TEDxMidAtlantic
Charles Limb: Your brain on improv
Charles Limb: Creierul tau improvizand
Filmed:
Readability: 4.4
1,351,678 views
Muzicianul si cercetatorul Charles Limb s-a intrebat cum functioneaza creierul in timpul improvizatiei muzicale -- asa ca a pus cantareti Jazz si rapperi intr-un RMN pentru a afla. Ceea ce a aflat el si echipa sa are implicatii adanci in intelegerea creativitatii de toate tipurile.
Charles Limb - Researcher
Charles Limb is a doctor and a musician who researches the way musical creativity works in the brain. Full bio
Charles Limb is a doctor and a musician who researches the way musical creativity works in the brain. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:15
So I am a surgeon who studies creativity,
0
0
3000
Sunt un chirurg care studiaza creativitatea
00:18
and I have never had a patient tell me
1
3000
3000
dar n-am avut niciodata un pacient care sa-mi spuna
00:21
that "I really want you to be creative during surgery,"
2
6000
3000
"Doresc sa fii creativ in timpul operatiei."
00:24
and so I guess there's a little bit of irony to it.
3
9000
3000
Cred ca-i o doza de ironie in asta.
00:27
I will say though that, after having done surgery a lot,
4
12000
3000
Dupa multe operatii, as putea spune
00:30
it's somewhat similar to playing a musical instrument.
5
15000
2000
ca se aseamana cu cantatul la un instrument.
00:32
And for me, this sort of deep and enduring fascination with sound
6
17000
3000
Iar pentru mine, aceasta fascinatie profunda si de durata pentru sunet
00:35
is what led me to both be a surgeon
7
20000
2000
este cea ce m-a condus la a deveni chirurg
00:37
and also to study the science of sound, particularly music.
8
22000
2000
dar si la studiul stiintei sunetului, in special muzica.
00:39
And so I'm going to try to talk to you over the next few minutes
9
24000
2000
Asa ca voi incerca sa va vorbesc in urmatoarele minute
00:41
about my career
10
26000
2000
despre cariera mea
00:43
in terms of how I'm able to actually try to study music
11
28000
2000
si cum incerc de fapt sa studiez muzica
00:45
and really try to grapple with all these questions
12
30000
2000
si sa ma lupt cu aceste intrebari
00:47
of how the brain is able to be creative.
13
32000
3000
despre cum e capabil creierul sa fie creativ.
00:50
I've done most of this work at Johns Hopkins University,
14
35000
2000
Majoritatea acestui studiu l-am facut la universitatea Johns Hopkins.
00:52
but also at the National Institute of Health where I was previously.
15
37000
2000
si la Institutul National de Sanatate unde am lucrat inainte.
00:54
I'm going to go over some science experiments
16
39000
2000
Voi prezenta cateva experimente stiintifice
00:56
and try to cover three musical experiments.
17
41000
2000
si voi incerca sa expun trei experimente muzicale.
00:58
I'm going to start off by playing a video for you.
18
43000
2000
Voi incepe prin a rula un video.
01:00
And this video is a video of Keith Jarrett, who's a well-known jazz improviser
19
45000
3000
E un clip cu Keith Jarret, un bine cunoscut improvizator de muzica jazz,
01:03
and probably the most well-known, iconic example
20
48000
3000
probabil cel mai bine cunoscut exemplu iconic
01:06
of someone who takes improvisation to a really higher level.
21
51000
2000
al cuiva care duce improvizatia la un nivel superior.
01:08
And he'll improvise entire concerts
22
53000
2000
El va improviza concerte intregi
01:10
off the top of his head,
23
55000
2000
din mintea lui
01:12
and he'll never play it exactly the same way again,
24
57000
2000
si niciodata nu le va interpreta in acelasi fel.
01:14
and so, as a form of intense creativity,
25
59000
2000
Pentru o forma de creativitate intensa
01:16
I think this is a great example.
26
61000
2000
cred ca acesta e un exemplu excelent.
01:18
And so why don't we go and click the video.
27
63000
2000
Sa pornim clipul.
01:21
(Music)
28
66000
4000
(Muzica)
02:17
It's really a remarkable, awesome thing that happens there.
29
122000
3000
E remarcabil, minunat ce se petrece acolo.
02:20
I've always -- just as a listener, as just a fan --
30
125000
2000
Dintotdeauna -- doar ca ascultator, ca fan --
02:22
I listen to that, and I'm just astounded.
31
127000
2000
ascult si sunt efectiv uimit.
02:24
I think -- how can this possibly be?
32
129000
2000
Ma intreb: cum poate fi posibil?
02:26
How can the brain generate that much information,
33
131000
2000
Cum poate creierul sa genereze spontan
02:28
that much music, spontaneously?
34
133000
2000
atat de multa informatie, atat de multa muzica?
02:30
And so I set out with this concept, scientifically,
35
135000
3000
Asadar am pornit de la acest concept stiintific:
02:33
that artistic creativity, it's magical, but it's not magic,
36
138000
3000
creativitatea artistica e magica dar nu magie,
02:36
meaning that it's a product of the brain.
37
141000
2000
adica e un produs al creierului.
02:38
There's not too many brain-dead people creating art.
38
143000
3000
Nu exista multi oameni in coma care sa creeze arta.
02:41
And so with this notion that artistic creativity
39
146000
2000
Deci cu aceasta notiune a creativitatii artistice
02:43
is in fact a neurologic product,
40
148000
2000
fiind de fapt un produs neurologic,
02:45
I took this thesis that we could study it
41
150000
3000
am pornit la studiul acestei teze
02:48
just like we study any other complex neurologic process.
