TEDxPeachtree
Frans de Waal: Moral behavior in animals
Frans de Waal: Moralsk adfærd hos dyr
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Emapti, samarbejde, retfærdighed og gensidighed -- at bekymre sig om andres velbefindende virker som et meget menneskelig træk. Men Frans de Waal viser nogle overraskende videoer af adfærdstests på primater og andre pattedyr, der viser hvor mange af disse moralske træk vi alle deler.
Frans de Waal - Primatologist
Frans de Waal studies primate social behavior -- how they fight and reconcile, share and cooperate. Full bio
Frans de Waal studies primate social behavior -- how they fight and reconcile, share and cooperate. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:15
I was born in Den Bosch,
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Jeg blev født i Den Bosch,
00:17
where the painter Hieronymus Bosch named himself after.
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som maleren Hieronymus Bosch opkaldte sig selv efter.
00:20
And so I've always been very fond of this painter
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Så jeg har altid været meget glad for denne maler
00:22
who lived and worked in the 15th century.
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der levede og arbejdede i det 15. århundrede.
00:25
And what is interesting about him in relation to morality
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Hvad der er interessant omkring ham, i forhold til moral
00:27
is that he lived at a time where religion's influence was waning,
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er at han levede i en tid hvor den religiøse indflydelse var aftagende,
00:30
and he was sort of wondering, I think,
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og han undrede sig, tror jeg,
00:32
what would happen with society
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over hvad der ville ske med samfundet
00:34
if there was no religion or if there was less religion.
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hvis der ikke var nogen religion eller hvis der var mindre af det.
00:37
And so he painted this famous painting, "The Garden of Earthly Delights,"
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Så han malede sit berømte maleri, "The Garden of Earthly Delights,"
00:40
which some have interpreted
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som nogle har fortolket
00:42
as being humanity before the Fall,
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som værende menneskeheden før syndefaldet,
00:44
or being humanity without any Fall at all.
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eller som menneskeheden uden noget syndefald overhovedet.
00:47
And so it makes you wonder,
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Så det får en til at tænke over,
00:49
what would happen if we hadn't tasted the fruit of knowledge, so to speak,
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hvad der ville ske, hvis vi ikke havde smagt videnskabens frugt, så at sige,
00:52
and what kind of morality would we have?
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og hvilken slags moral ville vi have?
00:55
Much later, as a student,
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Meget senere, som studerende,
00:57
I went to a very different garden,
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tog jeg til en helt anden have,
00:59
a zoological garden in Arnhem
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en zoologisk have i Arnhem
01:02
where we keep chimpanzees.
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hvor vi har chimpanser.
01:04
This is me at an early age with a baby chimpanzee.
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Det her er mig i en tidlig alder, sammen med en babychimpanse.
01:06
(Laughter)
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(Latter)
01:09
And I discovered there
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Og der fandt jeg ud af,
01:11
that the chimpanzees are very power hungry and wrote a book about it.
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at chimpanser er meget magtsyge, og skrev en bog om det.
01:14
And at that time the focus in a lot of animal research
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På det tidspunkt var meget af dyreforskning
01:17
was on aggression and competition.
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fokuseret omkring aggression og konkurrence.
01:19
I painted a whole picture of the animal kingdom,
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Jeg gav et dybdegående billede af dyreriget,
01:21
and humanity included,
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inklusiv af menneskeriget,
01:23
was that deep down we are competitors,
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og inderst inde er vi alle konkurrenter,
01:25
we are aggressive,
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vi er aggressive,
01:27
we're all out for our own profit basically.
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vi er faktisk alle egen maksimerende.
01:30
This is the launch of my book.
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Det her er udgivelsen af min bog.
01:32
I'm not sure how well the chimpanzees read it,
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Jeg er ikke sikker på hvor godt chimpanserne læste den,
01:34
but they surely seemed interested in the book.
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men de virkede bestemt interesserede i bogen.
01:39
Now in the process
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I processen med at
01:41
of doing all this work on power and dominance
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gøre alt dette arbejde med magt og dominans
01:43
and aggression and so on,
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og aggression og så videre,
01:45
I discovered that chimpanzees reconcile after fights.
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fandt jeg ud af, at chimpanser forsoner sig efter opgør.
01:48
And so what you see here is two males who have had a fight.
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Det vi ser her er to hanner der har haft en fejde.
01:51
They ended up in a tree, and one of them holds out a hand to the other.
