TEDxPeachtree
Frans de Waal: Moral behavior in animals
Frans de Waal: Morálne správanie u zvierat
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Empatia, spolupráca, čestnosť a vzájomnosť - starať sa o blaho druhého vyzerá ako vyložene ľudská črta. No Frans de Waal nám ukáže pár prekvapivých videí s behaviorálnymi testami, na primátoch a iných cicavcoch, ktoré ukazujú o ako veľa z týchto čŕt sa s nimi delíme.
Frans de Waal - Primatologist
Frans de Waal studies primate social behavior -- how they fight and reconcile, share and cooperate. Full bio
Frans de Waal studies primate social behavior -- how they fight and reconcile, share and cooperate. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:15
I was born in Den Bosch,
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Narodil som sa v Den Bosch,
00:17
where the painter Hieronymus Bosch named himself after.
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meste, po ktorom sa pomenoval maliar Hieronymus Bosch.
00:20
And so I've always been very fond of this painter
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A tak som mal vždy rád tohto maliara,
00:22
who lived and worked in the 15th century.
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ktorý žil a pracoval v 15. storočí.
00:25
And what is interesting about him in relation to morality
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Zaujímavé na ňom vo vzťahu k morálke je to,
00:27
is that he lived at a time where religion's influence was waning,
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že žil v čase, keď vplyv cirkvi oslaboval,
00:30
and he was sort of wondering, I think,
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a tak sa asi zamýšľal nad tým,
00:32
what would happen with society
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čo by sa stalo so spoločnosťou,
00:34
if there was no religion or if there was less religion.
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ak by neexistovalo náboženstvo alebo ak by ho bolo menej.
00:37
And so he painted this famous painting, "The Garden of Earthly Delights,"
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Namaľoval tento slávny obraz, "Záhrada pozemských rozkoší,"
00:40
which some have interpreted
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ktorý niektorí interpretovali
00:42
as being humanity before the Fall,
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ako ľudstvo pred prvým hriechom
00:44
or being humanity without any Fall at all.
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alebo ako ľudstvo bez prvého hriechu vôbec.
00:47
And so it makes you wonder,
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A to nás privádza k otázke,
00:49
what would happen if we hadn't tasted the fruit of knowledge, so to speak,
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čo by sa stalo, ak by sme neboli ochutnali ovocie zo stromu poznania,
00:52
and what kind of morality would we have?
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a akú by sme mali morálku?
00:55
Much later, as a student,
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Omnoho neskôr som ako študent
00:57
I went to a very different garden,
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navštívil celkom inú záhradu,
00:59
a zoological garden in Arnhem
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zoologickú záhradu v Arnheme,
01:02
where we keep chimpanzees.
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kde máme šimpanzy.
01:04
This is me at an early age with a baby chimpanzee.
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Toto som ja za mlada, ako držím mláďa šimpanza.
01:06
(Laughter)
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(Smiech)
01:09
And I discovered there
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A tam som zistil,
01:11
that the chimpanzees are very power hungry and wrote a book about it.
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že šimpanzy veľmi prahnú po moci a napísal som o tom knihu.
01:14
And at that time the focus in a lot of animal research
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V tom čase sa veľa výskumov zvierat sústredilo
01:17
was on aggression and competition.
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na agresivitu a súperenie.
01:19
I painted a whole picture of the animal kingdom,
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Vytvoril som si takú predstavu o celej zvieracej ríši,
01:21
and humanity included,
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vrátane ľudí,
01:23
was that deep down we are competitors,
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že hlboko vo vnútri sme všetci súperi,
01:25
we are aggressive,
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sme agresívni,
01:27
we're all out for our own profit basically.
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všetkým nám v podstate ide len o vlastný prospech.
01:30
This is the launch of my book.
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Toto je uvedenie mojej knihy.
01:32
I'm not sure how well the chimpanzees read it,
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Nie som si istý, ako veľmi knihu šimpanzy čítali,
01:34
but they surely seemed interested in the book.
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ale rozhodne sa zdalo, že ich zaujala.
01:39
Now in the process
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V priebehu
01:41
of doing all this work on power and dominance
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výskumu moci, dominancie
01:43
and aggression and so on,
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agresivity a tak ďalej,
01:45
I discovered that chimpanzees reconcile after fights.
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som zistil, že šimpanzy sa po bojoch uzmierujú.
01:48
And so what you see here is two males who have had a fight.
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A tu vidíte dvoch samcov, ktorí bojovali.
01:51
They ended up in a tree, and one of them holds out a hand to the other.
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Potom sa ocitli na strome a jeden z nich naťahuje ruku k druhému.
