TEDxEastEnd
Juno Mac: The laws that sex workers really want
托尼 ‧ 麥克: 性工作者真正想要的法律
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每個人都對性行業該如何立法有自己的意見（是否該合法化，禁止它，徵其稅）... 那麼性工作者自身又認為怎樣做最好呢？性工作者權利運動家，托尼 ‧ 麥克，對我們解說世界各地所使用的四大法律模式，並告訴我們她相信最能提供性工作者人身安全和自決權的模式。「如果你關心性別平等、貧困、移民或公眾健康，那麼性工作者的權利關係到你。」她說，「在你的運動裡騰個空間給我們。」 （成人主題）
Juno Mac - Sex worker and activist
Juno Mac campaigns for better working conditions for sex workers by fighting criminalization and supporting public education projects around issues relating to sex worker rights. Full bio
Juno Mac campaigns for better working conditions for sex workers by fighting criminalization and supporting public education projects around issues relating to sex worker rights. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
我要講的是性交易。
00:12
I want to talk about sex for money.
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不同於以往
00:15
I'm not like most of the people
you'll have heard speaking
you'll have heard speaking
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說過「性交易」主題的演講者，
00:18
about prostitution before.
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00:19
I'm not a police officer
or a social worker.
or a social worker.
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我並不是警員或社工，
00:23
I'm not an academic,
a journalist or a politician.
a journalist or a politician.
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也不是學術家，記者或政治家。
00:26
And as you'll probably have
picked up from Maryam's blurb,
picked up from Maryam's blurb,
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而且，也許你已聽說了，
我也不是修女。
00:29
I'm not a nun, either.
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00:30
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
00:31
Most of those people would tell you
that selling sex is degrading;
that selling sex is degrading;
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那些人，大多數會說
性交易是低級的；
性交易是低級的；
00:35
that no one would ever choose to do it;
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是沒人會選擇的；
是很危險，會讓女性
受虐待和殺害的。
受虐待和殺害的。
00:37
that it's dangerous;
women get abused and killed.
women get abused and killed.
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00:41
In fact, most of those people would say,
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而且他們會提出，
「這該有法律禁止的！」
00:42
"There should be a law against it!"
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00:44
Maybe that sounds reasonable to you.
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相信在你聽來有道理。
00:47
It sounded reasonable to me
until the closing months of 2009,
until the closing months of 2009,
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我也覺得有道理，
直到 2009 年底。
直到 2009 年底。
當時我有兩個毫無前景的
最低時薪工作。
最低時薪工作。
00:51
when I was working two dead-end,
minimum-wage jobs.
minimum-wage jobs.
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00:55
Every month my wages would just
replenish my overdraft.
replenish my overdraft.
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每個月的薪資都不夠
填補我的透支。
填補我的透支。
00:59
I was exhausted and my life
was going nowhere.
was going nowhere.
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我感到精疲力竭，
我的生活陷入僵局。
我的生活陷入僵局。
01:02
Like many others before me,
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就如其他同行一樣，
01:04
I decided sex for money
was a better option.
was a better option.
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我覺得性交易是個較好的出路。
01:07
Now don't get me wrong --
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但別誤會，
01:08
I would have loved
to have won the lottery instead.
to have won the lottery instead.
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我當然更希望能贏樂透。
01:10
But it wasn't going
to happen anytime soon,
to happen anytime soon,
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但贏的機率很低，
01:13
and my rent needed paying.
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我還有房租得支付。
01:14
So I signed up for my first
shift in a brothel.
shift in a brothel.
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所以我開始在妓院工作。
01:18
In the years that have passed,
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在之後的幾年裡，
01:20
I've had a lot of time to think.
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我有了很多時間去思考。
01:22
I've reconsidered the ideas
I once had about prostitution.
I once had about prostitution.
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我重新審視我之前
對「性交易」的見解。
對「性交易」的見解。
01:25
I've given a lot of thought to consent
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我思考關於「意願」，
01:27
and the nature of work under capitalism.
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以及資本主義下的工作本質。
我思考有關性別上的不平等
01:30
I've thought about gender inequality
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01:32
and the sexual and reproductive
labor of women.
labor of women.
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和女性在性行為和生殖上的勞動。
01:35
I've experienced exploitation
and violence at work.
and violence at work.
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工作上我曾遭遇暴力和剝削。
01:39
I've thought about what's needed
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我也想過該如何能
捍衛性工作者不受類似傷害。
01:40
to protect other sex workers
from these things.
from these things.
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也許你也想過。
01:42
Maybe you've thought about them, too.
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在這演說裡，
01:45
In this talk,
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01:46
I'll take you through
the four main legal approaches
the four main legal approaches
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我會介紹全球四大法制
應用於性工作上，
01:48
applied to sex work throughout the world,
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並解說為什麼沒用；
01:50
and explain why they don't work;
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為何禁止色情行業只是更加害
01:52
why prohibiting the sex industry
actually exacerbates every harm
actually exacerbates every harm
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性工作者成為弱者。
01:55
that sex workers are vulnerable to.
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01:58
Then I'm going tell you about what we,
as sex workers, actually want.
as sex workers, actually want.
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然後我會介紹性工作者
真正想要什麼。
真正想要什麼。
02:03
The first approach
is full criminalization.
is full criminalization.
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第一種法治是全面非法化。
有一半的國家，
02:06
Half the world,
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包括俄羅斯、南非，
以及大部分在美國的州，
以及大部分在美國的州，
02:08
including Russia, South Africa
and most of the US,
and most of the US,
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管制性工作以罪犯化
處置所有相關人士。
處置所有相關人士。
02:10
regulates sex work by criminalizing
everyone involved.
everyone involved.
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02:13
So that's seller, buyer and third parties.
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這包括了賣者、嫖者，
以及所有相關仲介。
以及所有相關仲介。
02:16
Lawmakers in these countries
apparently hope
apparently hope
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這些立法者是期望
02:18
that the fear of getting arrested
will deter people from selling sex.
will deter people from selling sex.
