TEDxGroningen
Alison Killing: What happens when a city runs out of room for its dead
艾莉森．凱琳: 如果一個城市死無葬身之地
Filmed:
Readability: 3.8
1,532,318 views
艾莉森．凱琳說：「在英國，如果你想開辦墓園，你是可以辦到的 。」她想了很多有關於我們要在哪裡死亡及埋葬的問題，在這次談話中， 建築師兼TED研究員的她，用令我們大開眼界的經濟與社會觀點，談論城鎮中經常被忽視的一項功能規劃：墓地。她以輕鬆、迷人、搞笑的方式，在演說中特別提到英國法律中關於你可以葬在哪裡的矛盾之處。
Alison Killing - Architect
An architect and urban designer, Alison Killing uses journalism, filmmaking and exhibitions to help people better understand the built environment. Full bio
An architect and urban designer, Alison Killing uses journalism, filmmaking and exhibitions to help people better understand the built environment. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
So, I have an overlooked
but potentially lucrative
but potentially lucrative
0
919
4342
我有一個被人們忽視，
但很有搞頭的投資機會
要介紹給你們。
要介紹給你們。
00:17
investment opportunity for you.
1
5285
1979
00:20
Over the past 10 years in the UK,
2
8447
2414
過去10年，在英國
00:22
the return on burial plots
has outperformed the UK property market
has outperformed the UK property market
3
10885
3435
墓地的投資報酬率比
英國的房地產還要好，
英國的房地產還要好，
00:26
by a ratio of around three to one.
4
14344
2303
兩者的比例大致為 3:1
有些私人的墓園被開發出來
提供給投資者購買，
提供給投資者購買，
00:29
There are private cemeteries being set up
with plots for sale to investors,
with plots for sale to investors,
5
17924
3822
00:33
and they start at around 3,900 pounds.
6
21770
3144
價格從大約3900英鎊起跳。
00:36
And they're projected to achieve
about 40 percent growth.
about 40 percent growth.
7
24938
3522
他們預估可達到百分之四十的成長率。
00:40
The biggest advantage is that this
is a market with continuous demand.
is a market with continuous demand.
8
28484
5068
最大的優點是...
這是一個有持續性需求的市場.....(笑聲)
現在，這真的是一門生意
00:47
Now, this is a real proposition,
9
35996
2065
00:50
and there are companies out there
that really are offering this investment,
that really are offering this investment,
10
38085
4446
而且真有公司提供
這樣的投資標的，
這樣的投資標的，
00:54
but my interest in it is quite different.
11
42555
2762
但是，我對它有個很不一樣的興趣。
我是一個建築師和城市設計師，
00:57
I'm an architect and urban designer,
12
45713
2042
00:59
and for the past year and a half,
13
47779
1591
而在過去的一年半，
01:01
I've been looking at approaches
to death and dying
to death and dying
14
49394
3000
我都在研究死亡和臨終的方法，
01:04
and at how they've shaped our cities
and the buildings within them.
and the buildings within them.
15
52418
3311
以及研究墓地是如何塑造
我們的城市和裡面的建築物。
我們的城市和裡面的建築物。
今年夏天，我在威尼斯舉辦了我的第一個
01:08
So in the summer,
I did my first exhibition
I did my first exhibition
16
56515
3160
01:11
on death and architecture in Venice,
17
59699
2516
有關死亡和建築的展覽會。
01:14
and it was called "Death in Venice."
18
62239
1880
展覽的名字是「 威尼斯之死 」
因為死亡是一個
01:16
And because death is a subject
19
64563
2001
01:18
that many of us find quite
uncomfortable to talk about,
uncomfortable to talk about,
20
66588
3057
我們許多人很不喜歡談的主題，
01:21
the exhibition was designed
to be quite playful,
to be quite playful,
21
69669
2325
展覽會設計得很俏皮，
01:24
so that people would
literally engage with it.
literally engage with it.
22
72018
2499
來使人們真正願意參與。
01:26
So one of our exhibits
was an interactive map of London
was an interactive map of London
23
74882
3545
我們的展出其中一項是倫敦的互動地圖，
01:30
which showed just how much
of the real estate in the city
of the real estate in the city
24
78451
3018
顯示倫敦有多少房地產
01:33
is given over to death.
