TEDGlobal 2013
George Papandreou: Imagine a European democracy without borders
喬治·巴本德里歐 (George Papandreou): 想像歐洲民主無國界
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希臘成了歐洲經濟危機的代表，但是希臘前總理喬治·巴本德里歐 (George Papandreou) 認為未來仍暗潮洶湧。當「像我一樣的政治人物失去了人民的信任，我們的民主，」他說，「就是被囚禁在一個太大而不容出錯的系統之中，更準確地說，是太大而無法控制。」這該如何解決呢？讓人民更直接地參與新民主的談判。
George Papandreou - Former Prime Minister of Greece
George Papandreou draws on lessons learned from the Greek debt crisis as he helps guide the EU through difficult waters. Full bio
George Papandreou draws on lessons learned from the Greek debt crisis as he helps guide the EU through difficult waters. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:13
This will not be a speech
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這場演講
00:14
like any one I have ever given.
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和我以前的演講完全不同
00:17
I will talk to you today about
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今天我要告訴你們
00:21
the failure of leadership in global politics
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全球政治以及全球化經濟領導的失敗
00:26
and in our globalizing economy.
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00:29
And I won't provide some feel-good, ready-made solutions.
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我不會提出那些感覺還不錯、
現成的解決辦法
現成的解決辦法
00:36
But I will in the end urge you
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但在演講最後，我會激勵你們去重新思考
事實上，是冒險
事實上，是冒險
00:38
to rethink, actually take risks, and get involved
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並參與我視為全球民主的進化過程
00:44
in what I see as a global evolution
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00:47
of democracy.
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00:50
Failure of leadership.
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失敗的領導
00:52
What is the failure of leadership today?
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何謂現今的失敗領導？
00:55
And why is our democracy not working?
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為何民主失效了？
00:58
Well, I believe that the failure of leadership is the fact
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嗯，我相信失敗的領導表示
我們把自己抽離了整個過程
我們把自己抽離了整個過程
01:01
that we have taken you out of the process.
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01:05
So let me, from my personal experiences,
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請容我根據我的經驗給你們一些觀點
01:08
give you an insight, so that you can step back
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讓你們退一步，或許也能讓你們了解
01:12
and maybe understand why it is so difficult to cope
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何以處理現今的挑戰是如此艱難
01:16
with the challenges of today and why politics
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以及為何政治會步入一個死胡同
01:18
is going down a blind alley.
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01:22
Let's start from the beginning.
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我們從頭開始說吧
01:24
Let's start from democracy.
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就從民主開始
01:28
Well, if you go back to the Ancient Greeks,
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嗯，如果你回到古希臘
01:30
it was a revelation, a discovery,
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它是種啟示、是種探索
01:33
that we had the potential, together,
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告訴我們有成為
我們自己命運主宰的潛力
我們自己命運主宰的潛力
01:38
to be masters of our own fate,
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01:41
to be able to examine, to learn, to imagine,
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得以檢視、學習、想像
01:44
and then to design a better life.
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進而塑造出一個更美好的生活
01:48
And democracy was the political innovation
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民主就是政治上的創新
01:53
which protected this freedom,
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它保護了這樣的自由
01:55
because we were liberated from fear
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由於我們從畏懼中解放
02:01
so that our minds in fact,
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不論我們的內心住著暴君或是教條
02:02
whether they be despots or dogmas,
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02:05
could be the protagonists.
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都可以成為主宰
02:09
Democracy was the political innovation that allowed us
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民主是種政治創新，它限制了我們
意圖擁有極大財富與權力的天性
意圖擁有極大財富與權力的天性
02:12
to limit the power, whether it was of tyrants
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02:16
or of high priests,
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不論這種權力是來自於暴君或是大祭司
02:18
their natural tendency to maximize power and wealth.
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02:23
Well, I first began to understand this
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嗯，14 歲的時候，我開始了解這件事
02:25
when I was 14 years old.
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02:27
I used to, to try to avoid homework,
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我試著逃避回家作業
02:29
sneak down to the living room and listen to my parents
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躡手躡腳地走到客廳聽著我父母
02:34
and their friends debate heatedly.
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和他們朋友們的激烈辯論
02:36
You see, then Greece was
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瞧，希臘當時受到強權控制
02:38
under control of a very powerful establishment
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02:43
which was strangling the country,
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它綁住了整個國家
02:44
and my father was heading a promising movement
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我的父親曾帶領了一個有願景的運動
02:47
to reimagine Greece, to imagine a Greece
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嘗試重現希臘
02:50
where freedom reigned and where, maybe,
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在那裡，自由當道
02:52
the people, the citizens, could actually rule their own country.
