TEDxPeachtree
Frans de Waal: Moral behavior in animals
Frans de Waal: Moralno vedenje pri živalih
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Empatija, sodelovanje, poštenost in vzajemnost -- skrb za dobrobit tistih okoli sebe deluje zelo človeška lastnost. Toda Frans de Waal predstavi presenetljive posnetke vedenjskih poskusov s primati in drugimi sesalci, ki pokažejo, koliko moralnih značilnosti si pravzaprav z njimi delimo.
Frans de Waal - Primatologist
Frans de Waal studies primate social behavior -- how they fight and reconcile, share and cooperate. Full bio
Frans de Waal studies primate social behavior -- how they fight and reconcile, share and cooperate. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:15
I was born in Den Bosch,
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Rodil sem se v mestu Den Bosch
00:17
where the painter Hieronymus Bosch named himself after.
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po katerem se je poimenoval slikar Hieronymus Bosch.
00:20
And so I've always been very fond of this painter
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Zato mi je bil ta slikar, ki je živel
00:22
who lived and worked in the 15th century.
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in deloval v 15. stoletju, zelo pri srcu.
00:25
And what is interesting about him in relation to morality
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Pri njem mi je v povezavi z moralnostjo še posebej zanimivo,
00:27
is that he lived at a time where religion's influence was waning,
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da je živel v času pojemanja vpliva vere
00:30
and he was sort of wondering, I think,
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in se je najbrž spraševal,
00:32
what would happen with society
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kaj bi se z družbo zgodilo,
00:34
if there was no religion or if there was less religion.
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če religije ne bi bilo ali če bi je bilo manj.
00:37
And so he painted this famous painting, "The Garden of Earthly Delights,"
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Zato je naslikal znameniti "Vrt zemeljskih naslad,"
00:40
which some have interpreted
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v katerem so nekateri videli
00:42
as being humanity before the Fall,
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človeštvo pred Propadom
00:44
or being humanity without any Fall at all.
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ali človeštvo brez vsakršnega Propada.
00:47
And so it makes you wonder,
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Zato se včasih zamisliš,
00:49
what would happen if we hadn't tasted the fruit of knowledge, so to speak,
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kaj bi se zgodilo, če tako rekoč ne bi nikoli okusili sadeža znanja,
00:52
and what kind of morality would we have?
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in kakšno moralo bi potem imeli?
00:55
Much later, as a student,
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Mnogo kasneje sem kot študent
00:57
I went to a very different garden,
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obiskal zelo drugačen vrt.
00:59
a zoological garden in Arnhem
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Bil je živalski vrt v Arnhemu,
01:02
where we keep chimpanzees.
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kjer skrbimo za šimpanze.
01:04
This is me at an early age with a baby chimpanzee.
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Tukaj me lahko vidite v mladih letih skupaj z majhnim šimpanzom.
01:06
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
01:09
And I discovered there
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Tam sem ugotovil,
01:11
that the chimpanzees are very power hungry and wrote a book about it.
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da so šimpanzi zelo oblastiželjni in sem o tem tudi napisal knjigo.
01:14
And at that time the focus in a lot of animal research
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Takrat so se raziskave o živalih močno osredotočale
01:17
was on aggression and competition.
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na agresijo in tekmovalnost.
01:19
I painted a whole picture of the animal kingdom,
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Celotna slika, ki sem si jo narisal o živalskem kraljestvu,
01:21
and humanity included,
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vključno s človeštvom,
01:23
was that deep down we are competitors,
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je prikazovala, da smo globoko v sebi tekmeci.
01:25
we are aggressive,
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Agresivni smo,
01:27
we're all out for our own profit basically.
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vedno iščemo priložnost, da bi se okoristili.
01:30
This is the launch of my book.
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To je izdaja moje knjige.
01:32
I'm not sure how well the chimpanzees read it,
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Nisem prepričan, kako je šimpanzom šlo pri branju,
01:34
but they surely seemed interested in the book.
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vendar izgleda, da jim je bila knjiga zelo zanimiva.
01:39
Now in the process
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Med raziskovanjem
01:41
of doing all this work on power and dominance
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moči, dominance
01:43
and aggression and so on,
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in agresije in tako dalje,
01:45
I discovered that chimpanzees reconcile after fights.
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sem opazil, da se šimpanzi po prepirih pobotajo.
01:48
And so what you see here is two males who have had a fight.
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Tukaj lahko vidite dva samca po prepiru.
01:51
They ended up in a tree, and one of them holds out a hand to the other.
