TEDxUniversityofNevada
David Burkus: Why you should know how much your coworkers get paid
David Burkus: Hoekom jy behoort te weet wat jou medewerkers betaal word
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Hoeveel word jy betaal? Hoe vergelyk dit met die mense saam met wie jy werk? Jy behoort te weet en hulle ook. So sê bestuursnavorser David Burkus. In hierdie praatjie bevraagteken Burkus ons kulturele aannames oor die geheimhouding van salarisse en voer oortuigende redes aan vir hoekom dit werknemers, organisasies en die samelewing kan bevoordeel om salarisse bekend te maak.
David Burkus - Management researcher
David Burkus challenges the traditional and widely accepted principles of business management. Full bio
David Burkus challenges the traditional and widely accepted principles of business management. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:13
How much do you get paid?
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Hoeveel word jy betaal?
00:15
Don't answer that out loud.
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Moenie hardop antwoord nie.
00:17
But put a number in your head.
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Maar sit ’n syfer in jou kop.
00:20
Now: How much do you think the person
sitting next to you gets paid?
sitting next to you gets paid?
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Nou, hoeveel dink jy word
die persoon langs jou betaal?
die persoon langs jou betaal?
00:25
Again, don't answer out loud.
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Weereens, moenie hardop antwoord nie.
00:27
(Laughter)
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(Gelag)
00:29
At work, how much do you think
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By die werk, hoeveel dink jy
00:31
the person sitting in the cubicle
or the desk next to you gets paid?
or the desk next to you gets paid?
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word die persoon in die afskorting of
by die lessenaar langs jou betaal?
by die lessenaar langs jou betaal?
00:35
Do you know?
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Weet jy?
00:36
Should you know?
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Behoort jy te weet?
00:38
Notice, it's a little uncomfortable for me
to even ask you those questions.
to even ask you those questions.
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Let op, dis selfs effens ongemaklik vir my
om jou hierdie vrae te vra.
om jou hierdie vrae te vra.
00:42
But admit it -- you kind of want to know.
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Maar erken dit -- jy wil so half weet.
00:46
Most of us are uncomfortable with the idea
of broadcasting our salary.
of broadcasting our salary.
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Die meeste van ons is ongemaklik
met die idee om ons salaris uit te saai.
met die idee om ons salaris uit te saai.
00:50
We're not supposed to tell our neighbors,
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Ons moenie ons bure vertel nie
00:52
and we're definitely not supposed
to tell our office neighbors.
to tell our office neighbors.
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en ons moet beslis nie ons bure
by die kantoor vertel nie.
by die kantoor vertel nie.
00:55
The assumed reason is that if everybody
knew what everybody got paid,
knew what everybody got paid,
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Ons neem aan die rede is dat as almal weet
wat almal anders betaal word,
wat almal anders betaal word,
00:59
then all hell would break loose.
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sal die duiwel los wees.
01:01
There'd be arguments, there'd be fights,
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Daar sal stryery en bakleiery wees,
01:03
there might even be a few people who quit.
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’n paar mense sal dalk selfs bedank.
Maar sê nou geheimhouding is
eintlik die rede vir al daai getwis?
eintlik die rede vir al daai getwis?
01:05
But what if secrecy is actually
the reason for all that strife?
the reason for all that strife?
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01:09
And what would happen
if we removed that secrecy?
if we removed that secrecy?
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En wat sal gebeur as ons
daardie geheimhouding wegvat?
daardie geheimhouding wegvat?
01:12
What if openness actually increased
the sense of fairness and collaboration
the sense of fairness and collaboration
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Wat as openheid eintlik die sin van
regverdigheid en samewerking
regverdigheid en samewerking
01:16
inside a company?
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in ’n maatskapy versterk?
01:17
What would happen if we had
total pay transparency?
total pay transparency?
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Wat sou gebeur as ons totale
salaris-deursigtigheid gehad het?
salaris-deursigtigheid gehad het?
01:22
For the past several years,
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Oor die laaste paar jaar
01:23
I've been studying the corporate
and entrepreneurial leaders
and entrepreneurial leaders
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het ek dié korporatiewe en
ondernemingsleiers bestudeer
ondernemingsleiers bestudeer
wat die konvensionele wysheid oor hoe om
’n maatskapy te bestuur, bevraagteken.
’n maatskapy te bestuur, bevraagteken.
01:26
who question the conventional wisdom
about how to run a company.
about how to run a company.
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01:30
And the question of pay keeps coming up.
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En die vraag oor betaling
kom aanhoudend ter sprake.
kom aanhoudend ter sprake.
01:33
And the answers keep surprising.
