TEDxMidAtlantic
Charles Limb: Your brain on improv
Čarls Limb: Vaš mozak o improvizaciji
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1,351,678 views
Muzičar i istraživač Čarls Limb se pita kako mozak radi za vreme muzičke improvizacije -- i tako stavlja džez muzičare i repere u fMRI (funkcionalna magnetna rezonanca) kako bi to otkrio. Ono što su on i njegov tim otkrili ima nesagledive implikacije na naše razumevanje kreativnosti svih vrsta.
Charles Limb - Researcher
Charles Limb is a doctor and a musician who researches the way musical creativity works in the brain. Full bio
Charles Limb is a doctor and a musician who researches the way musical creativity works in the brain. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:15
So I am a surgeon who studies creativity,
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Ja sam hirurg koji proučava kreativnost,
00:18
and I have never had a patient tell me
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a nikada nisam imao pacijenta koji bi mi rekao:
00:21
that "I really want you to be creative during surgery,"
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"Želim da budete kreativni tokom moje operacije."
00:24
and so I guess there's a little bit of irony to it.
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Tako da mislim da tu postoji mala doza ironije.
00:27
I will say though that, after having done surgery a lot,
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Reći ću uprkos tome, nakon toliko obavljenih operacija,
00:30
it's somewhat similar to playing a musical instrument.
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da je operisanje jako slično sviranju muzičkog instrumenta.
00:32
And for me, this sort of deep and enduring fascination with sound
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I za mene, ova vrsta duboke i dugotrajne fascinacije zvukom
00:35
is what led me to both be a surgeon
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je činilac koji me naveo da budem i hirurg
00:37
and also to study the science of sound, particularly music.
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ali takođe i da se bavim naukom o zvuku, posebno muzikom.
00:39
And so I'm going to try to talk to you over the next few minutes
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I tako ću vam narednih minuta pričati
00:41
about my career
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o svojoj karijeri
00:43
in terms of how I'm able to actually try to study music
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o tome kako sam bio u stanju da studiram muziku
00:45
and really try to grapple with all these questions
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i kako sam pokušao da se izborim sa ovim pitanjima
00:47
of how the brain is able to be creative.
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kako je mozak u stanju da bude kreativan.
00:50
I've done most of this work at Johns Hopkins University,
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Većinu ovog rada sam završio na Džons Hopkins Univerzitetu,
00:52
but also at the National Institute of Health where I was previously.
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ali i na Nacionalnom Institutu Zdravlja gde sam prethodno radio.
00:54
I'm going to go over some science experiments
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Proći ću kroz neke naučne eksperimente
00:56
and try to cover three musical experiments.
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i pokušati da objasnim tri muzička eksperimenta.
00:58
I'm going to start off by playing a video for you.
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Počeću tako što ću vam prikazati jedan snimak.
01:00
And this video is a video of Keith Jarrett, who's a well-known jazz improviser
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I to je snimak Kita Džereta, poznatog džez improvizatora
01:03
and probably the most well-known, iconic example
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i verovatno najpoznatiji primer ikada
01:06
of someone who takes improvisation to a really higher level.
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osobe koja stvara improvizacije na izuzetno visokom nivou.
01:08
And he'll improvise entire concerts
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I on će improvizovati čitave koncerte
01:10
off the top of his head,
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iz svoje glave,
01:12
and he'll never play it exactly the same way again,
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i nikada ih neće svirati na potpuno isti način.
01:14
and so, as a form of intense creativity,
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I tako, kao oblik intenzivne kreativnosti,
01:16
I think this is a great example.
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mislim da je ovo sjajan primer.
01:18
And so why don't we go and click the video.
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I zašto da onda ne pustimo snimak.
01:21
(Music)
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(Muzika)
02:17
It's really a remarkable, awesome thing that happens there.
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Zaista je neverovatno, fenomenalno to što se dešava ovde.
02:20
I've always -- just as a listener, as just a fan --
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Uvek sam zapanjen -- samo kao slušalac, kao obožavatelj --
02:22
I listen to that, and I'm just astounded.
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kad god slušam ovo.
02:24
I think -- how can this possibly be?
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I mislim: kako je to uopšte moguće?
02:26
How can the brain generate that much information,
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Kako mozak uopšte može da stvara toliko informacija,
02:28
that much music, spontaneously?
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toliko muzičke spontanosti?
02:30
And so I set out with this concept, scientifically,
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Tako sam postavio ovaj koncept, naučno,
02:33
that artistic creativity, it's magical, but it's not magic,
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kao umetničku kreativnost, ona je magična, ali nije magija.
02:36
meaning that it's a product of the brain.
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Što znači da je proizvod mozga.
02:38
There's not too many brain-dead people creating art.
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Nema mnogo ljudi bez moždane aktivnosti koji stvaraju umetnost.