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Končala sta na drevesu in eden od njiju ima k drugemu iztegnjeno roko.
01:54
And about a second after I took the picture, they came together in the fork of the tree
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Takoj zatem, ko sem naredil posnetek, sta se srečala pri razcepu drevesa,
01:57
and they kissed and embraced each other.
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nakar sta se poljubila in objela.
01:59
Now this is very interesting
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To je zelo zanimivo,
02:01
because at the time everything was about competition and aggression,
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ker se je takrat vse vrtelo okrog tekmovalnosti in agresije
02:04
and so it wouldn't make any sense.
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in kaj takšnega ni bilo preveč smiselno.
02:06
The only thing that matters is that you win or that you lose.
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Pomembno je le ali zmagaš ali zgubiš.
02:08
But why would you reconcile after a fight?
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Toda zakaj bi se po prepiru zopet spoprijateljil?
02:10
That doesn't make any sense.
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To je popolnoma sprto z logiko.
02:12
This is the way bonobos do it. Bonobos do everything with sex.
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Tako to počnejo bonobi, ki vse dosežejo prek seksa.
02:15
And so they also reconcile with sex.
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Zato se tudi spoprijateljijo s seksom.
02:17
But the principle is exactly the same.
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Toda princip ostane enak.
02:19
The principle is that you have
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Po principu imamo
02:21
a valuable relationship
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pomembno razmerje,
02:23
that is damaged by conflict,
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ki ga poškoduje konflikt,
02:25
so you need to do something about it.
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in moraš glede tega nekaj storiti.
02:27
So my whole picture of the animal kingdom,
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Takrat se je začela moja celotna slika
02:29
and including humans also,
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živalskega kraljestva in človeštva
02:31
started to change at that time.
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začela spreminjati.
02:33
So we have this image
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Tako imamo znotraj
02:35
in political science, economics, the humanities,
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politologije, ekonomije, družboslovja
02:37
philosophy for that matter,
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in filozofije to idejo,
02:39
that man is a wolf to man.
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da je človek človeku volk.
02:41
And so deep down our nature's actually nasty.
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Zato je globoko v nas naša narava prav nizkotna.
02:44
I think it's a very unfair image for the wolf.
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Sem mnenja, da je to precej nepošteno do volka.
02:47
The wolf is, after all,
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Volk je navsezadnje zelo
02:49
a very cooperative animal.
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sodelovalna žival.
02:51
And that's why many of you have a dog at home,
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Zato imate tudi mnogi doma psa,
02:53
which has all these characteristics also.
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ki ima zelo podobne lastnosti.
02:55
And it's really unfair to humanity,
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Je pa tudi zelo nepošteno do človeštva,
02:57
because humanity is actually much more cooperative and empathic
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ker je človeštvo veliko bolj sodelovalno in sočutno
03:01
than given credit for.
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kot želimo priznati.
03:03
So I started getting interested in those issues
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Zato sem se začel zanimati za te zadeve
03:05
and studying that in other animals.
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in sem jih začel raziskovati pri drugih živalih.
03:07
So these are the pillars of morality.
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To sta stebra morale.
03:09
If you ask anyone, "What is morality based on?"
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Če bi nekoga vprašali: "Na čem temelji morala?",
03:13
these are the two factors that always come out.
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bi vedno na koncu prišli do teh dveh dejavnikov.
03:15
One is reciprocity,
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Eden je vzajemnost,
03:17
and associated with it is a sense of justice and a sense of fairness.
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ki ga povezujemo z občutkom za pravico in občutkom za pravičnost.
03:20
And the other one is empathy and compassion.
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Drugi dejavnik pa je empatija in sočutje.
03:22
And human morality is more than this,
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Človeška moralnost je veliko več kot to.
03:25
but if you would remove these two pillars,
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Toda če bi ta dva stebra odstranili,
03:27
there would be not much remaining I think.
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se mi zdi, da ne bi ostalo prav veliko.
03:29
And so they're absolutely essential.
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Zato sta bistvenega pomena.
03:31
So let me give you a few examples here.
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Naj vam dam par primerov.
03:33
This is a very old video from the Yerkes Primate Center
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To je zelo star posnetek raziskovalnega centra Yerkes Primate Center,
03:35
where they train chimpanzees to cooperate.
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kjer učijo šimpanze sodelovanja.
03:38
So this is already about a hundred years ago
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Torej smo že pred skoraj sto leti
03:41
that we were doing experiments on cooperation.
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izvajali poskuse o sodelovanju.
