TED Talks Live
Sebastian Junger: Our lonely society makes it hard to come home from war
Filmed:
Readability: 4
1,180,791 views
Sebastian Junger has seen war up close, and he knows the impact that battlefield trauma has on soldiers. But he suggests there's another major cause of pain for veterans when they come home: the experience of leaving the tribal closeness of the military and returning to an alienating and bitterly divided modern society. "Sometimes, we ask ourselves if we can save the vets," Junger says. "I think the real question is if we can save ourselves." (This talk comes from the PBS special "TED Talks: War & Peace," which premieres Monday, May 30 at 9 p.m. EST.)
Sebastian Junger - Journalist and documentarian
The author of "The Perfect Storm" and the director of the documentaries "Restrepo" and "Korengal," Sebastian Junger tells non-fiction stories with grit and emotion. Full bio
The author of "The Perfect Storm" and the director of the documentaries "Restrepo" and "Korengal," Sebastian Junger tells non-fiction stories with grit and emotion. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:13
I worked as a war reporter for 15 years
0
1759
3353
00:17
before I realized
that I really had a problem.
that I really had a problem.
1
5136
3465
00:21
There was something really wrong with me.
2
9101
2106
00:23
This was about a year before 9/11,
and America wasn't at war yet.
and America wasn't at war yet.
3
11231
3338
00:27
We weren't talking about PTSD.
4
15432
2392
00:29
We were not yet talking
about the effect of trauma and war
about the effect of trauma and war
5
17848
4196
00:34
on the human psyche.
6
22068
1784
00:36
I'd been in Afghanistan
for a couple of months
for a couple of months
7
24706
2250
00:38
with the Northern Alliance
as they were fighting the Taliban.
as they were fighting the Taliban.
8
26980
3008
00:42
And at that point the Taliban
had an air force,
had an air force,
9
30012
3257
00:45
they had fighter planes,
they had tanks, they had artillery,
they had tanks, they had artillery,
10
33293
3229
00:48
and we really got hammered
pretty badly a couple of times.
pretty badly a couple of times.
11
36546
3291
00:51
We saw some very ugly things.
12
39861
1966
00:55
But I didn't really think it affected me.
13
43104
1970
00:57
I didn't think much about it.
14
45098
1528
00:58
I came home to New York, where I live.
15
46650
1951
01:01
Then one day I went down into the subway,
16
49141
2365
01:04
and for the first time in my life,
17
52490
2451
01:06
I knew real fear.
18
54965
1834
01:08
I had a massive panic attack.
19
56823
2339
01:12
I was way more scared
than I had ever been in Afghanistan.
than I had ever been in Afghanistan.
20
60058
2879
01:16
Everything I was looking at seemed like
it was going to kill me,
it was going to kill me,
21
64093
3400
01:19
but I couldn't explain why.
22
67517
2293
01:22
The trains were going too fast.
23
70121
1974
01:24
There were too many people.
24
72119
1354
01:25
The lights were too bright.
25
73497
1788
01:27
Everything was too loud,
everything was moving too quickly.
everything was moving too quickly.
26
75309
2799
01:30
I backed up against a support column
and just waited for it.
and just waited for it.
27
78132
3328
01:35
When I couldn't take it any longer,
I ran out of the subway station
I ran out of the subway station
28
83115
3196
01:38
and walked wherever I was going.
29
86335
1729
01:41
Later, I found out that what I had
was short-term PTSD:
was short-term PTSD:
30
89648
4179
01:45
post-traumatic stress disorder.
31
93851
1903
01:48
We evolved as animals, as primates,
to survive periods of danger,
to survive periods of danger,
32
96993
3228
01:52
and if your life has been in danger,
33
100245
2921
01:55
you want to react to unfamiliar noises.
34
103190
2641
01:59
You want to sleep lightly, wake up easily.
35
107352
2255
02:01
You want to have nightmares and flashbacks
36
109631
2194
02:03
of the thing that could kill you.
37
111849
1809
02:06
You want to be angry because it makes you
predisposed to fight,
predisposed to fight,
38
114756
3057
02:09
or depressed, because it keeps you out
of circulation a little bit.
of circulation a little bit.
39
117837
3373
02:13
Keeps you safe.