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En die antwoorde verras aanhoudend.
Dit blyk dat salaris-deursigtigheid --
01:36
It turns out that pay transparency --
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om salarisse openlik
in ’n maatskapy te deel --
in ’n maatskapy te deel --
01:38
sharing salaries openly
across a company --
across a company --
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01:40
makes for a better workplace
for both the employee
for both the employee
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’n beter werkplek
vir beide die werknemer
vir beide die werknemer
en vir die organisasie maak.
01:43
and for the organization.
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As mense nie weet hoe hul salaris
met hul gelykes s’n vergelyk nie
met hul gelykes s’n vergelyk nie
01:45
When people don't know how their pay
compares to their peers',
compares to their peers',
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01:48
they're more likely to feel underpaid
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is hulle meer geneig om onderbetaal
01:50
and maybe even discriminated against.
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en dalk selfs teen gediskrimineer te voel.
01:52
Do you want to work at a place
that tolerates the idea
that tolerates the idea
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Wil jy by ’n plek werk wat toelaat
01:55
that you feel underpaid
or discriminated against?
or discriminated against?
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dat jy onderbetaal
en teen gediskrimineer voel?
en teen gediskrimineer voel?
01:58
But keeping salaries secret
does exactly that,
does exactly that,
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Maar om salarisse geheim
te hou doen presies dit,
te hou doen presies dit,
02:01
and it's a practice
as old as it is common,
as old as it is common,
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en dis ’n praktyk so oud
soos wat dit algemeen is,
soos wat dit algemeen is,
02:04
despite the fact
that in the United States,
that in the United States,
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ten spyte daarvan
dat in die VSA
dat in die VSA
02:06
the law protects an employee's right
to discuss their pay.
to discuss their pay.
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die wet ’n werknemer se reg
om sy salaris te bespreek, beskerm.
om sy salaris te bespreek, beskerm.
02:11
In one famous example from decades ago,
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In een beroemde
voorbeeld van dekades gelede
voorbeeld van dekades gelede
02:13
the management of Vanity Fair magazine
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het die bestuur van
die tydskrif Vanity Fair
die tydskrif Vanity Fair
02:16
actually circulated a memo entitled:
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sowaar ’n memo rondgestuur met die titel:
"Belet op bespreking onder werknemers
van salaris ontvang."
van salaris ontvang."
02:18
"Forbidding Discussion Among
Employees of Salary Received."
Employees of Salary Received."
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BELET op bespreking onder werknemers
van salaris ontvang.
van salaris ontvang.
02:21
"Forbidding" discussion among
employees of salary received.
employees of salary received.
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02:25
Now that memo didn't sit well
with everybody.
with everybody.
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Almal het wel nie
daai memo aanvaar nie.
daai memo aanvaar nie.
02:27
New York literary figures
Dorothy Parker,
Dorothy Parker,
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New York literêre figure Dorothy Parker,
Robert Benchley en Robert Sherwood,
02:29
Robert Benchley and Robert Sherwood,
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02:31
all writers in the Algonquin Round Table,
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almal skrywers in die
Algonquin Round Table,
Algonquin Round Table,
02:33
decided to stand up for transparency
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het vir deursigtigheid opgestaan
02:35
and showed up for work the next day
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en is die dag daarna werk toe
02:37
with their salary written on signs
hanging from their neck.
hanging from their neck.
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met hulle salarisse op bordjies geskryf
en om hulle nekke gehang.
en om hulle nekke gehang.
02:40
(Laughter)
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(Gelag)
02:42
Imagine showing up for work
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Verbeel jou jy kom by die werk
02:44
with your salary just written
across your chest for all to see.
across your chest for all to see.
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met jou salaris sommer op jou
bors geskryf vir almal om te sien.
bors geskryf vir almal om te sien.
Maar hoekom wil ’n maatskapy
salarisbesprekings ontmoedig?
salarisbesprekings ontmoedig?
02:49
But why would a company even want
to discourage salary discussions?
to discourage salary discussions?
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02:52
Why do some people go along with it,
while others revolt against it?
while others revolt against it?
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Hoekom stem party daarmee saam
terwyl ander daarteen wil opstaan?
terwyl ander daarteen wil opstaan?
02:57
It turns out that in addition
to the assumed reasons,
to the assumed reasons,
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Dit blyk dat buiten die aangenome redes
03:00
pay secrecy is actually a way
to save a lot of money.
to save a lot of money.
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salaris-geheimhouding eintlik
’n manier is om baie geld te spaar.
’n manier is om baie geld te spaar.