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De endte oppe i et træ, og en af dem rækker hånden ud mod den anden,
01:54
And about a second after I took the picture, they came together in the fork of the tree
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og cirka et sekund efter jeg tog dette billede, nærmede de sig hinanden i træet,
01:57
and they kissed and embraced each other.
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og de kyssede og krammede hinanden.
01:59
Now this is very interesting
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Det er rigtig interessant,
02:01
because at the time everything was about competition and aggression,
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da det på daværende tidspunkt handlede om konkurrence og aggression,
02:04
and so it wouldn't make any sense.
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så det ville ikke give nogen mening.
02:06
The only thing that matters is that you win or that you lose.
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Det eneste der betyder noget, er om man vinder eller taber.
02:08
But why would you reconcile after a fight?
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Men hvorfor ville man forsone efter en konflikt?
02:10
That doesn't make any sense.
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Det giver ikke nogen mening.
02:12
This is the way bonobos do it. Bonobos do everything with sex.
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Det her er måden bonoboerne gør det på. Bonoboer gør alt med sex.
02:15
And so they also reconcile with sex.
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Så de forsoner også med sex.
02:17
But the principle is exactly the same.
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Men princippet er præcis det samme.
02:19
The principle is that you have
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Princippet er at man har
02:21
a valuable relationship
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et værdifuldt forhold
02:23
that is damaged by conflict,
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der er skadet af konflikt,
02:25
so you need to do something about it.
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så det skal man gøre noget ved.
02:27
So my whole picture of the animal kingdom,
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Så hele mit billede af dyreriget,
02:29
and including humans also,
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og også af menneskeriget,
02:31
started to change at that time.
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begyndte at ændre sig på det tidspunkt.
02:33
So we have this image
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Så vi har det her billede
02:35
in political science, economics, the humanities,
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i statskundskab, økonomi, humaniora,
02:37
philosophy for that matter,
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filosofi for den sags skyld,
02:39
that man is a wolf to man.
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at mennesket er en ulv mod mennesket.
02:41
And so deep down our nature's actually nasty.
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Så inderst inde er vores natur egentlig grim.
02:44
I think it's a very unfair image for the wolf.
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Jeg synes det er et meget unfair billede overfor ulven.
02:47
The wolf is, after all,
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Ulven er, trods alt,
02:49
a very cooperative animal.
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et meget samarbejdsvilligt dyr.
02:51
And that's why many of you have a dog at home,
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Og det er derfor der er mange af jer der har en hund derhjemme,
02:53
which has all these characteristics also.
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som også har alle disse karakteristika.
02:55
And it's really unfair to humanity,
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Og det er egentlig unfair overfor menneskeheden,
02:57
because humanity is actually much more cooperative and empathic
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fordi menneskeheden er egentlig meget mere samarbejdsvillig og empatisk,
03:01
than given credit for.
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end den får ære for.
03:03
So I started getting interested in those issues
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Så jeg blev interesseret i disse emner
03:05
and studying that in other animals.
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og at studere det i andre dyr.
03:07
So these are the pillars of morality.
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Her er de moralske grundpiller.
03:09
If you ask anyone, "What is morality based on?"
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Hvis man spørger hvem som helst "Hvad bygger moral på?",
03:13
these are the two factors that always come out.
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så vil disse to faktorer altid blive nævnt.
03:15
One is reciprocity,
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Den ene er gensidighed,
03:17
and associated with it is a sense of justice and a sense of fairness.
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og sammen med det en følelse af retfærdighed og rimelighed.
03:20
And the other one is empathy and compassion.
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Og den anden er empati og medfølelse.
03:22
And human morality is more than this,
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Og menneskelig moral er mere end det,
03:25
but if you would remove these two pillars,
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men hvis man fjerner disse to grundpiller,
03:27
there would be not much remaining I think.
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ville der ikke være meget tilbage, tror jeg.
03:29
And so they're absolutely essential.
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Så de er absolut essentielle.
03:31
So let me give you a few examples here.
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Lad mig give jer et par eksempler.
03:33
This is a very old video from the Yerkes Primate Center
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Det her er en meget gammel video fra Yerkes Primate Center
03:35
where they train chimpanzees to cooperate.
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hvor de træner chimpanser til at samarbejde.
03:38
So this is already about a hundred years ago
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Det er allerede omkring hundrede år siden,
03:41
that we were doing experiments on cooperation.
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at vi lavede eksperimenter omkring samarbejde.