40
121591
1331
02:15
It's not very pleasant,
but it's better than getting eaten.
but it's better than getting eaten.
41
123580
2878
02:20
Most people recover
from that pretty quickly.
from that pretty quickly.
42
128469
2454
02:22
It takes a few weeks, a few months.
43
130947
2090
02:25
I kept having panic attacks,
but they eventually went away.
but they eventually went away.
44
133061
3115
02:28
I had no idea it was connected
to the war that I'd seen.
to the war that I'd seen.
45
136200
2650
02:30
I just thought I was going crazy,
46
138874
1596
02:32
and then I thought, well,
now I'm not going crazy anymore.
now I'm not going crazy anymore.
47
140494
3134
02:37
About 20 percent of people, however,
48
145197
2630
02:39
wind up with chronic, long-term PTSD.
49
147851
3291
02:43
They are not adapted to temporary danger.
50
151166
2394
02:45
They are maladapted for everyday life,
51
153584
2761
02:48
unless they get help.
52
156369
1178
02:49
We know that the people
who are vulnerable to long-term PTSD
who are vulnerable to long-term PTSD
53
157994
3539
02:53
are people who were abused as children,
54
161557
2716
02:56
who suffered trauma as children,
55
164297
1731
02:58
people who have low education levels,
56
166052
2618
03:00
people who have psychiatric
disorders in their family.
disorders in their family.
57
168694
2558
03:03
If you served in Vietnam
58
171276
1278
03:04
and your brother is schizophrenic,
59
172578
2694
03:07
you're way more likely to get
long-term PTSD from Vietnam.
long-term PTSD from Vietnam.
60
175296
4116
03:12
So I started to study this
as a journalist,
as a journalist,
61
180571
2628
03:15
and I realized that there was something
really strange going on.
really strange going on.
62
183868
3523
03:19
The numbers seemed to be going
in the wrong direction.
in the wrong direction.
63
187415
2743
03:22
Every war that we have
fought as a country,
fought as a country,
64
190597
2372
03:24
starting with the Civil War,
65
192993
1974
03:26
the intensity of the combat has gone down.
66
194991
3056
03:30
As a result, the casualty rates
have gone down.
have gone down.
67
198878
3380
03:34
But disability rates have gone up.
68
202707
1955
03:36
They should be going
in the same direction,
in the same direction,
69
204686
2202
03:39
but they're going in different directions.
70
207702
2249
03:44
The recent wars in Iraq and Afghanistan
have produced, thank God,
have produced, thank God,
71
212124
4589
03:48
a casualty rate about one third
of what it was in Vietnam.
of what it was in Vietnam.
72
216737
5344
03:56
But they've also created --
73
224129
1960
03:58
they've also produced
three times the disability rates.
three times the disability rates.
74
226678
3346
04:03
Around 10 percent of the US military
is actively engaged in combat,
is actively engaged in combat,
75
231526
5973
04:10
10 percent or under.
76
238439
1338
04:11
They're shooting at people,
killing people,
killing people,
77
239801
2274
04:14
getting shot at,
seeing their friends get killed.
seeing their friends get killed.
78
242099
2338
04:16
It's incredibly traumatic.
79
244461
1553
04:18
But it's only about 10 percent
of our military.
of our military.
80
246038
2810
04:20
But about half of our military has filed
81
248872
2233
04:23
for some kind of PTSD compensation
from the government.
from the government.
82
251129
4222
04:28
And suicide doesn't even fit into this
in a very logical way.
in a very logical way.
83
256922
4695
04:34
We've all heard the tragic statistic
of 22 vets a day, on average,
of 22 vets a day, on average,
84
262173
5786
04:39
in this country, killing themselves.
85
267983
2607
04:43
Most people don't realize
86
271564
1490
04:45
that the majority of those suicides
are veterans of the Vietnam War,
are veterans of the Vietnam War,
87
273078
5637
04:50
that generation,
88
278739
1878
04:52
and their decision to take their own lives
actually might not be related
actually might not be related
89
280641
4498
04:57
to the war they fought 50 years earlier.
90
285163
2698
05:01
In fact, there's no statistical connection
between combat and suicide.
between combat and suicide.