02:41
And so with this notion that artistic creativity
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I sa tom pretpostavkom da je umetnička kreativnost
02:43
is in fact a neurologic product,
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zapravo neuronski proizvod,
02:45
I took this thesis that we could study it
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uzeo sam tu tezu koju bi mogli proučavati
02:48
just like we study any other complex neurologic process.
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kao što bi mogli proučavati bilo koji drugi složeni neurološki proces.
02:51
And I think there's some sub-questions there that I put there.
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I mislim da postoje i neka podpitanja koja sam postavio tamo.
02:53
Is it truly possible to study creativity scientifically?
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Da li je zaista moguće naučno proučavati kreativnost?
02:55
And I think that's a good question.
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Mislim da je to jako dobro pitanje.
02:57
And I'll tell you that most scientific studies of music,
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I reći ću vam da su najnaučnije studije muzike
03:00
they're very dense,
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veoma neprovidne.
03:02
and when you actually go through them, it's very hard to recognize the music in it.
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I kada prođete kroz njih, veoma je teško prepoznati muziku u njima.
03:05
In fact, they seem to be very unmusical entirely
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Zapravo, deluju vrlo nemuzikalno u celini gledano
03:07
and to miss the whole point of the music.
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i kao da propuštaju čitavu poentu muzike.
03:09
And so it brings the second question:
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I tako nas to dovodi do narednog pitanja:
03:11
Why should scientists study creativity?
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Zašto bi naučnici proučavali kreativnost?
03:13
Maybe we're not the right people to do it.
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Možda mi nismo prave osobe za to.
03:15
Well it may be,
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Pa, možda,
03:17
but I will say that, from a scientific perspective --
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ali ja bih rekao da, iz naučne perspektive --
03:19
we talked a lot about innovation today --
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mi pričamo puno o inovacijama danas --
03:21
the science of innovation,
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o nauci o inovacijama,
03:23
how much we understand about how the brain is able to innovate
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koliko razumemo način na koji je mozak sposoban da stvara inovacije
03:25
is in its infancy,
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u najranijem uzrastu.
03:27
and truly, we know very little about how we are able to be creative.
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Istina je da znamo veoma malo o tome kako smo u stanju da budemo kreativni.
03:30
And so I think that we're going to see
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I zato mislim da ćemo tek videti
03:32
over the next 10, 20, 30 years
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u narednih 10, 20, 30 godina
03:34
a real science of creativity that's burgeoning and is going to flourish.
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pravu nauku o kreativnosti koja je u razvoju i koja će tek procvetati.
03:37
Because we now have new methods that can enable us
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I jer sada imamo nove metode koje će nam omogućiti
03:39
to take this process of something like this,
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da procese kao što je jedan ovakav,
03:41
complex jazz improvisation, and study it rigorously.
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složena džez improvizacija, detaljno proučimo.
03:43
And so it gets down to the brain.
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Tako se sve svodi na mozak.
03:45
And so all of us have this remarkable brain,
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Svi mi imamo ovaj izuzetan mozak,
03:47
which is poorly understood to say the least.
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koji je u najmanju ruku, slabo shvaćen.
03:50
I think that neuroscientists
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Mislim da neuronaučnici
03:52
have many more questions than answers,
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imaju mnogo više pitanja nego odgovora.
03:54
and I myself, I'm not going to give you many answers today,
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I ja, ja vam neću dati previše odgovora danas,
03:56
just ask a lot of questions.
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samo ću postaviti puno pitanja.
03:58
And fundamentally that's what I do in my lab.
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I u osnovi to je ono šta ja radim u laboratoriji.
04:00
I ask questions about what is this brain doing to enable us to do this.
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Postavljam pitanja o tome šta je to što mozak radi a što nam omogućava da budemo kreativni.
04:02
This is the main method that I use. This is called functional MRI.
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Ovo je glavni metod koji ja koristim. Zove se funkcionalna magnetna rezonanca.
04:05
If you've been in an MRI scanner, it's very much the same,
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Ako ste nekada bili na magnetnoj rezonanci, to vam je jako slično,
04:08
but this one is outfitted in a special way
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samo je ova opremljena na specijalan način
04:10
to not just take pictures of your brain,
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ne samo da pravi slike vašeg mozga,
04:12
but to also take pictures of active areas of the brain.
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već da pravi slike aktivnih zona mozga.
04:15
Now the way that's done is by the following.
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Način na koji to radi je sledeći.
04:17
There's something called BOLD imaging,
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Postoji nešto što se zove BOLD slikanje,
04:19
which is Blood Oxygen Level Dependent imaging.
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i odnosi se na prikaz nivoa kiseonika u krvi.
04:21
Now when you're in an fMRI scanner,
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Kada ste na funkcionalnoj magnetnoj rezonanci,
04:23
you're in a big magnet
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vi ste u velikom magnetu
04:25
that's aligning your molecules in certain areas.
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koji poravnava vaše molekule u određenim regijama.