03:44
What you have here is two young chimpanzees who have a box,
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Her er der to unge chimpanser der har en kasse,
03:47
and the box is too heavy for one chimp to pull in.
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og kassen er for tung til at én chimpanse kan trække den hen til sig.
03:50
And of course, there's food on the box.
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Og selvfølgelig er der mad oven på kassen.
03:52
Otherwise they wouldn't be pulling so hard.
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Ellers ville de ikke trække så ivrigt.
03:54
And so they're bringing in the box.
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Så de trækker kassen hen til sig.
03:56
And you can see that they're synchronized.
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Og som man kan se, er de synkroniseret.
03:58
You can see that they work together, they pull at the same moment.
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Man kan se at de arbejder sammen, at de trækker på samme tid.
04:01
It's already a big advance over many other animals
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Det er allerede et stort spring i forhold til mange andre dyr,
04:04
who wouldn't be able to do that.
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der ikke ville være i stand til at gøre det.
04:06
And now you're going to get a more interesting picture,
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Nu vil I se et mere interessant klip,
04:08
because now one of the two chimps has been fed.
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da den ene af de to chimpanser nu er blevet fodret.
04:11
So one of the two is not really interested
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Så én af dem er egentlig ikke rigtig interesseret
04:13
in the task anymore.
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i opgaven mere.
04:16
(Laughter)
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(Latter)
04:23
(Laughter)
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(Latter)
04:34
(Laughter)
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(Latter)
04:50
Now look at what happens at the very end of this.
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Prøv at se hvad der sker her til sidst.
04:56
(Laughter)
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(Latter)
05:07
He takes basically everything.
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Han tager faktisk det hele.
05:09
(Laughter)
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(Latter)
05:12
So there are two interesting parts about this.
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Der er to pointer omkring det her.
05:14
One is that the chimp on the right
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Den ene er, at chimpansen til højre
05:16
has a full understanding he needs the partner --
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har komplet forståelse for at han har brug for partneren --
05:18
so a full understanding of the need for cooperation.
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så en fuld forståelse for brugen af samarbejde.
05:20
The second one is that the partner is willing to work
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Den anden pointe er, at partneren er villig til at arbejde
05:23
even though he's not interested in the food.
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selvom han ikke er interesseret i maden.
05:25
Why would that be? Well that probably has to do with reciprocity.
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Hvordan kan det være? Jamen det har sandsynligvis at gøre med gensidighed.
05:28
There's actually a lot of evidence in primates and other animals
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Der er faktisk meget bevis for, at primater og andre dyr
05:30
that they return favors.
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gengælder tjenester.
05:32
So he will get a return favor
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Så han vil få en gengældt tjeneste
05:34
at some point in the future.
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en gang i fremtiden.
05:36
And so that's how this all operates.
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Så det er hvordan det hænger sammen.
05:38
We do the same task with elephants.
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Vi laver den samme opgave med nogle elefanter.
05:40
Now with elephants, it's very dangerous to work with elephants.
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Men med elefanter, det er meget farligt at arbejde med elefanter.
05:43
Another problem with elephants
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Et andet problem med elefanter
05:45
is that you cannot make an apparatus
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er at man ikke kan fremstille et apparat
05:47
that is too heavy for a single elephant.
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der er for tungt til én elefant.
05:49
Now you can probably make it,
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Man kan sikkert godt fremstille det,
05:51
but it's going to be a pretty flimsy apparatus I think.
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men det bliver nok et temmelig uhåndterlig apparat tror jeg.
05:53
And so what we did in that case --
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Så det vi gjorde i det tilfælde --
05:55
we do these studies in Thailand for Josh Plotnik --
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vi laver disse studier i Thailand for Josh Plotnik --
05:58
is we have an apparatus around which there is a rope, a single rope.
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er vi har et apparat som der er et reb omkring, et enkelt reb.
06:01
And if you pull on this side of the rope,
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Og hvis man trækker i denne side af rebet,
06:03
the rope disappears on the other side.
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så forsvinder rebet på den anden side.
06:05
So two elephants need to pick it up at exactly the same time and pull.
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Så to elefanter skal samle rebet op på præcis samme tidspunkt og trække.
06:08
Otherwise nothing is going to happen
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Ellers sker der ikke noget
06:10
and the rope disappears.
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og rebet forsvinder.
06:12
And the first tape you're going to see
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I det første klip I skal se
06:14
is two elephants who are released together
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bliver to elefanter der bliver sluppet løs samtidig
06:16
arrive at the apparatus.