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能嚇止這些人進行性交易。
02:22
But if you're forced to choose
between obeying the law
between obeying the law
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但在只能選擇「遵法」
02:25
and feeding yourself or your family,
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或「自我及家人溫飽」，
02:27
you're going to do the work anyway,
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你會選擇繼續賣淫，
冒被捕的風險。
02:29
and take the risk.
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罪犯化制度是有弊端的。
02:30
Criminalization is a trap.
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在有了犯罪記錄後，
很難再找到正當工作。
很難再找到正當工作。
02:32
It's hard to get a conventional job
when you have a criminal record.
when you have a criminal record.
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一般雇主都不會聘用你。
02:36
Potential employers won't hire you.
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02:38
Assuming you still need money,
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假設你仍需要錢，
02:40
you'll stay in the more flexible,
informal economy.
informal economy.
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你會留在較有彈性的
非正式經濟裡。
非正式經濟裡。
02:43
The law forces you to keep selling sex,
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法律迫使你繼續賣性維生，
02:45
which is the exact opposite
of its intended effect.
of its intended effect.
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這違背了原來訂法的用意。
02:49
Being criminalized leaves you exposed
to mistreatment by the state itself.
to mistreatment by the state itself.
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被定罪後會使你受到
州政府的不平等待遇。
州政府的不平等待遇。
02:53
In many places you may be coerced
into paying a bribe
into paying a bribe
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在許多時候，你得行賄
02:56
or even into having sex
with a police officer
with a police officer
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甚至得跟員警性交
02:58
to avoid arrest.
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來避免拘捕。
03:00
Police and prison guards
in Cambodia, for example,
in Cambodia, for example,
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例如，在柬埔寨的
警察和獄警人員
警察和獄警人員
03:03
have been documented
subjecting sex workers
subjecting sex workers
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就有被記錄強迫性工作者
接受酷刑：
03:05
to what can only be described as torture:
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03:07
threats at gunpoint,
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如槍口下威脅、
03:08
beatings, electric shocks, rape
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毆打、電擊、強姦
03:11
and denial of food.
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和不供給食物。
03:13
Another worrying thing:
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另一個憂人的法規是：
03:15
if you're selling sex in places
like Kenya, South Africa or New York,
like Kenya, South Africa or New York,
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如果你在如肯亞、
南非或紐約的地方賣淫，
南非或紐約的地方賣淫，
03:19
a police officer can arrest you
if you're caught carrying condoms,
if you're caught carrying condoms,
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一名警員可以因你
攜帶保險套而拘捕你，
攜帶保險套而拘捕你，
03:23
because condoms can legally be used
as evidence that you're selling sex.
as evidence that you're selling sex.
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因為保險套在法律上
可以作為你賣淫的證據。
可以作為你賣淫的證據。
顯然，這會增加染愛滋病的機率。
03:27
Obviously, this increases HIV risk.
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03:29
Imagine knowing if you're busted
carrying condoms,
carrying condoms,
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想像一下，如果你知道
攜帶保險套會被拘捕，
攜帶保險套會被拘捕，
03:32
it'll be used against you.
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會用來定你的罪，
03:34
It's a pretty strong incentive
to leave them at home, right?
to leave them at home, right?
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想必會將它留在家裡，不是嗎？
03:37
Sex workers working in these places
are forced to make a tough choice
are forced to make a tough choice
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這些地方的性工作者
面臨兩難的抉擇，
面臨兩難的抉擇，
03:40
between risking arrest
or having risky sex.
or having risky sex.
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冒被捕的風險或染性病的風險。
03:44
What would you choose?
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你會怎麼選擇呢？
03:45
Would you pack condoms to go to work?
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你會攜帶保險套上班嗎？
03:48
How about if you're worried
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那如果你也擔心
03:49
the police officer would rape you
when he got you in the van?
when he got you in the van?
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警察一帶你上車就強姦你呢？
03:53
The second approach to regulating
sex work seen in these countries
sex work seen in these countries
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第二種法規，所見於這幾個國家
是局部判罪，
03:56
is partial criminalization,
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就是說買性和賣淫是合法的，
03:58
where the buying and selling
of sex are legal,
of sex are legal,
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04:00
but surrounding activities,
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但是週邊活動，
04:02
like brothel-keeping or soliciting
on the street, are banned.
on the street, are banned.
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像是妓院或街上招客都是禁止的。
04:05
Laws like these --
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這樣的法律
在英國和法國都有。
04:07
we have them in the UK and in France --
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基本上是對性工作者說，
04:08
essentially say to us sex workers,
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「嘿，我們不介意你賣淫，
04:10
"Hey, we don't mind you selling sex,
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04:12
just make sure it's done
behind closed doors
behind closed doors
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只要是在暗地裡，
單獨發生。」
04:14
and all alone."
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04:16
And brothel-keeping, by the way,
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順便說明「妓院」的定義
是指一個以上的賣淫者共事就算。
04:17
is defined as just two or more
sex workers working together.
sex workers working together.
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因為如此，我們大多都單獨工作，
04:20
Making that illegal means
that many of us work alone,
that many of us work alone,
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因此讓我們容易遭受暴力。
04:23
which obviously makes us
vulnerable to violent offenders.
vulnerable to violent offenders.
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04:26
But we're also vulnerable
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但就算我們選擇非法共事，
04:27
if we choose to break the law
by working together.
by working together.
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我們還是處於弱勢。
04:31
A couple of years ago,
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幾年前，
我一個朋友在遭受暴力後，
一直很緊張，
一直很緊張，
04:32
a friend of mine was nervous
after she was attacked at work,
after she was attacked at work,
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我就邀她先暫時在我那兒接客。
04:35
so I said that she could see her clients
from my place for a while.
from my place for a while.