04:27
When an area of the brain is active, meaning a neural area is active,
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Kada je određena zona mozga aktivna, što znači da je neuronska zona aktivna,
04:30
it gets blood flow shunted to that area.
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dobija dotok krvi koji je povezan sa tim područjem.
04:33
That blood flow causes an increase
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Taj dotok krvi izaziva povećanje
04:35
in local blood to that area
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lokalne krvi u tom području
04:37
with a deoxyhemoglobin change in concentration.
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kao i promenu u koncentraciji deoksihemoglobina.
04:40
Deoxyhemoglobin can be detected by MRI,
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Deoksihemoglobin se može detektovati magnetnom rezonancom,
04:42
whereas oxyhemoglobin can't.
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dok oksihemoglobin ne može.
04:44
So through this method of inference --
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Putem ovog metoda zaključivanja --
04:46
and we're measuring blood flow, not neural activity --
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a merimo takođe i dotok krvi, ne neuralnu aktivnost --
04:48
we say that an area of the brain that's getting more blood
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možemo reći da je deo mozga koji dobija više krvi
04:50
was active during a particular task,
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aktivan tokom određenog zadatka.
04:52
and that's the crux of how fMRI works.
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I to je suština načina rada funkcionalne magnetne rezonance.
04:54
And it's been used since the '90s
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I on se koristi još od devedesetih
04:56
to study really complex processes.
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kako bi se analizirali neki složeni procesi.
04:59
Now I'm going to review a study that I did,
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Sada ću opisati studiju koju sam ja radio,
05:01
which was jazz in an fMRI scanner.
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a to je džez u funcionalnoj magnetnoj rezonanci.
05:03
And this was done with a colleague of mine, Alan Braun, at the NIH.
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Radio sam sa svojim kolegom, Alan Braun, na NIH-u.
05:05
This is a short video of how we did this project.
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Ovo je kratak video prikaz kako smo radili taj projekat.
05:08
(Video) Charles Limb: This is a plastic MIDI piano keyboard
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(Video) Čarls Limb: Ovo je plastična MIDI klavijatura
05:10
that we use for the jazz experiments.
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koju koristimo za Džez eksperimente.
05:12
And it's a 35-key keyboard
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A to je klavijatura sa 35 dirki
05:14
that is designed to fit both inside the scanner,
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dizajnirana tako da stane u skener,
05:16
be magnetically safe,
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da bude magnetski sigurna,
05:18
have minimal interference
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da ima minimalne smetnje
05:20
that would contribute to any artifact
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koje bi uticale na neke nalaze
05:22
and have this cushion so that it can rest on the players' legs
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i ima ovaj jastuk koji može da se položi na sviračeve noge
05:25
while they're lying down in the scanner, playing on their back.
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dok sviraju u ležećem položaju, dok su u skeneru.
05:28
And it works like this -- this doesn't actually produce any sound.
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I to radi ovako -- ovo ne proizvodi nikakav zvuk.
05:31
It sends out what's called a MIDI signal --
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Ono šalje zvuk koji se zove MIDI signal --
05:33
or a Musical Instrument Digital Interface --
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ili digitalni muzički interfejs --
05:35
through these wires into the box and then the computer,
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kroz ove žice u kutiju i potom u kompjuter,
05:38
which then trigger high-quality piano samples like this.
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koji potom aktiviraju uzorke klavira visokog kvaliteta poput ovog.
05:41
(Music)
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(Muzika)
05:47
(Music)
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(Muzika)
06:09
CL: Okay, so it works.
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ČL: Ok, dakle radi.
06:11
And so through this piano keyboard,
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Tako kroz ovu klavijaturu,
06:13
we now have the means to take a musical process and study it.
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imamo način da proučavamo muzičke procese.
06:15
So what do you do now that you have this cool piano keyboard?
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Pa šta onda radite sada kada imate ovakvu kul klavijaturu?
06:18
You can't just sort of -- "It's great we've got this keyboard."
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Ne možete samo reći -- "E pa sjajno je što imamo ovakvu klavijaturu."
06:20
We actually have to come up with a scientific experiment.
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Moramo uraditi i nekakav naučni eksperiment.
06:22
And so the experiment really rests on the following:
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A eksperiment zaista počiva na sledećem.
06:26
What happens in the brain during something that's memorized and over-learned,
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Šta se dešava u mozgu tokom učenja i memorisanja,
06:29
and what happens in the brain during something
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a šta se dešava tokom
06:31
that is spontaneously generated, or improvised,
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nečega što je spontano izvedeno, ili improvizovano,
06:33
in a way that's matched motorically
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na način koji se poklapa motorički
06:35
and in terms of lower-level sensory motor features?
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u terminima nižeg nivoa senzornih motoričkih funkcija?
06:38
And so, I have here what we call the "paradigms."
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I tako, imam ovde nešto što zovemo paradigme.
06:41
There's a scale paradigm, which is just playing a scale up and down, memorized.
