強暴犯。
07:00
So I tend趨向 to stay in my room房間 a lot because I find them quite相當 frightening可怕的.
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所以我傾向於多待在我的房間裡,因為我覺得他們很嚇人。
07:04
And they take that as a sign標誌 of madness瘋狂.
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而他們將那視為瘋狂的一種徵象。
07:06
They say it proves證明 that I'm aloof超然 and grandiose雄偉."
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他們說那證明了我很冷漠又誇張。」
07:09
So only in Broadmoor布羅德莫 would not wanting希望 to hang out with serial串行 killers殺手
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所以只有在布羅德莫,不想跟連續殺人犯相處
07:14
be a sign標誌 of madness瘋狂.
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會被視為瘋狂的徵象。
07:15
Anyway無論如何 he seemed似乎 completely全然 normal正常 to me -- but what did I know?
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反正我覺得他十分正常 -- 但是我怎麼知道?
07:19
And when I got home I emailed電子郵件 his clinician臨床醫生, Anthony安東尼 MadenMaden.
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當我回到家,我傳 email 給他的臨床醫生,Anthony Maden。
07:22
I said, "What's the story故事?"
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我說:「到底有什麼故事?」
07:23
And he said, "Yep是的. We accept接受 that Tony托尼 faked偽造 madness瘋狂 to get out of a prison監獄 sentence句子
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他說:「沒錯,我們接受 Tony 假裝發瘋以逃避牢獄之災,
07:29
because his hallucinations幻覺 that had seemed似乎 quite相當 clich老生常談é to begin開始 with
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因為他那陳腔老調的幻想
07:33
just vanished消失 the minute分鐘 he got to Broadmoor布羅德莫.
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在他抵達布羅德莫的時候就消失了。
07:36
However然而, we have assessed評估 him.
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然而,我們重新評估他。
07:38
And we have determined決心 that what he is is a psychopath精神病患者."
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我們判斷他是個精神病患者。」
07:42
And in fact事實, faking偽造 madness瘋狂
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事實上,假裝發瘋
07:44
is exactly究竟 the kind of cunning狡猾 and manipulative操控 act法案 of a psychopath精神病患者.
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就是那種精神病患會操作的狡猾手段。
07:49
It's on the checklist清單: cunning狡猾 and manipulative操控.
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這有列在檢查表上:狡猾和會操控的。
07:51
So faking偽造 your brain going wrong錯誤
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於是假裝你的腦袋不正常
07:53
is evidence證據 that your brain has gone走了 wrong錯誤.
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變成你的腦袋不正常的證據。
07:56
And I spoke to other experts專家,
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我跟其他專家談過,
07:58
and they said the pinstriped細條紋 suit適合 -- classic經典 psychopath精神病患者.
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他們說細直條紋的西裝 -- 典型精神病患。
08:02
Speaks to items項目 one and two on the checklist清單 --
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講到檢查表上的第一和第二項 --
08:04
glibnessglibness, superficial charm魅力 and grandiose雄偉 sense of self-worth自我價值.
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能言善道,表面的魅力和誇大的自我價值。
08:08
And I said, "Well, what, he didn't want to hang out with the other patients耐心?"
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我說:「什麼,就因為他不想跟其他病患相處?」
08:11
Classic經典 psychopath精神病患者 -- it speaks說話 to grandiosity宏偉 and also lack缺乏 of empathy同情.
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典型的精神病患 -- 代表浮誇且不具有同理心。
08:16
So all the things that had seemed似乎 most normal正常 about Tony托尼
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於是所有有關 Tony 看似正常的事,
08:20
was evidence證據, according根據 to his clinician臨床醫生,
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根據他的臨床醫生,
08:22
that he was mad in this new way.
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都是他新的瘋狂形式的證據。
08:24
He was a psychopath精神病患者.
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他是一個精神病患。
08:26
And his clinician臨床醫生 said to me,
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而且他的臨床醫生跟我說,
08:28
"If you want to know more about psychopaths精神病患者,
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「如果你想要知道更多有關精神病患的事,
08:30
you can go on a psychopath精神病患者 spotting斑點 course課程
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你可以參加發現精神病患的課程,
08:33
run by Robert羅伯特 Hare野兔 who invented發明 the psychopath精神病患者 checklist清單."