03:44
What you have here is two young chimpanzees who have a box,
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Tukaj imamo dva mlada šimpanza in škatlo,
03:47
and the box is too heavy for one chimp to pull in.
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ki je pretežka, da bi jo lahko k sebi potegnil en sam šimpanz.
03:50
And of course, there's food on the box.
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Seveda je na škatli hrana,
03:52
Otherwise they wouldn't be pulling so hard.
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drugače se ne bi tako zelo trudila.
03:54
And so they're bringing in the box.
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In tako vlečeta škatlo k sebi.
03:56
And you can see that they're synchronized.
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Kot lahko vidite, sta sinhronizirana.
03:58
You can see that they work together, they pull at the same moment.
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Vidite lahko tudi, da sodelujeta in vlečeta istočasno.
04:01
It's already a big advance over many other animals
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Že to je velik nepredek pred drugimi živalskimi vrstami,
04:04
who wouldn't be able to do that.
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ki tega niso zmožne.
04:06
And now you're going to get a more interesting picture,
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Zdaj pa boste videli nekaj še bolj zanimivega,
04:08
because now one of the two chimps has been fed.
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ker je eden od šimpanzov že bil nahranjen.
04:11
So one of the two is not really interested
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Enemu od njiju zato naloga
04:13
in the task anymore.
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ni več tako pomembna.
04:16
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
04:23
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
04:34
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
04:50
Now look at what happens at the very end of this.
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Poglejte, kaj se zgodi na koncu.
04:56
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
05:07
He takes basically everything.
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Pojé enostavno vse.
05:09
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
05:12
So there are two interesting parts about this.
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Ta prizor lahko razdelimo na dva dela.
05:14
One is that the chimp on the right
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Prvi je ta, da se šimpanz na desni
05:16
has a full understanding he needs the partner --
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popolnoma zaveda, da potrebuje partnerja --
05:18
so a full understanding of the need for cooperation.
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torej zavedanje potrebe po sodelovanju.
05:20
The second one is that the partner is willing to work
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Drugi del pa je, da je partner pripravljen pomagati,
05:23
even though he's not interested in the food.
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čeprav ga hrana ne zanima.
05:25
Why would that be? Well that probably has to do with reciprocity.
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Zakaj je to tako? Najverjetneje gre za vzajemnost.
05:28
There's actually a lot of evidence in primates and other animals
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Imamo že veliko dokazov, da si primati in ostale živali
05:30
that they return favors.
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vračajo usluge.
05:32
So he will get a return favor
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Torej bo njemu usluga
05:34
at some point in the future.
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nekoč v prihodnosti tudi povrnjena.
05:36
And so that's how this all operates.
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In tako vse to deluje.
05:38
We do the same task with elephants.
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Enako nalogo smo dali slonom.
05:40
Now with elephants, it's very dangerous to work with elephants.
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Delo s sloni je lahko zelo nevarno.
05:43
Another problem with elephants
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Drug problem pri slonih pa je,
05:45
is that you cannot make an apparatus
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da ni možno narediti naprave,
05:47
that is too heavy for a single elephant.
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ki bi bila za enega slona pretežka.
05:49
Now you can probably make it,
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No, najbrž jo je možno narediti,
05:51
but it's going to be a pretty flimsy apparatus I think.
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ampak se mi zdi, da naprava ne bi bila zelo stabilna.
05:53
And so what we did in that case --
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Zato smo v tem primeru --
05:55
we do these studies in Thailand for Josh Plotnik --
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te študije opravljamo na Tajskem z Joshem Plotnikom --
05:58
is we have an apparatus around which there is a rope, a single rope.
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sestavili smo napravo, okrog katere je navita ena sama vrv.
06:01
And if you pull on this side of the rope,
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Če vrv potegneš na enem koncu,
06:03
the rope disappears on the other side.
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bo konec na drugi strani izginil.
06:05
So two elephants need to pick it up at exactly the same time and pull.
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Zato jo morata slona zagrabiti ob istem času in jo potegniti k sebi skupaj.
06:08
Otherwise nothing is going to happen
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Drugače se ne bi zgodilo nič
06:10
and the rope disappears.
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in bi vrv izginila.
06:12
And the first tape you're going to see
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Na prvem posnetku boste videli dva slona,
06:14
is two elephants who are released together
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ki smo ju spustili istočasno
06:16
arrive at the apparatus.
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in se približata napravi.
06:18
The apparatus is on the left with food on it.
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Naprava je na levi strani in na njej je hrana.
06:21
And so they come together, they arrive together,
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Tako odideta skupaj, skupaj prispeta,
06:24
they pick it up together and they pull together.