42
153000
3000
exact la fel cum studiem orice alt proces neurologic complex.
02:51
And I think there's some sub-questions there that I put there.
43
156000
2000
Cred ca mi-am pus niste intrebari mai nuantate.
02:53
Is it truly possible to study creativity scientifically?
44
158000
2000
Chiar e posibila studierea stiintifica a creativitatii?
02:55
And I think that's a good question.
45
160000
2000
Cred ca asta-i o intrebare buna.
02:57
And I'll tell you that most scientific studies of music,
46
162000
3000
Cele mai multe studii stiintifice despre muzica
03:00
they're very dense,
47
165000
2000
sunt foarte complicate.
03:02
and when you actually go through them, it's very hard to recognize the music in it.
48
167000
3000
In aceste studii, e greu sa recunosti muzica din ele.
03:05
In fact, they seem to be very unmusical entirely
49
170000
2000
De fapt, par in intregime non-muzicale
03:07
and to miss the whole point of the music.
50
172000
2000
fiind greu sa discerni ce-i determinat strict de muzica.
03:09
And so it brings the second question:
51
174000
2000
Astfel, apare a doua intrebare:
03:11
Why should scientists study creativity?
52
176000
2000
De ce ar trebui oamenii de stiinta sa studieze creativitatea?
03:13
Maybe we're not the right people to do it.
53
178000
2000
Poate nu suntem oamenii potriviti sa facem asta.
03:15
Well it may be,
54
180000
2000
Posibil,
03:17
but I will say that, from a scientific perspective --
55
182000
2000
dar voi spune ca, dintr-o perspectiva stiintifica --
03:19
we talked a lot about innovation today --
56
184000
2000
am vorbit azi foarte mult despre inovatie --
03:21
the science of innovation,
57
186000
2000
stiinta inovatiei.
03:23
how much we understand about how the brain is able to innovate
58
188000
2000
Studiul despre cum poate creierul sa inventeze
03:25
is in its infancy,
59
190000
2000
se afla doar la inceput.
03:27
and truly, we know very little about how we are able to be creative.
60
192000
3000
Intr-adevar stim foarte putin despre cum putem fi creativi.
03:30
And so I think that we're going to see
61
195000
2000
Cred ca vom vedea
03:32
over the next 10, 20, 30 years
62
197000
2000
in urmatorii 10, 20, 30 de ani
03:34
a real science of creativity that's burgeoning and is going to flourish.
63
199000
3000
o adevarata stiinta a creativitatii care va inmuguri si va inflori.
03:37
Because we now have new methods that can enable us
64
202000
2000
Pentru ca avem acum metode noi care ne permit
03:39
to take this process of something like this,
65
204000
2000
sa luam un astfel de proces complex,
03:41
complex jazz improvisation, and study it rigorously.
66
206000
2000
ca improvizatia muzicii de jazz, si sa o studiem riguros .
03:43
And so it gets down to the brain.
67
208000
2000
Deci se ajunge la creier.
03:45
And so all of us have this remarkable brain,
68
210000
2000
Toti avem acest creier remarcabil,
03:47
which is poorly understood to say the least.
69
212000
3000
care-i insa foarte putin inteles.
03:50
I think that neuroscientists
70
215000
2000
Cred ca neurologii
03:52
have many more questions than answers,
71
217000
2000
au mai multe intrebari decat raspunsuri.
03:54
and I myself, I'm not going to give you many answers today,
72
219000
2000
Si nici eu nu voi da multe raspunsuri astazi,
03:56
just ask a lot of questions.
73
221000
2000
ci doar voi pune multe intrebari.
03:58
And fundamentally that's what I do in my lab.
74
223000
2000
In esenta, asta-i ce fac eu in laborator.
04:00
I ask questions about what is this brain doing to enable us to do this.
75
225000
2000
Pun intrebari despre ce face creierul sa ne permita creativitatea.
04:02
This is the main method that I use. This is called functional MRI.
76
227000
3000
Asta-i metoda de baza pe care o folosesc. Se numeste RMN functional.
04:05
If you've been in an MRI scanner, it's very much the same,
77
230000
3000
Daca ati fost intr-un scaner RMN, e foarte asemanator,
04:08
but this one is outfitted in a special way
78
233000
2000
dar acesta este echipat intr-un mod special
04:10
to not just take pictures of your brain,
79
235000
2000
nu doar pentru a fotografia creierul,
04:12
but to also take pictures of active areas of the brain.
80
237000
3000
ci, totodata, zone active din creier.
04:15
Now the way that's done is by the following.
81
240000
2000
Se procedeaza in felul urmator.
04:17
There's something called BOLD imaging,
82
242000
2000
Exista ceva numit inregistrare BOLD,
04:19
which is Blood Oxygen Level Dependent imaging.
83
244000
2000
adica inregistrarea nivelului de oxigen din sange.
04:21
Now when you're in an fMRI scanner,
84
246000
2000
Cand te afli intr-un aparat fRMN,
04:23
you're in a big magnet
85
248000
2000
te afli in interiorul unui magnet imens
04:25
that's aligning your molecules in certain areas.
86
250000
2000
care iti aliniaza moleculele in anumite zone.
04:27
When an area of the brain is active, meaning a neural area is active,
87
252000
3000
Cand o zona a creierului e activa, adica o zona neurala e activa,
04:30
it gets blood flow shunted to that area.
88
255000
3000
aceasta primeste un flux de sange.