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而且人民得以掌握他們的國家
02:56
I used to join him in many of the campaigns,
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我曾經參加過他的好幾個活動
02:58
and you can see me here next to him.
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你可以看到我站在他旁邊
03:00
I'm the younger one there, to the side.
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我是那個比較年輕的，靠這邊
03:03
You may not recognize me because
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你們可能認不太出來
03:06
I used to part my hair differently there.
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因為我那時候的頭髮有分邊
03:08
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
03:10
So in 1967, elections were coming,
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1967 年，選舉將近
03:14
things were going well in the campaign,
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活動進行得很順利
03:16
the house was electric.
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整屋子的人興奮不已
03:18
We really could sense that there was going to be
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我們都能嗅到
希臘即將邁進很大的一步
希臘即將邁進很大的一步
03:20
a major progressive change in Greece.
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03:24
Then one night, military trucks drive up to our house.
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然後有一天晚上
軍用卡車直接停在我家前面
軍用卡車直接停在我家前面
03:29
Soldiers storm the door.
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士兵衝進門
03:32
They find me up on the top terrace.
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他們在陽台上找到了我
03:36
A sergeant comes up to me with a machine gun,
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一位拿著機關槍的士官走向我
03:38
puts it to my head, and says,
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槍口指著我的頭，說：
03:40
"Tell me where your father is or I will kill you."
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「告訴我你爸在哪，不然你就沒命了。」
03:44
My father, hiding nearby, reveals himself,
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躲在附近的父親自己走出來了
03:48
and was summarily taken to prison.
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他馬上就被關進了大牢
03:52
Well, we survived, but democracy did not.
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嗯，我們活下來了，但是民主並沒有
03:56
Seven brutal years of dictatorship
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我們在獨裁統治下被放逐了殘酷的七年
03:59
which we spent in exile.
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04:02
Now, today, our democracies are again
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今天，我們的民主正再次面對真相
04:05
facing a moment of truth.
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04:07
Let me tell you a story.
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讓我告訴你們一個故事
04:09
Sunday evening,
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星期天晚上
04:11
Brussels, April 2010.
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2010 年四月，在布魯塞爾 (Brussels)
04:14
I'm sitting with my counterparts in the European Union.
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我當時和大家在歐盟
04:18
I had just been elected prime minister,
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我才剛剛被選為總理
04:21
but I had the unhappy privilege of revealing a truth
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但是我卻因為我擁有的特權
得知一件讓我不悅的事實
得知一件讓我不悅的事實
04:25
that our deficit was not 6 percent,
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那就是我們的赤字不是如同
前幾天舊政府的官方報告所指出的 6%
前幾天舊政府的官方報告所指出的 6%
04:28
as had been officially reported only a few days earlier
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04:32
before the elections by the previous government,
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04:35
but actually 15.6 percent.
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而是 15.6%
04:40
But the deficit was only the symptom
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但是赤字只是顯現出來的症狀而已
04:42
of much deeper problems that Greece was facing,
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隱含在裡頭的是，希臘所面對的更深層病灶
04:44
and I had been elected on a mandate, a mission, actually,
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而我被選出來執行這項命令、這項任務
04:48
to tackle these problems,
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來解決這些問題
04:50
whether it was lack of transparency
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不論我們在管理上是否缺乏透明度
04:52
and accountability in governance,
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以及承擔責任的可信度
04:55
or whether it was a clientelistic state
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又或者這是個提供強權
利益的侍從體系國家──
利益的侍從體系國家──
04:57
offering favors to the powerful -- tax avoidance
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幫助他們利用全球的逃稅系統來避稅、
05:02
abetted and aided by a global tax evasion system,
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05:07
politics and media captured by special interests.
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政治及媒體被特殊利益所操弄
05:10
But despite our electoral mandate,
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儘管選舉授權給我們
05:13
the markets mistrusted us.
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然而市場並不信任我們
05:16
Our borrowing costs were skyrocketing,
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我們的借款成本飆漲
05:19
and we were facing possible default.
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而我們可能無法履行責任
05:22
So I went to Brussels on a mission
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所以我到了布魯塞爾來完成一個任務
05:25
to make the case for a united European response,
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也就是讓歐盟對這件事做出回應
05:29
one that would calm the markets and give us the time
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使市場冷靜下來
05:32
to make the necessary reforms.