91
289122
3692
05:04
If you're in the military
and you're in a lot of combat,
and you're in a lot of combat,
92
292838
3067
05:07
you're no more likely to kill yourself
than if you weren't.
than if you weren't.
93
295929
3010
05:11
In fact, one study found
94
299614
1326
05:12
that if you deploy to Iraq or Afghanistan,
95
300964
2024
05:15
you're actually slightly less likely
to commit suicide later.
to commit suicide later.
96
303012
3420
05:20
I studied anthropology in college.
97
308626
2270
05:22
I did my fieldwork
on the Navajo reservation.
on the Navajo reservation.
98
310920
3019
05:25
I wrote a thesis on Navajo
long-distance runners.
long-distance runners.
99
313963
3395
05:30
And recently, while
I was researching PTSD,
I was researching PTSD,
100
318473
4004
05:35
I had this thought.
101
323501
2105
05:38
I thought back to the work
I did when I was young,
I did when I was young,
102
326325
3079
05:41
and I thought, I bet the Navajo,
the Apache, the Comanche --
the Apache, the Comanche --
103
329428
4069
05:45
I mean, these are very warlike nations --
104
333521
2564
05:48
I bet they weren't getting
PTSD like we do.
PTSD like we do.
105
336109
3782
05:52
When their warriors came back
from fighting the US military
from fighting the US military
106
340814
2992
05:55
or fighting each other,
107
343830
1608
05:58
I bet they pretty much just slipped
right back into tribal life.
right back into tribal life.
108
346241
3943
06:03
And maybe what determines
109
351635
2254
06:05
the rate of long-term PTSD
110
353913
2694
06:08
isn't what happened out there,
111
356631
1988
06:11
but the kind of society you come back to.
112
359942
2405
06:15
And maybe if you come back
to a close, cohesive, tribal society,
to a close, cohesive, tribal society,
113
363107
4954
06:20
you can get over trauma pretty quickly.
114
368823
2325
06:23
And if you come back
to an alienating, modern society,
to an alienating, modern society,
115
371830
4346
06:28
you might remain traumatized
your entire life.
your entire life.
116
376719
3505
06:32
In other words, maybe the problem
isn't them, the vets;
isn't them, the vets;
117
380248
3111
06:35
maybe the problem is us.
118
383383
1764
06:39
Certainly, modern society
is hard on the human psyche
is hard on the human psyche
119
387325
4443
06:44
by every metric that we have.
120
392649
1914
06:49
As wealth goes up in a society,
121
397043
2361
06:53
the suicide rate goes up instead of down.
122
401523
3571
06:58
If you live in modern society,
123
406066
2090
07:00
you're up to eight times more likely
124
408180
2136
07:04
to suffer from depression in your lifetime
125
412379
2321
07:06
than if you live in a poor,
agrarian society.
agrarian society.
126
414724
2888
07:10
Modern society has probably produced
the highest rates of suicide
the highest rates of suicide
127
418915
3599
07:14
and depression and anxiety
and loneliness and child abuse
and loneliness and child abuse
128
422538
3254
07:17
ever in human history.
129
425816
1745
07:20
I saw one study
130
428695
1573
07:22
that compared women in Nigeria,
131
430292
3042
07:25
one of the most chaotic
and violent and corrupt
and violent and corrupt
132
433358
2497
07:28
and poorest countries in Africa,
133
436627
2206
07:31
to women in North America.
134
439358
1291
07:32
And the highest rates of depression
were urban women in North America.
were urban women in North America.
135
440673
5190
07:37
That was also the wealthiest group.
136
445887
1995
07:40
So let's go back to the US military.
137
448637
3849
07:45
Ten percent are in combat.
138
453096
2518
07:47
Around 50 percent have filed
for PTSD compensation.
for PTSD compensation.
139
455638
4739
07:53
So about 40 percent of veterans
really were not traumatized overseas
really were not traumatized overseas
140
461602
5102
07:59
but have come home to discover
they are dangerously alienated
they are dangerously alienated
141
467734
4306
08:04
and depressed.
142
472563
1326
08:08
So what is happening with them?
143
476341
2937
08:11
What's going on with those people,
144
479302
1817
08:14
the phantom 40 percent that are troubled
but don't understand why?
but don't understand why?