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skupaj vrv dvigneta in jo skupaj potegneta.
06:26
So it's actually fairly simple for them.
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To je zanju v bistvu precej enostavno.
06:30
There they are.
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Tukaj ju imamo.
06:39
And so that's how they bring it in.
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In tako jo potegneta k sebi.
06:41
But now we're going to make it more difficult.
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Zdaj pa bomo dvignili zahtevnost.
06:43
Because the whole purpose of this experiment
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Celoten namen poskusa je odkriti,
06:45
is to see how well they understand cooperation.
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do kolikšne mere sta sposobna razumevati sodelovanje.
06:47
Do they understand that as well as the chimps, for example?
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Torej, ali sta na primer zmožna istega razumevanja kot šimpanzi?
06:50
And so what we do in the next step
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Zato smo v naslednjem koraku
06:52
is we release one elephant before the other,
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spustili prvo enega in potem drugega slona.
06:54
and that elephant needs to be smart enough
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Prvi slon mora biti dovolj pameten,
06:56
to stay there and wait and not pull at the rope --
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da se bo ustavil, počakal in ne bo potegnil vrvi --
06:58
because if he pulls at the rope, it disappears and the whole test is over.
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če vrv potegne, bo ta izginila in se test s tem konča.
07:01
Now this elephant does something illegal
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Toda ta slon krši pravila igre,
07:03
that we did not teach it.
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nekaj kar ga nismo naučili.
07:05
But it shows the understanding that he has,
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Vendar pokaže, da se je nečesa le naučil,
07:07
because he puts his big foot on the rope,
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saj s svojo veliko nogo stopi na vrv,
07:10
stands on the rope and waits there for the other,
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na njej stoji in počaka na drugega slona.
07:12
and then the other is going to do all the work for him.
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Tako bo drugi slon opravil vso delo namesto njega.
07:15
So it's what we call freeloading.
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Tako rekoč živi na njegov račun.
07:18
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
07:20
But it shows the intelligence that the elephants have.
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Vendar vseeno pokaže, kako inteligentni so sloni.
07:23
They develop several of these alternative techniques
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Zmožni so razviti te dodatne spretnosti,
07:26
that we did not approve of necessarily.
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ki jih načeloma nismo dovolili.
07:29
So the other elephant is now coming
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Zdaj že prihaja drugi slon
07:34
and is going to pull it in.
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in bo sedaj napravo potegnil k sebi.
07:53
Now look at the other. The other doesn't forget to eat, of course.
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Zdaj pa poglejte še drugega. Seveda ne pozabi na hrano.
07:56
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
08:00
This was the cooperation, reciprocity part.
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To je bilo sodelovanje, vzajemnostni del.
08:02
Now something on empathy.
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Zdaj pa še empatija.
08:04
Empathy is my main topic at the moment of research.
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Empatija je trenutno v raziskavah glavna tema
08:06
And empathy has sort of two qualities.
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in ima na nek način dve lastnosti.
08:08
One is the understanding part of it. This is just a regular definition:
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Ena je razumevanje. To je zgolj osnovna definicija:
08:11
the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.
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sposobnost razumevanja in deljenja čustev z drugimi.
08:13
And the emotional part.
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Imamo pa še čustveni del.
08:15
And so empathy has basically two channels.
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Empatija tako deluje na dveh kanalih.
08:17
One is the body channel.
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Eden je kanal telesa.
08:19
If you talk with a sad person,
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Če se pogovarjamo z žalostno osebo,
08:21
you're going to adopt a sad expression and a sad posture,
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bomo prevzeli žalosten izraz in žalostno držo
08:24
and before you know it you feel sad.
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in se bomo slej kot prej tudi počutili žalostno.
08:26
And that's sort of the body channel of emotional empathy,
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To je nekakšen telesni kanal čustvene empatije,
08:29
which many animals have.
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ki jo imajo mnoge živali.
08:31
Your average dog has that also.
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Najdemo jo tudi pri psih.
08:33
That's actually why people keep mammals in the home
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Zato imajo ljudje doma rajši sesalce namesto
08:35
and not turtles or snakes or something like that
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želv, kač ali česa podobnega,
08:37
who don't have that kind of empathy.
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ki niso zmožni tovrstne empatije.
08:39
And then there's a cognitive channel,
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Drugi kanal pa je kognitivni,
08:41
which is more that you can take the perspective of somebody else.
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zaradi katerega smo zmožni prevzeti perspektivo nekoga drugega.
08:43
And that's more limited.
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To je zelo omejeno.