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og ankommer til apparatet.
06:18
The apparatus is on the left with food on it.
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Apparatet er til venstre med mad oven på.
06:21
And so they come together, they arrive together,
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Så de kommer sammen, de ankommer sammen,
06:24
they pick it up together and they pull together.
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de samler det op sammen, og de trækker sammen.
06:26
So it's actually fairly simple for them.
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Så det er faktisk ret simpelt for dem.
06:30
There they are.
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Der er de.
06:39
And so that's how they bring it in.
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Så det er sådan de trækker den ind.
06:41
But now we're going to make it more difficult.
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Men nu gør vi det sværere.
06:43
Because the whole purpose of this experiment
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Fordi hele formålet med dette eksperiment
06:45
is to see how well they understand cooperation.
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er at finde ud af hvor godt de forstår samarbejde.
06:47
Do they understand that as well as the chimps, for example?
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Forstår de det for eksempel lige så godt som chimpanserne?
06:50
And so what we do in the next step
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Så det vi gør i næste trin
06:52
is we release one elephant before the other,
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er at vi slipper den ene elefant løs før den anden,
06:54
and that elephant needs to be smart enough
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og den elefant skal være smart nok
06:56
to stay there and wait and not pull at the rope --
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til at stå der og vente, og ikke trække i rebet --
06:58
because if he pulls at the rope, it disappears and the whole test is over.
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fordi hvis han trækker i rebet, så forsvinder det og forsøget er ovre.
07:01
Now this elephant does something illegal
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Nu gør denne elefant noget der ikke er tilladt
07:03
that we did not teach it.
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som vi ikke lærte den.
07:05
But it shows the understanding that he has,
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Men det viser den forståelse han har,
07:07
because he puts his big foot on the rope,
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fordi han planter sin store fod på rebet,
07:10
stands on the rope and waits there for the other,
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står på rebet og venter på den anden,
07:12
and then the other is going to do all the work for him.
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og så vil den anden gøre alt arbejdet for ham.
07:15
So it's what we call freeloading.
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Så det er hvad vi kalder nasseri.
07:18
(Laughter)
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(Latter)
07:20
But it shows the intelligence that the elephants have.
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Men det viser hvilken intelligens elefanter har.
07:23
They develop several of these alternative techniques
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De udvikler adskillige af disse alternative teknikker
07:26
that we did not approve of necessarily.
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som vi ikke nødvendigvis synes godt om.
07:29
So the other elephant is now coming
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Så nu kommer den anden elefant
07:34
and is going to pull it in.
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og trækker den ind.
07:53
Now look at the other. The other doesn't forget to eat, of course.
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Se den anden. Den anden glemmer selvfølgelig ikke at spise.
07:56
(Laughter)
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(Latter)
08:00
This was the cooperation, reciprocity part.
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Dette var samarbejde, gensidigheds delen.
08:02
Now something on empathy.
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Nu noget omkring empati.
08:04
Empathy is my main topic at the moment of research.
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Empati er mit hovedemne for tiden.
08:06
And empathy has sort of two qualities.
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Og empati har egentlig to sider.
08:08
One is the understanding part of it. This is just a regular definition:
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Den ene er forståelsen af det. Det her er bare en almindelig definition:
08:11
the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.
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evnen til at forstå og dele en andens følelser.
08:13
And the emotional part.
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Og den følelsesmæssige del.
08:15
And so empathy has basically two channels.
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Så empati har egentlig to dele.
08:17
One is the body channel.
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Den ene er kropsdelen.
08:19
If you talk with a sad person,
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Hvis man snakker med en trist person,
08:21
you're going to adopt a sad expression and a sad posture,
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så vil man tillægge sig en trist kropsholdning,
08:24
and before you know it you feel sad.
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og inden længe føler man sig trist.
08:26
And that's sort of the body channel of emotional empathy,
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Og det er kropsdelen i følelsesmæssig empati,
08:29
which many animals have.
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som mange dyr har.
08:31
Your average dog has that also.
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Den gennemsnitlige hund gør det også.
08:33
That's actually why people keep mammals in the home
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Det er faktisk derfor mennesker har pattedyr hjemme
08:35
and not turtles or snakes or something like that
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og ikke skildpadder eller slanger eller noget i den stil
08:37
who don't have that kind of empathy.
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der ikke har den slags empati.
08:39
And then there's a cognitive channel,
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Og så er der den kognitive del,
08:41
which is more that you can take the perspective of somebody else.