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04:39
During that time,
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在那段時間裡，
04:40
we had another guy turn nasty.
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就遇到另一個惡劣的嫖客。
04:42
I told the guy to leave
or I'd call the police.
or I'd call the police.
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我叫那嫖客快離開，不然就叫警察。
04:45
And he looked at the two of us and said,
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他看著我們倆說：
04:47
"You girls can't call the cops.
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「妳們不能叫警察。
04:49
You're working together,
this place is illegal."
this place is illegal."
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妳們一起共事，這是違法的。」
04:52
He was right.
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他說的沒錯。
04:53
He eventually left
without getting physically violent,
without getting physically violent,
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在最後他終於沒施暴，離開了，
但因為這樣的法律，
04:56
but the knowledge
that we were breaking the law
that we were breaking the law
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讓那男人有機會威脅我們。
04:58
empowered that man to threaten us.
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05:00
He felt confident he'd get away with it.
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他有信心他能得逞。
05:02
The prohibition of street prostitution
also causes more harm
also causes more harm
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禁止街頭應召
所造成的傷害比其預防的還多。
05:05
than it prevents.
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首先，為躲警察，
05:06
Firstly, to avoid getting arrested,
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街頭妓女得冒些風險以避免被發現。
05:08
street workers take risks
to avoid detection,
to avoid detection,
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例如單獨工作
05:11
and that means working alone
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05:12
or in isolated locations like dark forests
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或在偏僻的地方，像黑暗的森林，
讓她們容易被攻擊的地方。
05:14
where they're vulnerable to attack.
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如果你在街上應召被抓，
05:16
If you're caught selling sex outdoors,
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你得繳罰款。
05:18
you pay a fine.
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但哪兒來的錢付款，
除了再回街上賺？
除了再回街上賺？
05:20
How do you pay that fine
without going back to the streets?
without going back to the streets?
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原本就因為缺錢
05:23
It was the need for money
that saw you in the streets
that saw you in the streets
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才會在街上招客。
05:25
in the first place.
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因此罰款越欠越多，
05:26
And so the fines stack up,
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你陷入了惡性循環，
05:28
and you're caught in a vicious cycle
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你得賣淫來繳賣淫的罰款。
05:30
of selling sex to pay the fines
you got for selling sex.
you got for selling sex.
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我要講「馬里 ‧ 波帕」，
在倫敦東部工作的事。
在倫敦東部工作的事。
05:34
Let me tell you about Mariana Popa
who worked in Redbridge, East London.
who worked in Redbridge, East London.
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05:37
The street workers on her patch
would normally wait for clients in groups
would normally wait for clients in groups
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她街上的妓女一般都是群體招客，
這樣較安全，
05:41
for safety in numbers
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05:42
and to warn each other about how
to avoid dangerous guys.
to avoid dangerous guys.
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也能警告彼此，
避免一些危險的嫖客。
避免一些危險的嫖客。
但在一次性交易掃蕩期間，
05:46
But during a police crackdown
on sex workers and their clients,
on sex workers and their clients,
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05:49
she was forced to work alone
to avoid being arrested.
to avoid being arrested.
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她被迫得單獨工作以避免被拘捕。
在 2013 年 10 月 29 日凌晨，
她被刺殺身亡。
她被刺殺身亡。
05:53
She was stabbed to death
in the early hours of October 29, 2013.
in the early hours of October 29, 2013.
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那天她工作得比平時要晚，
05:58
She had been working later than usual
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為了多賺點錢繳納賣淫的罰單。
05:59
to try to pay off a fine
she had received for soliciting.
she had received for soliciting.
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既然罪犯化處治
性工作者會傷害他們，
性工作者會傷害他們，
06:03
So if criminalizing
sex workers hurts them,
sex workers hurts them,
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那何不就只罪犯化嫖客？
06:06
why not just criminalize
the people who buy sex?
the people who buy sex?
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這就是接下來要講的
06:09
This is the aim of the third approach
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第三種法制，
06:11
I want to talk about --
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瑞典和北歐的性工作法律模式。
06:12
the Swedish or Nordic
model of sex-work law.
model of sex-work law.
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這法律的理念是
06:15
The idea behind this law
145
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1227
賣淫在本質上是有害的，
06:16
is that selling sex
is intrinsically harmful
is intrinsically harmful
146
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2463
所以借由除去市場需求，
挽救性工作者。
挽救性工作者。
06:18
and so you're, in fact, helping
sex workers by removing the option.
sex workers by removing the option.
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儘管「需求終結」法
06:22
Despite growing support
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1163
06:24
for what's often described
as the "end demand" approach,
as the "end demand" approach,
149
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2682
逐漸獲得支持，
卻沒被證實有效。
06:26
there's no evidence that it works.
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1643
賣淫在瑞典並沒比以前少。
06:28
There's just as much prostitution
in Sweden as there was before.
in Sweden as there was before.
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3339
怎麼會這樣呢？
06:31
Why might that be?
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這是因為賣淫者
06:34
It's because people selling sex
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通常沒有其它收入方式。
06:35
often don't have other options for income.
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如果你需要錢，
06:37
If you need that money,
155
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1152
06:38
the only effect that a drop
in business is going have
in business is going have
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2482
而生意卻低落時，
06:41
is to force you to lower your prices
157
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1725
你只能降價求售，
06:43
or offer more risky sexual services.
158
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2405
或提供高危險的性服務。
如果需要更多客戶，
06:45
If you need to find more clients,
159
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1573
06:47
you might seek the help of a manager.
160
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1798
你會求經理人幫助。
06:49
So you see, rather than putting a stop
161
397010
1980
所以你看，
這並未制止所謂的拉皮條，
這並未制止所謂的拉皮條，
06:51
to what's often descried as pimping,
162
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1833
這樣的法律，
06:52
a law like this actually gives oxygen
163
400871
2020
反而助長仲介濫用的機會。
06:54
to potentially abusive third parties.