01:54
And about a second after I took the picture, they came together in the fork of the tree
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A asi sekundu po tom, čo som urobil túto fotku, prišli k sebe,
01:57
and they kissed and embraced each other.
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pobozkali sa a objali.
01:59
Now this is very interesting
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Toto je veľmi zaujímavé,
02:01
because at the time everything was about competition and aggression,
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pretože v tej dobe bolo všetko o súperení a agresivite,
02:04
and so it wouldn't make any sense.
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a tak to nedávalo žiaden zmysel.
02:06
The only thing that matters is that you win or that you lose.
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Jediné na čom záleží je, či vyhráte alebo prehráte.
02:08
But why would you reconcile after a fight?
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Ale prečo by ste sa po boji uzmierovali?
02:10
That doesn't make any sense.
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To nedáva žiaden zmysel.
02:12
This is the way bonobos do it. Bonobos do everything with sex.
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Šimpanzy bonobo to riešia takto. Bonobo robia všetko sexom.
02:15
And so they also reconcile with sex.
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A tak sa aj uzmierujú sexom.
02:17
But the principle is exactly the same.
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Ale princíp je presne ten istý.
02:19
The principle is that you have
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Princíp je ten,
02:21
a valuable relationship
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že máte cenný vzťah,
02:23
that is damaged by conflict,
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ktorý je konfliktom poškodený,
02:25
so you need to do something about it.
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takže s tým musíte niečo urobiť.
02:27
So my whole picture of the animal kingdom,
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Takže celá moja predstava o zvieracej ríši,
02:29
and including humans also,
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a to vrátane ľudí,
02:31
started to change at that time.
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sa v tej dobe začala meniť.
02:33
So we have this image
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Máme takú predstavu --
02:35
in political science, economics, the humanities,
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v politológii, ekonómii, humanitných vedách,
02:37
philosophy for that matter,
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vlastne aj vo filozofii --
02:39
that man is a wolf to man.
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že človek je človeku vlkom.
02:41
And so deep down our nature's actually nasty.
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A že hlboko vo vnútri je naša povaha v skutočnosti nevraživá.
02:44
I think it's a very unfair image for the wolf.
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Myslím, že táto predstava je veľmi nespravodlivá voči vlkovi.
02:47
The wolf is, after all,
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Vlk je, napokon,
02:49
a very cooperative animal.
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veľmi kooperatívne zviera.
02:51
And that's why many of you have a dog at home,
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Preto mnohí z vás majú doma psa,
02:53
which has all these characteristics also.
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ktorý má tiež všetky tieto vlastnosti.
02:55
And it's really unfair to humanity,
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A je to naozaj nespravodlivé voči ľudstvu,
02:57
because humanity is actually much more cooperative and empathic
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pretože ľudia sú v skutočnosti omnoho kooperatívnejší a empatickejší
03:01
than given credit for.
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než sa im pripisuje.
03:03
So I started getting interested in those issues
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Takže som sa začal o tieto veci zaujímať
03:05
and studying that in other animals.
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a skúmať ich u ďalších zvierat.
03:07
So these are the pillars of morality.
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Toto sú piliere morálky.
03:09
If you ask anyone, "What is morality based on?"
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Ak sa niekoho spýtate, "Na čom je založená morálka?"
03:13
these are the two factors that always come out.
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toto sú dve veci, ktoré sa tam vždy objavia.
03:15
One is reciprocity,
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Jedna je vzájomnosť
03:17
and associated with it is a sense of justice and a sense of fairness.
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a s ňou je spojený zmysel pre spravodlivosť a zmysel pre čestnosť.
03:20
And the other one is empathy and compassion.
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A tou druhou je empatia a súcit.
03:22
And human morality is more than this,
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Ľudská morálka je viac ako toto,
03:25
but if you would remove these two pillars,
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ale ak by ste odobrali tieto dva piliere,
03:27
there would be not much remaining I think.
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myslím, že by toho veľa nezostalo.
03:29
And so they're absolutely essential.
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A preto sú absolútne nevyhnutné.
03:31
So let me give you a few examples here.
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Dám vám pár príkladov.
03:33
This is a very old video from the Yerkes Primate Center
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Toto je veľmi staré video z Yerkes Primate Center,
03:35
where they train chimpanzees to cooperate.
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kde trénujú šimpanzy spolupracovať.
03:38
So this is already about a hundred years ago
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Už pred 100 sto rokmi
03:41
that we were doing experiments on cooperation.
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sme robili experimenty so spoluprácou.
03:44
What you have here is two young chimpanzees who have a box,
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Tu máte dvoch mladých šimpanzov a debničku.
03:47
and the box is too heavy for one chimp to pull in.