04:33
That blood flow causes an increase
89
258000
2000
Fluxul de sange suplimentar cauzeaza o intensificare
04:35
in local blood to that area
90
260000
2000
a volumului de sange din acea zona
04:37
with a deoxyhemoglobin change in concentration.
91
262000
3000
cu o schimbare a concentratiei de 2-oxihemoglobina.
04:40
Deoxyhemoglobin can be detected by MRI,
92
265000
2000
2-oxihemoglobina poate fi detectata de RMN,
04:42
whereas oxyhemoglobin can't.
93
267000
2000
in timp ce oxihemoglobina nu poate.
04:44
So through this method of inference --
94
269000
2000
Prin aceasta metoda de deductie --
04:46
and we're measuring blood flow, not neural activity --
95
271000
2000
masuram circulatia sangelui, nu activitatea neurala --
04:48
we say that an area of the brain that's getting more blood
96
273000
2000
spunem ca o zona a creierului care primeste mai mult sange
04:50
was active during a particular task,
97
275000
2000
a fost activa in timpul acelui proces.
04:52
and that's the crux of how fMRI works.
98
277000
2000
Si asta-i esenta functionarii fRMN-ului.
04:54
And it's been used since the '90s
99
279000
2000
E folosita din anii '90
04:56
to study really complex processes.
100
281000
3000
pentru a studia procese complexe.
04:59
Now I'm going to review a study that I did,
101
284000
2000
Acum voi expune un studiu pe care l-am facut
05:01
which was jazz in an fMRI scanner.
102
286000
2000
constand in interpretarea de muzica Jazz intr-un scaner fRMN.
05:03
And this was done with a colleague of mine, Alan Braun, at the NIH.
103
288000
2000
Am facut acest studiu impreuna cu colegul meu, Alan Braun, la institutul NIH.
05:05
This is a short video of how we did this project.
104
290000
3000
Asta e un scurt clip ilustrand cum am facut acest proiect.
05:08
(Video) Charles Limb: This is a plastic MIDI piano keyboard
105
293000
2000
(Video) Charles Limb: Asta e o claviatura de plastic MIDI
05:10
that we use for the jazz experiments.
106
295000
2000
pe care o folosim pentru experimentele de jazz.
05:12
And it's a 35-key keyboard
107
297000
2000
E o claviatura cu 35 de clape
05:14
that is designed to fit both inside the scanner,
108
299000
2000
conceputa sa se potriveasca in scanerul RMN,
05:16
be magnetically safe,
109
301000
2000
neafectata magnetic,
05:18
have minimal interference
110
303000
2000
cu interferente minime
05:20
that would contribute to any artifact
111
305000
2000
care sa nu modifice rezultatul
05:22
and have this cushion so that it can rest on the players' legs
112
307000
3000
si aceasta perinita pentru a fi sprijinita pe picioarele interpretului
05:25
while they're lying down in the scanner, playing on their back.
113
310000
3000
in timp ce sta pe spate si interpreteaza in interiorul RMN-ului.
05:28
And it works like this -- this doesn't actually produce any sound.
114
313000
3000
Functioneaza astfel -- asta nu produce nici un sunet.
05:31
It sends out what's called a MIDI signal --
115
316000
2000
Transmite ce se numeste un semnal MIDI --
05:33
or a Musical Instrument Digital Interface --
116
318000
2000
adica interfata digitala de instrument muzical --
05:35
through these wires into the box and then the computer,
117
320000
3000
prin aceste cabluri in cutie si apoi in calculator,
05:38
which then trigger high-quality piano samples like this.
118
323000
3000
producand apoi sunete de pian de inalta calitate.
05:41
(Music)
119
326000
3000
(Muzica)
05:47
(Music)
120
332000
20000
(Muzica)
06:09
CL: Okay, so it works.
121
354000
2000
CL: Bun, deci functioneaza.
06:11
And so through this piano keyboard,
122
356000
2000
Si cu aceasta claviatura de pian,
06:13
we now have the means to take a musical process and study it.
123
358000
2000
avem acum mijloacele pentru a studia un proces muzical.
06:15
So what do you do now that you have this cool piano keyboard?
124
360000
3000
Deci ce faci acum cu aceasta claviatura faina?
06:18
You can't just sort of -- "It's great we've got this keyboard."
125
363000
2000
Nu poti doar sa spui: "Ce tare ca avem aceasta claviatura."
06:20
We actually have to come up with a scientific experiment.
126
365000
2000
Trebuie sa concepem un experiment stiintific.
06:22
And so the experiment really rests on the following:
127
367000
3000
Deci experimentul consta in urmatoarele:
06:26
What happens in the brain during something that's memorized and over-learned,
128
371000
3000
Ce se petrece in creier in timpul redarii a ceva memorat, stiut pe dinafara,
06:29
and what happens in the brain during something
129
374000
2000
si ce se intampla in creier atunci cand ceva
06:31
that is spontaneously generated, or improvised,
130
376000
2000
e generat sau improvizat spontan
06:33
in a way that's matched motorically
131
378000
2000
producand reactii motrice similare,
06:35
and in terms of lower-level sensory motor features?
132
380000
3000
privind prin prisma functiilor sensoriale motrice?
06:38
And so, I have here what we call the "paradigms."
133
383000
3000
Asadar, am aici ceea ce numim paradigme.
06:41
There's a scale paradigm, which is just playing a scale up and down, memorized.
134
386000
3000
Un exemplu de gama memorata, canta gama in sus si-n jos.