164
402915
2036
06:57
To keep safe in my work,
165
405606
1813
為了安全，
我盡量不接
06:59
I try not to take bookings from someone
166
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1893
電話未顯示號碼的嫖客。
07:01
who calls me from a withheld number.
167
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1750
07:03
If it's a home or a hotel visit,
168
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1925
如果是去住家或酒店，
我會先問清楚嫖客的身份明細。
07:05
I try to get a full name and details.
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2169
若在瑞典法律模式下，
07:07
If I worked under the Swedish model,
170
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2127
客戶會因怕事而不把資料給我。
07:09
a client would be too scared
to give me that information.
to give me that information.
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我可能別無選擇
07:12
I might have no other choice
172
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1438
07:14
but to accept a booking
from a man who is untraceable
from a man who is untraceable
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2951
而得接受來路不明的嫖客預約。
如果後來他施暴，
07:17
if he later turns out to be violent.
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425013
1937
而你又需要他的錢，
07:19
If you need their money,
175
427832
1215
07:21
you need to protect
your clients from the police.
your clients from the police.
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你就不會報警。
如果你在街上應召，
07:23
If you work outdoors,
177
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1157
07:24
that means working alone
or in isolated locations,
or in isolated locations,
178
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2563
就得單獨或在偏暗地點，
就像在跑路一樣。
07:27
just as if you were criminalized yourself.
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2215
另你無時間思索就上嫖客的車，
07:29
It might mean getting into cars quicker,
180
437474
2586
07:32
less negotiating time
means snap decisions.
means snap decisions.
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2545
極少談商時間造成的倉促決定。
07:35
Is this guy dangerous or just nervous?
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這嫖客看似危險，還是想太多？
值得冒這個險嗎？
07:38
Can you afford to take the risk?
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1686
07:40
Can you afford not to?
184
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1646
你又能不冒這個險嗎？
我常聽人說：
07:43
Something I'm often hearing is,
185
451555
1489
「賣淫若合法化
07:45
"Prostitution would be fine
186
453068
1328
並加以管制就會沒事的。」
07:46
if we made it legal and regulated it."
187
454420
2381
這是「合法化」的制度，
07:48
We call that approach legalization,
188
456825
1777
在荷蘭、德國和美國的
內華達州
內華達州
07:50
and it's used by countries
like the Netherlands, Germany
like the Netherlands, Germany
189
458626
2796
07:53
and Nevada in the US.
190
461446
1592
等國家都採用。
但它並不是很好的人權模範。
07:55
But it's not a great
model for human rights.
model for human rights.
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2097
州政控管的賣淫制度，
07:57
And in state-controlled prostitution,
192
465787
1805
性交易只能在
07:59
commercial sex can only happen
193
467616
1563
08:01
in certain legally-designated
areas or venues,
areas or venues,
194
469203
2293
特定場所發生，
而且性工作者得遵守特殊規定，
08:03
and sex workers are made to comply
with special restrictions,
with special restrictions,
195
471520
2990
像是註冊工作證和強制健康檢查。
08:06
like registration
and forced health checks.
and forced health checks.
196
474534
2763
這些法規在書面上看來很棒，
08:10
Regulation sounds great on paper,
197
478014
2149
但政客們故意把性行業的法規
08:12
but politicians deliberately make
regulation around the sex industry
regulation around the sex industry
198
480187
3280
弄得很昂貴及難以遵守。
08:15
expensive and difficult to comply with.
199
483491
2667
所以造成了雙軌體系：
合法的和非法的工作。
合法的和非法的工作。
08:18
It creates a two-tiered system:
legal and illegal work.
legal and illegal work.
200
486182
4344
有時我們稱之為「後門程序定罪。」
08:22
We sometimes call it
"backdoor criminalization."
"backdoor criminalization."
201
490550
3002
有錢及關係良好的
妓院老闆都能遵守法規，
妓院老闆都能遵守法規，
08:25
Rich, well-connected brothel owners
can comply with the regulations,
can comply with the regulations,
202
493576
3421
08:29
but more marginalized people
find those hoops
find those hoops
203
497021
2173
但更多邊緣化的人
沒辦法遵守。
08:31
impossible to jump through.
204
499218
1954
即使在理論上是可能的，
08:33
And even if it's possible in principle,
205
501196
1970
獲得許可或適當的地點
是需要時間和成本的。
是需要時間和成本的。
08:35
getting a license or proper venue
takes time and costs money.
takes time and costs money.
206
503190
2985
對那些走投無路、很缺錢的人
08:38
It's not going to be an option
207
506199
1479
08:39
for someone who's desperate
and needs money tonight.
and needs money tonight.
208
507702
2454
是不可能的。
他們也許是難民或逃離家暴的人。
08:42
They might be a refugee
or fleeing domestic abuse.
or fleeing domestic abuse.
209
510180
3042
08:45
In this two-tiered system,
210
513246
1539
在這雙重體系下，
08:46
the most vulnerable people
are forced to work illegally,
are forced to work illegally,
211
514809
3237
走投無路的人只能非法工作，
08:50
so they're still exposed to all
the dangers of criminalization
the dangers of criminalization
212
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3016
所以他們仍然暴露在我之前提過的
08:53
I mentioned earlier.
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521110
1436
重重危險。
08:54
So.
214
522570
1159
所以，
08:55
It's looking like all attempts to control
215
523753
2082
似乎所有企圖控制
08:57
or prevent sex work from happening
216
525859
1682
或阻止性交易的辦法，
08:59
makes things more dangerous
for people selling sex.
for people selling sex.
217
527565
2731
只使賣淫者的處境更加危險。
09:02
Fear of law enforcement makes them
work alone in isolated locations,
work alone in isolated locations,
218
530682
3426
對執法的恐懼，使他們
在偏僻的地方單獨工作，
在偏僻的地方單獨工作，
嫖客甚至警察藉機虐待，
09:06
and allows clients and even cops
219
534132
1707
09:07
to get abusive in the knowledge
they'll get away with it.
they'll get away with it.