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Imamo ovde paradigmu skale, što je zapravo sviranje skale gore dole, zapamćeno.
06:44
And then there's improvising on a scale --
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I tu je i improvizacija na skali --
06:46
quarter notes, metronome, right hand --
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četvrtine nota, metronom, desna ruka --
06:48
scientifically very safe,
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naučno veoma sigurno,
06:50
but musically really boring.
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ali muzički jako dosadno.
06:52
And then there's the bottom one, which is called the jazz paradigm.
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I onda je tu i poslednja, koju zovemo džez paradigma.
06:54
And so what we did was we brought professional jazz players to the NIH,
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Ono što smo mi uradili jeste da smo doveli profesionalne džez muzičare u NIH,
06:56
and we had them memorize this piece of music on the left, the lower-left --
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oni su morali da zapamte ovaj deo muzike levo, niže levo --
06:59
which is what you heard me playing --
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što je ono što ste mene čuli da sviram --
07:01
and then we had them improvise to the same exact chord changes.
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i onda su morali to da improvizuju sa istim promenama u akordima.
07:04
And if you can hit that lower-right sound icon,
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A ako možete kliknuti tu zvučnu ikonu sa donje leve strane,
07:06
that's an example of what was recorded in the scanner.
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to je primer onoga što je zapisano skenerom.
07:08
(Music)
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(Muzika)
07:36
So in the end, it's not the most natural environment,
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I na kraju, ovo nije najprirodnije okruženje,
07:38
but they're able to play real music.
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ali su oni u stanju da sviraju pravu muziku.
07:40
And I've listened to that solo 200 times,
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Slušao sam taj solo 200 puta,
07:42
and I still like it.
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i još uvek mi se sviđa.
07:44
And the musicians, they were comfortable in the end.
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I muzičarima je bilo izuzetno ugodno na kraju.
07:46
And so we first measured the number of notes.
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Prvo smo izračunali broj nota.
07:48
Were they in fact just playing a lot more notes when they were improvising?
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Da li oni zapravo samo sviraju mnogo više nota dok improvizuju?
07:50
That was not what was going on.
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Nije to bilo u pitanju.
07:52
And then we looked at the brain activity.
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Pogledali smo aktivnost mozga.
07:54
I'm going to try to condense this for you.
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Pokušaću ovo da sažmem za vas.
07:56
These are contrast maps that are showing subtractions
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Ovo su kontrastne mape koje pokazuju razlike
07:59
between what changes when you're improvising
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između onoga što se dešava dok improvizujete
08:01
versus when you're doing something memorized.
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i onoga što radite a što je memorisano.
08:03
In red is an area that active in the prefrontal cortex,
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Crveno je deo koji je aktivan u prefrontalnom korteksu,
08:05
the frontal lobe of the brain,
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frontalnom režnju mozga.
08:07
and in blue is this area that was deactivated.
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Plavo je deo koji nije bio aktivan.
08:09
And so we had this focal area called the medial prefrontal cortex
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Tako smo imali taj žarišni deo koji se zove središnji prefrontalni korteks,
08:11
that went way up in activity.
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koji je bio aktivan.
08:13
We had this broad patch of area called the lateral prefrontal cortex
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Imali smo taj široki pojas koji se zove lateralni prefrontalni korteks
08:16
that went way down in activity, and I'll summarize that for you here.
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kome je aktivnost opadala, i to ću sada sumirati za vas.
08:19
Now these are multifunctional areas of the brain.
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Ovo su multifunkcionalne zone mozga.
08:21
As I like to say, these are not the "jazz areas" of the brain.
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Kako ja to volim da kažem, ovo nisu džez zone mozga.
08:24
They do a whole host of things
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One radi mnogo drugih stvari
08:26
that have to do with self-reflection,
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kao što su samorefleksija,
08:28
introspection, working memory and so forth.
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introspekcija, radna memorija i tako dalje.
08:30
Really, consciousness is seated in the frontal lobe.
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Svest je smeštena u frontalnom delu.
08:33
But we have this combination
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Ali imamo ovu kombinaciju
08:35
of an area that's thought to be involved in self-monitoring, turning off,
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područja koja su naučena da se angažuju tokom samoposmatranja, koja se gase,
08:38
and this area that's thought to be autobiographical,
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i područja koja su naučena da budu autobiografska,
08:40
or self-expressive, turning on.
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ili samoekspresivna, koja se pale.
08:42
And we think, at least in this preliminary --
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I mi mislimo, bar sad na početku --
08:44
it's one study; it's probably wrong,
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to je jedna studija. Verovatno je pogrešna.
08:46
but it's one study --
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Ali to je jedna studija.
08:48
we think that at least a reasonable hypothesis
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Mislimo da je razumna hipoteza
08:51
is that, to be creative,
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to da, kako bi bili kreativni,
08:53
you have to have this weird dissociation in your frontal lobe.