06:44
And then there's improvising on a scale --
135
389000
2000
Apoi improvizarea pe gama --
06:46
quarter notes, metronome, right hand --
136
391000
2000
patrimile de nota, metronomul, mana dreapta --
06:48
scientifically very safe,
137
393000
2000
stiintific e foarte corect,
06:50
but musically really boring.
138
395000
2000
dar muzical e foarte plictisitor.
06:52
And then there's the bottom one, which is called the jazz paradigm.
139
397000
2000
Si apoi, cea de jos, numita "paradigma jazz".
06:54
And so what we did was we brought professional jazz players to the NIH,
140
399000
2000
Deci am adus cantareti profesionisti de jazz la NIH
06:56
and we had them memorize this piece of music on the left, the lower-left --
141
401000
3000
pe care i-am pus sa memoreze aceasta piesa muzicala din stanga-jos,
06:59
which is what you heard me playing --
142
404000
2000
-- chiar ce am interpretat eu --
07:01
and then we had them improvise to the same exact chord changes.
143
406000
3000
si apoi i-am pus sa improvizeze in aceiasi gama.
07:04
And if you can hit that lower-right sound icon,
144
409000
2000
Daca apasati pe simbolul de sunet din dreapta-jos,
07:06
that's an example of what was recorded in the scanner.
145
411000
2000
asta e un exemplu de inregistrare din scaner.
07:08
(Music)
146
413000
5000
(Muzica)
07:36
So in the end, it's not the most natural environment,
147
441000
2000
In fine, nu-i cel mai natural mediu
07:38
but they're able to play real music.
148
443000
2000
dar pot canta la instrument realmente.
07:40
And I've listened to that solo 200 times,
149
445000
2000
Am ascultat acel solo de 200 ori
07:42
and I still like it.
150
447000
2000
si inca imi place.
07:44
And the musicians, they were comfortable in the end.
151
449000
2000
Muzicienii s-au simtit in largul lor pana la urma.
07:46
And so we first measured the number of notes.
152
451000
2000
Am masurat prima data numarul notelor.
07:48
Were they in fact just playing a lot more notes when they were improvising?
153
453000
2000
Cantau doar mai multe note cand improvizau?
07:50
That was not what was going on.
154
455000
2000
Nu era asta.
07:52
And then we looked at the brain activity.
155
457000
2000
Ne-am uitat apoi la activitatea cerebrala.
07:54
I'm going to try to condense this for you.
156
459000
2000
Voi incerca sa rezum.
07:56
These are contrast maps that are showing subtractions
157
461000
3000
Astea sunt reprezentari de contrast care arata diferenta
07:59
between what changes when you're improvising
158
464000
2000
intre ceea ce se schimba cand improvizezi
08:01
versus when you're doing something memorized.
159
466000
2000
comparativ cu interpretarea memorata.
08:03
In red is an area that active in the prefrontal cortex,
160
468000
2000
In rosu e zona activa din cortexul prefrontal,
08:05
the frontal lobe of the brain,
161
470000
2000
lobul frontal.
08:07
and in blue is this area that was deactivated.
162
472000
2000
Iar in albastru e zona inactiva.
08:09
And so we had this focal area called the medial prefrontal cortex
163
474000
2000
Am observat ca aceasta zona numita
08:11
that went way up in activity.
164
476000
2000
cortex prefrontal s-a activat intens.
08:13
We had this broad patch of area called the lateral prefrontal cortex
165
478000
3000
Iar aceasta suprafata mare numita cortex prefrontal lateral
08:16
that went way down in activity, and I'll summarize that for you here.
166
481000
3000
a inregistrat o mare scadere in activitate; voi rezuma aici.
08:19
Now these are multifunctional areas of the brain.
167
484000
2000
Astea sunt zone multifunctionale ale creierului.
08:21
As I like to say, these are not the "jazz areas" of the brain.
168
486000
3000
Nu sunt "zonele jazz" ale creierului.
08:24
They do a whole host of things
169
489000
2000
Ele fac o multime de lucruri
08:26
that have to do with self-reflection,
170
491000
2000
legate de relfexie,
08:28
introspection, working memory and so forth.
171
493000
2000
introspectie, memorie activa, etc.
08:30
Really, consciousness is seated in the frontal lobe.
172
495000
3000
De fapt, constiinta e situata in lobul frontal.
08:33
But we have this combination
173
498000
2000
Dar aveam aceasta combinatie
08:35
of an area that's thought to be involved in self-monitoring, turning off,
174
500000
3000
a unei suprafete ce-i implicata in controlul de sine, focalizandu-se spre interior,
08:38
and this area that's thought to be autobiographical,
175
503000
2000
si aceasta suprafata despre care se crede a fi autobiografica,
08:40
or self-expressive, turning on.
176
505000
2000
sau exprexiva, focalizandu-se spre exterior.
08:42
And we think, at least in this preliminary --
177
507000
2000
Si credem, cel putin preliminar --
08:44
it's one study; it's probably wrong,
178
509000
2000
E doar un singur studiu. Probabil e gresit.
08:46
but it's one study --
179
511000
2000
Dar e un studiu.
08:48
we think that at least a reasonable hypothesis
180
513000
3000
Credem, cel putin ca ipoteza rezonabila
08:51
is that, to be creative,
181
516000
2000
ca pentru a fi creativ
08:53
you have to have this weird dissociation in your frontal lobe.
182
518000
2000
trebuie sa ai aceasta disociere ciudata in lobul frontal.