08:45
There's few animals -- I think elephants and apes can do that kind of thing --
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Zelo malo živali -- mislim, da so tega sposobni sloni in človeku podobne opice --
08:47
but there are very few animals who can do that.
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toda zelo malo živali je tega sposobnih.
08:50
So synchronization,
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Torej sinhronizacija,
08:52
which is part of that whole empathy mechanism
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ki je del celotnega mehanizma empatije,
08:54
is a very old one in the animal kingdom.
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je v živalskem kraljsetvu prisotna že zelo dolgo.
08:56
And in humans, of course, we can study that
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Pri ljudeh lahko to proučujemo
08:58
with yawn contagion.
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z nalezovanjem zehanja.
09:00
Humans yawn when others yawn.
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Človek zazeha, ko zazehajo drugi,
09:02
And it's related to empathy.
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kar je povezano z empatijo.
09:04
It activates the same areas in the brain.
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Signali prihajajo iz istih delov možganov.
09:06
Also, we know that people who have a lot of yawn contagion
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Vemo tudi, da so ljudje, ki se zelo hitro nalezejo zehanja,
09:08
are highly empathic.
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zelo empatični.
09:10
People who have problems with empathy, such as autistic children,
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Ljudje, ki imajo z empatijo težave, na primer avtistični otroci,
09:12
they don't have yawn contagion.
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se zehanja ne nalezejo.
09:14
So it is connected.
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Vse je torej povezano.
09:16
And we study that in our chimpanzees by presenting them with an animated head.
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Pri naših šimpanzih to proučujemo tako, da jim predvajamo animirano glavo.
09:19
So that's what you see on the upper-left,
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Torej v zgornjem levem kotu lahko vidite
09:21
an animated head that yawns.
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animirano glavo, ki zeha.
09:23
And there's a chimpanzee watching,
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Animacijo pa gleda šimpanz,
09:25
an actual real chimpanzee watching a computer screen
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pravi živi šimpanz si ogleduje animacije
09:28
on which we play these animations.
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na računalniškem zaslonu.
09:35
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
09:37
So yawn contagion
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Nalezljivost zehanja,
09:39
that you're probably all familiar with --
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ki jo najbrž vsi poznate --
09:41
and maybe you're going to start yawning soon now --
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mogoče boste tudi vi začeli kmalu zehati --
09:44
is something that we share with other animals.
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je nekaj, kar si delimo z ostalimi živalmi.
09:47
And that's related to that whole body channel of synchronization
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Povezana je tudi s celotnim telesnim kanalom sinhronizacije,
09:50
that underlies empathy
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ki tvori osnovo empatije
09:52
and that is universal in the mammals basically.
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in je praktično prisoten pri vseh sesalcih.
09:55
Now we also study more complex expressions. This is consolation.
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Proučujemo tudi nekoliko bolj zapletene izraze. To je tolažba.
09:58
This is a male chimpanzee who has lost a fight and he's screaming,
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Ta samec je izgubil v boju in kriči.
10:01
and a juvenile comes over and puts an arm around him
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Do njega stopi mlajši šimpanz in ovije okrog njega roko,
10:03
and calms him down.
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da bi ga pomiril.
10:05
That's consolation. It's very similar to human consolation.
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To je tolažba in je zelo podobna človeški tolažbi.
10:08
And consolation behavior,
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Tolažba je uravnavana
10:11
it's empathy driven.
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s strani empatije.
10:13
Actually the way to study empathy in human children
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Pri človeških otrocih empatijo proučujemo
10:16
is to instruct a family member to act distressed,
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s pomočjo družinskih članov, ki hlinijo žalost
10:18
and then they see what young children do.
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in potem opazujemo odziv otrok.
10:20
And so it is related to empathy,
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Zato je povezana z empatijo
10:22
and that's the kind of expressions we look at.
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in takšne odzive proučujemo.
10:25
We also recently published an experiment you may have heard about.
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Pred kratkim smo objavili poskus, za katerega ste morda že slišali.
10:28
It's on altruism and chimpanzees
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Bil je poskus o nesebičnosti in šimpanzih
10:31
where the question is, do chimpanzees care
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pri kateremu smo si postavili vprašanje, ali je
10:33
about the welfare of somebody else?
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šimpanzom mar za dobrobit drugih?
10:35
And for decades it had been assumed
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Več desetletij smo predvidevali,
10:37
that only humans can do that,
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da so tega zmožni samo ljudje,
10:39
that only humans worry about the welfare of somebody else.
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da bi se samo človek bal za dobrobit nekoga drugega.