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由發明精神病患檢查表的 Robert Hare 授課。」
08:36
So I did.
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於是我照做。
08:37
I went on a psychopath精神病患者 spotting斑點 course課程,
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我參加了一個發現精神病患的課程,
08:39
and I am now a certified認證 --
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所以我是個有證照的 --
08:43
and I have to say, extremely非常 adept拿手 --
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還有我必須說,非常內行的 --
08:46
psychopath精神病患者 spotter去污劑.
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發現精神病患的人。
08:48
So here's這裡的 the statistics統計:
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統計數據是
08:51
One in a hundred regular定期 people is a psychopath精神病患者.
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一百個正常人之中,有一個是精神病患。
08:56
So there's 1,500 people in his room房間.
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這裡有 1500 個人。
08:59
Fifteen十五 of you are psychopaths精神病患者.
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所以你們當中有 15 個人是精神病患。
09:05
Although雖然 that figure數字 rises上升 to four percent百分
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當對象是執行長和企業領導人時,
09:07
of CEO's首席執行官 and business商業 leaders領導者.
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這數值提高到百分之四。
09:10
So I think there's a very good chance機會
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於是我認為很有可能的是
09:13
there's about 30 or 40 psychopaths精神病患者 in this room房間.
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這房間裡有大概 30 個或 40 個精神病患。
09:18
It could be carnage大屠殺 by the end結束 of the night.
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今晚到最後可能是一場大屠殺。
09:21
(Laughter笑聲) (Laughs)
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(笑聲)
09:24
Hare野兔 said the reason原因 why is because capitalism資本主義 at its most ruthless無情
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Hare 說原因是最殘酷的資本主義
09:30
rewards獎勵 psychopathic心理變態 behavior行為 --
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帶來了精神病患的行為 --
09:33
the lack缺乏 of empathy同情, the glibnessglibness,
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缺乏同理心,油嘴滑舌,
09:38
cunning狡猾, manipulative操控.
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奸詐,愛操弄的。
09:40
In fact事實, capitalism資本主義, perhaps也許 at its most remorseless無情,
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事實上,毫無悔意的資本主義
09:43
is a physical物理 manifestation表現 of psychopathy精神病.
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是一種精神病態的心理操作。
09:47
It's like a form形成 of psychopathy精神病
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像是一種會影響我們全部人的
09:49
that's come down to affect影響 us all.
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精神病態模式。
09:53
And Hare野兔 said to me, "You know what? Forget忘記 about some guy at Broadmoor布羅德莫
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Hare 跟我說:「你知道嗎?忘掉在布羅德莫
09:56
who may可能 or may可能 not have faked偽造 madness瘋狂.
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某個可能有或沒有假裝發瘋的人。
09:57
Who cares管它? That's not a big story故事.
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誰在乎啊?那不是大新聞。
09:59
The big story故事," he said, "is corporate企業 psychopathy精神病.
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大新聞,」他接著說:「是企業的精神病態。
10:02
You want to go and interview訪問 yourself你自己 some corporate企業 psychopaths精神病患者."
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你會想要去採訪一些企業裡的精神病患。」
10:06
So I gave it a try. I wrote to the Enron安然 people.
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於是我嘗試了。我寫信給安隆案相關人士。
10:09
I said, "Could I come and interview訪問 you in prison監獄
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我說:「我是否可以到監獄採訪你,
10:11
to find out it you're psychopaths精神病患者?"
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以確認你是不是精神病患?」
10:13
And they didn't reply回复.
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他們沒有回信。
10:17
So I changed tack.
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所以我改變策略。
10:20
I emailed電子郵件 "Chainsaw電鋸 Al" Dunlap鄧拉普,
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我寄 email 給日光企業(Sunbeam)前總裁「鏈鋸」艾爾‧鄧樂普("Chainsaw" Al Dunlap),
10:23
the asset財富 stripper脫衣舞 from the 1990s.
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1990 年代的資產剝奪者。
10:26
He would come into failing失敗 businesses企業 and close down 30 percent百分 of the workforce勞動力,
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他會接手式微的企業且刪減百分之三十的人力,
10:31
just turn American美國 towns城市 into ghost towns城市.