08:55
One area turns on, and a big area shuts off,
183
520000
2000
O zona se deschide, o zona mare se inchide,
08:57
so that you're not inhibited, so that you're willing to make mistakes,
184
522000
3000
asa ca nu esti inhibat, esti dispus sa faci greseli,
09:00
so that you're not constantly shutting down
185
525000
2000
ca sa nu blochezi mereu
09:02
all of these new generative impulses.
186
527000
3000
toate aceste noi impulsuri generate.
09:05
Now a lot of people know that music is not always a solo activity --
187
530000
3000
Stim ca muzica nu e intotdeauna o activitate solo --
09:08
sometimes it's done communicatively.
188
533000
2000
cateodata e creata comunicand.
09:10
And so the next question was:
189
535000
2000
Asa ca urmatoarea intrebare a fost:
09:12
What happens when musicians are trading back and forth,
190
537000
2000
Ce se intampla cand muzicienii canta simultan,
09:14
something called "trading fours,"
191
539000
2000
ceva numit "trading fours" [alterneaza tot la 4 masuri],
09:16
which is something they do normally in a jazz experiment?
192
541000
2000
ceva normal intr-un experiment jazz.
09:18
So this is a twelve-bar blues.
193
543000
2000
Astea sunt 12 masuri dintr-un blues.
09:20
And I've broken it down into four-bar groups here,
194
545000
2000
Le-am despartit in grupe de 4 masuri,
09:22
so you would know how you would trade.
195
547000
2000
ca sa intelegeti cum se face schimbul.
09:24
Now what we did was we brought a musician into the scanner -- same way --
196
549000
2000
Am adus un muzician in scanerul RMN -- la fel --
09:26
had them memorize this melody
197
551000
2000
l-am pus sa memoreze aceasta melodie,
09:28
and then had another musician out in the control room
198
553000
2000
apoi in camera de control am avut un alt muzician
09:30
trading back and forth interactively.
199
555000
3000
comunicand muzical interactiv.
09:33
So this is a musician, Mike Pope,
200
558000
2000
Acesta e muzicianul Mike Pope,
09:35
one of the world's best bassists and a fantastic piano player.
201
560000
3000
unul din cei mai buni basisti din lume si un pianist fantastic.
09:43
So he's now playing the piece
202
568000
2000
Acum el interpreteaza o piesa
09:45
that we just saw
203
570000
2000
pe care tocmai am vazut-o
09:47
just a little better than I wrote it.
204
572000
2000
dar mai bine decat mine.
09:49
(Video) CL: Mike, come on in. Mike Pope: May the force be with you.
205
574000
2000
(Clip) CL: Intra, Mike.
09:51
Nurse: Nothing's in your pockets, right Mike?
206
576000
2000
Asistenta: Nimic in buzunare, Mike?
09:53
MP: Nope. Nothing's in my pockets. Nurse: Okay.
207
578000
3000
Mike Pope: Nu. Nimic in buzunare. >>Asistenta: OK.
10:05
CL: You have to have the right attitude to agree to it.
208
590000
2000
CL: Trebuie sa ai atitudine pozitiva sa fi de acord cu asta.
10:07
(Laughter)
209
592000
2000
(Rasete)
10:09
It's kind of fun actually.
210
594000
2000
E chiar distractiv de fapt.
10:11
And so now we're playing back and forth.
211
596000
3000
Deci acum cantam interactiv.
10:14
He's in there. You can see his legs up there.
212
599000
3000
El e inauntru. Ii vedeti picioarele.
10:18
And then I'm in the control room here, playing back and forth.
213
603000
3000
Iar eu aici in camera de control, cantand simultan.
10:21
(Music)
214
606000
3000
(Muzica)
10:33
(Video) Mike Pope: This is a pretty good representation
215
618000
3000
(Clip) Mike Pope: Asta-i o reprezentare chiar buna
10:36
of what it's like.
216
621000
2000
a ceea ce se intampla in realitate.
10:38
And it's good that it's not too quick.
217
623000
2000
Si e bine ca nu-i prea in graba.
10:40
The fact that we do it over and over again
218
625000
2000
Faptul ca facem odata si inca odata
10:42
lets you acclimate to your surroundings.
219
627000
3000
ma lasa sa ma acomodez cu imprejurimile.
10:46
So the hardest thing for me was the kinesthetic thing,
220
631000
3000
Cel mai complicat pentru mine a fost aspectul chinestezic
10:49
of looking at my hands
221
634000
2000
de a ma uita la maini
10:51
through two mirrors,
222
636000
2000
prin 2 oglinzi,
10:53
laying on my back
223
638000
2000
intins pe spate
10:55
and not able to move at all except for my hand.
224
640000
2000
si neputandu-ma misca deloc, exceptand mainile.
10:57
That was challenging.
225
642000
2000
Asta a fost o incercare.
10:59
But again,
226
644000
2000
Dar cu siguranta,
11:01
there were moments, for sure,
227
646000
3000
au fost momente,
11:04
there were moments
228
649000
2000
sincer,
11:06
of real, honest-to-God musical interplay, for sure.
229
651000
4000
momente reale de interactiune muzicala, cu siguranta.
11:10
CL: At this point, I'll take a few moments.
230
655000
2000
CL: OK, acum voi lua cateva momente.
11:12
And so what you're seeing here --
231
657000
2000
Asadar ceea ce vedeti aici --
11:14
and I'm doing a cardinal sin in science,
232
659000
2000
Si cu asta fac un pacat principial in stiinta,
11:16
which is to show you preliminary data.
233
661000
2000
aratandu-va date prelimarii.
11:18
This is one subject's data.