145
482051
4735
08:18
Maybe it's this:
146
486810
1324
08:20
maybe they had an experience
of sort of tribal closeness
of sort of tribal closeness
147
488158
4644
08:24
in their unit when they were overseas.
148
492826
2230
08:28
They were eating together,
sleeping together,
sleeping together,
149
496075
2633
08:30
doing tasks and missions together.
150
498732
2299
08:33
They were trusting each other
with their lives.
with their lives.
151
501055
2539
08:37
And then they come home
152
505160
1673
08:38
and they have to give all that up
153
506857
2000
08:41
and they're coming back
to a society, a modern society,
to a society, a modern society,
154
509851
3739
08:45
which is hard on people
who weren't even in the military.
who weren't even in the military.
155
513614
3533
08:49
It's just hard on everybody.
156
517171
1625
08:51
And we keep focusing on trauma, PTSD.
157
519494
3923
08:56
But for a lot of these people,
158
524685
1692
08:59
maybe it's not trauma.
159
527340
1197
09:00
I mean, certainly,
soldiers are traumatized
soldiers are traumatized
160
528561
2555
09:03
and the ones who are
have to be treated for that.
have to be treated for that.
161
531140
2369
09:05
But a lot of them --
162
533533
1194
09:06
maybe what's bothering them
is actually a kind of alienation.
is actually a kind of alienation.
163
534751
3230
09:10
I mean, maybe we just have
the wrong word for some of it,
the wrong word for some of it,
164
538321
2770
09:13
and just changing our language,
our understanding,
our understanding,
165
541115
2389
09:15
would help a little bit.
166
543528
1174
09:16
"Post-deployment alienation disorder."
167
544726
2712
09:19
Maybe even just calling it that
for some of these people
for some of these people
168
547462
2878
09:23
would allow them to stop imagining
169
551634
2578
09:26
trying to imagine a trauma
that didn't really happen
that didn't really happen
170
554236
2766
09:29
in order to explain a feeling
that really is happening.
that really is happening.
171
557707
2771
09:32
And in fact, it's an extremely
dangerous feeling.
dangerous feeling.
172
560502
2517
09:35
That alienation and depression
can lead to suicide.
can lead to suicide.
173
563043
2740
09:37
These people are in danger.
174
565807
1997
09:39
It's very important to understand why.
175
567828
2122
09:43
The Israeli military has a PTSD rate
of around one percent.
of around one percent.
176
571167
4274
09:47
The theory is that everyone in Israel
is supposed to serve in the military.
is supposed to serve in the military.
177
575650
5599
09:53
When soldiers come back
from the front line,
from the front line,
178
581273
2110
09:55
they're not going from a military
environment to a civilian environment.
environment to a civilian environment.
179
583407
4438
10:00
They're coming back to a community
where everyone understands
where everyone understands
180
588741
3707
10:05
about the military.
181
593698
1155
10:06
Everyone's been in it
or is going to be in it.
or is going to be in it.
182
594877
2155
10:09
Everyone understands
the situation they're all in.
the situation they're all in.
183
597056
2356
10:11
It's as if they're all in one big tribe.
184
599436
2269
10:14
We know that if you take a lab rat
185
602282
2034
10:16
and traumatize it and put it
in a cage by itself,
in a cage by itself,
186
604340
3672
10:20
you can maintain its trauma symptoms
almost indefinitely.
almost indefinitely.
187
608036
3157
10:23
And if you take that same lab rat
and put it in a cage with other rats,
and put it in a cage with other rats,
188
611717
5087
10:30
after a couple of weeks,
it's pretty much OK.
it's pretty much OK.
189
618018
3356
10:35
After 9/11,
190
623509
1262
10:38
the murder rate in New York City
went down by 40 percent.
went down by 40 percent.
191
626549
3293
10:41
The suicide rate went down.
192
629866
1822
10:44
The violent crime rate in New York
went down after 9/11.
went down after 9/11.
193
632756
4504
10:49
Even combat veterans of previous wars
who suffered from PTSD
who suffered from PTSD
194
637284
5319
10:54
said that their symptoms went down
after 9/11 happened.
after 9/11 happened.
195
642627
4497
10:59
The reason is that if you traumatize
an entire society,
an entire society,
196
647148
3436
11:04
we don't fall apart
and turn on one another.
and turn on one another.
