TEDxMidAtlantic
Charles Limb: Your brain on improv
查尔斯·林普Charles Limb: 大脑的即兴状态
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音乐家和研究人员查尔斯·林普Charles Limb想探索大脑在即兴表达音乐时是怎样工作的， 因此他把爵士乐手和说唱歌手放到核磁共振机器上做试验找答案， 他和他团队的发现对我们理解各种创造力有着深远的影响。
Charles Limb - Researcher
Charles Limb is a doctor and a musician who researches the way musical creativity works in the brain. Full bio
Charles Limb is a doctor and a musician who researches the way musical creativity works in the brain. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:15
So I am a surgeon who studies creativity,
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我是一个研究创造力的手术医生，
00:18
and I have never had a patient tell me
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从来没病人跟我说
00:21
that "I really want you to be creative during surgery,"
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“我真希望你在手术时搞些创造。”
00:24
and so I guess there's a little bit of irony to it.
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所以我想这也是有点讽刺的。
00:27
I will say though that, after having done surgery a lot,
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我是说，做了那么多手术后，
00:30
it's somewhat similar to playing a musical instrument.
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就跟演奏一种乐器一样。
00:32
And for me, this sort of deep and enduring fascination with sound
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对我来说， 对声音的持久而深切的痴迷
00:35
is what led me to both be a surgeon
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引导我成为一个手术医生，
00:37
and also to study the science of sound, particularly music.
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并研究声学，特别是音乐的。
00:39
And so I'm going to try to talk to you over the next few minutes
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所以我想在随后的几分钟里
00:41
about my career
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我来讲一下我的职业
00:43
in terms of how I'm able to actually try to study music
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我是怎样研究音乐
00:45
and really try to grapple with all these questions
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怎样研究大脑是如何进行创造
00:47
of how the brain is able to be creative.
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等问题的。
00:50
I've done most of this work at Johns Hopkins University,
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我的大部分的工作是在約翰斯霍普金斯大学进行的，
00:52
but also at the National Institute of Health where I was previously.
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也有些是在我原先工作的国家健康研究所完成的。
00:54
I'm going to go over some science experiments
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我在这里给大家介绍一些科学实验
00:56
and try to cover three musical experiments.
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包括三个音乐实验。
00:58
I'm going to start off by playing a video for you.
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我先给大家看一段录像。
01:00
And this video is a video of Keith Jarrett, who's a well-known jazz improviser
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这是基思·杰瑞特Keith Jarrett的一段录像，他是著名的即兴爵士作曲家，
01:03
and probably the most well-known, iconic example
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估计他也是能将即兴创造升华到非常高超境界
01:06
of someone who takes improvisation to a really higher level.
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的最著名，最有代表性的人物。
01:08
And he'll improvise entire concerts
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他可以即兴表演一场音乐会
01:10
off the top of his head,
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音乐就在他的大脑里即兴产生，
01:12
and he'll never play it exactly the same way again,
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他不会再用同样的手法演奏第二次。
01:14
and so, as a form of intense creativity,
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所以，这是一种创作强度很高的一种形势，
01:16
I think this is a great example.
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我觉得这是一个很好的例子。
01:18
And so why don't we go and click the video.
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我们为什么还不点击这视频看看。
01:21
(Music)
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(音乐)
02:17
It's really a remarkable, awesome thing that happens there.
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这真是很神奇，精彩的即兴音乐。
02:20
I've always -- just as a listener, as just a fan --
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我是他的一个忠实的听众， 粉丝，
02:22
I listen to that, and I'm just astounded.
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我听到这些会感到很震惊。
02:24
I think -- how can this possibly be?
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我想：这怎么可能？
02:26
How can the brain generate that much information,
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大脑怎么可能产生这么大量的信息，
02:28
that much music, spontaneously?
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同时爆发出这么多音乐？
02:30
And so I set out with this concept, scientifically,
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所以我从这个概念出发，科学地认为
02:33
that artistic creativity, it's magical, but it's not magic,
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艺术创作，是神奇的，但不是魔术。
02:36
meaning that it's a product of the brain.
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它是大脑的产物。
02:38
There's not too many brain-dead people creating art.
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很少有不动脑子的人创作艺术。
02:41
And so with this notion that artistic creativity
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所以艺术创作的产生
02:43
is in fact a neurologic product,
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事实上是神经的产物，
02:45
I took this thesis that we could study it
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我开始了这个研究课题
02:48
just like we study any other complex neurologic process.
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就象研究其他复杂神经过程一样。
02:51
And I think there's some sub-questions there that I put there.
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我想我提出了一些潜在的问题。
02:53
Is it truly possible to study creativity scientifically?