234
663000
2000
Acestea sunt datele unui subiect.
11:20
This is, in fact, Mike Pope's data.
235
665000
2000
Acestea sunt, de fapt, datele lui Mike Pope.
11:22
So what am I showing you here?
236
667000
2000
Asadar ce va arat aici?
11:24
When he was trading fours with me, improvising versus memorized,
237
669000
3000
Cand el canta interactiv cu mine, improvizand, nu din memorie,
11:27
his language areas lit up, his Broca's area,
238
672000
3000
suprafata ce tine de vorbire s-a aprins, suprafata Broca,
11:30
which is inferior frontal gyrus on the left.
239
675000
2000
care e girusul frontal inferior din stanga.
11:32
He actually had it also homologous on the right.
240
677000
2000
De fapt s-a aprins si omologul acestuia din dreapta.
11:34
This is an area thought to be involved in expressive communication.
241
679000
3000
Asta e suprafata presupusa a fi implicata in comunicarea expresiva.
11:37
This whole notion that music is a language --
242
682000
2000
Aceasta intreaga notiune ca muzica e un limbaj,
11:39
well maybe there's a neurologic basis to it in fact after all,
243
684000
3000
poate are o baza neurologica de fapt,
11:42
and we can see it when two musicians are having a musical conversation.
244
687000
3000
si o vedem atunci cand doi muzicieni comunica muzical.
11:45
And so we've done this actually on eight subjects now,
245
690000
2000
Am facut acest studiu pe 8 indivizi pana acum,
11:47
and we're just getting all the data together,
246
692000
2000
si abia organizam toate datele.
11:49
so hopefully we'll have something to say about it meaningfully.
247
694000
2000
Deci speram ca vom concluziona ceva semnificativ.
11:51
Now when I think about improvisation and the language, well what's next?
248
696000
3000
Considerand acum legatura improvizatie-limbaj, ce urmeaza?
11:54
Rap, of course, rap --
249
699000
2000
Muzica rap, bineinteles, rap --
11:56
free-style.
250
701000
2000
free-style [stilul-liber].
11:58
And so I've always been fascinated by free-style.
251
703000
2000
Am fost intotdeauna fascinat de free-style.
12:00
And let's go ahead and play this video here.
252
705000
2000
Asa ca haideti sa rulam aceasta inregistrare.
12:02
(Video) Mos Def: ♫ ... brown skin I be, standing five-ten I be ♫
253
707000
2000
(Clip) Mos Def: ♫ Am pielea neagra, sunt inalt de 1.80 ♫
12:04
♫ Rockin' it when I be, in your vicinity ♫
254
709000
3000
♫ Facandu-mi de cap cand sunt in preajma ta ♫
12:07
♫ Whole-style synergy, recognize symmetry ♫
255
712000
2000
♫ Sinergie plina de stil, recunoaste simetria ♫
12:09
♫ Go and try to injure me, broke 'em down chemically ♫
256
714000
3000
♫ Incearca, raneste-ma, dizolva-ma chimic ♫
12:12
♫ Ain't the number 10 MC, talk about how been I be ♫
257
717000
2000
♫ Nu sunt al 10-lea M.C, vorbind despre ce am fost ♫
12:14
♫ Styled it like Kennedy, late like a 10 to three ♫
258
719000
3000
♫ Stilat ca un Kennedy, cum e 10 dupa 3 ♫
12:17
♫ When I say when I be, girls say bend that key cut ♫
259
722000
3000
♫ Cand spun unde-oi fi, fetele zic indoaie cheile ♫
12:20
CL: And so there's a lot of analogy
260
725000
2000
CL: Asadar observam o intreaga analogie
12:22
between what takes place in free-style rap and jazz.
261
727000
2000
intre ce se petrece in rap si in jazz.
12:24
There are, in fact, a lot of correlations between the two forms of music
262
729000
2000
Sunt chiar multe corelari intre cele 2 tipuri de muzica
12:26
I think in different time periods.
263
731000
2000
desi apartin in doua epoci diferite.
12:28
In a lot a ways, rap serves the same social function
264
733000
2000
In multe feluri, rap-ul deserveste aceleasi functii sociale
12:30
that jazz used to serve.
265
735000
2000
pe care muzica jazz le servea.
12:32
So how do you study rap scientifically?
266
737000
2000
Deci cum studiezi stiintific muzica rap?
12:34
And my colleagues kind of think I'm crazy,
267
739000
2000
Colegii mei ma cam cred nebun.
12:36
but I think it's very viable.
268
741000
2000
dar eu cred ca-i foarte viabil.
12:38
And so this is what you do: you have a free-style artist
269
743000
2000
Deci asta-i ce faci: aduci un artist de free-style
12:40
come in and memorize a rap that you write for them,
270
745000
2000
il pui sa memoreze o melodie rap pe care o scrii tu pentru ei,
12:42
that they've never heard before,
271
747000
2000
pe care n-au mai auzit-o niciodata,
12:44
and then you have them free-style.
272
749000
2000
iar apoi îi pui sa cante free-style.
12:46
So I told my lab members that I would rap for TED,
273
751000
2000
Asadar le-am spus colegilor de laborator ca voi canta rap pentru TED,
12:48
and they said, "No, you won't."
274
753000
2000
iar ei au spus, "Nu, nu vei face asta."
12:50
And then I thought --
275
755000
2000
Iar apoi m-am gandit --
12:52
(Applause)
276
757000
6000
(Aplauze)
12:58
But here's the thing.
277
763000
2000
Uite cum sta treaba.