Sien, om salarisse geheim te hou
03:04
You see, keeping salaries secret
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03:06
leads to what economists call
"information asymmetry."
"information asymmetry."
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lei tot wat ekonome
"inligting-asimmetrie" noem.
"inligting-asimmetrie" noem.
In só ’n onderhandelingsituasie
03:09
This is a situation where,
in a negotiation,
in a negotiation,
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03:11
one party has loads more
information than the other.
information than the other.
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het een party hope meer
inligting as die ander een.
inligting as die ander een.
03:14
And in hiring or promotion
or annual raise discussions,
or annual raise discussions,
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En in besprekings oor aanstellings,
bevorderings of jaarlikse vehogings
bevorderings of jaarlikse vehogings
03:18
an employer can use that secrecy
to save a lot of money.
to save a lot of money.
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kan ’n werkgewer dié geheimhouding
gebruik om baie geld te spaar.
gebruik om baie geld te spaar.
Dink net hoeveel beter jy
vir ’n verhoging sou kon onderhandel
vir ’n verhoging sou kon onderhandel
03:22
Imagine how much better
you could negotiate for a raise
you could negotiate for a raise
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03:25
if you knew everybody's salary.
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as jy geweet het wat almal verdien.
03:29
Economists warn that information asymmetry
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Ekonome waarsku dat inligting-asimmetrie
markte kan laat skeefloop.
03:32
can cause markets to go awry.
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Iemand los ’n salarisstrokie
op die fotostaatmasjien,
op die fotostaatmasjien,
03:33
Someone leaves a pay stub on the copier,
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03:35
and suddenly everybody
is shouting at each other.
is shouting at each other.
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en skielik skree almal op mekaar.
03:38
In fact, they even warn
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Hulle waarsku selfs
03:40
that information asymmetry
can lead to a total market failure.
can lead to a total market failure.
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dat inligting-asimmetrie tot
’n totale markmislukking kan lei.
’n totale markmislukking kan lei.
03:46
And I think we're almost there.
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En ek dink ons is amper daar.
Dis hoekom:
03:48
Here's why:
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Eerstens het meeste werknemers
geen idee hoe hul salaris vergelyk nie.
geen idee hoe hul salaris vergelyk nie.
03:49
first, most employees have no idea
how their pay compares to their peers'.
how their pay compares to their peers'.
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03:54
In a 2015 survey of 70,000 employees,
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In ’n 2015-opname van 70 000 werknemers
03:58
two-thirds of everyone who is paid
at the market rate
at the market rate
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het twee derdes van almal
wat die marktarief betaal word
wat die marktarief betaal word
04:02
said that they felt they were underpaid.
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gesê hulle voel onderbetaal.
04:05
And of everybody who felt
that they were underpaid,
that they were underpaid,
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En uit almal wat gevoel het
hulle word onderbetaal,
hulle word onderbetaal,
het 60% gesê hulle
beplan om te bedank,
beplan om te bedank,
04:07
60 percent said
that they intended to quit,
that they intended to quit,
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04:10
regardless of where they were --
underpaid, overpaid
underpaid, overpaid
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ongeag of hulle onderbetaal, oorbetaal
of presies die marktarief betaal word.
04:13
or right at the market rate.
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04:16
If you were part of this survey,
what would you say?
what would you say?
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Wat sou jy in hierdie opname gesê het?
Word jy onderbetaal?
04:18
Are you underpaid?
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Wel, wag -- hoe weet jy eers?
04:19
Well, wait -- how do you even know,
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Want jy mag nie daaroor praat nie.
04:22
because you're not allowed
to talk about it?
to talk about it?
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04:24
Next, information asymmetry, pay secrecy,
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Volgende, inligting-asimmetrie,
salaris-geheimhouding,
salaris-geheimhouding,
04:28
makes it easier to ignore
the discrimination
the discrimination
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maak dit makliker om
die diskriminasie te ignoreer
die diskriminasie te ignoreer
04:31
that's already present
in the market today.
in the market today.
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wat reeds vandag
in die mark teenwoordig is.
in die mark teenwoordig is.
04:34
In a 2011 report from the Institute
for Women's Policy Research,
for Women's Policy Research,
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In ’n 2011-verslag van die
Institute for Women's Policy Research
Institute for Women's Policy Research
04:37
the gender wage gap
between men and women
between men and women
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was die salarisgaping
tussen mans en vroue 23%.
04:40
was 23 percent.
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04:42
This is where that 77 cents
on the dollar comes from.
on the dollar comes from.
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Dit is waar daardie 77 sent
op die dollar vandaan kom.
op die dollar vandaan kom.