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som betyder at man kan forstå en andens synspunkt.
08:43
And that's more limited.
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Og det er mere begrænset.
08:45
There's few animals -- I think elephants and apes can do that kind of thing --
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Der er få dyr -- jeg mener at elefanter og aber kan den slags --
08:47
but there are very few animals who can do that.
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men der er meget få dyr der kan den slags.
08:50
So synchronization,
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Så synkronisering,
08:52
which is part of that whole empathy mechanism
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som er en del af hele empatimekanismen,
08:54
is a very old one in the animal kingdom.
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er meget gammelt i dyreriget.
08:56
And in humans, of course, we can study that
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Og ved mennesker kan vi selvfølgelig studere det
08:58
with yawn contagion.
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via smittende gaben.
09:00
Humans yawn when others yawn.
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Mennesker gaber når andre gaber.
09:02
And it's related to empathy.
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Og det er relateret til empati.
09:04
It activates the same areas in the brain.
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Det aktiverer de samme områder i hjernen.
09:06
Also, we know that people who have a lot of yawn contagion
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Vi ved også, at mennesker der bliver smittet meget af gab,
09:08
are highly empathic.
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er meget empatiske.
09:10
People who have problems with empathy, such as autistic children,
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Mennesker der har problemer med empati, såsom autistiske børn,
09:12
they don't have yawn contagion.
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de bliver ikke smittet af gab.
09:14
So it is connected.
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Så det er sammenhængende.
09:16
And we study that in our chimpanzees by presenting them with an animated head.
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Og det studerer vi ved vores chimpanser ved at vise dem et animeret hoved.
09:19
So that's what you see on the upper-left,
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Det er hvad man kan se øverst til venstre,
09:21
an animated head that yawns.
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et animeret hoved der gaber.
09:23
And there's a chimpanzee watching,
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Og der er en chimpanse der kigger,
09:25
an actual real chimpanzee watching a computer screen
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en rigtig chimpanse der kigger på en computer skærm,
09:28
on which we play these animations.
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der viser disse animationer.
09:35
(Laughter)
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(Latter)
09:37
So yawn contagion
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Så smittende gaben
09:39
that you're probably all familiar with --
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som I sikkert allesammen er bekendt med --
09:41
and maybe you're going to start yawning soon now --
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og måske begynder I snart at gabe --
09:44
is something that we share with other animals.
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er noget vi deler med andre dyr.
09:47
And that's related to that whole body channel of synchronization
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Og det er forbundet med hele kropsdelen af synkronisering
09:50
that underlies empathy
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der hører under empati,
09:52
and that is universal in the mammals basically.
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og det er dybest set universelt hos pattedyr.
09:55
Now we also study more complex expressions. This is consolation.
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We studerer også mere komplekse udtryk. Det her er trøst.
09:58
This is a male chimpanzee who has lost a fight and he's screaming,
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Det her er en han chimpanse der har tabt en dyst og han skriger.
10:01
and a juvenile comes over and puts an arm around him
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og en ung kommer og lægger en arm om ham,
10:03
and calms him down.
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og trøster ham.
10:05
That's consolation. It's very similar to human consolation.
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Det er trøst. Det er meget lig menneskelig trøst.
10:08
And consolation behavior,
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Og trøsteadfærd
10:11
it's empathy driven.
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er drevet af empati.
10:13
Actually the way to study empathy in human children
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Faktisk er måden at studere empati hos menneske børn
10:16
is to instruct a family member to act distressed,
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at instruere et familiemedlem i at handle fortvivlet,
10:18
and then they see what young children do.
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og så ser man hvad barnet gør.
10:20
And so it is related to empathy,
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Så det er relateret til empati,
10:22
and that's the kind of expressions we look at.
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og det er den slags udtryk vi kigger på.
10:25
We also recently published an experiment you may have heard about.
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Vi offentliggjorde for nylig et eksperiment I måske har hørt om.
10:28
It's on altruism and chimpanzees
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Det omhandler altruisme og chimpanser
10:31
where the question is, do chimpanzees care
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hvor spørgsmålet er, om chimpanser bekymrer sig
10:33
about the welfare of somebody else?
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om andres velfærd.
10:35
And for decades it had been assumed
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Og i årtier er det blevet antaget
10:37
that only humans can do that,
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at det kun er mennesker der kan det,
10:39
that only humans worry about the welfare of somebody else.
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at det kun er mennesker der bekymrer sig om andres velfærd.
10:42
Now we did a very simple experiment.