13:00
With this big screen, you can all rap with me. Okay?
278
765000
3000
Cu acest ecran imens, puteti toti canta rap cu mine. Bine?
13:03
So what we had them do
279
768000
2000
Asa ca le-am cerut
13:05
was memorize this lower-left sound icon, please.
280
770000
2000
sa memoreze de la acest buton de sunet din stanga jos.
13:07
This is the control condition. This is what they memorized.
281
772000
3000
Asta-i partea controlata. Asta au memorat.
13:10
Computer: ♫ Memory, thump. ♫
282
775000
2000
Calculator: ♫ Memorie, ridica volumul. ♫
13:12
CL: ♫ Thump of the beat in a known repeat ♫
283
777000
3000
CL: ♫ Ridica volumul repetat ♫
13:15
♫ Rhythm and rhyme, they make me complete ♫
284
780000
3000
♫ Ritmul si rima, ma completeaza ♫
13:18
♫ The climb is sublime when I'm on the mic ♫
285
783000
2000
♫ Ascensiunea-i sublima cand sunt la microfon ♫
13:20
♫ Spittin' rhymes that hit you like a lightning strike ♫
286
785000
3000
♫ Aruncand rime care te lovesc ca un fulger ♫
13:23
♫ I search for the truth in this eternal quest ♫
287
788000
2000
♫ Caut adevarul in aceasta misiune eterna ♫
13:25
♫ My passion's not fashion, you can see how I'm dressed ♫
288
790000
3000
♫ Pasiunea mea nu-i moda, uite cum sunt imbracat ♫
13:28
♫ Psychopathic words in my head appear ♫
289
793000
3000
♫ Cuvinte psihopate, in capul meu apar ♫
13:31
♫ Whisper these lyrics only I can hear ♫
290
796000
3000
♫ Soptesc aceste versuri ca doar eu sa aud ♫
13:34
♫ The art of discovering and that which is hovering ♫
291
799000
2000
♫ Arta in descoperire si in plutire ♫
13:36
♫ Inside the mind of those unconfined ♫
292
801000
3000
♫ In mintea celor neinhibati ♫
13:39
♫ All of these words keep pouring out like rain ♫
293
804000
3000
♫ Si toate cuvintele astea tot curg ca ploaia♫
13:42
♫ I need a mad scientist to check my brain ♫
294
807000
3000
♫ Am nevoie de un medic nebun sa-mi verifice creierul ♫
13:45
(Applause)
295
810000
9000
(Aplauze)
13:54
I guarantee you that will never happen again.
296
819000
3000
Va garantez, asta nu se va mai intampla niciodata.
13:57
(Laughter)
297
822000
2000
(Rasete)
13:59
So now, what's great about these free-stylers,
298
824000
2000
Ce-i grozav la acesti free-style-eri,
14:01
they will get cued different words.
299
826000
2000
e ca prind din zbor cuvinte cheie.
14:03
They don't know what's coming, but they'll hear something off the cuff.
300
828000
2000
Ei nu stiu ce urmeaza, dar vor auzi ceva spontan
14:05
Go ahead and hit that right sound icon.
301
830000
2000
Da-i drumul, apasa pe butonul de sunet.
14:07
They are going to be cued these three square words: "like," "not" and "head."
302
832000
3000
Vor auzi aceste cuvine cheie: "like", "not" si "head".
14:10
He doesn't know what's coming.
303
835000
2000
El nu stie ce urmeaza.
14:12
Free-styler: ♫ I'm like some kind of [unclear] ♫
304
837000
2000
Free-style-er: ♫ Sunt intr-un fel de zbor ♫
14:14
♫ [unclear] extraterrestrial, celestial scene ♫
305
839000
3000
♫ pe bolta cereasca, in spatiu stelar ♫
14:17
♫ Back in the days, I used to sit in pyramids and meditate ♫
306
842000
3000
♫ Mai de mult, stateam in piramide si meditam ♫
14:20
♫ With two microphones hovering over my head ♫
307
845000
3000
♫ Cu 2 microfoane plutind peste cap ♫
14:23
♫ See if I could still listen, spittin' off the sound ♫
308
848000
3000
♫ De-oi mai putea asculta, scuipand sunete ♫
14:26
♫ See what you grinning ♫
309
851000
2000
♫ Vad ca te strambi ♫
14:28
♫ I teach the children in the back of the classroom ♫
310
853000
2000
♫ Predau elevilor in spatele clasei ♫
14:30
♫ About the message of apocalyptical ♫
311
855000
3000
♫ Mesajul apocaliptic ♫
14:33
♫ Not really though, 'cause I've got to keep it simple ♫
312
858000
3000
♫ Nu prea complicat, caci tre sa fie simplu ♫
14:36
♫ [unclear] instrumental ♫
313
861000
2000
♫ instrumental ♫
14:38
♫ Detrimental playing Super Mario ♫
314
863000
3000
♫ Joc periculos cu Super Mario ♫
14:41
♫ [unclear] boxes [unclear] hip hop ♫
315
866000
4000
♫ cu tobe si hip-hop ♫
14:45
CL: So again, it's an incredible thing that's taking place.
316
870000
2000
CL: Din nou, are loc un fenomen incredibil.
14:47
It's doing something that, neurologically, is remarkable.
317
872000
2000
Neurologic, el face ceva absolut remarcabil.
14:49
Whether or not you like the music is irrelevant.
318
874000
2000
Daca va place sau nu muzica este irelevant.
14:51
Creatively speaking, it's just a phenomenal thing.