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morate da imate ovu čudnu disocijaciju frontalnog režnja.
08:55
One area turns on, and a big area shuts off,
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Jedna zona se pali, a druga velika zona se gasi,
08:57
so that you're not inhibited, so that you're willing to make mistakes,
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kako ne biste bili inhibirani, kako biste dozvolili sebi da pravite greške,
09:00
so that you're not constantly shutting down
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kako ne biste stalno gasili
09:02
all of these new generative impulses.
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sve te generišuće impulse.
09:05
Now a lot of people know that music is not always a solo activity --
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E sada, mnogo ljudi zna da muzika nije uvek samostalna aktivnost --
09:08
sometimes it's done communicatively.
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nekada se radi u komunikaciji sa drugima.
09:10
And so the next question was:
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I tako je sledeće pitanje:
09:12
What happens when musicians are trading back and forth,
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Šta se dešava kada muzičari improvizuju naizmenično,
09:14
something called "trading fours,"
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nešto što se zove improvizujuća četvorka,
09:16
which is something they do normally in a jazz experiment?
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što je nešto što se normalno radi u džez eksperimentu?
09:18
So this is a twelve-bar blues.
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Ovo je bluz sa skalom od 12.
09:20
And I've broken it down into four-bar groups here,
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I razbio sam to na grupe skala od po četiri,
09:22
so you would know how you would trade.
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kako bi znali kako biste improvizovali.
09:24
Now what we did was we brought a musician into the scanner -- same way --
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Ono što smo uradili jeste da smo doveli muzičare u skener -- sve isto --
09:26
had them memorize this melody
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dali smo im da memorišu ovu melodiju
09:28
and then had another musician out in the control room
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imali smo muzičara i u kontrolnoj sobi
09:30
trading back and forth interactively.
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koji je improvizovao interaktivno.
09:33
So this is a musician, Mike Pope,
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Ovo je muzičar, Majk Poup,
09:35
one of the world's best bassists and a fantastic piano player.
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jedan od najboljih svetskih basista i fenomenalni pijanista.
09:43
So he's now playing the piece
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On svira komad
09:45
that we just saw
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koji smo upravo videli
09:47
just a little better than I wrote it.
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nešto bolje nego što sam ja zapisao.
09:49
(Video) CL: Mike, come on in. Mike Pope: May the force be with you.
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(Video) ČL: Majk, hajde uđi. (Čovek: Neka sila bude sa tobom.)
09:51
Nurse: Nothing's in your pockets, right Mike?
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Sestra: Nemaš ništa u džepovima Majk?
09:53
MP: Nope. Nothing's in my pockets. Nurse: Okay.
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Majk Poup: Ne. Ništa nemam u džepovima. (Sestra: OK)
10:05
CL: You have to have the right attitude to agree to it.
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ČL: Morate da imati ispravan stav kako biste pristali na to.
10:07
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
10:09
It's kind of fun actually.
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Zapravo je na neki način i zabavno.
10:11
And so now we're playing back and forth.
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I tako sada sviramo naizmenično.
10:14
He's in there. You can see his legs up there.
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On je unutra. Možete videti njegove noge.
10:18
And then I'm in the control room here, playing back and forth.
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Ja sam u kontrolnoj sobi tamo, sviram naizmenično.
10:21
(Music)
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(Muzika)
10:33
(Video) Mike Pope: This is a pretty good representation
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(Video) Majk Poup: Ovo je prilično dobra prezentacija
10:36
of what it's like.
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kako to zapravo jeste.
10:38
And it's good that it's not too quick.
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I dobro je što nije prebrzo.
10:40
The fact that we do it over and over again
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Činjenica da mi to radimo iznova i iznova
10:42
lets you acclimate to your surroundings.
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čini da se prilagodite okruženju.
10:46
So the hardest thing for me was the kinesthetic thing,
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Najteža stvar mi je bila ta kinestetička stvar,
10:49
of looking at my hands
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da gledam svoje ruke
10:51
through two mirrors,
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kroz dva ogledala,
10:53
laying on my back
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ležeći na leđima
10:55
and not able to move at all except for my hand.
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i što nisam u mogućnosti da pomeram išta izuzev ruku.
10:57
That was challenging.
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To je bio izazov.
10:59
But again,
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Ali ipak,
11:01
there were moments, for sure,
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bili su trenuci,
11:04
there were moments
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zaista,
11:06
of real, honest-to-God musical interplay, for sure.
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pravog, istinskog zajedničkog sviranja.
11:10
CL: At this point, I'll take a few moments.
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ČL: U ovom trenutku, uzeću par trenutaka.
11:12
And so what you're seeing here --
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Ono što vidite ovde --
11:14
and I'm doing a cardinal sin in science,
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I činim najgori greh u nauci,
11:16
which is to show you preliminary data.
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a to je da vam pokažem preliminarne podatke.
11:18
This is one subject's data.