220
535863
2769
因為知道她們無從抵抗。
09:10
Fines and criminal records force
people to keep selling sex,
people to keep selling sex,
221
538656
3161
罰單和刑事記錄迫使
賣淫者繼續賣淫，
賣淫者繼續賣淫，
09:13
rather than enabling them to stop.
222
541841
1978
而不是停止。
09:16
Crackdowns on buyers drive sellers
to take dangerous risks
to take dangerous risks
223
544325
2777
對嫖者的鎮壓，
迫使賣淫者冒更多的風險，
迫使賣淫者冒更多的風險，
09:19
and into the arms
of potentially abusive managers.
of potentially abusive managers.
224
547126
2337
和依賴會虐待的經理人。
09:21
These laws also reinforce stigma
and hatred against sex workers.
and hatred against sex workers.
225
549487
3767
這些法律同時構成社會
對性工作者的歧視及仇恨。
對性工作者的歧視及仇恨。
兩年前，法國試用瑞典模式期間，
09:25
When France temporarily brought in
the Swedish model two years ago,
the Swedish model two years ago,
226
553278
3349
一般市民就將它視為警訊，
09:28
ordinary citizens took it as a cue
227
556651
1975
民團開始襲擊
09:30
to start carrying out vigilante attacks
228
558650
1951
街上的妓女。
09:32
against people working on the street.
229
560625
2139
瑞典的民意調查顯示，
09:34
In Sweden, opinion surveys show
230
562788
1998
自從這法規開始實行，
09:36
that significantly more people want
sex workers to be arrested now
sex workers to be arrested now
231
564810
3955
有更多的人希望性工作者被拘捕。
09:40
than before the law was brought in.
232
568789
1947
如果禁令造成了這麼多壞處，
09:43
If prohibition is this harmful,
233
571625
2122
09:45
you might ask, why it so popular?
234
573771
2182
你會問，為何還風行呢？
第一，性交易一直是
09:48
Firstly, sex work is and always
has been a survival strategy
has been a survival strategy
235
576832
2943
特殊群體的一種謀生方式：
09:51
for all kinds of unpopular
minority groups:
minority groups:
236
579799
2908
有色人種、
09:54
people of color,
237
582731
1203
移民、
09:55
migrants,
238
583958
1151
殘疾人士、
09:57
people with disabilities,
239
585133
1224
同性戀及跨性別者，
09:58
LGBTQ people,
240
586381
1195
09:59
particularly trans women.
241
587600
1697
尤其是跨性別女性。
這些特殊群體
10:01
These are the groups most heavily profiled
242
589924
2106
10:04
and punished through prohibitionist law.
243
592054
2326
最常被查獲及處份。
10:06
I don't think this is an accident.
244
594404
1976
這不是巧合。
10:08
These laws have political support
245
596404
1839
這些法律都有政治支持，
正因為它針對
10:10
precisely because they target people
246
598267
2639
選民不想看到或知道的特殊群體。
10:12
that voters don't want
to see or know about.
to see or know about.
247
600930
2582
還有甚麼原因令市民支持禁令呢？
10:16
Why else might people support prohibition?
248
604688
2388
10:19
Well, lots of people have
understandable fears about trafficking.
understandable fears about trafficking.
249
607465
3657
很多人都對人口販賣感到恐慌。
大多人認為，那些被綁架
和賣為性奴隸的外籍婦女
和賣為性奴隸的外籍婦女
10:23
Folks think that foreign women
kidnapped and sold into sexual slavery
kidnapped and sold into sexual slavery
250
611664
3847
可藉由關閉整個性行業所拯救。
10:27
can be saved by shutting
a whole industry down.
a whole industry down.
251
615535
2618
10:30
So let's talk about trafficking.
252
618555
1687
那就讓我們談談人口販賣。
許多行業裡，確實都有強迫勞動，
10:33
Forced labor does occur
in many industries,
in many industries,
253
621156
3583
特別是那些涉及
移民或弱勢團體的勞工，
移民或弱勢團體的勞工，
10:36
especially those where the workers
are migrants or otherwise vulnerable,
are migrants or otherwise vulnerable,
254
624763
3579
這確實需被關注。
10:40
and this needs to be addressed.
255
628366
1681
10:42
But it's best addressed with legislation
targeting those specific abuses,
targeting those specific abuses,
256
630535
4279
但最有效的辦法是
針對具體的項目立法，
針對具體的項目立法，
10:46
not an entire industry.
257
634838
1516
而不是取締整個行業。
10:48
When 23 undocumented Chinese migrants
258
636791
2377
在 2004 年，
當 23 名中國偷渡客
當 23 名中國偷渡客
10:51
drowned while picking cockles
in Morecambe Bay in 2004,
in Morecambe Bay in 2004,
259
639192
2917
在莫克姆灣採集海蚶時遇難，
10:54
there were no calls to outlaw
the entire seafood industry
the entire seafood industry
260
642133
2936
也並沒因此取締整個海鮮行業
10:57
to save trafficking victims.
261
645093
2061
來拯救人口販賣受害者。
10:59
The solution is clearly to give
workers more legal protections,
workers more legal protections,
262
647178
3355
解決的辦法顯然是
給勞工更多的法律保護，
給勞工更多的法律保護，
11:02
allowing them to resist abuse
263
650557
1769
讓他們不用擔心被拘捕，
11:04
and report it to authorities
without fear of arrest.
without fear of arrest.
264
652350
3040
能安心報案，抵制這些惡行。
11:07
The way the term trafficking
is thrown around
is thrown around
265
655414
2300
「人口販賣」的字眼
常暗示所有賣淫的偷渡客
都是被脅迫的。
都是被脅迫的。
11:09
implies that all undocumented
migration into prostitution is forced.
migration into prostitution is forced.