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將美國的城鎮變成無人居住的鬼城。
10:34
And I emailed電子郵件 him and I said,
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於是我寄 email 給他,我說:
10:36
"I believe you may可能 have a very special特別 brain anomaly不規則
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「我相信你應該有個非常特別的異常頭腦,
10:38
that makes品牌 you special特別
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所以你很特別,
10:40
and interested有興趣 in the predatory掠奪性 spirit精神 and fearless不怕.
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而且你對掠奪的精神很有興趣,沒有懼怕。
10:45
Can I come and interview訪問 you
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我可否來採訪你
10:46
about your special特別 brain anomaly不規則?"
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有關你特別的異常頭腦?」
10:48
And he said, "Come on over."
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他回覆:「來吧。」
10:52
So I went to Al Dunlap's鄧拉普的 grand盛大 Florida佛羅里達 mansion大廈
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所以我去 Al Dunlap 位在的佛羅里達的大宅,
10:55
that was filled填充 with sculptures雕塑 of predatory掠奪性 animals動物.
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裡頭充滿掠奪性動物的雕像。
10:59
There were lions獅子 and tigers老虎.
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有獅子和老虎。
11:02
He was taking服用 me through通過 the garden花園.
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他帶我走過花園。
11:03
There were falcons獵鷹 and eagles.
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有隼和鷹。
11:06
He was saying to me, "Over there you've got sharks鯊魚."
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他跟我說:「在那裡你可以看到鯊魚。」
11:08
He was saying this in a less effeminate柔弱的 way.
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他用比較不柔弱的語氣說話。
11:11
"You've got more sharks鯊魚 and you've got tigers老虎."
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「你可看到更多的鯊魚,還有老虎。」
11:16
It was like Narnia納尼亞.
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那簡直就像納尼亞。
11:18
(Laughter笑聲)
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(笑聲)
11:22
And then we went into his kitchen廚房.
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接著我們走進他的廚房。
11:24
Now Al Dunlap鄧拉普 would be brought in to save保存 failing失敗 companies公司.
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Al Dunlap 總是被帶來拯救快倒閉的公司。
11:28
He'd他會 close down 30 percent百分 of the workforce勞動力.
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他會刪減百分之三十的人力。
11:31
And he'd他會 quite相當 often經常 fire people with a joke玩笑.
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而且他開除人時通常會開點玩笑。
11:34
For instance, one famous著名 story故事 about him,
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舉例來說,他有個有名的故事,
11:37
somebody came來了 up to him and said, "I've just bought myself a new car汽車."
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有個人來到他面前說:「我剛買給我自己一台新車。」
11:40
And he said, "You may可能 have a new car汽車,
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他接著說:「你可能有一台新車,
11:42
but I'll tell you what you don't have, a job工作."
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但我會告訴你你沒有的,就是工作。」
11:47
So in his kitchen廚房 -- he was standing常設 there with his wife妻子, Judy朱迪,
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於是我們在他的廚房中 --他和他的太太 Judy 站在一起,
11:50
and his bodyguard保鏢 Sean肖恩 -- and I said, "You know how I said in my email電子郵件
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還有他的保鑣 Sean -- 於是我說:「就如同我在 email 中所說,
11:53
that you might威力 have a special特別 brain anomaly不規則 that makes品牌 you special特別?"
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你可能有個特別的異常頭腦,使你變得特別?」
11:57
He said, "Yeah, it's an amazing驚人 theory理論.
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他說:「是的,這是個驚人的理論。
11:58
It's like Star Trek跋涉. You're going where no man has gone走了 before."
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就像星際爭霸戰。你要去人類從來沒有到過的地方。」
12:02
And I said, "Well, some psychologists心理學家 might威力 say
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接著我說:「嗯,一些心理學家可能會說
12:09
that this makes品牌 you ... " (Mumbles曼波斯)
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這使你 ...」(含糊的話)
12:12
(Laughter笑聲)
250
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(笑聲)
12:14
And he said, "What?"
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他說:「什麼?」
12:16
And I said, "A psychopath精神病患者."
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我接著說:「變成精神病患。」
12:18
And I said, "I've got a list名單 of psychopathic心理變態 traits性狀 in my pocket口袋.
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我說:「我口袋裡有一張精神病患的特徵表。
12:22
Can I go through通過 them with you?"
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我可以問你有沒有這些特稱嗎?」
12:24
And he looked看著 intrigued好奇 despite儘管 himself他自己,
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他看起來很好奇,儘管他本意不是如此,
12:27
and he said, "Okay, go on."