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Ovo je jedan podatak.
11:20
This is, in fact, Mike Pope's data.
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To je zapravo, Majk Poup podatak.
11:22
So what am I showing you here?
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Šta vam zapravo pokazujem ovde?
11:24
When he was trading fours with me, improvising versus memorized,
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Kada je svirao sa mnom, improvizovao a ne svirao naučeno,
11:27
his language areas lit up, his Broca's area,
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njegove lingvističke zone su se upalile, njegova Brokina zona,
11:30
which is inferior frontal gyrus on the left.
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što je inferiorni frontalni girus sa leve strane.
11:32
He actually had it also homologous on the right.
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Imao je gotovo iste i sa desne strane.
11:34
This is an area thought to be involved in expressive communication.
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To je zona koja je aktivna tokom ekspresivne komunikacije.
11:37
This whole notion that music is a language --
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Čitava postavka da je muzika jezik,
11:39
well maybe there's a neurologic basis to it in fact after all,
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postoji čitava neurološka osnova za to na kraju krajeva,
11:42
and we can see it when two musicians are having a musical conversation.
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možemo da vidimo kako dva muzičara zapravo razgovaraju kroz muziku.
11:45
And so we've done this actually on eight subjects now,
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Ovo smo uradili sa osam subjekata,
11:47
and we're just getting all the data together,
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i sada sakupljamo sve podatke.
11:49
so hopefully we'll have something to say about it meaningfully.
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I nadamo se da ćemo pronaći nešto značajno.
11:51
Now when I think about improvisation and the language, well what's next?
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Sada kada razmišljam o improvizaciji i jeziku, zapitam se šta je sledeće?
11:54
Rap, of course, rap --
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Rep, naravno, rep --
11:56
free-style.
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slobodni stil.
11:58
And so I've always been fascinated by free-style.
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Oduvek sam bio fasciniran slobodnim stilom.
12:00
And let's go ahead and play this video here.
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I hajde da pogledamo i ovaj video.
12:02
(Video) Mos Def: ♫ ... brown skin I be, standing five-ten I be ♫
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(Video) Mos Def: ♫ ... tamne kože ja sam, 1.80 ja sam ♫
12:04
♫ Rockin' it when I be, in your vicinity ♫
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♫ sviram gde god sam, u tvojoj blizini sam ♫
12:07
♫ Whole-style synergy, recognize symmetry ♫
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♫ sinergija celog stila, prepoznajem simetriju ♫
12:09
♫ Go and try to injure me, broke 'em down chemically ♫
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♫ hajde probaj da me povrediš, slomi ih hemijski ♫
12:12
♫ Ain't the number 10 MC, talk about how been I be ♫
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♫ nije broj 10 M.C., pričaj o tome kako si ♫
12:14
♫ Styled it like Kennedy, late like a 10 to three ♫
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♫stilizovan kao Kenedi, kasnim kao 10 prema 3 ♫
12:17
♫ When I say when I be, girls say bend that key cut ♫
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♫ kada kažem tu sam, cure kažu sakrij ožiljak ♫
12:20
CL: And so there's a lot of analogy
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ČL: I tako postoji puno analogije
12:22
between what takes place in free-style rap and jazz.
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između slobodnog stila i džeza.
12:24
There are, in fact, a lot of correlations between the two forms of music
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Postoji zapravo jaka korelacija između ova dva oblika muzike
12:26
I think in different time periods.
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u različitim vremenskim periodima.
12:28
In a lot a ways, rap serves the same social function
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Na mnogo načina, rep je imao sociološku funkciju
12:30
that jazz used to serve.
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istu koju je imao i džez.
12:32
So how do you study rap scientifically?
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I kako proučavate rep naučno?
12:34
And my colleagues kind of think I'm crazy,
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Moje kolege misle da sam malo lud,
12:36
but I think it's very viable.
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ali ja mislim da je to vrlo moguće.
12:38
And so this is what you do: you have a free-style artist
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I ovo je to što ja radim: imate umetnika slobodnog stila
12:40
come in and memorize a rap that you write for them,
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uđe i memoriše muziku koju ste mu napisali,
12:42
that they've never heard before,
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koju nikada ranije nije čuo,
12:44
and then you have them free-style.
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i zatim on uradi slobodan stil.
12:46
So I told my lab members that I would rap for TED,
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I tako sam rekao članovima svog tima da ću repovati za TED,
12:48
and they said, "No, you won't."
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a oni su rekli, "Nema šanse."
12:50
And then I thought --
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I tada sam pomislio --
12:52
(Applause)
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(Aplauz)
12:58
But here's the thing.
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Evo o čemu se radi.
13:00
With this big screen, you can all rap with me. Okay?
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Sa ovim velikim ekranom, možete svi repovati sa mnom. Ok?
13:03
So what we had them do
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Ono šta smo mi od njih tražili
13:05
was memorize this lower-left sound icon, please.