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讓我們有時間做出必要的重建工作
05:35
But time we didn't get.
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但我們並沒有得到時間
05:38
Picture yourselves around the table in Brussels.
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設想你們圍在布魯塞爾的桌邊
05:41
Negotiations are difficult, the tensions are high,
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談判很困難，壓力很大
05:44
progress is slow, and then, 10 minutes to 2,
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進度緩慢，後來，1 點 50 分的時候
05:47
a prime minister shouts out,
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一位總理吼道：
05:49
"We have to finish in 10 minutes."
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「我們得在 10 分鐘之內結束！」
05:51
I said, "Why? These are important decisions.
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我說：「為什麼？這是重要的決定。
05:54
Let's deliberate a little bit longer."
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我們再斟酌久一些吧。」
05:56
Another prime minister comes in and says,
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另一位總理走進來並說：
05:59
"No, we have to have an agreement now,
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「不，我們現在就要做出協議，
06:03
because in 10 minutes,
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因為 10 分鐘之後，
06:05
the markets are opening up in Japan,
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日本就要開市了，
06:08
and there will be havoc in the global economy."
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會讓全球經濟陷入混亂。」
06:13
We quickly came to a decision in those 10 minutes.
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我們快速地在 10 分鐘之內做出決定
06:16
This time it was not the military,
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這次拿槍指著我們頭的
不是軍隊，而是市場
不是軍隊，而是市場
06:19
but the markets, that put a gun to our collective heads.
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06:25
What followed were the most difficult decisions in my life,
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接下來的是我這輩子所做過最困難的決定
06:29
painful to me, painful to my countrymen,
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我很痛苦，我的人民也很痛苦
06:33
imposing cuts, austerity,
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在不該對這個危機負責的人身上
06:37
often on those not to blame for the crisis.
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刻下了深刻而嚴峻的傷口
06:40
With these sacrifices, Greece did avoid bankruptcy
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做了這些犧牲後，希臘免除了破產的命運
06:43
and the eurozone avoided a collapse.
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而歐元區也免於崩盤
06:46
Greece, yes, triggered the Euro crisis,
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希臘，毫無疑問，引起了歐洲危機
06:49
and some people blame me for pulling the trigger.
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有些人也把我視為這個危機的推手
06:52
But I think today that most would agree
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但我認為今天大多數的人會同意
06:55
that Greece was only a symptom
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希臘只是歐元區更深層結構問題
06:57
of much deeper structural problems in the eurozone,
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之中的一個症狀
07:01
vulnerabilities in the wider global economic system,
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一個在更廣大的全球經濟系統底下的受害者
07:05
vulnerabilities of our democracies.
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一個我們的民主底下的受害者
07:08
Our democracies are trapped by systems too big to fail,
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我們的民主陷在一個太大
而不能出錯的系統之中
而不能出錯的系統之中
07:12
or, more accurately, too big to control.
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更準確地說，是太大而難以控制
07:15
Our democracies are weakened in the global economy
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在有著玩家懂得逃避法律、逃稅、
07:18
with players that can evade laws, evade taxes,
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逃避環境或勞動基準法規的全球經濟之中
07:21
evade environmental or labor standards.
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我們的民主被削弱了
07:25
Our democracies are undermined
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在這日漸成長的不公平之中
07:27
by the growing inequality
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我們的民主遭到了破壞
07:30
and the growing concentration of power and wealth,
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權力以及財富的持續集中
07:33
lobbies, corruption, the speed of the markets
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遊說、貪汙、市場的速度
07:37
or simply the fact that we sometimes fear an impending disaster,
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或只是我們有時會畏懼迫切危機的事實
07:42
have constrained our democracies,
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壓抑了我們的民主
07:45
and they have constrained our capacity
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壓制了我們想像
07:47
to imagine and actually use the potential, your potential,
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事實上，也壓制了你們尋找解答的潛力
07:51
in finding solutions.
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07:54
Greece, you see, was only a preview
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希臘，如你所見，對我們來說
07:56
of what is in store for us all.
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只是現況的預兆而已
07:59
I, overly optimistically, had hoped
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我當時過度樂觀地希望
08:01
that this crisis was an opportunity for Greece, for Europe,
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這個危機是希臘、歐洲、全世界
08:04
for the world, to make radical democratic transformations
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進行民主制度快速轉型的契機
08:09
in our institutions.