04:45
But in the Federal Government,
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Maar in die Federale Regering,
waar salarisse op sekere
vlakke vasgestel is
vlakke vasgestel is
04:47
where salaries are pinned
to certain levels
to certain levels
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en almal weet wat dié vlakke is,
04:49
and everybody knows
what those levels are,
what those levels are,
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krimp die salarisgaping
tussen geslagte na 11%,
tussen geslagte na 11%,
04:51
the gender wage gap
shrinks to 11 percent --
shrinks to 11 percent --
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04:53
and this is before controlling
for any of the factors
for any of the factors
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en dit vóór gekontrolleer is
vir enige van die faktore
vir enige van die faktore
04:55
that economists argue over
whether or not to control for.
whether or not to control for.
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waaroor ekonome stry
om te kontrolleer of nie.
om te kontrolleer of nie.
04:59
If we really want to close
the gender wage gap,
the gender wage gap,
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As ons die salarisgaping
tussen die geslagte wil oorbrug,
tussen die geslagte wil oorbrug,
05:01
maybe we should start
by opening up the payroll.
by opening up the payroll.
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moet ons dalk begin
om die loonlys oop te maak.
om die loonlys oop te maak.
05:04
If this is what total
market failure looks like,
market failure looks like,
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As dit is hoe totale markmislukking lyk,
dan bly openheid die enigste manier
om regverdigheid te verseker.
om regverdigheid te verseker.
05:08
then openness remains
the only way to ensure fairness.
the only way to ensure fairness.
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05:12
Now, I realize that letting people
know what you make
know what you make
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Ek besef dat om mense
te laat weet wat jy verdien
te laat weet wat jy verdien
dalk ongemaklik mag voel,
05:14
might feel uncomfortable,
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maar is dit nie minder ongemaklik
05:16
but isn't it less uncomfortable
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05:18
than always wondering
if you're being discriminated against,
if you're being discriminated against,
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as om altyd te wonder of jy
teen gediskrimineer word nie of
teen gediskrimineer word nie of
05:20
or if you wife or your daughter
or your sister is being paid unfairly?
or your sister is being paid unfairly?
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of jou vrou of jou dogter of jou suster
onregverdig betaal word nie?
onregverdig betaal word nie?
05:25
Openness remains the best way
to ensure fairness,
to ensure fairness,
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Openheid bly die beste manier
om regverdigheid te verseker
om regverdigheid te verseker
05:29
and pay transparency does that.
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en salaris-deursigtigheid doen dit.
05:31
That's why entrepreneurial leaders
and corporate leaders
and corporate leaders
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Dis hoekom korporatiewe
en ondernemingsleiers
en ondernemingsleiers
05:34
have been experimenting
with sharing salaries for years.
with sharing salaries for years.
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al vir jare met dié aspek
van salarisse eksperimenteer.
van salarisse eksperimenteer.
05:37
Like Dane Atkinson.
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Soos Dane Atkinson.
Dane is 'n reeks-entrepreneur
05:38
Dane is a serial entrepreneur
who started many companies
who started many companies
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wat baie maatskapye
met geheime salarisse begin het,
met geheime salarisse begin het,
05:42
in a pay secrecy condition
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05:44
and even used that condition
to pay two equally qualified people
to pay two equally qualified people
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en hy't dit selfs gebruik om
twee mense met dieselfde kwalifikasies
twee mense met dieselfde kwalifikasies
dramaties verskillend te betaal,
05:47
dramatically different salaries,
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afhangend van hoe goed
hulle kon onderhandel.
hulle kon onderhandel.
05:49
depending on how well
they could negotiate.
they could negotiate.
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05:52
And Dane saw the strife
that happened as a result of this.
that happened as a result of this.
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En Dane het die twiste gesien
wat as gevolg hiervan ontstaan het.
wat as gevolg hiervan ontstaan het.
So toe hy sy nuutste maatskapy,
SumAll, gestig het,
SumAll, gestig het,
05:55
So when he started
his newest company, SumAll,
his newest company, SumAll,
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05:58
he committed to salary transparency
from the beginning.
from the beginning.
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het hy hom van die begin af
aan salaris-deursigtigheid gewy.
aan salaris-deursigtigheid gewy.
06:01
And the results have been amazing.
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En die resultate is merkwaardig.
06:04
And in study after study,
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En in studie op studie,
as mense weet hoe hulle betaal word
06:06
when people know
how they're being paid
how they're being paid
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en hoe dit met hul gelykes vergelyk,
06:07
and how that pay compares to their peers',
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is hulle meer geneig om hard
te werk om beter te presteer,
te werk om beter te presteer,
06:10
they're more likely to work hard
to improve their performance,
to improve their performance,
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meer geneig om betrokke te wees
en minder geneig om te bedank.
en minder geneig om te bedank.