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我们是否能科学地研究创作力？
02:55
And I think that's a good question.
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我觉得这是一个很好的问题。
02:57
And I'll tell you that most scientific studies of music,
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我想告诉你大多数的音乐科学研究
03:00
they're very dense,
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都很高深莫测。
03:02
and when you actually go through them, it's very hard to recognize the music in it.
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你很难在那些研究材料中发现音乐。
03:05
In fact, they seem to be very unmusical entirely
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事实上， 它们完全是非音乐的
03:07
and to miss the whole point of the music.
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完全丧失了音乐性。
03:09
And so it brings the second question:
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这就带来了第二个问题：
03:11
Why should scientists study creativity?
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为什么科学家研究创造力？
03:13
Maybe we're not the right people to do it.
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也许我们不是解答这问题的合适人选。
03:15
Well it may be,
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也可能是，
03:17
but I will say that, from a scientific perspective --
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但是我要说的是， 从科学的观点出发
03:19
we talked a lot about innovation today --
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我们今天谈论了很多有关发明创造的话题--
03:21
the science of innovation,
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科学发明，
03:23
how much we understand about how the brain is able to innovate
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我们对大脑是如何创造的了解
03:25
is in its infancy,
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才刚起步。
03:27
and truly, we know very little about how we are able to be creative.
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其实，我们对我们是怎样创造的知之甚少。
03:30
And so I think that we're going to see
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所以我们会在
03:32
over the next 10, 20, 30 years
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今后的10，20，30年间看见
03:34
a real science of creativity that's burgeoning and is going to flourish.
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一个真正现实的科学创造力会从兴起走向繁荣。
03:37
Because we now have new methods that can enable us
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我们现在有了新的手法帮助我们
03:39
to take this process of something like this,
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将向这样的一个过程过渡，
03:41
complex jazz improvisation, and study it rigorously.
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一个复杂的即兴爵士乐创造的过程，并严格地分析研究它。
03:43
And so it gets down to the brain.
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所以说到大脑，
03:45
And so all of us have this remarkable brain,
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我们所有的人都有一个非凡的大脑，
03:47
which is poorly understood to say the least.
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至少现在来说，我们对它的了解是非常有限的。
03:50
I think that neuroscientists
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我想神经学家
03:52
have many more questions than answers,
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的问题比答案要多。
03:54
and I myself, I'm not going to give you many answers today,
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而我今天也没办法给你很多答案，
03:56
just ask a lot of questions.
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只能提出很多问题。
03:58
And fundamentally that's what I do in my lab.
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这也是基本上我在实验室做的事情。
04:00
I ask questions about what is this brain doing to enable us to do this.
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我追问到底大脑做了什么使得我们能做这些事情。
04:02
This is the main method that I use. This is called functional MRI.
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这是我用的主要方法，这是功能性的核磁共振成像。
04:05
If you've been in an MRI scanner, it's very much the same,
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如果你用过核磁共振成像扫描仪，它们是一样的，
04:08
but this one is outfitted in a special way
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但是这个有特殊的配备
04:10
to not just take pictures of your brain,
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所以它不只是给你的大脑拍照，
04:12
but to also take pictures of active areas of the brain.
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而且给大脑活跃的区域拍照。
04:15
Now the way that's done is by the following.
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整个完成的过程如下，
04:17
There's something called BOLD imaging,
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这是叫做BOLD成像，
04:19
which is Blood Oxygen Level Dependent imaging.
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它代表血液氧气水平成像。
04:21
Now when you're in an fMRI scanner,
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现在如果你在功能性核磁共振扫描仪中，
04:23
you're in a big magnet
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你在一个大磁场里
04:25
that's aligning your molecules in certain areas.
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这是和你的一些特别区域的分子对应。
04:27
When an area of the brain is active, meaning a neural area is active,
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当大脑活跃时，也就是神经区域活跃时，
04:30
it gets blood flow shunted to that area.
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血液会往那个区域流动。
04:33
That blood flow causes an increase
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血液流动会导致那个
04:35
in local blood to that area
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区域的血液增加
04:37
with a deoxyhemoglobin change in concentration.
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导致脱氧血红蛋白的浓度发生变化。
04:40
Deoxyhemoglobin can be detected by MRI,
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核磁共振扫描仪可以探测脱氧血红蛋白，
04:42
whereas oxyhemoglobin can't.
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但不能探测氧合血红蛋白。
04:44
So through this method of inference --
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所以用这种手法来推理
04:46
and we're measuring blood flow, not neural activity --
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我们测量血液的流动，不是神经的活动。
04:48
we say that an area of the brain that's getting more blood
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我们可以说大脑的某个部分得到了更多的血液，
04:50
was active during a particular task,
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这个部分在人做某些事情时特别活跃。
04:52
and that's the crux of how fMRI works.