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08:11
Instead, I had a very humbling experience.
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相反地，我有一個不太榮耀的經驗
08:15
In Brussels, when we tried desperately again and again
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在布魯塞爾，當我們一再一再拼命
08:19
to find common solutions,
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想要找出辦法的時候
08:21
I realized that not one, not one of us,
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我了解到沒有任何人，我們沒有任何人
08:25
had ever dealt with a similar crisis.
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曾經處理過類似的危機
08:28
But worse, we were trapped by our collective ignorance.
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更糟的是，我們被束縛在我們的無知當中
08:32
We were led by our fears.
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我們被恐懼牽著鼻子走
08:36
And our fears led to a blind faith
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恐懼帶著我們走向對於
08:40
in the orthodoxy of austerity.
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撙節的盲目信仰
08:43
Instead of reaching out to the common
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我們不但沒有在社會中集思廣益
08:47
or the collective wisdom in our societies,
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並在當中找尋更有創意的答案
08:50
investing in it to find more creative solutions,
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08:54
we reverted to political posturing.
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我們反而回到了政治的裝腔作勢
然而，讓我們訝異的是
08:56
And then we were surprised when every
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08:58
ad hoc new measure didn't bring an end to the crisis,
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每一個我們首次嘗試的特別方法
都無法終結這個危機
都無法終結這個危機
09:01
and of course that made it very easy
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理所當然這就會讓我們很容易想要
09:04
to look for a whipping boy
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09:06
for our collective European failure,
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替整個歐洲的失敗找代罪羔羊
09:08
and of course that was Greece.
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當然，那頭代罪羔羊就是希臘
09:11
Those profligate, idle, ouzo-swilling, Zorba-dancing Greeks,
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恣意揮霍、無所事事、狂飲茴香酒
跳左巴舞 (Zorba) 的希臘人
跳左巴舞 (Zorba) 的希臘人
09:16
they are the problem. Punish them!
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他們就是問題所在
懲罰他們吧！
懲罰他們吧！
09:19
Well, a convenient but unfounded stereotype
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嗯，真是一個方便但是毫無根據的刻版印象
09:23
that sometimes hurt even more than austerity itself.
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它有時候甚至比樽節還要更傷人
09:27
But let me warn you, this is not just about Greece.
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但是我要警告你們，這不單單只是希臘的事
09:31
This could be the pattern
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這有可能會是我們處理這些複雜
跨國界問題的時候
跨國界問題的時候
09:34
that leaders follow again and again
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2506
09:36
when we deal with these complex, cross-border problems,
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領導人們可能會重蹈的覆轍
09:40
whether it's climate change, whether it's migration,
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不論是關於氣候變遷、移民、財政系統
09:43
whether it's the financial system.
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09:47
That is, abandoning our collective power
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也就是拋棄了
能夠想像我們的潛能的集體力量
能夠想像我們的潛能的集體力量
09:49
to imagine our potential,
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09:51
falling victims to our fears, our stereotypes, our dogmas,
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成為我們恐懼、刻板印象、圭臬的受害者
09:55
taking our citizens out of the process
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把人民從這個過程中抽離
09:57
rather than building the process around our citizens.
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而不是讓他們融入這個過程
10:02
And doing so will only test the faith
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這麼做只會更加考驗
人民在這個民主過程的信念
人民在這個民主過程的信念
10:04
of our citizens, of our peoples, even more
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2408
10:06
in the democratic process.
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10:09
It's no wonder that many political leaders,
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難怪很多政治領袖
10:11
and I don't exclude myself,
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2518
包括我自己
10:13
have lost the trust of our people.
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會失去人民的信任
10:16
When riot police have to protect parliaments,
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當鎮暴警察需要保護議會的時候
10:20
a scene which is increasingly common around the world,
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這是一個在全球越來越普遍的畫面
10:24
then there's something deeply wrong with our democracies.
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那麼我們的民主就出了很大的問題
10:29
That's why I called for a referendum to have the Greek people
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這就是為什麼我要舉辦公投
10:33
own and decide on the terms of the rescue package.
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讓希臘的人民決定紓困方案
10:37
My European counterparts, some of them, at least,
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至少有一些我的歐洲同伴
10:39
said, "You can't do this.
197
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說：「你不能這麼做
10:41
There will be havoc in the markets again."