10:42
Now we did a very simple experiment.
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Opravili smo zelo enostaven poskus.
10:44
We do that on chimpanzees that live in Lawrenceville,
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Izvedli smo ga na šimpanzih v Lawrencevillu,
10:47
in the field station of Yerkes.
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na Yerkesovi terenski postaji.
10:49
And so that's how they live.
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Tako živijo.
10:51
And we call them into a room and do experiments with them.
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Pokličemo jih v sobo in z njimi opravljamo poskuse.
10:54
In this case, we put two chimpanzees side-by-side.
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Tukaj smo imeli dva šimpanza enega ob drugem.
10:56
and one has a bucket full of tokens, and the tokens have different meanings.
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Eden od njiju ima vedro polno žetonov, ki imajo različne pomene.
10:59
One kind of token feeds only the partner who chooses,
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Prva vrsta žetonov nahrani samo sodelujočega, ki izbira,
11:02
the other one feeds both of them.
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druga vrsta nahrani oba.
11:04
So this is a study we did with Vicky Horner.
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To je raziskava, ki smo jo opravili z Vicky Horner.
11:08
And here you have the two color tokens.
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To so različno obarvani žetoni.
11:10
So they have a whole bucket full of them.
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Imata jih polno vedro.
11:12
And they have to pick one of the two colors.
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Izbrati morata eno od obeh barv.
11:15
You will see how that goes.
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Videli boste, kako to poteka.
11:18
So if this chimp makes the selfish choice,
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Ta šimpanz torej sprejme sebično odločitev,
11:21
which is the red token in this case,
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v tem primeru je to rdeč žeton,
11:24
he needs to give it to us.
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ki ga mora dati nam.
11:26
So we pick it up, we put it on a table where there's two food rewards,
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Vzamemo ga, in ga položimo na mizo, kjer sta dve nagradi v obliki hrane,
11:29
but in this case only the one on the right gets food.
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vendar v tem primeru dobi hrano samo tisti na desni.
11:32
The one on the left walks away because she knows already.
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Tista na levi odide, ker že ve,
11:34
that this is not a good test for her.
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da ta poskus ni njej v prid.
11:37
Then the next one is the pro-social token.
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Naslednji bo prosocialen žeton.
11:39
So the one who makes the choices -- that's the interesting part here --
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Torej tisti, ki izbira -- in zdaj prihaja zanimiv del --
11:42
for the one who makes the choices,
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za tistega, ki izbira,
11:44
it doesn't really matter.
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je v bistvu vseeno.
11:46
So she gives us now a pro-social token and both chimps get fed.
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Zdaj nam da prosocialen žeton in zato oba šimpanza dobita hrano.
11:49
So the one who makes the choices always gets a reward.
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Tisti, ki izbira, je torej vedno nagrajen.
11:52
So it doesn't matter whatsoever.
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Zato je povsem vseeno.
11:54
And she should actually be choosing blindly.
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Lahko bi izbirala na slepo.
11:56
But what we find
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Vendar smo odkrili,
11:58
is that they prefer the pro-social token.
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da raje izberejo prosocialne žetone.
12:00
So this is the 50 percent line that's the random expectation.
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Črta na 50 odstotkih označuje pričakovane naključne izbire.
12:03
And especially if the partner draws attention to itself, they choose more.
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Če bo drugi sodelujoči nase pritegoval pozornost, bo izbir več.
12:06
And if the partner puts pressure on them --
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Če pa sodelujoči pritiska na drugega --
12:09
so if the partner starts spitting water and intimidating them --
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če bo na primer pljuval vodo ali začel z ustrahovanjem --
12:12
then the choices go down.
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v tem primeru izbire upadejo.
12:15
It's as if they're saying,
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Kot bi želel povedati:
12:17
"If you're not behaving, I'm not going to be pro-social today."
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"Če ne boš priden, potem danes ne bom prosocialen."
12:19
And this is what happens without a partner,
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To pa se zgodi, če je sam,
12:21
when there's no partner sitting there.
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če ni še enega udeleženca.
12:23
And so we found that the chimpanzees do care
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Tako smo odkrili, da šimpanze skrbi
12:25
about the well-being of somebody else --
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za dobrobit nekoga drugega --
12:27
especially, these are other members of their own group.
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še posebej, če se gre za ostale člane njihove skupine.
12:30
So the final experiment that I want to mention to you
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Zadnji poskus, ki sem ga želel omeniti,
12:33
is our fairness study.
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je naša raziskava poštenosti.
12:35
And so this became a very famous study.