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他說:「好吧,開始吧。」
12:28
And I said, "Okay. Grandiose雄偉 sense of self-worth自我價值."
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我說:「沒問題。過度膨脹的自我價值。」
12:32
Which哪一個, I have to say, would have been hard for him to deny拒絕
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我必需說,對他來說這是很難否定的,
12:34
because he was standing常設 underneath a giant巨人 oil painting繪畫 of himself他自己.
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因為他站在一幅以他為主角的巨大的油畫下面。
12:37
(Laughter笑聲)
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(笑聲)
12:42
He said, "Well, you've got to believe in you!"
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他說:「嗯,你一定要相信你自己!」
12:45
And I said, "Manipulative手法."
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我接著說:「習於操弄。」
12:48
He said, "That's leadership領導."
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他說:「那叫做領導。」
12:51
And I said, "Shallow affect影響:
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我接著說:「沒有感情:
12:53
an inability無力 to experience經驗 a range範圍 of emotions情緒."
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不能體會各種情緒。」
12:55
He said, "Who wants to be weighed稱重 down by some nonsense廢話 emotions情緒?"
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他說:「誰想到承受一些愚蠢的情緒?」
12:59
So he was going down the psychopathic心理變態 checklist清單,
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於是他回答了精神病檢查表上接下來的特點,
13:01
basically基本上 turning車削 it into "Who Moved移動 My Cheese起司?"
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基本上就像是《誰搬走了我的乳酪?》那樣。
13:05
(Laughter笑聲)
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(笑聲)
13:09
But I did notice注意 something happening事件 to me the day I was with Al Dunlap鄧拉普.
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但我注意到我和 Al Dunlap 在一起的那天,我有了變化。
13:11
Whenever每當 he said anything to me that was kind of normal正常 --
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當他跟我說任何滿正常的事 --
13:14
like he said no to juvenile少年 delinquency犯罪.
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像是他否認少年犯罪。
13:17
He said he got accepted公認 into West西 Point,
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他說到他收到西點軍校的入學許可,
13:18
and they don't let delinquents罪犯 in West西 Point.
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西點軍校不會收青少年罪犯。
13:22
He said no to many許多 short-term短期 marital婚姻 relationships關係.
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他否認有很多段短期的婚姻關係。
13:25
He's only ever been married已婚 twice兩次.
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他只有結婚兩次。
13:26
Admittedly固然, his first wife妻子 cited引用 in her divorce離婚 papers文件
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眾所皆知的是,他的第一任妻子在她的離婚書上寫到
13:29
that he once一旦 threatened受威脅 her with a knife
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他有一次拿刀威脅她,
13:31
and said he always wondered想知道 what human人的 flesh tasted like,
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說他一直想知道人肉吃起來是什麼味道,
13:34
but people say stupid things to each other in bad marriages婚姻 in the heat of an argument論據
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但在糟糕的婚姻關係中,人們激烈地爭吵時會互相說些愚蠢的話,
13:38
and his second第二 marriage婚姻 has lasted歷時 41 years年份.
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而且他的第二段婚姻維持 41 年。
13:41
So whenever每當 he said anything to me that just seemed似乎 kind of non-psychopathic非精神病,
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每當他跟我說些聽起來似乎相當不像有精神病的話,
13:45
I thought to myself, well I'm not going to put that in my book.
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我心想,我才不要把這寫到我的書中。
13:48
And then I realized實現 that becoming變得 a psychopath精神病患者 spotter去污劑
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接著我發現成為一個發現精神病患的人
13:52
had turned轉身 me a little bit psychopathic心理變態.
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已經把我變得有點像有精神病。
13:56
Because I was desperate殊死 to shove him in a box marked psychopath精神病患者.
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因為我如此急切地想把他推進一個寫上精神病患的箱子裡。
14:01
I was desperate殊死 to define確定 him by his maddest最瘋狂 edges邊緣.
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我迫不急待用他瘋狂的特徵來定義他。
14:05
And I realized實現, oh my God. This is what I've been doing for 20 years年份.
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於是我了解了,我的天啊。這是我 20 年來一直在做的事。
14:09
It's what all journalists記者 do.
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是記者在做的事。
14:10
We travel旅行 across橫過 the world世界 with our notepads記事本 in our hands,
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我們手拿筆記本在世界各國遊走,
14:14
and we wait for the gems寶石.