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會帶給市場另一場混亂。」
10:45
I said, "We need to, before we restore confidence in the markets,
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我說：「我們必須這麼做
在我們重建市場的信心之前
在我們重建市場的信心之前
10:50
we need to restore confidence and trust amongst our people."
200
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我們必須重建人民的信心以及信任。」
10:55
Since leaving office, I have had time to reflect.
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自從辭職以來，我有了時間來省思
10:58
We have weathered the storm, in Greece and in Europe,
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在歐洲和希臘，我們飽受風暴的摧殘
11:03
but we remain challenged.
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但是我們仍面臨挑戰
11:06
If politics is the power to imagine and use our potential,
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如果政治是用來想像
以及運用我們的潛力的力量
以及運用我們的潛力的力量
11:09
well then 60-percent youth unemployment in Greece,
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4144
那麼在希臘和其它國家 60% 的青年失業率
11:13
and in other countries, certainly is a lack of imagination
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如果不是缺乏同情
11:16
if not a lack of compassion.
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就是缺乏想像力
11:19
So far, we've thrown economics at the problem,
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2541
到目前為止，我們把經濟當作解決問題的方法
11:21
actually mostly austerity,
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事實上，大部分是樽節
11:24
and certainly we could have designed alternatives,
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3230
當然我們可以設計出不同的替代方案
11:27
a different strategy, a green stimulus for green jobs,
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3322
不同的策略、給綠能產業點綠色振興方案
11:30
or mutualized debt, Eurobonds which would
212
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3452
或是能夠援助需要幫助的國家
11:34
support countries in need from market pressures,
213
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3124
脫離市場壓力的相互債、歐洲債券
11:37
these would have been much more viable alternatives.
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這些都是更可行的替代方案
11:40
Yet I have come to believe that the problem is not so much
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但是我認為這個問題
並不全然是經濟的問題
並不全然是經濟的問題
11:42
one of economics as it is one of democracy.
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3959
也是民主的問題
11:46
So let's try something else.
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所以讓我們來試試別的
11:48
Let's see how we can bring people back to the process.
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我們來看看要如何
把人民拉回到這個過程之中
把人民拉回到這個過程之中
11:51
Let's throw democracy at the problem.
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3103
我們把民主當作解決方法
11:54
Again, the Ancient Greeks, with all their shortcomings,
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再說一次，並非完美的古希臘
11:57
believed in the wisdom of the crowd
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在全盛時期相信群眾的智慧
12:00
at their best moments. In people we trust.
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我們信任人民
12:03
Democracy could not work without the citizens
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3343
人民不深思熟慮、辯論、
不為公眾事務承擔責任
不為公眾事務承擔責任
12:06
deliberating, debating, taking on public responsibilities
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4373
12:10
for public affairs.
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1934
民主就無法運作
12:12
Average citizens often were chosen for citizen juries
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公民有相等的機會被選為公民陪審團
12:15
to decide on critical matters of the day.
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來決定重大的事項
12:19
Science, theater, research, philosophy,
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科學、劇院、研究、哲學
12:22
games of the mind and the body,
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身體與心靈的遊戲
12:25
they were daily exercises.
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它們是日常的活動
12:26
Actually they were an education for participation,
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4152
事實上它們是為了讓人民參與、
12:30
for the potential, for growing the potential of our citizens.
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讓人民發揮潛力的教育
12:34
And those who shunned politics, well, they were idiots.
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4536
那些規避政治的人，嗯，他們是白癡
12:38
You see, in Ancient Greece, in ancient Athens,
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你看，在古希臘，古雅典
12:42
that term originated there.
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2271
這個詞就是從那裏來的
12:44
"Idiot" comes from the root "idio," oneself.
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4793
「白癡」(idiot) 這個詞是從
「自我」(idio) 這個字根來的
「自我」(idio) 這個字根來的
12:49
A person who is self-centered, secluded, excluded,
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一個自我中心、孤僻、抗拒
12:52
someone who doesn't participate or even examine public affairs.
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4715
不參與，甚至不檢視公眾事務的人
12:57
And participation took place in the agora, the agora having two meanings,
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參與就發生在集市 (agora)，而集市有兩層意思
13:00
both a marketplace and a place where there was political deliberation.
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一個市場或是一個議論政治的地方
13:07
You see, markets and politics then were one, unified,
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你瞧，市場和政治在當時是同一件事、是一體的
13:11
accessible, transparent, because they gave power to the people.