25
81493
1950
是提供給死亡這件事情。
01:35
As you wave your hand across the map,
26
83467
2182
當你在地圖上揮揮手，
01:37
the name of the piece of real estate --
the building or the cemetery --
the building or the cemetery --
27
85673
3505
這些房地產 － 大樓或是墓地的名字
就會顯示出來。
就會顯示出來。
01:41
is revealed.
28
89202
1150
01:42
And those white shapes that you can see,
29
90733
2740
你們看到的白色形狀的
01:45
they're all of the hospitals and hospices
30
93497
2909
是市區內的醫院和臨終關懷院
01:48
and mortuaries and cemeteries in the city.
31
96430
2731
以及太平間和墓地。
01:51
In fact, the majority are cemeteries.
32
99185
2062
事實上，大多數都是墓地。
01:53
We wanted to show that, even though
death and burial are things
death and burial are things
33
101652
4702
我們想證明，即使死亡和埋葬
可能是我們平常不會去想的事情，
01:58
that we might not think about,
34
106378
1491
01:59
they're all around us, and they're
important parts of our cities.
important parts of our cities.
35
107893
3530
但它們環繞著我們，
而且是我們城市中很重要的部分。
而且是我們城市中很重要的部分。
02:04
So about half a million people
die in the UK each year,
die in the UK each year,
36
112035
4460
英國每年大約有50萬人死亡，
02:08
and of those, around a quarter
will want to be buried.
will want to be buried.
37
116519
3029
其中，大約四分之一的人希望被土葬。
02:11
But the UK, like many
Western European countries,
Western European countries,
38
119572
3940
但是在英國，和許多西歐的國家一樣，
02:15
is running out of burial space,
39
123536
1675
都快要沒有埋葬的土地。
02:17
especially in the major cities.
40
125235
1880
特別是在各大主要城市。
02:19
And the Greater London Authority
has been aware of this for a while,
has been aware of this for a while,
41
127670
3516
大倫敦當權者早就
意識到這一點了，
意識到這一點了，
02:23
and the main causes are population growth,
42
131210
3468
主要的原因是人口成長，
02:26
the fact that existing
cemeteries are almost full.
cemeteries are almost full.
43
134702
2841
以及現存墓地容量幾乎全滿。
02:29
There's a custom in the UK that graves
are considered to be occupied forever,
are considered to be occupied forever,
44
137567
4307
英國有一個不成文慣例，
墳墓被認為是可永久佔有的，
墳墓被認為是可永久佔有的，
02:33
and there's also development pressure --
people want to use that same land
people want to use that same land
45
141898
3727
但是也有發展的壓力 －
人們也想利用同樣的地
人們也想利用同樣的地
02:37
to build houses or offices or shops.
46
145649
3559
來蓋房子，辦公室，或店面。
所以，他們想出幾個辦法。
02:41
So they came up with a few solutions.
47
149896
1801
02:43
They were like, well, maybe we can
reuse those graves after 50 years.
reuse those graves after 50 years.
48
151721
4043
一個是，或許我們可以重新使用
已經埋了50年以上的墳墓。
已經埋了50年以上的墳墓。
02:47
Or maybe we can bury people,
like, four deep,
like, four deep,
49
155788
2313
或者，或許我們在同一塊地
02:50
so that four people can be buried
in the same plot,
in the same plot,
50
158125
2988
的四個不同深度埋四個人，
02:53
and we can make more efficient use
of the land that way,
of the land that way,
51
161137
2643
這樣就可以更有效率地使用那塊地，
02:55
and in that way, hopefully London
will still have space to bury people
will still have space to bury people
52
163804
3340
這樣做之後，希望倫敦在短期內
還擁有足夠的墓地來埋葬人。
02:59
in the near future.
53
167168
1151
03:01
But, traditionally, cemeteries
haven't been taken care of
haven't been taken care of
54
169106
2662
但是，傳統上，墓地從來沒有
被地方當權者重視過。
03:03
by the local authority.