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这就是功能磁共振成像的关键。
04:54
And it's been used since the '90s
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这从90年代就被使用
04:56
to study really complex processes.
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用来研究复杂的过程。
04:59
Now I'm going to review a study that I did,
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现在我来介绍我做的一个研究
05:01
which was jazz in an fMRI scanner.
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是关于爵士的功能磁共振成像。
05:03
And this was done with a colleague of mine, Alan Braun, at the NIH.
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这是我和我的同事阿兰·布朗Alan Braun一起在国家健康研究所做的。
05:05
This is a short video of how we did this project.
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这是我们如果做这个实验的一段录像。
05:08
(Video) Charles Limb: This is a plastic MIDI piano keyboard
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(录像)查尔斯·林普Charles Limb: 这是一个塑料的MIDI琴键键盘
05:10
that we use for the jazz experiments.
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我们用它来做爵士实验。
05:12
And it's a 35-key keyboard
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它有35个键
05:14
that is designed to fit both inside the scanner,
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是为了可以在扫描仪中使用而设计的，
05:16
be magnetically safe,
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它保证磁控安全，
05:18
have minimal interference
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并将可能造成影响的人为干扰
05:20
that would contribute to any artifact
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减到最小，
05:22
and have this cushion so that it can rest on the players' legs
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这个垫子可以放在演奏者的腿上，
05:25
while they're lying down in the scanner, playing on their back.
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他们在扫描仪中，他们是躺着弹琴的。
05:28
And it works like this -- this doesn't actually produce any sound.
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这是像这样工作的，它并不产生声音。
05:31
It sends out what's called a MIDI signal --
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它传递所谓的MIDI信号
05:33
or a Musical Instrument Digital Interface --
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也称为乐器数字界面，
05:35
through these wires into the box and then the computer,
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通过这个电线传到盒子和计算机中，
05:38
which then trigger high-quality piano samples like this.
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然后产生了象这样高质量钢琴声。
05:41
(Music)
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(音乐)
05:47
(Music)
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(音乐)
06:09
CL: Okay, so it works.
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CL：好的， 它是这样工作的。
06:11
And so through this piano keyboard,
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所以通过钢琴的琴键，
06:13
we now have the means to take a musical process and study it.
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我们可以有办法记录音乐的过程来进行研究。
06:15
So what do you do now that you have this cool piano keyboard?
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所以你有了这个很酷的钢琴琴键后干什么呢？
06:18
You can't just sort of -- "It's great we've got this keyboard."
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你不能说：“太好了，我们有了键盘了。”
06:20
We actually have to come up with a scientific experiment.
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我们得想出真正的科学实验。
06:22
And so the experiment really rests on the following:
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实验其实是由以下的内容组成的。
06:26
What happens in the brain during something that's memorized and over-learned,
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大脑在人们靠记忆演奏熟知的音乐时是怎样反应的？
06:29
and what happens in the brain during something
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大脑在演奏者自发和即兴创作
06:31
that is spontaneously generated, or improvised,
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时又是如何反应的？
06:33
in a way that's matched motorically
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从某个角度来说这与肌肉运动相匹配
06:35
and in terms of lower-level sensory motor features?
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并符合低级感知运动的特征吗？
06:38
And so, I have here what we call the "paradigms."
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我这里有一段范例。
06:41
There's a scale paradigm, which is just playing a scale up and down, memorized.
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这是一段音阶范例， 只需要跟了音阶上下， 记住就行。
06:44
And then there's improvising on a scale --
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而这是对这段音阶的即兴发挥，
06:46
quarter notes, metronome, right hand --
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4分音符， 节拍器和右手，
06:48
scientifically very safe,
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科学上来说很妥当，
06:50
but musically really boring.
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但是从音乐上来说很单调。
06:52
And then there's the bottom one, which is called the jazz paradigm.
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底下的这个，叫做爵士范例。
06:54
And so what we did was we brought professional jazz players to the NIH,
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我们把专业的爵士乐演奏者请到国家健康研究中心，
06:56
and we had them memorize this piece of music on the left, the lower-left --
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我们让他们记住左边的这段音乐，左下
06:59
which is what you heard me playing --
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就是你听到我弹的这段，
07:01
and then we had them improvise to the same exact chord changes.
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然后我们让他们用同样的和音来即兴发挥。
07:04
And if you can hit that lower-right sound icon,
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如果你能按右下角的按钮，
07:06
that's an example of what was recorded in the scanner.