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Pričom debnička je príliš ťažká na to, aby si ju pritiahol jeden šimpanz.
03:50
And of course, there's food on the box.
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A pravdaže, na debničke je jedlo.
03:52
Otherwise they wouldn't be pulling so hard.
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Inak by sa tak veľmi nesnažili.
03:54
And so they're bringing in the box.
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Prisúvajú si debnu.
03:56
And you can see that they're synchronized.
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A vidíte, že sú zosynchronizovaní.
03:58
You can see that they work together, they pull at the same moment.
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Vidíte, že spolupracujú, ťahajú debnu v rovnakú chvíľu.
04:01
It's already a big advance over many other animals
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To je už veľký pokrok oproti iným zvieratám,
04:04
who wouldn't be able to do that.
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ktoré by toho neboli schopné.
04:06
And now you're going to get a more interesting picture,
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A teraz uvidíte niečo zaujímavejšie,
04:08
because now one of the two chimps has been fed.
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pretože teraz je jeden zo šimpanzov nakŕmený.
04:11
So one of the two is not really interested
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Takže jeden z nich už o úlohu
04:13
in the task anymore.
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nemá taký záujem.
04:16
(Laughter)
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(Smiech)
04:23
(Laughter)
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(Smiech)
04:34
(Laughter)
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(Smiech)
04:50
Now look at what happens at the very end of this.
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Teraz sledujte, čo sa stane na konci.
04:56
(Laughter)
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(Smiech)
05:07
He takes basically everything.
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Vezme si v podstate všetko.
05:09
(Laughter)
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(Smiech)
05:12
So there are two interesting parts about this.
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Na tom sú dve zaujímavé veci.
05:14
One is that the chimp on the right
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Jedna z nich je, že šimpanz napravo
05:16
has a full understanding he needs the partner --
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plne chápe, že potrebuje partnera -
05:18
so a full understanding of the need for cooperation.
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takže plné chápanie potreby spolupráce.
05:20
The second one is that the partner is willing to work
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Druhá je, že partner je ochotný pracovať,
05:23
even though he's not interested in the food.
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hoci nemá záujem o jedlo.
05:25
Why would that be? Well that probably has to do with reciprocity.
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Prečo tomu tak je? Nuž, pravdepodobne to má niečo spoločné so vzájomnosťou.
05:28
There's actually a lot of evidence in primates and other animals
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Dokonca je množstvo dôkazov o tom, že primáty a iné zvieratá
05:30
that they return favors.
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oplácajú láskavosti.
05:32
So he will get a return favor
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Takže on si nechá láskavosť oplatiť
05:34
at some point in the future.
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niekedy v budúcnosti.
05:36
And so that's how this all operates.
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A takto to všetko funguje.
05:38
We do the same task with elephants.
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Rovnaké úlohy robíme so slonmi.
05:40
Now with elephants, it's very dangerous to work with elephants.
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No pracovať so slonmi je veľmi nebezpečné.
05:43
Another problem with elephants
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Ďalší problém so slonmi
05:45
is that you cannot make an apparatus
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je ten, že nemôžete vyrobiť zariadenie,
05:47
that is too heavy for a single elephant.
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ktoré by bolo pre jedného slona príliš ťažké.
05:49
Now you can probably make it,
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Teda, pravdepodobne ho môžete vyrobiť,
05:51
but it's going to be a pretty flimsy apparatus I think.
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ale myslím, že to bude dosť chatrné zariadenie.
05:53
And so what we did in that case --
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A tak čo sme spravili v tom prípade -
05:55
we do these studies in Thailand for Josh Plotnik --
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tieto štúdie robíme v Thajsku pre Josha Plotnika -
05:58
is we have an apparatus around which there is a rope, a single rope.
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máme zariadenie okolo ktorého je lano, jedno lano.
06:01
And if you pull on this side of the rope,
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A ak zatiahnete za jeden koniec lana,
06:03
the rope disappears on the other side.
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lano na druhej strane zmizne.
06:05
So two elephants need to pick it up at exactly the same time and pull.
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Takže je potrebné, aby ho dva slony zdvihli presne v tú istú chvíľu a ťahali.
06:08
Otherwise nothing is going to happen
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Inak sa nič nestane
06:10
and the rope disappears.
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a lano zmizne.
06:12
And the first tape you're going to see
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A na prvej páske, ktorú uvidíte,
06:14
is two elephants who are released together
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sú dva slony, ktoré sú vypustené spolu
06:16
arrive at the apparatus.
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a prídu k zariadeniu.
06:18
The apparatus is on the left with food on it.
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Zariadenie je naľavo a je na ňom jedlo.