55
171792
1740
03:05
In fact, the surprising thing is that
there's no legal obligation
there's no legal obligation
56
173556
3366
事實上，令人意想不到的是，
在英國任何人都沒有法律義務
必須要提供安葬空間。
必須要提供安葬空間。
03:08
on anyone in the UK
to provide burial space.
to provide burial space.
57
176946
3029
傳統上，都是私人和宗教組織在提供，
03:12
Traditionally, it's been done
by private and religious organizations,
by private and religious organizations,
58
180499
4783
03:17
like churches and mosques and synagogues.
59
185306
2811
比如教堂、清真寺以及猶太會堂，
03:20
But there's also occasionally
been a for-profit group
been a for-profit group
60
188510
3925
但偶爾也會有盈利組織
想要插花搞一下。
想要插花搞一下。
03:24
who has wanted to get in on the act.
61
192459
2017
03:26
And, you know, they look at
the small size of a burial plot
the small size of a burial plot
62
194500
3505
他們專注在小尺寸、
03:30
and that high cost,
63
198029
1668
高單價的墓地，
03:31
and it looks like there's
serious money to be made.
serious money to be made.
64
199721
2492
這看起來似乎真的很有搞頭。
03:34
So, actually, if you want to go out
and start your own cemetery,
and start your own cemetery,
65
202580
3714
所以，事實上，
如果你想開始經營自己的墳場，
如果你想開始經營自己的墳場，
你是可以辦到的。
03:38
you kind of can.
66
206318
1423
03:39
There was this couple in South Wales,
67
207765
2136
有這麼一對南威爾士的夫妻，
03:41
and they had a farmhouse
and a load of fields next to it,
and a load of fields next to it,
68
209925
3236
他們有一個農舍，旁邊還有一大片地，
03:45
and they wanted to develop the land.
69
213185
2131
他們想要開發這塊地。
03:47
They had a load of ideas.
70
215340
1401
他們有很多的想法，
03:48
They first thought about making
a caravan park,
a caravan park,
71
216765
3114
他們第一個想法是
做一個露營車公園，
做一個露營車公園，
03:51
but the council said no.
72
219903
1714
但是地方議會說不行。
03:53
And then they wanted to make a fish farm
73
221641
1968
然後他們想弄一個養魚場，
03:55
and again the council said no.
74
223633
1721
地方議會還是說不行。
03:57
Then they hit on the idea
of making a cemetery
of making a cemetery
75
225751
2671
然後他們想到了蓋墳場的主意，
04:00
and they calculated that by doing this,
76
228446
2056
他們計算過，如果這樣做
04:02
they could increase
the value of their land
the value of their land
77
230526
2517
可以提升他們的土地價值。
04:05
from about 95,000 pounds
to over one million pounds.
to over one million pounds.
78
233067
4729
大概從 9.5萬英磅提升到
超過100萬英磅。
超過100萬英磅。
04:10
But just to come back to this idea
of making profit from cemeteries,
of making profit from cemeteries,
79
238802
4759
但....回過頭來想想，
這個透過墳場來獲利的主意
這個透過墳場來獲利的主意
04:15
like, it's kind of ludicrous, right?
80
243585
2070
好像有點荒唐可笑，對吧？
04:18
The thing is that the high cost
of those burial plots
of those burial plots
81
246267
3513
事情是這樣的，這些墓地的高單價
04:21
is actually very misleading.
82
249804
2116
其實非常誤導人。
04:23
They look like they're expensive,
83
251944
1787
它們看起來似乎很貴，
04:25
but that cost reflects the fact that
you need to maintain the burial plot --
you need to maintain the burial plot --
84
253755
4202
但這個價格也反映出一個事實
--你需要去維護這些墓地，
--你需要去維護這些墓地，
04:29
like, someone has to cut the grass
for the next 50 years.
for the next 50 years.
85
257981
3308
比如說，在接下來的50年裡
需要有人去除草。
需要有人去除草。
04:33
That means it's very difficult
to make money from cemeteries.
to make money from cemeteries.
86
261313
2897
那就意味著很難從墓園中賺到錢。
04:36
And it's the reason that normally
they're run by the council
they're run by the council
87
264234
2825
這也是為什麼通常
這些墓園是被地方議會
這些墓園是被地方議會
04:39
or by a not-for-profit group.