266
657738
4221
但事實上，這是
大多偷渡客所做的決定，
大多偷渡客所做的決定，
11:14
In fact, many migrants
have made a decision,
have made a decision,
267
662423
3006
出於經濟需求，
11:17
out of economic need,
268
665453
1254
11:18
to place themselves into the hands
of people smugglers.
of people smugglers.
269
666731
2783
將自己交入人口販子手上。
大多數都清楚
11:21
Many do this with the full knowledge
270
669538
1782
抵達目的地後，她們需要賣淫。
11:23
that they'll be selling sex
when they reach their destination.
when they reach their destination.
271
671344
3203
沒錯，通常
11:26
And yes, it can often be the case
272
674571
1753
這些人口販子會要求高額的偷渡費，
11:28
that these people smugglers
demand exorbitant fees,
demand exorbitant fees,
273
676348
3245
脅迫偷渡客從事他們不想做的勞動，
11:31
coerce migrants into work
they don't want to do
they don't want to do
274
679617
2904
11:34
and abuse them when they're vulnerable.
275
682545
1887
和濫用他們的脆弱。
但這並不限於賣淫，
11:36
That's true of prostitution,
276
684456
1503
11:37
but it's also true of agricultural work,
277
685983
1947
也涉及農業勞動，
11:39
hospitality work and domestic work.
278
687954
2151
招待業和幫傭等工作。
縱然，沒人願意
被迫做任何一種勞動，
被迫做任何一種勞動，
11:42
Ultimately, nobody wants
to be forced to do any kind of work,
to be forced to do any kind of work,
279
690653
3393
但這是許多偷渡客
11:46
but that's a risk many migrants
are willing to take,
are willing to take,
280
694070
2501
為了遠離家鄉所願承受的。
11:48
because of what they're leaving behind.
281
696595
1870
如果這些人能合法移民，
11:50
If people were allowed to migrate legally
282
698489
1960
他們就不必將自己
交入人口販子手中。
交入人口販子手中。
11:52
they wouldn't have to place their lives
into the hands of people smugglers.
into the hands of people smugglers.
283
700473
3537
這些問題都衍生於
11:56
The problems arise
284
704034
1151
法律禁止偷渡，
11:57
from the criminalization of migration,
285
705209
1825
就像法律禁止
11:59
just as they do from the criminalization
286
707058
1961
性工作一樣。
12:01
of sex work itself.
287
709043
1151
12:02
This is a lesson of history.
288
710218
1582
歷史告訴我們，
12:03
If you try to prohibit something
that people want or need to do,
that people want or need to do,
289
711824
3646
如果你禁止人們所想要或需要的，
12:07
whether that's drinking alcohol
or crossing borders
or crossing borders
290
715494
3575
不論是飲酒或遷移到其它國家，
12:11
or getting an abortion
291
719093
1289
或是墮胎，
12:12
or selling sex,
292
720406
1360
或是賣淫，
12:14
you create more problems than you solve.
293
722371
2000
那只會製造出更多問題。
12:16
Prohibition barely makes a difference
294
724395
1789
禁止並未改善
從事這些事情的人口數量。
12:18
to the amount of people
actually doing those things.
actually doing those things.
295
726208
2430
12:20
But it makes a huge difference
296
728672
1471
但它對於
12:22
as to whether or not
they're safe when they do them.
they're safe when they do them.
297
730177
2919
從事者的安危卻有巨大影響。
12:25
Why else might people support prohibition?
298
733591
2299
還有甚麼原因
會使人民支持禁令呢？
會使人民支持禁令呢？
12:28
As a feminist, I know
that the sex industry is a site
that the sex industry is a site
299
736787
3366
作為一個女權主義者，
我知道性市場裡的
我知道性市場裡的
12:32
of deeply entrenched social inequality.
300
740177
2880
社會地位很懸殊。
12:35
It's a fact that most buyers of sex
are men with money,
are men with money,
301
743081
3052
大部分的嫖客都是有錢男士，
12:38
and most sellers are women without.
302
746157
2291
而大部分賣淫者是窮困的女性。
12:40
You can agree with all that -- I do --
303
748472
2300
你可以接受這一切，像我一樣，
12:43
and still think prohibition
is a terrible policy.
is a terrible policy.
304
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但也同時認為禁令是個很糟的政策。
12:46
In a better, more equal world,
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在更平等的世界裡，
也許能有更少人得賣性為生，
12:48
maybe there would be far fewer
people selling sex to survive,
people selling sex to survive,
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3628
12:52
but you can't simply legislate
a better world into existence.
a better world into existence.
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但更好的社會不會因為
不斷立法就出現。
不斷立法就出現。
12:56
If someone needs to sell sex
because they're poor
because they're poor
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一個人若因貧困得賣性，
12:58
or because they're homeless
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或因無家可歸，
13:00
or because they're undocumented
and they can't find legal work,
and they can't find legal work,
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或因無身份找不到正當工作，
把這項選擇去掉並不能
改善他們的窮困，
改善他們的窮困，
13:03
taking away that option
doesn't make them any less poor
doesn't make them any less poor
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13:06
or house them
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或提供他們住所，
13:08
or change their immigration status.
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或改變他們的居留身份。
13:10
People worry that selling
sex is degrading.
sex is degrading.
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大家都覺得賣淫很低級。
13:13
Ask yourself: is it more degrading
than going hungry
than going hungry
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但試問：有比你挨餓
或看著你孩子挨餓還難堪嗎？
13:16
or seeing your children go hungry?
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我們沒聽過要禁止富人僱用保姆，
13:19
There's no call to ban rich people
from hiring nannies
from hiring nannies
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13:22
or getting manicures,
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或去修剪指甲，儘管大部分
13:23
even though most of the people
doing that labor are poor, migrant women.
doing that labor are poor, migrant women.