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可碰觸的、透明的，因為它們賦予了人民權力
13:14
They serve the demos, democracy.
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它們是民主的樣本
13:19
Above government, above markets
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在政府之上，在市場之上的
13:22
was the direct rule of the people.
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就是由人民直接治理
13:24
Today we have globalized the markets
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今天我們把市場全球化了
13:27
but we have not globalized our democratic institutions.
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但是我們沒有把民主制度全球化
13:32
So our politicians are limited to local politics,
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所以我們的政客們被限制在地方政治
13:36
while our citizens, even though they see a great potential,
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即使人民看到了相當大的潛力
13:40
are prey to forces beyond their control.
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仍然受到非他們所能控制的力量所苦
13:44
So how then do we reunite the two halves of the agora?
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所以我們要如何
再次結合集市的兩層意義呢？
再次結合集市的兩層意義呢？
13:47
How do we democratize globalization?
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我們要如何將全球化民主化？
13:49
And I'm not talking about the necessary reforms
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我不是在說聯合國和 G20 所需要的改革
13:52
of the United Nations or the G20.
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13:55
I'm talking about, how do we secure the space,
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我說的是，我們要如何拯救這個地方、
13:57
the demos, the platform of values,
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2501
這個樣本、這個價值觀念的平台？
14:00
so that we can tap into all of your potential?
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5560
如此一來，我們就可以利用你們的潛力
14:05
Well, this is exactly where I think Europe fits in.
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嗯，這就是我心目中對歐洲的定位
14:09
Europe, despite its recent failures,
259
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2400
拋開最近的失敗
14:11
is the world's most successful cross-border peace experiment.
260
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4568
歐洲是全世界最成功的跨國界和平實驗
14:16
So let's see if it can't be an experiment
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因此讓我們來看看能不能做個全球民主實驗
14:19
in global democracy, a new kind of democracy.
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一種嶄新的民主
14:23
Let's see if we can't design a European agora,
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看看我們能不能設計一種歐洲的集市
14:27
not simply for products and services,
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2532
不只是為了產品以及服務
14:29
but for our citizens, where they can work together,
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3243
也為了人民，讓他們能夠合作
14:32
deliberate, learn from each other,
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商討、互相學習
14:34
exchange between art and cultures,
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3216
交換藝術以及文化
14:37
where they can come up with creative solutions.
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3699
讓他們能想出有創意的解決方法
14:41
Let's imagine that European citizens
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試著想像歐洲人民
14:44
actually have the power to vote directly
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2294
真的有能力直接選舉出
14:46
for a European president,
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一位歐洲總統
14:49
or citizen juries chosen by lottery
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或是用抽籤的方式選出
14:53
which can deliberate on critical and controversial issues,
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4226
能夠商討重要事項和爭議議題的人民陪審團
14:57
a European-wide referendum where our citizens,
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3168
一個橫跨歐洲的公投，讓人民成為立法者
15:00
as the lawmakers, vote on future treaties.
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一起投票決定未來的條約
15:05
And here's an idea:
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我在這裡提供一個想法：
15:07
Why not have the first truly European citizens
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2924
我們何不嘗試給予移民者歐洲公民身分──
15:10
by giving our immigrants,
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2020
不是希臘、德國、
15:12
not Greek or German or Swedish citizenship,
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4112
或是瑞典的公民身分──
15:16
but a European citizenship?
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3623
而是歐洲公民的身分
15:20
And make sure we actually empower
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2887
而且確定我們能給予失業者學習禮券
15:23
the unemployed by giving them a voucher scholarship
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2779
賦予他們能夠在歐洲任何地方學習的權利
15:26
where they can choose to study anywhere in Europe.
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3469
15:29
Where our common identity is democracy,
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4481
在那裡，我們的共同身分是民主
15:34
where our education is through participation,
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4964
在那裡，我們透過參與來教育
15:39
and where participation builds trust
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3473
在那裡，參與能夠建立信任以及團結
15:42
and solidarity rather than exclusion and xenophobia.
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而不是排斥以及仇外
15:46
Europe of and by the people,
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1662
由人民組成及建立的歐洲
15:48
a Europe, an experiment in deepening and widening
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4098
一個具有更深、更廣的民主制度
15:52
democracy beyond borders.
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3016
的跨越國界歐洲
15:55
Now, some might accuse me of being naive,
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3838
現在，有些人可能會指責我太天真
15:59
putting my faith in the power and the wisdom of the people.