88
267083
1996
或者非盈利組織經營。
04:41
But anyway, the council granted
these people permission,
these people permission,
89
269103
2651
但不管怎麼說，
這些人獲得了地方議會的批准，
這些人獲得了地方議會的批准，
04:43
and they're now trying
to build their cemetery.
to build their cemetery.
90
271778
2451
他們正在試著建造他們的墓園。
04:46
So just to explain to you
kind of how this works:
kind of how this works:
91
274253
3320
跟你們解釋一下這件事是如何操作的：
04:49
If I want to build something in the UK,
92
277597
2057
在英國，如果我想蓋個什麼東西，
04:51
like a cemetery for example,
93
279678
2192
比如說一個墓園，
04:53
then I have to apply
for planning permission first.
for planning permission first.
94
281894
2974
那麼我首先得申請規劃許可，
04:56
So if I want to build a new
office building for a client
office building for a client
95
284892
4210
因此如果我想幫客戶
蓋一棟新的辦公大樓
蓋一棟新的辦公大樓
05:01
or if I want to extend my home
96
289126
2254
或是擴建自己的房屋，
05:03
or, you know, if I have a shop
and I want to convert it into an office,
and I want to convert it into an office,
97
291404
3769
或者，如果我有一個商店，
想把它改成辦公室，
想把它改成辦公室，
05:07
I have to do a load of drawings,
98
295197
1531
我得畫很多圖，
05:08
and I submit them
to the council for permission.
to the council for permission.
99
296752
2436
然後提交到地方議會去批准，
05:11
And they'll look at things like
how it fits in the surroundings.
how it fits in the surroundings.
100
299212
3957
然後他們會調查它與
周圍的環境是否搭配，
周圍的環境是否搭配，
05:15
So they'll look at what it looks like.
101
303193
2032
所以他們會仔細看
這個規劃長什麼樣子。
這個規劃長什麼樣子。
05:17
But they'll also think about things
like what impact is it going to have
like what impact is it going to have
102
305249
3596
但他們也會考慮
這將來會給當地環境
這將來會給當地環境
05:20
on the local environment?
103
308869
1475
帶來什麼樣的影響？
05:22
And they'll be thinking about things like,
104
310368
2040
他們也會考慮，比如說
05:24
is this thing going to cause pollution
105
312432
1841
這個規劃會導致污染嗎？
05:26
or is there going to be a lot of traffic
106
314297
1928
或者會不會有很大的交通流量
05:28
that wants to go to this thing
that I've built?
that I've built?
107
316249
2333
湧向我蓋好的標的物？
05:30
But also good things.
108
318606
1380
但也會考慮正面的影響，
05:32
Is it going to add local services
like shops to the neighborhood
like shops to the neighborhood
109
320010
3317
它附近是否會增加像是商店這類
本地居民會想使用的服務設施？
05:35
that local people would like to use?
110
323351
2062
之後他們會權衡利弊，
05:38
And they'll weigh up the advantages
and the disadvantages
and the disadvantages
111
326183
2694
05:40
and they'll make a decision.
112
328901
1436
然後做出決定。
05:42
So that's how it works if I want
to build a large cemetery.
to build a large cemetery.
113
330908
3972
所以，如果我想蓋一座大型墓園，
就得這樣操作。
就得這樣操作。
但是如果我有一塊地，
05:47
But what if I've got a piece of land
114
335356
1994
05:49
and I just want to bury
a few people, like five or six?
a few people, like five or six?
115
337374
3318
而我只想在裡面埋葬少數的人，
例如5或6個，又會怎樣？
例如5或6個，又會怎樣？
05:53
Well, then -- actually, I don't need
permission from anyone!
permission from anyone!
116
341533
3619
那麼，事實上，我不需要任何人批准！
05:57
There's actually almost no regulation
in the UK around burial,
in the UK around burial,
117
345850
4366
在英國實際上幾乎沒有
殯葬的相關規定，
殯葬的相關規定，
06:02
and the little bit that there is,
is about not polluting water courses,
is about not polluting water courses,
118
350240
3643
僅有的一點就是，不能污染水源，
06:05
like not polluting rivers or groundwater.