06:21
And so they come together, they arrive together,
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Takže sú spolu vypustené, spolu k nemu prídu,
06:24
they pick it up together and they pull together.
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spolu zdvihnú lano a spolu ťahajú.
06:26
So it's actually fairly simple for them.
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Vlastne je to pre nich celkom jednoduché.
06:30
There they are.
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Tu sú.
06:39
And so that's how they bring it in.
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A takto si to pritiahnu.
06:41
But now we're going to make it more difficult.
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Ale teraz to trochu sťažíme.
06:43
Because the whole purpose of this experiment
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Pretože účelom tohto experimentu
06:45
is to see how well they understand cooperation.
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je zistiť, ako dobre rozumejú spolupráci.
06:47
Do they understand that as well as the chimps, for example?
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Rozumejú jej tak dobre ako napríklad šimpanzy?
06:50
And so what we do in the next step
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A tak v druhom kroku
06:52
is we release one elephant before the other,
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vypustíme jedného slona skôr ako druhého
06:54
and that elephant needs to be smart enough
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a ten slon musí byť dosť múdry na to,
06:56
to stay there and wait and not pull at the rope --
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aby tam stál a čakal a neťahal za lano -
06:58
because if he pulls at the rope, it disappears and the whole test is over.
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pretože ak potiahne za lano, ono zmizne a celý test skončil.
07:01
Now this elephant does something illegal
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No ten slon urobí niečo proti predpisom,
07:03
that we did not teach it.
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čo sme ho nenaučili.
07:05
But it shows the understanding that he has,
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Ale svedčí to o chápaní, ktoré má,
07:07
because he puts his big foot on the rope,
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pretože svoju veľkú nohu položí na lano,
07:10
stands on the rope and waits there for the other,
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stojí na lane a čaká na druhého
07:12
and then the other is going to do all the work for him.
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a potom ten druhý za neho urobí celú prácu.
07:15
So it's what we call freeloading.
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Takže tomu hovoríme priživovanie sa.
07:18
(Laughter)
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(Smiech)
07:20
But it shows the intelligence that the elephants have.
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Ale ukazuje to inteligenciu slonov.
07:23
They develop several of these alternative techniques
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Vyvinuli niekoľko alternatívnych techník,
07:26
that we did not approve of necessarily.
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ktoré sme celkom neschvaľovali.
07:29
So the other elephant is now coming
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Takže teraz prichádza druhý slon
07:34
and is going to pull it in.
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a pritiahne si to.
07:53
Now look at the other. The other doesn't forget to eat, of course.
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Teraz si všimnite toho druhého. Nezabudne sa najesť, pravdaže.
07:56
(Laughter)
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(Smiech)
08:00
This was the cooperation, reciprocity part.
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Toto bola spolupráca, časť o vzájomnosti.
08:02
Now something on empathy.
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Teraz niečo k empatii.
08:04
Empathy is my main topic at the moment of research.
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Empatia je teraz mojou hlavnou témou výskumu.
08:06
And empathy has sort of two qualities.
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A empatia má v podstate dve vlastnosti.
08:08
One is the understanding part of it. This is just a regular definition:
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Jedna je pochopenie. Toto je bežná definícia:
08:11
the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.
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schopnosť pochopiť a zdieľať pocity druhého.
08:13
And the emotional part.
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A druhá časť emocionálna.
08:15
And so empathy has basically two channels.
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Empatia má v podstate dva kanály.
08:17
One is the body channel.
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Jeden je telo.
08:19
If you talk with a sad person,
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Ak sa rozprávate so smutnou osobou,
08:21
you're going to adopt a sad expression and a sad posture,
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prevezmete smutný výraz a smutný postoj,
08:24
and before you know it you feel sad.
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a skôr než ste si toho vedomí, cítite sa smutne.
08:26
And that's sort of the body channel of emotional empathy,
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A to je telesný kanál emocionálnej empatie,
08:29
which many animals have.
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ktorý mnoho zvierat má.
08:31
Your average dog has that also.
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Váš priemerný pes ho má tiež.
08:33
That's actually why people keep mammals in the home
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Preto vlastne ľudia držia doma cicavce
08:35
and not turtles or snakes or something like that
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a nie korytnačky alebo hady a podobne,
08:37
who don't have that kind of empathy.
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ktoré nemajú taký druh empatie.
08:39
And then there's a cognitive channel,
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A potom je tam kognitívny kanál,
08:41
which is more that you can take the perspective of somebody else.
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ktorý je o tom, že dokážete prijať perspektívu niekoho iného.
08:43
And that's more limited.
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A to je viac obmedzené.