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这就是扫描仪录下的例子。
07:08
(Music)
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(音乐)
07:36
So in the end, it's not the most natural environment,
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说到底，这并不是最自然的环境，
07:38
but they're able to play real music.
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但是他们能弹奏真的音乐。
07:40
And I've listened to that solo 200 times,
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我已经听了这段独奏200遍了，
07:42
and I still like it.
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我还是喜欢它。
07:44
And the musicians, they were comfortable in the end.
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音乐家们最后也感到挺舒适。
07:46
And so we first measured the number of notes.
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我们首先测量音符数量。
07:48
Were they in fact just playing a lot more notes when they were improvising?
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他们在即兴创作时会演奏很多音符吗？
07:50
That was not what was going on.
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结果不是这样。
07:52
And then we looked at the brain activity.
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然后我们查看了大脑的活动。
07:54
I'm going to try to condense this for you.
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我来把这个给你们压缩在一起。
07:56
These are contrast maps that are showing subtractions
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这些对比图展示了大脑在
07:59
between what changes when you're improvising
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在你做即兴创作时
08:01
versus when you're doing something memorized.
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和你在做熟记的事情时的不同。
08:03
In red is an area that active in the prefrontal cortex,
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左前头叶外皮的一个活跃地区呈红色，
08:05
the frontal lobe of the brain,
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这是在大脑的前叶。
08:07
and in blue is this area that was deactivated.
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蓝色的地区是不活跃地区。
08:09
And so we had this focal area called the medial prefrontal cortex
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所以我们看到这个前额皮质一侧是一个焦点
08:11
that went way up in activity.
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活跃程度很高。
08:13
We had this broad patch of area called the lateral prefrontal cortex
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我们可以看到这前额皮质的这一侧一大块
08:16
that went way down in activity, and I'll summarize that for you here.
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活跃程度很低， 我在这里为你们总结一下。
08:19
Now these are multifunctional areas of the brain.
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这是大脑的多功能区域。
08:21
As I like to say, these are not the "jazz areas" of the brain.
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像我说的那样， 这不是大脑的爵士部分。
08:24
They do a whole host of things
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它们担当了很多的事情
08:26
that have to do with self-reflection,
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包括自省，
08:28
introspection, working memory and so forth.
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内省， 工作记忆等。
08:30
Really, consciousness is seated in the frontal lobe.
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人的意识其实是处于大脑前叶。
08:33
But we have this combination
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但是我们发现这些联系在一起的
08:35
of an area that's thought to be involved in self-monitoring, turning off,
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主管自我控制的区域关闭了，
08:38
and this area that's thought to be autobiographical,
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而这个代表自传
08:40
or self-expressive, turning on.
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自我表达的区域活跃起来。
08:42
And we think, at least in this preliminary --
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所以我们想，至少初步是这么想，
08:44
it's one study; it's probably wrong,
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这只是一个研究， 可能是错误的。
08:46
but it's one study --
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但是这是一个研究成果。
08:48
we think that at least a reasonable hypothesis
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我想至少是一个合理的解说
08:51
is that, to be creative,
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就是， 要有创造力，
08:53
you have to have this weird dissociation in your frontal lobe.
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你需要跟你的大脑前叶达成这种奇怪的分离。
08:55
One area turns on, and a big area shuts off,
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一个区域打开了，一个大的区域关闭了，
08:57
so that you're not inhibited, so that you're willing to make mistakes,
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因此你会感到不受局限的， 你愿意犯错，
09:00
so that you're not constantly shutting down
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而不是老是去停止尝试
09:02
all of these new generative impulses.
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所有新创造的冲动。
09:05
Now a lot of people know that music is not always a solo activity --
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很多人都知道音乐不总是一个单独的活动，
09:08
sometimes it's done communicatively.
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有的时候它是通过沟通合作完成的。
09:10
And so the next question was:
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所以下面的一个问题是：
09:12
What happens when musicians are trading back and forth,
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当音乐家们互相弹奏音乐时大脑是怎样活动的呢？
09:14
something called "trading fours,"
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有种手法叫四小节交换，
09:16
which is something they do normally in a jazz experiment?
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这是种在爵士乐中常用的方法吗？
09:18
So this is a twelve-bar blues.
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这是一个12小节的爵士。
09:20
And I've broken it down into four-bar groups here,
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这里我把它分成四小节一组，
09:22
so you would know how you would trade.
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所以你知道怎么切换。
09:24
Now what we did was we brought a musician into the scanner -- same way --
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我们用同样的办法把一个音乐人安排到扫描仪中，
09:26
had them memorize this melody
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让他记住这段旋律
09:28
and then had another musician out in the control room
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然后让另一个演奏者在控制室
09:30
trading back and forth interactively.