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從事這些工作的
都是窮困的偷渡婦女。
都是窮困的偷渡婦女。
13:27
It's the fact of poor migrant women
selling sex specifically
selling sex specifically
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是這些婦女賣淫這個事實
13:31
that has some feminists uncomfortable.
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令一些女權主義者感到不舒服。
我能理解
13:34
And I can understand
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為什麼性商業會引發強烈情感。
13:35
why the sex industry provokes
strong feelings.
strong feelings.
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人們對於性行為
13:38
People have all kinds
of complicated feelings
of complicated feelings
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有各種複雜情感。
13:41
when it comes to sex.
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但我們不能靠情感
做為制定政策的基礎，
做為制定政策的基礎，
13:43
But we can't make policy
on the basis of mere feelings,
on the basis of mere feelings,
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13:46
especially not over
the heads of the people
the heads of the people
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尤其這些政策對
那些窮困無助的人有直接的影響。
13:48
actually effected by those policies.
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816901
1738
如果我們將重點放在
禁止性工作上，
禁止性工作上，
13:50
If we get fixated on
the abolition of sex work,
the abolition of sex work,
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我們會誤把矛頭指向這種特定的
13:53
we end up worrying more
about a particular manifestation
about a particular manifestation
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性別不平等形式上，
13:55
of gender inequality,
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1413
13:57
rather than about the underlying causes.
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2322
而忽略了問題的根本原因。
人們很喜歡問，
14:00
People get really hung up on the question,
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828333
2431
「你會希望你女兒
從事這行業嗎？ 」
從事這行業嗎？ 」
14:02
"Well, would you want
your daughter doing it?"
your daughter doing it?"
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2468
這是錯誤的問題。
14:05
That's the wrong question.
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1510
14:07
Instead, imagine she is doing it.
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應該這樣想，如果她
已經從事這行了。
已經從事這行了。
14:10
How safe is she at work tonight?
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她今晚的工作安全嗎？
怎樣可以較安全？
14:13
Why isn't she safer?
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所以，我們已經審視了全面定罪、
14:16
So we've looked at full criminalization,
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2921
14:19
partial criminalization,
the Swedish or Nordic Model
the Swedish or Nordic Model
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3003
部分定罪、瑞典、北歐模式，
以及合法化制度，
14:22
and legalization,
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1190
以及這些如何造成傷害。
14:23
and how they all cause harm.
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1652
14:25
Something I never hear asked is:
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但我從沒聽人問過：
「賣淫者想要什麼？」
14:28
"What do sex workers want?"
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1670
14:31
After all, we're the ones
most affected by these laws.
most affected by these laws.
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859573
2668
畢竟，我們是最直接受影響的人。
在 2003 年，紐西蘭將
性工作「除罪化」。
性工作「除罪化」。
14:35
New Zealand decriminalized
sex work in 2003.
sex work in 2003.
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2880
14:38
It's crucial to remember
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1901
但必須知道
「除罪化」和「合法化」
是不一樣的。
是不一樣的。
14:40
that decriminalization and legalization
are not the same thing.
are not the same thing.
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868457
3451
14:43
Decriminalization means
the removal of laws
the removal of laws
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2885
「除罪化」表示廢除
原本針對性行業的懲處法律，
14:46
that punitively target the sex industry,
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874841
2043
14:48
instead treating sex work
much like any other kind of work.
much like any other kind of work.
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3422
並待性工作如一般正當工作一樣。
14:52
In New Zealand, people
can work together for safety,
can work together for safety,
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2813
在紐西蘭，賣淫者
可以共事以求安全，
可以共事以求安全，
14:55
and employers of sex workers
are accountable to the state.
are accountable to the state.
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883191
2753
性工作者的雇主也須對州政府負責。
14:57
A sex worker can refuse
to see a client at any time,
to see a client at any time,
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2683
性工作者可在任何時間拒絕客戶，
15:00
for any reason,
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1460
出於任何原因，
15:02
and 96 percent of street workers
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2474
有 96％ 的街頭妓女報告說，
15:04
report that they feel the law
protects their rights.
protects their rights.
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892657
3141
他們覺得法律保護自己的權利。
在紐西蘭也並沒因此有
15:07
New Zealand hasn't actually
seen an increase
seen an increase
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895822
2094
更多人從事性工作。
15:09
in the amount of people doing sex work,
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2111
15:12
but decriminalizing it
has made it a lot safer.
has made it a lot safer.
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900075
2624
但「除罪化」讓這工作安全許多。
紐西蘭的例子重點不在
15:15
But the lesson from New Zealand
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903274
1577
15:16
isn't just that its particular
legislation is good,
legislation is good,
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2397
它法制多好，
重點是，
15:19
but that crucially,
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907296
1151
這法規是聯同性工作者一起制成；
15:20
it was written in collaboration
with sex workers;
with sex workers;
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908471
2319
名為「紐西蘭妓女共同體」。
15:22
namely, the New Zealand
Prostitutes' Collective.
Prostitutes' Collective.
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910814
2309
15:25
When it came to making sex work safer,
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913147
2329
為了使性工作更安全，
15:27
they were ready to hear it straight
from sex workers themselves.
from sex workers themselves.
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3189
其政府直接傾聽性工作者的心聲。
15:31
Here in the UK,
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919251
1150
在英國，我是性工作團體的成員，
15:32
I'm part of sex worker-led groups
like the Sex Worker Open University
like the Sex Worker Open University
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920425
3418
如「性工作人員大學」
和「英籍妓女共同體」。
15:35
and the English Collective of Prostitutes.
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923867
2095
15:37
And we form part of a global movement
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925986
1795
我們是全球運動的一部分，
15:39
demanding decriminalization
and self-determination.
and self-determination.
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927805
3460
要求「除罪化」和自決權。
15:43
The universal symbol of our movement
is the red umbrella.
is the red umbrella.