08:45
There's few animals -- I think elephants and apes can do that kind of thing --
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Patrí sem pár zvierat - myslím, že slony a opice to dokážu -
08:47
but there are very few animals who can do that.
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ale inak je veľmi málo zvierat, ktoré to vedia.
08:50
So synchronization,
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Takže synchronizácia,
08:52
which is part of that whole empathy mechanism
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ktorá je súčasťou celého mechanizmu empatie
08:54
is a very old one in the animal kingdom.
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je vo zvieracej ríši veľmi stará.
08:56
And in humans, of course, we can study that
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A u ľudí ju môžeme sledovať
08:58
with yawn contagion.
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pri nákazlivosti zívania.
09:00
Humans yawn when others yawn.
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Ľudia zívajú, keď iní zívajú.
09:02
And it's related to empathy.
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A to súvisí s empatiou.
09:04
It activates the same areas in the brain.
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Aktivuje to rovnaké oblasti v mozgu.
09:06
Also, we know that people who have a lot of yawn contagion
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Taktiež vieme, že ľudia, ktorí majú silný reflex zívania,
09:08
are highly empathic.
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sú veľmi empatickí.
09:10
People who have problems with empathy, such as autistic children,
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Ľudia, ktorí majú problém s empatiou, tak ako autistické deti,
09:12
they don't have yawn contagion.
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pre nich nie je zívanie nákazlivé.
09:14
So it is connected.
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Takže je to prepojené.
09:16
And we study that in our chimpanzees by presenting them with an animated head.
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U šimpanzov to skúmame tak, že im ukazujeme animované hlavy.
09:19
So that's what you see on the upper-left,
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To vidíte hore vľavo,
09:21
an animated head that yawns.
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animovanú hlavu, ktorá zíva.
09:23
And there's a chimpanzee watching,
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A tam je šimpanz, ktorý sa pozerá,
09:25
an actual real chimpanzee watching a computer screen
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ozajstný živý šimpanz sleduje monitor,
09:28
on which we play these animations.
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na ktorom prehrávame animáciu.
09:35
(Laughter)
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(Smiech)
09:37
So yawn contagion
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Takže nákazlivé zívanie
09:39
that you're probably all familiar with --
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nám je všetkým známe -
09:41
and maybe you're going to start yawning soon now --
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a možno za chvíľu začnete všetci zívať -
09:44
is something that we share with other animals.
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je to niečo, čo máme spoločné s ďalšími zvieratami.
09:47
And that's related to that whole body channel of synchronization
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A to súvisí s celým tým telesným kanálom synchronizácie,
09:50
that underlies empathy
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ktorý je základom empatie
09:52
and that is universal in the mammals basically.
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a ktorý je obecne u cicavcov.
09:55
Now we also study more complex expressions. This is consolation.
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Skúmame aj zložitejšie výrazy. Toto je útecha.
09:58
This is a male chimpanzee who has lost a fight and he's screaming,
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Toto je samec šimpanza, ktorý prehral boj a vrieska,
10:01
and a juvenile comes over and puts an arm around him
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a príde mláďa a dá okolo neho ruku
10:03
and calms him down.
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a upokojí ho.
10:05
That's consolation. It's very similar to human consolation.
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To je útecha. Je to veľmi podobné ľudskej úteche.
10:08
And consolation behavior,
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A prejav útechy
10:11
it's empathy driven.
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je vedený empatiou.
10:13
Actually the way to study empathy in human children
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Vlastne empatia u detí ľudí sa skúma tak,
10:16
is to instruct a family member to act distressed,
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že sa rodinnému členovi nariadi, aby sa správal skľúčene
10:18
and then they see what young children do.
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a potom sledujú, čo deti urobia.
10:20
And so it is related to empathy,
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Takže to súvisí s empatiou
10:22
and that's the kind of expressions we look at.
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a na takéto výrazy sa pozeráme.
10:25
We also recently published an experiment you may have heard about.
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Taktiež sme nedávno publikovali experiment, o ktorom ste možno počuli.
10:28
It's on altruism and chimpanzees
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Zaoberá sa altruizmom a šimpanzmi,
10:31
where the question is, do chimpanzees care
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pričom otázkou je, či sa šimpanzy starajú
10:33
about the welfare of somebody else?
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o blaho iných.
10:35
And for decades it had been assumed
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A desiatky rokov sa predpokladalo,
10:37
that only humans can do that,
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že to dokážu len ľudia,
10:39
that only humans worry about the welfare of somebody else.
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že len ľudia si robia starosti o blaho niekoho iného.
10:42
Now we did a very simple experiment.
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My sme urobili veľmi jednoduchý experiment.