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跟他前后交互演奏。
09:33
So this is a musician, Mike Pope,
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这是那个音乐家，迈克·蒲柏Mike Pope，
09:35
one of the world's best bassists and a fantastic piano player.
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世界上最好的贝斯手， 一个奇妙的钢琴手。
09:43
So he's now playing the piece
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他现在在弹的这一段
09:45
that we just saw
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我们要看见的这一段
09:47
just a little better than I wrote it.
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只不过他弹得音乐比我写的音乐要好点。
09:49
(Video) CL: Mike, come on in. Mike Pope: May the force be with you.
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(视频) CL：迈克Mile, 请进。 ( 男人：愿力量与你同在。)
09:51
Nurse: Nothing's in your pockets, right Mike?
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护士：你口袋里没其他东西吧，迈克Mike?
09:53
MP: Nope. Nothing's in my pockets. Nurse: Okay.
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迈克·蒲柏Mike Pope: 没有， 我口袋里没东西。(护士：好的。)
10:05
CL: You have to have the right attitude to agree to it.
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CL：你答应做这个实验时需要有正确的态度。
10:07
(Laughter)
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(笑声)
10:09
It's kind of fun actually.
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这其实挺好玩的。
10:11
And so now we're playing back and forth.
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现在我们开始互相交互弹奏。
10:14
He's in there. You can see his legs up there.
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他在里面， 你可以看见他的腿在那儿。
10:18
And then I'm in the control room here, playing back and forth.
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而我在控制室， 我们弹来弹去。
10:21
(Music)
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(音乐)
10:33
(Video) Mike Pope: This is a pretty good representation
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(视频)迈克·蒲柏Mike Pope:这很好的代表了
10:36
of what it's like.
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演奏的状态。
10:38
And it's good that it's not too quick.
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而且曲子不是太快，这很好。
10:40
The fact that we do it over and over again
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我们之所以一遍又一遍地实验
10:42
lets you acclimate to your surroundings.
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是为了让你熟悉新的环境。
10:46
So the hardest thing for me was the kinesthetic thing,
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那个头套对我来说，让我有点行动不便，
10:49
of looking at my hands
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我通过两边的镜子
10:51
through two mirrors,
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看见我的手，
10:53
laying on my back
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我仰面躺着
10:55
and not able to move at all except for my hand.
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除了手我完全不能动。
10:57
That was challenging.
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这是很有挑战性的。
10:59
But again,
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但是再说了，
11:01
there were moments, for sure,
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有些时刻，真的，
11:04
there were moments
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有一些时刻
11:06
of real, honest-to-God musical interplay, for sure.
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你会感到绝对发自内心地，诚挚地与音乐交流，真的。
11:10
CL: At this point, I'll take a few moments.
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CL：到此， 我来回顾一下。
11:12
And so what you're seeing here --
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你们到底看到了什么，
11:14
and I'm doing a cardinal sin in science,
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而我在犯科学之大忌，
11:16
which is to show you preliminary data.
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给你们展示初步的数据。
11:18
This is one subject's data.
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这只是一个实验的数据。
11:20
This is, in fact, Mike Pope's data.
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这是，事实上，迈克·蒲柏Mike Pope的数据。
11:22
So what am I showing you here?
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所以我在这里给你看的是什么呢？
11:24
When he was trading fours with me, improvising versus memorized,
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当他在跟我交换四小节的演奏时， 靠的是即兴不是记忆，
11:27
his language areas lit up, his Broca's area,
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他的语言部分亮了起来，他的布洛卡区域
11:30
which is inferior frontal gyrus on the left.
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就是他左脑的前方下面的脑回。
11:32
He actually had it also homologous on the right.
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其实他右脑边的同源也有同样的表现。
11:34
This is an area thought to be involved in expressive communication.
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这个区域被认为是有关于表达和交流的。
11:37
This whole notion that music is a language --
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音乐是语言的想法，
11:39
well maybe there's a neurologic basis to it in fact after all,
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说到底大概是具有神经学基础的，
11:42
and we can see it when two musicians are having a musical conversation.
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我们可以通过两个音乐人的音乐交流看到这结论。
11:45
And so we've done this actually on eight subjects now,
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我们已经对8个对象做了类似的实验，
11:47
and we're just getting all the data together,
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我们收集了所有的数据。
11:49
so hopefully we'll have something to say about it meaningfully.
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希望我们可以能从中得出一些有意义的结论。
11:51
Now when I think about improvisation and the language, well what's next?