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我們等待難能可貴的事物。
14:16
And the gems寶石 are always the outermost aspects方面
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這些事物總是我們受訪者的人格特質中
14:20
of our interviewee's受訪者的 personality個性.
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最外表的樣子。
14:22
And we stitch them together一起 like medieval中世紀 monks和尚.
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我們像中世紀僧侶一樣把它們縫補在一塊兒。
14:26
And we leave離開 the normal正常 stuff東東 on the floor地板.
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我們捨棄平凡的東西。
14:30
And this is a country國家 that over-diagnoses過度診斷 certain某些 mental心理 disorders障礙 hugely巨大.
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這是一個大量地過度診斷特定精神疾病的國家。
14:37
Childhood童年 bipolar雙極 -- children孩子 as young年輕 as four
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兒童雙極性障礙 -- 年紀僅四歲的兒童
14:40
are being存在 labeled標記 bipolar雙極
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被貼上有躁鬱症的標籤,
14:42
because they have temper脾氣 tantrums發脾氣,
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因為他們會發脾氣,
14:44
which哪一個 scores分數 them high on their bipolar雙極 checklist清單.
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這讓他們在雙極性檢查表上得到高分。
14:48
When I got back to London倫敦, Tony托尼 phoned打電話給 me.
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當我回到倫敦時,Tony 打電話給我。
14:53
He said, "Why haven't沒有 you been returning回國 my calls電話?"
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他說:「你為什麼不回我的電話?」
14:56
I said, "Well they say that you're a psychopath精神病患者."
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我說:「他們說你是精神病患。」
14:59
And he said, "I'm not a psychopath精神病患者."
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他說:「我沒有精神病。」
15:01
He said, "You know what, one of the items項目 on the checklist清單 is lack缺乏 of remorse悔恨,
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他說:「你知道嗎,檢查表上有一項是缺乏悔意,
15:04
but another另一個 item項目 on the checklist清單 is cunning狡猾, manipulative操控.
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但表上另外一項是奸詐,愛操作的。
15:08
So when you say you feel remorse悔恨 for your crime犯罪,
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於是當你說你對你犯下的罪感到後悔,
15:10
they say, 'Typical'典型 of the psychopath精神病患者
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他們說:『典型的精神病患,
15:12
to cunningly狡猾 say he feels感覺 remorse悔恨 when he doesn't.'
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很奸詐地說他感到後悔,其實他心裡不這麼想。』
15:15
It's like witchcraft巫術. They turn everything upside-down上下翻轉."
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這就像巫術,他們顛倒一切。」
15:19
He said, "I've got a tribunal法庭 coming未來 up.
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他說:「我即將要上法庭,
15:21
Will you come to it?"
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你要來嗎?」
15:24
So I said okay.
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我答應了。
15:26
So I went to his tribunal法庭.
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於是我參加了他的法庭。
15:28
And after 14 years年份 in Broadmoor布羅德莫, they let him go.
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在被監禁在布羅德莫 14 年之後,他們釋放他了。
15:33
They decided決定 that he shouldn't不能 be held保持 indefinitely無限期
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他們決定不應該因為他在檢查表中得到高分
15:36
because he scores分數 high on a checklist清單
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這高分代表他可能有高於平均值的再犯機率。
15:39
that might威力 mean that he would have a greater更大 than average平均 chance機會 of recidivism累犯.
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就無限期地關他。
15:45
So they let him go.
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於是他們讓他走了。
15:47
And outside in the corridor走廊 he said to me,
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在外面的走道上,他跟我說:
15:48
"You know what, Jon喬恩?
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「你知道嗎,Jon?
15:50
Everyone's每個人的 a bit psychopathic心理變態."
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每個人都有點精神病。」
15:52
He said, "You are. I am. Well obviously明顯 I am."
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他說:「你有,我有,很明顯地我有。」
15:56
I said, "What are you going to do now?"
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我說:「你接下來要做什麼?」
15:59
He said, "I'm going to go to Belgium比利時
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他說:「我要去比利時
16:02
because there's a woman女人 there that I fancy幻想.
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因為那裏有個我喜歡的女人。
16:03
But she's married已婚, so I'm going to have to get her split分裂 up from her husband丈夫."