10:44
We do that on chimpanzees that live in Lawrenceville,
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Pracujeme so šimpanzmi, ktoré žijú v Lawrenceville,
10:47
in the field station of Yerkes.
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vo výskumnej stanici Yerkes.
10:49
And so that's how they live.
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A takto žijú.
10:51
And we call them into a room and do experiments with them.
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My ich privoláme do miestnosti a robíme s nimi experimenty.
10:54
In this case, we put two chimpanzees side-by-side.
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V tomto prípade, sme dali dva šimpanzy vedľa seba,
10:56
and one has a bucket full of tokens, and the tokens have different meanings.
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jeden má vedierko plné žetónov a tie majú rôzne významy.
10:59
One kind of token feeds only the partner who chooses,
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Jeden druh žetónov nakŕmi len partnera, ktorý si vyberá,
11:02
the other one feeds both of them.
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druhý nakŕmi oboch,
11:04
So this is a study we did with Vicky Horner.
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Túto štúdiu sme urobili s Vicky Horner.
11:08
And here you have the two color tokens.
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A tu máte žetóny v dvoch farbách.
11:10
So they have a whole bucket full of them.
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Takže ich majú plné vedierko.
11:12
And they have to pick one of the two colors.
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A musia si vybrať jednu z dvoch farieb.
11:15
You will see how that goes.
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Uvidíte, ako to dopadne.
11:18
So if this chimp makes the selfish choice,
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Takže ak sa tento šimpanz rozhodne sebecky,
11:21
which is the red token in this case,
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čo je v tomto prípade červený žetón,
11:24
he needs to give it to us.
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musí nám ho dať.
11:26
So we pick it up, we put it on a table where there's two food rewards,
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Takže si ho vezmeme, dáme ho na stôl, kde sú dve jedlé odmeny,
11:29
but in this case only the one on the right gets food.
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ale v tomto prípade jedlo dostane len ten napravo.
11:32
The one on the left walks away because she knows already.
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Ten naľavo odchádza, pretože už vie,
11:34
that this is not a good test for her.
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že toto pre neho nie je dobrý test.
11:37
Then the next one is the pro-social token.
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Ďalší je pro-sociálny žetón.
11:39
So the one who makes the choices -- that's the interesting part here --
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Takže ten, ktorý robí rozhodnutia - to je to zaujímavé -
11:42
for the one who makes the choices,
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tomu, ktorý robí rozhodnutia,
11:44
it doesn't really matter.
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je to jedno.
11:46
So she gives us now a pro-social token and both chimps get fed.
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Takže teraz nám dáva pro-sociálny žetón a oba šimpanzy sú nakŕmené.
11:49
So the one who makes the choices always gets a reward.
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Takže ten, ktorý sa rozhoduje, vždy dostane odmenu.
11:52
So it doesn't matter whatsoever.
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Takže je to úplne jedno.
11:54
And she should actually be choosing blindly.
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A v skutočnosti by sa mal rozhodovať naslepo.
11:56
But what we find
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Ale zistili sme,
11:58
is that they prefer the pro-social token.
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že dávajú prednosť pro-sociálnym žetónom.
12:00
So this is the 50 percent line that's the random expectation.
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Takže toto je čiara na úrovni 50 %, čo je náhodné očakávanie.
12:03
And especially if the partner draws attention to itself, they choose more.
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A obzvlášť ak na seba partner upozorní, zvolia si to viac.
12:06
And if the partner puts pressure on them --
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A ak na nich partner tlačí -
12:09
so if the partner starts spitting water and intimidating them --
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takže ak na nich partner začne pľuť vodu a zastrašovať ich -
12:12
then the choices go down.
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potom voľby klesajú.
12:15
It's as if they're saying,
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Je to akoby hovorili,
12:17
"If you're not behaving, I'm not going to be pro-social today."
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"Ak sa nevieš správať, nebudem dnes pro-sociálny."
12:19
And this is what happens without a partner,
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A toto sa deje, keď tam nie je partner,
12:21
when there's no partner sitting there.
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keď tam nesedí partner.
12:23
And so we found that the chimpanzees do care
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A tak sme zistili, že sa šimpanzy zaujímajú
12:25
about the well-being of somebody else --
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o blaho iných -
12:27
especially, these are other members of their own group.
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obzvlášť, toto sú ostatní členovia ich vlastnej skupiny.
12:30
So the final experiment that I want to mention to you
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Takže posledný experiment, o ktorom sa vám chcem zmieniť,
12:33
is our fairness study.
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je naša štúdia čestnosti.
12:35
And so this became a very famous study.
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A táto štúdia sa stala veľmi známou.