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Ta raziskava je zelo slavna.
12:38
And there's now many more,
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Danes jih je veliko več,
12:40
because after we did this about 10 years ago,
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ker smo jo opravili pred približno desetimi leti
12:42
it became very well known.
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in je pozneje postala zelo znana.
12:44
And we did that originally with capuchin monkeys.
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Prvotno smo ga izvajali na kapucinkah.
12:46
And I'm going to show you the first experiment that we did.
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Pokazal vam bom naš prvi poskus.
12:49
It has now been done with dogs and with birds
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Do sedaj je že bil opravljen na psih, ptičih
12:52
and with chimpanzees.
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in šimpanzih.
12:54
But with Sarah Brosnan we started out with capuchin monkeys.
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Toda z Sarah Brosnan smo začeli s kapucinkami.
12:58
So what we did
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To smo naredili tako,
13:00
is we put two capuchin monkeys side-by-side.
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da smo dve kapucinki postavili eno ob drugo.
13:02
Again, these animals, they live in a group, they know each other.
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Naj vas opomnim, da ti živali živita v skupini in se poznata.
13:04
We take them out of the group, put them in a test chamber.
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Vzeli smo ju iz skupine in ju postavili v poskusno sobo.
13:07
And there's a very simple task
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Opraviti morata
13:09
that they need to do.
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zelo enostavno nalogo.
13:11
And if you give both of them cucumber for the task,
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Če za to nalogo daš kumarico
13:14
the two monkeys side-by-side,
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obema opicama, ki sta ena ob drugi,
13:16
they're perfectly willing to do this 25 times in a row.
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bosta nalogo z veseljem opravili 25-krat zaporedoma.
13:18
So cucumber, even though it's only really water in my opinion,
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Torej kumarica, ki je po mojem mnenju samo voda,
13:22
but cucumber is perfectly fine for them.
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je za njiju povsem v redu.
13:25
Now if you give the partner grapes --
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Če pa ena opica dobi grozdno jagodo --
13:28
the food preferences of my capuchin monkeys
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naklonjenost do hrane mojih kapucink
13:30
correspond exactly with the prices in the supermarket --
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ustrezajo cenam v trgovinah --
13:33
and so if you give them grapes -- it's a far better food --
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če ji torej damo grozdno jagodo -- mnogo boljšo hrano --
13:36
then you create inequity between them.
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potem med njima ustvariš neenakost.
13:39
So that's the experiment we did.
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To je bil naš poskus.
13:41
Recently we videotaped it with new monkeys who'd never done the task,
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Nedolgo nazaj smo posneli opice, ki te naloge še niso opravljale,
13:44
thinking that maybe they would have a stronger reaction,
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v upanju, da bo odziv nekoliko močnejši.
13:46
and that turned out to be right.
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Bila je prava odločitev.
13:48
The one on the left is the monkey who gets cucumber.
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Opica na levi bo dobila kumarico.
13:50
The one on the right is the one who gets grapes.
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Tista na desni pa bo dobila grozdno jagodo.
13:53
The one who gets cucumber,
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Tista, ki dobi kumarico --
13:55
note that the first piece of cucumber is perfectly fine.
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videli boste, da s prvim kosom kumarice ni povsem nič narobe.
13:57
The first piece she eats.
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Prvi kos bo pojedla.
14:00
Then she sees the other one getting grape, and you will see what happens.
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Bodite pozorni, kaj se zgodi, ko opazi, da druga dobi grozdno jagodo.
14:03
So she gives a rock to us. That's the task.
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Prvo nam da kamen. To je naloga.
14:06
And we give her a piece of cucumber and she eats it.
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Zato ji damo kos kumarice in jo pojé.
14:09
The other one needs to give a rock to us.
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Zdaj nam mora dati kamen še druga.
14:12
And that's what she does.
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To tudi naredi.
14:15
And she gets a grape and she eats it.
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Zato dobi jagodo in jo pojé.
14:18
The other one sees that.
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Druga opica to vidi.
14:20
She gives a rock to us now,
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Da nam kamen
14:22
gets, again, cucumber.
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in zopet dobi kumarico.
14:27
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
14:42
She tests a rock now against the wall.
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Sedaj preveri kamen z udarcem ob zid.
14:45
She needs to give it to us.
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Mora nam ga dati.
14:47
And she gets cucumber again.
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In zopet dobi kumarico.
14:52
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
14:58
So this is basically the Wall Street protest that you see here.
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V bistvu lahko tukaj vidimo protest na Wall Streetu.