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但她結婚了,所以我要讓她跟她老公離婚。」
16:07
(Laughter笑聲)
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(笑聲)
16:11
Anyway無論如何, that was two years年份 ago,
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不論如何,那是兩年前的事了,
16:14
and that's where my book ended結束.
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也是我的書的結尾。
16:16
And for the last 20 months個月 everything was fine.
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過去 20 個月來,一切安好。
16:21
Nothing bad happened發生.
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沒什麼壞事發生。
16:23
He was living活的 with a girl女孩 outside London倫敦.
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他跟一個女孩住在倫敦之外。
16:25
He was, according根據 to Brian布賴恩 the Scientologist科學論,
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根據山達基教徒 Brian,
16:27
making製造 up for lost丟失 time -- which哪一個 I know sounds聲音 ominous不祥的,
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他在彌補遺失的時間 -- 我知道這聽起來不是好預兆,
16:30
but isn't necessarily一定 ominous不祥的.
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但這不是必要的壞兆頭。
16:32
Unfortunately不幸, after 20 months個月,
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不幸地,20 個月之後,
16:34
he did go back to jail監獄 for a month.
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他的確回去坐牢一個月。
16:37
He got into a fracas爭吵 in a bar酒吧, he called it --
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他捲入在一家酒吧裡的紛爭,這是他說的 --
16:41
ended結束 up going to jail監獄 for a month,
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結果是坐牢一個月,
16:43
which哪一個 I know is bad,
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我知道這不好,
16:44
but at least最小 a month implies暗示 that whatever隨你 the fracas爭吵 was,
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但至少一個月代表的是不管這紛爭是什麼,
16:47
it wasn't too bad.
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這並沒有太糟。
16:50
And then he phoned打電話給 me.
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之後他打電話給我。
16:53
And you know what, I think it's right that Tony托尼 is out.
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你知道嗎,我覺得 Tony 出獄是對的。
16:58
Because you shouldn't不能 define確定 people by their maddest最瘋狂 edges邊緣.
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因為你不應該用人們瘋狂的特徵來評斷它們。
17:02
And what Tony托尼 is, is he's a semi-psychopath半變態.
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至於 Tony 到底是怎樣,他是半個神經病嗎。
17:05
He's a gray灰色 area in a world世界 that doesn't like gray灰色 areas.
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他處在一個這個世界不喜歡的灰色地帶。
17:11
But the gray灰色 areas are where you find the complexity複雜,
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但是灰色地帶是你發現複雜的地方,
17:15
it's where you find the humanity人性
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是你發現人性
17:19
and it's where you find the truth真相.
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還有發現真相的地方。
17:22
And Tony托尼 said to me,
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於是 Tony 跟我說,
17:24
"Jon喬恩, could I buy購買 you a drink in a bar酒吧?
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「Jon,我可以請你到酒吧喝杯酒嗎?
17:28
I just want to thank you for everything you've doneDONE for me."
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我只是想謝謝你幫我做的所有事。」
17:31
And I didn't go. What would you have doneDONE?
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我沒有去。你還能怎麼做呢?
17:36
Thank you.
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謝謝。
17:37
(Applause掌聲)
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(掌聲)
Translated by I-Hsiang Lin
Reviewed by Zuoxiao ZHANG

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ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Jon Ronson - Writer, filmmaker
Jon Ronson is a writer and documentary filmmaker who dips into every flavor of madness, extremism and obsession.

Why you should listen

For his latest book, So You've Been Publicly Shamed, Jon Ronson spent three years traveling the world and talking to people who'd been subjected to high-profile public shamings. Whatever their transgression, the response was to be faced by an angry mob, as Ronson calls them "collective outrage circles" devoted to tearing down said person from any position of power. It does not, Ronson suggests gently, reflect so well on society as a whole.

In a previous book, The Psychopath Test, Ronson explored the unnerving world of psychopaths -- a group that includes both incarcerated killers and, one of his subjects insists, plenty of CEOs. In his books, films and articles, Ronson explores madness and obsession of all kinds, from the US military's experiments in psychic warfare to the obscene and hate-filled yet Christian rap of the Insane Clown Posse. He wrote a column for the Guardian, hosted an essay program on Radio 4 in the United Kingdom, and contributes to This American Life.

More profile about the speaker
Jon Ronson | Speaker | TED.com