12:38
And there's now many more,
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A teraz je mnoho ďalších,
12:40
because after we did this about 10 years ago,
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pretože po tom, čo sme ju pred 10 rokmi urobili,
12:42
it became very well known.
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stala sa veľmi známou.
12:44
And we did that originally with capuchin monkeys.
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Pôvodne sme to urobili s kapucínskymi opicami.
12:46
And I'm going to show you the first experiment that we did.
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A ukážem vám prvý experiment, ktorý sme urobili.
12:49
It has now been done with dogs and with birds
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Už to bolo urobené aj so psami a vtákmi
12:52
and with chimpanzees.
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a šimpanzmi.
12:54
But with Sarah Brosnan we started out with capuchin monkeys.
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Ale so Sarah Brosnan sme začali s kapucínskymi opicami.
12:58
So what we did
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Takže sme urobili to,
13:00
is we put two capuchin monkeys side-by-side.
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že sme dali dve kapucínske opice vedľa seba.
13:02
Again, these animals, they live in a group, they know each other.
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Znova, tieto zvieratá žijú v skupine, navzájom sa poznajú.
13:04
We take them out of the group, put them in a test chamber.
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Vzali sme ich zo skupiny a dali do testovacej miestnosti.
13:07
And there's a very simple task
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A musia urobiť
13:09
that they need to do.
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veľmi jednoduchú úlohu.
13:11
And if you give both of them cucumber for the task,
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A ak im obom za úlohu dáte uhorku,
13:14
the two monkeys side-by-side,
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týmto dvom opiciam vedľa seba,
13:16
they're perfectly willing to do this 25 times in a row.
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budú ochotné urobiť tú úlohu pokojne aj 25 krát za sebou.
13:18
So cucumber, even though it's only really water in my opinion,
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Takže uhorka, aj keď je to podľa môjho názoru len samá voda,
13:22
but cucumber is perfectly fine for them.
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ale uhorka im úplne stačí.
13:25
Now if you give the partner grapes --
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Teraz keď dáte partnerovi hrozno -
13:28
the food preferences of my capuchin monkeys
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preferencie jedla mojich kapucínskych opíc
13:30
correspond exactly with the prices in the supermarket --
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presne korešpondujú s cenami v supermarketoch -
13:33
and so if you give them grapes -- it's a far better food --
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a tak keď im dáte hrozno - je to o dosť lepšie jedlo -
13:36
then you create inequity between them.
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potom medzi nimi vytvoríte nerovnosť.
13:39
So that's the experiment we did.
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Takže to je experiment, ktorý sme urobili.
13:41
Recently we videotaped it with new monkeys who'd never done the task,
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Nedávno sme ho natočili s novými opicami, ktoré túto úlohu nikdy nerobili,
13:44
thinking that maybe they would have a stronger reaction,
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pretože sme si mysleli, že budú mať možno silnejšiu reakciu
13:46
and that turned out to be right.
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a to sa ukázalo ako pravda.
13:48
The one on the left is the monkey who gets cucumber.
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Opica naľavo dostane uhorku.
13:50
The one on the right is the one who gets grapes.
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Tá napravo dostane hrozno.
13:53
The one who gets cucumber,
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Tá, ktorá dostane uhorku,
13:55
note that the first piece of cucumber is perfectly fine.
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všimnite si, že prvý kúsok uhorky je úplne v poriadku.
13:57
The first piece she eats.
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Prvý kúsok zje.
14:00
Then she sees the other one getting grape, and you will see what happens.
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Potom vidí, že druhá dostane hrozno a uvidíte, čo sa stane.
14:03
So she gives a rock to us. That's the task.
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Dá nám kamienok. To je tá úloha.
14:06
And we give her a piece of cucumber and she eats it.
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A my jej dáme kúsok uhorky a ona ho zje.
14:09
The other one needs to give a rock to us.
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Druhá nám musí dať kamienok.
14:12
And that's what she does.
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A to aj urobí.
14:15
And she gets a grape and she eats it.
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Dostane hrozno a zje ho.
14:18
The other one sees that.
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Druhá to vidí.
14:20
She gives a rock to us now,
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Teraz nám dá kamienok,
14:22
gets, again, cucumber.
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dostane znova uhorku.
14:27
(Laughter)
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(Smiech)
14:42
She tests a rock now against the wall.
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Teraz otestuje kamienok o stenu.
14:45
She needs to give it to us.
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Musí nám ho dať.
14:47
And she gets cucumber again.
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A znova dostane uhorku.
14:52
(Laughter)
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(Smiech)
14:58
So this is basically the Wall Street protest that you see here.
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Takže tu v podstate vidíte Wall Street protest.