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931653
2740
這運動的象徵是紅傘。
支持我們的是全球性機構，
15:46
We're supported in our demands
by global bodies like UNAIDS,
by global bodies like UNAIDS,
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3101
像聯合國愛滋規劃署、
15:49
the World Health Organization
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937542
1600
世界衛生組織，和國際特赦組織。
15:51
and Amnesty International.
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1386
但是，我們需要更多的盟友。
15:52
But we need more allies.
377
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1838
15:55
If you care about gender equality
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2336
如果你重視性別平等，
15:57
or poverty or migration or public health,
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2796
或貧困或移民或公眾健康，
16:00
then sex worker rights matter to you.
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2504
那麼性工作者的權利關係到你。
16:03
Make space for us in your movements.
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951355
2023
在你的運動裡騰個空間給我們。
那表示不只是傾聽我們的訴求，
16:05
That means not only listening
to sex workers when we speak
to sex workers when we speak
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3236
而同時放大我們的聲音，
16:08
but amplifying our voices.
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956662
2001
16:11
Resist those who silence us,
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959219
2121
抵制那些想沉默我們的人，
16:13
those who say that a prostitute
is either too victimized,
is either too victimized,
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3179
那些說妓女因為受害太深
身心受損到不懂什麼是對自己最好，
16:16
too damaged to know
what's best for herself,
what's best for herself,
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2646
16:19
or else too privileged
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967237
1736
或說我們享有特權
16:20
and too removed from real hardship,
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968997
2188
與現實困難脫節，
16:23
not representative of the millions
of voiceless victims.
of voiceless victims.
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3380
不能代表數以萬計
默默受害的受害者。
默默受害的受害者。
受害者與掌權者
之間的區別是虛構的。
之間的區別是虛構的。
16:27
This distinction between victim
and empowered is imaginary.
and empowered is imaginary.
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4803
這純粹是為了詆毀性工作者
16:32
It exists purely to discredit sex workers
391
980536
2453
16:35
and make it easy to ignore us.
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983013
1943
好忽視我們。
相信你們大多數得為生活工作。
16:37
No doubt many of you work for a living.
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2192
性工作也是工作。
16:40
Well, sex work is work, too.
394
988560
1721
16:42
Just like you,
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1156
和你一樣，
我們其中有喜歡這工作的，
16:44
some of us like our jobs,
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992057
1606
16:45
some of us hate them.
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993687
1401
和討厭這工作的。
16:47
Ultimately, most of us
have mixed feelings.
have mixed feelings.
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2643
畢竟，我們都對工作有複雜的情感。
16:51
But how we feel about our work
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2406
但是，我們對工作的感觀
16:54
isn't the point.
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1002566
1174
並不是重點。
16:56
And how others feel
about our work certainly isn't.
about our work certainly isn't.
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1004484
3018
別人對我們工作的感觀也不是。
重要的是能有權利安全工作，
17:00
What's important is that we have
the right to work safely
the right to work safely
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1008373
2748
而且是我們要的安全。
17:03
and on our own terms.
403
1011145
1308
17:04
Sex workers are real people.
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1012477
1875
性工作者也是人。
17:06
We've had complicated experiences
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1014823
2180
我們有複雜的經歷，
17:09
and complicated responses
to those experiences.
to those experiences.
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1017655
3055
也有複雜的應對方式。
但是，我們的要求並不複雜。
17:13
But our demands are not complicated.
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1021651
2776
你可詢問紐約的高級伴遊女郎、
17:16
You can ask expensive
escorts in New York City,
escorts in New York City,
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1024451
2797
在柬埔寨的妓院工作者、
在南非的街頭妓女，
在南非的街頭妓女，
17:19
brothel workers in Cambodia,
street workers in South Africa
street workers in South Africa
409
1027272
2938
17:22
and every girl on the roster
at my old job in Soho,
at my old job in Soho,
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1030234
3119
和我以前工作過
蘇活妓院裡的每位小姐，
蘇活妓院裡的每位小姐，
17:25
and they will all tell you the same thing.
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1033377
2340
他們都會說同樣的事。
您可以問數百萬的性工作者
17:27
You can speak to millions of sex workers
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1035741
2241
和無數的性工作組織。
17:30
and countless sex work-led organizations.
413
1038006
2457
我們要全面「除罪化」
以及勞工權利。
以及勞工權利。
17:32
We want full decriminalization
and labor rights as workers.
and labor rights as workers.
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1040487
3970
我只是台上的一個性工作者，
17:36
I'm just one sex worker
on the stage today,
on the stage today,
415
1044985
2316
17:39
but I'm bringing a message
from all over the world.
from all over the world.
416
1047325
2570
但我帶來了一個
來自世界各地的訊息。
來自世界各地的訊息。
謝謝。
17:41
Thank you.
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1168
（掌聲）
17:43
(Applause)
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1051111
6373
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Juno Mac - Sex worker and activistJuno Mac campaigns for better working conditions for sex workers by fighting criminalization and supporting public education projects around issues relating to sex worker rights.
Why you should listen
Juno Mac is a sex worker and activist with the Sex Worker Open University (SWOU), a sex worker-led collective with branches in London, Leeds and Glasgow. SWOU is focussed on advocacy, campaigning, cultural events and community support for sex workers.
Through their organizing, SWOU activists support each other through stigma and isolation, demand better working conditions by fighting criminalization and provide public education around issues relating to sex worker rights. Mac's activist work with SWOU has included delivering workshops in universities, political lobbying and campaigning, consulting with human rights organisations (including Amnesty International), appearances on radio and TV, and taking part in public panel discussions at festivals and conferences.
Mac has also curated an exhibition of sex worker art, contributed to magazines and a live storytelling night, facilitated skill-sharing and support spaces for fellow sex workers, and helped to organise SWOU's Open Conference of The Advancement of Sex Worker Rights 2015.
Juno Mac | Speaker | TED.com