292
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4871
天真到去相信人民的力量以及智慧
16:03
Well, after decades in politics, I am also a pragmatist.
293
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4769
嗯，從政數十年之後，我也是一個實用主義者
16:08
Believe me, I have been,
294
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2556
相信我，我在過去和現在
16:11
I am, part of today's political system,
295
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3660
都身處於現代政治體系中的一部分
16:14
and I know things must change.
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4637
而我了解有些東西必須改變
16:19
We must revive politics as the power to imagine,
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4288
我們必須讓政治重生，並讓它成為
想像、重新想像、設計
一個更美好世界的力量
一個更美好世界的力量
16:23
reimagine, and redesign for a better world.
298
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5223
16:29
But I also know that this disruptive force of change
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2814
但是我也知道現今的政治沒有
16:31
won't be driven by the politics of today.
300
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3064
這樣顛覆性的改變力量
16:34
The revival of democratic politics
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2296
民主政治的重生
16:37
will come from you, and I mean all of you.
302
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4420
將由你們而生，我指的是你們每一位
16:41
Everyone who participates in this global exchange of ideas,
303
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3986
任何參與這場全球性改變的人
16:45
whether it's here in this room
304
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1049
不論是否在這個房間裡
16:46
or just outside this room
305
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2213
或是在房間外面
16:48
or online or locally, where everybody lives,
306
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3834
或是在網路上、在大家住的地方
16:52
everyone who stands up to injustice and inequality,
307
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3320
任何勇敢對抗不公不義的人
16:56
everybody who stands up to those who preach
308
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2720
任何勇敢對抗那些宣揚種族岐視
16:58
racism rather than empathy,
309
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2264
而非同理心的人
17:01
dogma rather than critical thinking,
310
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2816
對抗宣揚教條而非選擇批判性思考的人
17:03
technocracy rather than democracy,
311
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2316
對抗宣揚技術官僚統治
而非選擇民主政治的人
而非選擇民主政治的人
17:06
everyone who stands up to the unchecked power,
312
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2975
對抗那些不受約束權力的人
17:09
whether it's authoritarian leaders,
313
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2121
不論那是獨裁領導人、
17:11
plutocrats hiding their assets in tax havens,
314
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3436
將財富藏在避稅天堂的財閥
17:14
or powerful lobbies protecting the powerful few.
315
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3920
或是保護少數有力人士的有力遊說者
17:18
It is in their interest that all of us are idiots.
316
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5433
我們全是笨蛋，對他們最有利
17:24
Let's not be.
317
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1486
別當笨蛋
17:25
Thank you.
318
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1240
謝謝
17:26
(Applause)
319
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11910
（掌聲）
17:38
Bruno Giussani: You seem to describe a political leadership
320
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1913
布魯諾．朱薩尼 (Bruno Giussani)：
你似乎敘述了一段有點沒準備好的
你似乎敘述了一段有點沒準備好的
17:40
that is kind of unprepared
321
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2185
政治領導人生涯
17:42
and a prisoner of the whims of the financial markets,
322
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2782
以及一個被囚禁在對商場有怪念頭的人
17:45
and that scene in Brussels that you describe, to me,
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2360
還有，你所敘述的那段布魯塞爾的景象
17:47
as a citizen, is terrifying.
324
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2503
對我這個人民來說相當駭人
17:50
Help us understand how you felt after the decision.
325
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4299
幫助我們了解你在
決定之後的感覺是什麼
決定之後的感覺是什麼
17:54
It was not a good decision, clearly,
326
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1568
那顯然不是一個好的決定
17:56
but how do you feel after that, not as the prime minister,
327
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2584
但是身為喬治，而不是總理
17:58
but as George?
328
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2189
你在那之後的感覺是什麼？
18:01
George Papandreou: Well, obviously there were constraints
329
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2542
喬治：嗯，顯然有某種束縛
18:03
which didn't allow me or others to make
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3926
讓我或是其他人在當時無法做出
18:07
the types of decisions we would have wanted,
331
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1440
我們心目中的決定
18:09
and obviously I had hoped that we would have the time
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顯然我也曾希望我們能有時間
18:11
to make the reforms which would have dealt
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能夠進行改革，來處理赤字
18:13
with the deficit rather than trying to cut the deficit
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而不是嘗試減少赤字
18:15
which was the symptom of the problem.