15:02
(Laughter)
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(Smiech)
15:05
(Applause)
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(Potlesk)
15:08
Let me tell you --
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Dovoľte mi, aby som vám povedal -
15:10
I still have two minutes left, let me tell you a funny story about this.
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stále mám 2 minúty, poviem vám o tomto vtipnú príhodu.
15:12
This study became very famous
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Táto štúdia sa stala veľmi slávnou
15:14
and we got a lot of comments,
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a dostali sme veľa reakcií,
15:16
especially anthropologists, economists,
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obzvlášť od antropológov, ekonómov,
15:18
philosophers.
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filozofov.
15:20
They didn't like this at all.
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Vôbec sa im nepáčila.
15:22
Because they had decided in their minds, I believe,
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Pretože oni sa rozhodli, myslím,
15:25
that fairness is a very complex issue
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že čestnosť je veľmi komplexná záležitosť
15:27
and that animals cannot have it.
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a že zvieratá ju nemôžu mať.
15:29
And so one philosopher even wrote us
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A jeden filozof nám dokonca napísal,
15:31
that it was impossible that monkeys had a sense of fairness
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že je nemožné, aby opice mali zmysel pre čestnosť,
15:34
because fairness was invented during the French Revolution.
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pretože čestnosť bola vynájdená počas Francúzskej revolúcie.
15:37
(Laughter)
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(Smiech)
15:39
Now another one wrote a whole chapter
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Ďalší nám napísal celú kapitolu
15:42
saying that he would believe it had something to do with fairness
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o tom, že by uveril tomu, že to má niečo spoločné s čestnosťou,
15:46
if the one who got grapes would refuse the grapes.
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ak by ten, čo dostal hrozno, to hrozno odmietol.
15:48
Now the funny thing is that Sarah Brosnan,
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Vtipné je to, že Sarah Brosnan
15:50
who's been doing this with chimpanzees,
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ktorá toto robila so šimpanzmi,
15:52
had a couple of combinations of chimpanzees
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mala niekoľko kombinácií šimpanzov
15:54
where, indeed, the one who would get the grape would refuse the grape
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kedy skutočne ten čo dostal hrozno, ho odmietol,
15:57
until the other guy also got a grape.
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kým ho nedostal aj druhý šimpanz.
15:59
So we're getting very close to the human sense of fairness.
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Takže sa dostávame veľmi blízko k ľudskému zmyslu pre čestnosť.
16:02
And I think philosophers need to rethink their philosophy for awhile.
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A myslím, že filozofi potrebujú prehodnotiť ich filozofiu.
16:06
So let me summarize.
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Takže to zhrniem.
16:08
I believe there's an evolved morality.
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Verím, že je tu vyvinutá morálka.
16:10
I think morality is much more than what I've been talking about,
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Myslím, že morálka je omnoho viac, než o čom som tu hovoril,
16:12
but it would be impossible without these ingredients
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ale bola by nemožná bez zložiek,
16:15
that we find in other primates,
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ktoré nachádzame u ďalších primátov,
16:17
which are empathy and consolation,
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ktorými sú empatia a útecha,
16:19
pro-social tendencies and reciprocity and a sense of fairness.
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pro-sociálne tendencie, vzájomnosť a zmysel pre čestnosť.
16:22
And so we work on these particular issues
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A tak pracujeme na týchto konkrétnych veciach,
16:25
to see if we can create a morality from the bottom up, so to speak,
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aby sme zistili, či dokážeme vytvoriť morálku tak povediac zdola nahor,
16:28
without necessarily God and religion involved,
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bez zásahu Boha alebo náboženstva,
16:30
and to see how we can get to an evolved morality.
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a zistili, ako sa dokážeme dostať k vyvinutej morálke.
16:33
And I thank you for your attention.
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A ďakujem vám za pozornosť.
16:36
(Applause)
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(Potlesk)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Frans de Waal - PrimatologistFrans de Waal studies primate social behavior -- how they fight and reconcile, share and cooperate.
Why you should listen
Dutch/American biologist and ethologist Frans de Waal draws parallels between primate and human behavior, from peacemaking and morality to culture. Looking at human society through the lens of animal behavior, de Waal's first book, Chimpanzee Politics (1982), compares the schmoozing and scheming of chimpanzees involved in power struggles with that of human politicians. Named one of the 100 Most Influential People Today by Time Magazine, de Waal has written hundreds of peer-reviewed scientific articles, and his popular books have been translated in over 20 languages. He is a professor in Emory University's psychology department and Director of the Living Links Center at the Yerkes National Primate Research Center, in Atlanta. His next book is on animal and human emotions, entitled Mama's Last Hug (Norton, 2019).
Frans de Waal | Speaker | TED.com