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当我们说到即兴和语言时，我们还会想到什么呢？
11:54
Rap, of course, rap --
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说唱，当然， 说唱
11:56
free-style.
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自由式说唱。
11:58
And so I've always been fascinated by free-style.
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我一直感到自由式说唱的形势很奇妙。
12:00
And let's go ahead and play this video here.
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让我们在这里放一段录像。
12:02
(Video) Mos Def: ♫ ... brown skin I be, standing five-ten I be ♫
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(视频)摩斯·戴夫Mos Def：♫ ... 我是粽皮肤，我有五英尺十英寸高... brown skin I be, standing five-ten I be ♫
12:04
♫ Rockin' it when I be, in your vicinity ♫
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♫ 当我在你附近摇滚时Rockin' it when I be, in your vicinity ♫
12:07
♫ Whole-style synergy, recognize symmetry ♫
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♫ 整体协同，相互认识Whole-style synergy, recognize symmetry ♫
12:09
♫ Go and try to injure me, broke 'em down chemically ♫
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♫ 来吧试着伤害我，让我伤心欲绝Go and try to injure me, broke 'em down chemically ♫
12:12
♫ Ain't the number 10 MC, talk about how been I be ♫
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♫ 提及10 M.C.号码，谈到的正是我Ain't the number 10 M.C., talk about how been I be ♫
12:14
♫ Styled it like Kennedy, late like a 10 to three ♫
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♫ 像肯尼迪的风格，在夜里10点到3点Styled it like Kennedy, late like a 10 to three ♫
12:17
♫ When I say when I be, girls say bend that key cut ♫
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♫ 当我说我自己时，女孩们随声附和When I say when I be, girls say bend that key cut ♫
12:20
CL: And so there's a lot of analogy
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CL: 所以自由式说唱和爵士乐之间
12:22
between what takes place in free-style rap and jazz.
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有很大的相似之处。
12:24
There are, in fact, a lot of correlations between the two forms of music
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事实上，我觉得在不同的时代，这两种音乐有很多相关的地方
12:26
I think in different time periods.
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。
12:28
In a lot a ways, rap serves the same social function
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在很多方面， 说唱实现了很多爵士曾经
12:30
that jazz used to serve.
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担当的社会功能。
12:32
So how do you study rap scientifically?
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所以我们该怎样科学地研究说唱呢？
12:34
And my colleagues kind of think I'm crazy,
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我同事觉得我很疯狂，
12:36
but I think it's very viable.
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但是我觉得这是可行的。
12:38
And so this is what you do: you have a free-style artist
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这是你要做的：你请一个自由说唱的艺术家来
12:40
come in and memorize a rap that you write for them,
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记住你为他们写好的说唱词，
12:42
that they've never heard before,
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他们以前从来没听说过这种说唱词，
12:44
and then you have them free-style.
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然后你让他们自由发挥。
12:46
So I told my lab members that I would rap for TED,
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我告诉我实验室成员说我会在TED讲台说唱，
12:48
and they said, "No, you won't."
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他们说：“不会吧，你不会真正说唱吧。”
12:50
And then I thought --
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然后我想--
12:52
(Applause)
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(掌声)
12:58
But here's the thing.
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这说唱词就在
13:00
With this big screen, you can all rap with me. Okay?
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这大屏幕，你们可以跟我一起说唱，行吗？
13:03
So what we had them do
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所以我们让他们做的是
13:05
was memorize this lower-left sound icon, please.
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请他们记住左下角的声音记号。
13:07
This is the control condition. This is what they memorized.