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jeste da memorišu ovu ikonu dole levo.
13:07
This is the control condition. This is what they memorized.
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Ovo je kontrolni uslov. Ovo je to što su memorisali.
13:10
Computer: ♫ Memory, thump. ♫
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Kompjuter: ♫ Memorija, udar ♫
13:12
CL: ♫ Thump of the beat in a known repeat ♫
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ČL: ♫ Udari ritma u poznatoj sredini ♫
13:15
♫ Rhythm and rhyme, they make me complete ♫
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♫ Ritam i rima, čine me kompletnim ♫
13:18
♫ The climb is sublime when I'm on the mic ♫
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♫ Klima je uzvišena kada sam za mikrofonom ♫
13:20
♫ Spittin' rhymes that hit you like a lightning strike ♫
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♫ Izbacujem rime koje udaraju kao gromovi ♫
13:23
♫ I search for the truth in this eternal quest ♫
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♫ Tražim istinu u ovom večitom lutanju ♫
13:25
♫ My passion's not fashion, you can see how I'm dressed ♫
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♫ Moja strast nije moda, vidite kako sam obučen ♫
13:28
♫ Psychopathic words in my head appear ♫
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♫ Psihopatske reči, pojavljuju se u glavi ♫
13:31
♫ Whisper these lyrics only I can hear ♫
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♫ Pevam ove reči koje samo ja čujem ♫
13:34
♫ The art of discovering and that which is hovering ♫
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♫ Umetnost otkrivanja u kojoj se lebdi ♫
13:36
♫ Inside the mind of those unconfined ♫
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♫ Unutar misli slobodnih po volji ♫
13:39
♫ All of these words keep pouring out like rain ♫
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♫ Sve ove reči teku kao kiša ♫
13:42
♫ I need a mad scientist to check my brain ♫
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♫ Treba mi ludi naučnik da proveri moj mozak ♫
13:45
(Applause)
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(Aplauz)
13:54
I guarantee you that will never happen again.
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Obećavam vam da se ovo više nikada neće desiti.
13:57
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
13:59
So now, what's great about these free-stylers,
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I sada, ono što je sjajno kod muzičara slobodnog stila,
14:01
they will get cued different words.
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oni dobiju stimulus u vidu različitih reči.
14:03
They don't know what's coming, but they'll hear something off the cuff.
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Oni ne znaju šta sledi, ali će čuti nešto na neformalan način.
14:05
Go ahead and hit that right sound icon.
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Samo napred i kliknu na tu zvučnu ikonu desno.
14:07
They are going to be cued these three square words: "like," "not" and "head."
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Oni treba da budu stimulisani sa nekom od ove tri reči: "svidjati", "ne" i "glava".
14:10
He doesn't know what's coming.
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On ne zna šta dolazi.
14:12
Free-styler: ♫ I'm like some kind of [unclear] ♫
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Muzičar slobodnog stila: ♫ Ja sam nalik (nedefinisano) ♫
14:14
♫ [unclear] extraterrestrial, celestial scene ♫
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♫ (nedefinisano) neljudska, nebeska slika ♫
14:17
♫ Back in the days, I used to sit in pyramids and meditate ♫
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♫ Nazad u dane, kada sam sedeo na piramidama i meditirao ♫
14:20
♫ With two microphones hovering over my head ♫
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♫ Sa slušalicama na glavi ♫
14:23
♫ See if I could still listen, spittin' off the sound ♫
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♫ Da vidim da li još uvek mogu da slušam, izbacuje zvuk ♫
14:26
♫ See what you grinning ♫
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♫ Vidi kako se keziš ♫
14:28
♫ I teach the children in the back of the classroom ♫
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♫ Učim decu u pozadini učionice ♫
14:30
♫ About the message of apocalyptical ♫
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♫ O poruci apokalipse ♫
14:33
♫ Not really though, 'cause I've got to keep it simple ♫
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♫ Ne mnogo ipak, mora biti jednostavno ♫
14:36
♫ [unclear] instrumental ♫
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♫ (nedefinisano) instrumental ♫
14:38
♫ Detrimental playing Super Mario ♫
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♫ Štetno je igrati Super Maria ♫
14:41
♫ [unclear] boxes [unclear] hip hop ♫
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♫ (nedefinisano) kutije (nedefinisano) hip hop ♫
14:45
CL: So again, it's an incredible thing that's taking place.
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ČL: I ponovo, neverovatna je stvar koja se tu dešava.
14:47
It's doing something that, neurologically, is remarkable.
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Dešava se nešto što je, neurološki, fascinantno.
14:49
Whether or not you like the music is irrelevant.
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Nebitno je da li volite ili ne tu muziku.
14:51
Creatively speaking, it's just a phenomenal thing.
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Sa kreativnog stanovišta, to je samo fenomenološka stvar.
14:53
This is a short video of how we actually do this in a scanner.