319
876000
2000
Dar creativ vorbind, e un lucru fenomenal.
14:53
This is a short video of how we actually do this in a scanner.
320
878000
3000
Iata o scurta inregistrare despre cum adaptam asta in RMN .
14:56
(Laughter)
321
881000
3000
(Rasete)
14:59
(Video) CL: We're here with Emmanuel.
322
884000
2000
(Clip) CL: Suntem aici cu Emmanuel.
15:01
CL: That was recorded in the scanner, by the way.
323
886000
2000
Apropo, asta a fost inregistrat in scaner.
15:03
(Video) CL: That's Emmanuel in the scanner.
324
888000
2000
(Clip) CL: Acela-i Emmanuel in scanerul RMN.
15:06
He's just memorized a rhyme for us.
325
891000
3000
Tocmai a memorat o rima pentru noi.
15:12
Emmanuel: ♫ Top of the beat with no repeat ♫
326
897000
3000
♫ In fruntea masurilor fara repetare ♫
15:15
♫ Rhythm and rhyme make me complete ♫
327
900000
3000
♫ Ritmul si rima ma completeaza ♫
15:18
♫ Climb is sublime when I'm on the mic ♫
328
903000
3000
♫ Ascensiunea e usoara cand sunt la microfon "
15:21
♫ Spittin' rhymes that'll hit you like a lightning strike ♫
329
906000
2000
♫ Scuipand rime ce lovesc ca un fulger ♫
15:23
♫ I search for the truth in this eternal quest ♫
330
908000
3000
♫ Caut un adevar in aceasta misiune ♫
15:26
♫ I'm passing on fashion; you can see how I'm dressed ♫
331
911000
3000
♫ Trec peste moda, vezi cum sunt imbracat ♫
15:29
CL: Okay. So I'm going to stop that there. So what do we see in his brain?
332
914000
3000
CL: Bun. Voi opri aici. Deci, ce vedem la creierul sau?
15:32
Well, this is actually four rappers' brains.
333
917000
2000
Pai, astea sunt de fapt creierele a 4 rap-eri.
15:34
And what we see, we do see language areas lighting up,
334
919000
2000
Iar ce vedem sunt zonele de limbaj ce se aprind.
15:36
but then -- eyes closed --
335
921000
2000
dar apoi -- cu ochii inchisi --
15:38
when you are free-styling versus memorizing,
336
923000
3000
cand se canta liber nu din memorie
15:41
you've got major visual areas lighting up.
337
926000
2000
se aprind zone majore ce tin de vedere.
15:43
You've got major cerebellar activity, which is involved in motor coordination.
338
928000
3000
Activitate cerebrala majora implicata in coordonarea motorie.
15:46
You have heightened brain activity when you're doing a comparable task,
339
931000
3000
Activitatea cerebrala se intensifica daca faceti o treaba similara,
15:49
when that one task is creative and the other task is memorized.
340
934000
3000
cand un procas e creativ iar cealalt e memorat.
15:53
It's very preliminary, but I think it's kind of cool.
341
938000
2000
E studiu preliminar, dar cred ca e chiar fain.
15:55
So just to conclude, we've got a lot of questions to ask,
342
940000
3000
Deci doar pentru a trage concluzii, avem de raspuns la multe intrebari.
15:58
and like I said, we'll ask questions here, not answer them.
343
943000
3000
Si cum am spus, vom pune intrebari, nu vom da raspunsuri.
16:01
But we want to get at the root of what is creative genius, neurologically,
344
946000
3000
Dar, neurologic, vrem sa ajungem la radacinile geniului creativ.
16:04
and I think, with these methods, we're getting close to being there.
345
949000
3000
Si cred, cu aceste metode, ne apropiem.
16:07
And I think hopefully in the next 10, 20 years
346
952000
2000
Sper cu toata nadejdea ca in urmatorii 10, 20 de ani
16:09
you'll actually see real, meaningful studies
347
954000
2000
vom vedea cu adevarat, studii semnificative
16:11
that say science has to catch up to art,
348
956000
4000
ce vor arata ca stiinta trebuie sa prinda din urma arta,
16:15
and maybe we're starting now to get there.
349
960000
2000
si poate acum pornim la drum sa ajungem acolo.
16:17
And so I want to thank you for your time. I appreciate it.
350
962000
2000
Deci va multumesc pentru timpul acordat. Cu recunostinta.
16:19
(Applause)
351
964000
5000
(Aplauze)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Charles Limb - ResearcherCharles Limb is a doctor and a musician who researches the way musical creativity works in the brain.
Why you should listen
Charles Limb is the Francis A. Sooy, MD Professor and Chief of Otology/Neurotology and Skull Base Surgery at the University of California, San Francisco, and he's a Faculty Member at the Peabody Conservatory of Music. He combines his two passions to study the way the brain creates and perceives music. He's a hearing specialist and surgeon at Johns Hopkins who performs cochlear implantations on patients who have lost their hearing. And he plays sax, piano and bass.
In search of a better understanding of how the mind perceives complex auditory stimuli such as music, he's been working with Allen Braun to look at the brains of improvising musicians and study what parts of the brain are involved in the kind of deep creativity that happens when a musician is really in the groove.
Read our Q&A about hip-hop studies with Charles Limb on the TED Blog >>
Plus our quick catchup Q&A at TEDMED 2011 -- including his top 5 songs of all time >>
Read the 2014 paper "Neural Substrates of Interactive Musical Improvisation: An fMRI Study of ‘Trading Fours’ in Jazz" >>
Charles Limb | Speaker | TED.com