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Vi gennemførte et meget simpelt eksperiment.
10:44
We do that on chimpanzees that live in Lawrenceville,
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Vi udførte det på chimpanser der bor i Lawrenceville,
10:47
in the field station of Yerkes.
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i en feltstation til Yerkes.
10:49
And so that's how they live.
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Så det er sådan de bor.
10:51
And we call them into a room and do experiments with them.
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Og vi kalder dem ind i et rum og laver nogle forsøg med dem.
10:54
In this case, we put two chimpanzees side-by-side.
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I denne case sætter vi to chimpanser ved siden af hinanden.
10:56
and one has a bucket full of tokens, and the tokens have different meanings.
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Én af dem har en kasse med poletter, og poletterne har forskellig betydning.
10:59
One kind of token feeds only the partner who chooses,
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Én slags polet giver kun mad til den der vælger,
11:02
the other one feeds both of them.
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den anden giver mad til begge.
11:04
So this is a study we did with Vicky Horner.
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Det her er et studie vi gennemførte med Vicky Horner.
11:08
And here you have the two color tokens.
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Og her er de to farver poletter.
11:10
So they have a whole bucket full of them.
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Så de har en hel spand fuld af dem.
11:12
And they have to pick one of the two colors.
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Og de skal vælge én af de to farver.
11:15
You will see how that goes.
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I kan se hvordan det foregår.
11:18
So if this chimp makes the selfish choice,
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Så hvis denne chimpanse tager det selviske valg,
11:21
which is the red token in this case,
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der i dette tilfælde er den røde polet,
11:24
he needs to give it to us.
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skal han give den til os.
11:26
So we pick it up, we put it on a table where there's two food rewards,
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Så vi samler den op, vi sætter den på bordet hvor der er to madbelønninger,
11:29
but in this case only the one on the right gets food.
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men i dette tilfælde er det kun den til højre der får mad.
11:32
The one on the left walks away because she knows already.
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Den til venstre går væk, fordi hun ved det allerede,
11:34
that this is not a good test for her.
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at det her ikke er en god test for hende.
11:37
Then the next one is the pro-social token.
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Den næste er den prosociale polet.
11:39
So the one who makes the choices -- that's the interesting part here --
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Så den der træffer valgene - det er det interessante her --
11:42
for the one who makes the choices,
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for den der træffer valgene,
11:44
it doesn't really matter.
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gør det ikke nogen forskel.
11:46
So she gives us now a pro-social token and both chimps get fed.
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Så hun giver os en prosocial polet og begge chimpanser får mad.
11:49
So the one who makes the choices always gets a reward.
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Så den der træffer valget får altid en belønning.
11:52
So it doesn't matter whatsoever.
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Så det gør ikke nogen forskel overhovedet.
11:54
And she should actually be choosing blindly.
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Så hun skulle egentlig vælge i blinde.
11:56
But what we find
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Men det vi ser
11:58
is that they prefer the pro-social token.
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er at de foretrækker den prosociale polet.
12:00
So this is the 50 percent line that's the random expectation.
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Det her er 50 procent linjen der er den forventningen om det tilfældige.
12:03
And especially if the partner draws attention to itself, they choose more.
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Og især hvis partneren tiltrækker sig opmærksomhed, vælger de mere.
12:06
And if the partner puts pressure on them --
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Og hvis partneren presser dem --
12:09
so if the partner starts spitting water and intimidating them --
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så hvis partneren begynder at spytte vand og true dem --
12:12
then the choices go down.
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så går valget ned.
12:15
It's as if they're saying,
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Det er som om de siger
12:17
"If you're not behaving, I'm not going to be pro-social today."
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"Hvis du ikke opfører dig ordentligt, så vil jeg ikke være prosocial i dag."
12:19
And this is what happens without a partner,
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Og det her er hvad der sker uden en partner,
12:21
when there's no partner sitting there.
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når der ikke sidder en partner.
12:23
And so we found that the chimpanzees do care
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Så vi fandt at chimpanserne bekymrer sig
12:25
about the well-being of somebody else --
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om andres velbefindende --
12:27
especially, these are other members of their own group.
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især, de her er andre medlemmer af deres egen gruppe.
12:30
So the final experiment that I want to mention to you
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Det sidste eksperiment som jeg vil nævne for jer,
12:33
is our fairness study.
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er vores studie i retfærdighed.
12:35
And so this became a very famous study.
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Og det her blev et meget berømt forsøg.