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这是控制的条件。这是他们记住的说唱。
13:10
Computer: ♫ Memory, thump. ♫
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计算机：♫ 记忆，即兴说唱Memory, thump. ♫
13:12
CL: ♫ Thump of the beat in a known repeat ♫
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CL: ♫熟知一个重复节拍来动感说唱Thump of the beat in a known repeat ♫
13:15
♫ Rhythm and rhyme, they make me complete ♫
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♫节奏和韵律使我能完美说唱Rhythm and rhyme, they make me complete ♫
13:18
♫ The climb is sublime when I'm on the mic ♫
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♫当我即兴说唱时，我就如同攀登上了高峰一样兴奋The climb is sublime when I'm on the mic ♫
13:20
♫ Spittin' rhymes that hit you like a lightning strike ♫
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♫ 这押韵的即兴表演就如同你被雷击一样Spittin' rhymes that hit you like a lightning strike ♫
13:23
♫ I search for the truth in this eternal quest ♫
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♫我在这永恒追寻中寻求真理I search for the truth in this eternal quest ♫
13:25
♫ My passion's not fashion, you can see how I'm dressed ♫
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♫ 我的激情可不等同于我的时尚，大家可能看出我不怎么打扮My passion's not fashion, you can see how I'm dressed ♫
13:28
♫ Psychopathic words in my head appear ♫
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♫ 在我脑海中有些胡思乱语Psychopathic words, in my head appear ♫
13:31
♫ Whisper these lyrics only I can hear ♫
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♫ 这些微妙的细语只有我能理解Whisper these lyrics only I can hear ♫
13:34
♫ The art of discovering and that which is hovering ♫
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♫ 对艺术的探索我还在徘徊的路上The art of discovering and that which is hovering ♫
13:36
♫ Inside the mind of those unconfined ♫
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♫ 在未知的内心深处Inside the mind of those unconfined ♫
13:39
♫ All of these words keep pouring out like rain ♫
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♫ 所有这些轻声细语像才思泉涌一样不断地迸出All of these words keep pouring out like rain ♫
13:42
♫ I need a mad scientist to check my brain ♫
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♫我需要一个疯狂的科学家来了解我才思泉涌的大脑I need a mad scientist to check my brain ♫
13:45
(Applause)
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(掌声)
13:54
I guarantee you that will never happen again.
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我向你们保证，这不会再发生了。
13:57
(Laughter)
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(笑声)
13:59
So now, what's great about these free-stylers,
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这些自由式说唱家的伟大之处是
14:01
they will get cued different words.
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你给他们不同的说唱词，他们也能演绎。
14:03
They don't know what's coming, but they'll hear something off the cuff.
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他们不知道你给他们什么样的说唱词，但是他们听了以后，会马上即兴发挥。
14:05
Go ahead and hit that right sound icon.
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请按一下右边那个声音图标。
14:07
They are going to be cued these three square words: "like," "not" and "head."
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我们会给他们方框里的这些词'喜欢like', '不not','头head'。
14:10
He doesn't know what's coming.
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他们不知道接下来的词会是什么。
14:12
Free-styler: ♫ I'm like some kind of [unclear] ♫
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自由式说唱者：♫ 我有点像那些自由人士I'm like some kind of Freedom Beings ♫
14:14
♫ [unclear] extraterrestrial, celestial scene ♫
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♫ 外星人，天文奇观[unclear] extraterrestrial, celestial scene ♫
14:17
♫ Back in the days, I used to sit in pyramids and meditate ♫
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♫ 回首往事，我曾坐在金字塔边冥想Back in the days, I used to sit in pyramids and meditate ♫
14:20
♫ With two microphones hovering over my head ♫
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♫ 在我头上盘旋着2个麦克风With two microphones hovering over my head ♫
14:23
♫ See if I could still listen, spittin' off the sound ♫
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♫ 看看我是否能听到一些声音，即兴说唱See if I could still listen, spittin' off the sound ♫
14:26
♫ See what you grinning ♫
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♫ 看着大家在嬉笑See what you grinning ♫
14:28
♫ I teach the children in the back of the classroom ♫
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♫ 我在教室后面教学生I teach the children in the back of the classroom ♫
14:30
♫ About the message of apocalyptical ♫
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♫ 有关启示论的福音About the message of apocalyptical ♫
14:33
♫ Not really though, 'cause I've got to keep it simple ♫
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♫ 不是说真的，因为我要使它变简单Not really though, cuz I've got to keep it simple ♫
14:36
♫ [unclear] instrumental ♫
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♫ 乐器[unclear] instrumental ♫
14:38
♫ Detrimental playing Super Mario ♫
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♫ 打超级玛利游戏有害Detrimental playing Super Mario ♫
14:41
♫ [unclear] boxes [unclear] hip hop ♫
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♫ 音乐盒子 嘻哈Hip Hop[unclear] boxes [unclear] hip hop ♫
14:45
CL: So again, it's an incredible thing that's taking place.
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CL: 令人难以置信的事情又发生了。
14:47
It's doing something that, neurologically, is remarkable.
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从神经学角度来讲，这些事情是有显著意义的。
14:49
Whether or not you like the music is irrelevant.
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无论你是否喜欢音乐，
14:51
Creatively speaking, it's just a phenomenal thing.
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仅从创造性的角度来说， 这也是非凡的。
14:53
This is a short video of how we actually do this in a scanner.
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这一小段录像记录了我们怎样用扫描仪的。
14:56
(Laughter)
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(笑声)
14:59
(Video) CL: We're here with Emmanuel.
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(视频) CL: 我们和伊曼纽尔Emmanuel在一起。
15:01
CL: That was recorded in the scanner, by the way.
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CL：顺便提一句， 这是从扫描仪里记录的。
15:03
(Video) CL: That's Emmanuel in the scanner.