15:02
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
15:05
(Applause)
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(Aplavz)
15:08
Let me tell you --
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Naj vam povem --
15:10
I still have two minutes left, let me tell you a funny story about this.
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ostali sta mi še dve minutki in bi vam povedal anekdoto o raziskavi.
15:12
This study became very famous
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Ta raziskava je postala zelo slavna
15:14
and we got a lot of comments,
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in smo prejeli veliko pripomb,
15:16
especially anthropologists, economists,
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še posebej s strani antropologov, ekonomistov,
15:18
philosophers.
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filozofov.
15:20
They didn't like this at all.
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Niti najmanj jim ni bil všeč.
15:22
Because they had decided in their minds, I believe,
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Zdi se mi, da so se preprosto odločili,
15:25
that fairness is a very complex issue
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da je pravičnost zelo zapleten problem,
15:27
and that animals cannot have it.
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in je živali niso zmožne.
15:29
And so one philosopher even wrote us
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Tako nam je nek filozof napisal,
15:31
that it was impossible that monkeys had a sense of fairness
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da občutek za pravičnost pri opicah preprosto ni mogoč,
15:34
because fairness was invented during the French Revolution.
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ker so pravičnost izumili med francosko revolucijo.
15:37
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
15:39
Now another one wrote a whole chapter
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Nekdo drug nam je napisal celoten sestavek,
15:42
saying that he would believe it had something to do with fairness
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da bi nam verjel, da je poskus povezan s pravičnostjo le,
15:46
if the one who got grapes would refuse the grapes.
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če bi opica, ki je dobila jagodo, jagodo zavrnila.
15:48
Now the funny thing is that Sarah Brosnan,
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Smešno pa je to, da je Sarah Brosnan,
15:50
who's been doing this with chimpanzees,
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ki je ta poskus izvajala na šimpanzih,
15:52
had a couple of combinations of chimpanzees
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naletela na par kombinacij šimpanzov,
15:54
where, indeed, the one who would get the grape would refuse the grape
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pri katerih tisti, ki naj bi jagodo dobil, je ni želel pojesti
15:57
until the other guy also got a grape.
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dokler je ni dobil tudi drugi.
15:59
So we're getting very close to the human sense of fairness.
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Torej smo že zelo blizu človeškemu dojemanju pravičnosti.
16:02
And I think philosophers need to rethink their philosophy for awhile.
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Mislim, da bi filozofi morali malo razmisliti o svoji filozofiji.
16:06
So let me summarize.
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Naj povzamem.
16:08
I believe there's an evolved morality.
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Sem mnenja, da obstaja razvita moralnost.
16:10
I think morality is much more than what I've been talking about,
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Mislim, da se za moralnostjo skriva veliko več kot to, o čemer smo se pogovarjali.
16:12
but it would be impossible without these ingredients
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Vendar to bi bilo nemogoče brez sestavin,
16:15
that we find in other primates,
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ki jih najdemo pri ostalih primatih,
16:17
which are empathy and consolation,
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to so empatija in tolažba,
16:19
pro-social tendencies and reciprocity and a sense of fairness.
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nagnjenja k prosocialnosti in vzajemnost ter smisel za pravičnost.
16:22
And so we work on these particular issues
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S temi določenimi problemi se ukvarjamo,
16:25
to see if we can create a morality from the bottom up, so to speak,
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da lahko vidimo, če je moralnost tako rekoč možno ustvariti od začetka,
16:28
without necessarily God and religion involved,
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brez potrebnega vmešavanja Boga in vere.
16:30
and to see how we can get to an evolved morality.
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Želimo videti, kako lahko mi dosežemo razvito moralnost.
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And I thank you for your attention.
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Hvala za vašo pozornost.
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(Applause)
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ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Frans de Waal - PrimatologistFrans de Waal studies primate social behavior -- how they fight and reconcile, share and cooperate.
Why you should listen
Dutch/American biologist and ethologist Frans de Waal draws parallels between primate and human behavior, from peacemaking and morality to culture. Looking at human society through the lens of animal behavior, de Waal's first book, Chimpanzee Politics (1982), compares the schmoozing and scheming of chimpanzees involved in power struggles with that of human politicians. Named one of the 100 Most Influential People Today by Time Magazine, de Waal has written hundreds of peer-reviewed scientific articles, and his popular books have been translated in over 20 languages. He is a professor in Emory University's psychology department and Director of the Living Links Center at the Yerkes National Primate Research Center, in Atlanta. His next book is on animal and human emotions, entitled Mama's Last Hug (Norton, 2019).
Frans de Waal | Speaker | TED.com