06:12
more likely to be engaged,
and they're less likely to quit.
and they're less likely to quit.
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06:15
That's why Dane's not alone.
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Dis hoekom Dane nie alleen is nie.
06:17
From technology start-ups like Buffer,
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Van nuwe tegnologie-maatskapye soos Buffer,
06:19
to the tens of thousands
of employees at Whole Foods,
of employees at Whole Foods,
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tot die tienduisende
werknemers by Whole Foods,
werknemers by Whole Foods,
waar nie net jou salaris beskikbaar
is vir almal om te sien nie,
is vir almal om te sien nie,
06:23
where not only is your salary
available for everyone to see,
available for everyone to see,
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06:26
but the performance data
for the store and for your department
for the store and for your department
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maar die prestasiedata vir die
winkel en vir jou departement
winkel en vir jou departement
op die maatskapy
se intranet beskikbaar is,
se intranet beskikbaar is,
06:29
is available on the company intranet
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06:31
for all to see.
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vir almal om te sien.
06:33
Now, pay transparency
takes a lot of forms.
takes a lot of forms.
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Nou, salaris-deursigtigheid
neem baie vorme.
neem baie vorme.
Een grootte pas nie vir almal nie.
06:36
It's not one size fits all.
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Party maak hul salarisse
bekend vir almal om te sien.
bekend vir almal om te sien.
06:38
Some post their salaries for all to see.
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Party hou dit binne die maatskapy.
06:40
Some only keep it inside the company.
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2301
06:42
Some post the formula for calculating pay,
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Party maak die formule om
salarisse uit te werk bekend.
salarisse uit te werk bekend.
06:45
and others post the pay levels
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Ander maak die salarisvlakke bekend
en heg almal aan hulle vlak.
06:47
and affix everybody to that level.
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So jy hoef nie bordjies te maak
06:49
So you don't have to make signs
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vir al jou werknemers
om in die kantoor te dra nie.
om in die kantoor te dra nie.
06:51
for all of your employees
to wear around the office.
to wear around the office.
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06:53
And you don't have to be
the only one wearing a sign
the only one wearing a sign
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En jy hoef nie die enigste een
te wees wat ’n bordjie dra
te wees wat ’n bordjie dra
wat jy by die huis gemaak het nie.
06:56
that you made at home.
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06:58
But we can all take greater steps
towards pay transparency.
towards pay transparency.
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Maar almal kan groter stappe
na deursigtigheid neem.
na deursigtigheid neem.
07:02
For those of you that have the authority
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Vir dié van julle wat die gesag het
om vooruit te beweeg na deursigtigheid:
07:04
to move forward towards transparency:
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1794
07:06
it's time to move forward.
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dis tyd om vooruit te beweeg.
07:07
And for those of you
that don't have that authority:
that don't have that authority:
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En vir dié van julle wat
nie die gesag het nie:
nie die gesag het nie:
07:10
it's time to stand up for your right to.
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dis tyd om op te kom vir jou reg daartoe.
07:13
So how much do you get paid?
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So hoeveel word jy betaal?
07:16
And how does that compare
to the people you work with?
to the people you work with?
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En hoe vergelyk dit met die
mense saam met wie jy werk?
mense saam met wie jy werk?
07:19
You should know.
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Jy behoort te weet.
07:21
And so should they.
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En hulle ook.
07:23
Thank you.
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Dankie.
07:25
(Applause)
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(Applous)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
David Burkus - Management researcherDavid Burkus challenges the traditional and widely accepted principles of business management.
Why you should listen
David Burkus is an author, podcaster and associate professor of management at Oral Roberts University. His latest book, Under New Management, challenges traditional principles of business management and argues that many of them are outdated, outmoded or simply don't work -- and reveals what does. He is also the author of The Myths of Creativity: The Truth About How Innovative Companies and People Generate Great Ideas.
Burkus is a regular contributor to Harvard Business Review and Inc. magazine. His work has been featured in Fast Company, the Financial Times, Bloomberg BusinessWeek and "CBS This Morning." He's also the host of the award-winning podcast Radio Free Leader.
When he's not speaking or writing, Burkus is in the classroom. At Oral Roberts University, he teaches courses on organizational behavior, creativity and innovation, and strategic leadership. He serves on the advisory board of Fuse Corps, a nonprofit dedicated to making transformative and replicable change in local government.
Burkus lives in Tulsa with his wife and their two boys.
David Burkus | Speaker | TED.com