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Ovo je video kako smo to radili u skeneru.
14:56
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
14:59
(Video) CL: We're here with Emmanuel.
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(Video) ČL: Ovde smo sa Emanuelom.
15:01
CL: That was recorded in the scanner, by the way.
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ČL: To je bilo snimljeno u skeneru, inače.
15:03
(Video) CL: That's Emmanuel in the scanner.
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(Video) ČL: To je Emanuel u skeneru.
15:06
He's just memorized a rhyme for us.
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Upravo je memorisao rime za nas.
15:12
Emmanuel: ♫ Top of the beat with no repeat ♫
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Emanuel: ♫ Udari ritma u poznatoj sredini ♫
15:15
♫ Rhythm and rhyme make me complete ♫
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♫ Ritam i rima, čine me kompletnim ♫
15:18
♫ Climb is sublime when I'm on the mic ♫
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♫ Klima je uzvišena kada sam za mikrofonom ♫
15:21
♫ Spittin' rhymes that'll hit you like a lightning strike ♫
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♫ Izbacujem rime koje udaraju kao gromovi ♫
15:23
♫ I search for the truth in this eternal quest ♫
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♫ Tražim istinu u ovom večitom lutanju ♫
15:26
♫ I'm passing on fashion; you can see how I'm dressed ♫
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♫ Moja strast je moda, vidite kako sam obučen ♫
15:29
CL: Okay. So I'm going to stop that there. So what do we see in his brain?
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ČL: Ok. Prekinuću ovde. Šta vidimo u njegovom mozgu?
15:32
Well, this is actually four rappers' brains.
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Ovo je zapravo mozak četvorice repera.
15:34
And what we see, we do see language areas lighting up,
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I ono što vidimo, jesu govorna područja koja se pale,
15:36
but then -- eyes closed --
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ali onda -- zatvorenih očiju --
15:38
when you are free-styling versus memorizing,
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kada ste u slobodnom stilu - nasuprot memorisanju,
15:41
you've got major visual areas lighting up.
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imate upaljenu široku zonu vizuelnog područja.
15:43
You've got major cerebellar activity, which is involved in motor coordination.
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Imate glavnu cerebralnu aktivnost, koja je uključena pri motoričkoj koordinaciji.
15:46
You have heightened brain activity when you're doing a comparable task,
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Imate povišenu moždanu aktivnost kada radite komparativan zadatak,
15:49
when that one task is creative and the other task is memorized.
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kada je jedan zadatak kreativan a drugi baziran na memorisanju.
15:53
It's very preliminary, but I think it's kind of cool.
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Ovo je sve preliminarno, ali mislim da je nekako kul.
15:55
So just to conclude, we've got a lot of questions to ask,
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I tako samo da zaključim, imamo mnogo pitanja.
15:58
and like I said, we'll ask questions here, not answer them.
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I kao što sam rekao, ovde smo da postavljamo pitanja, ne da odgovaramo.
16:01
But we want to get at the root of what is creative genius, neurologically,
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Želimo da dođemo do korena kreativnih genija, neurološki.
16:04
and I think, with these methods, we're getting close to being there.
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I mislim da smo se ovim metodama jako približili tome.
16:07
And I think hopefully in the next 10, 20 years
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I nadam se da ćete u narednih 10, 20 godina
16:09
you'll actually see real, meaningful studies
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zaista moći da vidite prave, značajne studije
16:11
that say science has to catch up to art,
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koje će pokazati da nauka mora da sustigne umetnost,
16:15
and maybe we're starting now to get there.
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i mislim da sada počinjemo sa tim.
16:17
And so I want to thank you for your time. I appreciate it.
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Želim sada da vam zahvalim na vašem vremenu. Cenim to.
16:19
(Applause)
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(Aplauz)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Charles Limb - ResearcherCharles Limb is a doctor and a musician who researches the way musical creativity works in the brain.
Why you should listen
Charles Limb is the Francis A. Sooy, MD Professor and Chief of Otology/Neurotology and Skull Base Surgery at the University of California, San Francisco, and he's a Faculty Member at the Peabody Conservatory of Music. He combines his two passions to study the way the brain creates and perceives music. He's a hearing specialist and surgeon at Johns Hopkins who performs cochlear implantations on patients who have lost their hearing. And he plays sax, piano and bass.
In search of a better understanding of how the mind perceives complex auditory stimuli such as music, he's been working with Allen Braun to look at the brains of improvising musicians and study what parts of the brain are involved in the kind of deep creativity that happens when a musician is really in the groove.
Read our Q&A about hip-hop studies with Charles Limb on the TED Blog >>
Plus our quick catchup Q&A at TEDMED 2011 -- including his top 5 songs of all time >>
Read the 2014 paper "Neural Substrates of Interactive Musical Improvisation: An fMRI Study of ‘Trading Fours’ in Jazz" >>
Charles Limb | Speaker | TED.com