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演變成這個問題所顯現的症狀
18:17
And that hurt. That hurt because that, first of all,
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那很傷人
首先是因為
首先是因為
18:19
hurt the younger generation, and not only,
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它傷害了年輕一代，而不僅是他們
18:23
many of them are demonstrating outside,
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還有許多在外示威遊行的人們
18:25
but I think this is one of our problems.
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但我認為這只是我們的其中一個問題而已
18:26
When we face these crises, we have kept the potential,
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當我們面對這些危機，我們並沒有在過程中
18:32
the huge potential of our society out of this process,
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運用我們社會的巨大潛力
18:35
and we are closing in on ourselves in politics,
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我們把自己關在政治圈裡
18:38
and I think we need to change that, to really find
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而我認為我們應當改變
18:40
new participatory ways using the great capabilities
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利用現有的強大科技，但那不僅僅是科技
還有我們的內心
還有我們的內心
18:45
that now exist even in technology but not only in technology,
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來找出新的參與方法
18:48
the minds that we have, and I think we can find solutions
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我認為我們能找出更好的辦法
18:51
which are much better, but we have to be open.
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但我們必須有開闊的胸襟
18:53
BG: You seem to suggest that the way forward
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喬治：你似乎想建議，若要進步的話
需要有一體化的歐洲
需要有一體化的歐洲
18:54
is more Europe, and that is not to be an easy discourse
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而這論述目前對大部分的歐洲國家來說
18:58
right now in most European countries.
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並不容易進行
19:00
It's rather the other way -- more closed borders
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現在的情況剛好相反──較封閉的邊界
19:03
and less cooperation and maybe even stepping out
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以及較少的合作，有些國家甚至沒有不參與
19:06
of some of the different parts of the European construction.
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其它部分歐洲的建設
19:10
How do you reconcile that?
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你要怎麼協調？
19:11
GP: Well, I think one of the worst things that happened
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布魯諾：嗯，我認為在這場危機之中
19:14
during this crisis is that we started a blame game.
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所發生最糟的事情就是我們開始互相怪罪
19:16
And the fundamental idea of Europe is that
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歐洲最根本的概念就是
19:20
we can cooperate beyond borders,
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我們能夠從事跨國界的合作
19:22
go beyond our conflicts and work together.
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不發生衝突且同心協力
19:24
And the paradox is that, because we have this blame game,
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矛盾之處在於我們開始互相怪罪
19:30
we have less the potential to convince our citizens
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因此我們說服人民我們應該合作
19:33
that we should work together,
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的力量就相形薄弱
19:35
while now is the time when we really need
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而現在就是我們應該
19:37
to bring our powers together.
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同心協力的時刻
19:39
Now, more Europe for me is not simply
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現在一體化的歐洲對我來說
不單單只是給予布魯塞爾更大的權力
19:42
giving more power to Brussels.
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19:43
It is actually giving more power to the citizens of Europe,
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而其實是給歐洲人民更大的權力
19:47
that is, really making Europe a project of the people.
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也就是讓歐洲成為人民的計畫
19:51
So that, I think, would be a way to answer
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我認為這是較好的方式
來回應一部分人民在社會中的恐懼
19:53
some of the fears that we have in our society.
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19:56
BG: George, thank you for coming to TED.
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布魯諾：喬治，謝謝你來 TED
19:58
GP: Thank you very much.BG: Thank you.(Applause)
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喬治：非常感謝
布魯諾：謝謝
布魯諾：謝謝
（掌聲）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
George Papandreou - Former Prime Minister of GreeceGeorge Papandreou draws on lessons learned from the Greek debt crisis as he helps guide the EU through difficult waters.
Why you should listen
George Papandreou, a third-generation scion of Greece’s defining political dynasty, entered the global spotlight with his attempts to re-invent his country during the darkest hours of the European debt crisis. Upon becoming Prime Minister in 2009, his government inherited a deficit that was much larger than had been reported. As PM, he implemented major changes and reforms, but was overtaken by events beyond his government's control.
Papandreou resigned his Prime Minister post in November 2011 as part of a deal to pave the way for a coalition government to restore Grecian stability, but remains a powerful figure as an MP and as President of the Socialist International.
As he says: “We do have a choice. Either we empower Europe and its citizens and become a catalyst for humanizing our global economy, or globalization will dehumanize our societies and undermine the European project. As a citizen of Europe, I vote for the first choice."
George Papandreou | Speaker | TED.com