12:38
And there's now many more,
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Og nu er der mange flere,
12:40
because after we did this about 10 years ago,
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da vi efter at have gjort det her for 10 år siden,
12:42
it became very well known.
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blev det meget kendt.
12:44
And we did that originally with capuchin monkeys.
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Og vi gjorde det oprindeligt med kapucineraber.
12:46
And I'm going to show you the first experiment that we did.
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Så nu viser jeg jer det første eksperiment vi lavede.
12:49
It has now been done with dogs and with birds
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Det er også blevet lavet med hunde og fugle
12:52
and with chimpanzees.
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og med chimpanser.
12:54
But with Sarah Brosnan we started out with capuchin monkeys.
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Men sammen med Sarah Brosnan startede vi med kapucineraber.
12:58
So what we did
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Så det vi gjorde
13:00
is we put two capuchin monkeys side-by-side.
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var, at vi satte to kapucineraber ved siden af hinanden.
13:02
Again, these animals, they live in a group, they know each other.
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Igen, de her dyr, de lever i en gruppe, de kender hinanden.
13:04
We take them out of the group, put them in a test chamber.
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Vi tager dem ud af gruppen, sætter dem i et test rum.
13:07
And there's a very simple task
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Og der er en meget simpel opgave
13:09
that they need to do.
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som de skal lave.
13:11
And if you give both of them cucumber for the task,
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Og hvis man giver dem begge agurk til opgaven,
13:14
the two monkeys side-by-side,
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de to aber ved siden af hinanden,
13:16
they're perfectly willing to do this 25 times in a row.
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er de begge helt villige til at gøre det 25 gange i træk.
13:18
So cucumber, even though it's only really water in my opinion,
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Så agurk, selvom det efter min mening bare er vand,
13:22
but cucumber is perfectly fine for them.
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men agurk er helt fint for dem.
13:25
Now if you give the partner grapes --
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Så hvis man giver partneren vindruer --
13:28
the food preferences of my capuchin monkeys
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madpræferencerne hos mine kapucineraber
13:30
correspond exactly with the prices in the supermarket --
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svarer præcis til priserne i supermarkedet --
13:33
and so if you give them grapes -- it's a far better food --
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så hvis man giver dem vindruer -- en klart bedre føde --
13:36
then you create inequity between them.
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så skaber man en ulighed mellem dem.
13:39
So that's the experiment we did.
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Så det er det eksperiment vi lavede.
13:41
Recently we videotaped it with new monkeys who'd never done the task,
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Vi filmede det for nyligt med nye aber der ikke havde lavet opgaven før,
13:44
thinking that maybe they would have a stronger reaction,
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da vi tænkte at de måske ville vise en stærkere reaktion,
13:46
and that turned out to be right.
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og det viste sig at være rigtigt.
13:48
The one on the left is the monkey who gets cucumber.
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Den til venstre er aben der får agurk.
13:50
The one on the right is the one who gets grapes.
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Den til højre er aben der får vindruer.
13:53
The one who gets cucumber,
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Den der får agurk,
13:55
note that the first piece of cucumber is perfectly fine.
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læg mærke til at det første stykke agurk er helt fin.
13:57
The first piece she eats.
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Det første stykke spiser hun.
14:00
Then she sees the other one getting grape, and you will see what happens.
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Så ser hun at den anden får vindruer, og så ser I hvad der sker.
14:03
So she gives a rock to us. That's the task.
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Så hun giver os stenen. Det er opgaven.
14:06
And we give her a piece of cucumber and she eats it.
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Og vi giver hende et stykke agurk og hun spiser det.
14:09
The other one needs to give a rock to us.
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Den anden skal give os en sten.
14:12
And that's what she does.
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Og det er hvad hun gør.
14:15
And she gets a grape and she eats it.
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Og hun får en vindrue og spiser den.
14:18
The other one sees that.
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Det ser den anden.
14:20
She gives a rock to us now,
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Hun giver os stenen nu,
14:22
gets, again, cucumber.
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får, igen, agurk.
14:27
(Laughter)
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(Latter)
14:42
She tests a rock now against the wall.
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Hun tester en sten mod væggen.
14:45
She needs to give it to us.
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Hun skal give den til os.
14:47
And she gets cucumber again.
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Og hun får agurk igen.
14:52
(Laughter)
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(Latter)
14:58
So this is basically the Wall Street protest that you see here.
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Så det her er i bund og grund "Wall Street protest" I ser her.