119
353907
2610
比如說不能污染河流或者地下水。
所以，如果你想建造你的小墓園，
06:08
So actually, if you want to go
and make your own mini-cemetery,
and make your own mini-cemetery,
120
356962
3024
06:12
then you can.
121
360010
1295
是沒問題的。
06:13
But I mean, like -- really,
who does this? Right?
who does this? Right?
122
361329
3428
但我的意思是，說真的，
誰會這樣做？對吧？
誰會這樣做？對吧？
如果你是一個貴族家庭
並且擁有大片土地，
並且擁有大片土地，
06:18
Well, if you're an aristocratic family
and you have a large estate,
and you have a large estate,
123
366011
3618
06:21
then there's a chance that you'll
have a mausoleum on it,
have a mausoleum on it,
124
369653
2683
那麼你有機會蓋一個陵墓，
06:24
and you'll bury your family there.
125
372360
1809
並將你的家族成員埋葬於此。
但真正奇怪的是
06:26
But the really weird thing
126
374708
2159
06:28
is that you don't need to have
a piece of land of a certain size
a piece of land of a certain size
127
376891
3369
在你要開始埋葬一個人之前，
06:32
before you're allowed
to start burying people on it.
to start burying people on it.
128
380284
2602
你不需要擁有一塊某種大小的地。
06:34
And so that means that, technically,
129
382910
1945
也就是說，技術上，
06:36
this applies to, like, the back garden
of your house in the suburbs.
of your house in the suburbs.
130
384879
3689
在你郊區家中的後花園也可以。
( 笑聲 )
06:40
(Laughter)
131
388592
1329
06:42
So what if you wanted
to try this yourself at home?
to try this yourself at home?
132
390370
4024
所以，如果你想要自己在家搞墓園，
要怎麼做呢?
要怎麼做呢?
06:46
Well, there's a few councils
that have guidance on their website
that have guidance on their website
133
394418
4048
是的，有一些地方議會網站上
是有些指引可以幫助你的。
06:50
which can help you.
134
398490
1387
06:51
So, the first thing that they tell you
135
399901
2094
第一件事情他們會告訴你，
06:54
is that you need to have a certificate
of burial before you can go ahead --
of burial before you can go ahead --
136
402019
3736
在開始之前，你必須要有埋葬證書 －
06:57
you're not allowed to just murder people
and put them under the patio.
and put them under the patio.
137
405779
3348
謀殺某些人然後把他們
埋在天井是行不通的。
埋在天井是行不通的。
07:01
(Laughter)
138
409151
2000
( 笑聲 )
他們也會告訴，你要把
墳墓的位置紀錄下來。
墳墓的位置紀錄下來。
07:04
They also tell you that you need to keep
a record of where the grave is.
a record of where the grave is.
139
412253
3803
07:08
But that's pretty much it
for formal requirements.
for formal requirements.
140
416080
2633
但這些只是正式的要求。
07:10
Now, they do warn you that
your neighbors might not like this,
your neighbors might not like this,
141
418737
3002
他們還會警告你，
你的鄰居可能不會喜歡，
你的鄰居可能不會喜歡，
07:13
but, legally speaking, there's almost
nothing that they can do about it.
nothing that they can do about it.
142
421763
3903
但就法律而言，
他們幾乎一點也沒輒。
他們幾乎一點也沒輒。
07:17
And just in case any of you
still had that profit idea in your mind
still had that profit idea in your mind
143
425690
5166
但萬一你們任何人之中
仍有想賺錢的念頭呢？
仍有想賺錢的念頭呢？
07:22
about how much those burial plots cost
144
430880
2261
例如，這些墓地要花多少成本，
07:25
and how much money
you might be able to make,
you might be able to make,
145
433165
2348
然後大概可以賺多少，
07:27
they also warn that it might cause
the value of your house
the value of your house
146
435537
2746
他們也會警告你，
你的計劃可能會造成房價
你的計劃可能會造成房價
07:30
to drop by 20 percent.