197
652450
3219
11:07
We come together. We unify.
198
655693
2114
11:09
Basically, we tribalize,
199
657831
2047
11:11
and that process of unifying
feels so good and is so good for us,
feels so good and is so good for us,
200
659902
5553
11:17
that it even helps people
201
665479
1417
11:18
who are struggling
with mental health issues.
with mental health issues.
202
666920
3294
11:22
During the blitz in London,
203
670238
1765
11:24
admissions to psychiatric wards
went down during the bombings.
went down during the bombings.
204
672027
5013
11:30
For a while, that was the kind of country
205
678606
3222
11:33
that American soldiers came
back to -- a unified country.
back to -- a unified country.
206
681852
3871
11:38
We were sticking together.
207
686288
1271
11:39
We were trying to understand
the threat against us.
the threat against us.
208
687583
2611
11:42
We were trying to help
ourselves and the world.
ourselves and the world.
209
690218
4079
11:47
But that's changed.
210
695521
1601
11:50
Now, American soldiers,
211
698392
2346
11:52
American veterans are coming back
to a country that is so bitterly divided
to a country that is so bitterly divided
212
700762
3820
11:57
that the two political parties
are literally accusing each other
are literally accusing each other
213
705716
3422
12:02
of treason, of being
an enemy of the state,
an enemy of the state,
214
710670
2840
12:06
of trying to undermine the security
and the welfare of their own country.
and the welfare of their own country.
215
714265
4760
12:11
The gap between rich and poor
is the biggest it's ever been.
is the biggest it's ever been.
216
719049
4133
12:15
It's just getting worse.
217
723206
1185
12:16
Race relations are terrible.
218
724415
2408
12:18
There are demonstrations
and even riots in the streets
and even riots in the streets
219
726847
2856
12:21
because of racial injustice.
220
729727
1979
12:24
And veterans know that any tribe
that treated itself that way -- in fact,
that treated itself that way -- in fact,
221
732727
4261
12:29
any platoon that treated itself
that way -- would never survive.
that way -- would never survive.
222
737012
4930
12:35
We've gotten used to it.
223
743068
1891
12:36
Veterans have gone away
and are coming back
and are coming back
224
744983
3853
12:40
and seeing their own country
with fresh eyes.
with fresh eyes.
225
748860
4441
12:45
And they see what's going on.
226
753325
1657
12:47
This is the country they fought for.
227
755738
1855
12:50
No wonder they're depressed.
228
758433
1678
12:52
No wonder they're scared.
229
760135
1574
12:55
Sometimes, we ask ourselves
if we can save the vets.
if we can save the vets.
230
763371
3877
13:00
I think the real question
is if we can save ourselves.
is if we can save ourselves.
231
768248
3170
13:03
If we can,
232
771905
1690
13:05
I think the vets are going to be fine.
233
773619
1974
13:08
It's time for this country to unite,
234
776697
3137
13:13
if only to help the men and women
who fought to protect us.
who fought to protect us.
235
781818
4792
13:19
Thank you very much.
236
787182
1231
13:20
(Applause)
237
788437
6666
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Sebastian Junger - Journalist and documentarianThe author of "The Perfect Storm" and the director of the documentaries "Restrepo" and "Korengal," Sebastian Junger tells non-fiction stories with grit and emotion.
Why you should listen
Sebastian Junger thundered onto the media landscape with his non-fiction book, The Perfect Storm. A correspondent for Vanity Fair and ABC News, Junger has covered stories all across the globe, igniting a new interest in non-fiction. One of his main interests: war.
From 2007 to 2008, Junger and photographer Tim Hetherington embedded with the 173rd Airborne Brigade Combat Team in Afghanistan. They spent intensive time with the soldiers at the Restrepo outpost in the Korengal Valley, which saw more combat than any other part of Afghanistan. The experience became Junger's book WAR, and the documentary "Restrepo," which was nominated for the Academy Award for Best Documentary in 2011.
Junger and Hetherington planned to make a second documentary on the topic, "Korengal," meant to help soldiers and civilians alike understand the fear, courage and complexity involved in combat. It's a project that Junger decided to carry on after Hetherington was killed in Libya while covering the civil war there. Junger self-financed and released the film.
Sebastian Junger | Speaker | TED.com