15:02
(Laughter)
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(Latter)
15:05
(Applause)
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(Bifald)
15:08
Let me tell you --
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Lad mig fortælle jer --
15:10
I still have two minutes left, let me tell you a funny story about this.
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Jeg har stadig to minuter til overs, lad mig fortælle jer en sjov histore omkring dette.
15:12
This study became very famous
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Dette forsøg blev meget berømt
15:14
and we got a lot of comments,
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og vi fik en masse kommentarer,
15:16
especially anthropologists, economists,
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især fra antropologer, økonomer,
15:18
philosophers.
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filosoffer.
15:20
They didn't like this at all.
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De kunne ikke lide det overhovedet.
15:22
Because they had decided in their minds, I believe,
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Fordi de havde bestemt sig for, tror jeg,
15:25
that fairness is a very complex issue
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at retfærdighed er et meget kompleks emne
15:27
and that animals cannot have it.
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og at dyr ikke kan have det.
15:29
And so one philosopher even wrote us
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Og en filosof skrev endda til os
15:31
that it was impossible that monkeys had a sense of fairness
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at det var umuligt at aber skulle have en retfærdighedssans
15:34
because fairness was invented during the French Revolution.
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fordi retfærdighed blev opfundet under den Franske Revolution.
15:37
(Laughter)
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(Latter)
15:39
Now another one wrote a whole chapter
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En anden skrev et helt kapitel
15:42
saying that he would believe it had something to do with fairness
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at han ville tro på det havde noget med retfærdighed at gøre
15:46
if the one who got grapes would refuse the grapes.
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hvis den der fik vindruer, ville afvise vindruerne.
15:48
Now the funny thing is that Sarah Brosnan,
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Det sjove er, at Sarah Brosnan,
15:50
who's been doing this with chimpanzees,
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der har gjort det med chimpanser,
15:52
had a couple of combinations of chimpanzees
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havde et par kombinationer af chimpanser
15:54
where, indeed, the one who would get the grape would refuse the grape
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hvor, minsandten, den ene der ville få vindruer ville afvise vindruerne
15:57
until the other guy also got a grape.
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indtil den anden også fik vindruer.
15:59
So we're getting very close to the human sense of fairness.
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Så vi er tæt på den menneskelige følelse af retfærdighed.
16:02
And I think philosophers need to rethink their philosophy for awhile.
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Og jeg synes filosoffer skal genoverveje deres filosofi.
16:06
So let me summarize.
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Så lad mig opsummere.
16:08
I believe there's an evolved morality.
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Jeg tror på, at der er en udviklet moral.
16:10
I think morality is much more than what I've been talking about,
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Jeg synes moral er meget mere end det jeg har snakket om,
16:12
but it would be impossible without these ingredients
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men det ville være umuligt uden disse ingredienser
16:15
that we find in other primates,
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som vi finder i andre primater,
16:17
which are empathy and consolation,
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som er empati og trøst,
16:19
pro-social tendencies and reciprocity and a sense of fairness.
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sociale tendenser og gensidighed og en retfærdighedssans.
16:22
And so we work on these particular issues
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Så vi arbejder på disse specifikke emner
16:25
to see if we can create a morality from the bottom up, so to speak,
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for at se om vi kan skabe en moral fra bunden og op, så at sige,
16:28
without necessarily God and religion involved,
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uden at Gud og religion nødvendigvis er involveret,
16:30
and to see how we can get to an evolved morality.
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og se hvordan vi kan finde frem til en udviklet moral.
16:33
And I thank you for your attention.
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Og jeg takker Jer for jeres opmærksomhed.
16:36
(Applause)
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(Bifald)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Frans de Waal - PrimatologistFrans de Waal studies primate social behavior -- how they fight and reconcile, share and cooperate.
Why you should listen
Dutch/American biologist and ethologist Frans de Waal draws parallels between primate and human behavior, from peacemaking and morality to culture. Looking at human society through the lens of animal behavior, de Waal's first book, Chimpanzee Politics (1982), compares the schmoozing and scheming of chimpanzees involved in power struggles with that of human politicians. Named one of the 100 Most Influential People Today by Time Magazine, de Waal has written hundreds of peer-reviewed scientific articles, and his popular books have been translated in over 20 languages. He is a professor in Emory University's psychology department and Director of the Living Links Center at the Yerkes National Primate Research Center, in Atlanta. His next book is on animal and human emotions, entitled Mama's Last Hug (Norton, 2019).
Frans de Waal | Speaker | TED.com