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(视频) CL: 这是伊曼纽尔Emmanuel 在扫描仪中的视频。
15:06
He's just memorized a rhyme for us.
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他仅记住了一段韵律。
15:12
Emmanuel: ♫ Top of the beat with no repeat ♫
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伊曼纽尔Emmanuel: ♫ 最棒的动感说唱不需要重复Top of the beat with no repeat ♫
15:15
♫ Rhythm and rhyme make me complete ♫
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♫ 节奏和韵律使我能完美地说唱Rhythm and rhyme make me complete ♫
15:18
♫ Climb is sublime when I'm on the mic ♫
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♫ 当我即兴说唱时，我就如同攀登上了高峰一样兴奋Climb is sublime when I'm on the mic ♫
15:21
♫ Spittin' rhymes that'll hit you like a lightning strike ♫
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♫ 这押韵的即兴表演就如同你被雷击一样Spittin' rhymes that'll hit you like a lightning strike ♫
15:23
♫ I search for the truth in this eternal quest ♫
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♫ 我在这永恒追寻中寻求真理I search for the truth in this eternal quest ♫
15:26
♫ I'm passing on fashion; you can see how I'm dressed ♫
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♫ 我的激情可不等同于我的时尚，大家可能看出我不怎么打扮I'm passing on fashion; you can see how I'm dressed ♫
15:29
CL: Okay. So I'm going to stop that there. So what do we see in his brain?
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CL:好的， 就在这里结束吧。你们看见他的大脑发生了什么呢？
15:32
Well, this is actually four rappers' brains.
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这其实是四个说唱家的大脑记录。
15:34
And what we see, we do see language areas lighting up,
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我们看见了什么？我们看见了语言部分很活跃，
15:36
but then -- eyes closed --
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但是当他们闭了眼睛，
15:38
when you are free-styling versus memorizing,
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自由式发挥而不是单纯记忆时，
15:41
you've got major visual areas lighting up.
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你看见视觉区域也活跃起来。
15:43
You've got major cerebellar activity, which is involved in motor coordination.
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你看见大量协调运动的小脑活动。
15:46
You have heightened brain activity when you're doing a comparable task,
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如果将有创造性的活动和单纯记忆的活动来比较
15:49
when that one task is creative and the other task is memorized.
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大脑活动在做创造性活动时更为活跃。
15:53
It's very preliminary, but I think it's kind of cool.
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这还是很初步的研究， 但是我觉得很酷。
15:55
So just to conclude, we've got a lot of questions to ask,
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总之，我们还有很多问题可以引申。
15:58
and like I said, we'll ask questions here, not answer them.
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正如我说的， 我们到这里来是提出问题的， 而不是回答问题的。
16:01
But we want to get at the root of what is creative genius, neurologically,
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但是我们想从神经学的角度来了解创造天才的真相。
16:04
and I think, with these methods, we're getting close to being there.
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我认为， 用这些手法，我们跟目标更接近了。
16:07
And I think hopefully in the next 10, 20 years
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我希望在今后的10，20年间，
16:09
you'll actually see real, meaningful studies
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你会看见真正有意义的研究，
16:11
that say science has to catch up to art,
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它是说科学要追赶上艺术，
16:15
and maybe we're starting now to get there.
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也许我们可以从现在开始追赶这个目标。
16:17
And so I want to thank you for your time. I appreciate it.
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谢谢你们费时听我的演讲，我很感激。
16:19
(Applause)
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(鼓掌)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Charles Limb - ResearcherCharles Limb is a doctor and a musician who researches the way musical creativity works in the brain.
Why you should listen
Charles Limb is the Francis A. Sooy, MD Professor and Chief of Otology/Neurotology and Skull Base Surgery at the University of California, San Francisco, and he's a Faculty Member at the Peabody Conservatory of Music. He combines his two passions to study the way the brain creates and perceives music. He's a hearing specialist and surgeon at Johns Hopkins who performs cochlear implantations on patients who have lost their hearing. And he plays sax, piano and bass.
In search of a better understanding of how the mind perceives complex auditory stimuli such as music, he's been working with Allen Braun to look at the brains of improvising musicians and study what parts of the brain are involved in the kind of deep creativity that happens when a musician is really in the groove.
Read our Q&A about hip-hop studies with Charles Limb on the TED Blog >>
Plus our quick catchup Q&A at TEDMED 2011 -- including his top 5 songs of all time >>
Read the 2014 paper "Neural Substrates of Interactive Musical Improvisation: An fMRI Study of ‘Trading Fours’ in Jazz" >>
Charles Limb | Speaker | TED.com