147
438307
1730
下跌20%。
雖然事實上，在那之後
大概也沒人會想買你的房子
大概也沒人會想買你的房子
07:32
Although, actually, it's more likely
148
440515
1747
07:34
that no one will want to buy
your house at all after that.
your house at all after that.
149
442286
2968
所以，我發現這件事迷人的地方
07:38
So what I find fascinating about this
150
446341
2559
07:40
is the fact that it kind of sums up
many of our attitudes towards death.
many of our attitudes towards death.
151
448924
4665
就是它可以歸納出
社會大眾面對死亡的態度。
社會大眾面對死亡的態度。
在英國，而我想在歐洲
應該也是差不多的數字，
應該也是差不多的數字，
07:46
In the UK, and I think that the figures
across Europe are probably similar,
across Europe are probably similar,
152
454280
4416
07:50
only about 30 percent of people
have ever talked to anyone
have ever talked to anyone
153
458720
3111
只有30%的人曾經與其他人
談論過關於死亡這件事的願望，
談論過關於死亡這件事的願望，
07:53
about their wishes around death,
154
461855
1692
甚至是超過75歲的人，
07:55
and even for people over 75,
155
463571
1910
07:57
only 45 percent of people
have ever talked about this.
have ever talked about this.
156
465505
3586
只有45%的人曾經討論過死亡。
而人們給的答案就是...你知道的，
08:01
And the reasons that
people give ... you know,
people give ... you know,
157
469464
2675
他們認為死亡離自己還很遠，
08:04
they think that their death is far off
158
472163
1821
08:06
or they think that they're going
to make people uncomfortable
to make people uncomfortable
159
474008
2877
或者他們認為，談論死亡
會讓對方不舒服。
會讓對方不舒服。
08:08
by talking about it.
160
476909
1386
而你也知道，在某種程度上，
08:10
And you know, to a certain extent,
161
478319
1755
08:12
there are other people out there
who are taking care of things for us.
who are taking care of things for us.
162
480098
3638
還有其他人在替我們關心這些事，
08:15
The government has all this regulation
and bureaucracy around things
and bureaucracy around things
163
483760
3681
政府有整套相關的規範及制度，
08:19
like burying a death, for example,
164
487465
2233
例如，死亡埋葬法，
08:21
and there's people like funeral directors
165
489722
1969
還有葬儀社的人
08:23
who devote their entire
working lives to this issue.
working lives to this issue.
166
491715
2596
貢獻他們所有的生命在這些事上。
08:26
But when it comes to our cities
167
494335
1506
但一談到我們的城市，
08:27
and thinking about how
death fits in our cities,
death fits in our cities,
168
495865
3042
並想想死亡如何融入於我們的城市，
08:30
there's much less regulation
and design and thought
and design and thought
169
498931
4049
那些規範、設計及想法
比我們想像的還要少，
比我們想像的還要少，
08:35
than we might imagine.
170
503004
1316
所以，我們現在沒有在想這些事，
08:36
So we're not thinking about this,
171
504344
2214
08:38
but all of the people we imagine
are thinking about it --
are thinking about it --
172
506582
2900
而且在我們想像中，
在想這些事情的人 －
在想這些事情的人 －
基本上，他們也不會在乎的。
08:41
they're not taking care of it either.
173
509506
2045
謝謝。
08:43
Thank you.
174
511575
1158
08:44
(Applause)
175
512757
2958
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Alison Killing - ArchitectAn architect and urban designer, Alison Killing uses journalism, filmmaking and exhibitions to help people better understand the built environment.
Why you should listen
Alison Killing is an architect and urban designer working to engage people with their built environment, via design of buildings and urban strategies, film making, exhibitions and events. She explores the relationship between death and modern architecture, looking at how cities are rebuilt after disaster.
Recent projects include Death in the City (and its first iteration, Death in Venice, which was shown as an independent event during the opening week of the Venice Architecture Biennale), a touring exhibition about death and modern architecture; work with the International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies on better rebuilding after disaster and how to integrate relevant urban design tools into humanitarian response; and a study of financial models for arts and community projects temporarily using vacant buildings to help these projects become self-sustaining.
Alison Killing | Speaker | TED.com